About Nothing

[Rantanplan]

*no more pics here*

[coughybean]

Good pictures, ...It's amazing to see so far into the past. :)

[tyovan]

Cool pictures mate!

A question about "Schutztruppe": is the term applied to all German soldiers of this time period, or just to German infantry of this period, or only to the German colonial troops in this period, or German troops over any time period? Is it a specific term or just a general term?

[Freeman]

or only to the German colonial troops in this period
thats it

[Rantanplan]

*no more pics here*

[Rantanplan]

*no more pics here*

[Yosy]

Great pics. I love all this classic stuff, from a time where being in the military was really popular.

[Bryson C]

Excellent pics.

[bloddyaxe]

Nice stuff... Interesting that the Nazi party eventually wore the same uniforms as those black troops. p-)

[Bombtrack]

Nice stuff... Interesting that the Nazi party eventually wore the same uniforms as those black troops. p-)

not quite..

[Shadow]

WTF?
Is this a serious post from Rantanplan?!
:| *confused*

[Rantanplan]

WTF?
Is this a serious post from Rantanplan?!
:| *confused*

:lol: sod off

[Backwoodshunter]

Wow that is some sweet stuff, thanks for posting the pics, this is by far my favorite historical period and topic.

[bloddyaxe]

Nice stuff... Interesting that the Nazi party eventually wore the same uniforms as those black troops. p-)

not quite..

ok ok. The same type of uniform.

[Rantanplan]

Nice stuff... Interesting that the Nazi party eventually wore the same uniforms as those black troops. p-)

not quite..

ok ok. The same type of uniform.

No dude. Completely different uniform.

http://www.axishistory.com/fileadmin/user_upload/p/polizei-sa-berlin-1933.jpg

[Rantanplan]

*no more pics here*

[Wodan]

Deutsch-Südwestafrika(german south-west africa)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Wappen-S%C3%BCdwestafrika.JPG


This song is still nowadays seen as a kind of national anthem, by the white population of namibia (even the ones that arent from germany)

Hart wie Kameldornholz ist unser Land
Und trocken sind seine Reviere.
Die Klippen, sie sind von der Sonne verbrannt
Und scheu sind im Busch die Tiere.
|: Und sollte man uns fragen:
Was hält euch denn hier fest?
Wir könnten nur sagen:
Wir lieben Südwest! :|

Doch unsre Liebe ist teuer bezahlt
Trotz allem, wir lassen dich nicht
Weil unsere Sorgen überstrahlt
Der Sonne hell leuchtendes Licht.
|: Und sollte man uns fragen:
Was hält euch denn hier fest?
Wir könnten nur sagen:
Wir lieben Südwest! :|

Und kommst du selber in unser Land
Und hast seine Weiten gesehen
Und hat unsre Sonne ins Herz dir gebrannt
Dann kannst du nicht wieder gehen.
|: Und sollte man dich fragen:
Was hält dich denn hier fest?
Du könntest nur sagen:
Ich liebe Südwest! :|

http://musi.ca/refer/hartwiek.MP3

In 1902 there were 2,595 germans in south-west, nowadays there are still 20,000 germans in Namibia

german newspaper from namibia:
http://www.az.com.na/


(32% of the population speaks still german)

[bloddyaxe]

Nice stuff... Interesting that the Nazi party eventually wore the same uniforms as those black troops. p-)

not quite..

ok ok. The same type of uniform.

No dude. Completely different uniform.

http://www.axishistory.com/fileadmin/user_upload/p/polizei-sa-berlin-1933.jpg

But their nazi parties uniforms were still originally destined for the german colonial armys.

[Midav]

Very interesting pics. Ty for posting!

[Celareon]

Amazing Pictures, interestingly enough i was doing some research into germany's colonies a few weeks ago, its simply amazing seeing all that i've been reading come to life.

Fantastic job gentleman. woot

[Rantanplan]

*no more pics here*

[Freibier]

http://img162.echo.cx/img162/9757/willken010201small7pb.jpg

Colonel Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck (1870-1964) was remarkable among military commanders of the First World War in that he served for the entire period without ever having suffered defeat.

Often compared with the better-known T.E. Lawrence - Lawrence of Arabia - Lettow-Vorbeck similarly was a master of guerrilla warfare, this time in East Africa. With a force never great than 14,000 in total - comprised of 3,000 German and 11,000 Askari (native African) troops - Lettow-Vorbeck ran rings around Allied forces (for the most part British and South African) that were ten times larger than his own.

Lettow-Vorbeck realised quickly that the German campaign against Allied forces in East Africa needed to be conducted on his own terms, largely by seizing (and retaining) the initiative.

Prior to the war Lettow-Vorbeck had seen service during the Boxer Rebellion, and in German Southwest Africa (Namibia) during the Hottentot and Herero Rebellion of 1904-08, during which he was wounded and sent to South Africa to recuperate.

Six months before the the outbreak of war in 1914, Lettow-Vorbeck - then a Lieutenant-Colonel - was given command of Germany's forces in East Africa, which included twelve companies of Askari troops.

In August he began his war by attacking the British railway in Kenya. Three months later a large mixed British and Indian invasion force landed at Tanga Bay to conquer German East Africa; in numerical terms at least they outnumbered Lettow-Vorbeck's available force by some eight to one. Nevertheless, right from the start he demonstrated great tactical planning.

With the Allied landing a success, Lettow-Vorbeck pulled his forces some distance back, not in full retreat as seemed apparent, but simply in order to draw the British and Indian forces further inland, catching them in a crossfire and inflicting heavy casualties, quickly obliging a British retreat back to Tanga Bay to consolidate.

Over the next couple of years Lettow-Vorbeck launched raids into the British colonies of Kenya and Rhodesia, the aim being to destroy forts situated there, along with railway track and carriages. His Askari troops, trained in the Prussian manner, gained in confidence and experience with each successful raid.

Jan Smuts - himself an enemy of the British during the Boer War of 1899-1902, but now serving with them - was tasked in March 1916 with dealing with Lettow-Vorbeck, and in doing so launched an attack from South Africa with a force of 45,000 men. As with the British beforehand, Lettow-Vorbeck led Smuts a merry dance, although curiously this did not subsequently harm Smuts political career in any way.

In 1917 the Allies turned up the heat on Lettow-Vorbeck, with attacks launched from such disparate locations as Kenya, Rhodesia, Congo and Mozambique - the latter two spearheaded by Belgian and Portuguese forces, respectively.

With his forces running low on supplies - both ammunition and food - Lettow-Vorbeck was forced to live off the land, although a successful raid upon a Portuguese arms dump near the Mozambique border largely resolved his arms shortage.

Lettow-Vorbeck launched fresh raids against Rhodesian forts in 1918, tackling one after another. He was in the midst of planning further large raids when news of the 11 November Armistice reached him (from a British prisoner).

Far from beaten, and with a force of some 3,000 men available to him, Lettow-Vorbeck nonetheless decided to surrender to the British on 25 November at Mbaala, Zambia.

Returning to Germany as a national hero (and having been promoted general in the field), Lettow-Vorbeck was likewise admired by his former enemies as a courageous, tenacious and honourable fighter. Once in Germany he immediately joined the Freikorps, and at the head of a brigade successfully crushed Spartacist forces in Hamburg.

Lettow-Vorbeck was however obliged to resign from the army having declared his support for the right-wing Kapp Putsch in 1920.

His memoirs of his wartime experiences were subsequently published (in English translation) as My Reminiscences of East Africa. From May 1929 until July 1930 he served as a deputy in the Reichstag, later unsuccessfully trying to establish a conservative opposition to Hitler.

When Smuts, his former opponent, in the aftermath of the Second World War, heard that Lettow-Vorbeck was living in destitution, he arranged (along with former South African and British officers) for a small pension to be paid to him until his death on 9 March 1964 at the age of 94.

[Hellfish]

Awesome, awesome post. The campaign in German East Africa is the only part of WWI that ever interested me. I remember reading von Lettow-Vorbeck's book when I was 10 - great stuff.

Does anyone know where I might be able to buy prints of the artwork on page 1?

[Yosy]

Moustaches were a hit back then. :)

[Kitsune]

That's nothing, Yosy. Have you seen pictures of the soldiers and officers of the American civilian war? Hairy stuff...

[garoco]

There are some simply amazing images posted of these little known German troops.

If anyone has any images of German and Colonial in New Guinea during 1914 I'd REALLY APPRECIATE them being posted up here or emailed to me.

Thanks :D :D

P.S. Most people think the first Aussie troops killed in the First World War happened on 25 April 1915 (ANZAC Day). . . the first Aussie troops to die in the Great War were killed in New Guinea by German and Colonial troops on the Bitipaka Road (New Britain - near Rabaul) in late 1914, almost SIX MONTHS BEFORE GALLIPOLI.

-

[hughdotoh]

I'm sold. Where do I join?

[RS_Leo1A5]

Schutztruppen referes to our colonial troops. [...] Today we call Bundeswehr soldiers an UNO or Nato missions (ISAF, KFOR...) Schutztruppen.
BTW, Schutztruppe means "protection force" or "protective force" in English.

[Rantanplan]

*no more pics here*

[vryhpyammoadded]

Great thread! Keep it up. I love this era.

[ex1cdo]

That's nothing, Yosy. Have you seen pictures of the soldiers and officers of the American civilian war? Hairy stuff...

Not to mention the Crimean War....

[Rantanplan]

*no more pics here*

[afrographX]

WHAT THE ****??!?! two sides about the heroic German colonial troops but no word about the babaric war they fought? I as German am ashamed of this period of German history! what about the herero?

Lothar von Trotha was a war criminal

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/3/39/Herero.jpg


I've been a tourist to Namibia, in 1991. The German-whites occupy the good jobs, from doctor to craftsman or baker. The Blacks are merely helping hands, and they never had a chance at education. Some German-whites fought with the SWAPO, but the overwhelming majority didn't. Instead they considered -- and still consider -- Blacks to be inferior.

They had their own high school, but without black students because a necessary entry qualification was fluency in the German language (otherwise students couldn't follow the lessons). There is also at least one newspaper published in German there.

They are pure racists. They don't regret anything and they even don't mind that they destabilize the sociological structure of Namibia. I've heard old Nazi songs and many elder Germans there still admire Hitler.

http://www.unknownnews.net/040202a-s.html


The tribe Germany
wants to forget

In the small, dusty graveyard of Usakos, Adelheid Tjijorokisa-Ndjavera points to headstones marking the graves of her family.

The impressive headstone of Karl-Heinrich Knaeble, born in Oberndorf, Bavaria, and the modest cross of Klara Kozeri Muukua, pla ce of birth unstated, face each other over what used to be the great colonial divide, a rusty barbed-wire fence, that has collapsed allowing both her grandparents to rest within the same place of peace.

"We know the white side of the families here in Na mibia," she says, a frown creasing her light olive complexion. "But they don't want to know anything about us. The local German community is very hostile to us."

An outspoken activist for Herero rights, she is not surprised by this attitude. After all, about two-thirds of her people were killed in Herero uprisings between 1887 and 1907.

The Hereros' quest for reparations from the German government cuts to the heart of the burning land question in Namibia. Unlike the politically dominant Owambo people - who are well-represented in the ruling South West African Peoples Organisation (Swapo) - the Hereros lost most of their grazing areas, now occupied by prosperous white farmers, many of them third-generation German Namibians.

This became a painful political reality for German President Dr Roman Herzog, who visited Namibia last week and is currently in South Africa.

Tjijorokisa-Ndjavera was born of the stolen love between Knaeble and Muukua. But for most of the Herero women subjected to ****** union with German colonials, she asserts, their experience was one of humiliation. "What could they do? All the men were killed, all the land stolen from us and all our cattle either dead or confiscated. They became *** slaves to just survive."

The German colonial policy of divide and rule saw governor Theodore Leutwein in 1894 recognise Samuel Maherero, fond of drink and ****e to selling other people's land, rather than the more traditional Asas Rirua, as successor to Chief Tjamuaha of the Here ros.

The first Herero uprising on March 14 1897 failed, but seven years later, Samuel Maherero, sobered by the land-grabbing of the Germans, rose with his people at Okahandja in May 1904, killing every German farmer and trader they could and seizing 25 000 hea d of cattle.

The reprisals came slowly at first, but increased in swiftness and brutality. Leutwein wanted to preserve the Hereros as a pool of labour. But as German losses mounted, the colonial office of Prince Otto von Bismarck dispatched Lieutant-Ge neral Lothar von Trotha. He delivered quick results with such brutality that Leutwein resigned in protest.

The defeated Hereros fled into the eastern Omaheke desert. But Von Trotha wanted to make an example of them - nothing but annihilation would do.< p>Offering huge bounties for the heads of Maherero and his captains, Von Trotha issued his infamous extermination order on October 2 1904. He warned: "Every Herero found within German borders, with or without guns, with or without livestock, will be shot. I will not give shelter to any Herero women or children. They must return to their people, or they will be shot."

The Herero uprising came to an end soon after this, although mop-up operations continued until 1907. Only a few hundred survived; many mor e were shot as Germans pursued them from waterhole to waterhole.

Thousands of men gave themselves up and were locked in concentration camps in central Namibia and along the coast, where death came more slowly in the form of smallpox, typhus and tubercul osis.

Tjijorokisa-Ndjavera says many Herero women were forced into ****** serfdom as their men died in their thousands. But what grieves her and fellow Herero activist Professor Mberumba Kerina most is that the colonial tactic of divide and rule has be en adopted by the Swapo government and its German aid donors.

When the Hereros tried handing a petition to Herzog at a state banquet last week, the rival Swapo-aligned Mbanderu faction quickly handed up their own petition.

Kerina says Herzog is willi ng to discuss the issue. "Up to now, our experience has been simply of a frozen ocean between us and the German government." But Herzog said too much time has passed for a formal apology to the Hereros to make sense.

He argued that no international leg islation existed at the time under which ethnic minorities could get reparations. Kerina disagrees: under the Fourth Hague Convention of 1899, he says, reprisals against civilians on the losing side were outlawed.

Newspapers last week reported that Herz og was prepared to apologise to the Herero people. But it now seems he may have been misinterpreted - literally. Last weekend, Herzog blamed the furore about German-medium education on an incorrect translation - then publicly fired his translator Christo pher Hain at a press conference when Hain faltered in translating this.

It's too bad a German president did not do the same with Lothar von Trotha.

-- Mail&Guardian, March 13, 1998.

http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~anthro/courses/306/herero.html


Samuel Maherero
http://www.lexi-tv.de/pix/Begriffstextbild/1180_664_Haupt.jpg

Execution of African POWs!
http://www.blackandwhite-schwarzundweiss.de/mediac/400_0/media/herero.jpg

http://www.altearmee.de/herero/herero1.jpg

http://www.altearmee.de/herero/herero2.jpg

[LeMat]

http://www.altearmee.de/herero/herero1.jpg

Just like Auschwitz.

Why?

[tsuri]

Just like Auschwitz.
No Auschwitz is a town(Auschwitz citizens are pretty pissed if you use that construction because they did not build the camp. it just got the name) .If you mean the holocaust:

The Holocaust was not sanctioned by the german government, the herero war was. When they heard what was going on, the Reichstag was furios and called Trotha back.

Second the Holocaust was Industrialized Mass Killing, whereas the Herero died in the Desert because of german military failures. They were not supposed to end up in the desert and die.

And third. The herero war, sad as it is, was not extraordinarily different from treatment of colonies that European Nations had during that time.

[LeMat]

I don't think if it was importand for victims. They were murdered in terrible way. Just because Germans wanted more Lebensraum.

[Rantanplan]

What a nonsense. He219, could you please lock this thread.

[tluassa]

The African Tribes never managed to sucessfully cope with the German military , in 1904 300 Owambo Warriors attacked Fort Namuntoni in Namibia and were shot by 8 German Soldiers stationed there ...

http://www.leitol.de/Reisen/Sudafrika_2001/Nam8.JPG

http://www.namib.de/bilder/norden/namutoni_tafel.jpg


The Herero rebelled and attacked German outposts in the Area ...

After a battle with the Schutztruppe they were driven into the Desert where most of them starved ... From todays view it was something like a war criminal but back then it was common and it is even today in some parts of the world. (look at Sudan ...)

[Wodan]

And third. The herero war, sad as it is, was not extraordinarily different from treatment of colonies that European Nations had during that time.

but,. tsuri you for got, we are german, and

german = pure evil

no matter how much worse the others were on any topic, we are the evil guys... but you know, I care **** on any bastard that says this...

btw. in what IRC channels are you at the moment around? :)

[Wodan]

I don't think if it was importand for victims. They were murdered in terrible way. Just because Germans wanted more Lebensraum.
express your anti german crap to someone who cares about it...

(your farmer friends)

[Wodan]

WHAT THE f***??!?! two sides about the heroic German colonial troops but no word about the babaric war they fought? I as German am ashamed of this period of German history! what about the herero?

Lothar von Trotha was a war criminal


typical german faggots...


other countrys did 50x more of such things, and didnt even think that its wrong, and the motherland didnt even care about it, but as we are german, everything has to be sooo bad and the evilst ever


why you dont just piss off?

:D

[Luno]

WHAT THE f***??!?! two sides about the heroic German colonial troops but no word about the babaric war they fought? I as German am ashamed of this period of German history! what about the herero?

Lothar von Trotha was a war criminal


typical german faggots...


other countrys did 50x more of such things, and didnt even think that its wrong, and the motherland didnt even care about it, but as we are german, everything has to be sooo bad and the evilst ever


why you dont just piss off?

:D

You are a strange person wodan and we al know that you think that German war crimes are boring ,

[Wodan]

I've been a tourist to Namibia, in 1991. The German-whites occupy the good jobs, from doctor to craftsman or baker. The Blacks are merely helping hands, and they never had a chance at education. Some German-whites fought with the SWAPO, but the overwhelming majority didn't. Instead they considered -- and still consider -- Blacks to be inferior.

They had their own high school, but without black students because a necessary entry qualification was fluency in the German language (otherwise students couldn't follow the lessons). There is also at least one newspaper published in German there.

They are pure racists. They don't regret anything and they even don't mind that they destabilize the sociological structure of Namibia. I've heard old Nazi songs and many elder Germans there still admire Hitler.

you just tell lies to give germany a bad reputation, and:

1. @german newspaper, its the Allgemeine Zeitung, and it isnt right, and you think that in germany minoritys shouldnt be allowed to have their own newspapers? Then YOU AREA F*CKING NAZI

2. @german school, of course there are mostly germans, as the schools language is german, in many countries there are german-only schools, like the USA, at the german embassy in china, ..... again: minoritys are criminals if they are german, and if they are from another decendant, the majority are the criminals...

3. @german whites occupy good jobs, so you say germans shouldnt be allowed to have good jobs, and they should be taken away and given to blacks? Cool, then look what happens in some other african countrys where such racistical stuff happens....

4. @consider blacks to be inferior, ok, you show me now the survey that says, that most white german-decendant citizens of namibia consider blacks as inferior

5. @pure racists: what does this show, tell me the survey, that they are all (as you said), or just even the majority of them are racistic

6. @destabilize social structure, how do they do this, what exactly do they do?

7. Many elders admire hitler, which do this, tell me their names, where do you know them from, and how can you know that those are more than the ones in germany/japan/iran.... who admire hitler

8. which songs did they sing, why are those nazi songs, whats wrong with singing traditional songs?

[Wodan]

WHAT THE f***??!?! two sides about the heroic German colonial troops but no word about the babaric war they fought? I as German am ashamed of this period of German history! what about the herero?

Lothar von Trotha was a war criminal


typical german faggots...


other countrys did 50x more of such things, and didnt even think that its wrong, and the motherland didnt even care about it, but as we are german, everything has to be sooo bad and the evilst ever


why you dont just piss off?

:D

You are a strange person wodan and we al know that you think that German war crimes are boring ,

I know that you just want to be against me, and dont care about the topic, but so what, I will answer you:

The problem for me is, that german crimes are shown over-proportionally, in comparement to others, if german troopers kill 5 civilians, while british ones kill 20, the german murdering, will be always mentioned, while the british will be kept as almost a secret, and when a german or anybody else says "but look, the british did in a similar situation, the same and killed on this even more", at this moment, you will hear "you shall not compare murderings", but by saying the german murderings are the worst (and this is done often), you do exactly the same, the only difference is, your argument for those crimes were the worst isnt, that there were more people killed, or that it was done more brutally, but just, that they were germans, and so they are the bad guys, the evil ones, the ones that are guilty, if a german soldier gets attacked by a terrorist, the medias would at first ask, if it was a murdering on civilians, if the german defends himself...

[Wodan]

I as German am ashamed of this period of German history!

well, nothing special, being ashamed for everything is chique in germany...

[afrographX]

I've been a tourist to Namibia, in 1991. The German-whites occupy the good jobs, from doctor to craftsman or baker. The Blacks are merely helping hands, and they never had a chance at education. Some German-whites fought with the SWAPO, but the overwhelming majority didn't. Instead they considered -- and still consider -- Blacks to be inferior.

They had their own high school, but without black students because a necessary entry qualification was fluency in the German language (otherwise students couldn't follow the lessons). There is also at least one newspaper published in German there.

They are pure racists. They don't regret anything and they even don't mind that they destabilize the sociological structure of Namibia. I've heard old Nazi songs and many elder Germans there still admire Hitler.

you just tell lies to give germany a bad reputation, and:

1. @german newspaper, its the Allgemeine Zeitung, and it isnt right, and you think that in germany minoritys shouldnt be allowed to have their own newspapers? Then YOU AREA F*CKING NAZI

2. @german school, of course there are mostly germans, as the schools language is german, in many countries there are german-only schools, like the USA, at the german embassy in china, ..... again: minoritys are criminals if they are german, and if they are from another decendant, the majority are the criminals...

3. @german whites occupy good jobs, so you say germans shouldnt be allowed to have good jobs, and they should be taken away and given to blacks? Cool, then look what happens in some other african countrys where such racistical stuff happens....

4. @consider blacks to be inferior, ok, you show me now the survey that says, that most white german-decendant citizens of namibia consider blacks as inferior

5. @pure racists: what does this show, tell me the survey, that they are all (as you said), or just even the majority of them are racistic

6. @destabilize social structure, how do they do this, what exactly do they do?

7. Many elders admire hitler, which do this, tell me their names, where do you know them from, and how can you know that those are more than the ones in germany/japan/iran.... who admire hitler

8. which songs did they sing, why are those nazi songs, whats wrong with singing traditional songs?

lol you are really weird

so you think we shouldn't be ashamed of the dark sides of our history because the others were much more evil?

[weissent]

We Germans are already maxed out in regard of being ashamed for ww2 p-)
It is quite hard to muster more shame, but we'll try, so help me God :hug:

[Wodan]

I've been a tourist to Namibia, in 1991. The German-whites occupy the good jobs, from doctor to craftsman or baker. The Blacks are merely helping hands, and they never had a chance at education. Some German-whites fought with the SWAPO, but the overwhelming majority didn't. Instead they considered -- and still consider -- Blacks to be inferior.

They had their own high school, but without black students because a necessary entry qualification was fluency in the German language (otherwise students couldn't follow the lessons). There is also at least one newspaper published in German there.

They are pure racists. They don't regret anything and they even don't mind that they destabilize the sociological structure of Namibia. I've heard old Nazi songs and many elder Germans there still admire Hitler.

you just tell lies to give germany a bad reputation, and:

1. @german newspaper, its the Allgemeine Zeitung, and it isnt right, and you think that in germany minoritys shouldnt be allowed to have their own newspapers? Then YOU AREA F*CKING NAZI

2. @german school, of course there are mostly germans, as the schools language is german, in many countries there are german-only schools, like the USA, at the german embassy in china, ..... again: minoritys are criminals if they are german, and if they are from another decendant, the majority are the criminals...

3. @german whites occupy good jobs, so you say germans shouldnt be allowed to have good jobs, and they should be taken away and given to blacks? Cool, then look what happens in some other african countrys where such racistical stuff happens....

4. @consider blacks to be inferior, ok, you show me now the survey that says, that most white german-decendant citizens of namibia consider blacks as inferior

5. @pure racists: what does this show, tell me the survey, that they are all (as you said), or just even the majority of them are racistic

6. @destabilize social structure, how do they do this, what exactly do they do?

7. Many elders admire hitler, which do this, tell me their names, where do you know them from, and how can you know that those are more than the ones in germany/japan/iran.... who admire hitler

8. which songs did they sing, why are those nazi songs, whats wrong with singing traditional songs?

lol you are really weird

so you think we shouldn't be ashamed of the dark sides of our history because the others were much more evil?

have you just read it??

I wrote about the things you said about nowadays germans in Namibia!

So the german users here have to be ashamed for a thing, they dont even know its true????

You are really sick,

as it seems you dont feel linked to your country, if its in a positive way, why are so often people who say its not possible to be proud of a nation, are able to be ashamed for it, I mean either you are able for both, you are proud of the positive sides, and ashamed of the negative ones, or you are neither and nor...

[Wodan]

We Germans are already maxed out in regard of being ashamed for ww2 p-)
It is quite hard to muster more shame, but we'll try, so help me God :hug:

why do you want to try to feel ashamed?

and for what?

[LeMat]

@Wodan

Being member of some nation means not only to be proud of your good moments in the history but it means also to be sorry for bad thing your nation did. And if you want to be good man you should say "we made a lot good things and we are proud of it but we also made a lot of bad things and we are sorry of it".

I have nothing against Germans, Russians, Jews and other people. I look if you are good person and what do you think - what is inside your mind not where were you born, what god do you believe or what is your language.

[Wodan]

@Wodan

Being member of some nation means not only to be proud of your good moments in the history but it means also to be sorry for bad thing your nation did. And if you want to be good man you should say "we made a lot good things and we are proud of it but we also made a lot of bad things and we are sorry of it".

Exactly, the problem is, people like Afro, always just try to show the worst sides of their countrys, and that pisses me really!

(even if it sometimes doesnt look like this, I think its fvcking crap what happend, my country did so many bad things, I wont want to happen again, but I am pissed if always my country is seen as having more bad sides than others, and less good, while its not true...)



I have nothing against Germans, Russians, Jews and other people.
I look if you are good person and what do you think - what is inside your mind not where were you born, what god do you believe or what is your language.

and so?

[weissent]

We Germans are already maxed out in regard of being ashamed for ww2 p-)
It is quite hard to muster more shame, but we'll try, so help me God :hug:

why do you want to try to feel ashamed?

and for what?

I clearly marked the post as not to be taken too seriousl.

Nevertheless, LeMat has a point. Being a member of a certain society you have to accept the heritage that it poses on you. It would be retarded to be proud of geniuses like Einstein without recognizing the reasons why he left Germany and joined the Allied war-efford. We Germans should be careful not to come across as total ****s when we post in international forums. And that has absolutely nothing to do with being ashamed of anything, but simple common sense.

Reg. Herero claims:
Hmm, wait a minute, the war happened during the Kaiserreich, after that we got the Weimarer Republik, then the 3rd Reich, now the Bundesrepublik... Four different systems of government and ~100years later; if the Herero get their reperations granted by an international court of sorts (not a legal person, me), let's sue France for the Napoleonic Wars. 200yrs ago, but what the hell, we really suffered under the French troops. Or under the Swedish during the Thirty-Years War. And the Polish should sue Rome, cause technically the Teutonic Knights Order was a part of the big umbrella-organisation called Vatikan...

[Wodan]

evertheless, LeMat has a point. Being a member of a certain society you have to accept the heritage that it poses on you. It would be retarded to be proud of geniuses like Einstein without recognizing the reasons why he left Germany and joined the Allied war-efford. We Germans should be careful not to come across as total ****s when we post in international forums. And that has absolutely nothing to do with being ashamed of anything, but simple common sense.

heck, thats exactly what I am speaking about, the thing is just that its otherwise, the germans always feel ashamed for anything, but never see the positive sides, thats like this bastard Joschka Fischer, he says he is ashamed for the things that happend in WW II, but never says that he is proud of anything thats german... (same for most lefties)


@Herero claims:

Schröder said last year, that there wont be any reperations..

[Wodan]

Another problem for me is how many people always see germans as the bad ones, in any happening, here, for the german members another view of the happenings (from another person that Afro..):




Der Vorwurf des "systematischen Landraubes" ist falsch. Bereits in der Legislaturperiode 1893/1894 befaßte sich der Reichstag mit der Grund- und Bodenfrage der Eingeborenen im Schutzgebiet. Nach vielen Jahren und zahlreichen Vorstößen, es galt, die Interessen der Missionen, der Siedler, der Regierung und der Nama und Herero zu berücksichtigen, wurde schon 1897 das erste für die Nama zu reservierende Territorium unter Mitwirkung der Rheinischen Mission in einer Größe von 120000 Hektar vertraglich geregelt. Bei den Herero gestaltete sich die Lage schwieriger. Einmal verschleuderte der Herero-Kapitän Samuel Maherero hemmungslos Stammesland an deutsche Siedler, um seinen aufwendigen Lebensstil zu wahren. Zum anderen sollten Ländereien bestimmt werden, die von den Hererokapitänen nicht mehr veräußert werden durften, während übriges Stammesland verkauft werden durfte, aber keineswegs verkauft werden mußte. Hier ergaben sich Mißverständnisse, die mit zum Aufstand von 1904 führten. So konnten diese Regelungen, die auch das ethnische Problem des Zusammenlebens zwischen Eingeborenen und Europäern gelöst hätten, nicht mehr beschlossen werden.

Der damalige "Aufstand war vorhersehbar". Die ohnehin schwache deutsche Schutztruppe war fast vollzählig im Süden des Landes im Einsatz. Nur geringe Truppenteile waren im Norden verblieben. Innerhalb weniger Stunden ermordeten die Herero 123 Siedler, darunter fünf Frauen. Die Nachrichten der Bezirksämter vor dem Aufstand an das Gouvernement in Windhoek ließen auf keine verdächtigen Aktivitäten schließen.

Der "Sieg am Waterberg" am 11. August 1904: Der Befehlshaber der deutschen Schutztruppe, Generalleutnant von Trotha, wollte am Waterberg eine Kesselschlacht gegen die Herero schlagen. Die hervorragend bewaffneten Eingeborenen konnten jedoch den Kessel sprengen und nach Osten fliehen. Der Sieg war eine Niederlage, die der General durch starke Worte zu vertuschen suchte, was Hauptmann Franke, einer der erfahrensten Offiziere der Schutztruppe, in seinem Tagebuch (Bundesarchiv Nachlaß Franke 3. Tagebuch) dramatisch bestätigt. In dem Beitrag wird behauptet, daß 65 000 der 80 000 Herero durch die kaiserliche Schutztruppe starben. Diese Behauptung ist unzutreffend. Sie wurde erstmals in dem "Report on the Natives of South West Africa and their treatment by Germany" 1918 aufgestellt. Das später als "Blaubuch"" bekannte Werk wurde bereits 1926 von der südafrikanischen Mandatsverwaltung für Südwestafrika als Propagandawerk beurteilt. Auf Grund anerkannter ethnologischer Vergleiche konnte in den siebziger Jahren nachgewiesen werden, daß im Lande nicht etwa 80 000 Herero, sondern höchstens 40 000 Herero mit ihren Frauen und Kindern lebten.

Zum "Vernichtungsbefehl": Wer Aufnahmelager für Gefangene vorbereitet, plant nach menschlichem Ermessen keinen Völkermord. Der von der F.A.Z. zitierte Befehl liegt nicht im Original vor. Es gibt eine nicht beglaubigte Abschrift, die aus Archiven des ehemaligen britischen Kolonialgebietes Betschuanaland (heute Botswana) stammt. Ob der Wortlaut des Befehls richtig wiedergegeben ist, bedarf wissenschaftlicher Überprüfung. Darüber hinaus wurde das Dokument von Conrad Rust in "Krieg und Frieden im Hereroland", Berlin 1905, Seite 385, abgedruckt. Der vormals in der DDR arbeitende Historiker Horst Drechsler gibt in seinem Buch den "Vorwärts" als Quelle an. Daß es einen Befehl gab, ist unbestritten. Er wurde von Kaiser Wilhelm II. auf Drängen des Reichskanzlers am 8. Dezember 1904 kassiert. Zur Ausführung kam dieser Befehl jedoch, wie Zeitzeugen berichten, nicht. Ein unverdächtiger Zeuge, Oberst Deimling, der am Waterberg eine Abteilung führte, nach dem Ersten Weltkrieg sich zum Pazifismus bekannte und der Deutschen Friedensgesellschaft vorstand, schreibt in seinen Erinnerungen "Zwischen alter und neuer Zeit", Berlin 1930, Seite 69: "Tausende (Herero) ... haben sich ergeben und wurden in den Etappenorten zu Arbeiten verwendet... Unsere Leute haben sich den Herero gegenüber immer unendlich geduldig gezeigt, obwohl sie durch ihre bestialische Roheit gegen Gefangene und Verwundete erbittert waren."

Aus heutiger Sicht macht man es sich häufig leicht, die Epoche des Imperialismus, in den alle Großmächte der damaligen Welt verstrickt waren, zu verurteilen.