Chechen War

[16 OBr SpN]

OK guys I created this thread concerned with Chechen conflict. Feel free to post your questions here.
I hope I'll be able to answer SOME of your questions. I can't promise I'll answer all of them, because I have certain regulations to follow.

I saw some questions about uniform and gear:

1) Uniform and gear. It varies depending on the type of troops we are talking about. During the 1st Chechen war, unifrom issue was a disaster among the regular troops. Later on, a major tendor was started by the Defence Ministry for the new type of camouflage. Believe it or not, they are implementing the new uniform which is much more comfortable, and warmer and has a better quality. As for the other types of units such as spetsnaz GRU, we were much better equipped all around. But we had to spend our personal money for that. When you're out there on the field you will truly see it was worth it. If guys from a platoon go for a short break, they usually have a big list of "shopping to do" :)
All of our equipment was Russian made. Believe it or not, there are very good manufacturers in Russia (especially "Splav" and "SpetsOsnashenie") who make excellent stuff, but don't get a chance to sell the gear in large enough quantities to the Defence Ministry.
go to: www.splav.ru and you'll have a brief idea of what we liked to use.

2) Helmets. There are very good helmets, but again not enough. I personally didn't wear any. My wife went to the local tailor and he made me a cap and a ski mask with the zippers on the ends. She gave him different types of my camouflage and he made the camouflaged covers for them, so they could be zipped on and of on tope of the cap and a ski mask. Very comfortable and practical.

The only foreign equipment that I used was a Casio G-Shock watch. Very nice :) I'm still wearing it! Looks funny when combined with a business suit! :lol:

3) As for contract fighters. They cannot be considered mercenaries, because they are getting paid for doing their job protecting Motherland. It's no different from any professional army in the world. Besides, they don't get paid that much. Most of them were veterans of the 1st Chechen War, and signing a contract was the only option to go in, and make a payback to the mujahedin.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[The Walrus]

I don't get Chechnia, why do the Russians still stay in Chechnia?
Is it because of international reputation or is it for fear that other ethnic groups will follow Chechnias example and demand autonomy?
It is quite clear that they're not wanted there, it would be better for both sides if Russia simply left.

[Roger Rabbit]

16 OBr SpN looks like you need to give some more history on the conflict and more info on who does and who doesn't support it.

My limited knowledge is that the majority of Russians consider Chechens as terrorists due to their past and present history. There are also many Chechens who do not wich the Muslim extremists to take power and so fight on the side of the Russians. Last thing i heard was that the Chechen insurgents were pretty much defeated and were down to limited ambushes and roadside bombings. Any light you could shed on anything would be helpfull. What was your role in the war anyway and are you still military?

[Russian Texan]

And if you have any pictures that can be considered "declassified" would you please share, Afgan ones would be interesting too. Thank you.

[Javehn]

I have some questions . First about logistic support , how was with that ?
I heard it was total dissaster , people had to find they own food , sometimes risking they life .
I heard some strange story , or at list strange to me , on attacking bank in grozny during new years eve 1994 battles. I read there that the building was couple of stores high , soldiers get there attacked them and shifted them to higher stores .. and becose it was night , they stoped with fights and prepared to go to rest and sleep . It sounds very strange to me . They living it this way , when in the same building there are chechens ? How the hell is that possible ?
Coordination between units : I heard non existed . The soldiers didn't informed forces that they are entering they controled territory , as a result , a lot of firefights between russian soldiers , there were non "buffer " zones between units , no attachment between different unit perimeters existed.
Your comments ,thoughts , facts ...

[Dalleer]

Well, since we are talking about Chechnya here I have a question concerning the Chechen guerilla (?) equipment, so here goes:

Besides getting equipment from the dead Russians, stealing or looting stuff and so forth, who provides the Cheches with the modern (and I've heard sometimes western) equipment?

Terrorist organisations perhaps? or do they just buy it from other countries?

[16 OBr SpN]

Chechen conflict is the war where everything got mixed up: politics, money, personal revenge. On the one hand it was you, Americans along with the Brits. Your government followed certain agenda and widely supported Chechens by providing them with equipment, and money. Later on you started using your ass-kissers like Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Turkey to further help Chechens. There were many Brits out there. Not all journalists, not all of Arabic origin, and not all mercenaries. Here is food for your thought. Chechens were very generously supplied with brand new NATO camo, Claymore mines, radio jamming equipment, NV goggles, satellite phones, etc. All today’s “war on terror” bull**** should start against some elements of your governments.

On the other hand we had a President who was an incompetent alcoholic, who was our disgrace!
We had some generals who got their ranks from out of nothing, and thought they were geniuses of military thought.
Add soldiers who were 18 years old with no military experience whatsoever, and only knew how to march. Some of them didn’t even know how to shoot because they just got in! But most of the blame should go to Yeltsin. I hope the bastard will burn in hell!

Orders to prepare were given at the beginning of December; some units had only days of notice before they were sent into Groznyy!
No prior recon was made before entering the city. Despite dozens of warnings by the military intelligence, our stupid generals wanted to make a present to Yeltsin for the New Year, and therefore ignored those warnings. Those sons of bitches were sitting their asses in warm rooms of Kremlin, while Groznyy became hell on earth.
The dynamic protection plates were empty – didn’t have any charges inside! That’s why we lost so many tanks. Guys who were entering the city were told to go to their respective positions, and were told there was no significant presence! “Only PM’s and shotguns” they were told!! That’s why they were riding on the street on the travel formation and becoming easy targets.
Columns were following with no prior recon or support.
Bottom-line is, this kind of mixture begged for a disaster.
But despite the heavy losses taken during the night of the New Year, we were able to quickly throw the Chechens away from the city… That’s when politicians stuck their noses again. Everyone was trying to put blanket on their side. While peace talks were going, our guys were told not to open fire even when they were attacked!!

It seemed as if Afghan experience was all gone, and lessons learned were totally ignored. Elite units were used as regular storm troops. Only couple of times we were sent to our “haven” – mountains. Note: I’m talking about the first months of the Chechen war; afterwards, most of our action was going on in the mountains.

I served in the army recon forces, otherwise known as “razvedka”. Our main goals were ambushes, recon, and raids on the Chechen guerillas. Most of my time, I spent in the mountains and some other problematic regions, just like back in Afghanistan.

The only positive thing about Chechen war was it showed us the weak points of our armed forces. Although those lessons came at a dear price.

To be continued…

[koster]

16 OBr, have you ever used assault vest called Kardon from SSO ? or any of the "Grad" series from ANA ? do you know anything about them? I mean, are they good ? Also, what do you think of Noch 91MK (it is made from HB, right?)
Also, do you have any info on the 131'st brigade (maikopskaya mahorka), was there a whole brigade, or just a part of it ?

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Ok for any russian gear go to this site: http://www.russiancombatgear.com/

It has everything you need for Russian gear. Theres even a section that will roughly edge out what units use what camoflauge/vests ect.

[koster]

Thats a good site indeed, but I want to hear an oppinion of someone who used it ;)

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Well theres a slight difference between the grad 1 vest and grad 2. One obviously comes in OD and one comes in camoflauge. The OD ones slighty heavyer and is made of a thicker material.

As far as the Noch 91mk I dont know about it.
Do you mean this?
http://www.russiancombatgear.com/product_details/Noch_91M_BDU.php

[koster]

Well, there's Noch 91M, MK, and MKL, I beleive, I've been told that MK is the best one of them. The 91M is made of Synthetic, so, it is not a good choice (synthetic catches on fire very easy). The 91MK and MKL (or was it just MK?) are made of HB (Cotton in english, I beleive), so, it should be much better.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Email Stanislav of russian combat gear he should be able to give you more insight into the type of gear. I only thought theres was the 91m but i guess i was wrong. Koster if ya dont mind me asking what are you going to use it for? If its for airsoft dont worry about it catching on fire.

[koster]

no, not for airsoft.
I guess I will email this guy sometime this week.

2) Helmets. There are very good helmets, but again not enough. I personally didn't wear any. My wife went to the local tailor and he made me a cap and a ski mask with the zippers on the ends. She gave him different types of my camouflage and he made the camouflaged covers for them, so they could be zipped on and of on tope of the cap and a ski mask. Very comfortable and practical.
Vam "Sferki" vydavali ? heh, ponyatno pochemu vy bez shlema hodili.

[GazB]

"Vam "Sferki" vydavali ? heh, ponyatno pochemu vy bez shlema hodili."

Hey come on guys... you are here to share your knowledge and experience... not hide it all in your language.

Please no Russian! Keep it in English! ( I am trying to learn Russian but am still learning the letters...)

BTW thanks for the links.

"The dynamic protection plates were empty – didn’t have any charges inside! "

Yes, I'd heard that in the rush to get the armour into position that they didn't have time to put the activating charges in their ERA (explosive reactive armour). That sucks.

"It is quite clear that they're not wanted there, it would be better for both sides if Russia simply left."

They did leave after round one, but the chechens attacked Russia several times. If you look at a map Chechnia and Dagestan are side by side. If both were controlled by one country then caspian sea oil could be piped across to the Black Sea bypassing the existing piplines through Russia. You knew it was about oil didn't you? Why else would the west be interested?

"Besides getting equipment from the dead Russians, stealing or looting stuff and so forth, who provides the Cheches with the modern (and I've heard sometimes western) equipment?"

It pays to remember that Chechnia was part of Russia and therefore almost all of the men were in the army at some time. Fairly large stocks of weapons were kept in Chechnia at military bases for potential conflict with Turkey during the cold war. Most of that material was siezed by the Chechens and not handed back after the first ceasefire.

I have a few questions to. As a scout did you use the supressed underbarrel grenade launcher (30mm calibre). If so what was it s performance like? Also what is your opinion regarding the 5.45mm ammo vs the AKs 7.62 or the SVDs 7.62 x 54mm rounds.

Thanks in advance.

[16 OBr SpN]

Koster:

Grad-2 is good. Very reliable clips (застежки). Grad has a minus of having a zipper, because they tend to break under constant pressure especially during heavy use. But I personally liked M23 more. But, it all depends on individual preference.
Noch iz made not only from HB, but I think they also make it from synthetics too. I’m not absolutely sure though. Depending on the area we used different camo. Mostly Gorkas by SSO; and sometimes M21’s. In Afghanistan we wore KLS (some people call it Mabuta), and it was really good, but I think they stopped making them. I heard that nowadays guys have been issued with “Kuklas”.

“Sferas” were given to SOBR and OMON.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[16 OBr SpN]

I have a few questions to. As a scout did you use the supressed underbarrel grenade launcher (30mm calibre). If so what was it s performance like? Also what is your opinion regarding the 5.45mm ammo vs the AKs 7.62 or the SVDs 7.62 x 54mm rounds.

Thanks in advance.

We didn’t use BS-1. It’s a bit more complex, and requires more time. GP-25 on AK-74/AKM was the of choice.
The 5,45 is faster, and gun is easier to control. But 7,62 has a greater punch. Therefore it all comes down to preferences. Besides, type of the bullet plays a big role too. Although I personally think we should have stuck on to 7,62, because potential of it is not fully discovered. In our platoon, almost half of us were carrying good old AKM’s.

There was one guy who installed a ствол (barrel??) from SVD on AKM! :) I don’t know how he did it though, but said he was very happy with it.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[koster]

ok, I see, I think I'm going to get either a Grad-2 or Vityaz' from ANA.
Also, do you happen to know if there is a SSO store in Moscow? their site seems do be down for like 2 years, or so.

There was one guy who installed a ствол (barrel??) from SVD on AKM! I don’t know how he did it though, but said he was very happy with it.
a vy PM v avtomat (pp) slucahino ne peredelyvali ?

P.S. yeah, the good old AKM is still the best.

[Russian Texan]

Did you use bulletproof vests and if you did what kind? Was it the same 16kg ones as back in Afganistan? How effective they were? Thank you in advance for your answers.

[16 OBr SpN]

Did you use bulletproof vests and if you did what kind? Was it the same 16kg ones as back in Afganistan? How effective they were? Thank you in advance for your answers.

In the mountains - no. You don't want to load yourself too much. Because on the mission you need as much ammo as you can carry + water + food.

In the city - yes. We used Modul’-3M. It was truly magnificent. It is effective against 5,45 and weight was about 7 kg.
But our main concern was not only bullets, but the shrapnel too.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[16 OBr SpN]

Ok for any russian gear go to this site: http://www.russiancombatgear.com/


I especially liked the dog-tag section! rofl
Guys who make them surely have a great imagination! If you saw my dog-tag, you guys would be truly disappointed! No color, no logo... just an abbreviation and number ;)

[16 OBr SpN]

Also, do you have any info on the 131'st brigade (maikopskaya mahorka), was there a whole brigade, or just a part of it ?

No. It wasn't the whole brigade, only a batallion. Berezovsky's media were talking crap like "Maykop brigade" that's how many people have this misconception.

[16 OBr SpN]

I have some questions . First about logistic support , how was with that ?
I heard it was total dissaster , people had to find they own food , sometimes risking they life .
I heard some strange story , or at list strange to me , on attacking bank in grozny during new years eve 1994 battles. I read there that the building was couple of stores high , soldiers get there attacked them and shifted them to higher stores .. and becose it was night , they stoped with fights and prepared to go to rest and sleep . It sounds very strange to me . They living it this way , when in the same building there are chechens ? How the hell is that possible ?
Coordination between units : I heard non existed . The soldiers didn't informed forces that they are entering they controled territory , as a result , a lot of firefights between russian soldiers , there were non "buffer " zones between units , no attachment between different unit perimeters existed.
Your comments ,thoughts , facts ...

Logistic support was a DISASTER!
Commanders were using open lines. Communications were messed up because chechens with the generous help of americans and brits were tapping our lines. When called on FAPSI to jam chechens, we got a response that they would arrive soon, but nothing happened.
Food was in shortage. We had to slay cows and lambs of the locals.

As for sleeping in the same building with the chechens - I highly doubt it. If the area was not secure we blew those buildings, or called artillery.

Marines were the ones who inflicted the most damage to chechens. Those guys were indeed crazy and ruthless sons of bitches! :)
Chechens were very scared of facing marines, because they heard of their fanatical fighting style. In the radio we could hear chechens say "Внимание - морпехи!" ("Danger - marines!"). There were numerous cases when chechens were jumping off top floors of buildings when they saw marines storming them.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[koster]

yeah, the marines (morpeh) were good, especially in the 2nd chechen, I hear that they have had less casualties than any other forces (conventional) in both wars. Only about 20 or so percent of their casualties were from enemy fire. That's pretty good.

[Roger Rabbit]

It depends on what the number of the remaining 80% is and how those casualties were caused.

[Javehn]

Ok , i first gonna tell my father he was ruthelless fanatic ... Major in marines , or airforce troops , something like that , Russian system is kinda complicated ..
Second , can you explain me what is SVD ? It's Dragonov , no ?
What is the difference beetween 5.45 kalach and 7.62 ?
Third , damn !!! I would kill someone to get this Vityaz !! looks like some wet ****ing dream. However , i been a tanker , and we don't used those tactical vests so often , but still .. Russkies do have some serios **** !!!
You really liked this M23 ? looked like it's gonna kill your sholders...
What i don't bellieve is , that you bought it ! In Israel , many soldiers didn't use army vest , so they just did one up by themselfes , from matterial called Cordova (very strong matterial , people did it by themselfes on oldy "Zinger" , or inside special workshops for it that some special units had )and from different types of camo net's . Camo suits , and camo's for helmets and weapons was also made by the soldiers themselfes from camo net's , depending who had the power to do it ...
People had a compettition between them who had the best looking and most of those thingies ...
But i always did like Russian uniforms , it always looked so beautifull to me.
About changing weapons to something else , we had mastered it to another level . Thise days it's forbidden becose of the strict rules about those things , but something like 8 or 9 years ago , damnit ! Tankers had those days weapon called "Mini Galil" , and it was to long for they taste , so they did everything from chopping it's barrel , chopping weapon back side (damnit , how it's called .... ) , sticking to weapond some strange thingies from flashlight to those 2 leg's that holding the weapon (damnit , you must excuse me for my poor english knowladge , and writting ) .
But i think that off topic allready

[Kingpin]

I'm very interested in current situation. What's now happening in Chechnya behind official fog?

[koster]

SVD is Dragunov, "Dragunovka", "Veslo".
the difference between 5,45 Kalash and 7,62 Kalash, is the caliber. The AK-74 is chambered in 5,45x39mm (it fires 5,45x39mm rounds), and the AKM is chabbered in 7,62x39mm (fires 7,62x39mm rounds).
Also, the AKM has got a little bit less range (7,62 round has slower speed then the 5,45 one), but it hits much harder.

sorry, couldn't help, but to answer.

[16 OBr SpN]

ok, I see, I think I'm going to get either a Grad-2 or Vityaz' from ANA.
Also, do you happen to know if there is a SSO store in Moscow? their site seems do be down for like 2 years, or so.
a vy PM v avtomat (pp) slucahino ne peredelyvali ?

P.S. yeah, the good old AKM is still the best.

I think SSO has their store in their office. I have to call my guys and ask. I'll send you a PM when I find out.

As for the "automatic Makarov" - why would we want to do that?

One word says it all - APS! ;)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[koster]

well, yeah, I know about APS (who doesn't? hehe)
but I've heard rumors/stories about that, I guess those guys didn't have an APS's available.

btw, thanks for the address.

[oldsoak]

Now heres a question for all and sundry: - ;) ,

- it was once put to me by a Russian that the west's interests would have been better served helping the Russians in Chechnya and Afghanistan. His argument was that like it or not, the Russians are culturally western, they are a stable society and we can do deals with them. It would, he pointed out, be better to deal with the devil you know than the devil you dont. At least the Russians represented stability that the west could conduct diplomacy with. He also pointed out that had the Russians effectively controlled Afghanistan, the war there might not have happened, leaving us more free to deal with Iraq. Well, thats a theory I guess. So the question is, would helping the Russians out have benefited the west bearing in mind that their enemies are not necessarily people we in the west might want too close ?

[earl]

Well 16 OBr SpN, looks like you've opened a can of worms.

I'd like to know your view of the current situation in Georgia. I read an article at www.janes.com (it's still there, maybe #10 on the list) about how Russia has backed the Ossetian and Abkhaz separatists in regions of Georgia.


The USA has been training Georgian special forces since mid-2002. The defection of these special forces, led by their commander Georgi Shengilia, to the opposition played a decisive role in forcing Shevardnadze to resign, JID sources have revealed.

However, fresh elections and the removal of Shevardnadze are unlikely to resolve Georgia's deep seated problems. These include widespread corruption and tax evasion and the loss of control since 1992 over two areas: Abkhazia and South Ossetia. An election victory by the more radical EM-DP led by populist Saakashvili could lead to fresh attempts at a military solution to the Abkhaz and South Ossetian questions. This, in turn, would open the door to Russia, which has long backed the Abkhaz and Ossetian separatists.

While I can understand that Russia would want to keep Georgia unstable since the US is trying to have their way there, but who are these separatists? I find it very hard to imagine that the Russians would back muslim separatists, right next door to Chechnya.

Any insight would be appreciated, I've been trying to sort out what's happening there right now.

[Kingpin]

While I can understand that Russia would want to keep Georgia unstable since the US is trying to have their way there, but who are these separatists? I find it very hard to imagine that the Russians would back muslim separatists, right next door to Chechnya.

Any insight would be appreciated, I've been trying to sort out what's happening there right now.

In 1992 civil war started in Georgia and Russian military gave some support to Abkhazian volunteers. And now Moscow can't simple leave them alone because of good relationship between Abkhazia (which wants to join Russia as autonomy region) and Russia. About half of Abkhazians now have sitizenship of Russian Federation. This creates problems for both Russia and Georgia when they finding how to settle this situation.

When you're speaking about South Ossetia, don't forget that there is also North Ossetia - Russian region inhabited also with Ossetian. They both wants to reunite once again (like Germanies did) - this is also make problems.

[Dennis G]

found a good site on the war

http://leav-www.army.mil/fmso/fmsopubs/issues/wounded/wounded.htm

[ariweiner]

More on Chechnya (http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/)

[Russian Texan]

More on Chechnya (http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/)

Sorry pal, that site has been around for some time, under different names, and absolutely has no creibility unless you are muslim fanatic ofcourse. But it does provide, for those who chose to believe it, some unknown in the west "facts" about pentagon lies, american atrocities in Iraq and Afganistan. Although it is kinda interesting to see the world events from a muslim point of view.

[Russian Texan]

found a good site on the war

http://leav-www.army.mil/fmso/fmsopubs/issues/wounded/wounded.htm

Very good and accurate article.

It had one very interesting line:
"On 19 January, the Russians finally captured the burnt-out remnants of the Presidential Palace. President Yeltsin prematurely declared that the military stage of the operation was over "
I have heard that somewhere before...

What upsets me the most that in both cases poor leadership (one was an alcoholic and another one is a retard) led to unnecessary loss of soldiers lifes.

[Red]

russia-who lives there?

[vitiaz]

Great post 16 OBr!

Here is Kirasa's site,
http://www.kirasa.com/

Have you any experince with their gear?

[GazB]

"so they did everything from chopping it's barrel , chopping weapon back side (damnit , how it's called .... ) , sticking to weapond some strange thingies from flashlight to those 2 leg's that holding the weapon "

Cutting the barrel, the buttstock and adding flashlights and bipods. Sounds like what the Kiwis and Aussies did to their FN FALs in Vietnam... but they often mounted an early model M203 on them for good measure too.

"One word says it all - APS!"

Have you used the APS-B?
It is funny, in the west one so called gun expert makes a comment about a weapon and the rest just cut and paste their views. For some reason the APS is "large, bulky, heavy weapon" that was a failure. Just looking at the specs it is a similar size to a colt 45 automatic and slightly lighter loaded with 20 rounds. Those reports I ahve read by people who have actually fired the thing say it is very accurate and very comfortable to fire and use... though they have trouble in full auto with controlability.

What do you think of it... obviously it is your preferred choice... did you use it much in full auto or as a normal pistol? Did you use the buttstock much with the weapon?

"- it was once put to me by a Russian that the west's interests would have been better served helping the Russians in Chechnya and Afghanistan. His argument was that like it or not, the Russians are culturally western, they are a stable society and we can do deals with them."

Well just look at where the chechen got their support. The Taleban, Osama Bin Elsewhere. They tend to be religious fanatics. Want a Taleban ruled afghanistan like country in Europe?

How long did the last ceasefire last?

[16 OBr SpN]

Great post 16 OBr!

Here is Kirasa's site,
http://www.kirasa.com/

Have you any experince with their gear?

I've only heard of their armored vests. They say they are very good. I think widely used in FSB and VV.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[16 OBr SpN]

"One word says it all - APS!"

Have you used the APS-B?
It is funny, in the west one so called gun expert makes a comment about a weapon and the rest just cut and paste their views. For some reason the APS is "large, bulky, heavy weapon" that was a failure. Just looking at the specs it is a similar size to a colt 45 automatic and slightly lighter loaded with 20 rounds. Those reports I ahve read by people who have actually fired the thing say it is very accurate and very comfortable to fire and use... though they have trouble in full auto with controlability.

What do you think of it... obviously it is your preferred choice... did you use it much in full auto or as a normal pistol? Did you use the buttstock much with the weapon?



APS/APSB is an extraordinary weapon. Has a powerful round, and the sound of the gun is like a music! :)

Very effective during cleaning-up of a building, because it is smaller and gives you more speed and mobility.
Has a rate of fire, and a good punch - perfect combination. Plus, I personally noticed, it has a devastating psychological effect on the enemy in the indoor areas. My APS was on "Auto" all the time. ;)

Well balanced, easy to handle and very reliable. My APS never jammed, despite all beatings it took.

I didn't use the buttstock at all. IMHO, it's useless. :)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[earl]

Doesn't the APS use the improved Makarov 9x18mm, same as a PMM? I thought these were regarded as underpowered. Did you ever use the Gyurza (9x21) or PSS? Interested in hearing your comments on those.

How about AN-94? Did you ever get to see one?

And, what about 12.7mm sniper rifles, did you see any V-94 or KSVK? Which would be more common? I'm sure recon teams would not need an anti-material rifle, but maybe you saw some?

[16 OBr SpN]

Doesn't the APS use the improved Makarov 9x18mm, same as a PMM? I thought these were regarded as underpowered. Did you ever use the Gyurza (9x21) or PSS? Interested in hearing your comments on those.

How about AN-94? Did you ever get to see one?

And, what about 12.7mm sniper rifles, did you see any V-94 or KSVK? Which would be more common? I'm sure recon teams would not need an anti-material rifle, but maybe you saw some?

APS can use up to 4 types of bullets. One of them is 9mm PMM. Depends on what do you mean by "underpowered". In my personal experience they went through armored vests eaasily.

Gyurza is excellent. I'm sure we will be getting more of those. Used them several times. Bullet is very powerful. Pistol is easy to control, especially after you use APS for so long! ;) Tears the living crap out of bullet vest.

AN-94 is slightly better than AK-74 on a single-shot mode, but when it comes to fully automatic mode, they are no different. Besides, AN-94 is more complicated, has many small details in its construction. I'm not even talking about AK's famous durability, which in my opinion, is far beyond any competition. We were given them while being on the base. Fired couple of magazines and said "Excellent. But no, thanks".

IMHO, AEK-971 is much better than AN-94. It is more accurate than AK-74 in both modes, and is easier to control. Although I don't know what's happening to it. I heard they were additionally modifying it. If it becomes as reliable as AK, I'll be praying for it to be approved as a standard rifle.

KSVK was used by some other brigades of spetsnaz GRU. We didn't use it because there was no need for it in our area of operation.
Anyways, our colleagues took out a chechen commander from 1370 meters away, while he was riding the car. Later, we heard from informants that all that was left of his face was a bottom jaw. :D
All I can say - it is being used.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Kingpin]

Excellent post, thanks for info.

But my question was missed behind this discussion. What can you say about current situation in Chechnya. Does it moving toward peace or it doesn't have positive changes?

[16 OBr SpN]

Excellent post, thanks for info.

But my question was missed behind this discussion. What can you say about current situation in Chechnya. Does it moving toward peace or it doesn't have positive changes?

There are still problems in regions like Vedeno, and Argun gorges. We have to do something about Pankisi gorge.
Conflict has gone into a very slow pace. Mostly surgical attacks against chechens in the mountains. Most of the burden lies on SpN GRU and VDV.

Lots of our new weapons are tested there regularly. I can't name all, but we tested the new model of RPO-A (Shmel'). I saw a video when they fired it against a group of chechens at their base in the Samashki forest. I've seen many things during my service, but THAT was truly something! ;)
Bottom line, if it wasn't for politicians and "human rights" crap, we would solved the Chechen problem for good. IMHO, Chechnya should seize to exist on the map as an autonomy. The name "Chechnya" should stop to exist. We should have separated it between several regions.

Sorry, can't say everything. Besides, I'm retired therefore didn't take part in the 2nd Chechen campaign. Was there only as an advisor. But I noticed that our young guys from SpN are becoming even more skillful, creative, and vicious than us, "old men"! :)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[16 OBr SpN]

Those prostitutes from Georgian government are helping chechens a lot.

Talks about a strike at Pankisi gorge are circling around for quite a while, hopefully, they'll do it as soon as possible.
Georgian government thinks that Americans will protect them! :) My God, how naive!
What are Americans going to do? Start a war with us?
But soon, Georgia will fall apart like Yugoslavia. Their president will be the president of Tbilisi. :) If they want to be a part of NATO - fine, but they'll have to pay us for electricity like a foreign nation - in US dollars by world prices. Otherwise, Georgia will become world's No. 1 importer of candles. :lol:

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Kingpin]

Those prostitutes from Georgian government are helping chechens a lot.

Talks about a strike at Pankisi gorge are circling around for quite a while, hopefully, they'll do it as soon as possible.
Georgian government thinks that Americans will protect them! :) My God, how naive!
What are Americans going to do? Start a war with us?
But soon, Georgia will fall apart like Yugoslavia. Their president will be the president of Tbilisi. :) If they want to be a part of NATO - fine, but they'll have to pay us for electricity like a foreign nation - in US dollars by world prices. Otherwise, Georgia will become world's No. 1 importer of candles. :lol:

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

woot woot woot

There was article in Bussiness Week as i remember which blamed us for supporting separatism in Georgia but you hit the target - we don't do anything except same things NATO did with Yugoslavian republics. :) They supported all kinds of separatism here.

[Upfrontreporting]

16 OBr SpN:

Is it possible that you could post some pictures from your time in Chechnya, sort of a "grunt's eye-view of the situation"?

Perhaps you you have some video you like to share?


regards.

[Kingpin]

16 OBr SpN:

Is it possible that you could post some pictures from your time in Chechnya, sort of a "grunt's eye-view of the situation"?

Perhaps you you have some video you like to share?


regards.

Already asked him before. As for action videos - all tapes are classified. As for photo - not sure he want to disclose his identity and identities of his men due to their specific work. ;) But who knows... Hey, really... what about some photos from family archive? ;)

[16 OBr SpN]

16 OBr SpN:

Is it possible that you could post some pictures from your time in Chechnya, sort of a "grunt's eye-view of the situation"?

Perhaps you you have some video you like to share?


regards.

Already asked him before. As for action videos - all tapes are classified. As for photo - not sure he want to disclose his identity and identities of his men due to their specific work. ;) But who knows... Hey, really... what about some photos from family archive? ;)

Sorry guys. I would love to, but I can't.

Не положено. Ни по уставу, ни по жизни :)

[wreck]

The answers were obvious, though it would have been great to somehow get a glimpse of the, IMO, clearly toughest 'grunt' on this forum.

Anyway, one thing came to my mind. About the movies concerning the chechen conflict(s), has any of you seen 'the purgatory' (christillishe, or something like that). It should be about the first grozny assault. It would be interesting too see that but I don't know where to get it.

The Finnish TV aired "the checkpoint" which locates into chechnya but it was not such a war movie, altough it did have a squad keeping a checkpoint in chechnya.

Do you know any good documentaries about this conflict? Any on the internet? And please, no kavkaz.org crap. Wouldn't mind some footage of RF troops bashing the wahhabis o(r whattahell they are officially called by troops, not insurgents I guess ;) )

[Javehn]

I think you referring to movie called "Chistilishe" , and it's about the first chechen world during new years fights . I am not shure if that story is real , but it's story when Russian forces trying to occupate Hospytal controlled by Chechen rebbel group , and in the head of the group the main surgent of the hospytal . It's talking about lame deccitions made by Russian high command , they willing to loose all the soldiers in chechnya ( in one of minutes in the movie , chechen commander showing Russian tank commander "millitary plan" to occupy chechnya . It was written there - "thrue dead bodies " - giant list of "gruz 200" (dead soldier) notes for all of the coufins and trucks ) . Its talking about the fact that Russian soldier hadn't had any type of training before they get to Chechnya - Russian battalion commander in the movie reffering to his soldiers as 18 years old cannon meat . It's talking about the fact that Chechens got some help from Russian and overseas - top of the line equipment , mercenaries from all over former USSR and arab coutries.
And it's talking about individual bravery of Russian soldiers , and especcially Russian Tank commander ( :D :D :D ) , that willing to sucrifice his life for other soldier that he even never knew .

As i understood , a lot of people on this forum have short stomic ( all those ganders : graphical view ahead **** ) , so you couldn't watch this movie . This movie is very hard , it's done on simple video camera to give a look like it's real time camera taken combat . I watched this movie 5 times , and i want to see it another time . Unbellieveble movie , just like that .

[koster]

Do you know any good documentaries about this conflict? Any on the internet? And please, no kavkaz.org crap. Wouldn't mind some footage of RF troops bashing the wahhabis o(r whattahell they are officially called by troops, not insurgents I guess )
They are called vahhabiti, vahi for short, the general name for all of them is "duhi" though.

[Kingpin]

Do you know any good documentaries about this conflict? Any on the internet? And please, no kavkaz.org crap. Wouldn't mind some footage of RF troops bashing the wahhabis o(r whattahell they are officially called by troops, not insurgents I guess )
They are called vahhabiti, vahi for short, the general name for all of them is "duhi" though.

In english - wahhabis (don't sure about spelling), so he was right.

[Russian Texan]

To Javehn

Nevzorov released a movie "Chistilishche," or "Purgatory" - a television docu-drama based on real events he had witnessed in Chechnya's capital, Grozny, on Jan. 4, 1995.

The film, which graphically depicts the battle for a Grozny hospital - including the crucifixion and decapitation of hostage soldiers - was shown on ORT television with a warning that children and "people with weak nerves" should abstain from watching it.

[vitiaz]

Hey 16,

Has the BTR-T entered service?

http://arms.host.sk/apc/btrt.htm

[Undo]

I have video of APS being fired if you want to see it. I just took it down, but I can put it back up. I think APS is great. Much better than PM for a combat pistol. More stable and larger capacity.

Anyway, if you guys want to see the vids let me know.

[koster]

I would like to see it, if its less then 50mb :)
btw, anyone in here every fired a PB ? 16 OBr ? is it any good ?

[16 OBr SpN]

Vitiaz:
BTR-T hasn't got into service. And I think it will not.

Koster:
I fired PB. It's a good weapon, but still a silenced version of PM. APSB is much better.

Sasha Yefetyev a.k.a. "Gyurza" is a good friend of mine. We served together in Afghanistan. They were at that hospital which is shown in that movie. That day, I was in the opposite part of Grozny, but we had a constant radio contact with them. It was a big mess.

But there wasn't any burial of dead bodies by tanks which supposedly took place as stated in the movie. The chechen commander spoke with the tank's crew by a loudspeaker from inside the building. There weren't any Rolex watches, sitting on top of a tank, smoking and other crap.
The tank commander fired right after the chechen was done saying his message.
There were indeed many foreignors inside the hospital. Moroccans, Algerians, Britons, Afghans and Saudis. After taking over the hospital, among the dead foreignors there was a black guy with a British passport. He was slightly wounded but pretended to be dead. When they wanted to put a control shot in his head, the guy suddenly "woke up" and started begging not to kill him. That bitch was mumbling something about being "a journalist" and "meeting British counsil"! :) Yeah right, a "journalist" with camo, armored vest, AK magazines and grenades!
They tore him apart after tying him onto 2 BTR's.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[wreck]

I have video of APS being fired if you want to see it. I just took it down, but I can put it back up. I think APS is great. Much better than PM for a combat pistol. More stable and larger capacity.

Anyway, if you guys want to see the vids let me know.
Sure, could you put them online for a while? Any other good vids are also welcome.

[Javehn]

What happened to that Tank commander ? Just like in the movie ?
Man .... The soldiers that fought there , must be gone crazy after the **** .
Those Hankala generals should be tied up infront of BTR as a shields . I had some friend that served there , he talled me that kinda **** ,that i didn't wanted to bellieve him . He was in 160 armored battalion or something like this , he was commander of T-62 . They battalion commander is sitting in jail , becose he killed some chechen people ( ??? ) or something like that ...
Anyway , i really don't understand what's the point riding on top of BTR , for me that's the worth thing someone can do , specialy inside city . Yes , i reallize that one shot of Rocket grenade , or missile on the armored machine , or mine under it , and the story is over , but to sit on top - that's just plain suicide . I don't think that those machines should be used inside city during operations, and i don't understand how come they used during operations. I am not talking about the safety issue , that someone can fell down from it .

I heard from my friend that at the beggining ,soldier been transported with regular trucks ! What the hell ??? Really ? Why ?

[16 OBr SpN]

What happened to that Tank commander ? Just like in the movie ?
Man .... The soldiers that fought there , must be gone crazy after the **** .
Those Hankala generals should be tied up infront of BTR as a shields . I had some friend that served there , he talled me that kinda **** ,that i didn't wanted to bellieve him . He was in 160 armored battalion or something like this , he was commander of T-62 . They battalion commander is sitting in jail , becose he killed some chechen people ( ??? ) or something like that ...
Anyway , i really don't understand what's the point riding on top of BTR , for me that's the worth thing someone can do , specialy inside city . Yes , i reallize that one shot of Rocket grenade , or missile on the armored machine , or mine under it , and the story is over , but to sit on top - that's just plain suicide . I don't think that those machines should be used inside city during operations, and i don't understand how come they used during operations. I am not talking about the safety issue , that someone can fell down from it .

I heard from my friend that at the beggining ,soldier been transported with regular trucks ! What the hell ??? Really ? Why ?

They took him out. The commander lost his leg and was unconcious. They crucified him and put him against a window. They used him as a cover so that our guys wouldn't shoot in that direction, and put a machinegunner behind him.
Two spetsnaz units blew holes in the sidewalls of the building and attacked the chechens from flanks and basically pushed them onto the streets, where they were slaughtered by massive fire from our guys positioned in the front.
There were two women snipers. One from Ukraine, and the other from Latvia. One of them died during a firefight, and the other had a grenade blown in her mouth.

As for sitting on top of armor. It is helpful, because if RPG hits it, there are big chances of all people getting burned inside. We learned it in Afghanistan. As for AT mine, I can tell you that you have better chances of survival because you can be blown and thrown on the ground. Of course, you'll get a concussion, and broken bones, but that's much better than dying. In Afghanistan our unit was on a mission. We were riding on a BTR, some of us were on top and four guys chose to sit inside. When we hit a mine, all who sat on top survived, when three out of four inside, died. So, if I didn't sit on top, I wouldn't be talking to you on this forum. ;)

Sitting on top of a BTR is dangerous when they blow up the IED made from artillery shell (fugas), because it has a lot of shrapnel, and stones and pieces of concrete which fly with the energy of the blast.
It's also dangerous when you get into the ambush, where an enemy has a large concentration of firepower with large caliber machineguns (DShK or Utes for example).
BTR's and BMP's can be used inside the city quite efficiently as long as they have infantry support, preferrably with several machinegunners.

As for troop transportation. Don't be surprised! Our "wise" generals can come up with something even more stupid.

But sometimes, driving small cars is better depending on the nature of the operation.
During my service in Afghanistan, in many instances we drove pickups which were trophies taken from destroyed caravans. Although we officially had to turn those vehicles to Afghans. But we chose to report the pickup as "destroyed", and keep it at our disposal.
We dressed up in local clothes and put fake beards so that we wouldn't be noticed by informants of the mujahedin. Put a large caliber machinegun on the back, and drove it for 2 days, looking for the target. Eventually we found him, and he was very surprised to say the least. ;)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Kingpin]

A few questions about 2nd Chechen war:

- 6th company VDV - why they didn't receive reinforcements and other support. Also there was information that along with them as losses was counted spetsnaz unit eliminated days before in mountains. What really happened and why?

- Also this (1999) winter there was video of approx 10-14 soldiers killed by chechens and they said that this is also was spetnaz unit. Are all that true? What can you say about chechens offensive and defensive capabilities comparing to our troops.

- Insurgents withdrawal from Grozny. Ambush on them was planned or (as some from infantry saiyng) it was pure luck? Your mark for this assault on Grozny - was it properly planned and executed or not?

- Population support. Did our units received support and inteligence info from locals?

- Arms question: Bizon and SV-99/98 - what can you say about them?

[16 OBr SpN]

A few questions about 2nd Chechen war:

- 6th company VDV - why they didn't receive reinforcements and other support. Also there was information that along with them as losses was counted spetsnaz unit eliminated days before in mountains. What really happened and why?

- Also this (1999) winter there was video of approx 10-14 soldiers killed by chechens and they said that this is also was spetnaz unit. Are all that true? What can you say about chechens offensive and defensive capabilities comparing to our troops.

- Insurgents withdrawal from Grozny. Ambush on them was planned or (as some from infantry saiyng) it was pure luck? Your mark for this assault on Grozny - was it properly planned and executed or not?

- Population support. Did our units received support and inteligence info from locals?

- Arms question: Bizon and SV-99/98 - what can you say about them?

6th company of VDV was a classic example of miscommunication, slow reaction of the generals, and of course fault of the military intelligence.
Guys got an order to secure a height in order to lock down chechen withdrawal from the Argun gorge. What they didn't know is that a large group of chechens were already there. Chechens set up a rally point to which they moved in small groups The commander of the 6th company sent out a small recon unit in advance but the guys stumbled on a chechen position. They took out that position but disclosed their presence. That's when some 2,500 chechens started storming the position held by some 90 paratroopers. Our guys were calling in air and artillery support, but they never got it. Besides, Chechens had the superior firepower with mortars and AGS-17's. Our guys had only AK and PKM's. Rest is history. We lost 84 guys, and chechens (among them many Arabs and Afghans) lost more than 800. Battle lasted for almost two days.

Хотя честно вам скажу, наших пацанов просто "сдали" чехам. За это я бы Трошева сам расстрелял.

That very day, two recon groups from the 2nd OBr SpN were in a fierce firefight after they stumbled into a large group of chechens in Shatoy. I can't get into the details of that operation. We lost 33 guys. Chechens lost 268.
Biggest lost of spetsnaz was during the 1st chechen war, on January 14, 1995. It is one of the blackest days in my life.
Recon group from our 16 OBr SpN had stayed in a building in Grozny which was mined by the chechens. Chechens blew up that building late at night. We lost 37 people. Most of them were my very good friends, many of them were like brothers to me.

As for that video you are talking about with "10-14 spetsnaz soldiers". That's a chechen propaganda. There wasn't any case like that.

Chechen withdrawal from Grozny was expected. But there was a slight mistake during an ambush on them.
Main fault was that we attacked a relatively small group, which was a forward recon unit of a much bigger unit. Our guys should have positioned a multi row ambush, where they would let the first unit pass and hit the main forces, while the first unit would be basically cut off and quickly destroyed because of no support from the rear. When we attacked that recon group, we lost the element of surprise and chechens were ready for an attack. But still, Grads and TOS-1 did a marvelous job of burning those bastards. Again, if it wasn't for that mistake, we could have slaughtered them all.

Population support? Depending on areas. In some of the areas, people were openly friendly to us. In some - not, especially Vedeno, and Argun. Again you have to understand the chechen society with their clan structure. This structure is complicated but gives many advantages. Many of our allies are people from the clans which are long time enemies of clans of Basayev, Maskhadov, Gelaev, etc.

Bizon - shot it couple of times. Cannot say anything good or bad, because we didn't use them in the battlefield. But in my personal opinion, this weapon is not even close to AS Val in all terms.

SV-98 - heard many complaints about it. Guys didn't like it at all.
KSVK is used much wider.

Chechen tactics is a very long subject to post which requires a lot of time. I'll post on it later when I have enough time.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[wreck]

How about RPO-A/Z? Have you used them or been involved in actions using these weapons? Guess they are quite good for urban combat and taking out enemy positions? Just wondering how widely they are used and are they popular among troops?

[16 OBr SpN]

How about RPO-A/Z? Have you used them or been involved in actions using these weapons? Guess they are quite good for urban combat and taking out enemy positions? Just wondering how widely they are used and are they popular among troops?

RPO was my "second wife"! :D

It is indeed very effective against enemy trenches, and in urban environment. Most efficient when fired against closed areas - rooms, machinegun positions, underground tunnels, etc. RPO-Z burns the crap out of both living and unliving objects. One nice shot and you got yourself a fresh, hot shish-kebab! :D

RPO-A creates a very high pressure of some 5-6 kg. per 1 square centimeter. A machine gunner was positioned inside a small one-story house, we fired the RPO, it took him out, and the whole building along with him! :)
The blast wave severely damaged the main wall, and it went down just like a card house.

It is very popular among our troops and used very widely. There is a new version of RPO which was recently tested in chechnya. The new RPO-Z projectile is modified to damage even bigger areas. RPO-A projectile has become more powerful too.
I don't know all details of it, but seen the results on a video tape. Very impressive!

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[16 OBr SpN]

Chechen tactics:

Currently what we are dealing with in Chechnya is a typical example of guerilla warfare. During the early stages of both wars we had a relatively formed enemy, with fronts and positions being certain. After main chechen forces were crushed, especially in Grozny and Shali, their surviving elements had quickly moved into populated areas in order to flow into civilians. Many of them had created weapons caches in every significant area of operations. Some chechen commanders had set their multiple bases in the mountains and forests. Food, ammunition and other provisions were being transported to them through Georgian border; towns close-by; and some other sources.

Their first goal is getting a thorough intel on any of our bases nearby - defensive perimeter; number of soldiers; supply routes; number of armored vehicles; patrol routes; name of commanding officer, etc. Almost 75% of that info came from some elements of the local population. In order to get an idea of the defense system of the base, the chechens widely used night attacks. For example, small group of 3-4 people fires several mortars, and a their sniper starts shooting down the perimeter of the base. Once our guys start to shoot back, chechen guerillas carefully film it, and quetly take off. That's how they find out both positions and types of weapons being used. Before they leave, they usually put several signal rockets of different colors at a 50 meter distance from their position. For example, RED rocket's tripwire is set up facing South-West off their position, so that if a patrols approaches their position, they will be able to calculate the possible routes of approach. But that tactic works only in 50% of cases, because usually, unless you are total retard, you move very carefully, and look for any ****y traps and wires.

The second element of chechen terrorists is their high mobility. They are always on the move. Once they set up a certain plan of actions, they set up a rally point at 5-10 km. away from the destination point. Then, they break down onto several smaller groups and move independently in order not to be found by recon groups which operate very intensively. Chechens maintain constant radio communication between each other during their movement. If one group gets ambushed by our guys, they warn the other groups, who in response break into even smaller units and take an alternative route which is known only to the commander of a group and is given to his soldiers only under those circumstances. Therefore, one of the most important goals during an ambush was to capture the commander alive, because they don't wear any different uniform.

To be continued…

Sorry guys, it is a very long subject, while I have to work to feed my family. :)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[earl]

This is my favorite thread now. I really appreciate the time your are taking to explain this stuff, it's very interesting, and a rare opportunity, especially for those of us who don't speak Russian.

Was there much use of different warheads in the RPG-7V? I've seen one that looks like a big cylinder, I think its called TBG-7V, and is a thermobaric/FAE warhead, like the RPO-A but much smaller probably.

[Bootneck]

I'll second that. This thread has really come to represent everything this forum could/should be. Thanks 16 OBr SpN.


This is my favorite thread now. I really appreciate the time your are taking to explain this stuff, it's very interesting, and a rare opportunity, especially for those of us who don't speak Russian.

Was there much use of different warheads in the RPG-7V? I've seen one that looks like a big cylinder, I think its called TBG-7V, and is a thermobaric/FAE warhead, like the RPO-A but much smaller probably.

[RomanS]

16 SBR

Bratok, zdarovo. Ti iz kakogo goroda?? Vi kak vhodili? Cherez Mozdok ili Vladik?

I';m gonna speak English for the rest of the guys here.

What Sobr were you in? What city I mean.

Here is me and my friends. I'm sitting down left of Mikhail Kalashnikov


http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/spets2.jpg

[Javehn]

Да ну нахуй ... Братан , я правильно понимаю почему не у всех лица замазанны ?

[RomanS]

dumau chto pravilno

[Russian Texan]

Рома, 16 ОБрСпН это не Собр, а 16 Отдельная Бригада Специального Назначения из под Рязани. Страна должна знать своих Героев:)

[16 OBr SpN]

Permskiy OMON:

Zdorova,

You mistaken a little bit. :) I'm not from SOBR.
16 OBr SpN (16 отд. бр. CпН ГРУ ГШ МО РФ). Dislocation: Chuchkovo, Ryazan.
Currently retired. :)

Did you serve in Permskiy OMON?

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[RomanS]

Me and Undo

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/IMG_2048.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/IMG_2077.jpg
Im wearing SPHERA

[RomanS]

16 Sbr

Sorry got the "obaznochenie" all mixed up.

As for Permskii OMON, lets say I know a lot of them.

[RomanS]

Was thinking about Otryad Bistrogo Reagirovaniya

[Javehn]

Неплохо вы ребята хуярили этих чумазых уродов в чечне . Усли бы мы в Израиловке так же отпиздили Арабов вместо того чтоб их любить... Был бы всемирная дружба народов и уродов и ваще сказка ...

[RomanS]

16 obr

kak tebya zovut. A to grushnikom tebya nazivat , lol ny ne po nashemy.

If not USA and my citizenship here, I would be with either Krechet or with extra exersice and diet apply for Vityaz. Got some very good friends from both. Omon was just the start.

[Upfrontreporting]

This has without doubt been one of the most interesting threads for a long time in this forum. Keep it running.

With regards to speaking russian could you guys refrain from that please, I suppose most people in this forum don't speak russian.
Spasiba ;)

[RomanS]

also about Vedeno.

Ever been there? 6 of my very very close friends left to sleep there. Zhani vedeno. You might now what happened. Went to pay respect to them last summer in Berezniki. Their Major was my instructor at mvd school.

[RomanS]

here are some very close friends "brothers" of mine.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/vladimir4.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/Vladimir.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/P1010010_2.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/P1010013_2copy.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/Vladimir3.jpg

[16 OBr SpN]

Chechen tactics:

Chechen widely implemented a tactic of multi-row ambushes, which was almost a standard mode of operation against Afghan mujahedin. Many of the chechen commanders served in the Soviet army during Afghan war.

Let's say chechens set up an ambsh on a thin mountain road. They would separate the unit into three smaller groups (forward, center, and rear). Depending on formation of the unit they want to ambush, they change the number of soldiers and their armament on each of those three sectors. Each sector then positioned on a certain distance, again, depending on type, length, and firepower of a our column. From my experience chechens tend to heavily arm the center sector, because it is effective against weak flanks of long columns. While forward and rear sectors can engage any possible backup which might move to help the ambushed units. Attack goes under a "classical" scheme. They first blow up a charge next to the first car, and then next to the last car in the column. Column stops and chechens start massive fire especially with heavy weapons (RPG; machineguns). The forward sector also includes a sniper who starts picking out the commander, then the soldier with radio, and then the most active soldiers who don't show signs of surprise and panic.
Depending on the goal of ambush, chechens may either fight until they destroy the column and its soldiers, or leave as soon as they lose the element of surprise. Our experience in Afghanistan showed that if a column moves without a proper recon or air support, it becomes an easy target. Unfortunately, those lessons were forgot by some unit commanders who ignored this basic rule and in the end, paid a dear price for that mistake.

Chechens widely used a classical tactic of using miscommunication among troops to their advantage. Example: two men unit gets between positions of two platoons. Once in position chechens fire couple of RPG's in direction of each unit and then quitely leave. While two goups would start basically pounding each other with mortars and grenades.

Chechens widely use cars, especially SUV's, where they put launching pads for rockets, 80mm. grenade launcher, mortars, or heavy machine guns. They stop at a relatively safe distance and start firing at our positions. Usually after 3-4 shots, chehchens either leave or change their position. This tactic is used especially against our posts.

The chechens received a good training in explosives. Their favorite type of explosive is a makeshift bomb made of artillery shell, and usually detonated by a radio signal. It is made specifically to inflict heavy damages against ground forces. Chechens have become bery skillful in area of explosives. Along with charges buried under the ground, chechens set up charges on trees, hang them over the ground, set them on the walls. They also use old cars in order to pack them with explosives and leave on the road as if the car is broken. AT mines are not used often any more, but sometimes can be used against ground troops. Example: take an AT mine, bury it vertically facing the desired direction; put a radio detonator, put a bag filled with bolts and screws on the front side of the mine. As a result, you got a powerful AP mine.

To be continued...

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[16 OBr SpN]

also about Vedeno.

Ever been there? 6 of my very very close friends left to sleep there. Zhani vedeno. You might now what happened. Went to pay respect to them last summer in Berezniki. Their Major was my instructor at mvd school.

During the 1st Chechen war, I spent most of the time in Vedeno and Nojay-Yurt.

Ambush against OMON in Zhani-Vedeno was a direct result of a poor decision-making by some generals.
1) OMON were sent to "zachistka" (clean-up) with no co-ordination with VDV and SpN, because Vedeno is the area of their respnsibility.
2) Again, no prior recon of the route.
3) No heavy weapons to suppress chechen positions.

In an area like Vedeno, these mistakes can make you pay the dear price, as seen in example of Permskiy OMON.

Nevertheless, guys fought very hard and didn't give up.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[16 OBr SpN]

This has without doubt been one of the most interesting threads for a long time in this forum. Keep it running.



Thank you!
I hope for some of you, future soldiers, it will be helpful.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[GazB]

I want to agree, this is a great, thread, thankyou 16 OBr SpN and others for taking the time to make it so interesting with information and now photos too.

Can I ask if you have used the Arbalet grenade launcher? If you have what did you think of it?

(here is a pic)
http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr14/arbalet01.jpg

[Kingpin]

This has without doubt been one of the most interesting threads for a long time in this forum. Keep it running.

With regards to speaking russian could you guys refrain from that please, I suppose most people in this forum don't speak russian.
Spasiba ;)

They just discussing from which units they are and where they fought during 1st Chechen War. Our Israeli colleague Javehn just said that he is dreaming about Israel dealing with arabs in the same way we did with Chechens :)

[venture160]

OMON -- in your picture there is a bpm, how do those old things hold up, i have heard that some have been around for a few decades and are still in service... how is the armor on those? would an rpg disable one?

[Kingpin]

OMON -- in your picture there is a bpm, how do those old things hold up, i have heard that some have been around for a few decades and are still in service... how is the armor on those? would an rpg disable one?

RPG can disable every armor in the world :)

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Yup this has been the most productive thread for a long time keep up the good work. woot

[Javehn]

Kingpin wrote :
RPG can disable every armor in the world

Hardly ... But i guess even Rpg-7 can disable BMP2 ( the one on the picture)
So , i understood that you been in OMON , 16sbr spn . How were you deployed in Chechnya ? You were organized like an Army ?
When you went out on mission , did you went in the small groups of 8 -12 people , or you went as a platoon or company sizes ? What type of mission your unit did , and how did you act on engagements ? I also heard that the mapes you had waren't updated sence ww2. I guess that's bull**** , right ?
The overwhelming muber of casualties that were when taking objects tells me that you tryed to sieze object on big numbers up to brigade , and used for it ww2 method of leaping ahead straight to object , and then charge . If you could use art or air heavy support in cities , then why not to shatter the buildings instead of charging them .
There is some building cleansing method developed in Israel , where you had force infront of building , then troops were put on the roof of the building by helicopters , this force would move from high stores up to bottom - much more convinient instead of moving up .The force wouldn't try to heart fighters and tryed not to come with direct contact with them - they just drove the fighters down the flors with overhelming use of fire . Finaly this force would drivven all fighters down the street , where they would be touch downed by heavy machinery on the street.
I heard you used some tactic closed to this in Chechnya . Is that right ?

Thank you , and my salute to warriors .

[wreck]

Kingpin wrote :
RPG can disable every armor in the world
...
The overwhelming muber of casualties that were when taking objects tells me that you tryed to sieze object on big numbers up to brigade , and used for it ww2 method of leaping ahead straight to object , and then charge . If you could use art or air heavy support in cities , then why not to shatter the buildings instead of charging them .
...
Thank you , and my salute to warriors .
You should do some research. Just see some pictures of grozny if you want to see was air support or arty used. Mostly the problems were in coordinating the strikes and radio use (incompetence, incompliance)

Buildings and villages were levelled with planes, helos and arty. In the first war everything was even worse, the russian high command thought that they could invade chechnya with ease and face just mild resistance. The worst example being the poor mikov-brigade which drove to grozny in one huge column without any support...

Since the catastrophic first conflict RF has taken a different approach ;)

[Kingpin]

Kingpin wrote :
RPG can disable every armor in the world

Hardly ...

It depends what do you mean. You you going to shoot rpg round in frontal armor of vehicle there are a lot of vehicles for which this doesn't produce any effect. But even Abrams can be effectively disabled by shooting at weak spots of tank

[16 OBr SpN]

So , i understood that you been in OMON , 16sbr spn . How were you deployed in Chechnya ? You were organized like an Army ?
When you went out on mission , did you went in the small groups of 8 -12 people , or you went as a platoon or company sizes ? What type of mission your unit did , and how did you act on engagements ? I also heard that the mapes you had waren't updated sence ww2. I guess that's bull**** , right ?
The overwhelming muber of casualties that were when taking objects tells me that you tryed to sieze object on big numbers up to brigade , and used for it ww2 method of leaping ahead straight to object , and then charge . If you could use art or air heavy support in cities , then why not to shatter the buildings instead of charging them .
There is some building cleansing method developed in Israel , where you had force infront of building , then troops were put on the roof of the building by helicopters , this force would move from high stores up to bottom - much more convinient instead of moving up .The force wouldn't try to heart fighters and tryed not to come with direct contact with them - they just drove the fighters down the flors with overhelming use of fire . Finaly this force would drivven all fighters down the street , where they would be touch downed by heavy machinery on the street.
I heard you used some tactic closed to this in Chechnya . Is that right ?

Thank you , and my salute to warriors .

No I wasn't in OMON. I was in army recon.

Number of people depended on each operation. Number of our units varied from 6-16 men groups; and up to 30-60 men groups backed by armor and choppers.
Our missions included recon, raids, ambushes, etc. Each group has its own area of responsibility, but sometimes we were deployed within regular infantry divisions.

We are organized a little different. Each spetsnaz brigade is located within the respective military district, but we are not under their command. We are controlled strictly by General Staff. There are more differences, but I can't disclose that. Sorry. :)

Types of engagement differ depending on the specific situation. But most important factors were mobility, concealment, and speed.

There were old maps made in 1960's, which were given to some regular infantry troops. But of course, I haven't heard of any WWII maps. :)

Storming of the buildings was somewhat similar, but we didn't go through the roof. The Israeli technique wouldn't work in Grozny. We blasted holes in the walls from both sides and simultaneously started attacking the guerillas from two directions, pushing them outside, where a heavy volume of frontal fire settled the whole thing very quickly. As for the guys sitting on top floors, we just put explosives on several weak points and blew the floors up, sending mujahedin to their beloved "40 virgins" along with the building. ;) :)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Kingpin]

Storming of the buildings was somewhat similar, but we didn't go through the roof. The Israeli technique wouldn't work in Grozny. We blasted holes in the walls from both sides and simultaneously started attacking the guerillas from two directions, pushing them outside, where a heavy volume of frontal fire settled the whole thing very quickly. As for the guys sitting on top floors, we just put explosives on several weak points and blew the floors up, sending mujahedin to their beloved "40 virgins" along with the building. ;) :)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

So it was you who leveled all this stuff behind :)

http://www.wio.ru/anti/oo01.jpg

Hehe. Just kidding :)

[koster]

nice picture mate, you got anymore like that ?


This has without doubt been one of the most interesting threads for a long time in this forum. Keep it running.

[Javehn]

Thanks for the answers , 16 obr spn . :) I always wait for your answers , as they are the best here .

About the system i menchioned , it's ofcorse have limited use to special cases . We use variety of technics , and we use also something like the one u used . ( to flank fighters inside the house by blowing up inside ) . It's generally much better to blow new entering , instead of use existed entering , that can be mined, or targetted . Just out of curiosity , why this one will not work ??

You said that you made raids . That means that the local fighters didn't lived together with the local population ?? They had separate bases or something like that ??

Another question , you said about groups of 6-16 people . To what this group divided ? Ofcorse for every mission it's different , so lets say when you go to recon mission ( that's when i understand u useing the small 6-16 groups ) . You have sniper group consisted of sniper and his number 2 , then machine gun guy with number 2 , rpgist with number 2 , and commander with number 2/radist ? Does it work something like that in your groups ?

About the use of Radio , if you couldn't use radio , how the hell you were connecting with other units ? To adjust arty or plane attack ?
Thank you .

[wreck]

Thanks for the answers , 16 obr spn . :) I always wait for your answers , as they are the best here .

About the system i menchioned , it's ofcorse have limited use to special cases . We use variety of technics , and we use also something like the one u used . ( to flank fighters inside the house by blowing up inside ) . It's generally much better to blow new entering , instead of use existed entering , that can be mined, or targetted . Just out of curiosity , why this one will not work ??

You said that you made raids . That means that the local fighters didn't lived together with the local population ?? They had separate bases or something like that ??

Another question , you said about groups of 6-16 people . To what this group divided ? Ofcorse for every mission it's different , so lets say when you go to recon mission ( that's when i understand u useing the small 6-16 groups ) . You have sniper group consisted of sniper and his number 2 , then machine gun guy with number 2 , rpgist with number 2 , and commander with number 2/radist ? Does it work something like that in your groups ?

About the use of Radio , if you couldn't use radio , how the hell you were connecting with other units ? To adjust arty or plane attack ?
Thank you .
Sorry just have one thing to as from you Javehn, how old are you? You ask and talk really strange stuff...

[Javehn]

Sorry , that's just my english sounds very funny and strange . Somehow i passed my exams with excellent , but that was 5 years ago . I am 22 years old , i am from Israel . I been tanker in Israel army ..
If you weren't in the army , those question will sounds strange to you .

[wreck]

Sorry , that's just my english sounds very funny and strange . Somehow i passed my exams with excellent , but that was 5 years ago . I am 22 years old , i am from Israel . I been tanker in Israel army ..
If you weren't in the army , those question will sounds strange to you .
Yup, I was in the army and that's why some of them sound a bit strange.

[16 OBr SpN]

Thanks for the answers , 16 obr spn . :) I always wait for your answers , as they are the best here .

About the system i menchioned , it's ofcorse have limited use to special cases . We use variety of technics , and we use also something like the one u used . ( to flank fighters inside the house by blowing up inside ) . It's generally much better to blow new entering , instead of use existed entering , that can be mined, or targetted . Just out of curiosity , why this one will not work ??

You said that you made raids . That means that the local fighters didn't lived together with the local population ?? They had separate bases or something like that ??

Another question , you said about groups of 6-16 people . To what this group divided ? Ofcorse for every mission it's different , so lets say when you go to recon mission ( that's when i understand u useing the small 6-16 groups ) . You have sniper group consisted of sniper and his number 2 , then machine gun guy with number 2 , rpgist with number 2 , and commander with number 2/radist ? Does it work something like that in your groups ?

About the use of Radio , if you couldn't use radio , how the hell you were connecting with other units ? To adjust arty or plane attack ?
Thank you .

I'm not saying that chopper insertion is impossible, but it's more complicated and requires more resources:

First of all there should be several attack choppers to cover the transport.
With the amount of firepower that chechens have, its more dangerous. They have not only RPG's, but also heavy machineguns and AA rockets. And they sure know how to use them.
Besides, while unloading that many people, chopper becomes vulnerable.

Again, it all depends on each situation. There is no standard solution for each problem.

Raids can go both against chechen bases, and houses where they might be staying. Everything depends on intel that we get. Some groups have very well equipped bases in the mountains and forests, while others prefer to blend with the population. Although most of the raids go in the mountains, forests, and border zones.

I cannot share information about groups. Sorry.
All I can say is that there are many options. Snipers, grenadiers, machingunners, AGS operators, translators, sappers/demolishers, etc... all depends on the mission.

Where did I say that we couldn't use radios? :)
Chechens couldn't listen to our radio communications. Besides, we have a certain schedule of radio contacts with the base, depending on the mission. Although we usually keep radio silence while on the move :)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[GazB]

Kingpin wrote : Quote:
RPG can disable every armor in the world


Hardly ... But i guess even Rpg-7 can disable BMP2 ( the one on the picture)


I'd suggest you listen to Kingpin in this case... he is certainly right. There is no armoured vehicle in the world that has all round armour thicker than the penetration capability of even old RPG rounds. The rear and roof armour on most armoured vehicles is generally pretty weak. Even Main battle tanks are designed with the frontal armour to stop the enemies main tank gun, but the sides to stop cannon rounds and rear to stop HMG rounds. Even the latest model Abrams doesn't have 200+mm armour for its roof or belly, and current RPG models can penetrate over 600mm. The Drodz 2 and Arena active defence systems can destroy rockets in flight and are impressive systems but still not perfect and will not protect 360 degrees angle all of the time.

[Javehn]

Hmm .. Hmm... :oops:

I think i wrote that , sorry

[16 OBr SpN]

16 obr

kak tebya zovut. A to grushnikom tebya nazivat , lol ny ne po nashemy.

If not USA and my citizenship here, I would be with either Krechet or with extra exersice and diet apply for Vityaz. Got some very good friends from both. Omon was just the start.

I can't say my name, sorry.
My colleagues call me simply, "Сибиряк" ("Siberian").

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Bootneck]

When you refer to marines are these Naval Infantry Spetsnaz or "regular" marines? Sorry, I'm not very well informed on Russian military organization but after this thread I'm trying to learn.

Thanks again for the great information. It's appreciated.



Marines were the ones who inflicted the most damage to chechens. Those guys were indeed crazy and ruthless sons of bitches! :)
Chechens were very scared of facing marines, because they heard of their fanatical fighting style. In the radio we could hear chechens say "Внимание - морпехи!" ("Danger - marines!"). There were numerous cases when chechens were jumping off top floors of buildings when they saw marines storming them.

[16 OBr SpN]

When you refer to marines are these Naval Infantry Spetsnaz or "regular" marines? Sorry, I'm not very well informed on Russian military organization but after this thread I'm trying to learn.

Thanks again for the great information. It's appreciated.



I meant regular marines. They fought one of the most tough battles during fight of Grozny.
As for Naval Spetsnaz (SpN VMF), I'm not aware of their presense in Chechnya. Because of its very specific nature, and areas of responsibility we call Naval Spetsnaz, "Hawaaians"! :lol:

There is one big organizational difference between them. Regular marines are controlled by their Fleet Commands, while Naval Spetsnaz, just like army spetsnaz, is controlled by GRU (Military Intelligence). So they are our "step-brothers"! :)

Regular marine brigades have their own recon groups, who operate almost every day in Chechnya.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[wreck]

Just some more on the SpN, how much are there if compared to regular army troops? Are they nowadays like the rangers, or are they still a smaller unit?

[16 OBr SpN]

Just some more on the SpN, how much are there if compared to regular army troops? Are they nowadays like the rangers, or are they still a smaller unit?

Spetsnaz GRU: Currently there are 8 brigades total: 16th, 22nd, 14th, 12th, 67th, 24th, 2nd, and 3rd. I cannot disclose the total number of soldiers, sorry.

Spetsnaz VDV (paratroopers): There is the 45th recon detachment of VDV. It is under the command of GRU and trained by officers from SpN GRU. Very high class unit.

They are still small units. Thankfully, no steps to increase their numbers have been taken. Usually, when quantity rises, quality goes down.

Interior Ministry has gone in the wrong direction of increasing the number of their SF troops. The quality had suffered tremendously. I have a friend from 22 OBr SpN who trains SF of Interior Ministry (Vitiaz, etc.), and he says that quality of soldiers is becoming worse.

FSB:
"Alfa" and "Vympel" are still high class professionals. Their numbers are not known to me.

SVR (Foreign Intelligence):
They have the SF unit. Probably the most covert unit in Russian SF. I don't even know their name. I only heard they are picking the best from all other SF units.

From all of these, spetsnaz GRU has seen the most action in almost all conflicts were Soviet/Russian interests were involved.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Kingpin]

Check your PM please.

BTW Does army including SpN units and interior troops have plans about standardising of their gear and weapons? Now seems that everyone is equipping with all things on their own.

[Javehn]

Another couple of questions . What happened in the city of Budenovsk . Why special forces had no luck to recover hospital there ? And something about the gear of soldiers . Have u used those short versions of Kalachnikov (Bizon ? ) , and did you had night vision googles ? I had a arguement weither every Russian soldier had night vision googles. Did you also had thermal imager systems ?
Another question , maybe if you know , what was the personal gear of your tankers ... (uniform , vest , boots , helmet , weapons , so on )

And one more , how did you managed with body traps , mines or off road charges ? Did before some column or mission force drove on some road , information on the road was collected , and was recon before the column itself ?
Thank you on advance.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

16 OBr SpN keep up the good work, its nice to hear about special forces that arnt American. its a good change of pace.
keep it up
the bastardchild
p.s. do you have any pics of russian equipment/units that you could show us?

[16 OBr SpN]

Check your PM please.

BTW Does army including SpN units and interior troops have plans about standardising of their gear and weapons? Now seems that everyone is equipping with all things on their own.

Not enough financing.
Although VDV and SpN are much better equipped. Regular infantry is becoming much better equipped than it was before, but still there is a long way to go.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Javehn]

Sorry , i have another question . How did u used your APC's ? If APC would been ambushed or fired upon , did u used it as a fire base assisting attacking soldiers and calling for support , or the APC would try to take cover position , and the ground soldier would fight ? Where will be the team commander in that case ?
And another question , did you worked with tanks together ? Did you had a high level of supporting one another and working integrated ? In that case , who would be the commander over that kinda task force - the Tank group commander or the infantry commander ?

Again , thanks in advance .

[16 OBr SpN]

Another couple of questions . What happened in the city of Budenovsk . Why special forces had no luck to recover hospital there ? And something about the gear of soldiers . Have u used those short versions of Kalachnikov (Bizon ? ) , and did you had night vision googles ? I had a arguement weither every Russian soldier had night vision googles. Did you also had thermal imager systems ?
Another question , maybe if you know , what was the personal gear of your tankers ... (uniform , vest , boots , helmet , weapons , so on )

And one more , how did you managed with body traps , mines or off road charges ? Did before some column or mission force drove on some road , information on the road was collected , and was recon before the column itself ?
Thank you on advance.

What happened in Buddenovsk was a direct consequence of politicians getting mixed up. You see, right before that tragic event we already had rumors circulating about "peace talks". Guess who was behind that initiative - Chernomyrdin!! The very same guy who was talking on the radio with Basaev! I don't want to go there, you guys know the rest. Some other mistakes were done on the planning level, but I can't go in there.

Bizon: tested it in the base. Like I said, I can't say anything, because we didn't use them in the field. Only AS Val.

NV goggles are available, but unfortunately there is still a shortage.

We used good old sappers to check the roads for mines and IED's. When it came to mountains or forests, we defused ****y traps ourselves. Again, we usually break our group into three smaller groups: front, center and rear. All groups move within the eyesight of each other. Of course, most burden lies on the front group.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[16 OBr SpN]

Sorry , i have another question . How did u used your APC's ? If APC would been ambushed or fired upon , did u used it as a fire base assisting attacking soldiers and calling for support , or the APC would try to take cover position , and the ground soldier would fight ? Where will be the team commander in that case ?
And another question , did you worked with tanks together ? Did you had a high level of supporting one another and working integrated ? In that case , who would be the commander over that kinda task force - the Tank group commander or the infantry commander ?

Again , thanks in advance .

If an APC along with the troops gets into an ambush, it becomes one of the first targets on the list. First thing we had to do is to make sure the APC gets out of line of fire, then it gives massive fire to suppress enemy positions. Usually, if the chechens do not manage to blast the APC they quickly withdraw, leaving a machinegunner to hold us down while the rest take off. They also ****y trap possible paths of approach to their positions.
Basically, APC's and troops, both cover each other.

We didn't use tanks, because they were not efficient in the usual theater of our operation. In some instances we worked with tank crews, when a certain enemy position had to be blown (building for example). In the infantry vs. infantry situation, tanks play a supportive role. In that case infantry commander has a higher level of command.

I apologise if some of my responses seem incomplete. Military tactics is a very complex and always changing subject with no standard solution. Besides I have to keep in mind some of my limitations. :)

I think Israelis call it "Bitahon Sade" ;)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Javehn]

I apologise if some of my responses seem incomplete. Military tactics is a very complex and always changing subject with no standard solution. Besides I have to keep in mind some of my limitations.

I think Israelis call it "Bitahon Sade"


:) Holly crap , dude ! How did you knew that ?? Ok , thanks for the answers anyway . Sorry you can't tell me more :( . By the way , i still would like to know what gear and uniforms russian tankers have . If you would find something about it , i would be very very apreciative . ;)

Kinda strange question - Most russian soldiers wear "bandana" on they heads. Why ? Because it looks cool ?? :) .

Did you had support and combatand soldier there , while support not entering fight zone , or you didn't had that kinda divide (obshevoyskoviye soldati ..) ?

[koster]

you can put bandana around your neck at night, like a scarf (sp?) so you won't get cold, and also, no your face, so you won't get recognized.

[RomanS]

16 obr spn,

Bro
As far as I remember "Vimpel" is no longer under FSB.

As for Vityaz and other spetsnaz groups of MVD, I have to agree with you. They don't spend as much time and attention for them anymore like they use to during the first Chech war.

However my friends from SKIF are still as strong as ever. Most of their olders go back to ODON and even the first Dzerzhinskii Brigade. They still train and preserve the red beret with much pride.

Even my brothers from OMSN try to keep up with the programm, despite the budget jokes.
Speaking of, my very close friend now is oficially part of Krechet of Izhevsk, as a sniper. I'm hoping to go and see him this summer again with my friend Undo.

Here are some bros from Tula OMSN
http://ns.sitecity.ru/users/antiterror/storage/album_0109031355_4794.jpg

http://ns.sitecity.ru/users/antiterror/storage/album_0109031355_1048.jpg

http://ns.sitecity.ru/users/antiterror/storage/album_0109031355_8264.jpg

http://ns.sitecity.ru/users/antiterror/storage/album_0109031355_4624.jpg

[Dmitri]

Most russian soldiers wear "bandana" on they headsI believe it is only for spetsnaz

[16 OBr SpN]

16 obr spn,

Bro
As far as I remember "Vimpel" is no longer under FSB.



Along with Alfa, it is still a part of ЦСН ФСБ РФ - Special Purpose Center of FSB. Officially it's called Department "V". Alfa is called Department "A".

As far as I know, some members of Vympel have been transferred to SVR's spetsnaz.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[earl]

16 OBr SpN, did you ever use these pistols?

OЦ-23 Дротик - 5.45x18mm, 24 round magazine, and can fire 3-rnd bursts.

OЦ-33 Пернач - 9x18mm, 18 or 27 round magazine, and can fire full auto like APS, and can attach a metal frame buttstock.

These always seemed very interesting to me, I would be interested to hear your opinion if you had a chance to look at them.

edit - And I like the patch under your name, this is what you wore? I thought the bat meant intelligence officers, but I guess it is reconaissance - or both?

[16 OBr SpN]

16 OBr SpN, did you ever use these pistols?

OЦ-23 Дротик - 5.45x18mm, 24 round magazine, and can fire 3-rnd bursts.

OЦ-33 Пернач - 9x18mm, 18 or 27 round magazine, and can fire full auto like APS, and can attach a metal frame buttstock.

These always seemed very interesting to me, I would be interested to hear your opinion if you had a chance to look at them.

edit - And I like the patch under your name, this is what you wore? I thought the bat meant intelligence officers, but I guess it is reconaissance - or both?

I haven't used Дротик, therefore can't say anything good or bad.

As for Пернач, I know that it's still being further modified. It's actually a perspective weapon, but needs some refinements.

The patch that I put was the one I had during my service. They have changed the patch to a new design. Now it's a night owl, holding a sword, with parachute on the background and with "spetsnaz GRU" sign on the bottom. Although, some brigades still use the patches with bats on it (14 and 3 Obr SpN). Below is the picture of the new patch:

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

http://www.agentura.ru/dossier/russia/symbolics/RU/specgru/gru1.jpg

[Haiw]

Just something slightly relevant; isn't it supposed to be written Specnaz when you litteraly translate it from cyrillic? I mean, when you say spetsnaz it kind of looks like you're simply naming it the phonetic way, kind of like saying 'joo es spetsul forsez'... Anyway, thanks for all the information so far, it's really nice :)

[Lobo]

If I'm not wrong on the top of the old patch it's read "BRIGADA". Just as matter of curiosity. The same word exists in Spanish language.

[koster]

BRIGADA is Brigade in english.
On the patch it says 16th BRIGADE OF SPECIAL PURPOSE, 16 OBr SpN means the same thing.

[koster]

Just something slightly relevant; isn't it supposed to be written Specnaz when you litteraly translate it from cyrillic? I mean, when you say spetsnaz it kind of looks like you're simply naming it the phonetic way, kind of like saying 'joo es spetsul forsez'... Anyway, thanks for all the information so far, it's really nice :)
most russians write SpetsNaz, because TS sounds almost the same as ц when you read it.

~~
16 OBr SpN, did you ever get my PMs ?
'cause It looks like I'm not able to reseive PMs.

[16 OBr SpN]

OK, let's continue... :)

Chechen tactics (continued):

One of the main problems of chechnya is its very diverse terrain: plains, forests, and mountains in a small pack. For us it meant constantly changing our tactics in order to match our needs in a particular theater.

One of the biggest problems that we had, was a poor knowledge of terrain. This weakness was used by the chechens to their advantage. There were several operations which were undertaken durig early spring in order to push out the terrorist groups from the maountains after a heavy winter, into the plains were they would be quickly destroyed by massive firepower. But those missions did not succeed, bevause the commanders of the units were not fully aware of all escape routes. As a result, we only got 5 heavily wounded and hungry chechens, while the rest quitely took off, following a tip from the local informant.
As a result of those failures, much of our resources was focused on learning the terrain, without any help from the locals.

Each spetsnaz unit has its own "square" of operations of X km. by X km. Depending on the terrain, our mission types vary. Forests, and mountains: recon; ambushes; raids; kidnapping of enemy soldiers. While units operating on the plains, and cities, usually work against those who tried to blend with the civilians. Their operations are: "clean-ups"; blocking of specific points; ambushes; and assassinations.

One of the toughest areas of operations is forests. In case of Chechnya it's especially Samashki forest. Forest, due to its nature requires more: concealment; firepower; coordination, and of course, a little different tactics.
Usually, firefights in the forests are made on 150-200 meter distance, among dense trees; that's why preference was given to more powerful rounds of ammunition, heavy machineguns; RPO-Z; along with mortars and AGS grenade launchers.
Firefight in the forrest requires massive coordinated firepower to be focused on one direction; and simultaneous encirclement of enemy group from its flanks. The key is: DO NOT let the enemy to maneuver. Keep him down; encircle; and destroy. During any ambush, the attacking group has to remember: there is always a possibility of an enemy actually encircling you, if some protective measures are not taken. Always, keep a small group to cover your flanks, and rears.

When they get into ambush, chechens always try to get out of line of fire by any means. Mostly, they try to break through our positions by attacking the STRONGEST positions. Chechens focus their fire on a strong part of our "chain" in order to break it, and retreat. That's why all parts of the chain should be somewhat evenly armed, and ready to cover each other.

Powerful AP mines along with ****y traps are very effective, if set up in possible directions of enemy movement and retreat. On the one hand we had a massive "fire bag", and on the other, we had areas literally packed with explosives. It is very effective to put mines on the trees.

Usually, the first 30 seconds is the most vital part of an ambush. During this time, the attackers have the element of surprise and the initiative. After that period, the enemy is usually able to evaluate his situation and take necessary steps. Sometimes, we had to lay for 2-3 days, not moving, not saying a single word, waiting for those 30 seconds where we could quickly destroy the enemy; and move out as quickly as possible.
In the battlefield, the time feels totally differently.

To be continued...

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[koster]

I have a question, did you ever get to use РШГ-1, РШГ-2 ?
I hear they are pretty good, like a "Шмель" in the size of an RPG-26/27.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Wow thanks OBr for the insight on the tactics. woot

[16 OBr SpN]

I have a question, did you ever get to use РШГ-1, РШГ-2 ?
I hear they are pretty good, like a "Шмель" in the size of an RPG-26/27.

We didn't have them during my service. Only RPO; and TBG grenades on RPG-7's.
I heard that they are available, but in very limited quantities yet. Seen couple of them in Shatoy video footage. I personally, haven't used them, but heard these are very nice! ;)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[koster]

I see :)
I think I have a photo where one of those explodes :D
http://community.webshots.com/s/image2/5/80/49/106058049rlccBb_ph.jpg
DL: http://community.webshots.com/s/image2/5/80/49/106058049rlccBb_ph.jpg

[Javehn]

I am waiting for part 3 ... :D

[oldsoak]

Quite suprised at the distances involved in fighting in the forest - 150-200m ? I was expecting 50m or less. Maybe the woodland is less dense out there.

[Kingpin]

Quite suprised at the distances involved in fighting in the forest - 150-200m ? I was expecting 50m or less. Maybe the woodland is less dense out there.

Hehe.
1. Depends from time of year (winter/summer)
2. Imagine 20-30 men standing against other 20-30 men and firing rifles and MGs and RPGs from 50 meters on each other. I suppose there will be no survivors after that :) Yes it is difficult to fight in dense forest at distance 100 meters and more but it is required for your survival :)

[16 OBr SpN]

Quite suprised at the distances involved in fighting in the forest - 150-200m ? I was expecting 50m or less. Maybe the woodland is less dense out there.

You see, when an enemy is that close, it is known as "hugging". At that distance in that environment, all the firepower is useless, and it's just a matter of time before hand-to-hand fight starts. Besides, when you are that close to an enemy you lose a ground for maneuver, and give him more chances to break through your lines, or maybe even encircle you. Keep in mind the number of your people involved (16-32 people), against possibly a much bigger enemy unit.
What would be chechens' possible choices? First, break a strongest firing point, then isolate the others from their flanks. That's it. The "chain" is gone, and basically the unit is dead.

That's why we engaged the enemy at distances more than 100 meters. Remember, we are talking about an ambush, not a "regular" firefight.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Javehn]

It doesn't sounds strange.. Russian forests have long trees , and the branches of trees starting at high altittude ,more or less,while the trees themselfes aren't all "dense" together . All that let the bullets fly (again , more or less , ofcorse they getting stoped by trees ) freely . If you have better firepower then the enemy , you will use that fact . Hell , once we managed to shoot someone from 1500 metters with Mag, from first birst ... That's proffesionalism !

[Kingpin]

My congratulations to our men

В Чечне разгромлен крупный отряд боевиков, в который входили граждане Турции, Алжира и Германии. Об этом сообщает радиостанция «Эхо Москвы».
Операция проводилась накануне силами спецназа Главного разведывательного управления Минобороны (ГРУ) в 3 км восточнее Сержень-Юрта. Там была обнаружена крупная база боевиков, оборудованная по всем законам военного искусства. На базе находились схроны с оружием и подземные коммуникации. Кроме того, она была заминирована системой минного заграждения.

По словам помощника президента Сергея Ястржембского, в результате скоротечного боя были убиты 17 боевиков. При этом он отметил, что большинство из них были одеты в форму военнослужащих российской армии.

Как сообщил С.Ястржембский, Россия уже проинформировала о случившемся спецслужбы государств, чьими гражданами являлись уничтоженные боевики.

[16 OBr SpN]

My congratulations to our men

В Чечне разгромлен крупный отряд боевиков, в который входили граждане Турции, Алжира и Германии. Об этом сообщает радиостанция «Эхо Москвы».
Операция проводилась накануне силами спецназа Главного разведывательного управления Минобороны (ГРУ) в 3 км восточнее Сержень-Юрта. Там была обнаружена крупная база боевиков, оборудованная по всем законам военного искусства. На базе находились схроны с оружием и подземные коммуникации. Кроме того, она была заминирована системой минного заграждения.

По словам помощника президента Сергея Ястржембского, в результате скоротечного боя были убиты 17 боевиков. При этом он отметил, что большинство из них были одеты в форму военнослужащих российской армии.

Как сообщил С.Ястржембский, Россия уже проинформировала о случившемся спецслужбы государств, чьими гражданами являлись уничтоженные боевики.

I'll translate it to our friends:

The big group of chechen terrorists has been destroyed in Chechnya.
Among the dead are citizens of Algeria, Germany and Turkey.

The operation was performed by Spetsnaz GRU, 3 km. away from the village of Serjen-Yurt. The base was equipped like a full-scale military base, with weapons caches, and underground communications. The perimeter of the base was thoroughly mined.

During the quick firefight, 17 terrorists were eliminated. It is reported that most of them were dressed up in Russian uniform.

Russian authorities have informed the governments of the countries those terrorists were from.

Good job! :D

Молодцы ребята, хорошо друт чехам жопы! :D

[oldsoak]

I was suprised because in some of the woodland I've been in, its difficult to see in a straight line more than 50m in any direction so being able to see someone who has good camouflage discipline at 100m would be almost impossible. I just assumed Russian/Chechnyan forests would be as dense. Point taken about it depends on the time of year. Oh well, l learnt something new.
rgds
ps - a good Christmas/Hanukkah to all.

[ariweiner]

From the same news article as the above Spetsnaz raid:

Russian troops continue to suffer daily casualties in the war-ravaged separatist region of Chechnya. Seven soldiers were killed and at least 17 wounded in rebel attacks over the past day, an official in the pro-Moscow Chechen administration said Wednesday on condition of anonymity. - Source (http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/ap/ap_story.html/Intl/AP.V1027.AP-Russia-Chechnya.html)

[Johnnyringo]

I can understand using higher powered MG's and rifle grenades in the woodland enviro... but what type of mortar system were you employing. At 200 meters I could only envision it in a direct fire role, unless you had really adept FDC.

[16 OBr SpN]

I can understand using higher powered MG's and rifle grenades in the woodland enviro... but what type of mortar system were you employing. At 200 meters I could only envision it in a direct fire role, unless you had really adept FDC.

There are different scenarios for each operation.
We could position a mortar unit on our rears with exact position in which the enemy will be engaged. Once the firefight starts, we give a radio command to them to start pounding enemy positions.
Troops would be correcting the mortar fire as necessary.

Like I said, each mission is different, and requires different approaches. But our important goal is to suppress the enemy with massive fire, and make him lose the ground for maneuver.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Groove]

I dont understand why you dont "close" the Chechen Boarders really tight. I mean there are enough soldiers down there to build a hermetic border ?

Greetings

Groove

[16 OBr SpN]

I dont understand why you dont "close" the Chechen Boarders really tight. I mean there are enough soldiers down there to build a hermetic border ?

Greetings

Groove

Chechnya has a very hard border to control. Mountains are pain in the ass!
Patrolling that vastly mountainous region requires lots of resources. I remember, even during times of USSR-Afghan war, it was impossible for us to control the whole border, especially with Pakistan. Considering current economic situation of Russia, this goal became even harder.

The options that we can afford are being used to their full extent. Mobile troops are operating on a full scale, just like back in Afghanistan. But unlike Afghanistan, were we mostly hunted caravans; Chechnya requires even more mobile units in order to engage smaller guerilla groups. Chechens usually try to shift our focus from one direction to other. They usually send a small, and healthier group, which will start attacking an outpost on a certain distance from the main path, on which the main group will move.

Guerillas mostly operate on the Georgian border, because it's their path to safe spot (Pankisi gorge) with hospitals, and rest areas.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Groove]

I understand and know the topography down there. But maybe u should try to establish some kind of some hundrets meters big minefield ring on the south side of chechnya - not on the mountains but before them.

But as i already mentioned, i think the ppl which are getting rich by the war on the russian side wouldnt allow you to make such plans.

Greetings

Groove

[16 OBr SpN]

I understand and know the topography down there. But maybe u should try to establish some kind of some hundrets meters big minefield ring on the south side of chechnya - not on the mountains but before them.

But as i already mentioned, i think the ppl which are getting rich by the war on the russian side wouldnt allow you to make such plans.

Greetings

Groove

Unfortunately, I have to admit that if it wasn't for politicians, and constant whining about "human rights", we would have solved the issue of chechnya for good. Plus, foreign support of chechens by some of our western "friends" also complicates matters for us.

And of course the money issue...

There is an old saying in Russian "For some - it's war; for some - it's dear mother"

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Groove]

Well about the human rights. Do you mean to kill em all ? Women and children too ? This wouldnt be good PR for russia....

[16 OBr SpN]

Well about the human rights. Do you mean to kill em all ? Women and children too ? This wouldnt be good PR for russia....

I don't mean kill them all.
What I mean is whenever there is a clean-up operation in a certain village, you all of a sudden hear a lot of bull**** from "human rights" activists. They talk about stuff they have no idea of.

When for example, Red Cross staff gets attacked by chechens, they quickly call for our guys. As a thank-you, later you read stuff like "chechen genocide", "human rights abuses" and other bull**** from them.
Somehow, I don't hear those assholes whining about chechen scumbags torturing Russian POWs; local collaborators.
Long live double standards! :(

I know of many cases when those scumbags were gladly treating chechen terrorists, while saying no to our soldiers who asked for assistance when one guy was severely wounded.

If we wanted to do some genocide, the chechnya issue would be solved in a matter of several weeks. General Ermolov, and Stalin left us a nice recipe ;)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Saranof]

Well about the human rights. Do you mean to kill em all ? Women and children too ? This wouldnt be good PR for russia....

I don't mean kill them all.
What I mean is whenever there is a clean-up operation in a certain village, you all of a sudden hear a lot of bull**** from "human rights" activists. They talk about stuff they have no idea of.

When for example, Red Cross staff gets attacked by chechens, they quickly call for our guys. As a thank-you, later you read stuff like "chechen genocide", "human rights abuses" and other bull**** from them.
Somehow, I don't hear those assholes whining about chechen scumbags torturing Russian POWs; local collaborators.
Long live double standards! :(

I know of many cases when those scumbags were gladly treating chechen terrorists, while saying no to our soldiers who asked for assistance when one guy was severely wounded.

If we wanted to do some genocide, the chechnya issue would be solved in a matter of several weeks. General Ermolov, and Stalin left us a nice recipe ;)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN


The reason they don't "whine" about the chechens commiting crimes is because they expect them to do so. The russians however, are part of a real army, professional and on a payroll. Therefor, they should not under any circumstances commit crimes.
Terrorist groups (and freedom fighters) often use these, and if the RedCross put more pressure on them to stop, nothing would happen.

They get attacked and call for you?
Of course they do!
And as thanks they accuse some of your units for crimes?
What, so you mean that if I help you out when you get robbed, it means that you can't do anything if I see you robbing a store?


Since cleanup operations seem to mostley involve "go in, kill everyone" (this confirmed by Red Cross, OSSE, SIBA, go ahead and call them liars, I belive them) it's no wonder that chechans that didn't fight against you before start when this happens to thier children!

If you defend wiping out an entire people, you defend the likes of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot. Do you want that?

[Durandal]

Unfortunately, I have to admit that if it wasn't for politicians, and constant whining about "human rights", we would have solved the issue of chechnya for good.

By using free flight ballistic MISSLES? Those damn human rights laws...protecting innocent people...how senseless...

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Well the conflict in Chechnya is pretty brutal, either way both side's will always claim the others commiting some sort of human rights abuse's.

[Durandal]

Well the conflict in Chechnya is pretty brutal, either way both side's will always claim the others commiting some sort of human rights abuse's.

Oh, I won't argue that at all, I think it safe to say that we have seen attrocities committed by both sides. I also certainly have no love for Muslim seperatist fighters since a bunch of them are pretty closely linked with AQ and the absolutey filthy propoganda videos they have been releasing on the net of horrible executiuons of Russian soldiers (made the mistake of watching one of those and could not sleep for a couple nights).

But what about the rest of the population? Do you burn a village down if a mine blew a BTR and a couple trucks or do you find the person(s) responsible? I know the United States certainly did that in Vietnam and Laos, but could you imagine the world's out cry and general uprisings of the local population if we used that tactic in Iraq...I shudder to think.

Having a strong will to fight and using a heavy hand in actions against known enemies is one thing, but indescrimate torching of villages and launching a theater type ballistic missles such as the "Tochka" and "Tochka-U" are not a solution to a problem. If anything, it causes more...

[ST4]

(made the mistake of watching one of those and could not sleep for a couple nights)

I saw one of those about a month ago... horrific! :(

I dont dare ask which one you saw.

[RomanS]

Well,

The Russians commiting atrocities???? I would love to see at least one video of that. I know for sure that our guys had camcorders when we were there, hell I've seen and have most of the Perm Omon tours on tapes, including "zachistki" cleansing operations in Vedeno, and Shali.

So if anyone has those, please, I would love to know if they exist at least.
It seems to me, that all the nasty killings are on the Chechen side, they don't affraid to tape it either!

[Groove]

Its like on almost every war. When you cant catch the enemy but he killed some of your men you need revenge....

Thats why all the civilians dies in attrocities. Sad but true :(

Groove

[Pojo]

All the chechen hugging peeps need to grow up and go see the real world. Most chechens dont qualify as "people" period. Yeah go ahead and flame with your hippy **** it wont do you much good when they start cutting your heart out with a spoon.

[mustamato]

Whoaa. It took some time to read thru almost everything on this thread. But it was worth it, thanks to everyone that has learnt me a lots of new things. :hug:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/Vladimir.jpg

What is the name of this type of helmet?
______________________________________________

By the way Kavkaz has a good american documentary in six parts, called "Greetings from Grozny", and also a CNN-documentary called "Deadlock: "Russias forgotten war". They are worth watching and since they have been aired on american TV and everything they are not sick **** like rest of the crap on Kavkaz.

http://www.kavkazcenter.net/eng/video/

[Dmitri]

Thats why all the civilians dies in attrocities. Sad but true Listen, how do you know that ****? Civilians ALWAYS suffer when a war goes on. Don't you remember all those accusations in Iraq for US? I'll let you guys on a secret: I was talking to some 3rd ID scout guys that just came back from Iraq. I couldn't believe this **** either, good thing no one had it on tape. They were in the first wave sweeping through Baghdad, does anyone remember the statue of Saddam brought down? Well, they were the first to get there, its an island surrounded by the river with briges. When they got there, for some stupid reason they blew the bridge the went on. Then they called for Iraqies to come there and bring weapons and ****, well now they have all the other bridges full of cars and people. Then they decided they had to leave, but they were stuck. Do you know what they did??????!!!!!!! They unloaded HE rounds from Bradley on one of the bridges, blew everything up and drove on top of everything!! You will also never hear about US troops shooting TOWs in the building, Abrams tanks driving through them, troops going in houses to get food because they were hungry.....trust me, it was a MESS. The only thing that saved them was the fact that it was so early in assaul, reporters weren't there. Also, when Iraqies complained about civilian casualties and brutality, no one believed them... :|

[Shake n Bake]

I don't care about the Russians and I certainly as hell couldn't give two ****s about the plight of the chechens

Russians commiting atrocities in Chechnya?? If thats what they gotta do, thats what they got to do... Far be it from me to judge them.

[Pojo]

I think thats why its called a war, deal with it and get used to it.


:bash:

[GazB]

"The russians however, are part of a real army, professional and on a payroll. Therefor, they should not under any circumstances commit crimes."

Most of the Western world considers the Russians to be the bad guys still... why should they give a Fk what amnesty international or the Red Cross says? The US ignores such agencies when it suits them. Britain will listen to no one else in regard to Northern Ireland, the Israelis will listen to no one else in regard to the Palestinians. They have already tried peace and it didn't work.

"Since cleanup operations seem to mostley involve "go in, kill everyone" (this confirmed by Red Cross, OSSE, SIBA, go ahead and call them liars, I belive them) it's no wonder that chechans that didn't fight against you before start when this happens to thier children!"

I guess they must have a lot of photos and films of small children dead then... how many vilages have you been in where there are no children?

You'd think the chechens would be showing films of burned down villages and dead kids instead of them butchering Russian soldiers.

"If you defend wiping out an entire people, you defend the likes of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot. Do you want that?"

Most westerners think of Russia as communist still and associate communism with Stalin so who cares? The real concern is to get the job done, not what the west thinks.

"By using free flight ballistic MISSLES? Those damn human rights laws...protecting innocent people...how senseless..."

The Tochka-U has a CEP lower than a Tomahawk... it is about 10m.

What the hell does human rights have to do with anything? Go to Guantanamo... if these Chechen rebels are not Russians then they have no rights under the Russian law... which currently operates in Chechnia. They are not a legal military force, they have signed no conventions of war and should not get POW status. How many SUSPECTED VC accidently fell out of choppers in Vietnam or for that matter poor farmers in Honduras?

"launching a theater type ballistic missles such as the "Tochka" and "Tochka-U" are not a solution to a problem. If anything, it causes more..."

As I mentioned above the Tochka is designed to take out point targets with a conventional warhead (as opposed to Scud which was designed to use a nuclear warhead to make up for no guidance system). Its CEP is comparable to LGBs for known fixed targets.

[SFontaine]

I also certainly have no love for Muslim seperatist fighters since a bunch of them are pretty closely linked with AQ and the absolutey filthy propoganda videos they have been releasing on the net of horrible executiuons of Russian soldiers (made the mistake of watching one of those and could not sleep for a couple nights).


I think I know the one you're talking about. It's pretty goddamn f*cking disgusting the way these animals brutally murdered that Russian (And I only saw about 3 seconds before I turned it off in disgust). Gonna be hard to sleep tonight, yeah.

[16 OBr SpN]

Since cleanup operations seem to mostley involve "go in, kill everyone" (this confirmed by Red Cross, OSSE, SIBA, go ahead and call them liars, I belive them) it's no wonder that chechans that didn't fight against you before start when this happens to thier children!

Well, first of all a clean-up operation is NOT even close to what you've described. To put it simple: 1) Block the village. 2) Check documents of people 3) Search houses 4) Leave

If a guy doesn't have a document, and/or has bruises on his shoulder, and/or seems like recently shaved a beard - we take him in for further questionning.
Other cases are when the guy is spotted attacking our soldiers, or setting up a roadside bomb, or just based on a tip from informants.

This is a typical anti-guerilla measurement.
Do you have any better approaches? If yes, I would appreciate you sharing it with us. ;)

Believe me, when you kill a chechen under questionnable circumstances, the commanders will be on your ass making you write the explanation letters, then it's military attorney, then it's court hearings. It's just not worth it. :)



If you defend wiping out an entire people, you defend the likes of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot. Do you want that

When did I say that?

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[wreck]

Hmm. Some time ago I read a book about the second chechen war and there was some quite disturbing and somewhat sad things mentioned about cleaning, raping and kidnapping done by RF armed forces. E.G. during a cleaning operation a member of a chechen family is kidnapped and held in a pit until her family pays the ransom to the soldiers (officers) who keep her in captivity or then they will kill the prisoner and throw away the body.

Now I don't want to believe that the best soldiers of the RF army are doing these kind of savage acts, but how in the hell can this be tolerated by the superiors? I can truly´understand the killing and even wiping out all the so called rebels and other criminals calling themself rebels but the normal life in Checnya must be quiet crappy homeland, first in come the 'patriotic rebels' and use your house, wife, daughter, food, anything and if you're lucky they'll let you live. The next day (or make it night) in come the RF troops, take your daughter and demand ransom for her, dead or alive.

Just damn confused how in the hell can people live in there? Please don't get me wrong, I think Russia is doing good job in wiping out the rebels but is there anyone who is standing on the side of oridinary chechen people?

[Groove]

I think thats why its called a war, deal with it and get used to it.

Oh so imagine its war and some soldiers rape your sister in front of you and kill her and your mom after the "funny part" ? And you would sit there and think "Damn its war, i must get used to it ?"

Stop telling BS pls !

Thx

Groove

[Dmitri]

Oh so imagine its war and some soldiers rape your sister in front of you and kill her and your mom after the "funny part" ? And you would sit there and think "Damn its war, i must get used to it ?"
Where do you get this **** from? Your imagination? This is stupid, you are throwing words around like you know something. If "you" are a terrorist, and your mom was trying to shoot me with the gun, both would be dead, and I don't know where you get raping from.

[Herrmannek]

Oh so imagine its war and some soldiers rape your sister in front of you and kill her and your mom after the "funny part" ? And you would sit there and think "Damn its war, i must get used to it ?"
Where do you get this **** from? Your imagination? This is stupid, you are throwing words around like you know something. If "you" are a terrorist, and your mom was trying to shoot me with the gun, both would be dead, and I don't know where you get raping from.

From your army last visit in Poland :). Raping, Looting, Violence are things russian army is fame from. My grandma in WWII was pharmacist in polish-russian M.A.S.H so she knows ****. If not her sidearm nagant who knows if I would be here to post that post :).

[Groove]

Where do you get this **** from? Your imagination? This is stupid, you are throwing words around like you know something. If "you" are a terrorist, and your mom was trying to shoot me with the gun, both would be dead, and I don't know where you get raping from.

No i got such things told by old ppl in poland under the Nazi Occupation. I think our friends from russland can tell such ww2 stories too. I know even worses things the Nazis did in Poland, such as smashing babies on walls holding them on their feet in front of the mothers.


So dont tell BS about my imagination okay ?

Groove

[16 OBr SpN]

Like I said, you guys seem to fall victims of Chechen propaganda. All those OSCE, Red Cross reports are totally pro-chechen reports.
Well, considering the role of some of our western "friends" in chechnya, it's all very predictable.

Herrmanek: Unless you have something to say about the subject, please don't bother sticking Poland into this thread. I don't see "Poland" in the name of thread.

I can tell you why westerners whine so much about cleaning operations ("zachistka"). It's because the measure is actually very effective. On the one hand you have our groups operating in mountains and forests; and blocking, and cleaning up of cities on the other hand. You basically force chechens to constantly move, taking away their maneuver, and forcing them to quickly consume their resources. Besides, constant moving and evasive actions really affect the morale of terrorists.

During my two trips to Chechnya in 2nd Campaign I could hear many times when chechens were talking to each other on the radio, saying "Make sure there is no zachistka".
For example, a small group stopped in a small town in Bachi-Yurt. One commander was asking another to attack our rears away from the city in order to shift our attention. Regular infantry was slowly blocking out the town, while storm groups were getting ready. Chechen commander was saying, "Whatever you do - make sure there is no zachistka".
From the results we've seen, it's a very effective tactic.

I see that Americans are using similar tactics in Iraq.

I'll say again - This is no longer an all out war with rockets and bombs falling on cities. Just low intensity guerilla conflict. Outcome of killing a civilian in today's chechnya is a true pain in the ass. Commanders, and attorneys will constantly be on your ass. Reports, letters, investigations, etc.
Believe me when I say that.
Ask any guy who served in Chechnya, he will tell you the same thing.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Herrmannek]

Herrmanek: Unless you have something to say about the subject, please don't bother sticking Poland into this thread. I don't see "Poland" in the name of thread.

Post was about russian soldiers :) not about Poland..But if you want to be on-topic...

You say it is all chechen propaganda with all those russian atrocities but lets face the facts:

As you stated russian forces core are young conscripts, often with criminal past, in main part drug and/or alcochol adicts/abusers, ussually with primary or occupation education only, they are badly payed, sometimes hungry and badly equiped. There is violence between soldiers. There is no strict ROE, is corruption and other sociall deaseses...And you state that mighty Russian army don't loot, rape and make other worse things in chechenya...man wake up, people do worse things in peace time, there is war, russian army makes negative selection as it takes lower layers of society, concentrate them in one place, where is no working laws , discipline is weak, and no one punish them for crimes commited...

[Dmitri]

So dont tell BS about my imagination okay ?
No, not ok. It is not very brilliant of you to apply some WW2 stories you heard to Chechen conflict. I believe it is your imagination pal, and it is pretty disturbed

man wake up, people do worse things in peace time, there is war, russian army makes negative selection as it takes lower layers of society, concentrate them in one place, where is no working laws , discipline is weak, and no one punish them for crimes commited...
Please don't talk about something you don't really know. First off, there are pretty good bit of contracted soldiers in Russia, they started back in 1996-97. Second, there were plenty stories on the news about soldiers being punished if the committed anything illegal, and they get treated just like criminals. Stuff like that happens in every army, read my post about US before.

[Saranof]

"The russians however, are part of a real army, professional and on a payroll. Therefor, they should not under any circumstances commit crimes."

Most of the Western world considers the Russians to be the bad guys still... why should they give a Fk what amnesty international or the Red Cross says? The US ignores such agencies when it suits them. Britain will listen to no one else in regard to Northern Ireland, the Israelis will listen to no one else in regard to the Palestinians. They have already tried peace and it didn't work.

So what you mean is that it's fine for the russians to do what they want? Comparing Chechnya to Northen Ireland is a bit out of place. If the british were to wipe out a village in NI, there would be an international outcry. Not that it hasn't happend (Bloody Sunday= "slaughter" =international outcry)

"Since cleanup operations seem to mostley involve "go in, kill everyone" (this confirmed by Red Cross, OSSE, SIBA, go ahead and call them liars, I belive them) it's no wonder that chechans that didn't fight against you before start when this happens to thier children!"

I guess they must have a lot of photos and films of small children dead then... how many vilages have you been in where there are no children?

You'd think the chechens would be showing films of burned down villages and dead kids instead of them butchering Russian soldiers.

Oh they have.
The problem is they do have films of bruned down villages. But since we don't belive them, they find it more rewarding in propaganda means to kill russians on video.

"If you defend wiping out an entire people, you defend the likes of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot. Do you want that?"

Most westerners think of Russia as communist still and associate communism with Stalin so who cares? The real concern is to get the job done, not what the west thinks.


Yes, which proves how competent most westerners are... :roll:
You mean that "getting the job done" is killing more chechnyans?

[Saranof]

[quote]If you defend wiping out an entire people, you defend the likes of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot. Do you want that

When did I say that?

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

I recall you stating that every chechnyan should be whiped out. Maybe it was a joke. It wasn't funny.

[Dmitri]

If you defend wiping out an entire people, you defend the likes of Stalin, Hitler,
I didn't know Hitler was Russian

I recall you stating that every chechnyan should be whiped out. Why don't you find it?

[Vance]

If you defend wiping out an entire people, you defend the likes of Stalin, Hitler,
I didn't know Hitler was Russian

He's saying they are both dictators who wiped out millions.

[Dmitri]

That was my bad, I didn't read the sentence correctly :oops:

[16 OBr SpN]

[quote]If you defend wiping out an entire people, you defend the likes of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot. Do you want that

When did I say that?

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

I recall you stating that every chechnyan should be whiped out. Maybe it was a joke. It wasn't funny.

I never said that. Believe me, I'm far from maximalistic views, besides I'm too old for that kinds of statements ;)

I remember saying that the name "Chechnya" should seize to exist on a map. Meaning it should be geographically divided between other regions of Russia.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Herrmannek]

man wake up, people do worse things in peace time, there is war, russian army makes negative selection as it takes lower layers of society, concentrate them in one place, where is no working laws , discipline is weak, and no one punish them for crimes commited...
Please don't talk about something you don't really know. First off, there are pretty good bit of contracted soldiers in Russia, they started back in 1996-97. Second, there were plenty stories on the news about soldiers being punished if the committed anything illegal, and they get treated just like criminals. Stuff like that happens in every army, read my post about US before.

I'm not atacking you or your country, Just stating that chechenyan war and both sides have good oportunities to commit crimes. Ok I can't prove what I said(you can't probably too :) ), but many ours not chechenyan reporters been there, our humanitarian organisations countinously helps chechens in camps so whe have rather not biased with propaganda(russian or chechen) sources of knowledge about the conflict...

Tell me if contract soldiers are fully profesionall soldiers or just payed volountires without better trainig than normall conscripts, or maybe they are normal conscripts with signed contracts on second round in chechenya if cantract aren't fully professional(without proper selection, training) it doesn't change much in things I wrote before about conscripts maybe excluding penssions. What percent of chechenyan soldiers contract are? Are they in separate units or are mixed with conscripts?

About punished soldiers, When you commit crime you ussualy do in way no-one survive to tell the story :). So if there is many trailas there must be many more uncovered crimes esspecialy there is no normall police and investigations and some sort of degrengolada...

I don't say things aren't going better now but we treat chechen war in this topic as a whole thing so telling something isn't going now isn't agains saying that something was before.

PS.. couldn't find your post about US, tell me page if you remember :)

[GazB]

"Please don't get me wrong, I think Russia is doing good job in wiping out the rebels but is there anyone who is standing on the side of oridinary chechen people?"

The fact that it is the Russians and the Chechens fighting Chechens suggests that perhaps the Russians are not just there to rob and steal and rape.

"From your army last visit in Poland . Raping, Looting, Violence are things russian army is fame from. My grandma in WWII was pharmacist in polish-russian M.A.S.H so she knows ****. If not her sidearm nagant who knows if I would be here to post that post"

And Polish forces are completely clean and never broke a single rule during the whole war? (BTW saying someone "knows ****" in English usually means they know little or nothing). The Germans treated the russians like cattle... all the people... young and old from villages captured were taken to MASH units and drained of blood for german soldiers. The remains were placed in pits... whether they were dead or not.

"russian army makes negative selection as it takes lower layers of society, concentrate them in one place, where is no working laws , discipline is weak, and no one punish them for crimes commited"

Yes, of course, that is correct. Conscription involved officers trolling juvenile delinquent halls and junior jails for soldiers. There is no discipline training at all... they are just given weapons and sent out to kill. Except most of the forces are interior ministry forces... the MVD... like military police or national guard. Sure a few will commit crimes... hell how many Japanese girls get raped by American soldiers every year... and that is during peace time with little stress or danger.

They are certainly not saints, but to suggest they are all animals is offensive.

"You mean that "getting the job done" is killing more chechnyans?"

The a$$holes that use the koran to justify what they do are the ones that need to be sent to Allah.

"I didn't know Hitler was Russian "

Neither was Stalin.

'He's saying they are both dictators who wiped out millions."

Yes, one was Austrian and the other from Georgia.

"I'm not atacking you or your country,"

Actually you are showing ignorance. If I stated that all Americans acted the same they did a while back... there are photos in the Smithsonian showing white folk with kids and women having picnics and looking at the dismembered bodies of recently executed black people in scenes that are most strange, should I describe modern Americans to be of the same nature? One presumes that the photos are displayed not to interest or be popular as a reflection of the way things are now, but as a stark reminder of what they once were and hopefully should never be again. It is shameful that the photos represent what the US once was, but it to their credit that they do not hide it and recognise it for what it was. Wrong.

If you would like to describe Russians as being like those who lived under Stalin, and lived through WWII and tremendously difficult times then go ahead. Be ignorant. You are not alone, there is a lot of ignorance out there. It is rather amusing that a democratic Russia is treated worse economically than communist China by the US, but then 1.5 billion potential coke drinkers and blue jeans wearers is far more important that the fight between communism and democracy... always was.

[Kingpin]

GazB
Interesting time of posting. Isn't deep night now in New Zealand? :) BTW did you ever been in Russia?

[Herrmannek]

"From your army last visit in Poland . Raping, Looting, Violence are things russian army is fame from. My grandma in WWII was pharmacist in polish-russian M.A.S.H so she knows ****. If not her sidearm nagant who knows if I would be here to post that post"

And Polish forces are completely clean and never broke a single rule during the whole war? (BTW saying someone "knows ****" in English usually means they know little or nothing(know that my mistake :) ). The Germans treated the russians like cattle... all the people... young and old from villages captured were taken to MASH units and drained of blood for german soldiers. The remains were placed in pits... whether they were dead or not.


Don't compare to nazis compare to western alies...I think that they weren't looting\raping goods from French in level Russians were from Poles. If you want know about Polish soldiers ask French, Italians, Germans or Russians. Poles were more afraid Russians going to "liberate" them than Nazis murdering them...



"russian army makes negative selection as it takes lower layers of society, concentrate them in one place, where is no working laws , discipline is weak, and no one punish them for crimes commited"

Yes, of course, that is correct. Conscription involved officers trolling juvenile delinquent halls and junior jails for soldiers. There is no discipline training at all... they are just given weapons and sent out to kill. Except most of the forces are interior ministry forces... the MVD... like military police or national guard. Sure a few will commit crimes... hell how many Japanese girls get raped by American soldiers every year... and that is during peace time with little stress or danger.

They are certainly not saints, but to suggest they are all animals is offensive.


I didn't sugested that they are animals from definition, Put there in the same maner Germans, Poles or Americans and you'll get the same. Just wanted to say that for 50 years not many changed in that mater. Russians still make(maybe things are going beter now we will see) same mistakes :give gun send into battle,without proper trainig, supervision it is simple asking for toubles no more no less...

[Russian Texan]

Herrmannek, did you ever serve in the Russian military? From the statements that you make someone might get an impression that you have personal experience with the selection process, training and actual combat deployment.

Do you even know what is going on in Chechnya now? Do you know what type of units operate there? Do you know the difference between MVD and army? Do you know how many army troops are left there? Do you know how many soldiers and officers got prosecuted for war crimes and looting? Does the name col. Budanov tell you anything?
The truth is that you, like you have said yourself, "know ****"...
Oh, I have just got an idea: why don't you ask Mr. Kossek what he thinks about conflict in Chechnya.

One thing I know for sure - you perception of the events is molded by the media which concentrates on negative stuff because concept "bad Russians" sells rather well in the west. The thing is that it is extremely damaging to the countries relations. How do you think people in Russia feel about it? Is "international humanitarian outcry" going to make them pull out of Chechnya? Of course no but now they look at the westerners as someones who neither understand or cares to understand their problems and therefore west is not exactly a friend, especially given the fact that they would smile in our face, shake hands, sweet talk when they need something but will back stab/mock in press if the opportunity presents itself...

[Herrmannek]

Herrmannek, did you ever serve in the Russian military? From the statements that you make someone might get an impression that you have personal experience with the selection process, training and actual combat deployment.


Hey, I know you select only higly educated people, with absolutly clean criminal account, allergic to drugs and alcochol, with only passion is plaing chees & humanitarian aid... :)



Do you even know what is going on in Chechnya now? Do you know what type of units operate there? Do you know the difference between MVD and army? Do you know how many army troops are left there? Do you know how many soldiers and officers got prosecuted for war crimes and looting?

Humanitarian operation don't think so...MVD is Ministry of Internal Affairs some sort of FBI I think? And we are talking about whole war do you think there is realy big difference for Chechens or me or anybody else that crimes were commited 6 years ago or now...BTW give me numbers of prosecuted soldiers so I have not biased data in that mater :).




Does the name col. Budanov tell you anything?
The truth is that you, like you have said yourself, "know ****"...
Oh, I have just got an idea: why don't you ask Mr. Kossek what he thinks about conflict in Chechnya.


I think I heard of him, is it that guy who raped teen and has several trials after that? And live Mister Kossak he is traing Vitaz right now :)



One thing I know for sure - you perception of the events is molded by the media which concentrates on negative stuff because concept "bad Russians" sells rather well in the west. The thing is that it is extremely damaging to the countries relations. How do you think people in Russia feel about it? Is "international humanitarian outcry" going to make them pull out of Chechnya?


I don't care if its molded or not until they give as facts



Of course no but now they look at the westerners as someones who neither understand or cares to understand their problems and therefore west is not exactly a friend, especially given the fact that they would smile in our face, shake hands, sweet talk when they need something but will back stab/mock in press if the opportunity presents itself...

So get used to that it' is normal as rain and snow, and don't cry about your poor fate as you are only guilty for waht you 've got...

[Javehn]

Col. Budanov ? Isn't he was a commander of 160 tank battalion ? My friend talled me something about this story , i think . He was charged , for killing some inocent chechen civilian , and several more charges , during second chechen campain , no ? He killed in one night 2 chechen fighter , with one of his Co's with his bare hands ,and next day reported it to his brigade commander . He said to me , that this guy was one crazy bastard , and crazy with all it's meaning .

[anonymous individual]

Dear 16 OBr SpN

These questions are somewhat related to what you have mentioned previously. I apologize if the following questions have been asked or answered, as well as the wrongful accusations I might make mistakenly. There has been a prolonging period of time between when I read this thread and the numinous time coming up with questions. Almost fail to mention, I write with poor English.

I roughly believe you had stated that the Russian armed forces were remaking the same mistakes made in Afghanistan in the first Chechen War. Have the forces taken the necessary steps to reinvent their attitudes seriously? Is there any sign of improvement?

What would one regular officer in-charge might say to his or her troops before heading to Chechnya in the First and Second War? In addition to the question, is there any change in what to point out to troops between the two wars?

As a Recon. member of the Special Forces and as an advisor in the Second War, which war would you find yourself safer, in the Afghan, First or Second Chechen War? Can you justify why so?

Thank you for you time;
AI

[Dmitri]

Hey, I know you select only higly educated people, with absolutly clean criminal account, allergic to drugs and alcochol, with only passion is plaing chees & humanitarian aid...

no one needs your stupid sarcasm, just answer the questions directly

[Herrmannek]

Hey, I know you select only higly educated people, with absolutly clean criminal account, allergic to drugs and alcochol, with only passion is plaing chees & humanitarian aid...

no one needs your stupid sarcasm, just answer the questions directly

We are talking about conscript selection, it probably looks similiar to its polish edition...
conscript is called for med commision with is making few shalow medical examinations, asking few simple questions and almost everyone probably gets A, and super healthy gets A+, sometimes if someone is realy sick(and have proving that documentation) gets B(temporal delay), or other qualfications(C not good for army in peace time or D not good even at war) . No one is checking psychological abilty to serve in army, nor checking criminal record, no checking drugs or alcochol addiction if not obviously seen. Then if army wants you it sends you ticket for train, and maybe at first month it try too send home people who are realy weak, allergic, can't wear army shooes, or with some other hidden defects...Educated and reach people ussualy are avoiding army by "hidding" on univeristets and other schools or by geting false medical papers, so army ussualy conscripts ppl with primary education or some poor ocupations schools(like barber,mechanic,electric etc), such guys are often "practical analfabets"(don't know english term for that but it's mean that guys can read but don't understand what are reading) so army gets worse ****...

[RomanS]

Excuse me,

BUT SINCE WHEN DID THE RUSSIAN conscripts participated in the clean up operations? As fas as my memory goes, only the MVD and parts of the Internal SPecial Units would operate for "passport" ID control in the area. Most of the time the "Prokuror" (Chief of Local Affairs) of the local town would be present during zachistkas. It's kind of hard to just roll in and kill everyone in the village. A lot of eyes are watching, and of course the camcorders are present everywhere.

Stop watching the CNN too much

[ariweiner]

The best efforts of Russian propagandists cannot hide the fact that some of the worst atrocities perpetrated in recent memory have been committed by Russian State-sponsored terrorists in Chechnya.

From Human Rights Watch:

Abuses by Russian Forces

For more than three years, Russian forces in Chechnya have committed extrajudicial executions, forced disappearances, arbitrary detention, torture, rape, and looting without being held accountable for their actions. These are violations of Russian’s obligations under the Article 3 Common to the four Geneva Conventions of 1949, which applies during internal armed conflicts. They have become a familiar, ugly part of daily life for people in Chechnya. Simply being a male of fighting age appears sufficient for grounds for detention, and those detained are invariably beaten and abused. Often they “disappear” or are later found executed. The November killing of Malika Umazheva, a former civil servant who spoke out fiercely against abuse, marked the clearest case to date in which Russian forces committed an extrajudicial execution for retribution.

Often Russian forces commit abuses during zachistki, or sweep operations, which involve the closing off of streets or even entire villages for house-to-house searches. Increasingly, Russian forces also appear to be carrying out more targeted night operations, in which masked troops raid particular homes, execute targeted individuals, or take them away, never to be seen again.

In the weeks following the Moscow hostage crisis, several sources reported a sharp rise in forced disappearances and extrajudicial executions in Chechnya.[64] Akhmad Kadyrov, the head of the pro-Moscow administration in Chechnya, complained publicly in mid-November 2002 about the rise in forced disappearances in the month following the hostage seizure, although he was careful not to directly blame Russian forces:

In the night, unknown armed individuals take people away and they go missing. According to our information, forty-eight people went missing in the past few days… No one is personally [held] responsible for systematic incidents when people go missing. Nine people have been taken away from my native village of Tsenteroi this week. And it is impossible to find out where they are now. I can’t look my fellow villagers in the eyes.[65]

Members of Russia’s parliament, the State Duma, were similarly outspoken during a special meeting on Chechnya in November 2002. Chechen representative Aslanbek Aslakhanov told the Duma session that he had “grounds to open a criminal case for abuse on every single mopping-up operation. The problem is that we allowed them [Russian forces] to work with the ‘bandits’ using ‘bandit’ methods.” Arkadii Baskaev, a Duma representative and former general who fought in the first Chechnya campaign was similarly damning, suggesting that Russian military abuses were forcing Chechen men into the ranks of Chechen rebel groups and that Russian soldiers “go there [to Chechnya], rob and come back…All the temporary troops must be withdrawn from there.” Taus Jabrailov, a deputy to Akhmed Kadyrov, stated that “kidnapping has become more frequent,” citing thirty-one disappearances over the previous ten days.[66] Even the deputy prosecutor general, Sergei Fridinsky, told the Duma that “no one would deny that human rights are being violated” in Chechnya, although he said that only “about fifteen” criminal investigations had been opened against Russian soldiers for abuses committed during mopping-up operations.[67]

Around the same time, a group of pro-Moscow Chechen officials wrote to President Vladimir V. Putin to urge him to intervene personally to put an end to rising abuses by Russian forces in Chechnya, saying:

In the days following the terrorist attack in Moscow, the activities of federal units in Chechnya have resulted in a drastic deterioration of the political situation in the republic. Military units use armored vehicles on a massive scale to abduct civilians in the dead of the night.[68]

The Murder of Malika Umazheva

The murder of Malika Umazheva was the first clearly retaliatory murder of its kind in Chechnya. Until September 2002, Umazheva served as head of administration for Alkhan-Kala, a village on the outskirts of Grozny that has been the scene of repeated, abusive sweep operations. Unlike many other village administrators, Umazheva had been very outspoken about abuses by Russian forces in her village, worked with human rights defenders to document abuses, and repeatedly confronted the Russian military about them.[69] This earned her the personal rancor of high-ranking Russian military officials, including General Anatoly Kvashnin, chief of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces, who accused her on state television of corruption.[70] On September 9, 2002, Umazheva was removed from her post by pro-Moscow officials on the pretext of “systematic nonperformance of duties.” Prior to her murder, she successfully challenged her dismissal in court. She was to have resumed her post on December 1.

On the night of November 29, the electricity was out in Alkhan-Kala, and the Umazheva family went to bed around 8:00 p.m. According to an eyewitness, soldiers in masks came to the Umazhev home and took Umazheva to the shed. Minutes later, shots rang out; Umazheva’s relatives then found her lying in a pool of blood. A person who was sleeping in Umazheva’s house when the Russian soldiers came in at midnight gave detailed testimony to Human Rights Watch about what happened:

[At around midnight] I heard someone yelling [in Russian], “On the floor, bastards! Don’t move!” . . . They surrounded the house in a few seconds. They were in each room and yelled, “Everyone down on the floor, beasts!” Their outfits alone, the masks and guns, could terrify anyone.

I saw five soldiers. They were in each room and threw things out of the wardrobes. They messed up the whole house. They knocked [name omitted] down on the floor and beat him.

[Umazheva] . . .asked, “Do you know whose home this is?” The soldiers replied, “Yes we do. What is your name.” “My name is Malika.” “So. We’ve come to the right place.” And they cursed.

They ordered her to go with them and open the shed [located in the yard.] They wanted to see if there were any Wahabbists in it. …

The soldiers also said at first that she would come back…. When I wanted to follow her, a soldier pushed me back with his gun, swearing. …

When we rushed out, barefoot, the soldiers were running out into the street. The one who was guarding us jumped out of the house immediately after the shots and we’ve never seen him again. They all ran to the highway. [Our neighbors] say that APCs and UAZ [jeeps] were waiting for them not far from our house. …

We ran towards the shed . . . [Umazheva] lay in a pool of blood just in front of the shed. She wanted to open the shed and they shot her in the back, three shots near the heart and a shot behind the ear. She was bleeding. Hope dies last, and I didn’t want to believe she was dead.[71]

Russian officials have attempted to blame Chechen fighters for Umazheva’s killing, but her family is convinced the murder was carried out by Russian forces. Several factors point to Russian involvement: her prominent role in documenting human rights abuses, the fact that the soldiers who came to her home spoke unaccented Russian, and the presence of Russian military vehicles in the vicinity of her house, to which the soldiers apparently fled after killing Umazheva.

Moreover, Umazheva’s previous encounters with federal forces indicated their suspicions about her. According to her relatives, a group of Russian soldiers came to Umazheva’s house on November 15, explaining that they had captured three “Wahhabis” (Chechen religious fighters) and ordering Umazheva to accompany them to identify the three men.[72] According to one eyewitness, Umazheva refused to go, accusing the soldiers of trying to endanger her life by branding her as an informer, saying: “If I go with you today, I’ll be dead tomorrow. They [Chechen fighters] will kill me and claim I was an informer.”[73] Her relatives surrounded her and began screaming and crying, and the Russian soldiers ultimately withdrew after searching the home for weapons. Umazheva mentioned to her relatives that she was concerned about the death threats she had been receiving, telling several relatives just a week before her death that “a general from Khankala was hunting her.”

The Memorial Human Rights Center also carried out a detailed investigation into the killing of Umazheva. Its investigation concluded: “it is obvious that Malika Umazheva was killed by those who repeatedly threatened her, i.e. representatives of the [Russian] Federal Forces. … The murder of Malika Umazheva has become the next in a series of acts of terror unleashed by the armed forces of the Russian Federation against the civilian population of the Chechen republic.”[74]

Other Extrajudicial Executions

* Five men from Chechen-Aul. On the night of October 22 to 23, 2002, Russian forces carried out a large-scale raid in Chechen-Aul, a village located some twenty kilometers south of Grozny, going from home to home looking for Chechen men and arresting a total of eight men. The masked Russian soldiers arrived in a Russian military URAL truck and UAZ jeeps. Two of the men were released after four days, having suffered beatings. The executed bodies of five of the detained men were discovered on November 9 in a field near the village of Vinogradnoe, bearing signs of abuse: Ali Magomadov, aged thirty-six; Umalt Abaev, aged twenty-four; Ismail Umarov, aged twenty-eight; Magomed Shakhgeriev, aged sixteen; and Rustam Zubkhajiev, aged twenty. A New York Times correspondent was present in Chechen-Aul when the bodies were brought home, and noted that “their faces were bruised and torn. Some necks bore traces of rope marks.”[75] A sixth person detained that night, twenty-eight-year-old Salakh Yunusov, has “disappeared."

[GazB]

"Poles were more afraid Russians going to "liberate" them than Nazis murdering them... "

It wasn't Russias' job to liberate the Pols. They were there to kill Germans. As far as most Soviets were concerned those people in occupied territory were at best tainted or at worst collaborators with a hated enemy.

"...I think that they weren't looting\raping goods from French in level Russians were from Poles."

Of course... all the gold in the French banks stayed where it was, all the supposed stolen art that ended up in nazi summer houses were all clever forgeries, and not a single rape was probably reported.

"Hey, I know you select only higly educated people, with absolutly clean criminal account, allergic to drugs and alcochol, with only passion is plaing chees & humanitarian aid..."

Or it could be a conscript system where everyone serves... the good and the bad...

"MVD is Ministry of Internal Affairs some sort of FBI I think?"

Rubbish. FBI investigates crimes... you don't need an AK-74M with a 40mm grenade launcher for that. The MVD is an internal army organisation that is used in Riots or civil disturbances or local states of emergency... much like the US national guard.

"From Human Rights Watch:"

Do they publish reports of abuses by the Chechen rebels? If only chechens have human rights why should russians care about respecting such things? Heck, if the 600 odd people in Guantanamo don't get rights why should anyone? A Chechen rebel doesn't consider their victims right to life why should anyone consider their rights to life... or those that support them.

[Herrmannek]

"Poles were more afraid Russians going to "liberate" them than Nazis murdering them... "

It wasn't Russias' job to liberate the Pols. They were there to kill Germans.


And here lies buried dog...Americans were aware that they are fighting not only to defeat Germans, but also to liberate occupied nations....



As far as most Soviets were concerned those people in occupied territory were at best tainted or at worst collaborators with a hated enemy.


Tainted? Tainted with what, did Americans or English soldiers and officers were concerned that French, Belgs, Italians were "tainted" or maybe russians soldiers weren't aware who is their foe because they were spended like the cattle across half of Eruope trampling everyting on their way?



"...I think that they weren't looting\raping goods from French in level Russians were from Poles."

Of course... all the gold in the French banks stayed where it was, all the supposed stolen art that ended up in nazi summer houses were all clever forgeries, and not a single rape was probably reported.


They were looting but they ussualy didn't left houses burn to ground, Rapers were sentenced, They weren't stealing peace of arts from museums in majesty of law as Russia did. Russia still have in their museums on expositions(ie: Hermitage) polish art stolen in WWII, but I've never heard that French are asking USA or GB to give back art stolen from Louvre.



"Hey, I know you select only higly educated people, with absolutly clean criminal account, allergic to drugs and alcochol, with only passion is plaing chees & humanitarian aid..."

Or it could be a conscript system where everyone serves... the good and the bad...


In theory yes, everyone should serve, but reality isn't so bright as almost noone with common-sense would like to serve in russian army when know he will be deployed to chechenya esspecialy if have chance to study, earn money, or not to die blowed up on IED...To army ussualy go people without other perspectives, gun nuts, army don't have realy choice who will be conscripted...



"MVD is Ministry of Internal Affairs some sort of FBI I think?"

Rubbish. FBI investigates crimes... you don't need an AK-74M with a 40mm grenade launcher for that. The MVD is an internal army organisation that is used in Riots or civil disturbances or local states of emergency... much like the US national guard.


I wasn't talking about internal organisation of that agencies, but about responsibiliites if those were wrong just tell me...MVD and FBI are internal inteligence agencys with force abilities (maybe MVD has stronger punch than FBI, but condition in Russia are different than in USA). Do You remember Waco? FBI used tanks aginst Koreshs sect :)
http://www.serendipity.li/waco/tanks.jpg

[Javehn]

Say Wha ????
That's FB-I ? Why? What the hell is that thing ?

http://www.serendipity.li/waco/tanks.jpg

[ariweiner]

"If only chechens have human rights why should russians care about respecting such things?"

Your racist attitude clearly exposes why the Russians need to be kicked out of Chechnya. If you are unable to recognize that the Chechens have rights as humans, then I think most of the people on this forum should be clearly able to grasp how Russian State sponsored terrorists have perpetrated and continue to commit heinous war crimes in the Ingushetia region.

[Dmitri]

recent memory have been committed by Russian State-sponsored terrorists in Chechnya.

Omfg, this is the most retarded statement ever!!! :bash: There cannot be any RUSSIA-SPONSORED TERRORISTS, Russia is fighting muslim terrorists, what would russian do there? So terrorists sponsored by Russia are fighting the ones sponsored by muslims? Or what?
:cantbeli:

[ariweiner]

"There cannot be any RUSSIA-SPONSORED TERRORISTS, Russia is fighting muslim terrorists, what would russian do there? So terrorists sponsored by Russia are fighting the ones sponsored by muslims? Or what?"

Without Russian terrorists committing atrocities in Chechnya, there would be no Muslim terrorists. Shamil Basayev was a creation of Russia and Russian atrocities against his people made him what he is. Continuing Russian atrocities have been reported by so many sources that the sheer numbers of reports leaves no question that the Russians are engaged in a literal genocide of the Chechen nation.

[anonymous individual]

the Russians are engaged in a literal genocide of the Chechen nation.[/quote]

Please do not use that word to describe the situation in Chechnya for the respect for those suffered in Holocaust and those actual victims in other real cases.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

I've said it before in this thread the fighting seems to be quite personal. There probably has been atrocities committed by both sides, whats needed is someone thats independant to verify all of these reports.

[Dmitri]

Dude, that whole quote from some kind of human rights watch tell me nothing. Those idiots don't even know what exactly is going on during each operation. If there are some terrorists and mercenaries hiding in the village, tell me some other way of catching them without closing off the village and doing a house to house search. Also, have you ever seen tapes terrorist make of killing soldiers? How they enjoy it? Why don't you take your stupid tree-hugging ass on their official website and bitch there. If the go in the house to cath a terrorist, and then some grandma pulls a gun and tries to shoot, she will be neutralized, just like anyone would do it, but then idiots like you will say she was just an innocent civilian.
Without Russian terrorists committing atrocities in Chechnya, there would be no Muslim terrorists. Shamil Basayev was a creation of Russia and Russian atrocities against his people made him what he is. Continuing Russian atrocities have been reported by so many sources that the sheer numbers of reports leaves no question that the Russians are engaged in a literal genocide of the Chechen nationThis is rediculous. Tell me some reasons why would Russia want Chechen people exterminated. Also, tell me why over 60% of Chechens support Russia? About Shamil Basayev: thats what he says, and tell me what would the atrocities that those Chechen terrorists and muslim mercenaries did against Russians "create" against them? And please, provide those numerous sources and sheer numbers.

[ariweiner]

"Tell me some reasons why would Russia want Chechen people exterminated."

The same reason why Russia deported the entire Chechen population to forced labor camps.

[Dmitri]

When was that?

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

I believe Stalin moved all the the Chechens in ww2 to Serbia (if i remeber correctly).

Either way both sides are going to blame each other for atrocities. Its pointless for us to try to figure out "who did what". Some of it will be the truth, some will be made up. Obviously Chechens and Russians dont get along very well, so there will be enormous amounts of blame/finger pointing.

Point being we shouldnt be fighting over the atrocities. Yes they are bad, yes they are against a couple geneva conventions (which dont matter too much these days).

[GazB]

"And here lies buried dog...Americans were aware that they are fighting not only to defeat Germans, but also to liberate occupied nations.... "

The Americans were fighting in Europe because their european allies asked them to? but not till after they were already at war in the pacific, and they fought in the Pacific because they were attacked first. If they really wanted to liberat the Pols why not declare war in 39 when the brits did?

The Soviets were fighting because they were invaded and had most of European parts of it largely destroyed and treated rather worse than you or I can imagine.

The Americans might have been all noble and wanting to liberate all the European countries that germany invaded... though they actually ignored the fact that these countries were being oppressed by Germany long before they joined the war in December 41. If they really wanted to see Pols set free why didn't they declare war on Germany in 39?

"Tainted? Tainted with what,"

Tainted with Nazism.

"maybe russians soldiers weren't aware who is their foe because they were spended like the cattle across half of Eruope trampling everyting on their way? "

They were quite aware of who was foe... as you march forward, you see starving people, people just executed because of their race, and then you enter Europe with healthy fat people who seem to have managed quite well during the war and perhaps you think they didn't fight occupation as much as they could have.

"Russia still have in their museums on expositions(ie: Hermitage) polish art stolen in WWII, but I've never heard that French are asking USA or GB to give back art stolen from Louvre. "

And most of the third world wants ancient artifacts to be returned but they are told no. Poland was not an ally to the Soviet Union till after the war when a soviet selected government took power. But you should know the politics of that better than I.

"maybe MVD has stronger punch than FBI, but condition in Russia are different than in USA). "

MVD has real tanks... permanently not pathetic armoured cars as used at Waco or M60 tanks borrowed from the local national guard. How many M1 Abrams does the FBI have? How many helicopter gunships like Hinds?

"I wasn't talking about internal organisation of that agencies, but about responsibiliites if those were wrong just tell me..."

Federal Bureau of Investigation is just that. A national (rather than state) org to investigate crime or criminal activities... often mob related.

The MVD is an internal army for where the US would use its national guard. It is only used inside the territory of the country (during cold war that included all soviet republics) but now that is Russia.

"Your racist attitude clearly exposes why the Russians need to be kicked out of Chechnya. If you are unable to recognize that the Chechens have rights as humans, then I think most of the people on this forum should be clearly able to grasp how Russian State sponsored terrorists have perpetrated and continue to commit heinous war crimes in the Ingushetia region."

What racist remarks? There are no Amnesty International reports on Chechen human rights violations of other Chechens or Russian soldiers and I think we have all seen videos to prove they have taken place. If these Russians have no rights why should any Chechen rebel have any?

"Without Russian terrorists committing atrocities in Chechnya, there would be no Muslim terrorists. Shamil Basayev was a creation of Russia and Russian atrocities against his people made him what he is. Continuing Russian atrocities have been reported by so many sources that the sheer numbers of reports leaves no question that the Russians are engaged in a literal genocide of the Chechen nation."

Perhaps if they were this will be over quicker than via any other solution. Muslim terrorism started well before the Russian troops were sent in... why do you think they were sent in in the first place.

"The same reason why Russia deported the entire Chechen population to forced labor camps."

For collaborating with the Germans during WWII, and that was Stalin... perhaps he could have done the world a favour and treated them like polish officers that wouldn't "change sides".

"Obviously Chechens and Russians dont get along very well, so there will be enormous amounts of blame/finger pointing. "

The Muslim extremist Chechen and the Russian don't get along you mean.

[Herrmannek]

"And here lies buried dog...Americans were aware that they are fighting not only to defeat Germans, but also to liberate occupied nations.... "

The Americans were fighting in Europe because their european allies asked them to? but not till after they were already at war in the pacific, and they fought in the Pacific because they were attacked first. If they really wanted to liberat the Pols why not declare war in 39 when the brits did?


Point isn't in why and when they started to fight Germans but how they did it, that includes behavior in liberated countrys...USA and Russia started war in the same year and similiar time, you must also remember(what is often forgoten) that Russia was Nazi "ally" until german attack in 1941 on the strenght of Ribentrof-Molotow packt...



The Soviets were fighting because they were invaded and had most of European parts of it largely destroyed and treated rather worse than you or I can imagine.


When I accused Russians for Fighting Nazis?



The Americans might have been all noble and wanting to liberate all the European countries that germany invaded... though they actually ignored the fact that these countries were being oppressed by Germany long before they joined the war in December 41. If they really wanted to see Pols set free why didn't they declare war on Germany in 39?


And Russia joined war in 17.9.1939 to fight those bloody bastads Germans :) ...Vultures & Cowards & Hipocrits(this is not about Russian people but your goverments curent, past and probably next)...



"Tainted? Tainted with what,"

Tainted with Nazism.

"maybe russians soldiers weren't aware who is their foe because they were spended like the cattle across half of Eruope trampling everyting on their way? "

They were quite aware of who was foe... as you march forward, you see starving people, people just executed because of their race, and then you enter Europe with healthy fat people who seem to have managed quite well during the war and perhaps you think they didn't fight occupation as much as they could have.


And they didn't blame Stalin that lack of food is his fault... strange :)



"Russia still have in their museums on expositions(ie: Hermitage) polish art stolen in WWII, but I've never heard that French are asking USA or GB to give back art stolen from Louvre. "

And most of the third world wants ancient artifacts to be returned but they are told no. Poland was not an ally to the Soviet Union till after the war when a soviet selected government took power. But you should know the politics of that better than I.


Do we look like third world to you, if those pieces of art were buried in some ancient temples or graves than you could make such point...but they were often taken from musseums' expositions and magazines, packed into cars and taken to russia in long columns of lorys...
BTW you should learn some history...Soviet Union was our "ally" since 30.7.1941 on the strenght of arrangement "Sikorski-Majski" signed in London...



"maybe MVD has stronger punch than FBI, but condition in Russia are different than in USA). "

MVD has real tanks... permanently not pathetic armoured cars as used at Waco or M60 tanks borrowed from the local national guard. How many M1 Abrams does the FBI have? How many helicopter gunships like Hinds?

"I wasn't talking about internal organisation of that agencies, but about responsibiliites if those were wrong just tell me..."

Federal Bureau of Investigation is just that. A national (rather than state) org to investigate crime or criminal activities... often mob related.

The MVD is an internal army for where the US would use its national guard. It is only used inside the territory of the country (during cold war that included all soviet republics) but now that is Russia.

So why someone pointed that in chechenya fights not army but MVD implicating that there is major difference betwen, if there is almost no fuccking difference betwen excluding name and place of operating?

[GazB]

"Point isn't in why and when they started to fight Germans but how they did it,"

Don't you think the reason why they were fighting would effect how they fought. Besides which part of Poland did the US liberate?

"that Russia was Nazi "ally" until german attack in 1941 on the strenght of Ribentrof-Molotow packt... "

Stalin approached the British but they could offer nothing but verbal support. A pact with Hitler at least meant the Soviets could keep the German forces half the width of Poland away from Moscow... rather more than britain was offering.

"And Russia joined war in 17.9.1939 to fight those bloody bastads Germans ...Vultures & Cowards & Hipocrits(this is not about Russian people but your goverments curent, past and probably next)... "

You were the one that claimed the US was a liberator and the Soviets were not. I never stated that the Soviet Union did anything for any bull**** ideals like freedom of speech or democracy. Even Churchill, who hated Communism made agreements when it was conveniant.

"And they didn't blame Stalin that lack of food is his fault... strange"

Of course, burning fields of corn and bombing supply routes was Stalins doing and the Nazis had nothing to do with that.

"Do we look like third world to you, if those pieces of art were buried in some ancient temples or graves than you could make such point...but they were often taken from musseums' expositions and magazines, packed into cars and taken to russia in long columns of lorys... "

The British museum is filled with treasures looted from most of the known world. Mostly taken from "Their" colonies. Even including the severed heads of natives for display. You don't think the real owners or descendants of family or states want them back? It is called booty, spoils of war, or hard cheese we own it now... or any combination.

"BTW you should learn some history...Soviet Union was our "ally" since 30.7.1941 on the strenght of arrangement "Sikorski-Majski" signed in London..."

That was an agreement signed after the Germans attacked the Soviet Union. They would have called Pitcairn Island an ally and signed a piece of paper with them if it had improved their position. Worth less than the paper it was written on... or do you think Stalin was a man of his word?

"So why someone pointed that in chechenya fights not army but MVD implicating that there is major difference betwen, if there is almost no fuccking difference betwen excluding name and place of operating?"

They are trained for urban use. They don't operate like a tank division or motor rifle division and are trained to control civilians and civilian populations... unlike army. Armies are generally very bad at controlling civilian populations... just look at Iraq. That is what the MVD would be good at... a cross between the police and army, with army firepower when needed.

[16 OBr SpN]

Dear 16 OBr SpN

These questions are somewhat related to what you have mentioned previously. I apologize if the following questions have been asked or answered, as well as the wrongful accusations I might make mistakenly. There has been a prolonging period of time between when I read this thread and the numinous time coming up with questions. Almost fail to mention, I write with poor English.

I roughly believe you had stated that the Russian armed forces were remaking the same mistakes made in Afghanistan in the first Chechen War. Have the forces taken the necessary steps to reinvent their attitudes seriously? Is there any sign of improvement?

What would one regular officer in-charge might say to his or her troops before heading to Chechnya in the First and Second War? In addition to the question, is there any change in what to point out to troops between the two wars?

As a Recon. member of the Special Forces and as an advisor in the Second War, which war would you find yourself safer, in the Afghan, First or Second Chechen War? Can you justify why so?

Thank you for you time;
AI

1) During 1st chechen war, mistakes were made both on the tactical and strategic level.
1) Capabilities of the chechens were underestimated.
2) Politicians were strongly involved all the way.
3) A clear mission objective was not set up.
4) No time for planning was given whatsoever.
5) Since there was no planning, information war was lost without even starting. Therefore support of Russian population was poor.

With the beginning of the 2nd war, clearly, major progress was done on all levels.

2) I wouldn't know what someone would say before entering chechnya. Those who've been in 1st War and Afghan war know what it's all about - We are given orders, and our duty is to follow them. Although I have to admit, each soldier has to support his comrade, otherwise the burden of your comrade's death will lay on you until you die. Officers are the ones who carry this burden first.

"In addition to the question, is there any change in what to point out to troops between the two wars?"

- I didn't quite understand what do you mean by that. Please clarify.

3) No war is "safer". It's war.
Besides, considering specific terrain of Afghanistan and Chechnya, with major focus given to mobile units; in my personal experience, all three wars were equally dangerous.
But in Afghanistan we were given more autonomy in our actions. Armored and air support was not that hard to get, unlike the case of Chechnya. In Chechnya when you are going to the mission you have to remember that basically you are on your own.

This might seem impossible in the western armies, but in Russian army due to financial problems, it is. What some "wise" generls fail to understand, is in Afghanistan, spetsnaz units, backed by choppers and armor were the most efficient and deadly units.
Our guys have completed hundreds of operations in Chechnya with no armored/air support, basically walking out of the area of operation. One who knows specifics on those kinds of missions, knows what it truly means to go in and out, and how hard it is.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[16 OBr SpN]

"If only chechens have human rights why should russians care about respecting such things?"

Your racist attitude clearly exposes why the Russians need to be kicked out of Chechnya. If you are unable to recognize that the Chechens have rights as humans, then I think most of the people on this forum should be clearly able to grasp how Russian State sponsored terrorists have perpetrated and continue to commit heinous war crimes in the Ingushetia region.

Simply stating, I don't give a **** about what you think about that war.
Moreover, I don't give a **** what "human rights" assholes have to say about it. I've seen the true nature of "democrats" and "human rights" activists.

If you think that we should be kicked out of chechnya, why don't you come to chechnya and fight? That's of course, if you have balls, and not afraid to have them cut off. :lol:

Otherwise, stop saying bull**** about things you have no idea of.

[GazB]

"Interesting time of posting. Isn't deep night now in New Zealand? BTW did you ever been in Russia?"


I have errr Flexible hours at this time of year.. :-)

I am planning to go to the Moscow Airshow in 2005, but otherwise no, I haven't been to Russia...

[GazB]

16 OBr SpN, could you tell me about the MON series of mines.

At the moment my understanding is that the MON-50 looks and operates in a very similar way to a Claymore mine... a rectangular block of HE with ballbearings pushed into one face so that when the HE charge goes off the ballbearings are flung out toward the target in a relatively focused group... effective range being 50m.

I have seen a photo in a book of a MON mine that was round. I have read about MON-100 and MON-300 that are larger and sound very useful.

Do these weapons exist (MON-100 and MON-300) and what do they look like and for that matter what does the MON-50 look like.
How effective are they for ambushes or attacks on enemy bases?

[Whistler]

Don't you think the reason why they were fighting would effect how they fought. Besides which part of Poland did the US liberate?

Hate to break it to you, but thanks to your Soviet friends Poland wasn't "liberated" until sometime in 1989 or so...

I wish the US could have done it before then, but that probably would have started WW3 :(.

The western allies owe a debt to Poland for selling them out during WW2. The Soviets were almost as bad to them as the Nazis were. Sorry Poland :(.

[Herrmannek]

"Point isn't in why and when they started to fight Germans but how they did it,"

Don't you think the reason why they were fighting would effect how they fought. Besides which part of Poland did the US liberate?


Whe have bad luck...Soviets did all work... :)



"that Russia was Nazi "ally" until german attack in 1941 on the strenght of Ribentrof-Molotow packt... "

Stalin approached the British but they could offer nothing but verbal support. A pact with Hitler at least meant the Soviets could keep the German forces half the width of Poland away from Moscow... rather more than britain was offering.


----------------Taking quick history lessons to not write something stupid -------------------




"And Russia joined war in 17.9.1939 to fight those bloody bastads Germans ...Vultures & Cowards & Hipocrits(this is not about Russian people but your goverments curent, past and probably next)... "

You were the one that claimed the US was a liberator and the Soviets were not. I never stated that the Soviet Union did anything for any bull**** ideals like freedom of speech or democracy.


They done everything they could to extuingish them in the spot....



Even Churchill, who hated Communism made agreements when it was conveniant.


but he didn't killed his oposition....



"And they didn't blame Stalin that lack of food is his fault... strange"

Of course, burning fields of corn and bombing supply routes was Stalins doing and the Nazis had nothing to do with that.


You know Soviet Union never was place of prosperity and not because Nazis invaded.....



"Do we look like third world to you, if those pieces of art were buried in some ancient temples or graves than you could make such point...but they were often taken from musseums' expositions and magazines, packed into cars and taken to russia in long columns of lorys... "

The British museum is filled with treasures looted from most of the known world. Mostly taken from "Their" colonies. Even including the severed heads of natives for display. You don't think the real owners or descendants of family or states want them back? It is called booty, spoils of war, or hard cheese we own it now... or any combination.


Remember we are talking about WWII, not about 19th century colonial England. Even then looting probablly rarelly was orginised mass scale military action... :)



"BTW you should learn some history...Soviet Union was our "ally" since 30.7.1941 on the strenght of arrangement "Sikorski-Majski" signed in London..."

That was an agreement signed after the Germans attacked the Soviet Union. They would have called Pitcairn Island an ally and signed a piece of paper with them if it had improved their position. Worth less than the paper it was written on... or do you think Stalin was a man of his word?

liked or not, trusted or not, still allies.

[Kitsune]

After Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union cooperated in conquering Poland...and before Hitler attacked anything else in spring 1940...Stalin attacked Finland. Still no declaration of war from either France, Great Britain or the USA. It is a bit strange.

Hitlers Holocaust would start from 1942 on. Until 1941 the death toll of the Nazi regime was some tens of thousands of murdered victims, possibly a hundred thousand.
But Stalins regime had killed more than 10 million during the great purge between 1935 and 1940.

From 1942 on the Nazis would kill millions just because of race or religion. Cruel.
But the system under Stalin was like this: Every region of the Soviet Union had to fulfill a quota how many people they had to execute or send to a Gulag. This was called "category I" (death peanlty) and "category II" (Gulag). If Stalin was angry with some region he personally would increase this numbers for the ongoing month. This was done both, before and after WWII. I do not know why GaZb is that fascinated by the Soviet Union. But Stalin was every bit as cruel as Hitler, possibly even more. His underlings were so afraid of him that a special signal had to be used so that they would stop applauding him after a speech (no one dared to be the first who stopped clapping his hands). Hitler never had to do this.

[koster]

I remember hearing from someone that MON 100 and 200 were given a nickname "Uebishe" in Afgan war. I guess noone really liked to carry around a ~24kg mine.
MON 100
http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/zloy/images/MON-100__AP__directional_2kg_of_TNT.jpg
MON 50
http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/zloy/images/MON-50__AP__directional_700gr_of_PVV-4.jpg

[UkrainianAmerican]

But the system under Stalin was like this: Every region of the Soviet Union had to fulfill a quota how many people they had to execute or send to a Gulag. This was called "category I" (death peanlty) and "category II" (Gulag). If Stalin was angry with some region he personally would increase this numbers for the ongoing month. This was done both, before and after WWII. I do not know why GaZb is that fascinated by the Soviet Union. But Stalin was every bit as cruel as Hitler, possibly even more. His underlings were so afraid of him that a special signal had to be used so that they would stop applauding him after a speech (no one dared to be the first who stopped clapping his hands). Hitler never had to do this.
Nicely said.

[ariweiner]

FSB Agents eliminated by Chechen Special Forces

Internet edition Ichkeria.dk reported referring to its own sources that January 10 in one of the residential neighborhoods of the Chechen capital a squad of Chechen troops from the unit of Commander I. Munayev carried out a successful combat operation on elimination of four agents of Russian FSB (Federal Security Service, former KGB).

Chechen fighters had a lead given to them by a local resident. The squad surrounded the house where Russian secret agents were celebrating a birthday of one of their colleagues. Russian terrorists were killed on the spot in the surprise-attack special operation. Two local females were captured at the scene. The females were at the party and they confessed that they were recruited by the invaders.

During the interrogation the women gave out the information that helped save the lives of several Chechen families, against which the FSB was preparing punitive repressions. Later on it turned out that the FSB agents – Captain R. Fedorchuk and Senior Lieutenants Y. Kovalev and P. Nesterenko, who were killed by the Chechen fighters – were sent out to Chechnya from Rostov Province, Southern Russia. Meanwhile our sources also reported that some documents of interest to the Chechen Military Command were discovered on the Russian bandits.

Moreover, Chechen troops opened fire on the building of the puppet administration in Jokhar. Moscow-based news agency RIA Novosti reported referring to the press service of the ringleader of Chechnya's puppet administration that Monday morning the Mujahideen (Chechen fighters) opened fire on the government complex of the puppet regime by using a grenade-launcher.

«The attack occurred at 10:45 Moscow Time. Unknown attackers fired two shots from a lower-barrel grenade launcher at the Republic’s government complex located on Garazhnaya Street», puppet press service official specified.

The blasts occurred on the premises of Chechnya's puppet structures, where two collaborators sustained injuries. No reports have come in from the Chechen side so far.

Special operations by Chechen Armed Forces

Source of DAYMOHK news agency in the strictures of CRI Armed Forces reported that on January 5 Chechen troops blew up two BTR armored personnel carriers belonging to the invaders’ formations. The vehicle was moving on the Gudermes-Novogrozny highway. It was reported that a directional mine MON-100 was set up on the route of the movement of the armored vehicle transporting the aggressors belonging to the group of sappers. The source specified that the blast was carried out precisely at the right moment, and apparently hit the target. No exact number of killed and wounded has been established.

January 6 a similar blast of an armored vehicle with Russian sappers on board was carried out in Gudermes District of CRI on the Jalka-Engeloi highway. This blast was also carried out by using a MON-100 directional mine. No enemy casualties have been reported.

The same source reported that on December 28 on the same Jalka-Engeloi highway the Mujahideen blew up another armored vehicle. The panic-stricken invaders fled the scene of the blast immediately. At least one invader was reportedly killed in the blast.

Earlier, December 9, 2003, in the city of Gudermes a group of Russian invaders was blown up by using a MON-100 directional mine as well. The aggressors were relieving the guards at the reinforced position on the roof of the city’s telephone station. The Mujahideen detonated the mine when the invaders approached closer to the place where the mine was set up. Chechen troops were unable to get the exact number of invaders killed and wounded due to the fact that the Mujahideen were operating in close proximity to the positions of deployment of large troops of the enemy formations and had to withdraw from the scene of the combat operation immediately.

[Undo]

HAHAHAHA...

Seriously, though, you shouldn't quote these ridiculous sources like kavkazcenter and ichkeria. Total fiction. Quoting sources like this will ruin your credibility, especially if you just post this crap verbatim.

Heh...chechen "troops"...

Throat-cutting terrorists.

[Russian Texan]

Ariveiner, stop waising your time because you won't find many believers here. Why don't you go to one of the extremist islamic/muslim sites where people are much more likely to believe you and provide them with this "information from reliable sources".
BTW if the one to believe your sources, then Russia should have already lost in Chechnya 2 times its army, 3 times its airforce and all of its navy.
For those who don't know, according to the sources mentioned above "Kursk" was sunk by a Chechen suicide bomber....

[anonymous individual]

For those who don't know, according to the sources mentioned above "Kursk" was sunk by a Chechen suicide bomber....

Is "Kursk" the sunken U-boat a year ago? If it is, it would be funny by saying it got sunkened by a suicude bomber. That is a complete ridicule.

[Russian Texan]

Yep, thats the one and according to kavkazcenter.com it was sunk by a chechen suicide bomber who infiltrated the crew. See, it might seem ridiculous to you and me but there are a lot of people with a certain cultural/ethnical/religious background who believe it.

[anonymous individual]

I have no idea why people would believe in such thing. Some people would never believe in the truth and choose to use their crazy fantasy to reject all the very simple reasoning. Like some people from the Middle-East believe 9-11 was a plot made by the US government to allow teh Americans to have the "excuse" to invade their country!!!! I would like to say to them, "err... are you a fiction novelist?" I will not be surpised if the US government in fact plotted 9-11, but the question is why would they do such thing. I am sure the US could come out with many other better alternatives in making a plotted case against some country than choosing the plot of 9-11... :roll:

[anonymous individual]

In addition to the question, is there any change in what to point out to troops between the two wars?

I had no idea what was I writing. My English is very pathetic. :D

I am thinking I am about to go slightly off topic of what 16 OBr SpN original set this thread up. I had a theory that how the Russian are the bad asses in Chechnya. I want to share with you guys and see how you guys feel. Please flame this post if you want. I don't mind, as long as you post your thoughts. I really want to know.

Before sharing, I would like to state that I could not even be classified myself as an "armature" on the subject of Chechnya. My knowledge of it is next to none. I am very confident that you will find more credibility from human rights watch groups and terrorist web sites than from me.

Here is my little theory on how Russians became the “bad guys” originated...


1) During 1st chechen war, mistakes were made both on the tactical and strategic level.
1) Capabilities of the chechens were underestimated.
2) Politicians were strongly involved all the way.
3) A clear mission objective was not set up.
4) No time for planning was given whatsoever.
5) Since there was no planning, information war was lost without even starting. Therefore support of Russian population was poor.

That sounded very much like NAM to me. This environment could have encouraged atrocities to exist done amongst those Russian conscripts with poor background as it did similarly in NAM for Americans. These things provoke the Chechens to return atrocities back against their enemy. Those Russian soldiers with a good heart were corrupted by the horror and return atrocities back. Human rights watch groups got large amount of information, which is mostly incorrect or inaccurate, from the terrorist sources about what is doing on in Chechnya than from the limited and not-so-open Russian side. Therefore, they were with the Chechen and processed of a “corrupted” point of view. The Chechen terrorists invited Human rights groups and brought them specific “sites” that would prove they were the righteous ones. This caused the Internet to have a large majority of Pro-Chechen, or anti-Russian, materials on the Internet. This gave an impression to people that Russians were clearly the “bad guys”. People believed because this.

How do you guys feel about this? Please flame me! I am interested to know your ideas.

BTW, please excuse my poor English. It might restrict you to understand my POV. Sorry!

[Dmitri]

These things provoke the Chechens to return atrocities back against their enemy.
I don't think you are quite right on this one. Although no one can ever answer this question correctly, I believe atrocities existed on both sides from the beginning (as most wars do). Also, no offence to anyone, muslims are always known for their cruelty, especially dealing with christians (which 95% of Russians are). Example: there was a video circulating on the Net from the first war where a Russian POW was made to take his pants off, tied down and put on the bucket which had a snake in it. Now, the only way for the snake to get out is to go you know where. That is gotta be the worst death ever. I'm not even talking about killing POW's by cutting the d#@ks off :fork:

[16 OBr SpN]

16 OBr SpN, could you tell me about the MON series of mines.

At the moment my understanding is that the MON-50 looks and operates in a very similar way to a Claymore mine... a rectangular block of HE with ballbearings pushed into one face so that when the HE charge goes off the ballbearings are flung out toward the target in a relatively focused group... effective range being 50m.

I have seen a photo in a book of a MON mine that was round. I have read about MON-100 and MON-300 that are larger and sound very useful.

Do these weapons exist (MON-100 and MON-300) and what do they look like and for that matter what does the MON-50 look like.
How effective are they for ambushes or attacks on enemy bases?

MON-50 is very effective. We've used it throughout the Afghan and Chechen war. Other ones are PMN-2, and POMZ.

MON-100 is heavy and bulky, and I remember us using it only couple of times. It was mostly used in advance on certain mine fields by other troops. But in our operations when you have to move long distances, the power of the MON-100 was offset by its weight (leave alone MON-200).

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[GazB]

"Hate to break it to you, but thanks to your Soviet friends Poland wasn't "liberated" until sometime in 1989 or so..."

Hate to break it to you Whistler but I was asking when the US liberated Poland... and the answer is of course never.

"Taking quick history lessons to not write something stupid "

The British were in no position to do anything to help the Soviets against the Germans... and alliance with Britain would be useless... germany would still have invaded poland... and taken all of it but then Russia would be at war with germany... with no help at all possible from Britain. I know my history... do you? Remember the phoney war period, where Britain and Germany were at war, but nothing was happening because Germany wasn't close enough to Britain to do anything and vice versa? What sort of ally woud she be to the Soviets then? Doing what he did Stalin at least kept the Germans half the width of Poland further away and delayed op barbarossa for over a year.

"They done everything they could to extuingish them in the spot...."

And why wouldn't they? What did Stalin care for freedom of speech for anyone but himself?

"but he didn't killed his oposition.... "

He wasn't in a position to kill anyone... except nazis.

"You know Soviet Union never was place of prosperity and not because Nazis invaded..... "

Of course, economic isolation and the cost of matching the US in weapons ensured that.

"Remember we are talking about WWII, not about 19th century colonial England. Even then looting probablly rarelly was orginised mass scale military action..."

Ahhh, so whether it was wrong or right depends upon the date on the caledar. Excellent... wait a few more years and it won't matter then.

"liked or not, trusted or not, still allies."

Like the US and Communist China are allies.
(ie the enemy of my biggest enemy is my friend).

"After Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union cooperated in conquering Poland...and before Hitler attacked anything else in spring 1940...Stalin attacked Finland. Still no declaration of war from either France, Great Britain or the USA. It is a bit strange. "

Britain and the Commonwealth declared war on Germany with the invasion of Poland... they just didn't do vey much about it till the rest of Europe was invaded.

"I do not know why GaZb is that fascinated by the Soviet Union. But Stalin was every bit as cruel as Hitler, possibly even more. His underlings were so afraid of him that a special signal had to be used so that they would stop applauding him after a speech (no one dared to be the first who stopped clapping his hands). Hitler never had to do this."

And why do you think the Soviet Union and Stalin were the same thing? Should the US be hated for the way they treated black people 200 years ago? Or should the US be hated because this president used a nuclear bomb or that president invaded vietnam or this one invaded Haiti or grenada. Or supported hussain in the 80s. How many dictators does the US support around the world... just like Stalins pact with Hitler the US would support anyone who was fighting communists... even including other communists like the Chinese.

koster thanks for the pics and info.
Thanks too to 16 OBr SpN.

anonymous individual

what you say about atrocities largely makes sense but:

"These things provoke the Chechens to return atrocities back against their enemy. "

considering the reasons for going into chechenia in the first place I don't think you could blame the Russians for commiting any atrocities first.

"This gave an impression to people that Russians were clearly the “bad guys”. People believed because this. "

Most people in the west point to Stalin and claim this is proof that the Russians will always be the bad guys. I guess that must mean all Iraqis must be bad... considering that Saddam is a bad guy... all iraqis must be bad. Glad I am not American... must be tough being perfect. :roll:

BTW 16 OBr SpN, how do you feel being classed as the bad guy because some Georgian nutter killed so many fellow Russians after he took power?
Was it really your fault?

[Flagg]

Chechen conflict is the war where everything got mixed up: politics, money, personal revenge. On the one hand it was you, Americans along with the Brits. Your government followed certain agenda and widely supported Chechens by providing them with equipment, and money. Later on you started using your ass-kissers like Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Turkey to further help Chechens. There were many Brits out there. Not all journalists, not all of Arabic origin, and not all mercenaries. Here is food for your thought. Chechens were very generously supplied with brand new NATO camo, Claymore mines, radio jamming equipment, NV goggles, satellite phones, etc. All today’s “war on terror” bull**** should start against some elements of your governments.

16 OBr SpN

I'm just catching up with this thread........having been reading recently about Saudi Arabian support for Muslim Resistence groups to the Soviet/Russian conflict in Afghanistan during th 1980's, as well as support for Muslim groups in former Yugoslavia...

I'd be keen to learn if much direct or circumstantial evidence pointing to Saudi Arabia supporting Muslim Chechen terrorist groups has been found?

[Kingpin]

I'd be keen to learn if much direct or circumstantial evidence pointing to Saudi Arabia supporting Muslim Chechen terrorist groups has been found?

Little information gone public. For example satellite phone calls originating from Saudi Arabia to Chechen leader about money required to continue operations. But actually not much information was leaked about this. relationship

[Groove]

For collaborating with the Germans during WWII, and that was Stalin... perhaps he could have done the world a favour and treated them like polish officers that wouldn't "change sides".

Stop posting your insults pls. I think your family must have been great Stalin Fans and Partymember during the Soviet Times ? Your dumbass Stalin was worser then every other known Dictator.

The killing of thousands of polish Elite just to prevent any contra for his soviet-installed-government shows his pervert mind. And you think its okay ? Lol GazB !

pls stop it

Groove

[koster]

I thought this thread was about Chechen war ;)

[Groove]

yes - but when some1 is writing such BS i cannot sit still.

All my thx to 16 OBR for this interesting threa though!

Groove

[GazB]

"Stop posting your insults pls. I think your family must have been great Stalin Fans and Partymember during the Soviet Times ? Your dumbass Stalin was worser then every other known Dictator. "

The person I was talking to was basically suggesting that the Russians today are no different to the Russians under Stalin.
Such ignorance deserves extermination.

"Your dumbass Stalin was worser then every other known Dictator. "

Now I am Stalin, or he belongs to me?

"The killing of thousands of polish Elite just to prevent any contra for his soviet-installed-government shows his pervert mind. And you think its okay ? Lol GazB ! "

Not Polish elite... I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, assuming English is not your first language. If you read what I said properly you will see I am referring to collaborators. If the polish elite were collaborators then, yes, execute them... even the French did that.

[Kicius]

I'm not sure if I read you correctly GazB, but 20 000 of polish officers and policemen executed in Katyń and few other places weren't colaborators.

As Groove wrote, that was made to "prevent contra". My grandpa spend few years is soviet coal mine for being a memebr of Armia Krajowa.

I don't blame a soviet nation in general but he wasn't colaborator too.

There were many more cases of genocide and war crimes.
You can't discuss with facts.


But the subject is Chechen War. And English isn't my first language.

[Groove]

OT: In Katyn died not only Officers but also other ppl which could be important in Building an new Stalin-Independent Government.

Groove

PS: They used German weapons to kill the Poles so they could say Nazis slaughtered them...

[Kicius]

PS: They used German weapons to kill the Poles so they could say Nazis slaughtered them...

I don't think it is true.

Executions started in april 1940.

Stalin rather didn't expected Germans to take this territory in 1941.

And the Germans found the graves in april 1943.


In Katyn died not only Officers but also other ppl which could be important in Building an new Stalin-Independent Government.



Agree. Officers, policemen, intelligence officers, employees of "Ministry of Justice" and others.

[Groove]

NKWD used German weapons and Ammunition to blame Nazis for the whole thing. Russia opened they archives in the mid 90s afaik and said that NKWD killed the Poles and not the Nazis.

Groove

[Kicius]

Still off topic but:

Yes, NKWD (Stalin, USSR) blamed Germans for the executions.
But there were various weapons used: TT and Walther 4 pistols, Mosin rifles and probably others. Not all of them are German - I hope you agree with that?

They blamed Germans - what else could they do?

It was extremely "uncomfortable" to say truth.

[UkrainianSpetsnaz]

16 OBr SpN
thanks for all the great info.

[insaneloke]

16 OBr SpN
you were in chechnya
whats your rank and are you SF like alfa
how long were you in chechnya and how many of them did you kill
you know any good websites about the conflict in chechnya with lots of pics
you know where to get the nord ost video
what smallarms, tanks, and aircraft do the chechens use
do they got any smalls and aaa guns

Я говорю русского

[Russian Texan]

16 OBr SpN
you were in chechnya
whats your rank and are you SF like alfa
how long were you in chechnya and how many of them did you kill
you know any good websites about the conflict in chechnya with lots of pics
you know where to get the nord ost video
what smallarms, tanks, and aircraft do the chechens use
do they got any smalls and aaa guns

Я говорю русского

One more reason why internet use should have minimum age limit.

Мальчик, тебе сколько лет и что ты здесь делаешь?

[anonymous individual]

16 OBr SpN
you were in chechnya
whats your rank and are you SF like alfa
how long were you in chechnya and how many of them did you kill
you know any good websites about the conflict in chechnya with lots of pics
you know where to get the nord ost video
what smallarms, tanks, and aircraft do the chechens use
do they got any smalls and aaa guns

Я говорю русского

One more reason why internet use should have minimum age limit.

Мальчик, тебе сколько лет и что ты здесь делаешь?

That is a bit too nasty. :D

insaneloke, just read all the posts made by 16 OBr SpN in this thread. They can already give you some ideas without asking these questions.

[GazB]

"PS: They used German weapons to kill the Poles so they could say Nazis slaughtered them..."

Where did they get the nazi weapons from?

"I'm not sure if I read you correctly GazB, but 20 000 of polish officers and policemen executed in Katyń and few other places weren't colaborators. "

They weren't colaborators with the nazis, but they were potential internal enemies for Stalin. He was a very ruthless person... of that there is no question. As I said above, so was Saddam, but the US went in to Liberate the innocent victims... the Iraqi people. Amazing that all Russians are guilty of Stalins crimes but all iraqis are innocent. I guess it depends upon your agenda...

"Russia opened they archives in the mid 90s afaik and said that NKWD killed the Poles and not the Nazis. "

There is no question that Stalin had these people killed. In the same way that he had leaflets proclaiming that the Soviet forces would be i Warsaw in a few days to get his potential rivals to rise up and be slaughtered by his enemies before he got there... he waited to make sure it happened. Use the Nazis to waste ammo and lives killing potential rival to his control of post war Poland was very cunning and ruthless. Of course considering the pain and effort the Soviets had gone through to get to there it was cunning and ruthless of his political enemies to try to rise up and take control before his forces got there in the hope they could remain independant. Of course there were always going to be some innocent victims that rose up to aid the Soviets in their attack just to help kill nazis.

[Groove]

They bought the Nazi Weapons from Ebay i think....

The question is why they didnt used russian.

But its okay for now.

Groove

[insaneloke]

Russian Texan
я не буду маленьким мальчиком поэтому идет рапс
некоторые маленькие мальчики маленькие, котор мальчики много большле
чем вы однако если вы знаете, то я намереваюсь пойдите всасываете
пенис

:bash:

[Russian Texan]

rofl rofl rofl rofl
Please do us all a favor and switch to english or find a decent online translator, seriously.

Ну а если вы взрослый дядя, то почему задаёте тупые вопросы?

[insaneloke]

what are laughing at asshole
see i switched to english
i have a question for you why do you say so much bull ****

only steers and queers come from texas
n you dont look like a steer to me
that kind of narrows it down

or are you just some poor boy from the urals with a cowboy hat

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

[Javehn]

Get lost , you idiot . I think Hood should really consider to screan some people that comes in here . Just to bad idiots like this ruins this great site .
If you want to show that you are idiot , please do it on other more fitted (teenager) forums .

[UkrainianAmerican]

what are laughing at asshole
see i switched to english
i have a question for you why do you say so much bull ****

only steers and queers come from texas
n you dont look like a steer to me
that kind of narrows it down

or are you just some poor boy from the urals with a cowboy hat

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
Dont diss texas.
:bash:

[Haiw]

Quit screwing up the thread damnit.

Just something I was curious about after reading about the 'international volunteers' in Yugoslavia... It was already mentioned that there were foreigners fighting on the rebel side, but were they really organised? I mean, were there like foreign brigades or anything like that or were they just lone exceptions that just looked for a rebel unit and then decided to go with them?

[Kingpin]

Quit screwing up the thread damnit.

Just something I was curious about after reading about the 'international volunteers' in Yugoslavia... It was already mentioned that there were foreigners fighting on the rebel side, but were they really organised? I mean, were there like foreign brigades or anything like that or were they just lone exceptions that just looked for a rebel unit and then decided to go with them?

What do you mean by rebel side?

[Haiw]

You know..the side fighting the Russian army.

[Kingpin]

Russian Army? In Yugoslavia? You're kidding