US troops kill 46 in foiled ambush

[Vance]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B779F3C6-97F6-488F-8796-BC991D5521BD.htm


US soldiers have killed 46 Iraqis and captured eight in a series of attempted ambushes on US convoys in the central Iraqi city of Samarra, an occupation military spokesman said.


At least 18 attackers, five US soldiers and a civilian travelling with the troops were wounded during Sunday's ambushes.

"The fourth infantry division repelled multiple ambush attacks," Lieutenant Colonel William MacDonald told reporters.

"The attacks were coordinated in locations very close to each other," he said, adding that the ambushes were made on separate US convoys using mortars, grenades and small arms fire. Three buildings, from whose roofs the attackers fired, were destroyed.

Fidayin uniforms

Some of the attackers wore the attire of Fidayin, a militia formed by Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein before US-led forces toppled him earlier this year.

The Fidayin are among the former regime loyalists whom Washington has blamed for rising resistance against the US occupation of Iraq.

"This is the largest (ambush) for our task force since we've been in the area," MacDonald said.

He declined to say whether the coordinated ambushes were linked to attacks on civilian foreign nationals in the Tikrit-Samarra area in the last two days.

Samarra and Tikrit, where the 4th infantry division is based, are located in the centre of Iraq where most attacks on foreign forces and Iraqis cooperating with them have been concentrated.

[ChuckThunder]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B779F3C6-97F6-488F-8796-BC991D5521BD.htm


US soldiers have killed 46 Iraqis and captured eight in a series of attempted ambushes on US convoys in the central Iraqi city of Samarra, an occupation military spokesman said.


At least 18 attackers, five US soldiers and a civilian travelling with the troops were wounded during Sunday's ambushes.

"The fourth infantry division repelled multiple ambush attacks," Lieutenant Colonel William MacDonald told reporters.

"The attacks were coordinated in locations very close to each other," he said, adding that the ambushes were made on separate US convoys using mortars, grenades and small arms fire. Three buildings, from whose roofs the attackers fired, were destroyed.

Fidayin uniforms

Some of the attackers wore the attire of Fidayin, a militia formed by Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein before US-led forces toppled him earlier this year.

The Fidayin are among the former regime loyalists whom Washington has blamed for rising resistance against the US occupation of Iraq.

"This is the largest (ambush) for our task force since we've been in the area," MacDonald said.

He declined to say whether the coordinated ambushes were linked to attacks on civilian foreign nationals in the Tikrit-Samarra area in the last two days.

Samarra and Tikrit, where the 4th infantry division is based, are located in the centre of Iraq where most attacks on foreign forces and Iraqis cooperating with them have been concentrated.

They must have just found out Bush is/was in country... :P

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Ok I hate to piss on everyones parade but Fedayeen is spelt that way not Fidayin...jeeze even al-jazeera cant even get it right thats bad.

[Nizark]

it has been said that this convoy was heavily armed...M1A1's, brad's, apache's, 100 troops...the works. And it was transporting the new iraqi dinar...not a place to eat at, but the new non-saddam currency, and a shetload of it.
46 dead though and mainly fedayeen, IN UNIFORM....sumbitches must have had local support...i mean damn, u think it is hard to not notice a bunch of guys in blackpajamas running around? MOAB TEST!!!

[Ratamacue]

Ok I hate to piss on everyones parade but Fedayeen is spelt that way not Fidayin...jeeze even al-jazeera cant even get it right thats bad.

I hate to piss on your parade, but because Arabic uses a totally seperate alphabet, there is no "correct" way of spelling words. Fedayeen, Fidayin, they both can be ****ounced the same way.

[Guttorm]

http://www.vg.no/bilder/bildarkiv/1070231812.jpg

Not sure if you've seen it... It was in a norwegian webpage, about this episode.

[Roger Rabbit]

Bradley fighting vehicles responded with 120mm tank rounds and 25mm cannon fire, destroying three buildings in the city, he said.

So err the BBC, they erm have found some Bradley's with 120mm tank rounds? Tell me they have made a mistake.

[Ratamacue]

They probably meant that Abrams responded with 120mm cannons and Bradleys with 25mm fire.

[Roger Rabbit]

Yeah i was thinking along the same lines, just wanted to check it out.

This is good news but i would like more info especially on whether there were any civilian casualties apart from the 1 wounded. If there aren't or there are only a few then this is a well deserved victory for the Americans.

Bringing Vietnam into this then does anybody see a corelation. When the enemy forces are drawn out into the open then they are crushed with superior firepower. Similar to Hue. Obviously nowhere near the same scale but the same idea. Lets just hope the enemy does not adapt and launches a few more large scale attacks that end in a similar manner.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

What enemy they are all dead or wounded or captured...whoever was in command must be sh*ting there pants.

[jdbjdb]

Any pictures or video of this foiled ambush?

[hood]

It's interesting to see that cnn and foxnews' websites as of right now, just mention how the US troops fended off the Fedayeen and killed 46 of them, and wounded lots more. Al Jazeera on the otherhand has the headline of 'US admits to innocent civilian bloodbath' and only talk very briefly of the fact that they were attacked in a big way.

[cut]

It's interesting to see that cnn and foxnews' websites as of right now, just mention how the US troops fended off the Fedayeen and killed 46 of them, and wounded lots more. Al Jazeera on the otherhand has the headline of 'US admits to innocent civilian bloodbath' and only talk very briefly of the fact that they were attacked in a big way.

I'd take both a bit of both into consideration..

[usa320]

i heard 46 hostiles killed, 1 civilian wounded, 5 US wounded, and i reckon 29 Fedayeen captured.

[hood]

Seeing as all of the facts came from an associated press submission, how is it that aljazeera sees tons of innocent civvies dead, and cnn only sees 1?

[Salty Dog]

it's nice to hear about something like this after seeing and hearing about american soldiers dying, not to mention those spanish intel guys being killed and danced upon.

[cut]

Seeing as all of the facts came from an associated press submission, how is it that aljazeera sees tons of innocent civvies dead, and cnn only sees 1?

al jazeera says "innocents were killed" I havn't found any mention of tons.. the BBC says two of the factory workers were killed and "many"* others injured by one of the tank shells.


*word used by Lieutenant Colonel Bill MacDonald in relation to wounded factory workers

news.com.au has also got an article on it

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8028760%255E1702,00.html

[NcDeuce]

It is about time the media reports a success story...or were they trying to imply something else???

Good job on the troops' part, keep kickin' ass! woot

[fantassin]

New death toll announced this morning on the radio (from US Army sources apparently): 8 killed, 60 odd wounded, not 46 as initially announced.

[Kingpin]

It's time to announce that troops take over Umm-Qasr... again... :)

[16 OBr SpN]

IMHO, it's not about casualties.

The alarming fact is that Fedayeen are feeling comfortable to mount large attacks, and are growing bolder. Although it was the dumbest thing to do - concentrating people in one spot against an enemy with far more firepower and air support.

As far as I know, Saddam's Fedayeen and Republican Guard numbered more than 100K. So this is still a quite considerable force. If they properly use their advantages, they can become a big problem for the US forces.

[JF45]

Latest statement released half an hour ago has changed the number killed. It's now at 54.

[Kingpin]

IMHO, it's not about casualties.

The alarming fact is that Fedayeen are feeling comfortable to mount large attacks, and are growing bolder. Although it was the dumbest thing to do - concentrating people in one spot against an enemy with far more firepower and air support.

As far as I know, Saddam's Fedayeen and Republican Guard numbered more than 100K. So this is still a quite considerable force. If they properly use their advantages, they can become a big problem for the US forces.


Да они в ГРУ там все безбашненные. С одним ихним полковником общаюсь по делам бизнеса, так он при каждой встрече ухаживать начинает с вопроса: девушка, вы в какой позе сексом предпочитаете заниматься?

That was kinda lyrics.

What do you think about ability of resistance to make some real troubles for US forces?

Pros:
1. A lot of weapon caches around
2. Support of local population in some areas
3. Money and weapon supply from foreigh supporters
4. Good organisation

Cons:
1. Plain terrain mostly deserted which is very difficult to use in guerilla operations.
2. Inshah Allakh principle as basis for failure in every action which requires initiative and leadership.
3. Bad training
4. Active countermeasures from US forces

[The Walrus]

Why would they be wearing uniforms? You'd think that it would be awful stupid to put the equivelant of a -->guerrila here<-- sign on your back.
Apart from that I take my hat off to the US forces for repelling a surprise co-ordinated ambush, keep up the good work ;)

[16 OBr SpN]

Да они в ГРУ там все безбашненные. С одним ихним полковником общаюсь по делам бизнеса, так он при каждой встрече ухаживать начинает с вопроса: девушка, вы в какой позе сексом предпочитаете заниматься?

That was kinda lyrics.

What do you think about ability of resistance to make some real troubles for US forces?

Pros:
1. A lot of weapon caches around
2. Support of local population in some areas
3. Money and weapon supply from foreigh supporters
4. Good organisation

Cons:
1. Plain terrain mostly deserted which is very difficult to use in guerilla operations.
2. Inshah Allakh principle as basis for failure in every action which requires initiative and leadership.
3. Bad training
4. Active countermeasures from US forces

Actually, urban terrain is a great theater for guerilla warfare.

So far I noticed several things about Iraqi resistance and their possible tactics.

1) High mobility.

2) They have good information sources.

3) Attacks on communication and supply lines. If they keep on using "bothering" attacks on the US communications it will require lots of resources from the American generals. Although, I think and hope Americans are not that stupid to move their columns without proper cover. But still, providing cover for each and every column consumes a lot of resources.

4) I would say they enjoy the support in most of the areas. I remember watching a video on ******* where they were showing aftermath of the attack on the Italians. That area was considered as being friendly towards the occupation forces. But in that video, the crowd standing in the background was chanting "La Illahah Illa Allah". They say it when they are happy about something, just like "Allahu Akbar".

5) Snipers. Period. I'm surprised they haven't used them at all. Its not only about inflicting casualties, but also giving a psychological blow to the Americans. Professional snipers in the city = big trouble.

6) Explosives. So far, Iraqis thankfully, are not diversifying their methods. But they learn very fast. They have lots of MON-50's and MON-100's. These are very efficient mines, and can be used in variety of ways.

7) The rocket attacks with mobile launch pads (pickups; wagons).

8) Machineguns on the back seats of the cars with tinted windows. Efficient for drive-by shootings.

9) RPG's. No comments.

I don't think money comes from the foreign nations. They have a strong financial backing. Maybe that's the money which was taken from the bank before the war started?

Foreign fighters? I don't know. Although in some cases, I see parallels with the chechen tactics.

Americans' options are narrow. They don't have the initiative, it is always on the side of guerillas.
As I said before, they need:

1) Sappers and dogs. Many of them.

2) Intelligence, both human and signal.

3) Highly mobile units. Use of the soldiers with the arabic appearance and clothes.

4) Ambushes, and raids. Cleaning up. Doing everything to make guerillas lose their maneuverability.

5) Night recon of main roads and highways with helicopters carrying 6-8 men groups.

6) Possibly around the clock video surveillance. Put small cameras with night and thermal capabilities secretly on the rooftops in especially unstable cities. Keep a quick response team on alert with maximum of 10 minutes of arrival.

I'm almost sure Americans are using these tactics. But again these are only to achieve tactical goals, as for strategic ones, it's hard to say, because the damn big politics is mixed here.
The more politicians stick their damn noses, the more messed up it becomes.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

P.S. Как фамилия того полковника из "конторы"? Случаем не Рябцев? :)

[Kingpin]

5) Snipers. Period. I'm surprised they haven't used them at all. Its not only about inflicting casualties, but also giving a psychological blow to the Americans. Professional snipers in the city = big trouble.
P.S. Как фамилия того полковника из "конторы"? Случаем не Рябцев? :)

As for snipers - the only "confirmed" death of Abrams tankers was due to sniper - he (she) killed driver when tanks was passing one of canals. As result tank sunk.

Фамилию я не стал уточнять сразу, а теперь пожалуй и не удобно уже. :)

Edit: уточнил - говорит нет. ;)

[duck]

As for snipers, I think counter-sniper operations belong to the category that is not made public.

AP has news on the battle:


U.S. Says 54 Iraqis Killed in Samarra


By SABAH JERGES, Associated Press Writer

SAMARRA, Iraq - The U.S. military said 54 Iraqis were killed in the northern city of Samarra as U.S. forces used tanks and cannons to fight their way out of simultaneous ambushes. But residents said Monday that the casualty figure was much lower and that the dead were mostly civilians.

By the American account, Sunday's fighting was the bloodiest combat reported since the fall of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s regime in a U.S.-led invasion.

A U.S. military spokesman said attackers, many wearing uniforms of Saddam's Fedayeen paramilitary force, struck at two U.S. convoys at opposite sides of Samarra, 60 miles north of Baghdad.

The scars of the battle were evident on Monday. About a dozen cars lay destroyed in the streets, many apparently crushed by tanks, and bullet holes pocked many buildings. A rowdy crowd gathered at one spot, chanting pro-Saddam slogans. One man fired warning shots in the air when journalists arrived at the scene.

Many residents said Saddam loyalists attacked the Americans, but that when U.S. forces began firing at random, many civilians got their guns and joined the fight. Many said residents were bitter about recent U.S. raids in the night.

"Why do they arrest people when they're in their homes?" asked Athir Abdul Salam, a 19-year-old student. "They come at night to arrest people. So what do they expect those people to do?"

"Civilians shot back at the Americans," said 30-year-old Ali Hassan, who was wounded by shrapnel in the battle. "They claim we are terrorists. So OK, we are terrorists. What do they expect when they drive among us?"

Many residents said the Americans opened fire at random when they came under attack, and targeted civilian installations. Six destroyed vehicles sat in front of the hospital, where witnesses said U.S. tanks shelled people dropping off the injured. A kindergarten was damaged, apparently by tank shells. No children were hurt.

"Luckily we evacuated the children five minutes before we came under attack," said Ibrahim Jassim, a 40-year-old guard at the kindergarten. "Why did they attack randomly? Why did they shoot a kindergarten with tank shells?"

Lt. Col. William MacDonald of the 4th Infantry Division said that after barricading a road, attackers opened fire from rooftops and alleyways with bombs, small arms, mortars and rocket-propelled grenades.

U.S. troops responded with 120mm tank rounds and 25mm cannon fire from Bradley fighting vehicles, he said.

"It sounds like the attack had some coordination to it, but the soldiers responded, used their firepower, used tank and Bradley fire and other weapons available to them, to stop this attack and take the fight to the enemy," he said.

MacDonald said the attack was the largest faced by his Task Force Ironhorse, whose mission includes the hunt for Saddam. Military officials in Baghdad said they haven't reported a deadlier attack since May 1, when President Bush (news - web sites) declared major combat over. U.S. officials have only sporadically released figures on Iraqi casualties, and wouldn't say whether there has been a deadlier firefight that went unreported.

The U.S. military initially said 46 Iraqi fighters died and five American soldiers were injured. But a statement on Monday raised the Iraqi dead to 54.

Residents of Samarra disputed those figures, saying at most eight or nine people died. Three bodies lay in the hospital morgue. There was no way to reconcile the accounts.

The scale of the attack and the apparent coordination of the two operations showed that rebel units retain the ability to conduct synchronized operations despite a massive U.S. offensive this month aimed at crushing the insurgency.

[NcDeuce]

U.S. Troops Say Kill 46 in Fierce Iraq Battle

By Khudair Majeed

SAMARRA, Iraq (*******) - American troops killed 46 guerrillas in a fierce battle to fight off coordinated ambushes on convoys delivering money to banks in the tense Iraqi town of Samarra, the U.S. military said on Monday.

But there was confusion over the true death toll and, among some, skepticism over the figures given by the U.S. military.

Doctors at the town's hospital said they knew of only six people killed in the firefight that raged for most of Sunday afternoon in Samarra, 100 km (62 miles) north of Baghdad. Police put the toll at eight, including an Iranian pilgrim.

But Colonel Frederick Rudesheim, commander of the U.S. 4th Infantry Division's 3rd Brigade Combat Team, said the testimony of those involved in the battle suggested 46 attackers were killed. The Army had earlier said the death toll was 54.

"I caution you again, the adversary we face in this area will not bring all the casualties to the local hospitals," Rudesheim told reporters at the U.S. base in Samarra.

Rudesheim said some of the attackers wore the black clothing and headscarves of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s feared Fedayeen militia. He said 11 guerrillas were captured and were being questioned.

Several burned-out cars littered the streets of the town, a hotbed of anti-U.S. anger, and dried blood stained the dust outside one mosque.

A series of guerrilla ambushes across Iraq (news - web sites) at the weekend also killed seven Spanish intelligence agents, two South Korean contractors, two Japanese diplomats and their Iraqi driver, a Colombian contractor and two U.S. soldiers.

The bloodshed -- and grisly photographs showing Iraqis kicking the corpses of the dead Spanish agents -- fueled debate in countries allied to Washington on the risks of getting involved in the mission to stabilize and rebuild Iraq.

The violence underscored the growing audacity of guerrillas in Iraq -- and the tougher tactics the U.S. Army has adopted in response. Since President Bush (news - web sites) declared major combat over on May 1, 187 U.S. soldiers have been killed in action.

November was the deadliest month for American troops since the start of the war to oust Saddam, with at least 74 killed in action. Occupying forces also suffered their deadliest single attack during the month, a car bombing in the southern town of Nassiriya that killed 19 Italians and nine Iraqis.

[16 OBr SpN]

I don't know, but personally I find this whole talk by the US generals to be a little questionnable.

1) 5 slightly wounded soldiers? All after explosion of several IEDs + fire by the RPG's and small arms and supposedly 60 fighters shooting at them!? Excuse me, but personally I don't buy it. Hopefully I'm wrong.

2) OK, let's assume I'm a Fedayeen sitting on top of the roof. I see a convoy which is backed by tanks and APC's, and most importantly with air support on a short notice. Do I attack them? No! Unless I'm 100% positive that I'll take out the tank and APC, and have at least two people with SA-7 missiles to use against incoming choppers!
Besides, I won't position my people on top of the roof! Because when a tank evades from the RPG barrage, guess where it slams/fires... the very same building I'm firing from. Do I wan't to be sitting on top of a mass grave? No. :) Besides, I want to make sure that the tank is inside the "fire bag" so that it doesn't use its firepower.

3) Another thing which really sounds funny is Fedayeen supposedly set up barricades against tanks. What kind of ambush is that!? They might as well put a big yellow sign saying "Ambush" :)

5) Guerillas wearing black Fedayeen uniform?? :lol: They might as well wear "Fedayeen #..." jerseys. :lol: Interesting. It's all in a city with an american base and heavy presence of troops. Sorry I don't buy it.

6) Let's say 60 guerillas sit in the ambush. Lets say 30 of them have RPG's. Did they all miss? Lets say there is 6-7 cars in the convoy. That makes it roughly 4 grenades per each car. Convoy is standing and they miss. They probably shot RPG's in the air? :) Or maybe there wasn't any ambush at all...??

Here is my version of what happened.
Convoy passes by. 2-3 guerillas blow up explosives and fire couple of RPG's. Americans start shooting in all directions. Locals grab their weapons and shoot americans from their houses in response. American tanks slam into the buildings destroying everyone inside. They ride over the parked cars. I guess they were "barricades" against tanks! :)

Later, the story of the ambush and fierce firefight with "Saddam Fedayeen" comes up. Good guys win, bad guys lose. Typical scenario a-la Jessica Lynch.

[Seraphim]

Like the article said, not all of them are wearing uniforms.

Oh and your version is :bash:

[Russian Texan]

Like the article said, not all of them are wearing uniforms.

Oh and your version is :bash:

Is that because it is not an official version and doesn't make americans look as good :) ?

[16 OBr SpN]

Like the article said, not all of them are wearing uniforms.

Oh and your version is :bash:

Even if only 3 wore a Fedayeen uniform prior to the attack, that's already enough to blow the whole "ambush"! Unless they put it on during the attack! :)

If you don't like my version, why don't you give me yours.

I'm basing my judgement strictly on my experience and knowledge.

[Kitsune]

If this is a lie it is at least a plausible sounding one. Americans HAVE a reputation for exactly this kind of behaviour. Where this reputation comes from or wether it is justified at all is another matter. But it is there.
Ask the British, the French, the Germans, the Italians...in all cases there is the strong belief (or prejudice) that Americans are ****e to firing wildly around...

In the end we have to wait. American armed forces are as eager to present this thing as a success as Anti-Americans want to portait it as senseless slaughter of innocents. Until someone really neutral researches the truth what has happened there is a matter of belief.

At least Al Jasira has succesfully spoiled the American victory trumpet. Wether true or not...doubt overshadows this thing now.


:(

[16 OBr SpN]

Kitsune,

You see, on the one hand you gotta understand the Americans. They are moving in the column inside "Sunni Triangle". Of course, they might get itchy triggers.
Believe me, when an explosive blows up next to you, the last thing you think about is where the attackers are. You are deaf, and disoriented, and you have to suppress the possible enemy positions with large volume of fire. That was the case today. That's the danger of every guerilla conflict.

Americans, again made a quick story about a "fierce battle". But they didn't think that people who know something about war will figure that it's all pure BS.
Later we will be hearing many corrections, just like in case with Lynch.

[Kingpin]

Like the article said, not all of them are wearing uniforms.
Oh and your version is :bash:

What's bad with his version? This man has 18 years military experience in such hot spots as Afganistan, Tajikistan, Chechnya. Passed a lot of training concerning querillas tactics and US tactics. If he have questions this means that there are really some questions exists.

[Kitsune]

sorry I misplaced my post...

Ups :oops:

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

16 OBr SpN's version sounds about right. People must really hate Americans when theres an ambush going on, they are not involved, but still grab guns and try to kill Americans. Thats a slight problem guys dont ya think?

[California Joe]

What some would call "firing wildly" others would call "making use of superior firepower" Or bringing a gun to a knife fight to paraphrase Sean Connery playing an Irish cop....

Between the Marines, Army and assorted Ghilles we have more than adequate counter snipers.....

[hood]

Taking out 46 Iraqi's using only their thumbs... again paraphrasing Sean Connery playing an Irish cop....

[16 OBr SpN]

Some more observations:

1) OK guys, the other thing which I find hard to believe is the number of the Iraqis supposedly killed by the Americans.
57 people - that's too much . It's too many people to set up an ambush. Besides, that many people will get easily noticed by column's recon group. Send a small recon group on the column's path (5-10 minutes before), in order to know in advance of any suspicious activity. Sometimes recon groups can be mistakenly attacked from an ambush thus saving the main column from the attack. Was there any prior recon of the road before they moved the column? If yes, HOW the hell do you not notice 60 people on the path of the column!? Besides, Americans say some of them were in Fedayeen Uniform! :lol:

2) Supposedly the firefight went on for half day! Guys believe me, when you are setting an ambush, you never put a goal of keeping a long firefight with the enemy, because once the element of surprise is gone, you stand no chance against an enemy with far greater firepower.

3) When you are setting up an ambush, planning your escape route is as important as setting a correct position! You have to engage the enemy very swiftly and disengage even faster by using a safe escape route. In our case it seems as if an "ambush" was set up by a bunch of retards from the mental institution! :lol:

Anyway, Pentagon again went too far with its lies!

American soldiers who took part in this battle should all write books and memoirs after this! :lol: I bet the tank driver will be the first one waving his script! :lol:

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[zipper]

News never get it completely right. Wish we could go to the source.


Nice Avatar Kingpin! What is that Gomer Pile Goes to Russia? :lol:

[Argyll]

Some good observations there from 16 OBr SpN

My observations from this incident

1.The No.of Kills ot Rounds fired is somewhere in the 1000's per kill,which would mean a lot of rounds expended in the Anti Ambush drills
From what I can also gather is that there were ambush points on both sides of the bank,would this not mean them firing into each other?Having had some success in the past,why would these ambushers employ a tactic that is fundamentaly flawed?Anyone here who has served and is serving will know that KISS,is the buzzword.
2.The duration of the firefight also seems to be way too long,even anti ambush drills will teach you either to fight into it or withdraw rapidly,given that there were Armoured elements within the convoy,the troops would have had to debuss to fight into the ambush,but this appears not to be the case,but rather the ambushers were continuing to rush an Armoured convoy,I'm pretty sure that within the 1st 5 mins of the contact they would know they were facing heavy armour,and that they would not be able to inflict casualties or damage,and that exfil from the ambush and reorging would have been a better option
3.As for the comments about this ambush being set up by retards from an instituition I can assure you all the British Government had nothing to do with this at all rofl !!

[Skaman]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B779F3C6-97F6-488F-8796-BC991D5521BD.htm


US soldiers have killed 46 Iraqis and captured eight in a series of attempted ambushes on US convoys in the central Iraqi city of Samarra, an occupation military spokesman said.


At least 18 attackers, five US soldiers and a civilian travelling with the troops were wounded during Sunday's ambushes.

"The fourth infantry division repelled multiple ambush attacks," Lieutenant Colonel William MacDonald told reporters.

"The attacks were coordinated in locations very close to each other," he said, adding that the ambushes were made on separate US convoys using mortars, grenades and small arms fire. Three buildings, from whose roofs the attackers fired, were destroyed.

Fidayin uniforms

Some of the attackers wore the attire of Fidayin, a militia formed by Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein before US-led forces toppled him earlier this year.

The Fidayin are among the former regime loyalists whom Washington has blamed for rising resistance against the US occupation of Iraq.

"This is the largest (ambush) for our task force since we've been in the area," MacDonald said.

He declined to say whether the coordinated ambushes were linked to attacks on civilian foreign nationals in the Tikrit-Samarra area in the last two days.

Samarra and Tikrit, where the 4th infantry division is based, are located in the centre of Iraq where most attacks on foreign forces and Iraqis cooperating with them have been concentrated.

Shouldn’t we be proud.... :roll:

[koster]

I agree, 57 people is BS, just like 16 OBr said. You will rarely need 5-15 people, if you want to ambush/burn a column, 2 or 3 RPG's a couple of mines, and a sniper or a machinegunner to provide a cover fire for the rest of the team/group is enough. But its just stupid to attack a column with armor, and air support with 57 people, and stay there for a whole day, its a suicide. Those people must've been retarded, or the "good" Americans made it all up.

[16 OBr SpN]

This is getting better and better! :)

I just saw this video on *******, with an interview from American soldier. When asked why they reported 54 casualties when only 3 bodies were found, the soldier said they got those figures from the soldiers on the field who could clearly see the effects of their aimed fire :lol:

Let's imagine, I'm a soldier caught right in the middle of an ambush by 40 people and I'm being fired from AK's, RPG's, and mortars. It's all on the city street with no better cover than behind the armor or around the corners. Grenades exploding, shrapnel flying, bullets whistling... and I'm sitting there and counting people I supposedly hit! :) Or does he hear HEADSHOT!! (like in the game my son loves to play) :lol:

I guess the only order their commander gave them was "Make sure you count your kills!" :lol:

People who been in the intensive firefight know what I'm talking about. How about asking American soldiers who were in Somalia about their kill record? I'm sure they'll laugh at your face!

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[zipper]

The news never gets it right. At lest the first time. Is it that they want to get the story out so fast that they forget to actually look in to the story and confirm their reports? MAYBE. I don't believe any story till I check it out. I would get fired for reporting the wrong info the first time. Or that would make me a non-creditable person.
:bash:

[16 OBr SpN]

The news never gets it right. At lest the first time. Is it that they want to get the story out so fast that they forget to actually look in to the story and confirm their reports? MAYBE. I don't believe any story till I check it out. I would get fired for reporting the wrong info the first time. Or that would make me a non-creditable person.
:bash:

But the issue is, there are no comments from the journallists. This is stated by the US soldier who gives a short press briefing.

Go see for yourself at: www.*******.com

[16 OBr SpN]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/01/cnna.jones/index.html

"...And I estimated that about an hour and a half, two hours, is what I would just estimate."

- Now it came down to an hour and a half firefight. :)


"O'BRIEN: Tell me a little bit about any civilians. I heard and read that there was a barricade blocking off the streets. Did it seem to you that there were no civilians around? Did that seem surprising to you?

JONES: Well, what they attempted to do -- and we don't know if it's actually civilians. I called them all terrorists. If they're blocking the streets or if they're attempting to block the streets, then obviously they're not a civilian. They're some sort of combatant... These guys were trying to throw vehicles in the way, taxi cabs, a couple of white pickup trucks and everything, to actually block the roads as we tried to egress out with the convoy."

- Finally it came down to Americans actually fighting the "civilians", instead of "black uniformed Fedayeen". :)

Like I said, end result - 3 Iraqis and unknown number of Americans dead. NOT 56.
I'm willing to bet - at least 3-4 American cars were blasted. Guerillas quitely took off, and Americans started blasting everything around in revenge.

[Trigger]

Excellent debate guys.
...but what's this?:




Shouldn’t we be proud.... :roll:
Dude, STFU and go back to your gay bukkake festival. You have no business in this discussion.

Carry on gents.

[The Walrus]

It seems to me that the US would have a motive for exaguratting the kills in order to close off the worst month for coalition troops on a victorious note, I mean if this victory were not to have happened all the news would be about how bad a month November has been for the coalition forces.
And again, why would the guerillas be wearing uniforms???
Wouldn't that ruin the element of surprise/confusion a little if they labelled themselves as targets.

[Kingpin]

It seems to me that the US would have a motive for exaguratting the kills in order to close off the worst month for coalition troops on a victorious note, I mean if this victory were not to have happened all the news would be about how bad a month November has been for the coalition forces.
And again, why would the guerillas be wearing uniforms???
Wouldn't that ruin the element of surprise/confusion a little if they labelled themselves as targets.

Excellent! You're right - that happened (if happened) in last day of november and 1st December nobody wrote about losses last month. There may be some sense in releasing this heroic history.

And note a lot of details: 3 houses, 46 killed, 8 captured, 7 wounded GIs, fedayeen uniforms, dinars, barricades and so on. And no any word about how it was really happened. A lot of controversy. That was just "official fog".

[Red]

It seems to me that the US would have a motive for exaguratting the kills in order to close off the worst month for coalition troops on a victorious note, I mean if this victory were not to have happened all the news would be about how bad a month November has been for the coalition forces.
And again, why would the guerillas be wearing uniforms???
Wouldn't that ruin the element of surprise/confusion a little if they labelled themselves as targets.
shut the hell up you dirty wombat

[Argyll]

Benibo
Are you in the military or have any military experience?
Did you see scores and scores of dead Iraqi's laid out after this engagement?
Did you see the weapons recovered?
Did you see the uniforms that were removed from the dead?
Well as an ex military man I would like to see the truth laid out for all to see,otherwise this is spin and propaganda,and it is no worse than the slatings that other media networks have been getting!!
Call it being cynical but last month was a nightmare for the Coalition and this is a surefire way of addressing the negatives,remember the "rescue" of Lynch,that came when things were not going so well according to various media outlets,they ALL cannot be wrong.!!
Unless you can offer constructive views,I'd suggest you take your foot out of your mouth!!
By the way a wombat is from Austrailia,Walrus is from England,perhaps a geography lesson might be in order!!?
Read what 16 OBr SPn has to say,what he paints is a far more realistic picture!.
before you say STFU and that I wasn't there,that's true,but neither were you,and neither were the press!!...............no bodies,weapons or uniforms then no truth!!!

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Interesting to hear so many supposed experts pontificating about what really happened during this contact when, do correct me if i'm wrong, none of you were actually on the ground in the AO that day.

But thats okay because your ability to surf the net and find a media slant that agrees with your personal bias more than makes up for that rather inconsequential detail.

Oh, and yes I suppose prior service in Afghanistan, chechnya, etc would qualify you to comment on how it feels to be part of a reppresive regime hell-bent on forcing a country of independently minded people to follow your ideology or pay the consequences.

But you shouldn't take your experiences and those of your countrys and try to draw parallels with the American efforts in Iraq. It just looks like sour grapes.

But hey, what you say and how that makes you look is completely up to you.........

[Red]

Benibo
Are you in the military or have any military experience?
Did you see scores and scores of dead Iraqi's laid out after this engagement?
Did you see the weapons recovered?
Did you see the uniforms that were removed from the dead?
Well as an ex military man I would like to see the truth laid out for all to see,otherwise this is spin and propaganda,and it is no worse than the slatings that other media networks have been getting!!
Call it being cynical but last month was a nightmare for the Coalition and this is a surefire way of addressing the negatives,remember the "rescue" of Lynch,that came when things were not going so well according to various media outlets,they ALL cannot be wrong.!!
Unless you can offer constructive views,I'd suggest you take your foot out of your mouth!!
By the way a wombat is from Austrailia,Walrus is from England,perhaps a geography lesson might be in order!!?
Read what 16 OBr SPn has to say,what he paints is a far more realistic picture!.
before you say STFU and that I wasn't there,that's true,but neither were you,and neither were the press!!...............no bodies,weapons or uniforms then no truth!!!
And why do you think i will say STFU?no contrary to your opinion,i wont.Yes i have had millitary experience,funny enough i have been through some dicey situations.But let me tell you this when i called him a wombat i was only trying to call him something i have not heard someone use before,dude i have education and yes i do know geography.Look,i never said i believed the pentagon reports on the thing that happened neither do i believe the media.i know that yes some innocents will be among the dead,but that is war.people get killled.i am just trying to say before u slam the US wait and get all the facts straight.And dont worry cause i dont swear so i wont ever say STFU. :hug:

[Argyll]

And what makes you the expert then?

and I'll ask you the same thing

Did you see the bodies?
Did you see the display of captured Weapons?
Did you see the Uniforms depicting fedayeen?


Oh, and yes I suppose prior service in Afghanistan, chechnya, etc would qualify you to comment on how it feels to be part of a reppresive regime hell-bent on forcing a country of independently minded people to follow your ideology or pay the consequences.


have you ever been in a firefight where you have incoming?
Ambush drills and Anti Ambush drills are pretty similar WORLD wide !

I am not disputing what happened,I feel that given my own experiences in a situation similar to that that ,these numbers of KIA appear to be grossly exagerated,it would be smashing if it were the truth,but I'm open minded about this,and unless you got some information you can share with us,then you should be too!!

[96B]

Interesting to hear so many supposed experts pontificating about what really happened during this contact when, do correct me if i'm wrong, none of you were actually on the ground in the AO that day.

But thats okay because your ability to surf the net and find a media slant that agrees with your personal bias more than makes up for that rather inconsequential detail.

Oh, and yes I suppose prior service in Afghanistan, chechnya, etc would qualify you to comment on how it feels to be part of a reppresive regime hell-bent on forcing a country of independently minded people to follow your ideology or pay the consequences.

But you shouldn't take your experiences and those of your countrys and try to draw parallels with the American efforts in Iraq. It just looks like sour grapes.

But hey, what you say and how that makes you look is completely up to you.........

Amen to that. I could not have said it better myself.

I suppose the experts on here are much more enlightened on what occured than the actual soldiers who were there. I love how when anything positive is reported it is automatically 1. American propaganda or 2. Intentionally surrounded by bad news. But of course when Al Jazeera reports something we should listen to what they have to say but anything CNN or Fox News says is always a lie.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

And what makes you the expert then?

Don't recall saying I was.


Did you see the bodies?
Did you see the display of captured Weapons?
Did you see the Uniforms depicting fedayeen?

No, which is why I wrote,


do correct me if i'm wrong, none of you were actually on the ground in the AO that day.


have you ever been in a firefight where you have incoming?

Yes.



Ambush drills and Anti Ambush drills are pretty similar WORLD wide !

Do you know this for a fact or are you just supposing?. Have you trained in ambush or anti-ambush drills with ALL the WORLDS armed forces?.

I feel that given my own experiences in a situation similar to that that

Are you saying you've been involved in an ambush/contact thats lasted several hours during which your inf/Armed convoy was ambushed by between 8-57;
a. terrorists
b. freedom fighters
c. insurgents
d. innocent civilians
e. all of the above
Is that what you are saying?.

[/quote]unless you got some information you can share with us,then you should be too!![quote]

The only men with information about this incident remotely close to the 'truth' as you so quaintly put it are those who were there, on the day, on the ground, in the thick of it.

And from MY experience you'll be lucky if you can find two of them whose recollections about what occured that day match word for word. Even the distance of a few metres can put a completely different perspective on what one guy sees compared to another.

What Corp/trade were you Argyll?.

[The Walrus]

shut the hell up you dirty wombat

Wombat? pah! The wombat will tremble before the majesty of my mighty tusks. Besides, I would be more insulted if you called me a Koala, those are vicious bastards.

[Argyll]

Ngati wrote

Are you saying you've been involved in an ambush/contact thats lasted several hours during which your inf/Armed convoy was ambushed by between 8-57;
a. terrorists
b. freedom fighters
c. insurgents
d. innocent civilians
e. all of the above
Is that what you are saying?.


Thats what I am saying yes!

In 1980 when I was in NI we were on an Operation where our Coy was dug in guarding a supply route when at Dusk we were engaged by up to an estimated 10 man ASU of the PIRA,the firefight lasted I guess around the 45-60 min mark,where we ,and the Para COP expended around 8000 rounds of ammo,and no hits were claimed!,to make matters worse this happened when they engaged from the South,under our ROE we were not supposed to return fire,but hey when the rounds are churning up the ground around you ,you return fire,to complicate matters the Para's had their COP fire M79 rounds over our position,along with small arms,as to which we had no prior knowledge to their location!!.
During the day they had fired teaser shots at us to see the reaction they would get,seeing as we never returned fire,they thought we were an easy touch!Also the distances of the engagement was probaly in excess of 400-500 m,so the chances of accurate return fire are about zero!!

US and UK Ambush and Anti Ambush drills are very similar,both using each others experiences!!

And you are correct in stating that no two accounts on the ground will be the same,so with that don't you think that having an open mind as to waht happened is more relevant ?

Like I said too,Ngati given such a large KIA estimate,without seeing the bodies just makes guys like me ask the questions I do,I would love for this incident to be true,but I am deeply sceptical of anything the Military/Media have to say,the fact that these figs were banded by the Military mean squat without independant verification!
The fact that the USArmy has repeatedly said we don't do body counts,but hey here we have what appeared to be the greatest KIA rate in one area than what happened during the entire ground war,after a really terrible month for the coalition!!
In most engagements prior to this there were pics of recovered weapons and items of clothing,but given the significance of this particular engagement there has been nothing so far.

I personally will keep an open mind on this,but I am not the only one who see's some "irregularities" here.Like I said Fantastic if it turns out to be true!!

Oh nearly forgot I was Infantry!!

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Having an open mind is certainly relevent, but it is also necessary to resist the temptation to generalise about a given event.
You could take any incident, be it a contact, ambush or raid during OIF and find 'irregularities'.
Facts will only appear in any quantity after a thorough and complete investigation/after-action review and they don't get completed within minutes or hours of an incident of this magnitude taking place.
So trying to string disparate and incomplete information together to construct a coherent story within hours or even days of an incident taking place and then casting doubt or ridicule upon the so called facts is really no better than being a 'monday morning quarter-back'.
Are people going to lie or manipulate the truth?, of course they will its human nature, especially in times of war. But we must also take into account the 'fog of war' as well .
You've probably played the game chinese whispers before, we use it to train our young soldiers in hand signals. Its extremely interesting to watch even a simple message get butchered and twisted incoherently as it gets passed from man to man. They almost never get it right the first couple of times and thats between a nine man rifle section.
Add in all the disparate hands and heads, military and civilian, biased and unbiased, friendly and enemy that information must pass through before it gets to us and is it any wonder the information at times doesn't make sense?.
We know that military's around the world are sometimes (or even often), ahem... 'innovative' with the truth' but then so are MANY media outlets.

It will probably be a while before the 'truth', such as it is, comes to light.

[Argyll]

I agree there Ngati,but this version came direct from the military that took part in that engagement!!,suffice to say that they should not have been quick to produce the KIA's from that engagement without verification ,rather than take a squaddies word that he dropped 5 or 6 bad guys!!
It was the same stuff during the war,CENTCOM would report something only for the press to report something completely different!!.
Unless the independant media can confirm that indeed 54 Insurgents have been killed as they have seen all the bodies,and the captured weapons,then why should we believe that a spectacular victory took place,after the bloodiest month in Iraq so far?
As for being a monday morning quarter back,that term means **** to me I'm Scottish,but I'll tell you this,its better to tell some form of truth rather than have the whole thing blow up in your face later!!
Youve admitted it yourself that people will lie,and manipulate the truth,but you have to take into account the fog of war hell yes!!That's why it would have been better to have reported a major firefight,and that there appeared to be "significant " casualties on the enemies side,rather than put figures on it.
Now you're also saying that it will take days to figure out the truth,well that's crap,if during a firefight you say you have killed X amount of enemy,then come 1st light or after securing the area ,you sweep the area and sanitise it with friendlies,then you'll know pretty quickly the casualty count!!.
So what were your experiences then?

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

but this version came direct from the military that took part in that engagement!!,suffice to say that they should not have been quick to produce the KIA's from that engagement without verification ,rather than take a squaddies word that he dropped 5 or 6 bad guys!!

I agree.




Unless the independant media

Who are they exactly?. In my experience theres no such thing. But maybe they're out there and I just haven't come across them yet.


monday morning quarter back

Chairborne warrior, etc.


Now you're also saying that it will take days to figure out the truth,well that's crap,if during a firefight you say you have killed X amount of enemy,then come 1st light or after securing the area ,you sweep the area and sanitise it with friendlies,then you'll know pretty quickly the casualty count!!.


No Argyll it's not 'crap'. What was the force structure of the convoy?. Military Police and Armor I believe. Would they have been able to have secured the contact/ambush sites and continue protecting the convoy and conduct battlefield clearance with the resources on hand?. How big was they're QRF?, was it already committed elsewhere?. We don't know so why guess(or second guess for that matter), it's pointless.

Insurgents usually police up they're cas,weapons etc to keep the friendlys guessing, its standard SOP historically speaking.

[Spooky]

Well spoken and reasoned, Ngati.

I think that, as most things in life, the truth is a compromise between the Pentagon's spin and the more 'conservative' or cynical estimations of some of the hardened board members.

I'm sure it was a severe fire fight. 57 clean enemy casualties in an urban environment seems rather unlikely, however.

[StarvingStudent47]

It seems to me that the US would have a motive for exaguratting the kills in order to close off the worst month for coalition troops on a victorious note, I mean if this victory were not to have happened all the news would be about how bad a month November has been for the coalition forces.
And again, why would the guerillas be wearing uniforms???
Wouldn't that ruin the element of surprise/confusion a little if they labelled themselves as targets.

I wasn't there, so I can't prove anything, I can only speculate. But here's some speculation.

Why would they wear uniforms? Why do Bloods and Crypts wear red and blue? Why did many Vietcong wear uniforms instead of everyday wear? Darned if I know, but it seems to be a popular thing to do. These guys DID open fire on a heavily armed and armored convoy, so they ain't the brightest crayons in the box. No amount of "right-wing media spin" is going to invent the fact that these people essentially picked a fistfight with a grizzly bear. They were morons, or suicidal, or both. Let's keep that in mind when we evaluate their actions.

Why weren't more bodies recovered? Cause the remaining Fedayeen dragged away their fallen comrades? It happened in Mogadishu plenty, at least according to Mark Bowden. One can assume that Iraqis care as much about their comrades as Somalis do.

[16 OBr SpN]

Starving Student:


"Why would they wear uniforms?"

- You see, when you are in urban environment, and staging a guerilla warfare against an occupying force, wearing a uniform is not even suicidal it just doesn't make any common sense. Why would someone who wants to live, instead of blending into the population, would wear a uniform? Those guys surely want to live, and they do know something about guerilla tactics.

"Why weren't more bodies recovered? Cause the remaining Fedayeen dragged away their fallen comrades?"

- Have you ever heard of sealing off the area in further search & destroy of attackers?? :) Do you think that Iraqis would come up and easily pick the dead bodies with them? If it was 57 dead, then I guess they needed 60 survivors to get them all out. Just imagine the picture of 60 people simultaneously dragging their dead comrades on the streets with choppers flying over their heads! :lol:
Supposedly, some dead were buried under the rubble. How did Iraqis take them? Brought a bulldozer, or started digging right in front of Americans' noses? :lol:

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Kingpin]

I'm interested why Iraqis didn't use ATGMs like "Malyutka" during and after war.

[front]

I picked this up on Hackworth's www.sftt.org

I could not get a direct link so...

The source is: http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Special%20Reports%20Hack.db

Go to the Special Reports link on that page and then this article:

"A Combat Leader Gives The Inside Skinny Of The Biggest Battle Since The War Ended"

The convoy which was attacked while driving through Samara was not a supply convoy as reported, but was carrying large amounts of new Iraqi currency to stock local Iraqi banks and US greenbacks used to pay for goods and services the US forces need to accomplish their missions in Iraq. This convoy was heavily guarded by Abrams Tanks and Bradley Fighting Vehicles. It was akin to a huge Brinks Truck delivery.

The reports of 54 enemy killed will sound great on the home front, but the greater story is much more disturbing and needs to be told to the American Public.

When we received the first incoming rounds, all I could think of was how the hell did the Iraqis (most of these attackers being criminals, not insurgents) find out about this shipment? This was not broadcast on the local news, but Iraqi police knew about it. Bing, Bing Bing, You do the math.

Of greater importance in the scale of the attack and the coordination of the two operations. Iraqi Rebel Guerilla Units elements still retain the ability to conduct synchronized operations despite the massive overwhelming firepower "Iron Hammer" offensive this month.

Hack, most of the casualties were civilians, not insurgents or criminals as being reported. During the ambushes the tanks, brads and armored HUMVEES hosed down houses, buildings, and cars while using reflexive fire against the attackers. One of the precepts of "Iron Hammer" is to use an Iron Fist when dealing with the insurgents. As the division spokesman is telling the press, we are responding with overwhelming firepower and are taking the fight to the enemy. The response to these well coordinated ambushes was as a one would expect. The convoy continued to move, shooting at ANY target that appeared to be a threat. RPG fire from a house, the tank destroys the house with main gun fire and hoses the area down with 7.62 and 50cal MG fire. Rifle fire from an alley, the brads fire up the alley and fire up the surrounding buildings with 7.62mm and 25mm HE rounds. This was actually a rolling firefight through the entire town.

The ROE under "Iron Fist" is such that the US soldiers are to consider buildings, homes, cars to be hostile if enemy fire is received from them (regardless of who else is inside. It seems too many of us this is more an act of desperation, rather than a well thought out tactic. We really don't know if we kill anyone, because we don't stick around to find out. Since we armored troops and we are not trained to use counter-insurgency tactics; the logic is to respond to attacks using our superior firepower to kill the rebel insurgents. This is done in many cases knowing that there are people inside these buildings or cars who may not be connected to the insurgents.

The belief in superior firepower as a counter-insurgency tactic is then extended down to the average Iraqi, with the hope that the Iraqis will not support the guerillas and turn them in to coalition forces, knowing we will blow the hell out of their homes or towns if they don't. Of course in too many cases, if the insurgents bait us and goad us into leveling buildings and homes, the people inside will then hate us (even if they did not before) and we have created more recruits for the guerillas.

The Commander of the 3rd Brigade Combat Team, Colonel Frederick Rudesheim, said after this battle that "We are going to continue to take the fight to this enemy. This is the most significant contact we have had to date in the city of Samarra. We are going to have to respond accordingly."

This is a great attitude for a combat commander to have when fighting an armored force on force, but Colonel Rudesheim is not trained in Counter-Insurgency and my soldiers are taking the heat. We drive around in convoys, blast the hell out of the area, break down doors and search buildings; but the guerillas continue to attacks us. It does not take a George Patton to see we are using the wrong tactics against these people. We cannot realistically expect that Stability and Support Operations will defeat this insurgency.

As one would expect from using our overwhelming firepower, much of Samarra is fairly well shot up. The tanks and brads rolled over parked cars and fired up buildings where we believed the enemy was. This must be expected considering the field of vision is limited in an armored vehicle and while the crews are protected, they also will use recon by fire to suppress the enemy. Not all the people in this town were hostile, but we did see many people firing from rooftops or alleys that looked like average civilians, not the Feddayeen reported in the press. I even saw Iraqi people throwing stones at us, I told my soldiers to hold their fire unless they could indentfy a real weapon, but I still can't understand why somebody would throw a stone at a tank, in the middle of a firefight.

Since we did not stick around to find out, I am very concerned in the coming days we will find we killed many civilians as well as Iraqi irregular fighters. I would feel great if all the people we killed were all enemy guerrillas, but I can't say that. We are probably turning many Iraqi against us and I am afraid instead of climbing out of the hole, we are digging ourselves in deeper.

A COMBAT LEADER

[Kingpin]

The tanks and brads rolled over parked cars and fired up buildings where we believed the enemy was. Not all the people in this town were hostile, but we did see many people firing from rooftops or alleys that looked like average civilians, not the Feddayeen reported in the press. I even saw Iraqi people throwing stones at us, I told my soldiers to hold their fire unless they could indentfy a real weapon, but I still can't understand why somebody would throw a stone at a tank, in the middle of a firefight.

Since we did not stick around to find out, I am very concerned in the coming days we will find we killed many civilians as well as Iraqi irregular fighters. I would feel great if all the people we killed were all enemy guerrillas, but I can't say that. We are probably turning many Iraqi against us and I am afraid instead of climbing out of the hole, we are digging ourselves in deeper.


All EXACTLY like 16 OBr SpN said

[mocking_loudly_died]

Simple facts:

46 - 57 claimed dead.

Where are the bodies?

This story is a load of crap, sorry my yanky friends. ;)

Bodies don't disappear, you can not hide that many dead people.

[Vance]

Maybe they took them away? According to Muslim law

[mocking_loudly_died]

Maybe they were vampires and the Americans shot them with wooden stakes and their bodies turned to dust.

I will let Rumsfield use that one. :D

[Vance]

Or that.

[Haiw]

46 - 57 claimed dead.

Where are the bodies?
they ate them...
hey, at least its better than MRE's ;)

[California Joe]

Maybe they were vampires and the Americans shot them with wooden stakes and their bodies turned to dust.

I will let Rumsfield use that one. :D

Thank you Buffy. Now send over Willow and Anya, I'm feeling randy.

Your pal, Don.

[mocking_loudly_died]

I'm a Faith man myself.

She was the evil slayer.

[California Joe]

Word. She was a dirty girl.

[Beowulf]

Tonight on Milphotos.net: Epic poetry, British Literature, and Dirty Talk by California Joe....stay tuned

[California Joe]

Hi pal.

[Haiw]

Tonight on Milphotos.net: Epic poetry, British Literature, and Dirty Talk by California Joe....stay tuned
The airsoft bashing, metro****** conversation and ***** threads go on the 'Too hot for TV!'-DVD?

[Royal]

I picked this up on Hackworth's www.sftt.org

I could not get a direct link so...

The source is: http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Special%20Reports%20Hack.db

Go to the Special Reports link on that page and then this article:

"A Combat Leader Gives The Inside Skinny Of The Biggest Battle Since The War Ended"

The convoy which was attacked while driving through Samara was not a supply convoy as reported, but was carrying large amounts of new Iraqi currency to stock local Iraqi banks and US greenbacks used to pay for goods and services the US forces need to accomplish their missions in Iraq. This convoy was heavily guarded by Abrams Tanks and Bradley Fighting Vehicles. It was akin to a huge Brinks Truck delivery.

The reports of 54 enemy killed will sound great on the home front, but the greater story is much more disturbing and needs to be told to the American Public. etc etc etc

Worrying if true. :(

BTW do US line armour units deploying on OIF now go through some form of CI training prior to deployment?

[JF45]

Not debating whether it's true or not, but I have a lot of trouble believing anything Hackworth writes anymore. He did his service for the country but the man has serious integrity issues these days. And making **** up that supposedly came from the troops have been something he's known to do to push his agenda.

[front]

"And making **** up that supposedly came from the troops have been something he's known to do to push his agenda."

I was wondering about that. Do you have any examples of Hackworth making things up which you could point me to?

cheers

front

[Trident-za]

I too would like to see some evidence proving that Hack makes stuff up. I know some people on this forum don't like him, his website, or the articles he posts there, but I personally enjoy the site. It posts a wide variety of stuff, including VERY patriotic, pro-US military articles. (or is that the bit he is making up? :roll:)

[farmgirl]

Tonight on Milphotos.net: Epic poetry, British Literature, and Dirty Talk by California Joe....stay tuned
The airsoft bashing, metro****** conversation and ***** threads go on the 'Too hot for TV!'-DVD?


No one can say our conversations aren't diverse!

[Haiw]

Interracial **** is diverse too but that doesn't necessarily make it great...

[farmgirl]

Interracial **** is diverse too but that doesn't necessarily make it great...

:lol:

[ShotOver]

I think the Iraqis dragged the bodies away, it is the muslim law for them to be buried on the day of death.

Same with Somalia, we will never know how many were killed, because their bodies were dragged away and buried, during the fighting.

[16 OBr SpN]

I think the Iraqis dragged the bodies away, it is the muslim law for them to be buried on the day of death.

Same with Somalia, we will never know how many were killed, because their bodies were dragged away and buried, during the fighting.

But you see, in Somalia, Americans were fighting almost the entire city with no proper backup.
In this case, it was a firefight in a small area, with americans having air support, and tanks. Plus, I'm absolutely sure the area was sealed off afterwards.

If there were indeed so many bodies then I'm sure we would see them. Pentagon's love for video propaganda is known around the world! ;)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[ShotOver]

Yeah, good point mate.

But i would think if it was a street they were ambused on, the Iraqis would hide in buildings, or cars...

25mm shells don't leave much of a "body", neither does a few .50's from a Browning, or a few 40mm Mk19 rounds...

The amount of ammo the Americans pour on things is amazing, so they may not find many "whole" body's.

Did they say how many bodies they actually found?

[He219]

http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/uploads/medium/031129-A-8773T-019.jpg

Officials Stand by Number of Attackers Killed in Samarra; Operations Continue (http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Dec2003/n12032003_200312034.html)

WASHINGTON, Dec. 3, 2003 - U.S. Central Command officials are standing by the claim that 54 attackers were killed in the Nov. 30 ambush at a bank in Samarra, despite Iraqi civilians who say the number is much lower.

During a briefing from Baghdad today Army Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations, Combined Joint Task Force 7, told reporters today that he has "no reason to claim inaccurate figures." Kimmitt had reported the 54 killed in a Dec. 1 briefing.

"In fact we stand by those numbers," Kimmitt said. "Those numbers were provided by soldiers who were involved in the engagement, and we see no other evidence to suggest that those numbers are incorrect," he said, adding, "I trust the reports of my soldiers."

"There is no reason to doubt what the soldiers saw, there is no reason to doubt what the soldiers reported," he emphasized.

Dan Senor, senior spokesperson for the Coalition Provisional Authority, added that coalition forces go through "great efforts" to provide unscrupulous reports after each mission operation. "They (soldiers) have been forthright and truthful, and will continue to be so."

Kimmitt told reporters insurgents who wanted to "steal" the money provoked the Samarra incident. He said an Iraqi currency exchange truck arrived at the town to deliver new dinar to two banks. He said the 4th Infantry Division soldiers' only purpose was to provide security. Currency exchange trucks had been attacked four times in the past, he noted.

"The Iraqi currency exchange trucks were able to perform their mission, which was to bring new dinars into the town and take old dinars out," he explained. "The people who attacked those trucks were attacking not only coalition soldiers, but were attacking Iraqis that were trying to provide money for a restored, restabilized, rebuilt Iraq."

Kimmitt said that once the exchange was done, the soldiers left the town. "They had accomplished their mission, they did not provoke an attack, they responded to an attack from terrorists and from anti-coalition elements and anti-Iraqi forces that wanted to steal the money."

Also during the briefing, Senor, said CPA is focused like a "laser beam" on implementation of the Nov. 15 agreement that sets a deadline vote on a new Iraqi constitution. He said CPA chief Ambassador L. Paul Bremer continues to meet with members of the Iraqi Governing Council to work on the deadline.

Senor said a sign of progress in meeting that goal is the council's establishment of two committees to look at direct elections to the constitutional convention. "Both of those," he pointed out, "were welcomed as a very positive sign by the ambassador that we are working closely with the governing council and they're taking their own steps to get the process moving."

He said Bremer paid a third visit Dec. 2 to the 37-member Baghdad Council, the political body that represents the nine districts within Baghdad.

Senor said during that visit, the ambassador discussed with council members issues pertaining to corruption in Iraq, the role of women in the political process, the security situation, the U.S. supplemental funding in the country for the coming years, and efforts to reduce Iraq foreign sovereign debt.

Kimmitt also told reporters that operations in the country remain "relatively stable." He said that military offensive and "intelligence-based" operations continue to enable a free Iraq. Those operations, he said, are designed to "kill or capture" anti-coalition and anti-Iraqi elements attempting to obstruct a safe and secure environment in Iraq. He told reporters that continued raids and cordons and searches have led to hundreds of enemy captures and weapons seizures.

In separate releases, CENTCOM reported that 82nd Airborne Division paratroopers captured Brig. Gen. Daham Al Mahemdi during an early morning cordon and search mission today. He is suspected of having indirect contact with Saddam Hussein and directing anti-coalition activities in Fallujah.

Soldiers found two AK-47 assault rifles, five AK-47 magazines, a 9 mm pistol, a 9 mm pistol magazine, a shotgun, one 100-round drum of ammunition, and assorted documents, including a photograph of Mahemdi in an Iraqi Army uniform, at his home.

Elements the division's 3rd Brigade also captured a suspected financier of anti-coalition activities, Abu Bilal Al Janabi. He is suspected of financing and aiding anti- coalition activities, including paying rewards for attacks against coalition forces.

Also soldiers from the 1st Brigade, 1st Infantry Division, discovered a large weapons and ammunition cache north of Khalidiyah. The cache contained 650 plastic anti-tank mines, 400 anti-personnel mines, and 280 rocket-propelled grenade warheads, RPG fuel rods and propellant, as well as 10 anti-tank missiles, and various small arms and demolitions.

In another joint operation with Iraqi security forces, CENTCOM reported the 173rd Airborne Brigade, part of 4th Infantry Division's Task Force Ironhorse, captured 26 suspected Fedayeen Saddam members. During that operation, soldiers confiscated 62 AK-47s, 200 rounds of AK-47 ammunition, one rocket- propelled grenade launcher and two improvised-explosive-device-making kits.

Kimmitt also reported that in the past 24 hours coalition forces overall conducted 1,658 patrols and 22 raids, and captured 115 anti-coalition suspects. In the southeast, multinational division forces conducted another 240 patrols and two raids, and detained 25 personnel. Another 41 individuals were captured in the northeast zone, he said.

Four individuals with Iranian paperwork were detained after coalition forces found numerous arms and weapons in a mini- bus stopped in Basra, he said. "Among the weapons seized were several rocket-propelled grenade launchers and rifles," he noted.

In Baghdad, the 1st Armored Division detained 14 individuals suspected of ties to former regime leader Saddam Hussein's paramilitary Fedayeen Saddam. Three Iraqis were captured in a separate raid on targets suspected of attacks against the coalition. According to Kimmitt, they had $1.4 million dinar, three computers, Wahabi Islam sect booklets, Osama bin Laden literature, and weapons and ammunition in their possession.

Kimmitt reported that over the past seven days, U.S. forces have seen a trend that is "below recent norms" in the number of enemy attacks. He noted that coalition forces have encountered an average 19 engagements per day by the enemy, three less than 22 attacks per day reported a week ago. During the period, there were two attacks on Iraqi military and two attacks on Iraqi civilians, he said.

Kimmitt told reporters that the 101st Airborne Division has completed training another battalion of soldiers for the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps, bringing that unit's total to four battalions. Kimmitt said the battalion's soldiers will be responsible for securing Iraq oil pipelines and other infrastructure, and will be "fully integrated into combat operations and infrastructure security."

In addition, he said the coalition is helping Iraq to form an elite special force within the Iraqi Police. "What we're developing is a capability for the Iraqis to provide their own security," he said. "Most police forces throughout the world have special police forces inside their organizations. …It is just an ordinary part of police activities."

In other developments in the country, Kimmitt said the Iraqi Student Union has declared itself against terrorist attacks in Iraq and is planning to start a campaign supporting social and political stabilization of the country.

Senor also reported that at the Republican Guard Palace Dec. 2, the first of the four heads in a monument of Saddam Hussein was torn down. The others will be taken down in coming days, which he called a very "important and symbolic" gesture.

[grendel]

On the numbers of killed, did they actually visit the local graveyard and counted the number of fresh graves? ;)

The much lower version given by local Iraqis sounds much believable.


Iraq disputes US casualty figures
Officials in the northern Iraqi town of Samarra have disputed the US accounts of the number of people killed in a gun battle on Sunday.
The American military has said 54 Iraqis died, and another 16 were wounded in what it described as the bloodiest fire-fight since the end of the war.

No-one is disputing the fact that there was a fierce fire-fight in northern city on Sunday.

It began when attackers ambushed an American armoured convoy on a mission to change old Iraqi dinars bearing Saddam Hussein's portrait with newly-designed currency.

Organised attack

An American military spokesman said the battle that followed was the best organised and co-ordinated assault on their forces that they have encountered since Baghdad fell.

But Samarra is known to be at the heart of the resistance movement, and attackers had tried to ambush similar convoys in the past, so their troops were well prepared.

The spokesman described a battle that sounded like a blood-bath, as US troops turned their weapons on anybody shooting at them.

The cost to the Americans: five wounded, soldiers, none in a life-threatening condition; and one wounded civilian.

But now local officials say the American accounts of dead and wounded are wildly exaggerated.

The Samarra's hospital director, Abd Tawfiq, said his staff treated 80 casualties and received just eight dead.

Even so, Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt has admitted that the US figures are only estimates.

"The reports that we have are from visual battlefield reports," he said. "These are reports that we got from the soldiers who were involved in the engagement and that is why we have said that all of these are simply estimated killed and wounded."

But a battle seen through a tank's periscope is a very narrow view indeed and it is likely that in the heat of the conflict, soldiers may well have assumed that they killed someone who was, in fact, only wounded.

Sergeant Nicholas Mullen, a gunner in an Abrams battle tank, offered another explanation: "We don't stick around to collect the bodies," he said.

In fact, the American and Iraqi tallies of combined dead and wounded are not that far off one another.

The military counted 70 to the Samarra hospital's 88. It is a discrepancy that is not unrealistic given the type of engagement.

The Americans were using enormously powerful weapons, including 50 mm cannons mounted on Bradley Fighting Vehicles, and 120 mm tank rounds from the Abrams.

Used in a densely populated urban area, built with flimsy mud-bricks, it is almost inconceivable that people well out of sight of the gunners were not also injured in the battle.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3257460.stm

[Argyll]

So the local Iraqi's risked life and limb to drag the bodies away during an armoured engagement just to uphold Muslim Traditions?
Yeah right!!
There were no reprts from the Helo aircover stating that they saw this happen after the firefight?
Then that possibly indicates 2 things,1.That this village and it's occupants are totally sympathetic towrds the old Regime,by removing them.
2.That indeed a significant amount of the casualties may have been these "innocent"body removers,who were only following their Muslim Beliefs!!

Considering they have not been removeing their KIA or severly wounded before why start now?

As for bodies recovered,I think it has been less than 10!

As for the comments regarding the state of the bodies after being hit by 25mm and .5 in,then the streets and the local would be awash with blood and guts,pretty easy to see where an enemy was KIA/WIA.
The numbers in my opinion reflect both WIA and KIA and that is more realistic,the KIA I'm willing to bet are indeed less than 10,but the overall figs are up in the 60-70's,including WIA

I remember watching a clip of US troops engaging an White SUV on the outskirts of Baghdad,and they were pouring fire into it,and there were 3-4 guys running back and forth,you could not determine for certainty if they were armed or not,this engagement took place in daylight at a distance of less than 400m ,and you only saw one guy fall but he got up again!These were regular infantrymen from the 3ID,the guys in Sundays incident I believe were MP's,now I'm not saying that they are better marksmen,but that's what it looks like!!

[JF45]

"And making **** up that supposedly came from the troops have been something he's known to do to push his agenda."

I was wondering about that. Do you have any examples of Hackworth making things up which you could point me to?

cheers

front
An example would be in his book, Hazardous Duty, in the section on Mogadishu where he quotes a soldier in the battle as wishing he had a Stinger to shoot down General Garrison in the command helo, when everyone on the ground there knew that Garrison was back at the JOC. This was because Hack had a dislike for Garrison. He goes on and on about how the Army didn't prepare for this or that, blaming Garrison for everything, when even a little research shows that he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Before the first Gulf War, his line was that the soft, untested US military would suffer casualties in the tens of thousands and flee in fear from the battle hardened Iraqi military. Now all you hear is his praise about how great it was, then degraded from that point.

For the longest time, he ****ounced Wesley Clark as the ultimate "perfumed prince". Now that he's a candidate on the side of Hackworth's agenda, all of a sudden his opinion is "he's impressed" and "Can he make tough decisions? You bet he can". When it suits him, Hack flip-flops issues faster than Howard Dean.

He was the lead reporter criticizing Admiral Boorda on his medals leading to the man's suicide, while he himself wore unauthorized awards, including his self-awarded Ranger tab-because he assumed he earned it. He blames the medals on admin clerks, and uses the admiral's suicide to push his agenda(as usual), all the while declaring himself the most decorated soldier in America.

The man has an agenda, and though I have no doubt he's patriotic and pro-US, it doesn't change that he lies and creates convienent quotes whenever he needs to.

[Trident-za]

Interesting points, although I'd hardly say any of that was "making stuff up".... (anymore than the Bush administration made stuff up about WMD in Iraq).

Here is a thought: does the US military leadership (and/or the Bush administration) focus on or ignore certain facts, to suit their current viewpoint, MORE or LESS often than Hackworth? I'm quite sure that anyone who had an interest in doing so could come up with a spectacularly long list of examples of the military or Bush administration doing the same, or worse, than what you've listed above. Does this mean we must ignore anything they ever say? I suggest that it depends entirely on your current beliefs....

My point is this: it would be naive to think that any current leader (political/military/corporate) does not do this sort of crap. How any person reacts to it depends on the extent to which that person is prepared to ignore facts, or rationalize them. This is usually dependent entirely on that person already believes, rather than reality/truth.

For instance, you insinuate that Hackworth's ability/willingness to change his mind is a bad thing.... personally I think it is better to admit you were wrong and change your mind than to steadfastedly stick to your guns, irrespective of the facts... although my opinion on this changes depending on who the person in question is :oops:

Take a good look at the threads on this forum and count how many times you have seen anyone change their mind/opinion, based on a news article or a debate (erm, flame war anyone?). It doesn't happen often :) We ALL tend to ignore articles we don't like, and focus on one's we do like. Human nature summed up in a phrase: "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts"

So.... here is my opinion on Hack: he is a political creature who has BTDT more than about 95% of the people on this forum, and 100% of the current politicians. Does this make him a God? No... (apparently he has to be elected president first). He has changed his mind, and distorted a few things on occassion (I just bet that nobody here has, right?). But, and this is the punchline.... I think he is trying to make the US military a better place for the warriors, and not the pencil-pushers. Good thing or bad thing? Depends on what you already believe :)

[JF45]

When you quote people that never said something, I consider that making it up. And his changing his mind is not through his willingness, but instead at his convienence. Like how his opinion on military pistols flopped from the uncontrollable .45, to the super 9mm, then from the pathetic 9mm to the good ol' .45. But you're right about changing people's minds. My intention was never to sway anybody, just to say that Hackworth's writings would not be something I'd ever use as a trustful source. You'll have those who won't believe it because it's opposing their opinion, and you'll have those who'll swear by it without any verification simply because it supports them. And you'll have Kingpin which seems to never have an original thought.

This has nothing to do with the validity of the 46-54 Iraqis. I commented on Hack as a source, and answered questions about why. Nothing more. Hackworth has an axe to grind with the Army. If people followed what he professed, we would still be using only Huey gunships and Sherman tanks.

[Roger Rabbit]

Maybe the British should go back to the good ol Brown Bess.

Are there any updated casualty reports yet?

[Trident-za]

Fair comment JF45

On the validity of 46-54 dead Iraqis - I tend to side with the comments made by Argyll and 16 OBr SpN. How anyone can make an EXACT estimate of KIA without hanging around to count bodies is beyond me, for a start. Sounds a bit like the stories I've read about in Vietnam - count the arms and legs you find, and divide by 4 for an "exact" bodycount. Except in this case, they didnt even do that....

I am sure it was a succesful contact from a US point of view, and it must be a good morale booster fpr the troops (assuming that nobody feels bad about collateral damage). Good job. I find the 54 bit hard to swallow though :)