Vietnam - How America Was Humbled

[Oddball]

Tanks, bombs and bicycles: how America was humbled

Three decades after the North Vietnamese rolled into Saigon, Colin Smith, who was there for The Observer, recalls the tumultuous last days of the war in south east Asia and the chaos of the evacuation

Sunday April 24, 2005
The Observer


http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1468990,00.html

[callous]

Oh cool woot another unbiased article from the Guardian woot

[Roger Rabbit]

By the time of the fall of Saigon, 'the grunts' of the US infantry (so called because they became so disgruntled)
Really?

[Para]

I think we should get things into prospective here, the American Forces where not defeated or humbled they did not yield an inch of ground unlike the French. The American Government lost the war on the home front, the people where more interested in their standard of living rather than what there troops where going through.

[Zerodivider]

I think we should get things into prospective here, the American Forces where not defeated or humbled they did not yield an inch of ground unlike the French. The American Government lost the war on the home front, the people where more interested in their standard of living rather than what there troops where going through.

Hmm... reminds me a bit of this (no offence):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolchsto%DFlegende

[Para]

My point was that American Forces were not defeated, and that it was the Government that gave way, and I don't see why the American Forces should carry the blame for this withdrawal.

[Lokos]

Exactly. Just like the Soviets in Afghanistan, the Americans in Vietnam were defeated by politics, not by arms.

Lokos

[Midav]

Exactly. Just like the Soviets in Afghanistan, the Americans in Vietnam were defeated by politics, not by arms.

Lokos

Yup. In the Tommy Franks' book American Soldier he tells the story of when he was in Vietnam during the Tet offensive, he was given authority by his superior to call in artillery strikes. The NVA/VC had occupied several buildings and they were leveled.

A few days later, several people (from the state dept. i believe) wanted to know who had authorized those strikes and Frank's CO was relieved.

It was better to throw in and sacrifice troops, rather than blow up already gutted buildings, because they had been financed by the US government...

There are so many other stories and a shame that the troops that did their job were let down by the politicians. Be it Vietnam or Afghanistan.

[Miles.]

Exactly. Just like the Soviets in Afghanistan, the Americans in Vietnam were defeated by politics, not by arms.

Lokos

Honesty and objectivity transmitted.

Recieved in Texas.

:hug:

[Hawaii_Light]

even though in the long run the withdrawel and ultimate end of the war was caused by the government, you still have to give the NVA some credit, they sure punched pretty hard for a war torn, desease ridden, unequiped military. and ultimatly the low moral along with retributions against the NVA/VC by american soldiers was baisedly shown to the public which eventually caused the down fall of the home front.

so in fact North Veitnam greatly atributed to the withdrawel of american forces and the end of the veitnam conflict.

[Lokos]

The NVA/VC were a very tough and capable enemy for the Americans.

What was it that guy said in 'Full Metal Jacket'? About how they should appreciate every moment in Vietnam because once they'd go home there'd be nobody WORTH shooting? p-)

The persistence of the VC, especially, significantly contributed to the eventual withdrawal of American forces. But, ultimately, the war was lost on the homefront.

Lokos

[Hunterhr]

By the time of the fall of Saigon, 'the grunts' of the US infantry (so called because they became so disgruntled)

That's a brilliant piece of fact checking right there.

:roll:

[11F5S]

GRUNT

Ground Replacement UnTrained

Government Reject Unfit Normal Training

[Midav]

unequiped military

I would call them anything but unequipped. The NVA had artillery. They had tanks. They had rifles. They had thousands of SAM's. They had thousands of pieces of AAA. They had aircraft (in fact, more NVA pilots became aces than US pilots). They had a ground control network and so on and so forth...

They had a very decently equipped military. Was it on par with that of the US military? No. However, what they did have would have been the envy of a lot of countries around the world.

Pardon that I don't distinguish between NVA and NVAF...

[sun_tzu]

Oh Snap!...You take that USA...never mind you bombed us into the stone age, killed millions of our troops and turned our women into a nation of prostitutes. rofl

[Para]

sun_tzu
After passing those comments it is nice to see that you can happily live in America.

[IronCross1985]

this author cant hack it...i think they're a section 8....

[Miles.]

Get the **** off my obstacle! :bash:

Did I hear you say you want a DOR? NO?!?! I think you did, scum!

[M1A2U2]

His solution was simple: step up the bombing, start to withdraw the demoralised, murderous, often near-mutinous US ground troops
quotes like that make me sick. He is calling all the Vietnam vets murderers.
And i agree that we didnt lose the war. We never lost a single battle. We just pulled out in the end.

[pathfinder82]

[quote="Lokos"]The NVA/VC were a very tough and capable enemy for the Americans.


The NVA in paticular were a nightmare for our huge military, when I asked my father how many men he killed in Vietnam when I was a kid, he simply said he didnt know. He said most of the time you just fired into the brush where tracers were coming in from, and that he only saw 2 VC and 1 NVA the whole 4 years he was there, and that was during the tet offensive. He saw plenty dead and captured, but like most infantry he didnt see them during firefights, he said you always knew when you were up against NVA, because the NVA would stay and fight, they would manuever and flank, the VC would cut and run.

[4nzix]

You dudes need to brush up on your history.



When an army retreats, without achieving its goals, THEY LOST THE ****ING WAR!!!!

[Roger Rabbit]

[quote=Lokos]The NVA/VC were a very tough and capable enemy for the Americans.


The NVA in paticular were a nightmare for our huge military, when I asked my father how many men he killed in Vietnam when I was a kid, he simply said he didnt know. He said most of the time you just fired into the brush where tracers were coming in from, and that he only saw 2 VC and 1 NVA the whole 4 years he was there, and that was during the tet offensive. He saw plenty dead and captured, but like most infantry he didnt see them during firefights, he said you always knew when you were up against NVA, because the NVA would stay and fight, they would manuever and flank, the VC would cut and run.

You might find this interview with Gustav Hasford(wrote the Short Timers on which Full Metal Jacket was based. Served in Vietnam as a Marine Correspondant.) http://www.gustavhasford.com/Interview6.htm

The first fiction I wrote was this book, which I started writing when I was in Vietnam, which is why the characters tend to have the names of people that were friends of mine. I'd be sitting around in the squad room and say "hey, who wants to be the drill instructor?" There was this guy called Earl Gerheim, also known as Crazy Earl. Earl says "I will", and so, okay Earl gets to be drill instructor....Where do you get all your ideas? How many people did you kill?
That's the popular one--how many people did you kill? I slaughtered millions of people, all helpless, innocent civilians. I threw them up and cut them down like dogs. Actually, I try to give people an honest answer. They have a conception that war is like John Wayne movies. You walk along, some Japanese soldiers walk out, you say, "hello Japs, eat lead," and shoot them down. In real war, you rarely see the enemy. It's more a question of walking along, somebody starts shooting at you. They shoot over here, you shoot over there. You can't see anything. Later you go over and there are some shot people. You don't know who shot them. Very few people in Vietnam saw someone and shot them. You're holding your rifle, firing over your head, thinking "I hope I don't get shot." You're not really going around taking score. I was under fire about 50 times, but I only saw the enemy once. At Hue, we could see for about 500 yards, and what you saw was these little teeny-tiny ants. You couldn't even tell they were people.
John Wayne was the central mythic figure in Vietnam. He was used in so many ways. He permeated the language. To do John Wayne was to do something senselessly heroic and stupid. If anyone was real gung-ho, we'd call him John Wayne. The name was invoked all over Vietnam. It was almost like a presence, because the mind-set of the people came from watching these old war movies. If there's a machine gun nest, you throw in a grenade and blow it up and get the medal of honor. Well, that's stupid. A lot of young guys come to Vietnam, and before they got an opportunity to adjust to the reality--which is that if you jump up and throw a grenade at a machine gun nest, they're going to shoot you and you'll be dead in a body bag--they would get killed. It worked out better for John Wayne, because he had it in his contract that he'd never get killed.
I don't like most of the Vietnam movies. I liked Apocalypse Now, except for the ending. I really like the character of Colonel Kilgore, played by Robert Duvall, he is really interesting. I didn't like The Deer Hunter, Robert DeNiro playing the bearded version of John Wayne. And how he has a beard in the Green Berets I'll never know. He never shows fear or doubt or any kind of human emotion. He's perfect, which is bull****. You're playing Russian roulette, you're going to be scared to death. They were resurrecting John Wayne so that when we go into Nicaragua kids will say "I wanna be like Robert DeNiro, I'm gonna do all this heroic stuff" and get killed.
It's one thing I worry about with Stanley's film. I worry about people who come out of the film with an idea that war is somehow glamorous and fun and let's go to Nicaragua and blast this communist blob that's taking over the world. It's difficult to deglamorise war even when you know how horrible it is. In movies, it looks so attractive. The rest of the article can be found in the link above.

[Lifeinasmallbox]

His solution was simple: step up the bombing, start to withdraw the demoralised, murderous, often near-mutinous US ground troops
quotes like that make me sick. He is calling all the Vietnam vets murderers.
And i agree that we didnt lose the war. We never lost a single battle. We just pulled out in the end.


are you just looking for someone to talk sh*t to you...my take on that quote was that there were probably some fierce battles and they were blood thirsty and waiting for more...

[nahimov]

His solution was simple: step up the bombing, start to withdraw the demoralised, murderous, often near-mutinous US ground troops
quotes like that make me sick. He is calling all the Vietnam vets murderers.
And i agree that we didnt lose the war. We never lost a single battle. We just pulled out in the end.

Hannibal did not lose a single battle when he attacked Rome. Didn't help him at all to win the war. He lost and was defeated. Vietnam war was lost and more time would not have changed a thing. "You can win a battle but still lose the war".

[1Cie GevGn]

We never lost a single battle.

And all that because people like yourself answerred the call and went serving in remote parts of the world eh?

You're getting sick of people calling Vietnam vets murderers? That's the most hypocrite thing you said yet.

http://www.schube.org/images/liar.jpg

[BadKarma26]

His solution was simple: step up the bombing, start to withdraw the demoralised, murderous, often near-mutinous US ground troops
quotes like that make me sick. He is calling all the Vietnam vets murderers.
And i agree that we didnt lose the war. We never lost a single battle. We just pulled out in the end.

I WAS THERE WITH...THE FRENCH!!! in '53 rofl

[callous]

His solution was simple: step up the bombing, start to withdraw the demoralised, murderous, often near-mutinous US ground troops
quotes like that make me sick. He is calling all the Vietnam vets murderers.
And i agree that we didnt lose the war. We never lost a single battle. We just pulled out in the end.

Hannibal did not lose a single battle when he attacked Rome. Didn't help him at all to win the war. He lost and was defeated. Vietnam war was lost and more time would not have changed a thing. "You can win a battle but still lose the war".

While Hannibal was marching arround Italy. The Romans amassed an Army in Africa to attack Carthage. Hannibal then had to race home with his Army. He LOST the Battle for Carthage. Losing the war against Rome.

The US signed a ceasefire with the north in 1973. In 1975 with out US airsupport the S.Vietnamese Army collapsed under the onslaught of a N. Vietnamese offensive. The US didn't lose the war. The S. Vietnamese did.

[Midav]

His solution was simple: step up the bombing, start to withdraw the demoralised, murderous, often near-mutinous US ground troops
quotes like that make me sick. He is calling all the Vietnam vets murderers.
And i agree that we didnt lose the war. We never lost a single battle. We just pulled out in the end.

Actually, we did lose a couple of battles. Granted, they were minor and would not have changed anything, but some were lost.

The biggest battle lost was the one at home.

Was a messed up war anyway. At the start of it, SAM sites were off limits from being attacked. Permission had to be called in to engage in fire fights at times. Artillery in certain cases was not allowed. LBJ picked targets to be bombed while sitting comfy in the white house and on it goes...

Either fight the war the way it's meant to be fought or don't fight at all.

[Hanism]

The US signed a ceasefire with the north in 1973. In 1975 with out US airsupport the S.Vietnamese Army collapsed under the onslaught of a N. Vietnamese offensive. The US didn't lose the war. The S. Vietnamese did.

I love how you passed the blame to everyone other than the party at fault. Did you conviently forget Kenedy ok the coupe that turned the S. Vietnamese government into an American puppet? So when America pulls out, cutting pratically all the aids to FIGHT the war while the North had China and Russia... you're still blaming the S. Vietnamese government America created for losing it? That's ****ing bull**** America for ya. My family didn't lose brothers, uncles, cousins, fathers, and sons so an armchair general like you with a blind eye for truth can point your filthy fingers at us.

[callous]

The US signed a ceasefire with the north in 1973. In 1975 with out US airsupport the S.Vietnamese Army collapsed under the onslaught of a N. Vietnamese offensive. The US didn't lose the war. The S. Vietnamese did.

I love how you passed the blame to everyone other than the party at fault. Did you conviently forget Kenedy ok the coupe that turned the S. Vietnamese government into an American puppet? So when America pulls out, cutting pratically all the aids to FIGHT the war while the North had China and Russia... you're still blaming the S. Vietnamese government America created for losing it? That's f*** bull**** America for ya. My family didn't lose brothers, uncles, cousins, fathers, and sons so an armchair general like you with a blind eye for truth can point your filthy fingers at us.

In planning a new offensive against the S.Vietnamese. The North thought it would take them 2 years to defeat the south. In less than 2 months the communist flag was flying over Saigon. Just because there was no US soldiers or pilots to fight for them. The arvn collapsed and ran for thier lives.

For ten ****ing years Americans bled and died in that ****ty country. For ten **** ing years US troops fought for thier freedom. Apparently they'd rather be slaves than free.

So **** you. I'll point my filthy lil fingers all day long at those gutless arvn. Chicken **** cowards that dropped thier rifles, abandoned thier armor and sucked up to thier commie masters.

Get F :bash: uck ed

[Hanism]

LOL. That was just about the most ignorant crap I've ever read. Please tell me why America was involved in the first place? It sure as hell wasn't for the goods of Vietnamese I'll tell you that.

And the general publics wonder why so many people around the world hates America... It's not the idea of freedom and liberty they hate. It's the stupid people.

[callous]

We got involved to try and stop the domino effect. While we were there we did all we could to help the vietnamese.

We know why so many people the world hate America. It's because they won't take responsibility for ****. Instead they sit arround and blame America for all thier woes. Crybaby bitches.

[Auzzzie]

I think this thread is deterioating rapidly and the odds are it will end up in a flame war soon, so try to keep it civil. But there are numerous documented cases of american soldiers killing innocents. I am not saying they were the only ones, but a lot of you refuse to accept that fact or, more likely, were never told.

[Ratman]

His solution was simple: step up the bombing, start to withdraw the demoralised, murderous, often near-mutinous US ground troops
quotes like that make me sick. He is calling all the Vietnam vets murderers.
And i agree that we didnt lose the war. We never lost a single battle. We just pulled out in the end.

Actually, we did lose a couple of battles. Granted, they were minor and would not have changed anything, but some were lost.

The biggest battle lost was the one at home.

Was a messed up war anyway. At the start of it, SAM sites were off limits from being attacked. Permission had to be called in to engage in fire fights at times. Artillery in certain cases was not allowed. LBJ picked targets to be bombed while sitting comfy in the white house and on it goes...

Either fight the war the way it's meant to be fought or don't fight at all.

Rather, I think the biggest battle lost was the one with Vietnamese civilians, who were initially against the anti-Communist forces, but turned against the Americans when they (1) lived (or died) thru the destruction and (2) saw that Democracy was not really what the US had planned for them.

As for the article, it's not all bad, although it contains a number of phrase for the rabid anti-American tosser that the Guardian has to cater too as well. That said the Guardian is a great paper, IMO.

[Hanism]

We got involved to try and stop the domino effect. While we were there we did all we could to help the vietnamese.

We know why so many people the world hate America. It's because they won't take responsibility for ****. Instead they sit arround and blame America for all thier woes. Crybaby bitches.

I don't see any domino effect after the North won did you? For your information, the whole communism movement thing back then was directly related to America refusing to lend a helping hand against the French. That bastard Ho Chi Minh then turned to Russia and turned the Viet Minh into the NVA later on.

You are again wrong about people being cry babies. Would you blame your neighboor if you lost your house from of a gambling addiction? I wouldn't and so wouldn't the world. For obvious reason, I will spare you any further enlightenment, since you're obviously on top of things with your 5th grade education.

[Para]

America supplied a vast amount of equipment to the French in the early 1950's to use in French Indo China [Vietnam]. America at this time was trying to keep away from another conflict after a rather bloody encounter in Korea.

[nahimov]

His solution was simple: step up the bombing, start to withdraw the demoralised, murderous, often near-mutinous US ground troops
quotes like that make me sick. He is calling all the Vietnam vets murderers.
And i agree that we didnt lose the war. We never lost a single battle. We just pulled out in the end.

Hannibal did not lose a single battle when he attacked Rome. Didn't help him at all to win the war. He lost and was defeated. Vietnam war was lost and more time would not have changed a thing. "You can win a battle but still lose the war".

While Hannibal was marching arround Italy. The Romans amassed an Army in Africa to attack Carthage. Hannibal then had to race home with his Army. He LOST the Battle for Carthage. Losing the war against Rome.

The US signed a ceasefire with the north in 1973. In 1975 with out US airsupport the S.Vietnamese Army collapsed under the onslaught of a N. Vietnamese offensive. The US didn't lose the war. The S. Vietnamese did.

So he lost his battle at home (just like US). See he took too long to conquer Rome but won all the battles. He still lost the war. Vietnam obviously could not attack US at home but in Vietnam US was stuck just like Hannibal. If you can't achive your objectives long enough you just lose.

[Hanism]

America supplied a vast amount of equipment to the French in the early 1950's to use in French Indo China [Vietnam]. America at this time was trying to keep away from another conflict after a rather bloody encounter in Korea.

I understand that. I also understand Vietnam had no stragetic importance to America's either at the time so even if there wasn't any reason to refuse, I highly doubt America would have helped. Case and point... look at Africa.

Then... because of some anti-communist expansion doctrine, America suddenly become the saviors of Vietnam? Give me a break. Vietnam was a selfish and corrupted war doomed from the start. All it did was to bring fort millions upon millions of casualities for the same tragic outcome. But what do I know right? :roll:

[callous]

March 10, 1975 - The final offensive begins as 25,000 NVA attack Ban Me Thuot located in the Central Highlands.

March 11, 1975 - Ban Me Thuot falls after half of the 4000 South Vietnamese soldiers defending it surrender or desert.

March 13, 1975 - President Thieu decides to abandon the Highlands region and two northern provinces to the NVA. This results in a mass exodus of civilians and soldiers, clogging roads and bringing general chaos. NVA then shell the disorganized retreat which becomes known as "the convoy of tears."

March 18, 1975 - Realizing the South Vietnamese Army is nearing collapse, NVA leaders meet and decide to accelerate their offensive to achieve total victory before May 1.

March 19, 1975 - Quang Tri City falls to NVA.

March 24, 1975 - Tam Ky over-run by NVA.

March 25, 1975 - Hue falls without resistance after a three day siege. South Vietnamese troops now break and run from other threatened areas. Millions of refugees flee south.

March 26, 1975 - Chu Lai is evacuated.

March 28, 1975 - Da Nang is shelled as 35,000 NVA prepare to attack.

March 30, 1975 - Da Nang falls as 100,000 South Vietnamese soldiers surrender after being abandoned by their commanding officers.

March 31, 1975 - NVA begin the 'Ho Chi Minh Campaign,' the final push toward Saigon.

April 9, 1975 - NVA close in on Xuan Loc, 38 miles from Saigon. 40,000 NVA attack the city and for the first time encounter stiff resistance from South Vietnamese troops.

April 20, 1975 - U.S. Ambassador Graham Martin meets with President Thieu and pressures him to resign given the gravity of the situation and the unlikelihood that Thieu could ever negotiate with the Communists.

April 21, 1975 - A bitter, tearful President Thieu resigns during a 90 minute rambling TV speech to the people of South Vietnam. Thieu reads from the letter sent by Nixon in 1972 pledging "severe retaliatory action" if South Vietnam was threatened. Thieu condemns the Paris Peace Accords, Henry Kissinger and the U.S. "The United States has not respected its promises. It is inhumane. It is untrustworthy. It is irresponsible." He is then ushered into exile in Taiwan, aided by the CIA.

April 22, 1975 - Xuan Loc falls to the NVA after a two week battle with South Vietnam's 18th Army Division which inflicted over 5000 NVA casualties and delayed the 'Ho Chi Minh Campaign' for two weeks.

April 23, 1975 - 100,000 NVA soldiers advance on Saigon which is now overflowing with refugees. On this same day, President Ford gives a speech at Tulane University stating the conflict in Vietnam is "a war that is finished as far as America is concerned."

April 27, 1975 - Saigon is encircled. 30,000 South Vietnamese soldiers are inside the city but are leaderless. NVA fire rockets into downtown civilian areas as the city erupts into chaos and widespread looting.

April 28, 1975 - 'Neutralist' General Duong Van "Big" Minh becomes the new president of South Vietnam and appeals for a cease-fire. His appeal is ignored.

April 29, 1975 - NVA shell Tan Son Nhut air base in Saigon, killing two U.S. Marines at the compound gate. Conditions then deteriorate as South Vietnamese civilians loot the air base. President Ford now orders Operation Frequent Wind, the helicopter evacuation of 7000 Americans and South Vietnamese from Saigon, which begins with the radio broadcast of the song "White Christmas" as a pre-arraigned code signal.

At Tan Son Nhut, frantic civilians begin swarming the helicopters. The evacuation is then shifted to the walled-in American embassy, which is secured by U.S. Marines in full combat gear. But the scene there also deteriorates, as thousands of civilians attempt to get into the compound.

Three U.S. aircraft carriers stand by off the coast of Vietnam to handle incoming Americans and South Vietnamese refugees. Many South Vietnamese pilots also land on the carriers, flying American-made helicopters which are then pushed overboard to make room for more arrivals. Filmed footage of the $250,000 choppers being tossed into the sea becomes an enduring image of the war's end.

April 30, 1975 - At 8:35 a.m., the last Americans, ten Marines from the embassy, depart Saigon, concluding the United States presence in Vietnam. North Vietnamese troops pour into Saigon and encounter little resistance. By 11 a.m., the red and blue Viet Cong flag flies from the presidential palace. President Minh broadcasts a message of unconditional surrender. The war is over.

The Communist took overSouth Vietnam then Cambodia and Laos. That's a domino effect retard. Get back on the short bus and get to school.

[Hanism]

OH man... you're hopeless. I bet you spent hours trying researching that timeline for a small leverage to argue on.

I like this the most...

April 21, 1975 - A bitter, tearful President Thieu resigns during a 90 minute rambling TV speech to the people of South Vietnam. Thieu reads from the letter sent by Nixon in 1972 pledging "severe retaliatory action" if South Vietnam was threatened. Thieu condemns the Paris Peace Accords, Henry Kissinger and the U.S. "The United States has not respected its promises. It is inhumane. It is untrustworthy. It is irresponsible." He is then ushered into exile in Taiwan, aided by the CIA.

Armed forces withdrawn. Objectives failed. US lost the war... on both fronts. I'm done. I'm just thankful I have to this ability to argue my points and don't worry about being arrested and executed. Screw you.

[nahimov]

It's all very simple. If ALL the battles are won BUT no real objectives are gained and you continue to fight you gonna lose the war for following reasons:

1. Your countries' will to fight is going to be brought down to a minimal. That means you have to stop fighting and give up your objectives in order to appeal to population at home.
2. Your country goes broke.

In both cases you LOST!!! Not wining is LOSING. But that concept is very hard for some to grasp I guess.

[callous]

OH man... you're hopeless. I bet you spent hours trying researching that timeline for a small leverage to argue on.

I like this the most...

April 21, 1975 - A bitter, tearful President Thieu resigns during a 90 minute rambling TV speech to the people of South Vietnam. Thieu reads from the letter sent by Nixon in 1972 pledging "severe retaliatory action" if South Vietnam was threatened. Thieu condemns the Paris Peace Accords, Henry Kissinger and the U.S. "The United States has not respected its promises. It is inhumane. It is untrustworthy. It is irresponsible." He is then ushered into exile in Taiwan, aided by the CIA.

Armed forces withdrawn. Objectives failed. US lost the war... on both fronts. I'm done. I'm just thankful I have to this ability to argue my points and don't worry about being arrested and executed. Screw you.

We made peace with the North and withdrew our forces. They didn't control the South when US troops were there.

What country do you live in where you can "argue your points and don't worry about being arrested and executed"?

**** off. :fork:

[nahimov]

OH man... you're hopeless. I bet you spent hours trying researching that timeline for a small leverage to argue on.

I like this the most...

April 21, 1975 - A bitter, tearful President Thieu resigns during a 90 minute rambling TV speech to the people of South Vietnam. Thieu reads from the letter sent by Nixon in 1972 pledging "severe retaliatory action" if South Vietnam was threatened. Thieu condemns the Paris Peace Accords, Henry Kissinger and the U.S. "The United States has not respected its promises. It is inhumane. It is untrustworthy. It is irresponsible." He is then ushered into exile in Taiwan, aided by the CIA.

Armed forces withdrawn. Objectives failed. US lost the war... on both fronts. I'm done. I'm just thankful I have to this ability to argue my points and don't worry about being arrested and executed. Screw you.

We made peace with the North and withdrew our forces. They didn't control the South when US troops were there.

What country do you live in where you can "argue your points and don't worry about being arrested and executed"?

f*** off. :fork:

So the objective of US was to "make peace with the North"? Please....
Besides don't act like it was a "surprise" that the North attacked South later. Everyone knew that it was coming.

[callous]

OH man... you're hopeless. I bet you spent hours trying researching that timeline for a small leverage to argue on.

I like this the most...

April 21, 1975 - A bitter, tearful President Thieu resigns during a 90 minute rambling TV speech to the people of South Vietnam. Thieu reads from the letter sent by Nixon in 1972 pledging "severe retaliatory action" if South Vietnam was threatened. Thieu condemns the Paris Peace Accords, Henry Kissinger and the U.S. "The United States has not respected its promises. It is inhumane. It is untrustworthy. It is irresponsible." He is then ushered into exile in Taiwan, aided by the CIA.

Armed forces withdrawn. Objectives failed. US lost the war... on both fronts. I'm done. I'm just thankful I have to this ability to argue my points and don't worry about being arrested and executed. Screw you.

We made peace with the North and withdrew our forces. They didn't control the South when US troops were there.

What country do you live in where you can "argue your points and don't worry about being arrested and executed"?

f*** off. :fork:

So the objective of US was to "make peace with the North"? Please....
Besides don't act like it was a "surprise" that the North attacked South later. Everyone knew that it was coming.

Actually Yes, that was Nxions goal in vietnam (peace with honor). It might not have been Kennedy's or Johnsonn's, but it was Nixons.

Who's acting surprised the North attacked after US troops left?

[Hanism]

Nixon was a dirty crook. He'd promise America to Russia if it would get him elected. :lol:

I keep telling myself I need to stop replying in this thread, but the whole Nixon thing is hard to resist! I'm dying to ask you here... does "peace with honor" meant it was OK to secretly bomb Camobia? (I bet you're going to argue Nixon only meant to bomb the VC and Camobia was simply in the wrong place :backhand: at the wrong time)

[Lokos]

Neither America in Vietnam nor the SU in Afghanistan 'lost'. The word has the wrong inflections to describe what happened. A far better term for it is 'failed'. Both of the nations failed to achieve their objectives in the respective aforementioned countries, because of various reasons, chief amongst which was political and social pressure on the domestic front.

But neither 'lost'.

Regards,
Lokos

[hughdotoh]

GRUNT

Ground Replacement UnTrained

Government Reject Unfit Normal Training

Thought it was because they grunted a lot after all the junk they were required to carry.

Besides, the biggest losers of the war were the NLF/VC: they were used by the NVA as cannon fodder against the yanks.

[Kilgor]

And hasnt vietnam turned out to be the communist paradise it is today.
Vietnam ranks are one of the poorest and most currupt countries in the region.

Hail the revolution !


:|

[DarkAngel]

And hasnt vietnam turned out to be the communist paradise it is today.
Vietnam ranks are one of the poorest and most currupt countries in the region.

Hail the revolution !


:|

Hail indeed. It would very probably have resulted in something different if the US had NOT butted in. I think we all know by now (hindsight, yes) that Ho Chi Minh was a nationalist first, communist second. Vietnam would not have ended up as a pro-US Asian country like S.Korea or Taiwan or Singapore, but it sure wont have been as rabidly anti-US as was feared.

The illusion of the communist bloc being a monolithic entity being directed from Moscow and intent on world domination has already been disproved. Sure, this is hindsight, but so is saying that Vietnam is now "one of the poorest and most currupt countries in the region". Yeah, sure, Saigon sure was a beacon of democracy before it became Ho Chi Minh City. :roll:

[nahimov]

OH man... you're hopeless. I bet you spent hours trying researching that timeline for a small leverage to argue on.

I like this the most...

April 21, 1975 - A bitter, tearful President Thieu resigns during a 90 minute rambling TV speech to the people of South Vietnam. Thieu reads from the letter sent by Nixon in 1972 pledging "severe retaliatory action" if South Vietnam was threatened. Thieu condemns the Paris Peace Accords, Henry Kissinger and the U.S. "The United States has not respected its promises. It is inhumane. It is untrustworthy. It is irresponsible." He is then ushered into exile in Taiwan, aided by the CIA.

Armed forces withdrawn. Objectives failed. US lost the war... on both fronts. I'm done. I'm just thankful I have to this ability to argue my points and don't worry about being arrested and executed. Screw you.

We made peace with the North and withdrew our forces. They didn't control the South when US troops were there.

What country do you live in where you can "argue your points and don't worry about being arrested and executed"?

f*** off. :fork:

So the objective of US was to "make peace with the North"? Please....
Besides don't act like it was a "surprise" that the North attacked South later. Everyone knew that it was coming.

Actually Yes, that was Nxions goal in vietnam (peace with honor). It might not have been Kennedy's or Johnsonn's, but it was Nixons.

Who's acting surprised the North attacked after US troops left?

Nixon understood that the war could not be won and tried to get out as soon as possible. His " peace with honor" is just another way of saying "retreat ASAP".

[Midav]

Nixon also undestood a tad more about war than LBJ did...

The N Vietnamese came back very quickly to the Paris peace talks after Linebacker II.

In the end, yes the US lost the war. However, the soldiers, airmen and marines did their job. It was the politicians, in the end, that let them down.

[Roaming East]

The short sighted and dim among us believe that if you dont totally wipe your enemy from off the face of the planet than you automatically lose whatever war you were in no matter how long you have been disengaged from the conflict. Using that same reasoning one can state that the English and French lost the American Civil War because their 'side' eventually was defeated by the union....bah

[callous]

Cool. The French lost the American Civil War. I knew Americans couldn't loose :lol:

[lrrps]

Don't forget that Thieu fled with several tons of gold in this luggage after cursing the US for leaving south Viet Nam to the communists.
That bastard died a few years ago in the US and I didn't shed a tear for him.
Corruption was one of the reason we lost that war.

[11F5S]

Nixon also undestood a tad more about war than LBJ did...

The N Vietnamese came back very quickly to the Paris peace talks after Linebacker II.

In the end, yes the US lost the war. However, the soldiers, airmen and marines did their job. It was the politicians, in the end, that let them down.

Soldiers win or lose battles, they don't however win or lose wars.

[lrrps]

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[lrrps]

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[California Joe]

"Declare victory and leave": Sen. George Aiken, R-Vt.

That's all they had to do.