60 Years ago, the fall of Berlin

[He219]

It would be great if people would contribute to a day by day account of the events that brought WWII in the European Theater to an end.



http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/img/19/0,1886,2442963,00.jpg (http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/download/0,1896,2001889,00.gif)

April 16th, 1945. The Battle of the Seelower Heights (http://kriegsende.ard.de/pages_std_lib/0,3275,OID1104166,00.html):

At 4AM the artillery bomardment started with over a million shells fired into the Seelower Heights. Pictures in Berlin fell and telephones started ringing on their own from the impacts.

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/img/7/0,1886,2434855,00.jpghttp://www.vierlinden.org/tourismus/foto/seelowerhoehen2.jpg

However, the concentration of fire on the first ring of defense was mitigated as Soviet battle plans were discovered the night before from a captured Red Army soldier. German troops had already pulled back to the second defensive ring.

Then the Soviet assault began. 123 captured German FLAK searchlights were utilized by the Red Army in an effort to blind the German defenders from the advance of Soviet forces. The dust kicked up by the artillery barrage along with some early morning fog served only to reflect the light and blind advancing Red Army forces. German counterfire had a devistating effect on silhouetted Soviet forces that Marshall Zukov advanced the schedule for a massive armored attack. The Germans made little gain of the chaos behind Soviet lines.

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/img/10/0,1886,2434858,00.jpg

http://kriegsende.ard.de/container/ndr_style_images_default/0,2299,OID1145920,00.jpg

The goal of capturing the hights by nightfall wasn't met and another two days. 33,000 Soviet and 12,000 German casualties would pass until a massive Soviet tank assault eventually captured the Seelower Heights on April 18th, 1945.

http://kriegsende.ard.de/container/ndr_style_images_default/0,2299,OID1140038,00.jpg

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/img/23/0,1886,2442967,00.jpg (http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/download/0,1896,2001890,00.gif)

The Battle of Berlin has begun.


http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20050416/i/r2838673475.jpg

Soviet army veteran Soja Balabai from Belarus commemorates comrades killed in action during World War Two, at a war cemetery at Seelow Heights near Berlin April 16, 2005. Balabai took part at a memorial to remember the 60th anniversary of the Battle at Seelow heights. Over 33,000 Soviet, 12,000 German and 5,000 Polish soldiers fell in the battle when the Red Army opened its assault on Berlin on April 16, 1945. *******/Arnd Wiegmann
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20050416/i/r1828357251.jpg

Soviet army veterans Alexander Ulyanovic (L), Viktor Malik (2ndL) and Soja Balabai(2ncR) from Belarus pose with German veteran Hans Kabel (R) in front a Soviet World War Two memorial at a war cemetery at Seelow Heights near Berlin, April 16, 2005
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20050416/i/r2286687238.jpg

Former Soviet army tank stands in front of people attending a memorial at the Seelow Heights near Berlin, April 16, 2005. World War II veterans took part at the memorial to remember the 60th anniversary of the battle at the Seelow heights. Over 33.000 Soviet, 12.000 German and 5,000 Polish soldiers fell in the battle when the Red Army opened its assault on Berlin on April 16, 1945. *******/Arnd Wiegmann


Please, join in.

[Navor]

How many Soviet Soldiers died in the Ops that lead to the capture of Berlin
(from Seelow heights on?)

[Knutsen]

Great ide He219. Now my turn wit April 17th 1945:

Canadian troops liberate Apeldoorn:
I found this web with some pics. No text though.
http://www.apeldoorn-canada.com/liberation.html

Also on that day US 7th army capture Nuremberg.

And a quite unknown episode of the war, the Schlachtgeschwader 77 Massacre at Kamenz , a ground attack carried out by allied air force:

http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/kamenz.htm

[Lokos]

The Berlin Operation encapsulates that phase of the campaign, Navor. Refer to Krivosheev's casualty figures.

Lokos

[SerbPVO]

Its not the "Fall of Berlin"....its LIBERATION of BERLIN.
We liberated it...

[2RHPZ]

It would be great if people would contribute to a day by day account of the events that brought WWII in the European Theater to an end.

http://www.rozhlas.cz/_obrazek/00270759.jpeg
Czech Prague uprising 05-09 May 1945. Czech Light machinegun Mk26

http://www.rozhlas.cz/_obrazek/00270760.jpeg

http://www.rozhlas.cz/_obrazek/00270761.jpeg

http://www.rozhlas.cz/_obrazek/00270767.jpeg

http://www.rozhlas.cz/_obrazek/00270777.jpeg
Panzerfaust Mk60

http://www.rozhlas.cz/_obrazek/00270769.jpeg
Czechoslovakian hand grenades Mk34 and signal pistol

[Jani.R]

Its not the "Fall of Berlin"....its LIBERATION of BERLIN.
We liberated it...

Where the raped women part of the "package"?

[Lokos]

Jani:

I love these rape discussions. Pray tell, old son, how much do you know about the issues associated with the rapes that happened in Berlin?

Lokos

[Para]

The Russians declared that the parts of Germany that fell under their control as open for looting and any thing else that went with it. All Germans where instructed to leave their doors unlocked so that the Russian troops could enter and help them selfs to any of the goods or women that took there fancy. This may sound hard but when you look at the way the German troops had treated the Russians, men women and children I think that you can understand there actions. With over 20 million people killed in the war there was not much thought given to the thought of forgiveness.
What I did I do on the day war ended in Europe, well I was in London dancing in the streets, and having a right knee's up as they say. It seemed very strange not to have to look out for air raids and buzz bombs, and not to have to worry about the black out or being blown to bits by the silent killer the V2.

[Kitsune]

Quite a lot of those 17 million Soviet civilians that died where not killed by Germans. Many were killed by Soviets or died because of especially ruthless tactics used by the Soviets themselves. So that number is somewhat misleading.

I find the rape discussion absolutely necessary. The German people is usually treated as the sole evil-doer, and is denied who has to call itself a victim. But fact is that Germans were victims, too, not only perpetrators. The rapes conducted by the Soviet army are a reality. As were the massacres. And the victims number millions, that's a fact. Maybe a fact Russians do not want to hear, but still a fact.

And no, Para, there is no understanding for this. There is no excuse and no justification. And it's disgusting of you to hint that there could be.

And, no the Soviet army did NOT liberate Berlin. They represented the Stalinist dictatorship, which is probably the worst tyranny that existed on Earth, ever. The degree of oppression, the cruelty, the numbers of people killed, purged, however you call it surpasses even what Hitler's regime did. Even if one includes the Holocaust.
But be that as it may: as soldiers of a totalitarian state, the Soviets can hardly be said to have liberated anyone. Conquer they can, yes. Liberate they cannot. That is my opinion. One may respect the Soviet soldiers for their bravery, and I certainly respect anyone of them who did behave with honor and compassion, which some of them showed (which excludes all murderers and rapists among them), but I do not feel thankfulnes. That would be too much to ask.

[ArmedPacifist]

Its not the "Fall of Berlin"....its LIBERATION of BERLIN.
We liberated it...

Really? Both parts of it?

I don't think the people of east Berlin felt very liberated, please don't mock their sacrifices.

It was most definitely the fall of Berlin.

[He219]

Its not the "Fall of Berlin"....its LIBERATION of BERLIN.
We liberated it...
Berlin wasn't 'Liberated' until Nov. 9th, 1989.

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20050418/i/r2178634765.jpg
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20050418/i/r2669226113.jpg
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20050418/i/r3157410775.jpg

Russian cadets march during the rehearsal for the military parade on the Dvortsovaya Square in St. Petersburg, April 18, 2005. Russia prepares to mark the 60th anniversary of the Soviet Union's victory over Nazi Germany in World War Two on May 9.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/more%20pics/8012155.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/more%20pics/8012156.jpg

** ADVANCE FOR Sunday, April 24 **Theo Sawadda poses at his home in Berlin, March 31, 2005. In April 1945, German army Lt. Theophil Sawadda, a 21-year-old conscript who had been near fatally wounded twice in three years of combat, found himself leading a group of 16 and 17-year-olds pressed into service to fight the Soviets south of Berlin. (AP Photo/Herbert Knosowski)

[Dima-RussianArms]

Quite a lot of those 17 million Soviet civilians that died where not killed by Germans. Many were killed by Soviets or died because of especially ruthless tactics used by the Soviets themselves. So that number is somewhat misleading.

I find the rape discussion absolutely necessary. The German people is usually treated as the sole evil-doer, and is denied who has to call itself a victim. But fact is that Germans were victims, too, not only perpetrators. The rapes conducted by the Soviet army are a reality. As were the massacres. And the victims number millions, that's a fact. Maybe a fact Russians do not want to hear, but still a fact.

And no, Para, there is no understanding for this. There is no excuse and no justification. And it's disgusting of you to hint that there could be.

And, no the Soviet army did NOT liberate Berlin. They represented the Stalinist dictatorship, which is probably the worst tyranny that existed on Earth, ever. The degree of oppression, the cruelty, the numbers of people killed, purged, however you call it surpasses even what Hitler's regime did. Even if one includes the Holocaust.
But be that as it may: as soldiers of a totalitarian state, the Soviets can hardly be said to have liberated anyone. Conquer they can, yes. Liberate they cannot. That is my opinion. One may respect the Soviet soldiers for their bravery, and I certainly respect anyone of them who did behave with honor and compassion, which some of them showed (which excludes all murderers and rapists among them), but I do not feel thankfulnes. That would be too much to ask.

Kitsune, stop the BS, your country have started the war and lost it.
Your country is responsible for the Holocaust.
Your country proclaimed slavs and jews as underhumans, tried to completely exterminate us and reserved role of slaves for those who survived.
Would you like me to post a picture gallery of German warcrimes during WW2?

Perhaps you don't know that but there wasn't a single family in the SU that wasn't affected by the War, everyone wanted revenge for the murdered brothers, sisters, mothers and sons.
It wasn't Hitler vs Stalin, it was Russian peoples war for survival and later for revenge.

Your coutry deserved every little bit it got.

Oh, and btw my grandfather (lt Colonel in the Russian Army) had peed on the Reichstag.

[He219]

Thank you for your constructive, factual and non-biased input, CAG 147!
:D



April 18th, 1945: The Bombing of 'Festung Helgoland (http://kriegsende.ard.de/pages_std_lib/0,3275,OID1277342,00.html)'
http://kriegsende.ard.de/container/ndr_style_images_default/0,2299,OID1266384,00.jpg
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http://kriegsende.ard.de/container/ndr_style_images_default/0,2299,OID1266294,00.jpg

The destroyed Island Helgoland, April 1945

Nowadays people know Helgoland as a popular tourist destination. 60 years ago today Helgoland was leveled by a Royal Air Force raid of over 1,000 bombers. 285 civilians and FLAK combatants perished. The islands numerous subterranean bunkers are testament to it's past. The designation fortress 'Festung' was given on April 7th, 1945 in anticipation of Allied invasion.

<img src=http://pro.corbis.com/images/HU024305.jpg?size=67&uid={7d5986bd-3cc0-4c82-ada0-7e930a22cd52}>

A giant crater on the island of Heligoland, occupied by the British from May 8, 1945-March 1, 1952, created after the post World War II demolition of tunnels which once housed German submarines.
<img src=http://pro.corbis.com/images/HU061384.jpg?size=67&uid={227122cc-d91a-4e13-970c-4f978e1ec575}>

The British Navy destroyed German military fortifications on the island of Helgoland during Operation Big Bang, 1947.

[Para]

No matter what spin any one tries to put on it over 20 million Russians died due to the German invasion of Russia. They burnt, raped, and murdered there way across Russia showing no mercy what's so ever to Russians. they would commander their houses and throw out into sub zero temperatures to freeze to death. Yes I agree that the Russians where no angels but when look at what Germans had done to Russia then what would you expect there troops to do, thank the Germans for reducing there population for smashing the whole country up. Lets face they destroyed every thing they could in Russia as the retreated they left the country in complete rubble. It rather like the Japanese these days saying we did nothing wrong it was all Americas fault if they had only left us to dispose of all the Chinese people rather than applying sanctions we would not have attacked Pearl Harbour.

[He219]

This one is out of sequence, but worthy of address ..

The Capitulation of Königsberg (http://kriegsende.ard.de/pages_std_lib/0,3275,OID1084280,00.html)

Königsberg, Capitol of East Prussia. Many Berliners and Western Germans fled to Königsberg in the East to escape Allied bombing. On August 27-30, 1944, 4,000 people died in multiple RAF bombing raids that destroyed the historic city center. The Königsberg Castle and its historic Bernsteinzimmer was laid to ashes using phosphorus incindeary bombs. The historic dome burnt down to it's foundations.

However, it's modern military fortifications and bunkers fared well throughout the bombing. People believed it impossible for the Red Army to take their capital. Nazi propaganda declared not a single Soviet Soldier would cross the borders of the Reich.

January 12th, 1945:

Over one million Soviet soldiers launch the offensive to capture East Prussia with the goal of cutting the land escape route to the west. The Red Army closes in a weeks time to within 40 km of Königsberg.

January 21, 1945:

The City-Kommandant General Otto Lasch orders women, children and non-combatant males to leave the city. The next day the last train to Berlin departs with refugees. Thereafter, all land links are captured by the Soviets. For the remainder, the only escape is a 50 km ocean voyage to the nearby harbor of Pillau. Even this escape is cut off and Soviet forces start shelling the city on January 21st, 1945.

http://kriegsende.ard.de/container/ndr_style_images_default/0,2299,OID1155974,00.jpg

Soviets forces appear to have overestimated the strength of the defenders and hold off with an assault, first engaging the 4th German Army to the southwest of the city. City life normalises for the next two months under the protection of 40,000 defenders.

http://kriegsende.ard.de/container/ndr_style_images_default/0,2299,OID1088398,00.jpg

A last dangerous breakout is made with civilians escaping through a narrow corridor to the port of Pillau under artillery bombardment. There, chaos ensues as families are separated in search of transport by ship. Men of fighting age are separated or executed if they refused. Some even make the dangerous route back to Königsberg.

http://www.feldgrau.com/wilhelm-map.jpg
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The 25,000 ton steamer "Wilhelm Gustloff (http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,grossbild-161975-339095,00.html)"
http://kriegsende.ard.de/container/ndr_style_images_default/0,2299,OID1127830,00.jpg

Shortly after 9pm on January 30, 1945, the steamer Wilhelm Gustloff, under escort by German Torpedoboat T-36, is sunk by Soviet Kommandant Alexander Marinesko and his submarine S-13 who mistakes it as a troop-transport. The torpedoboat immediately debth-charges and severely damages the Soviet sub.

9,000 of the 10,200 passengers perish, six times as many as on the Titanic. The act is not considered a war-crime. 200 of the passengers were soldiers, the ship was under torpedoboat escort and it boasted ainti-aircraft guns.

http://www.compunews.com/s13/marinesko.jpg
http://kriegsende.ard.de/container/ndr_style_images_default/0,2299,OID1061258,00.jpg
Soviet memorial for Alexander Marinesko.

March 4th, 1945: The 4th German Army falls and the Soviet assault on the city begins April 6th. The city is subjected to three days of ferocious bombardment. One last attempt is made to escape on the night of the 9th. The plan fails.

http://kriegsende.ard.de/container/ndr_style_images_default/0,2299,OID1088416,00.jpg

Within his bunker under the paradeground, General Lasch decides to surrender the garrison despite Adolf Hitler's insistence of fighting on until the last person. Once Hitler hears of the plans to capitulate, General Lasch is sentenced to death and hung. Königsberg is almost completely destroyed.

The plight doesn't end for the city's inhabitants. After the fall of the city they are subjected to fear, desiese and famine. Things only improved when in May of 1946 the Soviets allowed the return of civil administration.

In June of 1946 the city is re-named Kaliningrad by the Soviets. Forced deportation follows and the region is ethnically cleansed of German inhabitants. East Prussia is divided between Poland and Russia, thereafter known as Kaliningrad Oblast.

[Mr.K]

Poor little nazis and their sympathisers. How dare you, you started the war and you wanted to be treated fairly when you loose. When the nazis invaded USSR, they took and raped whatever they could. Not to mention executions and village burnings.
Well guess what, 1945 was payback time. If i was there i'd be f. pissed too.

Great pics specially of the uprising.

[LoveMeister]

I am amazed that people can see this so black and white.

@Lokos
I take it you are Russian. You are most definitely a troll. To claim Berlin was 'liberated' is such a provocative statement I have difficulties finding words to describe it. The Soviet Union was under Stalins rule - as Kitsune points out - the worst dictatorship to ever exist on this planet. If you do not know anything about how things were in Berlin I suggest you read a few books about the subject and then come back. May I suggest Berlin: The Downfall, 1945 by Antony Beevor as a starter. It's not that long (about 500 pages) and pretty easy to read/understand.

I do not really care if Kitsune is German or whatever. He is the only one who have some sort of human perspective on this deal.

@Dima-RussianArms
That is one of the most barbaric posts I've read in quite some time. Also one of the most hypocritical ones... You should ponder the meaning of 'Don't throw rocks when you live in a glasshouse'. I will not even go into dissecting your statements because I fear the words will be lost on you.

@Para
If indeed you were dancing and drinking on the day the war ended then I salute you and respect you - remember that.
I do however have some difficulties absorbing some of your statements.

@koutch
'If I were there...' is the easiest and most abused internet phrase ever. If you were there then what? Have you been to a war zone before? As combatant? As civi? Have you ever actually rapes someone (man or woman)? How do you know your reaction pattern under circumstances like this?


Here's a nice little slideshow with captions:
http://www.worldwar2database.com/cgi-bin/slideviewer.cgi?list=berlin_45.slides

Cheers

- The LoveMeister

[Supe]

Rape and revenge murder of civilians is lame. You can't justify that ****. I respect the accomplishments of those who served in the Red Army. I don't respect the following reprisals. They (those that committed such crimes) were no better than the German thugs who committed those same crimes on the Russians.

[Chris0176]

A rapist is a rapist.. nothing more

[Para]

Many of the comments made on here condemning the Russians for the way treated the Germans in some way are understandable from the younger members of this forum. Lets face it most you have never known war, and nor have your parents, and lets face it most of your Grandparents may be able to remember it but never took part in it as time has moved on to such an extended that the Veterans of WW2 are now a dying breed. Many of the books that are being written on the subject are written by authors who are working from archive material and putting there own interpretation on it. Now LoveMeister said he was worried by some of my comments, well lets try and explain my position on this. I was born back in the 1930's I did not take part in the conflict as a Serviceman but I can remember the conflict well and what went on at that time, so to certain extent I am speaking with first hand knowledge and not some thing that I have read or seen on television with added slant of the person that made the programme. Now lets talk a bit about the Germans, well the woman that lived next door to us was a German she was never interned nor was she ever insulted by any one including us lads she treated with great respect as it was beyond as code as lads to do any thing else. German POW now to wards the end of the war they became part of the landscape where we lived and those they thought where trust worthy where let out of camp to help around the place we all got to know them and they even visited at our homes and had tea with us and to be honest I learnt a lot from from them and got a greater understanding of people from these visits. Lets face it 46,000 German POW asked to stay in Britain at the end of the war and this was granted. Now this is some thing to think about when you look back and see that nearly every family in the land lost some member of the their family in the war.
On saying this you then have try and put your self in the Russians shoes and ask your self just how would i behave if I was Russian and had the things done to my family that the Germans had done to mine. When the Germans first invaded Russia most Russians greeted them as liberators, then along came the SS with Hitlers instructions that all Russians where sub human and should be wiped of the face of the earth, and being the SS the set about the task with German thoroughness that is hard to believe. Now if you found that all your female family's members had raped, tortured then killed, are you going to forgive them and say thats all right now that you are losing we will forgive you, for Christ sakes get real and grow up, no you will have this burning hate and all you want to do is to hurt them as they have hurt you. To really understand this war and what went on you needed to have lived through it, then you might just understand why some people did what they did.

[LoveMeister]

@Para
Thank you for your reply. It was an interesting read.
I (and several other forum members) may be too young for ww2 but I'm certainly not too young to experience conflict. I envy you for being part of such a historical event as the end of ww2 (I bet that you must have had quite a hangover the next day : )). My conflicts were far less glorious than ww2...
I think you are missing my point slightly. I did not question if the Russians had 'good enough' reason for hating/wanting revenge on the Germans and I am certainly NOT talking about forgiveness (even though it is a beautiful thing some things just cannot be forgiven). I am talking about where your personal thresholds are as a human being. I know for a fact I cannot rape a woman. I know for a fact that I am capable of shooting with the intent to kill a woman. In a conflict you will get a general dislike and/or hatred to 'The Enemy' but to go out of your way to terrorize the civies of the country you are peace-keeping/occupying takes a pretty unhealthy person in the first place.
The Russians were victims of vicious propaganda on equal terms as the Germans. I would also like to point out that the Russians indeed murdered and raped when the battle were raging in Russia itself. I am not trying to play down the horrible pain and suffering the average Russian man had to endure during the war - not at all. And I am certainly not sympathizing with the Nazi doings. What I do have is *compassion* for the innocents caught up in the madness. As you pointed out yourself in the beginning many many Russians greeted the Germans as liberators but once the front moved on and the 'Einsatz gruppen' moved in and did their evil deeds they quickly changed their minds. When the tides turned and Russia steam rolled into Germany I feel equally sorry for the innocent civies who were on the receiving end now.

It is obvious that prolonged combat will severely skew or alter your perception of what is right and what is wrong - but most of the inhuman acts of cruelty committed by both sides were not done by frontline-troops. They were done by rear-end formations created especially for terror.

Cheers

- The LoveMeister

PS: Please refrain from patronizing me again by telling me to 'grow up' - even if you do not agree with me.

[Para]

LoveMiester
I think that great problem on the Eastern Front in the finish was the lack of any life expectancy, neither side found that surrender was not an option. When you you have nothing to live for and death is the only option then that thin veneer of civilisation goes out the window hence the atrocities just multiplied on both sides.

[Thor]

Oh, and btw my grandfather (lt Colonel in the Russian Army) had peed on the Reichstag.
You know, the only thing that will happen when you make such a remark is that some people will start taking leaks on the graves of russian soldiers, Kreml and whatever. Is that what you want?

Either both sides admit that atrocities/war crimes are never justified or we start preparing for another war.

[Dima-RussianArms]

Either both sides admit that atrocities/war crimes are never justified or we start preparing for another war.

Justified????!!!
Revenge doesn't have to be justified, because it is always personal.

And who are you to pass judgement, like it matters anyhow, on a Russian grunt whose family was tortured and later murdered just because they were "sub humans"?
Are you trying to tell me that if someone would rape your wife and feed your kids to dogs, you will simply let it go?

There is no denial on what have happened in Russia, except what you call atrocities/war crimes, we consider justified revenge...
But you have to ask yourself who and what started the chain of events that led to all that and what did your country do to stop it?

[Mr.K]

No most of Russians didn't greet the germans as liberators. Some did, and many didn't.
As for "if i were there", sorry i got a bit too emotional. I don't know how would i act, but i wouln't give a hug to a wounted Hans over there. And invite him over for a tea.
Picture yourself with a rifle surrounded by people that you dont like.
As for the whole "rape" thing, that some of you like really like emphasise, if i remember Zhukov gave an order to execute anyone accused of rape on the spot. NKVD was always there and always happy to send a soldier to a GULAG.
Some germans were anti-nazi too, and fought side by side with soviet troops.
As for "liberation", your logic can be applied to the war in iraq. Yeah iraqis are free now. Free from Saddam but occupied by the States.
Surrendering was really not an option after those bloody years.

[2RHPZ]

Shortly after 9pm on January 30, 1945, the steamer Wilhelm Gustloff, under escort by German Torpedoboat T-36, is sunk by Soviet Kommandant Alexander Marinesko and his submarine S-13 who mistakes it as a troop-transport. The torpedoboat immediately debth-charges and severely damages the Soviet sub.

9,000 of the 10,200 passengers perish, six times as many as on the Titanic. The act is not considered a war-crime. 200 of the passengers were soldiers, the ship was under torpedoboat escort and it boasted ainti-aircraft guns.

http://www.compunews.com/s13/marinesko.jpg

According to some sources S-13, 11 days after, mistakenly torpedoed and sunk hospital ship General Steuber (was also escorted by torpedoboat) that he considered as a troop-transport Emden. Up to 4500 ppl died, 300 survived

[Supe]

Are you trying to tell me that if someone would rape your wife and feed your kids to dogs, you will simply let it go?



If one of your family members raped someone, would you say that the victims's family would be justified in raping one of your family members in return?

In your scenario, I wouldn't be taking my righteous anger out on some bystanding woman or relative of the perpetrator. I would be surprised if most Russian women wanted their menfolk to visit upon other women what had been done to them.

That **** is uncivilised. Those who committed these acts proved they were no better than the Germans, provocation be damned.

[LoveMeister]

@Para
Although it is very true what you write in your latest reply I do not think it really applies to what we are discussing here. You are talking about soldier vs. soldier. At the frontline *no one* is innocent. We discuss Berlin as an isolated incident here and what ticks me off is that even though the Germans indeed 'started it all' the Russians have spend 60+ years running away from the fact that the 2 are from the same mould. Just look at the youngsters on this board who are from Russia. They have been indoctrinated from childhood. At least the Germans have taken the consequence of the horrible things they did in the past and learn their kids it was very wrong indeed what went on back then.


@Supe
You managed to express exactly how I feel about this in far less words than I could myself. The very essence of why I posted here is in your reply.

Cheers

- The LoveMeister

[LoveMeister]

I pressed 'quote' by mistake...

how the hell do I delete a post?

Sorry for the spam here

: (

- The LoveMeister

[Sergei]

How many Soviet Soldiers died in the Ops that lead to the capture of Berlin
(from Seelow heights on?)

From Krivosheev figures - around 78000 dead and wounded from the Battle for Berlin.

[Kilgor]

Its not the "Fall of Berlin"....its LIBERATION of BERLIN.
We liberated it...

That would have to be one of the most truely stupid statements ive ever read, worthy of George Orwells Brother Brother talk.

One dictatorship was removed and another one was installed. A wall was soon contructed to keep millions in place, and to stop mass migration from east to west.

The worst thing about ww2 was the removal of one mass murdering dictator and strengthening of another.

As for the Rape's of berlin.. its a well known fact.
I dont know how many offical quotes from soviet sources have to be brought up, but there are some here that will never accept the drunken looting, rape and killing that went on.

[Sergei]

Quite a lot of those 17 million Soviet civilians that died where not killed by Germans. Many were killed by Soviets or died because of especially ruthless tactics used by the Soviets themselves. So that number is somewhat misleading.

I find the rape discussion absolutely necessary. The German people is usually treated as the sole evil-doer, and is denied who has to call itself a victim. But fact is that Germans were victims, too, not only perpetrators. The rapes conducted by the Soviet army are a reality. As were the massacres. And the victims number millions, that's a fact. Maybe a fact Russians do not want to hear, but still a fact.

And no, Para, there is no understanding for this. There is no excuse and no justification. And it's disgusting of you to hint that there could be.

And, no the Soviet army did NOT liberate Berlin. They represented the Stalinist dictatorship, which is probably the worst tyranny that existed on Earth, ever. The degree of oppression, the cruelty, the numbers of people killed, purged, however you call it surpasses even what Hitler's regime did. Even if one includes the Holocaust.
But be that as it may: as soldiers of a totalitarian state, the Soviets can hardly be said to have liberated anyone. Conquer they can, yes. Liberate they cannot. That is my opinion. One may respect the Soviet soldiers for their bravery, and I certainly respect anyone of them who did behave with honor and compassion, which some of them showed (which excludes all murderers and rapists among them), but I do not feel thankfulnes. That would be too much to ask.

Shacks, I knew nazi revisionism is on the rise, but sinking to this level? :lol:
You reap what you sow, mother f uckers. :backhand:
Your country is the sole reason I didn't have the privilege to talk to my both grandfathers,because they died fighting your scum, and my grandmother is still shaking when she brings the memories of aerial bombing by Luftwaffe, so I **** on any revisionist opinion, especially from the country that started the whole ****.

[Kilgor]

Your country is the sole reason I didn't have the privilege to talk to my both grandfathers,because they died fighting your scum, and my grandmother is still shaking when she brings the memories of aerial bombing by Luftwaffe, so I **** on any revisionist opinion, especially from the country that started the whole ****.

At least your grandfathers survived the forced famines then, millions didnt. Stalin;s war on the kulaks and pesants was as contrived as hitlers war on the jews and equally as murderous and inhumane.

And many in the Ukrane did welcome the german's as liberators after all the death and suffering stalin and his henchman had inflicted on your people.

[2RHPZ]

Another good site:

http://www.vor.ru/English/Victory/header6.jpg (http://www.vor.ru/English/Victory/vict_main.html)

[Igor01]

Regarding the ever-popular myth about the mongoloid orks from the East raping and killing everything in their path (and not necessarily in that particular order), here's a little read from the book of an Australian war correspondent who was in Germany in the final months of the war and after it ended. I posted this a few days earlier but if you haven't seen it yet, it's well worth reading. We must understand the times before rendering a moral judgement or mindlessly repeating whatever the current politically-motivated mantra is.


Source: http://www.argo.net.au/andre/osmarwhiteENFIN.htm

BY THE EYES OF A WAR CORRESPONDENT

Osmar White (1909-1991) was an Australian war correspondent, witnessed action in New Guinea and Solomon Islands and wrote a book about it. From August to November 1944 and till the V-day White was in Europe in the ranks of the 3rd US Army led by famous General George Patton. White’s paper articles and diaries, on the basis of which the book "Conqueror’s Road" was compiled, are very interesting, especially the pages about the soldiers and officers of the Soviet Army and activities of the Soviet occupation administration. His impressions and comments are often quite critical and even offensive for a Russian reader, nevertheless, he is by no means a Russophob. In his notes there are many words of respect and warm feelings to the Russian soldier and Soviet administration in the occupied Berlin. One thing is obvious – he tried to write truth about the war and occupation of Germany. It also refers to many uncomplimentary comments given by White to the behavior of the American soldiers in the defeated Germany.

THE AMERICANS

Long before Allied troops reached the big concentration camps in which death squads specialized in the extermination of Jews and Slavs, and the world learned the meaning of Hitler’s promise to arrive at a "final solution" , the fighting men who stormed into Germany were angry and in vengeful mood. They had learned in France and Belgium, at first hand, of Nazi atrocities; of the mass execution of hostages, senseless burning and beatings, sadistic interrogation of men and women suspected of supporting resistance cells. Few wavered in the conviction that the Germans they killed deserved their fate, or that the survivors had little right to human consideration. Thus, at first the treatment of German civilians was harsh. Eisenhower’s broadcast proclamation - @WE COME AS CONQUERORS" – implied the right of military commanders to requisition whatever accommodation remained intact in half demolished towns. The aged, the sick, the very young, were often driven out into the ruins to fend for themselves.

"The only way to teach these krauts war doesn’t pay is to kick them about the way they kick other people about."

I heard that idea expressed time and again. Conquest tacitly implied the right to booty. The victorious troops appropriated whatever portable enemy property they fancied – liquor and cigars, cameras, binoculars, shotguns and sporting rifles, ceremonial swords and daggers, silver ornaments and plate, and fur garments.

This sort of petty looting was known as "liberating" or "souveniring". Military police looked the other way until the more rapacious liberators, usually support and transport personnel, began to steal expensive motorcars, antique furniture, radio sets, machine tools and other industrial equipment, and devise ingenious means of smuggling the stolen property to the coast from which small craft could ferry it to England. Only after looting became an organized criminal racket when the fighting ceased, did the Military Government step what they wanted and often kicked Germans about in doing it.

Yet I saw few cases of calculated or depraved brutality. The troops felt that they were only handing out rough justice, morally valid retribution, to a race whose armies had plundered Western Europe for nearly five years… One of a few times I saw American soldiers deliberately and soberly smash up a German house was at Erfurt…

After the fighting moved on to German soil there was a good deal of rape by combat troops and those immediately following them. The incidence varied between unit and unit according to the attitude of the commanding officer. In some cases offenders were identified, tried by court martial, and punished. The army legal branch was reticent, but admitted that for brutal or perverted ****** offences against German women, some soldiers had been shot – particularly if they happened to be Negroes. Yet I know for a fact that many women were raped by white Americans. No action was taken against the culprits. In one sector a report went round that a certain very distinguished army commander had made the wisecrack: "Copulation without conversation does not constitute fraternization."

A divisional officer remarked dryly during a discussion of the non-fraternization edict: "This is surely the first in history a serious effort has been made to deny soldiers the use of women in a country they have conquered!"

Probably the most objective and credible account of the situation was given by an intelligent, middle-aged Austrian woman in Bad Homburg. "Yes, of course the soldiers take women"&lt; - she said. "After the occupation of this place we were troubled for many nights by soldiers coming to the doors and asking for Fraulein. Sometimes they forced their way into the houses with kicks and blows. Sometimes the women hid, or escaped."

I asked her if she knew if the women were taken with violence. She thought for a while and replied: "No. I don’t think it often happens like that. Except where soldiers are in a gang. You must remember that your German women these days have not the horror of being taken violently by a man that they had before the Nazis spread their beliefs. They are frightened – yes. But they are more frightened of getting beaten than they are of getting taken by force. You will see. If your soldiers are patient they will not find German women unobliging."

The no-fraternization rule, promulgated as soon as German territory was occupied, never worked. It was absurdly artificial and unforceable. Primarily it was aimed at discouraging the cohabitation of British and American soldiers with German women. But as soon as the fighting was over and troops could settle into semi-permanent billets, a considerable number of officers and other ranks, particularly Military Government personnel, established liaisons with German women; liaisons in every category from common prostitution to genuine and often star-crossed love affairs.

A Berlin washerwoman expressed an opinion: ‘Hitler’s girls will soon take your soldiers to bed and make them forget the orders. They don’t think there’s anything wrong in doing it. They’ll have their fun and laugh and joke afterwards. F---ing doesn’t mean anything any more. You’ll see – before long they’ll be letting Negroes and Jews f---ck them" there was probably some truth in it. Hitler’s immaculate Aryan maiden may have subscribed to the master race teaching of the Nazi ideologies but their puritanical inhibitions did not long survive ****** deprivation.

After a few sordid and pointless courts martial of scapegoats, the no-fraternization rule was eased quietly into limbo… To my knowledge, soldiers who served in the American division which liberated Buchenwald in April were sleeping with German girls by the end of May. They boasted about it.

When the camp itself was cleaned up and converted into a center for DPs, the row of huts in which hundreds of Eastern Europeans had died of disease and starvation was refurnished with looted furniture from Weimar, and used as a brothel. It flourished and supplied the camp with uncounted cases of canned food and cartons of cigarettes bought at the American PX in the town.

ON THE GERMAN ROADS

… Procession of liberated slaves was commonplace o every country road in Germany. They came in knots and files through the spring rain, marching in the long grass or on the shoulders of the roads. In the early days one often say their mutilated bodies where they had trodden on S mines at the approaches to culverts and bridges. But they did not delay. They were free, so they marched – marched anywhere as long as it was out.

The firstcomers were the farm workers. They looked strong and well-enough fed. They wore the rags of all the uniforms of Europe. Some had boots, some clogs, some the gaping wrecks of shoes. Some went barefoot even in the frost, others wrapped their feet in blanket strips and sacking. They were marked by this kind of poverty but they were not in bad physical shape.

As the armies went deeper into Germany the character of the marchers began to change. The processions no longer comprised vigorous – or comparatively vigorous – men. Some limped and were obviously ill and half starved. Women and children were among them. The older women had weather beaten faces and sullen eyes, but the girls gave their liberators gap-toothed smiles. Nearly everyone had a handcart or a baby carriage piled with loot.

Generally speaking, these first slave workers to be freed in the Rhineland displayed no particular personal bitterness against their masters. Even eastern Europeans seemed to have been treated humanely, or at least as valuable as farm animals. I recall vividly one old peasant woman who came out to the commander of a reconnaissance column near Besignheim and begged him to stop her Russian from running away. Her son and husband, she said, had been taken for the Wehrmacht, and without her Russian there would be nobody left to do heavy work about the farm. There would be nobody to plough and sow. In the winter they would all starve.

We had a look at the Russian. He was a lumpy, silent youngster with an expression of subnormal good humor but he was quite determined to run away. He had his bundle of clothes. The old woman had apparently been following him along the road, remonstrating with him.

The tank commander said something unprintable and signaled the column on. When I last saw the queer pair, the woman was sitting in the ditch with her head in her hands, and the Russian was striding purposefully away.

Military government units moved into populated areas as soon as the fighting ceased and they were able, despite the flight of the people who had exerted civil authority, to establish a semblance of order and begin to restore essential services. But when the slave laborers and POWs started to clog the roads in uncounted numbers, looting their way from town to town and village to village, the situation became impossible to control.

Only a small proportion of those who broke out of camps or left the districts to which they had been drafted with the intention of making their own way home succeeded in doing so. They ended up in hastily established refugee centers, barely surviving on starvation rations requisitioned from already inadequate civilian food stocks and living in conditions of indescribable squalor. Elements among the survivors the big concentration camps often banded together to reap a harvest of vengeance on German people who so strenuously denied all knowledge of Nazi atrocities. Sparsely populated areas, until then spared the horrors of war, often suffered grievously at the hands of these criminal gangs.

I remember vividly one miserable hamlet on the Fulda River where I was shown the battered and violated bodies of two children, aged seven and twelve, victims of liquor-maddened Russians who had slaved in the deep salt mines for three years.

IN BERLIN

In the last days of June word came down the line that, under pressure from Washington and London, the Russians had agreed to share the occupation of Berlin with the British and Americans. It was poor recompense for the humiliation of being kept waiting for six weeks, but some consolation that Churchill and Truman had at last shown the guts to put Stalin in his place.

Crack regiment were chosen to put on a show of strength – enough strength to make arrogant Reds think again and give them a bloody nose if they tried to muscle in on more territory. Patton was rumored to be hopping mad and spoiling for a fight.

On 1 July a convoy of eighty jeeps carrying more than two hundred correspondents set out ahead of the troops and arrived in the capital by midmorning. The journey was enlivened by a completely unexpected encounter with the advance guard of the Red Army moving up to replace the Americans in Thuringia. The armoured vehicles and guns of the Western Allies, immaculate in coats of fresh paint, rumbled along at parade-ground intervals.

Compared with these spruce columns converging on the city from the west and north-west, the outbound Russians were a rabble. Their padded cotton jackets were grease stained and threadbare, their transport a hodgepodge of antiquated trucks and horse drawn waggons piled with looted furniture, and more than half of them traveled on foot. They marched beside the autobahn, shepherded by NCOs on tyreless German bicycles. Even the famed Russian artillery pieces were practically invisible under layers of dried mud.

A British correspondent travelling beside me said with near awe in his voice: "Good God, so these are the chappies who slogged all the way from Stalingrad, beating the blazes out of the Jerries all the way!"

These were, indeed, the men of the armies which had fought and beaten two-thirds of Germany’s land forces on the Eastern Front while the magnificently equipped British and Americans had trouble enough dealing with the other third in Normandy, Italy and along the Siegfried Line. They were stocky, hard-faced peasants and herdsmen from the Steppes. They looked inured to hardship and utterly indifferent to the show of mechanised might put on to impress them. Perhaps, I thought, mere machines of war could never in the long run prevail against a peasant truly determined to resist foreign invaders of their homeland…

Two days later the Russians hung an enormous portrait of Stalin on the Brandenburg Tor and Red Army girls were directing the traffic on the Unter den Linden with flagged batons and robotic. Precision.

A voice beside me: "Excuse me, sir, is that Stalin? It is? Ah, handsome, handsome is he not? Have you any spare cigarette butts, sir?"

At the end of my first day in Berlin I was convinced that the city was in its death throes. Human beings could not continue to live in this horrendous garbage heap. But by the end of my first week I was beginning to change my mind. Berliners were getting enough food and water to keep them standing up and, in some residential areas, electric power was available for short periods each day. The wraith of a public transport system had been conjured up to service ration depots and medical aid posts. More and more people were finding employment in public works supervised by the Russians. Thanks to Russian experience in dealing with the problems of their own devastated cities, epidemic diseases were controlled. All in all, I believe that the Soviets in those early days did more to keep Berlin alive than the Anglo-Americans could possibly have done. The Russian method of maintaining order and achieving results in the essentials was not inhibited by humanitarian niceties. They understood mass psychology. They realised that the sooner Berliners could be encouraged to help themselves, the better it would be for all concerned.

Within a few weeks of the surrender they encouraged the publication of newspapers. They restored broadcasting service, permitted the organisation of public entertainments, and announced that they would approve the formation of trade unions and democratic political parties.

Some sort of rational, ongoing arrangement had to be made for the education of millions of children of school age, an education that must not perpetuate the corrupt philosophy of nazism. Typically, the theorists of Western democracy addressed the problem with more righteous zeal than horse sense. No tainted word or phrase should remain in the textbooks used by German schools they declared. The schools must stay closed pending a complete purge of educational literature. The Russians were far more realistic – at least in Berlin. Even before the Western allies took over their zones they encouraged the reopening of primary schools in the least mauled suburbs, employing teachers with no notable track record as Nazi activists. West of the Elbe the reopening of schools was delayed for months.

Radio newspapers, politics, concerts… The Russians had cleverly nurtured regrowth in a desert of misery. They had shown a measure of mercy to the followers of the beast dead in its lair under a mountain of shattered stone. But Berliners didn’t see things that way.

Everywhere there was the same whispered story: "Thank God you British and Americans have come… We cannot tell how glad we are to se you… Russians are animals – ravening animals. The Russians have taken everything I possess, even my change of clothes. They rape and steal and shoot…"

Anti-Russian hysteria was so strident, so many tales of Russian atrocities circulated, that the chief of the Anglo-American public relations bureau saw it fit to summon correspondents to issue a "guidance".

"Remember, - he said, – that there is a strong and concerted movement among the German people to sow seeds of distrust and discord between the Allies. Germans believe that they can gain much by dividing us. I wish to warn you against believing German stories about Russian atrocities without thoroughly checking them."

Anyway, Russophobia was nothing new. The troops had encountered it all the way from the Rhine as they met thousands of panic stricken civilians fleeing westward. The Russians were coming! Anything on God’s earth to escape the Russians! Any heel was better than a Russian heel!

When you singled out individuals from the stampeding mass and questioned them, it almost turned out they had no first hand knowledge of Russians at all. They had been told this. They had heard that – from a friend or a brother or a cousin who had served on the Eastern Front… Certainly Hitler had lied to them. His master-race theories were absurd, his claim that the British were decadent and all Jews subhuman the raving of a disordered mind – but about the Bolsheviks, the Fuhrer had been right!

Goebbels’s propaganda had scored t least one success which would survive the disillusion of defeat. It had instilled into the German people a psychotic fear of the "hordes from the East"/ When the Red Army advanced to the outskirts of Berlin a wave of suicide swept the city.

How much had Russian behavior, as distinct from and unreasoning fear of Bolsheviks, fuelled this orgy of self destruction? I put the question to scores of Berliners of both sexes. Discounted for exaggeration, the picture that emerged was credible. The Red Army overran the city in the white heat of battle, fired by a thirst for vengeance. They destroyed, looted and raped in much the same way as the German Army – by the accounts of Polish refugees – had destroyed, looted and raped Poland and Western Russia four years previously.

The most objective account of Russian behavior came from a middle-aged woman. I took notes of the interview:

Q: You say the Russians behaved very brutally after the fighting. What do you mean by "brutally"?
A: They looted houses, shot anyone who resisted them, and attacked women. They lost all control.

Q: What happened when they looted a house? Can you tell me about a house you saw looted? Did they loot your house?
A: yes, all these flats were looted. After the firing stopped up the street, ten or eleven soldiers came up the stairs and started kicking and beating on the doors. We were afraid to open, so, they broke the locks or kicked them down.

Q: Then what happened?
A: they looked everywhere to see if there were any arms or snipers. Than some of them started pulling open drawers and throwing things about, and others attacked the women.

Q: What do you mean by "attacked"? did they rape the women?
A: Mostly, yes.

Q: All of them? Did all the Russian soldiers rape, or try to rape the women?
A: Not all – most of them. They were drunk. They had bottles of brandy and wine and they were excited – you understand how it would be.

Q: How many women were in this building?
A: There were eight of us, I think. Three were in my flat with me.

Q: Were you raped?
A: No. One of them came at me, but I speak a little Russian and I told him he was drunk and a disgrace to his country. I told him to tell the others to leave the women alone.

Q: Did that stop him?
A: Yes. He was only a boy. He seemed ashamed, but he took all my clothes out of the drawers and wardrobes. He said the Germans had taken all the Russian women’s clothes in 1941, so he didn’t see why he shouldn’t have what he wanted. I didn’t try to stop him.

Q: Didn’t he try to stop the others?
A: they were all drunk. The Russians are terrible when they are drunk. You have no idea what they are like.

Q: How do you know the other women were raped?
A: I saw a Russian rape my friend.

Q: Violently.
A: yes.

Q: But did you actually see what happened to the others?
A: No, but there was no doubt about it. They weren’t lying. It really happened, I assure you.

Q: Wasn’t this just another isolated instance?
A: No, it happened all over Berlin. I am not exaggerating. It really happened. At least half the young women in Berlin have been raped by Russians. The trouble went on for days after the fighting stopped.

Q: Did the Russian officers not try to control their troops?
A: Of course. Most of the officers were very nice. If you could only get to an officer you were usually all right. We heard that some of the soldiers had been caught in the act and shot. But it was no good complaining. If the officers didn’t see it, they wouldn’t believe.

Q: When did this sort of behavior stop?
A: It never did stop entirely. The trouble was the wine and brandy stocks. They should have been destroyed. The troops would get drunk at night and the trouble would start up all over again. They were only really bad when they were drunk. They were different when you got to know them. We were lucky in this district – we had one lot for ten days billeted in this house. We were sorry to see them go, because we were afraid of what would happen when a new lot came in. They were childish, really. Sometimes after trouble they would come in the morning and apologise and ask you not to tell. They would give you some food, just to be friendly and make amends.

Q: You said people were shot. Did you actually see any cases of civilians being shot?
A: A woman I knew up the street was killed.

Q: Did you see her body?
A: yes. Her sister and I buried her in the garden.

Q: Why was she shot?
A: The Russians thought she had a revolver.

Q: had she a revolver?
A: No. She had no revolver.

Baffling people, these Russians! Rape and apology. Theft atoned by gifts of food. The savage sacking of a blasted city and, within days, attempts to rehabilitate it…

White also met Russians in the night clubs of Berlin.

I made a round of cabarets, starting with the notorious Femina near Potsdammerplatz and the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church. The church was so shot up its walls seemed to waver against the sky, but the building that housed the cabaret stood like an island in an ocean of fallen bricks… The evening was mild and damp. The sewer and corpse smell was in the air. The façade of the Femina was covered with futuristic ****s and tinsel announcements in four languages…

The dance floor and tables were crowded with Russian, British and American officers escorting (or hunting for) personable female companions. A bottle of bad wine cost twenty-five dollars, a horsemeat hamburger and potatoes ten dollars, a pack of American cigarettes a breathtaking twenty dollars.

Berlin women had been without cosmetics for more than a year. But inside the Femina cheeks were as delicately tinted and lips as tacky-looking as if Hitler had won his war. A number of women wore sheer silk stockings. A mistress of ceremonies in a sequined dress introduced the floor show in German, Russian, English and French. This provoked a philosophic quip from a captain of Soviet field artillery at the table next to mine. He leaned over and remarked in tolerable English: "So soon from the national to the international! Are not the bombs of your RAF fine professors of foreign languages, no?"

The first turn was a child-dancer… after that a troupe of "Russian" dancers came on. They were so energetic and so popular with the Red Army men that I felt sure they drew supplementary rations as heavy industrial workers…Russian officers made up a fair percentage of the Femina’s male clientele, but a surprising number of able-bodied Germans were there, too. Some of them were industrial technicians, specialists upon whom the Soviet authorities smiled benignly. But who were the rest I did not try very diligently to find out. Pimps, black marketeers, spies… There were probably more ears trained to catch whispered asides in the Femina than in any other establishment of the sort eat of Lisbon or north of the Bosphorus. Ears well-enough trained could command generous hire even in the country of a vanquished enemy. One must always beware of one’s friends…

In the early days of the tripartite occupation of Berlin, correct, if by no means cordial, relations existed between the elements of military government. If one was to believe the official handouts, everybody loved everybody else and all parties were cooperating wholeheartedly in the task of keeping the four million inhabitants of the city fed and putting them to work on reconstruction. But the truth was otherwise and that soon became evident. The Russians had no intention of cooperating with anybody. They appeared to suffer from a malignant inferiority complex which made them increasingly touchy and aggressive when trivial differences of opinion arose over procedures and the allocation of responsibilities. They cheated blatantly in matters of larger concern. Serious friction occurred when they denied their Western partners permission to procure an equitable share of farm produce from the rural belt around the city. This land, they announced was within the Eastern occupation zone allotted to them at Yalta and any food it produced would be distributed only to the population in the parts of the metropolis under Russian control. Since the British and Americans insisted on their right to share in the occupation of the capital, they could make their own arrangements to feed their own dependents from resources farther ahead.

From the beginning it was apparent that Soviet policy aimed to force the Western powers out of Berlin and concede another propaganda victory. Muttering about "kicking the **** out of the Commies" subsided but, there was no fraternisation between off-duty Tommies, Gis and Ivans. Although a certain brittle camaraderie existed between officers patronizing the nightclubs, among other ranks the atmosphere was strained. The Soviet garrison troops were sullenly unfriendly. A high proportion of them were illiterate Asiatic, and the Tommies and Gis decided they were only a bunch of unwashed savages who used bathtubs for latrines…

In bringing order to their zone the Russians thought and acted in terms of the mass. They did not worry about precise justice for the individual. They were chiefly concerned with making every community as near self-supporting as possible in the shortest possible time. Their first thought was to provide productive occupation to everyone capable of working. Neither the expulsion of Germans from areas destined for cession to Poland or Czechoslovakia, nor in relocation of populations when a workable balance between district and district had been upset by influx of war refugees, nor in destruction of industrial plants, were the Soviets constrained by what the British and Americans – or even the French – would call mercy. They rearranged the human herds of Soviet-occupied Germany very much as a rancher would shift herds of cattle or sheep on some draught-stricken tract of pasture – expecting and regretting loss in move from starvation, disease, exhaustion and exposure, but hoping to achieve a minimum overall wastage.

Once active fascists had been rounded up and liquidated in the Russian zone, Stalin’s men were not pernickety enough to waste time and energy on the small fry. They put them to work at the job they were best capable of doing, and in the main rewarded them according to their merits. If later evidence disclosed that some of the people working under the new regime had been enthusiastic Nazis, then they were liquidated without fuss or bother – but not until less suspect workmen became available. The Russians took trouble to preserve for public trial at Nuremberg or elsewhere only war criminals whose punishment would have propaganda value. They dealt with the small-town bullies, low-caliber sadists and cranks, quietly and immediately, not caring too much about possible miscarriages of justice. They were consistent in preferring the proletariat. Rank, wealth or class could gain no privileges for a German under Russian military rule. The only German who could expect preferment was a technician, an expert in some pure or applied science.

It seemed to me that the Russians were the only victors who did not attempt to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds. From what I could see and hear, they were unconcerned with problems of "humanitarianism" as it was defined by the British or the Americans. Nor were they concerned with vengeance for the sake of vengeance. The were sublime egoists, the uncompromising realists. An English-speaking ordinance officer in the Kabarett der Kommiker, the candor of wine in him, told me: "We are pledged to destroy Fascism. German fascism is no worse than any other Fascism. The only country in the world which recognises and destroys Fascism in any disguise is Russia – but it is not a matter of nationality, you know. Nationality is not important to us. We did not hare Germans – or Italians or Chinese or Negroes. Oh no. We do not think Russians are better than other people, except perhaps that Russians have a system which seeks to destroy Fascism. We will make Russia strong and secure – not to impose our will on other peoples but to defend men against Fascism wherever it shows itself. Russia must first be made strong and secure. That is a good sense. That is logic. We have nothing against capitalist democracy, except perhaps that it turns Fascist so easily when something goes wrong with the machinery.’

IN PRAGUE

There is no reign of terror in Prague or any part of Bohemia. Russians are stern realists with the collaborator and the fascist element, but a man whose conscience can go without fear.

The discipline of the Red Army is good. There is no more looting, rape or bullying that in any zone of occupation. Wild stories of brutality arise from magnification and distortion of individual instances, given verisimilitude by the Czechs’ nervousness of the Russian soldiers’ exuberant manners and their liking for vodka… One woman who told me the most hair-rising tales of Russian brutality in Prague was forced in the end to admit that the only evidence she had seen with her own eyes was drunken Russian officers firing pistols into he air or shooting at bottles.

[Supe]

http://www.vor.ru/English/Victory/vict_30.html

http://www.vor.ru/English/Victory/Kalinina3.jpg

One tough lady.

[Kitsune]

@Igor01

A clarification may be in order.
No one said anything about mass rapings in Berlin. The rapes happened during the first six weeks when the Red Army entered Germany. (There was a flare of that before in East Prussia, but the soviets got thrown out again). During these weeks the Soviets raped, looted and pillaged thoughly. Nowhere the German army did something like that, not in that compact way. (In fact, its't the Russians who have a very inflated view of German soldiers raping Russian women. Even the SS did do that rarely, they thought the Russians are subhumans remember? Admittedly, killings of Soviet civilians as punitive measures were another matter.)
In the case of Germany the Soviets let their soldiers loose on German civilians.
I quote Brian Moynahans 'The Claws of the Bear':

"Between four and five million people fled from the eastern German territories, East Prussia, Pomenaria, Silesia and eastern Brandenburg.
Rape awaited those who did not flee. 'Red soldiers during the first weeks of their occupation raped every woman and girls between the ages of twelve and sixty' said a British POW whose camp had been in Pomerania. 'That sounds exaggerated but it is the simple truth'. Flushed with victory and the content of German wine cellars 'the Reds searched every house for women, cowing them with pistols or tommy guns, and carried them into their tanks or half-tracks'. Alexander Solzhenitsyn wrote of the entry of his regiment into East Prussia:'All of us knew very well that if the girls were German they could be raped and then shot. This was almost a combat distinction.'"
Brian Moynahan, "The Claws of the Bear", Chapter 23, p. 191
Between 1 and 2 million German civilians were killed. Millions of women raped, often before the eyes of their children. One million women was deported to the east, a quarter of this number never returned.

I state this, not to start flames, but to counter the idea that the rapes could be just a figment of imagination. They were a reality. Worse than Nanking actually, though, out of some reason, largely unknown to many today.

After some weeks it became apparent to the Soviet leadership that these rapes posed some serious problems to Soviet morale. Plus they annoyed the Western Allies. And they created the danger of an too asymmetric defense of Germany which could have put the Soviets at an disadvantage compared to the Americans. So raping and looting and wanton killing of German civilians was discouraged. When Berlin was taken the incidents were only on the usual Soviet level. Meaning it happened. But not like in the East Territories anymore.

[2RHPZ]

Photos


ФОТОЛЕТОПИСЬ ВЕЛИКОЙ ОТЕЧЕСТВЕННОЙ ВОЙНЫ

Website (http://www.vor.ru/55/Photo_Exhibition/Pic_1251.html)

[He219]

Emboldened by drink, or visceral hatred of the Germans, or by the sense that they were simply taking the prize due to them as the victors, the Soviet soldiers raped countless eastern German girls and women between 18 and 80. The soldiers even raped German Communist women and Russian girls brought to Germany as forced laborers. This was a crime against women so vast and unprecedented that there is still no single word to adequately describe it. Even Cornelius Ryan’s jolting descriptions in The Last Battle pale in comparison to Beevor’s accounts of the scope, savagery and horror of these crimes. His unflinching report is an indictment not just of the men who committed the acts, and of the leaders whose brutality helped trigger these excesses, but also of mankind itself.

Usually, the victims were raped not once but several times, day after day. Playwright Zakhar Agranenko’s diary is quoted: “Red Army soldiers don’t believe in ‘individual liaisons’ with German women. Nine, ten, twelve men at a time-they rape them on a collective basis.”

Beevor quotes an NKVD report of a typical case from East Prussia: “They interrogated…Emma Korn. ‘On 3 February,’ she told them, ‘Front line troops of the Red Army entered the town. In the yard twelve soldiers in turn raped me. Other soldiers did the same to my two neighbors. The following night six drunken soldiers broke into our cellar and raped us in front of the children.”

As the days wore on, the tide of rape continued without ebb. German women either gave in to despair and committed suicide, or attached themselves to Russian officers or noncoms.

The ethical questions all this raises are tough, given the war guilt of the Germans for the Holocaust. True, the rape of Berlin would not have happened had Germany’s own crimes against humanity not gone on for so long. Mass rape, however, can never be excused as an appropriate retribution. Justice for a mass atrocity is not another mass atrocity.

The Soviet Union paid a stiff price for the hatred Stalin and the Communist Party whipped up among its troops. According to Beevor, the conduct of the Red Army was not only a frightful conclusion to the war, but also a catastrophe for the future of communism.

Even after the surrender, Germans, both East and West, identified the Red Army-and by extension the whole Soviet Union-with hideous ****** assault and plunder. In exacting their revenge in 1945, the Russians helped seal the fate of the Soviet empire in 1989.

The Götterdämmerung of the Third Reich in the ruins of Berlin is a disturbing, complex and breathtaking epic of history. Antony Beevor proves himself more than equal to this massive story-telling task. Indeed, as he did with his earlier masterwork Stalingrad, Beevor has set the standard by which all future histories of the capture of Berlin and the end of the war in Europe will be measured.


history101.com (http://history1900s.about.com/library/prm/blrfallofberlin1945.htm)



Red Army troops raped even Russian women as they freed them from camps

"That completely undermined the notion that the soldiers were using rape as a form of revenge against the Germans," he said.

"By the time the Russians reached Berlin, soldiers were regarding women almost as carnal booty; they felt because they were liberating Europe they could behave as they pleased. That is very frightening, because one starts to realise that civilisation is terribly superficial and the facade can be stripped away in a very short time."

Beevor's high reputation as a historian ensures that his claims will be taken seriously. Stalingrad was widely praised and awarded the prestigious Samuel Johnson Prize, the Wolfson Prize for History and the Hawthornden Prize.

His account of the siege of Berlin, however, promises to be more controversial. "In many ways the fate of the women and the girls in Berlin is far worse than that of the soldiers starving and suffering in Stalingrad."

To understand why the rape of Germany was so uniquely terrible, the context is essential. Operation Barbarossa, the Nazi invasion of Russia in 1941, began the most genocidal conflict in history. Perhaps 30 million inhabitants of the Soviet Union are now thought to have died during the war, including more than three million who were deliberately starved in German PoW camps.

The Germans, having shown no quarter, could expect none in return. Their casualties were also on a vast scale. In the Battle of Berlin alone more than a million German soldiers were killed or died later in captivity, plus at least 100,000 civilians. The Soviet Union lost more than 300,000 men.

Against this horrific background, Stalin and his commanders condoned or even justified rape, not only against Germans but also their allies in Hungary, Romania and Croatia. When the Yugoslav Communist Milovan Djilas protested to Stalin, the dictator exploded: "Can't he understand it if a soldier who has crossed thousands of kilometres through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle?"

And when German Communists warned him that the rapes were turning the population against them, Stalin fumed: "I will not allow anyone to drag the reputation of the Red Army in the mud."

The rapes had begun as soon as the Red Army entered East Prussia and Silesia in 1944. In many towns and villages every female, aged from 10 to 80, was raped. Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the Nobel laureate who was then a young officer, described the horror in his narrative poem Prussian Nights: "The little daughter's on the mattress,/Dead. How many have been on it/A platoon, a company perhaps?"

But Solzhenitsyn was rare: most of his comrades regarded rape as legitimate. As the offensive struck deep into Germany, the orders of Marshal Zhukov, their commander, stated: "Woe to the land of the murderers. We will get a terrible revenge for everything."

By the time the Red Army reached Berlin its reputation, reinforced by Nazi propaganda, had already terrified the population, many of whom fled. Though the hopeless struggle came to an end in May 1945, the ordeal of German women did not.

How many German women were raped? One can only guess, but a high proportion of at least 15 million women who either lived in the Soviet Union zone or were expelled from the eastern provinces. The scale of rape is suggested by the fact that about two million women had illegal abortions every year between 1945 and 1948.

It was not until the winter of 1946-47 that the Soviet authorities, concerned by the spread of disease, imposed serious penalties on their forces in East Germany for fraternising with the enemy.

Soviet soldiers saw rape, often carried out in front of a woman's husband and family, as an appropriate way of humiliating the Germans, who had treated Slavs as an inferior race with whom ****** relations were discouraged. Russia's patriarchal society and the habit of binge-drinking were also factors, but more important was resentment at the discovery of Germany's comparative wealth.

The fact, highlighted by Beevor, that Soviet troops raped not only Germans but also their victims, recently liberated from concentration camps, suggests that the ****** violence was often indiscriminate, although far fewer Russian or Polish women were raped when their areas were liberated compared to the conquered Germans.

Jews, however, were not necessarily regarded by Soviet troops as fellow victims of the Nazis. The Soviet commissars had commandeered German concentration camps in order to incarcerate their own political prisoners, who included "class enemies" as well as Nazi officials, and their attitude towards the previous inmates was, to say the least, unsentimental.

As for the millions of Russian prisoners or slave workers who survived the Nazis: those who were not executed as traitors or sent to the Gulag could count themselves lucky. The women among them were probably treated no better than the Germans, perhaps worse.

The rape of Germany left a bitter legacy. It contributed to the unpopularity of the East German communist regime and its consequent reliance on the Stasi secret police. The victims themselves were permanently traumatised: women of the wartime generation still refer to the Red Army war memorial in Berlin as "the Tomb of the Unknown Rapist".

more (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/01/24/wbeev24.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/01/24/ixworld.html)


<img src=http://bilder.bild.t-online.de/BTO/news/2005/03/09/hitler__pilot/ernst__beichl,property=Bild.jpg>

Fähnrich Ernst Beichl († 25) crashed his Focke- Wulff 190 with underslung 500-Kilo-Bomb into a Soviet Pontoon-bridge on April 16, 1945 near Zellin in present-day Poland. 35 German 'Kamikaze' pilots were given the order to fly into 17 various Pontoon-bridges in a futile act of desperation.

<img src=http://bilder.bild.t-online.de/BTO/news/2005/02/08/kriegs__serie/h__j__panzerfaust,property=Bild.jpg>

A German soldier shows a youth how to operate a Panzerfaust 60 (6,1 Kilo/60m range)

<img src=http://bilder.bild.t-online.de/BTO/news/2005/02/15/weltkriegs__serie/bild13,property=Bild.jpg>

A German soldier explains to a woman the 'aufklappbare Visier zielen' leaf-sight of the Panzerfaust 60

April 19th, 1945:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/militaryphotosnet/7736212.jpg

German civilians crowd round a Sherman tank hit during the 1st U.S. Army's capture of Leipzig, Germany, April 19, 1945. The tank was knocked out in an attack by a Hitler Youth armed with a Panzerfaust anti-armour weapon. (AP Photo/William C. Allen)
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Adolf Hitler, left, shakes hands with Alfred Czech, 12-year-old Hitler Youth soldier, after the young veteran of battles in Pomerania and upper and lower Silesia was awarded the Iron Cross (2nd class) for helping rescue 12 German soldiers wounded by Soviet mortar fire. He was flown into Berlin for the award ceremony at Hitler's headquarters in Germany on April 19, 1945.(AP Photo)

<img src=http://bilder.bild.t-online.de/BTO/news/2005/03/13/hitler__held/czech,property=Bild.jpg>

Alfred Czech (72) Hitlers jüngster Held (http://www.bild.t-online.de/BTO/news/2005/03/13/hitler__held/hitler__held__teil__1.html)

April 20th, 1945:

Hitler's Birthday.
US forces take Leipzig.
British forces take Dimelhorf. (wtf)
First Soviet Artillery falls on Berlin.
Deathmarch from Sachsenhausen Concentration Camp.
Last German submarine (U2371, Tye XXIII) put into service.

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/img/23/0,1886,2442967,00.jpg (http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/download/0,1896,2001890,00.gif)
Soviet forces close in on Berlin

After Soviet forces broke through the defenses at Seelower Heights, the German 9th Armee becomes encircled in the forrest near Halbe on April 23rd. What was to follow was an annhialation unprecedented in German history. 60,000 Germans killed with 120,000 taken prisoner. This is also the location for Germany's largest War cemetary, for German soldiers.

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/img/8/0,1886,2434856,00.jpg

After the battle of Seelower Heights 20,000 German soldiers managed to link up with Armee Wenck. This was the remaining group Hitler ordered to fight off the encirclement of Berlin.

Armee Wenk managed to fight to Potsdam in Germany's last offensive of WWII. At Beelitz they linked up with the survivors of Halbe. Together with the 9th Armee they headed toward the river Elbe. General Wenk decided to ignore Hitler's last order (to fight to the death) and negotiates a surrender with American forces. 118,000 German soldiers, mostly 16 and 17 years old, are handed over to the Red Army for their march into Soviet Gulags.

[Igor01]

Quoting the "accomplished historian" Beevor? Tsk, tsk, tsk...

"Fall of Berlin 1945" is not a serious factual study by historian a but a commercial product by a journalist with author's sympathies clearly placed with Germans. He is very liberal with his material-checking and cheerfully accepts unconfirmed "facts" and heresay as long as they fall well within the Party Line. Just a couple of reader's reviews from Barns & Noble's site:

Waclaw Szymanski, A reviewer, November 20, 2002,
Deceitful and patronizing
The entire book is based on memoirs, interviews and other such folklore, which for a serious historian is about just as valuable as yesteryear’s snow. Time and time again the reader is subjected to a barrage of curious but uninformative personal recollections expertly served under the author’s own sauce. Ilya Ehrenburg – a Jewish Soviet journalist and a writer is mentioned on numerous occasions by Beevor as the principal instigator of the alleged atrocities committed by the Soviet troops in Germany. Being a journalist himself, Anthony Beevor seriously believes that a freelance journalist was responsible for the Red Army attitude toward the Germans. On top of that Beevor is quoting what he believes to be Ehrenburg’s articles from wartime Soviet newspapers. Anthony Beevor incorrectly attributes the following quote to Ilya Ehrenburg: “Do not count days; do not count miles. Count only the number of Germans you have killed. Kill the German - this is your mother's prayer. Kill the German - this is the cry of your Russian earth. Do not waver. Do not let up. Kill.” [p. 169] Without giving specific sources (a common problem with his book), Beevor insists that this is a quote from an article published by Ehrenburg in 1942. This is an apparent reference to the article by Ehrenburg entitled “About Hatred” and published in the “Red Star” newspaper in 1942. (Without providing a source, it seems that Mr. Beevor expects his reader to deduce this information on his own. This is the same so-called quote Beevor used in his “Stalingrad”.) However, if one would to look at the original article (and not just one of many “imitation” Ehrenburg articles prepared by Goebbels and his propaganda ministry), one would be hard pressed to find anything even remotely similar to the text quoted by Beevor. In fact, Ehrenburg’s article is completely opposite in word and spirit to what Mr. Beevor would like his readers to believe: “We do not dream of revenge: can revenge really quench our indignation? Soviet people will never fall to the level of fascists, they will never torture children and wounded. We are looking for something different: only justice can lessen our pain. Nobody can bring back to life the children of Kerch. Nobody can erase from our memory things we lived through. We decided to destroy the fascists: justice demands this. Our understanding of kindness, brotherhood and humanity demands this.” In the same article Ehrenburg writes: “If the German soldier puts down his weapon and surrenders we won’t lay a finger on him – he will live. Perhaps the future Germany will reeducate him, turn a mindless killer into a worker and a human being. Let German teachers think about this. We are thinking about other things: our land, our work, our families. We have learned to hate because we know how to love.” Understandably, these passages knock the wind out of Beevor’s neat little theory about hordes of unwashed Ivans rampaging through countryside Rhineland in search of things to steal, rape and burn. Beevor did not bother to check his sources because he liked them just as they came to him. This is just one of many examples. The quotes offered by Anthony Beevor in his book are of questionable origins. Sometimes, as we can see, these quotes are not just grossly inaccurate but are completely bogus. The author did not go through the trouble to verify his sources because the information he thought he had nicely supported his distorted view of the Soviet people and the Red Army. In his book Beevor presented this biased view to his readers to be swallowed whole without any questions. Not this time, thank you very much.

Serge Lyubomudrov, an ex-historian from Chicago, September 11, 2002,
Sprechen Du Russki?
'The Fall of Berlin 1945' by A. Beevor suffers from two major maladies: an absence of thorough editing and proofreading attention complicated by an infection of overzealous German sympathizing tendencies. First, a few examples of the former. Misspelled Russian names abound--Kovakchuk instead of Kovalchuk (p. 170); Tsynbaluk instead of Tsymbaluk (p. 244); Kovaleski instead of Kovalevski (p. 306). East-West and eastward-westward are transposed (pp. 16, 256, 258-259, 328). The author demonstrates an inability to combine text fragments borrowed from diverse sources. Take, for example, the paragraph that begins "The fortunes of war still favored . . ." (bottom of p. 238). What have dirty weapons to do with the rest of that paragraph? Another lapse: Soviet Ambassador V. Dekanozov returned to the embassy just after dawn on 22 June 1941, not 1942, as the author states (p. 304). Finally (sadly not least), a bibliographic snafu: Nikolai Vasiliev is listed twice--initially under his first name (p. 471), then under his surname (p. 474). Taken individually, perhaps, these errors could slide under the editorial radar as "minor" oversights. Collectively, however, they bespeak gross journalistic and historical neglect. So much for accuracy. The book's more damaging weakness lies with Herr Beevor's flagrantly biased German sympathizing. (No, not Nazi sympathizing, Gott behüte!) Clearly the book is written from the German point of view. In a (token?) nod to journalistic balance, perhaps, the author mentions atrocities committed by SS and Wehrmacht on occupied Soviet territories. But wait, read more carefully: The SS "liberated" a town "occupied by" the Red Army. Katyusha strike was "akin to shooting hostages in response to a partisan attack" (p. 321)--excuse me? Here's another bit of objectivity that missed its mark: French POWs were "reluctant to work" and were "escaping their camps, usually to visit German women" (p. 179). (Those Frenchmen, what one can expect!) It gets better: Zhukov didn't care about Hitler's birthday (p. 255). Why should he--to send a postcard? And better (or worse): Who cares what dress Eva Braun was wearing or whether Adolf gave her a big sloppy kiss? Coincidentally (??!) all German names are spelled correctly. Dankeschön! Unfortunately, it seems Mr. Beevor failed to do what his beloved Germans call Quellenkritik (that is, criticizing the source). Take the above-cited passage about the French prisoners. It sure sounds like somebody's personal opinion, spell that s-t-e-r-e-o-t-y-p-e. (Frenchmen are lazy and think of nothing but you-know-what.) By invoking such a prejudiced view, the author further casts his bias into sordid relief. Does he really believe such allegations? Does he have evidence to support such rumors (police reports, for example)? Even if true, why should French prisoners work enthusiastically for their captors? The author's compassion seems clearly aligned with those courageous and virtuous Frenchmen from the "Charlemagne" SS division. Here we have true representatives of the Arian race, indeed! No doubt Communism should have been stopped . . . but with SS?! Sadly, the author appears overdosed on Zhukov's "memoirs," and, consequently, overrates his popularity after the war. In another anti-Russian diatribe, Mr. Beevor obsesses over looting and rape committed by the Red Army. Indeed, Soviet soldiers were no knights in shining armor. But then, neither were American, British and French soldiers. (Only once does he allude to looting Americans.) Were no German women raped in the West part of Germany? (Haven't you heard about the incidents of NATO-led peace force soldiers in Kosovo accused of rape?) On the other hand, what gave Americans cause for revenge in 1945? Germany neither invaded the United States nor bombed Washington, D.C. But, again, what about the Brits and the French? Overall diagnosis of 'The Fall of Berlin'? It's not the work of a historian but, rather, the misbred product of a biased journalist. The whole book could be summarized by its single quote: "My God!" said a companion of Kee [the British POW]. "I'll forgive the Russians absolutely anything they do to this country when they arrive. Absolutely anything" (pp. 41-42).

[2RHPZ]

http://www.czech-tv.cz/program/porady/1131009875/foto/204382526600001_01.jpg

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[2RHPZ]

Prague uprising May 1945

http://www.czech-tv.cz/program/porady/873537/foto/9524281_4.jpg

http://www.czech-tv.cz/program/porady/873537/foto/9524282_3.jpg

http://www.czech-tv.cz/program/porady/873537/foto/9524282_1.jpg

...more... (http://www.czech-tv.cz/program/873537-24.04.2005-16:25-1.html)

[2RHPZ]

Messerschmitt Me-262 Schwalbe

Photogallery (http://www.rozhlas.cz/wwii/technika_nemecko/_galerie/162943?type=image&pozice=1)

http://www.rozhlas.cz/wwii/rozhlas/_obrazek/00275081.jpeg
unguided antiarcraft rocket DWM R4M 55 mm Orkan

Prague uprising (http://www.rozhlas.cz/wwii/rozhlas/_galerie/155530?type=image&pozice=1) photogallery 1

Prague uprising (http://www.rozhlas.cz/wwii/rozhlas/_galerie/150671?type=image&pozice=1) photogallery 2

Czechoslovakian bunkers (http://www.rozhlas.cz/wwii/osvobozeni/_galerie/154484?type=image&pozice=1)

U.S. aircrafts over Protektorate Czech und Mahre (http://www.rozhlas.cz/wwii/osvobozeni/_galerie/154483?type=image&pozice=1)

http://www.rozhlas.cz/_obrazek/00262408.jpeg

[2RHPZ]

Slovak uprising 1944 (http://www.rozhlas.cz/wwii/osvobozeni/_galerie/150665?type=image&pozice=1)

http://www.rozhlas.cz/_obrazek/00218444.jpeg

Op Market-Garden (http://www.rozhlas.cz/wwii/lide_britanie/_galerie/133984?type=image&pozice=1)

http://www.rozhlas.cz/_obrazek/00229360.jpeg

Pacific theatre (http://www.rozhlas.cz/wwii/technika_usa/_galerie/141223?type=image&pozice=1)

http://www.rozhlas.cz/_obrazek/00234459.jpeg
USS Nautilus periscop view onto burning Japanese carrier Soryu in Midway June 4th 1942

Japanese "blitzkrieg" (http://www.rozhlas.cz/wwii/technika_japonsko/_galerie/143039?type=image&pozice=1)

http://www.rozhlas.cz/_obrazek/00248625.jpeg
The model of Pearl Harbor

[LoveMeister]

Quoting the "accomplished historian" Beevor? Tsk, tsk, tsk...

Please pay attention to what people write. I did not quote Beevor - simply pointed some of our less literate readers towards a 'starter' book on the subject. I even called it 'pretty easy to understand'.

I don't know if your handle is fabricated or if you indeed are Russian. If the latter is the case then it is obvious that you are a product of your society (read my other posts if you are in doubt what I mean).
I don't know how you would conduct historical research but I certainly would look in old archives and as a close second *talk to anyone who might still be alive and were actually present back then*. How else would you do it? Are you one of those guys who claim there was no Holocaust? I mean... All there is left are some ruins somewhere in east Europe and a few old geezers telling wild and crazy stories... Think about it man. You and I know the Holocaust really did happen. Why is it so difficult to accept that the Red army acted totally like animals and Berlin certainly wasn't 'liberated'? Your ignorance amazes me if you cannot agree with me here.

As for the 'reviewers' you come up with:
I don't know the first one but we all know where Serge Lyubomudrov stands on things don't we?

Cheers

- The LoveMeister

[2RHPZ]

Great picture"


n old C-47 dropping a platoon of war reinactors
Taken at the 60th anniversary of the Battle of the Bulge

http://tn8.deviantart.com/100/fs6.deviantart.com/i/2005/077/2/c/Drop___Withoutremorse_by_YBA.jpg
Hi-res (http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs6/i/2005/023/6/2/Drop_by_WithoutRemorse.jpg)

[Igor01]

Please pay attention to what people write. I did not quote Beevor - simply pointed some of our less literate readers towards a 'starter' book on the subject. I even called it 'pretty easy to understand'.

Please use some common sense, if a source is flawed by being biased and poorly-researched, the "easy to understand" part hardly makes it a "starter" book worth recommending. Otherwise why not refer "our less literate readers" to Suvorov's opus or simply straight to Goebbels' National Ministry for Public Enlightenment and Propaganda, they sure had a lot of very easy to understand material.


I don't know if your handle is fabricated or if you indeed are Russian. If the latter is the case then it is obvious that you are a product of your society (read my other posts if you are in doubt what I mean).

I am Russian and it matters not to me whatever "product of society" label you may wish to attach to me in your mind, you are certainly entitled to an opinion and I will not come down to your level by doubting your personal integrity rather than discuss the opinions you express.



? Are you one of those guys who claim there was no Holocaust? I mean... All there is left are some ruins somewhere in east Europe and a few old geezers telling wild and crazy stories... Think about it man. You and I know the Holocaust really did happen. Why is it so difficult to accept that the Red army acted totally like animals and Berlin certainly wasn't 'liberated'? Your ignorance amazes me if you cannot agree with me here.

It's quite understandable why you would try to employ the age-old venerable technique of "smoked and mirrors" and shift the discussion offtopic to my alleged Holocaust denial (quite wrong by the way, but it's irrelevant). As far as Soviets "acting totally like animals and Berlin wasn't liberated" - you clearly associate yourself (conciously or otherwise) with the opposing side and as such have no problem dehumanizing the Soviets, so I can see why it's not "difficult (for you) to accept".

I am not saying no atrocities or crimes were commited, I am simply suggesting that the sensationalist claims of millions of raped German women have no documented basis and from the many accounts I've seen rapes were severely punished in the Red Army, with executions of the perpetrators before their unit not being unheard of. No such permission to rape and pillage (explicit or otherwise) was given to Soviet soldier, it is necessary to remember that the Red Army (as any other institution of the brutal Soviet system) left no room for liberal behaviour other than whatever was explicitly authorized (the famous "trophey-taking" was at one time allowed but at other times could result in severe punishment). It's also necessary to remember the there were Political Officers in every unit from the Company level up who often had their snitches among the personnel, a soldier could not hope to conceal his actions for long.

If we however disregard the fact that the Red Army soldiers functioned within a well organized and tightly-controlled military force but instead view them as unruly hoards of barbaric animals who threatened the very survival of delicate European culture rather than liberated much of Europe from the Nazi rule, and if we are willing to accept "revelations" by less then scripulous "historians" like Beevor then I suppose books like his are perfectly recommendable "good start".

Let's just not get surprised when in 20 years youth will firmly believe that "... the unfortunate outcome of the WWII was brought on by the series of mistakes and bad choices that led to the tragic situation when instead of uniting their forces against the common enemy of the civilized West - the Soviet Union, the allies [the word will have quite a different meaning then] were forced to fight each other while Stalin was allowed to spread the dark cloak of Soviet terror and oppression over much of the Eastern and Central Europe for decades." But then it looks like we're already halfway there.

[foxtrot023]

double post

[foxtrot023]

There are no firm numbers for the amount of rapes committed. Some figures, based from interviews with german doctors place the number of 100,000 raped women just in Berlin. If that number can be extrapolated to Eastern Germany (but not proved) that amount can increase considerably.

References:
The Ruso German War, p.544,
Documents on the Expulsion of the germans from Eastern Central Europe, Feis, Churchill Roosevelt Stalin, p.635,
Jahn, Pommersche Passion, p.113
Djilas, Conservations with Stalin, p.82
The last one speaks on rapes committed by russian troops in Yugoslavia (an ally) 121 rapes and 111 murders committed in a few days in a small part of yugoslavia. (Djilas, Conservations with Stalin, p.82)

Of course, all of this pales when compared to the atrocities committed by the nazis in the USSR.

[nahimov]

There are no firm numbers for the amount of rapes committed. Some figures, based from interviews with german doctors place the number of 100,000 raped women just in Berlin. If that number can be extrapolated to Eastern Germany (but not proved) that amount can increase considerably.

References:
The Ruso German War, p.544,
Documents on the Expulsion of the germans from Eastern Central Europe, Feis, Churchill Roosevelt Stalin, p.635,
Jahn, Pommersche Passion, p.113
Djilas, Conservations with Stalin, p.82
The last one speaks on rapes committed by russian troops in Yugoslavia (an ally) 121 rapes and 111 murders committed in a few days in a small part of yugoslavia. (Djilas, Conservations with Stalin, p.82)

Of course, all of this pales when compared to the atrocities committed by the nazis in the USSR.

Any data on how many rapes were commited by other allied troops like US, UK, Australia, Canada?

[2RHPZ]

Nothing special but very rare picture, scaned personal one:

http://ic1.deviantart.com/fs6/i/2005/073/b/4/Walking_space__opening_photo__by_Usstan_uil_ilythiiri.jpg

[foxtrot023]

There are no firm numbers for the amount of rapes committed. Some figures, based from interviews with german doctors place the number of 100,000 raped women just in Berlin. If that number can be extrapolated to Eastern Germany (but not proved) that amount can increase considerably.

References:
The Ruso German War, p.544,
Documents on the Expulsion of the germans from Eastern Central Europe, Feis, Churchill Roosevelt Stalin, p.635,
Jahn, Pommersche Passion, p.113
Djilas, Conservations with Stalin, p.82
The last one speaks on rapes committed by russian troops in Yugoslavia (an ally) 121 rapes and 111 murders committed in a few days in a small part of yugoslavia. (Djilas, Conservations with Stalin, p.82)

Of course, all of this pales when compared to the atrocities committed by the nazis in the USSR.

Any data on how many rapes were commited by other allied troops like US, UK, Australia, Canada?

I think it is covered earlier in this posts. I don't have in hand the references, but there were rape cases by the nationalities you mention as well.

[Para]

I always find it a bit odd that their all these statistic's for the ****** attacks by the Russians on the Germans but not one figure for the German attacks on the Russians. Or they trying to say the Germans never did any thing of this nature or that they never left any one alive to complain.

[Drako]

I don't get it... On last 2 pages there's an argue about who raped more and who was justified to do so and who not and that's just wrong. Both Germans and Soviets were raping women. And I bet it was commited by ther armies as well. No matter who did it - it was WRONG and shouldn't have happened.

[Igor01]

I wish life really were that simple Drako.

[foxtrot023]

I don't get it... On last 2 pages there's an argue about who raped more and who was justified to do so and who not and that's just wrong. Both Germans and Soviets were raping women. And I bet it was commited by ther armies as well. No matter who did it - it was WRONG and shouldn't have happened.

Of course it is wrong. Likewise what the nazis did to fellow human beings is beyond description, so evil it was. That is the human race for you, capable of doing great things, create beauty, and of course capable of the worst crap you can imagine.

[nahimov]

I don't get it... On last 2 pages there's an argue about who raped more and who was justified to do so and who not and that's just wrong. Both Germans and Soviets were raping women. And I bet it was commited by ther armies as well. No matter who did it - it was WRONG and shouldn't have happened.

It is absolutly WRONG I agree but complaining about 60 years later will not make it right. Especially if you complain about one side only. I would understand if the whole topic stated: Armies in WWII commited rapes and it is WRONG. But instead we got Russian army commited rapes. That just starts flame wars and nothing else.

[Drako]

My point is that whole argue: "who raped more" and "who had the right to do so" is plain stupid because noone had that right.

@Dima:
Revenge would be understandable (not acceptable!) if it was commited on those who were responsible not on civilians who were in Germany and had never seen a Russian before.

[Para]

Now reading the few threads I am beginning to wonder just what side started all these wars, and who started killing the people as being sub human. Perhaps if they had not started it none of this would have happened.

[Kitsune]

@para:

Yeah that's just typical. Thanks. The usual crap. Yes. Both Worldwars were just started by the Germans. All others were completely innocent. Had zero to do with it. So the damn Krauts deserved what they got. Women and children included. They are damn huns, too, after all.

You know, they say one should respect the old. So I better stop, before I say something I might regret.

[Drako]

Now reading the few threads I am beginning to wonder just what side started all these wars, and who started killing the people as being sub human. Perhaps if they had not started it none of this would have happened.

Germans started it, but it doesn't mean that german women and children deserved what happened to them. Neither did Russian people. Neither did Poles (I guess that Dima will pop-up and claim otherwise) or French or Czechs or Ukrainians or any other people.

Don't measure people by their nationality. My grandgrandfather was saved by a German who risked his and his family's lifes to do that. That German and his family ate with the "subhuman" at the one table for couple of ears. That German arranged my grandgrandfather's meeting with my grandgrandmother and my grandmother who was a child back then - he brought them to Germany just for that. So please don't tell me that all of them deserved to be killed.

[2RHPZ]

Modern WWII (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/2641393/) wallpaper 1

Wallpaper II (http://www.deviantart.com/view/5450350/)

Wallpaper III (http://www.deviantart.com/view/5521377/)

[LoveMeister]

Please use some common sense, if a source is flawed by being biased and poorly-researched, the "easy to understand" part hardly makes it a "starter" book worth recommending. Otherwise why not refer "our less literate readers" to Suvorov's opus or simply straight to Goebbels' National Ministry for Public Enlightenment and Propaganda, they sure had a lot of very easy to understand material.


I have absolutely no problem referring to someone as 'less literate' if they write what the fellows here did. Being the educated man you obviously are reading stuff like that must send chills down your spine.
Beevors book might be less sound in regard to historical facts but the interviews are good enough. I agree it might be biased because no Russian soldier (as far as I remember) have been interviewed. I think it's wrong to disregard this book as downright bad just because some facts regarding troop movement is incorrect.



I am Russian and it matters not to me whatever "product of society" label you may wish to attach to me in your mind, you are certainly entitled to an opinion and I will not come down to your level by doubting your personal integrity rather than discuss the opinions you express.

How nice.



It's quite understandable why you would try to employ the age-old venerable technique of "smoked and mirrors" and shift the discussion offtopic to my alleged Holocaust denial (quite wrong by the way, but it's irrelevant). As far as Soviets "acting totally like animals and Berlin wasn't liberated" - you clearly associate yourself (consciously or otherwise) with the opposing side and as such have no problem dehumanizing the Soviets, so I can see why it's not "difficult (for you) to accept".

I am not sure I understand what you mean by 'Smoked and Mirrors'. Please elaborate.
I have just re-read what I originally posted and I am at a loss as to why you think I 'accuse' you of holocaust denial. Isn't it obvious that I try to get my point across by taking your statement a step further?
Don't for one second put me on the side of the Germans. As I stated in previous posts I seem to be the only one who have compassion for those innocents caught in the middle of all this. I think both side totally lack that. The Russians and Germans (back then) was from the same mould. Both lacking any real human values - but only Germany have come clean. Only Germany have said 'Yes we were right bastards'. I miss that statement from Russia. By being a product of your society I mean that you can accept the fact that millions of non-combatants died and even more million suffered as a direct consequence of the fighting for Berlin and you STILL call it 'to liberate'. West Berlin blossomed post war but east Berlin still up to this day is a under developed dump. Liberation? I think not.



I am not saying no atrocities or crimes were committed,...


Good we agree then. I'll disregard the last bit.

Cheers

- The LoveMeister

[Supe]

. No matter who did it - it was WRONG and shouldn't have happened.

Exactly. Nor can it be justified. ever.

[Para]

There is all this talk about the fall of Berlin an how the Germans suffered but not a comment on the Battles at Stalingrad or Moscow. I still think that threads are inclined to concentrate on the suffering of the German people to exclusion of every one else. We had one one a couple months ago saying how badly they had been treated by allied bombing yet no one seemed acknowledge the fact that this sort of aerial warfare had been introduced by the Germans to try and cow the civilian population into surrender, and when you tried to point this out, all you got was to wrongs don't make right. Yet I can tell you one thing if you had been one of those that had been bombed for a couple years until you where strong enough to start hitting back you might just see things in different light. Now before all sitting down to start spitting venom at me just sit there for a few minutes and try and think just how you would act if you had been there and and suffered like the people of day. I know for a lot of you this might be hard concept for being young you know all the answers as you have read all the books and watched the films, there fore you know far more about what happened and what things where like than the people that where there.

[M1A2U2]

just saw Downfall. Great movie

[Kitsune]

There is all this talk about the fall of Berlin an how the Germans suffered but not a comment on the Battles at Stalingrad or Moscow. I still think that threads are inclined to concentrate on the suffering of the German people to exclusion of every one else.

Hmmm. If that were so you would be right. But since when is there much talk about the suffering of German civilians and not about non-Germans? Where do you live? England? To my impression in England there is much talk about the suffering of non Germans, preferably English civilians and zero talk about what German civilians had to go through. There is much talk about German warcrimes, literally zero talk about non German warcrimes. But perhaps you live in a very odd corner of England.
Of course, if i would have been there, like you were, then I might indeed fell within the rapist and murdering segment of the Red Army more than with their victims. But somehow I doubt it.
(You were in England during the time right? And read about what happened in Germany back then, right? Well, so did I. Only some years after you. Perhaps, when it comes down to it, you may not know so much more about it then I do.)
Frankly, Para. You might be a compassionate and understaning man. But you should ask yourself wether your compassion and understanding is somewhat misplaced.

[Lokos]

From a moralistic stand point, the suffering of German civilians was horrifying and wrong etc. etc. From a realistic stand point, they brought the hands of vengeance on themselves. Which stand point suits you better is the only question you should be asking yourselves. Neither is invalid.

Lokos

[Mr.K]

conclusion : wars are wrong.

[BlackFlag]

wooooooooooo hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[Para]

Kitsune,
I lived during the war just south of London and I am fully aware of what both sides did during this conflict. I was out in Germany shortly after the war and saw the devastation for myself, and I went out some German girls. My argument is that there are two sides to all these stories and in these threads all we are seeing are the complaints from the Germans and the Japanese on how badly they where treated. Yet I can't help but wonder just how we would have been treated had the German won the war. Lets face it they got a far better deal of most their victors than they ever gave any one else.

[AN_TPS_63A]

Quite a lot of those 17 million Soviet civilians that died where not killed by Germans. Many were killed by Soviets or died because of especially ruthless tactics used by the Soviets themselves. So that number is somewhat misleading.

I find the rape discussion absolutely necessary. The German people is usually treated as the sole evil-doer, and is denied who has to call itself a victim. But fact is that Germans were victims, too, not only perpetrators. The rapes conducted by the Soviet army are a reality. As were the massacres. And the victims number millions, that's a fact. Maybe a fact Russians do not want to hear, but still a fact.

And no, Para, there is no understanding for this. There is no excuse and no justification. And it's disgusting of you to hint that there could be.

And, no the Soviet army did NOT liberate Berlin. They represented the Stalinist dictatorship, which is probably the worst tyranny that existed on Earth, ever. The degree of oppression, the cruelty, the numbers of people killed, purged, however you call it surpasses even what Hitler's regime did. Even if one includes the Holocaust.
But be that as it may: as soldiers of a totalitarian state, the Soviets can hardly be said to have liberated anyone. Conquer they can, yes. Liberate they cannot. That is my opinion. One may respect the Soviet soldiers for their bravery, and I certainly respect anyone of them who did behave with honor and compassion, which some of them showed (which excludes all murderers and rapists among them), but I do not feel thankfulnes. That would be too much to ask.

I've heard this morning in the radio that more than 80 % german population consider fell of nazi germany a liberation. There was lot of crimes by all allied sides , (dresden, hamburg, russian rapes, lootings) but it was a german army who made barbaric standards on the eastern front, and what they will expect? A mercy? At least russians didn't considered german people subhuman who should either became slave race or dissappear from the earth. That's a big difference.

[AN_TPS_63A]

Kitsune,
I lived during the war just south of London and I am fully aware of what both sides did during this conflict. I was out in Germany shortly after the war and saw the devastation for myself, and I went out some German girls. My argument is that there are two sides to all these stories and in these threads all we are seeing are the complaints from the Germans and the Japanese on how badly they where treated. Yet I can't help but wonder just how we would have been treated had the German won the war. Lets face it they got a far better deal of most their victors than they ever gave any one else.

Well they got the good deal beacouse probably western powers felt guilty about Versailles and harsh condition imposed on germany, and they never equalised nazi regime with german nation.

[AN_TPS_63A]

This one is out of sequence, but worthy of address ..

The Capitulation of Königsberg (http://kriegsende.ard.de/pages_std_lib/0,3275,OID1084280,00.html)

Königsberg, Capitol of East Prussia. Many Berliners and Western Germans fled to Königsberg in the East to escape Allied bombing. On August 27-30, 1944, 4,000 people died in multiple RAF bombing raids that destroyed the historic city center. The Königsberg Castle and its historic Bernsteinzimmer was laid to ashes using phosphorus incindeary bombs. The historic dome burnt down to it's foundations.

However, it's modern military fortifications and bunkers fared well throughout the bombing. People believed it impossible for the Red Army to take their capital. Nazi propaganda declared not a single Soviet Soldier would cross the borders of the Reich.

January 12th, 1945:

Over one million Soviet soldiers launch the offensive to capture East Prussia with the goal of cutting the land escape route to the west. The Red Army closes in a weeks time to within 40 km of Königsberg.

January 21, 1945:

The City-Kommandant General Otto Lasch orders women, children and non-combatant males to leave the city. The next day the last train to Berlin departs with refugees. Thereafter, all land links are captured by the Soviets. For the remainder, the only escape is a 50 km ocean voyage to the nearby harbor of Pillau. Even this escape is cut off and Soviet forces start shelling the city on January 21st, 1945.

http://kriegsende.ard.de/container/ndr_style_images_default/0,2299,OID1155974,00.jpg

Soviets forces appear to have overestimated the strength of the defenders and hold off with an assault, first engaging the 4th German Army to the southwest of the city. City life normalises for the next two months under the protection of 40,000 defenders.

http://kriegsende.ard.de/container/ndr_style_images_default/0,2299,OID1088398,00.jpg

A last dangerous breakout is made with civilians escaping through a narrow corridor to the port of Pillau under artillery bombardment. There, chaos ensues as families are separated in search of transport by ship. Men of fighting age are separated or executed if they refused. Some even make the dangerous route back to Königsberg.

http://www.feldgrau.com/wilhelm-map.jpg
http://kriegsende.ard.de/container/ndr_style_images_default/0,2299,OID1088322,00.jpg
http://kriegsende.ard.de/container/ndr_style_images_default/0,2299,OID1061252,00.jpg
http://kriegsende.ard.de/container/ndr_style_images_default/0,2299,OID1061244,00.jpg
The 25,000 ton steamer "Wilhelm Gustloff (http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,grossbild-161975-339095,00.html)"
http://kriegsende.ard.de/container/ndr_style_images_default/0,2299,OID1127830,00.jpg

Shortly after 9pm on January 30, 1945, the steamer Wilhelm Gustloff, under escort by German Torpedoboat T-36, is sunk by Soviet Kommandant Alexander Marinesko and his submarine S-13 who mistakes it as a troop-transport. The torpedoboat immediately debth-charges and severely damages the Soviet sub.

9,000 of the 10,200 passengers perish, six times as many as on the Titanic. The act is not considered a war-crime. 200 of the passengers were soldiers, the ship was under torpedoboat escort and it boasted ainti-aircraft guns.

http://www.compunews.com/s13/marinesko.jpg
http://kriegsende.ard.de/container/ndr_style_images_default/0,2299,OID1061258,00.jpg
Soviet memorial for Alexander Marinesko.

March 4th, 1945: The 4th German Army falls and the Soviet assault on the city begins April 6th. The city is subjected to three days of ferocious bombardment. One last attempt is made to escape on the night of the 9th. The plan fails.

http://kriegsende.ard.de/container/ndr_style_images_default/0,2299,OID1088416,00.jpg

Within his bunker under the paradeground, General Lasch decides to surrender the garrison despite Adolf Hitler's insistence of fighting on until the last person. Once Hitler hears of the plans to capitulate, General Lasch is sentenced to death and hung. Königsberg is almost completely destroyed.

The plight doesn't end for the city's inhabitants. After the fall of the city they are subjected to fear, desiese and famine. Things only improved when in May of 1946 the Soviets allowed the return of civil administration.

In June of 1946 the city is re-named Kaliningrad by the Soviets. Forced deportation follows and the region is ethnically cleansed of German inhabitants. East Prussia is divided between Poland and Russia, thereafter known as Kaliningrad Oblast.



Shortly after 9pm on January 30, 1945, the steamer Wilhelm Gustloff, under escort by German Torpedoboat T-36, is sunk by Soviet Kommandant Alexander Marinesko and his submarine S-13 who mistakes it as a troop-transport. The torpedoboat immediately debth-charges and severely damages the Soviet sub.

9,000 of the 10,200 passengers perish, six times as many as on the Titanic. The act is not considered a war-crime. 200 of the passengers were soldiers, the ship was under torpedoboat escort and it boasted ainti-aircraft guns.

Well i've seen program about this on discovery channel, and IIRC conclusion was that a "Marinesko was just doing his job", he was just chasing big military target in the dark, no war crime. For the victims, i can only imagine their terrible suffering, and those agonising moments.

[Para]

German U Boats never ever torpedoed Civilian ships or Liners, what a wicked lot we are.

[Kitsune]

Para wrote
Kitsune,
My argument is that there are two sides to all these stories[...]

That is exactly what I wanted to point out. the second, surpressed or even altogether forgotten side of the coin. Unfortunately, if one, for once, says that German civilians were massacred and mistreated, too, some assholes who feel offended pop up. And then begin to play the "Who started all the wars?" and "They only got what they deserved!" tunes.


[...]and in these threads all we are seeing are the complaints from the Germans and the Japanese on how badly they where treated.
Is that a joke? Otherwise you should have your eyesight checked. Nearly all threads here are about the Evil Germans. Even this one was originally not about the suffering of German civilians. The number of threads on militaryphotos.net that exclusively point out the suffering of German civilians is zero. So you should have no reason to complain.



German U Boats never ever torpedoed Civilian ships or Liners, what a wicked lot we are.
The German submarine warfare and its conduct where absolutely analogous to what British and American submariners did in the Asian theater. There is no difference in "wickedness". This includes the policy not to rescue the personnel of the torpedoed freighters and liners. In contrast to Marinesko no German submarine commander ever got a monument for sinking a vessel full with civilian refugees, though.


AN_TPS_63A wrote:
Well they got the good deal beacouse probably western powers felt guilty about Versailles and harsh condition imposed on germany, and they never equalised nazi regime with german nation. If that only were so. But this is complete bull****. W.Germany was treated reasonably well since it was needed in the confrontation of the Soviet Union. Of the soldiers who protected Western Europe from the Soviet Union the largest part came from the Federal Rebublic of Germany. Under the command of an American general in case of war, of course. In exchange for this commitment West Germany got limited souvereignity. Without the confrontation with the Soviet Union there is no telling how Germany would have been treated. Most probably very bad. Probably something like Versailles forte (Xtra Xpanded Version).
As far as the felt guilt about the original treaty of Versailles in France, Britain or the USA is concerned: that is about zero.


AN_TPS_63A wrote
I've heard this morning in the radio that more than 80 % german population consider fell of nazi germany a liberation. Those 80% hardly have the Soviet Union in mind here.

[nahimov]

I wouldn't bash Soviet Union much here. East Germany was the best treated country in Eastern block. Maybe compared to western standards that does not say much but they lived much better than say Russians did. I don't know much about Stalins times but during Khrushevs and Brezhnevs times they were the best communist country in the world.

[M1A2U2]

Is that a joke? Otherwise you should have your eyesight checked. Nearly all threads here are about the Evil Germans. Even this one was originally not about the suffering of German civilians. The number of threads on militaryphotos.net that exclusively point out the suffering of German civilians is zero. So you should have no reason to complain.

The Germans were evil. As were the Japanese. There has never been such a clear depiction of right and wrong in human history as their was in WW2. Whether or not that was the allies reason for fighting is up for debate. But what is not up for debate is that the germans attempted to exterminate a race.
As for the civilians, the movie downfall makes this point very well at the end. They may not have known about the death camps but as hitlers secretary says at the end, she at first did not feel responsible till one day in teh 80s she went to a holocaust memorial and she suddenly felt sick. She realised that her countrymen and her could have found out if they tried. They, in fact, bought onto hitlers ideology. Without public support hitler wouldnt have been in power.

[ex1cdo]

Is that a joke? Otherwise you should have your eyesight checked. Nearly all threads here are about the Evil Germans. Even this one was originally not about the suffering of German civilians. The number of threads on militaryphotos.net that exclusively point out the suffering of German civilians is zero. So you should have no reason to complain.

The Germans were evil. As were the Japanese. There has never been such a clear depiction of right and wrong in human history as their was in WW2. Whether or not that was the allies reason for fighting is up for debate. But what is not up for debate is that the germans attempted to exterminate a race.
As for the civilians, the movie downfall makes this point very well at the end. They may not have known about the death camps but as hitlers secretary says at the end, she at first did not feel responsible till one day in teh 80s she went to a holocaust memorial and she suddenly felt sick. She realised that her countrymen and her could have found out if they tried. They, in fact, bought onto hitlers ideology. Without public support hitler wouldnt have been in power.

Well, the left flank (through Belgium, Holland, then Germay) was held by Canada for a lot of the European ground war.

Were you there. too?

Maybe my uncles will remember you...

[1Cie GevGn]

Well, the left flank (through Belgium, Holland, then Germay) was held by Canada for a lot of the European ground war.

Were you there. too?

Maybe my uncles will remember you...

rofl That was awesome.

Wish he would have as much sense as his little galpal lifeinasmallbox and leave, I'm sure that one is already back among us.

*waves his little "we wuv you" banner at lifeinasmallbox*

[Lifeinasmallbox]

yup took a full 2 day absense....thanks for the banner though...touches my heart

[1Cie GevGn]

touches my heart

Dang, I was aiming for your ass ;)

[Lifeinasmallbox]

touches my heart

Dang, I was aiming for your ass ;)

ill put a hundred bucks down that ur not joking

[1Cie GevGn]

You should be proud of your ass, it's nice and firm.

[Lifeinasmallbox]

down boy....easy now im starting to feel uncomfortable ;)

[1Cie GevGn]

I'll just use my boot to check softness ;)

[Lifeinasmallbox]

give me a while to warm up to the idea of somebody tenderizing my butt

[1Cie GevGn]

:lol:

[He219]

<img src=http://pro.corbis.com/images/HU036462.jpg?size=67&uid={03233056-10e4-4b66-bbfa-60f068aa3fe2}>

April 26, 1945: American Major General Emil F. Reinhardt (left in hardhat), commanding the 69th Infantry Division of the U. S. First Army, meets with Russian Major General Vladimir Rusakov (right in cap), commanding the Russian 58th Guards Infantry Division, at Torgau, Germany.
<img src=http://pro.corbis.com/images/42-15268008.jpg?size=67&uid={bc43b97c-b9b7-4266-97f4-81c0b6593c24}>

Members of a re-enactment group dressed as U.S. and Soviet Red Army soldiers celebrate on top of a Soviet Red Army APC as they performed the historical handshake from 60 years ago, in the eastern German city of Torgau at the river Elbe, April 23, 2005. World War Two veterans met on Saturday where 60 years ago at the Elbe River where American troops and the Soviet Red Army linked up for the first time on April 29, 1945
<img src=http://pro.corbis.com/images/42-15254248.jpg?size=67&uid={461611d0-b512-4676-b17d-c6064d90e552}>

Members of a re-enactment group dressed as U.S. and Soviet Red Army soldiers celebrate in front of a Soviet Red Army T-34 tank after they performed the historical handshake from 60 years ago, in the eastern German city of Torgau at the river Elbe, April 23, 2005. World War Two veterans met on Saturday where 60 years ago at the Elbe River where American troops and the Soviet Red Army linked up for the first time on April 29, 1945.
<img src=http://pro.corbis.com/images/NA003412.jpg?size=67&uid={6c940e2a-0bbe-4f32-88ef-486a21640f2f}>

April 1945, on a wrecked bridge across the Elbe River at Torgau, Germany, American soldiers (left) and Soviet soldiers meet in friendship and congratulate each other on the defeat of the Germans.
<img src=http://pro.corbis.com/images/UT0027722.jpg?size=67&uid={160859eb-b260-4d97-920a-319ea0091679}>

File: TORGAU,GERMANY,29APR00 - World War Two U.S. veterans Delbert Philpott (L), E.A. "Bud" Parsons (2nd L) and Russian veterans Alexander Silwaschko (R) and Grigoriy Prokopjow (2ndR) re-enact their historical handshake in the town of Torgau next to the river Elbe April 29. The four World War Two veterans met 55 years ago at the Elbe River as American troops and the Soviet Red Army linked up for the first time on April 29, 1945 in Torgau in East Germany. Veterans remember with a ceremony and a historical parade this anniversary
<img src=http://pro.corbis.com/images/BE035308.jpg?size=67&uid={9a7a7c69-ac2a-47a2-9edb-a4b24e2ca5fe}>

[AN_TPS_63A]

Is that a joke? Otherwise you should have your eyesight checked. Nearly all threads here are about the Evil Germans. Even this one was originally not about the suffering of German civilians. The number of threads on militaryphotos.net that exclusively point out the suffering of German civilians is zero. So you should have no reason to complain.

The Germans were evil. As were the Japanese. There has never been such a clear depiction of right and wrong in human history as their was in WW2. Whether or not that was the allies reason for fighting is up for debate. But what is not up for debate is that the germans attempted to exterminate a race.
As for the civilians, the movie downfall makes this point very well at the end. They may not have known about the death camps but as hitlers secretary says at the end, she at first did not feel responsible till one day in teh 80s she went to a holocaust memorial and she suddenly felt sick. She realised that her countrymen and her could have found out if they tried. They, in fact, bought onto hitlers ideology. Without public support hitler wouldnt have been in power.




Without public support hitler wouldnt have been in power.


Well he never asked germans on referendum like: "Hey guys do we want death camps, yes or no"?

[Holmer]

Personally I think the German civilian population has every right to complain about their treatment from the Soviets....and in turn the Soviet Civilians have every right to complain as well. The bottom line is....war against civilians is plain wrong and deplorable.


Without the confrontation with the Soviet Union there is no telling how Germany would have been treated. Most probably very bad. Probably something like Versailles forte (Xtra Xpanded Version).


Kitsune, you are wrong on this thought....otherwise how could Japan have prospered so well?

[Kitsune]

@Holmer:
Japan is on the same planet as Germany, you know. The one with the Soviet Union. Would not have made much sense to use Germany against the Soviets but to waste Japan. But without the threat of Stalin's Empire things might have been quite different. For both.
Ever heard of the "Morgenthau Plan"? No one can say of it would have been implemented and to what degree. But it's showed how some members of the American government were seeing things.
France and Britain? Well, look at the Versailles treaty. There was virtually no acceptance that it had been completely unfair, so it seems to be likely that those voices would have heard that demanded to implemend a much more severe peace treaty after WWI, or to abolish the German nation altogther (if that isn't one and the same). Which would have essentially demanded the use of constant oppression to keep it from forming anew. But I trust that our British and French friends were up to that task.

[Holmer]

Kitsune,
I understand what you are saying, but I still say both the FDR and Japan have done quite well post WWII and they are better off then a lot of western nations.

I don't know what the allies had planned for German, but she certainly made out ok...at least on the west side.

Germans have had to live with this stigma of the war for the last 60 years and she paid a dear price from the war. The world knows of the evil Germans while others who were more evil have walked away smelling of roses.

Does anyone know how many civilians were killed in the fight for Berlin?

[He219]

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German dictator Adolf Hitler, right, with his adjutant Julius Schaub, surveys damage to his chancellery in Berlin in April 1945. First published by the Berlin magazine Illustrated Telegraf, the picture is among the last photos showing Hitler alive near the end of World War II. (AP Photo)

April 29th, 1945:

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The bodies of Benito Mussolini, left, and his mistress, Clara Petacci, center, hang by their heels as they are put on display in Milan's Plaza Loretto in 1945. At right, partisans hoist the body of Lt. Gen. Achilee Starace, former chief of staff of the Italian fascist militia and former secretary of the Fascist party in Italy.
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Armed partisans look over Benito Mussolini's dead body after it is placed in a wooden coffin following his assassination near Dongo in the Como province, Italy, April 28, 1945. The Italian prime minister and dictator of the fascist regime was executed by a firing by an Italian partisan firing squad. (AP Photo)
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This is one of the last pictures taken of Adolf Hitler in his bunker in Berlin in 1945 as he shakes hands with Col. General Schoerner, appointed commander-in-chief of the non-existent Wehrmacht in Hitler's last will and testament. In doorway is Hitler's adjustant, Julius Schaub. (AP Photo)

Berlin, April 30, 1945:

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Moltkebrücke
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Hitler's bodyguard and telephone operator Rochus Misch is seen in Hitler's bunker "Wolfsschanze (Wolf's lair)" in Poland in this 1944 photo. (AP Photo, HO)
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Hitler's bodyguard and telephone operator Rochus Misch poses at his home in Berlin, March 10, 2005. Misch found Adolf Hitler _ whom he had served for five years _ slumped dead over a table, with a self-inflicted bullet wound to the head at 3:30pm on April 30th, 1945. (AP Photo/Herbert Knosowski)

Hitlers Ende: "Der Chef brennt!" (http://kriegsende.ard.de/pages_std_lib/0,3275,OID1287262,00.html)

Hitler begeht am 30. April 1945 Selbstmord. Sein Telefonist und Leibwächter Rochus Misch erinnert sich an die letzen Tage im so genannten Führerbunker. Er war seit 1940 im so genannten Führerbegleitkommando tätig und bewegte sich seither im Zentrum der NS-Macht. Er blieb bis zuletzt an Hitlers Seite. Der ehemalige SS-Angehörige schildert das Ende des NS-Regimes aus persönlicher Sicht:


Hitlers Telefonist: Rochus Misch. "Es war der Nachmittag des 30. April 1945. Über uns versank Berlin im Chaos, doch im Bunker war es noch stiller als sonst. Hitler und Eva Braun hatten sich verabschiedet. Alle anderen, die sich nicht längst aus dem Staub gemacht hatten, warteten stumm. Wir alle warteten auf den Schuss. Fünf Jahre hatte ich Hitler praktisch überallhin begleitet. Er war nicht mein Führer, sondern mein Chef und ich sein Telefonist. […]

Mein Arbeitsraum lag quasi genau gegenüber dem Schlafraum von Eva Braun. Vielleicht sechs Meter entfernt. Dazwischen war ein Flur, dann folgte ein Warteraum. Die drei zellenartigen Räume von Adolf Hitler lagen daneben. Das Vorzimmer war vom Gang aus erreichbar und dann kam Hitlers Wohn- und Arbeitsraum mit einem Zugang zum Schlafzimmer. Daneben nur eine Nassecke, eine Toilette, ein Waschbecken und Evas Zimmer. Mehr Platz war da nicht. […] Es war hier unten ungemütlich, beklemmend und feucht. Der Dieselgeruch eines Generators hing unangenehm in der Luft. […]

[…] wir konnten es am Gesichtsausdruck Hitlers ablesen, dass es zu Ende geht. Er sah verkrümmt aus und wirkte abwesend, das sorgenvolle Gesicht war fahl und zusammengefallen. Manchmal, wenn ich ihm Depeschen überbrachte, habe ich gesehen, wie Hitlers Hände bei Lesen zitterten und er Schwierigkeiten hatte, die Brille wieder abzusetzen. Ich kannte ihn genau und das war nicht mehr der Mann, den ich fünf Jahre täglich erlebt hatte. […] In den letzten beiden Tagen war die Hoffnungslosigkeit erdrückend. […] Ich habe zugehört, wie Adolf Hitler erst sein privates und dann sein politisches Testament seiner Sekretärin Traudl Junge diktiert hat. Wir saßen Rücken an Rücken. […]

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Aufgehängt: Mussolini und seine Geliebte. Am nächsten Tag legte SS-General Mohnke eine Karte von der Innenstadt Berlins vor und erläuterte in dürren Worten: 'Im Norden steht der Russe, im Osten, im Süden, im Westen, 300 bis 400 Meter vor der Reichskanzlei.' Als Hitler, übernächtigt, im Morgenmantel und in Hausschuhen wissen wollte, wie lang man sich noch halten könne, bekam er zur Antwort: 'Noch 20 bis 24 Stunden, mein Führer, nicht länger.' […] Gegen halb elf meldete eine Ordonnanz den Tod Mussolinis. Seine Leiche sei an einer Tankstelle kopfüber aufgehängt und von einer schreienden Menge geschlagen, bespuckt und mit Steinen beworfen worden. […] Hitler verlangte, dass er nach seinem Tod verbrannt werden solle, damit man nicht das Gleiche mit ihm mache wie mit Mussolini. […]

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SS Brigadefuehrer and Generalmajor Wilhelm Mohnke

Der Chef hat dann seinen letzten Funkspruch durch mich absetzen lassen, der aus fünf verschiedenen Fragen bestand: ‚1. Wo sind die Spitzen von Wenck? 2. Wann greifen sie weiter an? 3. Wo ist die neunte Armee? 4. Wohin bricht die neunte Armee durch? 5. Wo sind die Spitzen von Holste?' Doch diese Einheiten existierten nur noch in der Vorstellung Hitlers. Als Stunde um Stunde keine Antwort kam, erhob er sich plötzlich, um sich von seinen engeren Mitarbeitern zu verabschieden. Er gab jedem die Hand und machte auch eine kleine persönliche Bemerkung. Er entbinde jeden der Anwesenden von seinem Eid. Er hoffe, dass sie die englischen oder amerikanischen Linien erreichten. Und dann die letzten Worte: 'Ich bleibe an dem mir vorbestimmten Ort und werde hier ewige Wache halten.'


Danach: Am Ort des Selbstmordes. Am 30. April habe ich Adolf Hitler zum letzten Mal gesehen. Es war vielleicht elf Uhr, da ist er noch einmal aus seinen Räumen gekommen und ging an mir vorbei. Ich stand auf und wir haben uns angeguckt. Er ging dann weiter bis ans Ende des Ganges und wieder zurück, dort blieb er irgendwie unschlüssig stehen. Ich schaute hinterher, da drehte er sich noch mal um und verschwand. Anschließend hat er seinem Leibdiener oder seinem Adjutanten gesagt, dass er nicht mehr gestört werden möchte. Dann hat er sich bei Bormann, Goebbels und den anderen, die da waren, verabschiedet. Das konnte ich aus drei, vier Metern Abstand sehen. Danach war es ganz ruhig.

Plötzlich hörten wir, wie in den noch nicht zerstörten Räumen der Reichskanzlei getrunken und gefeiert wurde. Musik und Lärm dröhnten bis zu uns nach unten. Die strenge Disziplin hatte sich vollkommen aufgelöst. Ich wurde beauftragt, in der über dem Bunker liegenden Kantine anzurufen, um das Gelage dort zu beenden. Dann wurde eine Ordonnanz nach oben geschickt, die mitteilen sollte, der Führer sei im Begriff zu sterben. Aber die da oben waren so betrunken, dass sie gar nicht darauf reagierten.

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Verbrannt: Hitlers Leichnam. Unten im Bunker sahen wir uns an und jeder horchte. Wir warteten auf den Schuss. Ich habe allerdings nichts gehört. Dann rief jemand: 'Linge, Linge, ich glaube es ist soweit.' Heinz Linge, der Leibdiener von Hitler, stieß mich zur Seite und trat vor Hitlers Tür. […] Wer als Erster die Tür aufgemacht hat und Hitlers Leichnam fand, weiß ich nicht mehr. Ich habe Hitler ganz schlaff auf dem Sofa sitzen sehen. Eva Braun lag neben ihm, mit angezogenen Knien, und er hing so vorne über. […] Später haben sie dann die Leiche an mir und anderen vorbei getragen. Sie trugen ihn nach oben ins Konferenzzimmer. Wir bildeten so eine Art Spalier. Das Letzte, was ich von ihm sah, waren seine Schuhe. […]

Ein Mitarbeiter meinte noch zu mir: 'So, jetzt wird der Chef verbrannt, geh mal schnell rauf.' - 'Nee', sagte ich. 'Ich geh da nicht rauf, geh du rauf.' Aber der wollte auch nicht. Als die Leiche Hitlers im Bereich der Neuen Reichskanzlei mit Benzin entfacht war, ging bei uns unten die Parole um: 'Der Chef brennt!' Keiner wusste mehr, was er tun sollte. Die Stimmung bei uns, den Letzten im Bunker, war eine merkwürdige Mischung aus Apathie, Angst und Orientierungslosigkeit."

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400 meters from the Reichstag
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Berlin in Ruins, 30th April, 1945
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[Navor]

Any Pics of German Hardware used in Berlin

[He219]

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In the commemoration hall of the Soviet military cemetery of Baruth, south of Berlin, Red Army veteran Alexandr Demjanow commemorates the 20,000 Soviet dead of the battle of Halbe in the last weeks of WWII at the end of April 1945 on Saturday April 30, 2005. (AP Photo/Sven Kaestner)
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Red Army veteran Wladzimir Parkhimchyk from the Belorussian capital of Minsk follow commemoration events to remember the Soviet dead of the battle Halbe during the last weeks of WWII in April 1945 in the Soviet military cemetery in Baruth, south of Berlin, Saturday April 30, 2005. (AP Photo/Sven Kaestner)
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[quote]In the biggest German military cemetery in Halbe, south of Berlin, Red Army veteran Alexandr Fedotow, right, embraces German former Wehrmacht soldier Heinz Keim, left, during a commemorate for the 60,000 who died in the battle Halbe in the last weeks of WWII at the end of April 1945 on Saturday April 30, 2005. 60 years later former Russian, Ukrainian, Belorussian and German soldiers commemorated on e of the last huge battles of WWII . (AP Photo/Sven Kaestner)
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Unter dem Motto "Versoehnung ueber den Graebern gedenken die russischen Kriegsveteranen Leonid Petrowitsch Swerkunow, links, und Wladimir Wladimirowitsch, rechts, auf dem groessten deutschen Soldatenfriedhof im brandenburgischen Halbe der etwa 60.000 Toten der Kesselschlacht von Halbe Ende April 1945 am Samstag, 30. April 2005. Es war die letzte Kesselschlacht des Zweiten Weltkrieges auf dem Weg der Roten Armee nach Berlin. (AP Photo/Sven Kaestner) --- On the biggest German military cemetery in Halbe, south of Berlin, Red Army veterans Leonid Petrowitsch Swerkunow, left, from the Russian city of Twer and Wladimir Wladimirowitsch Mjasnikow, right, from Moscow commemorate the 60,000 deads of the Halbe battle in the last weeks of WWII at the end of April 1945 on Saturday April 30, 2005. 60 years later former Russian, Ukrainian, Belorussian and German soldiers commemorate the last huge battle of WWII at the way of Red Army to the German capital of Berlin. (AP Photo/Sven Kaestner)
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In the biggest German military cemetery in Halbe south of Berlin, Red Army veteran Gennadi Artemowitsch Kushenko from the Ukranian capital of Kiev salutes behind wreaths to commemorate the 60,000 deaths of the Battle of Halbe in the last weeks of WWII at the end of April 1945 on Saturday April 30, 2005. (AP Photo/Sven Kaestner)