Galileo dead!?

[aeternum]

http://slashdot.org/articles/03/12/01/1226207.shtml?tid=103&tid=126&tid=99

anyone has more infos on that on?


Galileo under US-Control

The argument, the european satellite navigation system Gallileo will make the europeans independent from the USA, seems to tumble. Tagesschau [one of the most serious Newsmagazines in Germany] reports, US military forces may disturb or completely jam the Galileo signal without furhter notice, similar to what they are doing already with the GPS-Signals in critical times.

But that is not enough for the americans. They demand to reduce the quality ofthe unencrypted Galileo signal, which the System sends in normal operation. If the USA will succeed with its demands, one of the main arguments for the european Navigationsystem - it's much higher precision compared to GPS - would fall. The final decision talks are set for january in Washington D.C.

About four billion Euro will the Galilep project cost and it will start in the year 2008. About 30 satellites are required for the system. China and India also want to take part in financing the project with togehter 500 million euro.

[Shadow]

Sounds like someone is jealouse(spelling?).:D

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

What gives I thought this was going to be perfect answer to paid for DGPS in Europe raw GPS is poor for some work at sea.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Seems that the EU is trying a bit of slight of hand in the planning of the Galileo system.

Simply put, both systems employ parts of the radio specturm to transmit the signals to earth. GPS is, at it's heart, a military system. The US gov't has allowed the less accurate "public" part of GPS to be used, free of charge by the public.

The much more accurate military signal (called the "M-Code) is encrypted on a separate frequency. It's used for military targeting etc..

The Galileo system would be very simlar, employing a PRS (publicly regulated service) - also encrypted for law enforcement, security agencies etc.

At issue is the fact that as originally designed, Galileo would overlap it's PRS on top of the GPS M-Code frequencies, and with a similar modulation scheme.

What this would mean is that if you jammed one, you'd automatically jam the other.

There are several ways around this that are under consideration - moving the PRS to another band, using another wave modulation scheme, etc.

Since NATO depends upon GPS for a number of targeting systems, losing GPS would be, in a word, bad. In the end, they'd probably just throw a bunch of money at it & redeploy M-Code in a different way.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out. Pretty clever of the EU to do things this way - obvioulsy they have more than just simple navigation on their minds. As with most international agreements of this type - the resolution of the problem will no doubt include a huge pile of US taxpayer's money handed to the EU to ensure the US get's what it wants...

[Seoulstriker]

Looks like the EU wants to allow the enemies of the US to use GPS in times of war against the US.

What do the French care? They already sold hundreds of sophisticated NVGs to Iraq. :roll:

[Loco]

the resolution of the problem will no doubt include a huge pile of US taxpayer's money handed to the EU to ensure the US get's what it wants...
I´m sure european citizens are very grateful with the generous americans taxpayers, but it seems as if the 4.000.000.000 € just spent by UEuropeans citizens (in six months since now many of us will pay our quota) today are intended to ease americans payers of the heavy load they carry over their shoulders, you know, and then americans will have what they really want, their own money in their pocket and being free of this disturbing europens neighbours who always are asking for the pincers and screw-drivers, now we´ll buy our own tools. Galileo is a goood european project, not that stupids discussions about ghost europeans armies and some europeans politics giving lessons nobody want to listen.
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:LZSXp6Kk07QC:www.liberliber.it/biblioteca/g/galilei/sidereus_nuncius/html/galileo.gif

Epur si muove, p-)
Edited: Just read the post of Seoulstriker. Really, I don´t think Galileo is a threat to USA security, that´s sure. But it´s evident that as in europe, in general, are some distrust with an unlimited USA power, which btw I think is really bad even for americans citizens interests, in USA there is a clear distrust with a true independent UE. Since the cultural source and a good part of the people´s origins of both USA and UE are the same, I think it should be forgotten this fears in both parts. Anyway, you can´t stop a whole society to develope its own technology if they can do it, it means richness and independence for that society and that it´s all, it´s not a question of white and black or good or evil.

[Herrmannek]

This is first time I support opinion of our leftist europen friends :)

[Kitsune]

Its fascinating...if ANYONE would dare to threaten an US project the way the US threatens GALILEO all hell would break loose. But "The US-Empire" does such things with impunity.

I just hope Europe stands firm in this, damit.

[Guttorm]

Looks like the EU wants to allow the enemies of the US to use GPS in times of war against the US.

What do the French care? They already sold hundreds of sophisticated NVGs to Iraq. :roll:

What ARE you talking about?

[Russian Texan]

The simple truth is that Europe use to be US puppet due to the WW2 aftermath. Now it is strong enough to "spread its wings" and challenge its former master economically, so don't expect US just stand aside and watch its control over Europe dissolve :)

I remember reading somewhere that the reason US got involved with Milosevic was to destabilize Euro and give boost to US Dollar. Sounds credible to me.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

I think that some are missing the point. The US is not trying to STOP the Galileo project - they are trying to ensure that it is not impemented in a way that will impact NATO's ability to fight a war.

There is no NEED for Galileo to use the same frequency band as GPS, and no NEED for them to use the same modulation scheme.

It is being done - in my opinion - to extort money from the US in the name of free enterprise.

Even if Galileo goes ahead & overlaps GPS - the US will simply fix the problem by changing it's encoding scheme.

It's sort of like that auto repair shop's TV commercial - pay me now, or pay me later. Either way the US will have to shell out the cash.

[Uncle Chô]

anyone has more infos on that on?


Galileo under US-Control
Die Tagesschau is indeed a serious neswmagazine but not scientific nor a space related. Because of my job I subscribe to Aviation Week & Space Technology and its French equivalent (both professional magazines) and I have never read anything about (yet ?).

Be cautious.

[Loco]

It is being done - in my opinion - to extort money from the US in the name of free enterprise.

I understand your arguments, very convincing, but this is an assertion not an argument, an anti-european assertion if you permit to me. And, talking about free enterprise or free market, neither canadians, chines, japaneses, indians, brasilians nor europeans extorted money from the USA when Bush put a big tariff over steel imports breaking all previous pacts. Fortunately, things are coming back to the right path.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Looks like the EU wants to allow the enemies of the US to use GPS in times of war against the US.

What do the French care? They already sold hundreds of sophisticated NVGs to Iraq. :roll:

What ARE you talking about?

Ok your on crack...thats right everyone IS out to get you. Put your tinfoil hat back on and run to the basement quick before they read your thoughts. :lol:

[California Joe]

I say we just tell the French it's a Greenpeace Satellite and they'll blow it up for us. ;)

[2Sheds_Jackson]

It is being done - in my opinion - to extort money from the US in the name of free enterprise.

I understand your arguments, very convincing, but this is an assertion not an argument, an anti-european assertion if you permit to me. And, talking about free enterprise or free market, neither canadians, chines, japaneses, indians, brasilians nor europeans extorted money from the USA when Bush put a big tariff over steel imports breaking all previous pacts. Fortunately, things are coming back to the right path.

As I look at it - I've made a series of coherent assertions, which, taken together, suport my arguement: that the only reason to impement Galileo as planned is to gain concessions (money or otherwise) from the US. Quid pro quo.

I don't know enough about the steel tarrif issue it argue it intelligently. I'm guessing that the tariffs were levied to make up for other conditons that the WTO does not address (due to it's makeup). I will only say that many WTO signatories do not share the same free market principles that the US & others do & they provide massive state subsidies to certain industries. Thus these products hit the market & WTO regulation at artificial prices.

For example, Glocktenshtein gives economic aid to it's por neighbor Pullovia. Pullovia takes the money, and subsidizes the production of novelty fake eyeballs. They then sell the fake eyeballs back to Glockenshtein at prices that naitive Glocktenshteinian eyeball makers can't touch (since they aren't subsidized). So they guy making fake eyeballs in Glocktenshtein pays his taxes, which in turn put him out of a job. Ah, freedom.

[Loco]

As I look at it - I've made a series of coherent assertions, which, taken together, suport my arguement: that the only reason to impement Galileo as planned is to gain concessions (money or otherwise) from the US. Quid pro quo.

Excuse me, perhaps the blame is my poor english. I think the right word would be "self-willed statement" or so. Arguments are linked one-by-one, and at the end you have the conclusion. After reading you I understand that Galileo can disturb in some way GPS in the way is just now, well, I´m sure there must be enough tech resources to resolve that problem. But from your same arguments I don´t see in anyway the conclusion that europe wants extorting americans.
And about free market, yes, ah the freedom! fortunately it seems american factories will can buy foreing steel under better conditions and so making cheaper goods.


I say we just tell the French it's a Greenpeace Satellite and they'll blow it up for us.
Cross my fingers, let´s hope Mitterand don´t revive.
http://www.fempemg.hpg.ig.com.br/imagens/arbitro16.gif

[duck]

The whole Galileo project is a reflection of gaullism from the 60's. France cannot finance this megalomaniac project alone so they force it upon the germans on the pretext of european co-operation. It would be much cheaper to wine, dine and buy scholarships for assorted State Department and Pentagon staff, just like the Israelis do. Actually, ´why not join forces with the Israeli spying and lobbying network in D.C to get unlimited access to the GPS system?

[cut]

because dependency on the US is irritating and frustrating

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Loco - your English may not be perfect, but your spelling is better than mine! :D

My point is that the Galileo problem is a needless one. But as you said - it can be fixed.

To fix it you have to throw money at it:
-change US GPS
or
-change the Galileo design

Changing the GPS M-Code package would involve the replacement of every military GPS receiver, and maybe even the GPS satellites themselves. I don't think they're software upgradeable. The cost would be massive, but yeah it could be done.

Or they could change the Galileo design, since it's not built yet. But I'm sure the EU won't just say "oh sure no problemo - we'll change it".

It will cost the US either way. Probably a lot less to get Galileo changed.

The operational modes of GPS were known beforehand.
The overlap "problem" is not a coincidence that Galileo engineers didn't think about until it was too late. It's basic RF engineering.
Thus it was an intentional design parameter, with no benefit other than a political one.

Hey, I'm from the cold-war era & regard the EU as close allies. It goes to show that times have indeed changed, and even allies are playing hardball with us. As long as they don't mind if we occasionally smack the ball back at 'em!

[cut]

Hey, I'm from the cold-war era & regard the EU as close allies. It goes to show that times have indeed changed, and even allies are playing hardball with us. As long as they don't mind if we occasionally smack the ball back at 'em!


That's the thing despite being close allies you've played hardball with us, embargos and so on.. so it's hardly supprising that we get our own back.

Thanks for explaining all the details of Galileo, but I still don't understand why anyone would making it on the same bandwith etc.. There is no sense in causing political arguments and wasting money, if this is totally unavoidable, there is definately some factor that we haven't heard about yet.

[duck]

Yep, and that factor consists of French ENArques and staff officers following President Chiracs' gaullist policies. There is a real possibility of France reclaiming what Napoleon lost and having UK and German forces under their command. A kind of new Foreign Legion, if you will.

[California Joe]

Is it hard to see with your head all the way up your arse like that?

[Gordon]

No Joe, i reckon he can see just fine, his head is so far up his arse it probably comes right through and sticks out his neck again.

[California Joe]

Notice I used the correct ****unciation of arse? ;)