So-called Armenian Claims

[Clearday-TRForce]

please read...



John Kossakian the Editorial Director of Asbarez Newspaper replied our e-mail about our rightful thesis on the Armenian Issue. John Kossakian claims that our theses are completely unreal and he adds that in the year 1915, 1.500.000 Armenians were killed including his own family living in Urfa at that time. We answered his e-mail that if he would send the names of his family members whom he claimed to be killed and the exact place where they had lived, we would investigate the issue and we would represent the truth objectively in our web site. Despite our sincere undertakings he did not declare the names and the place by saying he has not got any documents and he only could send us the information after a research. Although we waited for a long time he did not send us anything yet. This proves the untruthfulness of his claims.






From: Editor
To: editor@asbarez.com
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 7:01 AM
Subject: so-called genocide

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am following with regret the articles published in your newspaper about the commemoration of the so-called Armenian genocide. It is completely wrong and irrelevant to say that there was a genocide perpetrated by Ottoman Turkish government against Armenians between 1915-1923 and 1,5 million were murdered.

The Armenian issue can not be described as "genocide" when the description of The United Nations is taken into account. The 19-article 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, states that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law. It defines genocide as any of the acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, including by killing its members; causing them serious bodily or mental harm; deliberately inflicting on a group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

According to this description, we can not talk about a genocide. There is no proof that supports the government planned to destroy the Armenians at all.

Armenian minority has lived in peace and welfare under Turkish rule. According to Dr Andrew Mango, "Their prosperity grew until, by the middle of the 19th century, they became one of the richest communities of the Ottoman empire, prominent not only in trade and professions, but also in the service of state....Armanian nationalism did nor become a political force until after the defeat at the hands of the Russians in 1878. Armenian nationalists aimed at creating an Armenian state in an area which had a predominantly Muslim and largely Turkish population." (Dr. Andrew Mango's speech given on March 15, 2001 at a meeting of the Society for the Promotion of Democratic Principles in Istanbul)

The Armenian problem began during the World War I. Armenians, who were under manipulation of Russia , rebelled against government . As it is mentioned by Prof. Justin McCarthy, Armenian rebels killed Muslims and initiated revenge attacks on Armenians. McCarthy tells that the minorities like the Serbs and Bulgarians rebelled against the Ottoman empire, claiming lands where the majorities were Serbs and Bulgarians. This was not true for Armenians. The lands were overwhelmingly Muslim in population. The only way they could create Armenia was to expel the Muslims. (Prof. McCarthy's speech given on March 15, 2001 at a meeting of the Society for the Promotion of Democratic Principles in Istanbul)

During the World War I, many Turks lost their lives as a result of the Armenian rebels. The government decided to force Armenian rebellists in the Eastern Anotalia to migrate. McCarthy says "... in the light of history and the events of this war, it is true that the Ottomans had obvious reason to fear Armenians, and that forced migration was an age-old tool in the Middle Eastern and Balkan conflicts. It is also true that while its troops were fighting the Russians and Armenians, the Ottoman government could not and did not properly protect the Armenian migrants. Nevertheless,more than 200.000 of the deported Armenians reached Greater Syria and survived." (Prof. McCarthy's speech given on March 15, 2001 at a meeting of the Society for the Promotion of Democratic Principles in Istanbul)

The survivors are an undeniable proof that there was no aim for a "genocide" at all. Also, the Armenians in the Western cities were not included in this mitigation as they were not a threat.

"The genocide allegation is further discredited by Great Britain's unavailing attempt to prove Ottoman officials of war crimes. It occupied Ottoman territory, including Istanbul, under the 1918 Mudros Armistice. Under section 230 of the Treaty of Sevres, Ottoman officials were subject to prosecution for war crimes like genocide. Great Britain had access to Ottoman archives, but found no evidence of Armenian genocide. Scores of Ottoman Turks were detained on Malta, nonetheless, under suspicion of complicity in Armenian massacres or worse. But all were released in 1922 for want of evidence." (Bruce Fein, An Armenian and Muslim Tragedy? Yes! Genocide? No!)

Thus memorializing the 24 APRIL as holocaust day for Armenians can never be helpful for constitution of peace between Turkey and Armenia. I ask you to remember that there are two sides of the history.

I believe you will take this letter into consideration.

Yours sincerely.

For more detailed information, you can reach

"www.armenianterror.com"

Best regards.

Editor

...................................................

----- Original Message -----
From: editor@asbarez.com
To: editor
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: so-called genocide

Dear sir,

Your historic facts are based on fabrications created by the so called historians who are paid by the Turkish government to disrort the historic facts. I feel sorry for your wasted time on researching these books. Justin McCarthy is paid by Turkish sources and this is a established facts.

Second, we the armenians, do not need facts to coprehend that there was a genocide against the Armenian nation. Several members of may family were massacred without any reason. My family comes from Ourfa, a town far away from Armenian territories and Armenians never claimed Ourfa to be among historic Armenian territories. So, why my family was brutally killed? Why my father the only survivor of that massacre was obligated to desert his home and forced to march to Allepo? By the way he was rescued by a Kurd. And, today you deny the identity of the Kurds (language, culture, self-rule). Your goverment massacred the Kurds in 1920s at least on three occasions. I think the massacres has become the second nature of your goverment, be it Ottoman or Kemalist or pro western democracy.

Editor,

The message of your letter is so weak that do not survive the energy emanating from the very nature of our identity, the identity of being the offsprings of Genocide survivors.
You lack both the objective reality and the subjective power of the issue you are trying to discuss. Please, try your luck with Cypriot Greeks. They are not masscared yet ( just few hundred slaughtered) they may be naive enough to believe you.

Thanks

John Kossakian

...................................................

From: Editor
To: asbarez
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 12:49 AM
Subject: Ynt: so-called genocide

Dear John Kossakian,

I received your reply to my e-mail. I feel regret to see that your e-mail contains bogus information about the Armenian issue. You claim that several members of your family living in Urfa were killed . I believe this is completely ridiculous. Still If you insist that these claims are true, then I want you to send me more information about the names of your family living in Urfa at that time and the name of the village that they were living in.

I am waiting for your reply.

Editor

...................................................

----- Original Message -----

From: asbarez
To: editor
Sent:05 June 2001 03:25
Subject:Re: so-called genocide

Editor,

It is people like you, that are obstacle to heal our wounds. Just the simple denial on your side that nothing hapened shows your unwillingness to comprehend the intensity of the Genocide. If I was a Turk born decades after the Genocide, probably I will be in great shock too, but at least I would make the effort to listen to the persecuted side.

By the way, my grandmother from my father's side comes from a small Armenian village next to Urfa called Garmooudj or Karmoudj (one hour walking distance), probably the name is changed by now. My grandfather from my mother side comes from Mush-Sassoun area northeast of Diyarbakeer. He came to Urfa to find a job and married to my grandmother. My other grandfather and grandmother are born in the city itself. If you wish I can send you the old map of the city and show where was my grandfather's house was.

I have listened so much to my grandmother's stories, that practically I can walk in Urfa from our house to the nearby hill caled Til-foodoor (name changed probably) and walk back to the Armenian church in the middle of the city and go to the bazar, which was between the Armenian and Turkish sectors of the city and even to the local public baths where women were allowed to use it daytime and men during the nights. In the summer definetely I was going to walk to the small lake called lake Abraham according to the biblical legends and enjoy the cool weather there.
I visit my virtual Urfa several times a year. That Urfa is the 1915-1922 Urfa. If you are unaware, the survivors of the 1915 massacres of Urfa returned back and stayed there till 1922. With the withdrawl of the French the Armenians left too. They were too afraid to live with the Turks unprotected.

Thanks at least for the time you are spending to challenge the truth. Others are not even bothered with the issue.

John Kossakian

...................................................

----- Original Message -----
From: editor
To: asbarez
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 4:04 AM
Subject: Ynt: so-called genocide

Mr Kossakian,


I received the information you sent me .But I still dont believe what you say is right about a so-called genocide. For that reason I want you to send me the names and official records of your family members you claim to be killed in Urfa at that time.(Full names,date and place of birth,adress of the village etc.)

Editor

...................................................

From: asbarez
To: editor
Sent: June 06, 2001 14:04 AM
Subject: Re: so-called genocide

Are you kidding? My grandmother a survivor of the Genocide, was not able to remember when she was born. You think we can come up with the dates and official documents of the lost ones. After September-October 1915 attack of Jemal Pasha's trops on Urfa the mob looted the Armenian houses. Do you think we can comw up with official figures?
Nevertheless, I will send the names of my immediate family members with approximate date. I have to check my info with my mother's.

John Kossakian

...................................................

----- Original Message -----
From: editor
To: asbarez@earthlink.net
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 1:27 AM
Subject: waiting

John Kossakian,

I am still waiting clear evidence, some documents that proove your claims otherwise I will believe that you are a liar. Its easy to say this was done, that was done but come on proove it.

Editor

...................................................

----- Original Message -----
From: asbarez
To: editor
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: waiting

I will be visiting Aleppo, Syria this August. Why don't you come there and lets us visit Der El Zor, 6 hour drive toward north of Aleppo, close to the Turkish border and see if we can find some proof there.

...................................................

From: editor
To: asbarez@earthlink.net
Sent: June 28, 2001 1:27 AM
Subject: Ynt: waiting

Its easy to say this or that was done. I can also claim similar things without any proof. As I see there is no clear evidence in your hand I will not take your claims into account.

Editor


We know,some countries try to find themselves some "friends" about genocide.Such as Germany,France,USA. Such As France s Algeria,Germany s Jews (6 million jews),USA s Apaches(over 1 million)... ;)...

This site will belong to false Armanian claims.If you have some documents for discussion,I wait u to talk...please do not post irrelevant things.


regards.

[achilles]

Did you have to post this flame bait? ;)

The armenian genocide is an historical fact, recognized by the vast majority of the international community. Consolidated, end of story.

Admit it and try to learn from it. ;)

[fdt]

One sided vs one sided...? Thank You. Wanna clear this up once and for all in trustworthy manner? Create JOINT Turkish-Armenian panel/commission of HISTORIANS (not politicians) and investigate all this in depth... Find the TRUTH. Then release a JOINT report on this... and after apologize each other ... period.

As long as You won't BOTH do such a thing this will be another Serbs vs rest of the World, Russia vs rest of the World, Japan vs rest of the World, China vs rest of the World... and many many more.

[BigBaribal]

Pure revisionism.

What really happened is well described here:

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/

[Clearday-TRForce]

One sided vs one sided...? Thank You. Wanna clear this up once and for all in trustworthy manner? Create JOINT Turkish-Armenian panel/commission of HISTORIANS (not politicians) and investigate all this in depth... Find the TRUTH. Then release a JOINT report on this... and after apologize each other ... period.

As long as You won't BOTH do such a thing this will be another Serbs vs rest of the World, Russia vs rest of the World, Japan vs rest of the World, China vs rest of the World... and many many more.


dear Fdt,

We have just sent some information about creating a joint Turkish-Armenian panel/comission of Historians. But Armenian State couldnt agree.And They dont open their archieves. Our Archieves have opened to all world historians.But Armenian archieves still close...Why dont they open it? and Why Armenians dont agree some commision proposals from Turkish state? We have just given them a chance to make a historians investigation? Our resources opened.



regards

[achilles]

Perhaps you missed this one? (the sarcasm does not address to you Clearday, but to our dear poodle ;) )

Canadian Parliament recognizes Armenian genocide
Last Updated Sun, 25 Apr 2004 16:21:16
OTTAWA - The House of Commons has reversed a long-standing policy and passed a resolution denouncing the Turks for committing genocide against Armenians in 1915.

The vote passed easily, 153-68.

The motion said: "That this House acknowledges the Armenian genocide of 1915 and condemns this act as a crime against humanity." link (http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/04/21/canada/armenia040421)


The French National Assembly has formally recognised as genocide the slaughter of more than a million Armenians living in the Ottoman empire between 1915 and 1917.

Some countries, Russia, Canada, and Turkey's regional rival Greece, have also deemed the slaughter a genocide, but France has now become the first major western European nation to do so link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/102803.stm) .

Australia Recognizes the Armenian Genocide
(http://www.cilicia.com/armo10i_australia.html)

Gee, even you memetia have recognized the following:

Turkey, which recognises only that 300,000 people died, had already warned that such a vote would sour trade and diplomatic relations. link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/102803.stm)

Bah, after all its only 300,000 people, so what genocide are we talking about? Admit it my brother, you killed more people than the Hutus did in Rwanda, 80 years later.

Hey hey...check this out:
Belgium Recognizes the Armenian Genocide
(http://www.cilicia.com/armo10i_belgium.html)

Uruguay Recognizes the Armenian Genocide
(http://www.cilicia.com/armo10i_uruguay.html)

Wow, look at that:
Recognition of Armenian Genocide in USA (http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Recognition_of_Armenian_Genocide_in_USA)

My brother, take a look at other countries that have recognized the Armenian Genocide (http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=International_Recognition_of_Armenian_Genocide)

Hey memeti, if you want to learn more about what your ancestors prouldy did here is a more comprehensive bibliography:

Armenian

A.Hambaryan, S. Stepanyan, "Armenian Genocide" Yerevan, 1995, 69 p.
G. B. Gharibdjanyan, "Taron’s Eagle" Yerevan, 1996, 109 p.
Murad Karapetyan, "The Army of Republic of Armenia 1918-1920", Yerevan, 1996, 138 p.
"Armenian Genocide in Turkey, Illuminated in Bulgarian Diplomatic Documents", Yerevan 1996, 36 p.
Vardan Grigoryan, "The Life Devoted to Armenians", Yerevan 1996, 88 p.
Nikoghos Adonc, "Armenian Question", Yerevan 1996, 244 p.
S.K. Poghosyan, "Western Armenians on the Threshold of Genocide", Yerevan 1997, 70 p.
Vergine Svazlyan "Great Genocide in Western Armenian Legends and Turk-lingual Songs", Yerevan 1997, 31 p.
Ahmed Refik, "Two Committees – Two Decisions" Yerevan 1997, 98 p.
"Armenian Parliament Condemns Armenian Genocide" Yerevan 1997, 40 p.
"Foreigners about Armenian Question and Armenian Genocide", Yerevan 1997, 37 p.
L. Dolukhanyan "Hovhannes Kajaznuni – the Architect" Yerevan 1997, 53 p.
Artem Ohanjanyan, "Year 1915. Irrefutable Facts – Austrian Documents about Armenian Genocide", Yerevan 1997, 238 p.
Artem Ohanjanyan, "Franz Werfel: Forty Days of Musa Dagh", Text of the same name as TV movie, Yerevan 1997, 54 p.
D. A. Spirov, "Dreadful Slaughter of Armenians (1894-1896)", Yerevan 1997, 64 p.
Norair Sarukhanyan, "Armenian Question in Armenian Social-Political Mind and Historical Records", Yerevan 1997, 271 p.
Emil Dilon, "Situation in Turkish-Armenia", Yerevan 1997, 54 p.
Azat Hambaryan, "Armenian Remarkable Historians Series", Yerevan 1997, 54 p.
G. Abajyan, "Reflection of Armenian Genocide in Vahram Papasyan’s Works", Yerevan 1997, 50 p.
G. Emin , "Monologue of Siamanto", Yerevan 1997, 28 p.
Stepan Stepanyan, "Johannes Lepsius and Armenia", Yerevan 1998, 52 p.,
L. Barseghyan, "International Community Condemns Armenian Genocide", Yerevan 1998, 28 p.
"Johannes Lepsius and Armenian People" Digest, Yerevan 1998, 71 p.
V. E. Khodjabekyan, "Employment Problems of the Transitional Period in Armenia", Yerevan 1998, 240 p.
Manya Ghazaryan, "Vardkes Surenyanc and Armenian Genocide", Yerevan 1998, 28 p.
Anna Petrosyan, "The Cry of The Blessed Virgin" Yerevan 1998, 55 p.
Bakhtiyar Hovakimyan, "Armenian Genocide in Armenian Theatre (1895-1995)", Yerevan 1998, 139 p.
N. Sarukhanyan, "Leo and Armenian Question", Yerevan 1998, 23 p.
V. Khachatryan, "Armenia in 15-7 centuries B.C. (Ancient Armenian History)", Yerevan 1998, 159 p.
"Djivani, Recordable Song-book" Composed by Manuk Manukyan, Yerevan 1998, 188 p.
D. Ghasabayan, "Nikomedia and Eastern Thrace 1920-1922", Yerevan 1998, 30 p.
H.Azatyan, "Vital Agreements", Yerevan 1998, 150 p.
Levon Melik-Shahnazaryan, "Azerbaijan Military Crime Against Peaceful Population of Nagorno-Kharabagh", Yerevan 1998, 210 p.
L. Barseghyan "France Publicly Recognizes Armenian Genocide", Yerevan 1998, 133 p.
M. Karapetyan, "Questions of Armenian Genocide of 1915-1916 Years in Armenian Historical Records", Yerevan 1998, 372 p.
M. A. Muradyan "Armenian Genocide and Russian Social-Political Mind", Yerevan 1998, 182 p.
"Discussions in Canadian Parliament of April 1996 about the Condemnation of Armenian Genocide", Responsible Editor L. Barseghyan, Yerevan 1999, 119 p.
"Condemnation of the Armenian Genocide by International Organizations", Composed by L. Barseghyan, Yerevan 1999, 49 p.
L.Barseghyan, "The Armenian Genocide; The Genocide Monument; The Genocide Museum. Guide", Yerevan 1999
"Henry Morgenthau and the Armenian People", Digest, Yerevan 1999, 70 p.
Azat Hambaryan, "Liberation Movements in Western Armenia (1898-1908)", Yerevan 1999, 477 p.
"Questions of Armenian Genocide History and Historical Records, Series", Yerevan 1999, 72 p.
"Losses of the Armenian People Caused by the Armenian Genocide", L. Barseghyan, Yerevan 1999, 13 p.
G. Kacerov, "Armenia and the Armenian Question Before and After the War", Yerevan 1999, 78 p.
I. A. Arabyan, "Genocide and Its Punishability", Yerevan 1999, 92 p.
Dimitr Spirov, "Armenia and Sultan Abdul Hamid", Yerevan 2000, 60 p.
"Condemnation of the Armenian Genocide in British Parliament (1915-1918)", Yerevan 2000, 97 p.
"Discussions of Armenian Genocide in the House of Lords of Great Britain Parliament (14 April 1999)", Yerevan 2000, 43p.
"Tumanyan and Armenian Historical Destiny", composed by L. Shahverdyan, Yerevan 2000, 285p.
Armin Teophil Wegner, "The Way Without Return. Martyrdom in Letters", Yerevan 2000, 143 p.
Anahit Kirakosyan, "Margarita Arami Brutyan, Armenian Remarkable Woman Scientist Biography Matters", Yerevan 2000, 83 p.
Ervand Gasparyan, "France and the Great Genocide (1915-1918)", Yerevan 2000, 309 p.
Russian

"Do not kill! – Armenian Genocide and Russian Poetry 1895-1918", composed by M. D. Amirkhanyan, Yerevan, 1996, 123 p.
Hmayak Martirosyan, "The Great Silk Way and Armenia", Yerevan 1996, 68 p.
Vergine Svazlyan "The Great Genocide in Western Armenian Legends and Turkish-language Songs", Yerevan 1997, 31 p.
G. Avetisyan, "Northern Mesopotamia and Southwestern Areas of the Armenian Plateau", Yerevan 1997
Tunyan V., "Russia and the Armenian Question", 1998, 240 p.
"Armenian Genocide and Russian Publications" Digest under M. D. Amirkhanyan edition, Yerevan 1998, 272 p.
Arsen Avakyan, "Genocide of 1915. Mechanisms of Decision-making and Execution", Yerevan 1999, 110 p.
English

Tessa Hofmann, "Armin Wegner", Yerevan, 1996, 16 p.
Verjine Svazlyan, "The Armenian Genocide in the Memoirs and Turkish Language Songs of the Eye-witness Survivors", Yerevan 1999, 44p.
L.Barseghyan, "The Armenian Genocide; The Genocide Monument; The Genocide Museum", Yerevan 1999, 8 p.

If you promiss not to do it again, we will embrace you in our European genocide-free big happy family.

http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/armenian_genocide_6.jpg
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/armenian_genocide_2.jpg

Enjoy the rest of this fine day my european brother :hug:

[fdt]

Pure revisionism.

What really happened is well described here:

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Noone can tell to what extent it is revisionism or not... as long as the FACTS are established in trustworthy manner. For me this and many other such historical issues are just a playground for politicians who by definition are interested in historical tragedies exploitations for short term political issues.

[fdt]

Dear Achilles got more of such pics that seem to be in violation of the MP rules?

[Clearday-TRForce]

Pure revisionism.

What really happened is well described here:

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Noone can tell to what extent it is revisionism or not... as long as the FACTS are established in trustworthy manner. For me this and many other such historical issues are just a playground for politicians who by definition are interested in historical tragedies exploitations for short term political issues.

fdt, +1
(it s about political issue,how can a govenrment interest in Historical issues?)

achilles,

I m so sorry,but I see some posts from u,And please note it,I will not offense ur personality anytime,I will only post some "documents" here...
and please can u explain me why Armenians dont open their resources,archives to the World? We can easily see Russian archieves,England archieves,Ottoman Archieves but no Armenian Archieves?

And anyone can tell me why do Armenains still live in Turkey? how can still take in state positions in Turkey? how can easily open thier cognizants,hospitals,schools in Turkey?

[Clearday-TRForce]

“The Armenian issue, which aims at meeting the economic interests of the capitalist world rather than bearing in mind the veritable interests of the Armenians themselves was best resolved with the Kars Agreement. The friendly ties between two industrious people coexisting peacefully for centuries have been satisfactorily established anew.”



Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

[fdt]

We can easily see Russian archieves,England archieves...

Please... :roll: Russian and British archives are open? rofl

Our historians were denied to see the British materials concerning the death of general Sikorski in 1943... because top secret clause has been extended by Britons (as the standard period expired).

Russian Procurature, after closing the Katyn investigation, has offered to had over smth like 80 volumes of materials from about 160 volumes collected... Why? For State secrecy rules...

Politicians, politics... :cantbeli:

[Clearday-TRForce]

We can easily see Russian archieves,England archieves...

Please... :roll: Russian and British archives are open? rofl

Our historians were denied to see the British materials concerning the death of general Sikorski in 1943... because top secret clause has been extended by Britons (as the standard period expired).

Russian Procurature, after closing the Katyn investigation, has offered to had over smth like 80 volumes of materials from about 160 volumes collected... Why? For State secrecy rules...

Politicians, politics... :cantbeli:



fdt, sorry I dont know ur issues.But we can achieve to reach some Russian documents from their archieves. And some British...and I again say full of Ottoman Archieves open...Why Armenians closed? vener open? if they right,if their claims right why dont they open theirs? We have lived with Armenian people during 800 years. Why had all these things started in 1915, WW1? We know why? it s a war condition.And some Europe countries and Russians have attracted to Armenians in our soils. They had used Armenians.Europe and Russia achieved to break Turkish Armenians friendship...


politicians,politicians... :-*$


regards.

[BigBaribal]

“The Armenian issue, which aims at meeting the economic interests of the capitalist world rather than bearing in mind the veritable interests of the Armenians themselves was best resolved with the Kars Agreement. The friendly ties between two industrious people coexisting peacefully for centuries have been satisfactorily established anew.”



Mustafa Kemal Atatürk


The great Atatürk (1) was among the few turk patriots who tried to stop the Armenian genocide:


The Turks themselves have confessed in earlier times. Prime Minister Damat Ferid Pasha placed the blame squarely on the Young Turk Party. Mustafa Kemal Pasha {Ataturk} said {in a 1926 interview with a Swiss reporter that} the Young Turks "should be made to account for the lives of millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse from their homes and massacred. . . ."
After the war, the Turks held courts-martial to prosecute and convict the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide. Several were sentenced to death.



http://www.haias.net/historie/genocide_faq_e.html




(1) I have nothing but admiration towards the great Atatürk: I would have no problem with a Turkey in Europe, if Turkey was still under the rule of this great man.




P.S. Btw, for people interested by the story of this genocid, try to find the letter of the US consul in Turkey Leslie Davies who desperately tried to inform his authorities and the world aboud the Armenian genocide. After 1917, even the German ambassador in Turkey protested against these massacres, because Germany began to fear to be accused of complicity with the Turks, if Germany would lose the war.

[Clearday-TRForce]

GENOCIDE, GENOCIDE, GENOCIDE



Zori Balayan, who is known by his chauvinist point of view and ambassador of Great Armenia ideology, blamed Turks with incredible things in his book “Ocag”. He stated that Turks made genocide against Armenians and Armenians would never forget that, also, called all Armenians for revenge.

Balayan, also, mentions about a sort of Armenian sickness: Sickness that is seen in victims of genocide… the psychological status of downtrodden and mistreated Armenians. This is an infectious disease and only valid for Armenians. In the Soviet Union era sickness completed its hidden period and after independency it spread out rapidly among Armenians. Armenians say that the treatment of this sickness can only be possible after the revenge of events on 1915, having Kars, Iğdır, Erzurum, Sivas and Trabzon within Armenia territories and Armenian flag on top of Mountain Ararat, also, it is necessary to do everything to make this treatment.

To achieve this aim they wrote a prescription in which they stated, “gaining international recognition of the Armenian Genocide perpetrated” in the 11th term of Declaration of Independence. Although Levon Ter-Petrosyan, the first President of Armenia (1991-1998), didn’t apply this prescription that much, however, Robert Kocharian personally interested in this subject as soon as he was in power and has been making effort both in domestic and foreign policy for treatment of this “Armenian sickness”.

By the support of Armenian government National Academy of Sciences of Armenia and World Armenian Organization making effort on preparing “Evidence File” regarding so-called Armenian genocide for gaining international recognition. For this purpose World Armenian Organization summon a conference at the hall of National Academy of Sciences of Armenia on the date of May 6 – 7, 2004 named “Factor of Genocide in the issue of normalization of Armenian-Turkish relations”.

There are no political party, non-governmental organization or academician in Armenia that has courage to deny “genocide”. Otherwise, it is impossible for him to be active within territories of Armenia. The leader of the National Democratic Union of Armenia, Vazgen Manukyan, commented on the relations between Turkey and Armenia to İA REGNUM News Agency. Manukyan blamed Turkey with “genocide”, demanded about opening the borders, also, highlighted the importance of propaganda activities regarding international recognition of Armenian genocide. Andranic Migranyan, a well-known Armenian historian, shares the same point of view with him. In the press conference on May 8, 2004 he notified that he didn’t approve the statements of President Robert Kocharian regarding so-called Armenian genocide, which was “For us the recognition of the genocide is important. The demands of land and indemnity are claims of Diaspora not Armenian state.” He particularly emphasized on not to withdraw the claim of recognition of “genocide” by Turkey and the propaganda of “genocide” by Armenian government even if diplomatic relations were established between two states, the border gates were opened and the economic relations improved.

In a period that Armenian government speeds up the work about recognition of so-called genocide, some political and economic circles in Turkey supports the opening of border gates and stressing that such a case would be a pretext for the normalization of relations between two countries. These circles do not take the opponent policy of Armenia towards Turkey into consideration and forget disclaim of Armenia regarding Turkish territorial integrity, demands about recognition of so-called genocide by Turkey, also, land and indemnity demands



regards (u cannot confront history,u cannot change history,u cannot edit history,u cannot delete history,archieves tell us true...)

[achilles]

Dear Achilles got more of such pics that seem to be in violation of the MP rules?

Sure, busloads!


Flaming, trolling and provoking are way more serious violations as far as i am concerned. I havent seen you complaining about those, though ;)

[BigBaribal]

What's worse: historical revisionism or to show victims pics?

Personnally, I prefer the truth to history falsification or genocid denying.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Hovhannes Katchaznouni, The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnagtzoutiun) Has Nothing to Do Anymore, Bucharest 1923, (translated from the original by Matthew A. Callender):
(Mr. Katchaznouni was the first prime minister of the Independent Armenia).

In the beginning of fall 1914, when Turkey had not yet entered the war but was preparing to, Armenian volunteer groups began to be organized with great zeal and pomp in Trans-Caucasia. In spite of the decision taken a few weeks before at the General Committee in Erzurum, the Dashnagtzoutune actively helped the organization of the aforementioned groups and especially arming them against Turkey..There is no point in asking today whether our volunteers should have been in the foreground. Historical events have a logic of their own. In the fall of 1914 Armenian volunteer groups were formed and fought against the Turks. The opposite could not have happened, because for approximately twenty years the Armenian community was fed a certain and inevitable psychology. This state of mind had to manifest itself and it happened.



Philippe de Zara, Mustapha Kemal, Dictateur, Paris 1936:

After having accomplished the minimum of their duty as Ottoman citizens, the Armenians began to encourage the activities of the enemy. Their ambiguous attitude had certainly little to do with loyalty. But which Westerner would have the right to accuse them when traditions taught by Europe made the insubordination of the Sultan's Christian subjects the most sacred of obligations. An insubordination which was often sanctioned by giving autonomy, if not sovereignty. Nevertheless, how can anybody deny that in the opinion of the Turks, according to the law of all the states, the conduct of the Armenians facilitating during the war the task of the adversary, van be recognized as anything but a crime of high treason?..The Armenian committees, divided among themselves for internal issues, were often in agreement to facilitate the advance of the Russian armies; they were attempting to obstruct the retreat of Turkish troops, to stop the convoys of provisions, to form bands of francs!-tireurs. Mass desertions took place in the Eastern provinces; Armenians thus formed many troops officered by Russian officers. Here and there local revolts occurred. The leaders were setting the examples; two Armenian deputies fled to Russia. A literature of hatred was recalled. "Let the Turkish mothers cry..Lets make the Turk taste a little grief". The culpability of Armenians leaves no doubt (page 159).

Stanford J. Shaw, History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey,Cambridge University Press, 1977, Volume II:

Armenians again flooded the czarist armies, and the czar returned to St. Petersburg confident that the day finally had come for him to reach Istanbul. Hostilities were opened by Russians, who pushed across the border on November 1, 1914, though the Ottomans stopped them and pushed them back a few days later. A subsequent Russian counter offensive in January caused the Ottoman army to scatter and the way was prepared for a new Russian push into eastern Anatolia, to be accompanied by an open Armenian revolt against the sultan. Armenian leaders in Russia now declared their open support of the enemy and there seemed no other alternative. It would be impossible to determine which of the Armenians would remain loyal and which would follow the appeals of their leaders. As soon as the spring came, then, in mid-May 1915 orders were issued to evacuate the entire Armenian population from the provinces of Van, Bitlis, and Erzurum, to get them away from all areas where they might under!mine the Ottoman campaigns against Russia or against the British in Egypt, with arrangements made to settle them in towns and camps in the Mosul area of Northern Iraq. In addition, Armenians residing in the countryside (but not in the cities) of the Cilician districts as well as those of north Syria were to be sent to central Syria for the same reason. Specific instructions were issued for the army to protect the Armenians against nomadic attacks and to provide them with sufficient food and other supplies to meet their needs during the march and after they were settled. Warnings were sent to the Ottoman military commanders to make certain that neither the Kurds nor any other Muslims used the situation to gain vengeance for the long years of Armenian terrorism. The Armenians were to be protected and cared for until they returned to their homes after the war (page 315).

Boghos Nubar, Letter to Times of London, dated January 30, 1919:
(Mr. Nubar was the head of the Armenian National Delegation to the Paris Peace Conference held by the victors of the WWI)

The Armenians have been, since the beginning of the war, de facto belligerents - since they fought alongside the Allies on all fronts - in Palestine and Syria, where the Armenian volunteers, recruited by the Armenian National Delegation at the request of the French government, made up more than half of the French contingent. In the Caucasus, where, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Imperial Russian Army, more than 40,000 of their volunteers offered resistance to the Turkish Armies.

Lieutenant Colonel T. Williams (Labour Party M.P.), Parliamentary Debates (Commons), London 25.ii.1924, vol. 170:

The Armenians were very well treated for hundreds of years by the Turks, until Russia, in the first place, started using them as pawns for purely political purposes; they exploited them as Christians, solely as pawns.

3.8 A. H Arslanian, British Wartime Pledges, 1917-1918: The Armenian Case, Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 13, 1978:

British promises to Armenians were exactly like their promises to Arabs in Syria, Palestine and Mesopotamia; they were made with the purpose of encouraging the war efforts of the Armenians, to influence neutral states in favor of England and to excite the separatist tendencies in ethnic minorities under the rule of these neutral states so as to make their enemy, the Ottoman Empire, collapse from the inside (page 522).

Lord Curzon, PRO, FO. 800/151, 6.xii.1921:

I think Armenians know that among the Great Powers, Her Majesty's Government have always been their best friend and most loyal supporters..But you cannot expect this country - or any other one - to choose any area in Turkey, to chase away from there all other races, to increase the Armenian population there under the shadow of British bayonets, and to thus organize a national Armenian existence there with exorbitant taxes to be extracted from the British people. Even the thought of it cannot go beyond being a raw fancy.



regards from True History.(respect history,not politicians in this issue)

[fdt]

Dear Achilles got more of such pics that seem to be in violation of the MP rules?

Sure, busloads!


Flaming, trolling and provoking are way more serious violations as far as i am concerned. I havent seen you complaining about those, though ;)You must have missed couple of my 1500 posts here at MP. What do You think what was my first post in this thread? A protest... This is my way of protesting... :)

[Kontra1]

WOW!!! I see you guys jumped on the thread huh??

Clearday, I don't understand why you even bother to explain this BS.They know that too,but it just serves their purposes better.They know we'll NEVER accept such a BS and they'll use it for not starting the EU accession talks...which serves perfect to our goal :)

Hey...if you guys so humanitarian and peace lovin'... let's see what your comments about the Turks massacared by armenians...oh...sorry I forgot, they're Turks and they just deserve it right :roll:

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/mccarthy-historian-decide.htm


Kontra1

[Clearday-TRForce]

if someone tries to post some "photos" here,I can easily post...And I want u to show me ur evidence with "documents".We have full of documents from Ottomans,British,Russians Archieves.


regards (respect history,not politicians)

[Clearday-TRForce]

Part I:

Nationalists who use history have different goals. They use events from the past as weapons in their nations' battles. They have a purpose -- to triumph for their cause, and they will use anything to succeed in this goal Like other men and women, historians have political goals and ideologies, but a true historian acknowledges his error when the facts do not support his belief. The nationalist apologist never does so The Armenian issue has long been plagued with nationalist studies. This has led to an inconsistent history that ignores the time-tested principles of historical research. Yet when the histories of Turks and Armenians are approached with the normal tools a logical and consistent account results.

Throughout the recent debate on the Armenian genocide question, one statement has characterized those who object to politicians' attempts to write history, "Let the Historians decide." Few of us have specified who we are referring to in that statement. It is now time to do so.

There is a vast difference between history written to defend one-sided nationalist convictions and real accounts of history. History intends to find that the truth is illusive. Historians know they have prejudices that can affect their judgment. They know they never have all the facts. Yet they always try to find the truth, whatever that may be.

Nationalists who use history have a different set of goals. They use events from the past as weapons in their own nation's battles. They have a purpose -- the triumph of their cause -- and they will use anything to succeed in this goal. While a historian tries to collect all the relevant facts and put them together as a coherent picture, the nationalist selects those pieces of history that fit his purpose' ignoring the others.

Like other men and women, historians have political goals and ideologies, but a true historian acknowledges his errors when the facts do not support his belief. The nationalist apologist never does so. If the facts do not fit his theories the nationalist ignores those facts and looks for other ways to make his case. True historians can make intellectual mistakes. Nationalist apologists commit intellectual crimes.

The Armenian issue has long been plagued with nationalist studies. This has led to an inconsistent history that ignores the time-tested principles of historical research. Yet when the histories of Turks and Armenians are approached with the normal tools of history a logical and consistent account results. "Let the historians decide" is a call for historical study like any other historical study, one that looks at all the facts, studies all the opinions, applies historical principles and comes to logical conclusions.

Historians first ask the most basic question. "Was there an Armenia?" Was there a region within the Ottoman Empire where Armenians were a compact majority that might rightfully demand their own state?

To find the answer, historians look to government statistics for population figures, especially to archival statistics, because governments seldom deliberately lie to themselves. They want to know their populations so they can understand them, watch them, conscript them, and, most importantly to a government, tax them. The Ottomans were no different than any other government in this situation. Like other governments they made mistakes, particularly in under-counting women and children. However, this can be corrected using statistical methods. What results is the most accurate possible picture of the number of Ottoman Armenians. By the beginning of World War I Armenians made up only 17 percent of the area they claimed as " Ottoman Armenia," the so called "Six Vilayets." Judging by population figures, there was no Ottoman Armenia. In fact if all the Armenians in the world had come to Eastern Anatolia, they still would not have been a majority there.

Two inferences can be drawn from the relatively small number of Armenians in the Ottoman East: The first is that by themselves, the Armenians of Anatolia would have been no great threat to the Ottoman Empire. Armenian rebels might have disputed civil order but there were too few of them to endanger Ottoman authority. Armenian rebels needed help from outside forces, help that could only be provided by Russia. The second inference is that Armenian nationalists could have created a state that was truly theirs only if they first evicted the Muslims who lived there.

To understand the history of the development of Muslim-Armenian antagonism one must apply historical principles. In applying those principles one can see that the history of Armenians was a history like other histories. Some of that history was naturally unique because of its environment but much of it was strikingly similar to what was seen in other places and times.

1. Most ethnic conflicts develop over a long period. Germans and Poles, Finns and Russians, Hindus and Muslims in the Indian subcontinent, Irish and English, Europeans and Native Americans in North America -- all of these ethnic conflicts unfolded over generations, often over centuries.

2. Until very modern times most mass mortality of ethnic groups was the result of warfare in which there were at least two warring sides.

3. When conflict erupted between nationalist revolutionaries and states it was the revolutionaries who began confrontations. Internal peace was in the interest of settled states. Looked at charitably, states often wished for tranquility for the benefits it gave their citizens. With less charity it can be seen that peace made it easier to collect taxes and use armies to fight foreign enemies, not internal foes. World history demonstrates this too well for examples from other regions to be needed here. In the Ottoman Empire, the examples of the rebellions in Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria demonstrate the truth of this.

On these principles, the histories of Turks and Armenians are no different from other histories. Historical principles applied.

The conflict between Turks and Armenians did indeed develop over a long time. The primary impetus for what was to become the Armenian-Muslim conflict lay in Russian imperial expansion. At the time of Ivan the Terrible, circa the sixteenth century, Russians began a policy of expelling Muslims from lands they had conquered. Over the next three hundred years, Muslims, many of them Turks, were killed or driven out of what today is Ukraine, Crimea and the Caucasus. From the 1770s to the 1850s Russian attacks and Russian laws forced more than 400,000 Crimean Tatars to flee their land. In the Caucasus region, 1.2 million Circassians and Abazians were either expelled or killed by Russians. Of that number, one third died as victims of the mass murder of Muslims that has been mostly ignored. The Tatars, Circassians and Abazians came to the Ottoman Empire. Their presence taught Ottoman Muslims what they could expect from a Russian conquest.



Muslims were massacred and forced into exile




Members of the Armenian minority in the Caucasus began to rebel against Muslim rule and to ally themselves with Russian invaders in the 1790s: Armenian armed units joined the Russians, Armenian spies delivered plans to the Russians. In these wars, Muslims were massacred and forced into exile. Armenians in turn migrated into areas previously held by Muslims, such as Karabakh. This was the beginning of the division of the peoples of the southern Caucasus and eastern Anatolia into two conflicting sides -- the Russian Empire and Armenians on one side, the Muslim Ottoman Empire on the other. Most Armenians and Muslims undoubtedly wanted nothing to do with this conflict, but the events were to force them to take sides.

The 1827 to 1829 wars between Russians, Persians and Ottomans saw the beginning of a great population exchange in the East that was to last until 1920. When the Russians conquered the Erivan Khanete, today the Armenian Republic, the majority of its population was Muslim. Approximately two thirds, 60,000 of these Muslims were forced out of Erivan by Russians. The Russians went on to invade Anatolia, where large numbers of Armenians took up the Russian cause. At the war's end, when the Russians left eastern Anatolia 50 to 90,000 Armenians joined them. They took the place of the exiled Muslims in Erivan and else where, joined by 40,000 Armenians from Iran.

The great population exchange had begun, and mutual distrust between Anatolia's Muslims and the Armenians was the result. The Russians were to invade Anatolia twice more in the nineteenth century, during the Crimean War and the 1877-78 Russo-Turkish War. In both wars significant numbers of Armenians joined the Russians acting as spies and even occupation police.

In Erzurum, for example, British consular officials reported that the Armenian police chief appointed by the Russians and his Armenian force "molested, illtreated, and insulted the Mohammadan population," and that 6,000 Muslim families had been forced to flee the city. When the Russians left part of their conquest at least 25,000 Armenians joined them, fearing the vengeance of the Muslims. The largest migration though was the forced flight of 70,000 Muslims, mainly Turks, from the lands conquered by the Russians and the exodus of Laz in 1882.

By 1900, approximately 1,400,000 Turkish and Caucasian Muslims had been forced out by Russians. One third of those had died, either murdered or victims of starvation and disease. Between 125,000 and 150,000 Armenians emigrated from Ottoman Anatolia to Erivan and other parts of the Russian southern Caucasus.

This was the toll of Russian imperialism. Not only had one-and-a-half million people been exiled or killed, but ethnic peace had been destroyed.

The Muslims had been taught that their neighbors, the Armenians, with whom they had lived for more than 700 years, might once again become their enemies when the Russians next advanced. The Russians had created the two sides that history teaches were to be expected in conflict and mass murder.

The actions of Armenian rebels exacerbated the growing division and mutual fear between Muslims and Armenians of the Ottoman East.

The main Armenian revolutionary organizations were founded in the 1880s and 1890s in the Russian Empire. They were socialist and nationalist in ideology. Terrorism was their weapon of choice. Revolutionaries openly stated that their plan was the same as that which had worked well against the Ottoman Empire in Bulgaria. In Bulgaria rebels had first massacred innocent Muslim villagers. The Ottoman government, occupied with a war against Serbs in Bosnia, depended on the local Turks to defeat the rebels, which they did, but with great losses of life. European newspapers reported Bulgarians deaths, but never Muslim deaths. Europeans did not consider that the deaths were a result of the rebellion, nor the Turk's intention. The Russians invaded ostensibly to save the Christians. The result was the death of 260,000 Turks, 17 percent of the Muslim population of Bulgaria, and the expulsion of a further 34 percent of Turks. The Armenian rebels expected to follow the same plan.

The Armenian rebellion began with the organization of guerilla bands made up of Armenians from both the Russian and Ottoman lands. Arms were smuggled in. Guerillas assassinated Ottoman officials, attacked Muslim villages, and used bombs, the nineteenth century's terrorist's standard weapon. By 1894 the rebels were ready for open revolution. Revolts broke out in Samsun, Zeytun, Van and elsewhere in 1894 and 1895. As in Bulgaria they began with the murder of innocent civilians. The leader of the Zeytun rebellion said his forces had killed 20,000 Muslims. As in Bulgaria the Muslims retaliated. In Van for example 400 Muslims and 1,700 Armenians died. Further rebellions followed. In Adana in 1909 the Armenian revolt turned out very badly for both the rebels and the innocent when the government lost control and 17,000 to 20,000 died, mostly Armenians. Throughout the revolts and especially in 1894 and 1897 the Armenians deliberately attacked Kurdish tribesmen, knowing that it was from them that great vengeance was not that likely to be expected. Pitched battles between Kurds and Armenians resulted.

But it all went wrong for the Armenian rebels. They had followed the Bulgarian plan, killing Muslims and initiating revenge attacks on Armenians. Their own people had suffered most. Yet the Russians and Europeans they depended upon did not intervene. European politics and internal problems stayed the Russian hand.

What were the Armenian rebels trying to create? When Serbs and Bulgarians rebelled against the Ottoman Empire they claimed lands where the majorities were Serbs or Bulgarians. They expelled Turks and other Muslims from their lands, but these Muslims had not been a majority. This was not true for the Armenians.

The lands they covered were overwhelmingly Muslim in population.

The only way they could create an Armenia was to expel the Muslims. Knowing this history is essential to understanding what was to come during World War I. There had been a long historical period in which two conflicting sides developed.

Russian imperialists and Armenian revolutionaries had begun a struggle that was in no way wanted by the Ottomans. Yet the Ottomans were forced to oppose the plans of both Russians and Armenians, if only to defend the majority of their subjects. History taught the Ottomans that if the Armenians triumphed not only would territory be lost, but mass expulsions and deaths would be the fate of the Muslim majority. This was the one absolutely necessary goal of the Armenian rebellion.

The preview to what was to come in the Great War came in the Russian Revolution of 1905. Harried all over the Empire, the Russians encouraged ethnic conflict in Azerbaijan, fomenting an inter-communal war. Azeri Turks and Armenians battled each other when they should have attacked the Empire that ruled over both. Both Turks and Armenians learned the bitter lesson that the other was the enemy, even though most of them wanted nothing of war and bloodshed. The sides were drawn.

In late 1914, inter-communal conflict began in the Ottoman East with the Armenian rebellion. Anatolian Armenians went to the Russian South Caucasus for training, approximately 8,000 in Kagizman, 6,000 in Igdir and others elsewhere. They returned to join local rebels and revolts erupted all over the East. The Ottoman Government estimated 30,000 rebels in Sivas Vilayeti alone, probably an exaggeration but indicative of the scope of the rebellion. Military objectives were the first to be attacked.

Telegraph lines were cut. Roads through strategic mountain passes were seized. The rebels attacked Ottoman officials, particularly recruiting officers, throughout the East. Outlying Muslim villages were assaulted and the first massacring of Muslims began. The rebels attempted to take cities such as Zeytun, Mus, Sebin Karahisar and Urfa. Ottoman armed forces which were needed at the front were instead forced to defend the interior.

The most successful rebel action was in the city of Van. In March 1915 they seized the city from a weak Ottoman garrison and proceeded to kill all the Muslims who could not escape. Some 3,000 Kurdish villagers from the surrounding region were herded together into the great natural bowl of Zeve, outside the city of Van, and slaughtered. Kurdish tribes in turn took their revenge on any Armenian villagers they found.





Part II:

Popular opinion today knows of only one set of deportations, more properly called forced migrations, in Anatolia, the deportation of the Armenians. There were in fact many forced migrations. For the Armenians, the worst forced migrations came when they accompanied their own armies in retreat. Starvation and disease killed great numbers of both, far more than fell to enemies' bullets.

It is true that the Ottomans had obvious reason to fear Armenians, and that forced migration was an age-old tool in Middle Eastern and Balkan conflicts. It is also true that while its troops were fighting the Russians and Armenians, the Ottoman Government could not and did not properly protect the Armenian migrants. Nevertheless, more than 200,000 of the deported Armenians reached Greater Syria and survived. Those who see the evil of genocide in the forced migrations of Armenians ignore the survival of so many of those who were deported. They also ignore the fact that the Armenians who were most under Ottoman control, those in Western cities such as Izmir, Istanbul, and Edirne, were neither deported nor molested, presumably because they were not a threat. If genocide is to be considered, however, then the murders of Turks and Kurds in 1915 and 1916 must be included in the calculation of blame. The Armenian molestations and massacres in Cilicia, deplored even by their French and British allies, must be judged. And the exile or death of two-thirds of the Turks of Erivan Province, the Armenian Republic, during the war must be remembered.

Historical principles were once again at work. Rebels had begun the action and the result was the creation of two warring sides. After the Armenian deeds in Van and elsewhere, Muslims could only have expected that Armenians were enemies who could kill them. Armenians could only have feared Muslim revenge. Most of these people had no wish for war, but they had been driven to it. It was to be a merciless conflict.

For the next five years, total war raged in the Ottoman East. When the Russians attacked and occupied the East, more than a million Muslims fled as refugees, itself an indication that they expected to die if they remained. They were attacked on the roads by Armenian bands as they fled. When the Russians retreated it was the turn of the Armenians to flee. The Russians attacked and retreated, then attacked again, then finally retreated for good. With each advance came the flight of hundreds of thousands. Two wars were fought in Eastern Anatolia, a war between the armies of Russia and the Ottomans and a war between local Muslims and Armenians. In the war between the armies, civilians and enemy soldiers were sometimes treated with humanity, sometimes not. Little quarter was given in the war between the Armenians and the Muslims, however. That war was fought with all the ferocity of men who fought to defend their families.

Popular opinion today knows of only one set of deportations, more properly called forced migrations, in Anatolia, the deportation of the Armenians. There were in fact many forced migrations. For the Armenians, the worst forced migrations came when they accompanied their own armies in retreat. Starvation and disease killed great numbers of both, far more than fell to enemies' bullets. This is as should be expected from historical principles; starvation and disease are always the worst killers. It is also a historical principle that refugees suffer most of all.

One of-the many forced migration was the organized expulsion of Armenians from much of Anatolia by the Ottoman government. In light of the history and the events of this war, it is true that the Ottomans had obvious reason to fear the Armenians, and that forced migration was an age-old tool in Middle Eastern and Balkan conflicts. It is also true that while its troops were fighting the Russians and Armenians, the Ottoman Government could not and did not properly protect the Armenian migrants. Nevertheless, more than 200,000 of the deported Armenians reached Greater Syria and survived. (Some estimate that as many as two-thirds of the deportees survived.)

Those who see the evil of genocide in the forced migrations of Armenians ignore the survival of so many of those who were deported. They also ignore the fact that the Armenians who were most under Ottoman control, those in Western cities such as Izmir, Istanbul, and Edirne, were neither deported nor molested, presumably because they were not a threat.

No claim of genocide can rationally stand in the light of these facts. If genocide is to be considered, however, then the murders of Turks and Kurds in 1915 and 1916 must be included in the calculation of blame. The Armenian murder of the innocent civilians of Erzincan, Bayburt, Tercan, Erzurum, and all the villages on the route of the Armenian retreat in 1918 must be taken into account. The Armenian molestations and massacres in Cilicia, deplored even by their French and British allies, must be judged. And the exile or death of two-thirds of the Turks of Erivan Province, the Armenian Republic, during the war must be remembered.

That is the history of the Conflict between the Turks and the Armenians. Only when that history is known can the assertions of those who accuse the Turks be understood.



Ottoman officials were falsely quoted as ordering hideous deeds




In examining the claims of Armenian nationalists, first to be considered should be outright lies.

The most well-known of many fabrications on the Armenian Question are the famous "Talat Pasa Telegrams," in which the Ottoman interior minister and other officials supposedly telegraphed instructions to murder the Armenians. These conclusively have been proven to be forgeries by Sinasi Orel and Sureyya Yuca. However, one can only wonder why they would ever have been taken seriously. A whole people cannot be convicted of genocide on the basis of penciled scribblings on a telegraph pad.

These were not the only examples of words put in Talat Pasa's mouth. During World War I, the British Propaganda Office and American missionaries published a number of scurrilous works in which Ottoman officials were falsely quoted as ordering hideous deeds.

One of the best examples of invented Ottoman admissions of guilt may be that concocted by the American ambassador Morgenthau. Morgenthau asked his readers to believe that Talat Pasa offhandedly told the ambassador of his plans to eradicate the Armenians. Applying common sense and some knowledge of diplomatic practice helps to evaluate these supposed indiscretions. Can anyone believe that the Ottoman interior minister would actually have done such a thing? He knew that America invariably supported the Armenians, and had always done so. If he felt the need to unburden his soul, who would be the last person to whom he would talk? The American ambassador. Yet to whom does he tell all? The American Ambassador! Talat Pasa was a practical politician. Like all politicians, he undoubtedly violated rules and made errors. But no one has ever alleged that Talat Pasa was an idiot. Perhaps Ambassador Morgenthau knew that the U.S. State Department would never believe his story, because he never reported it at the time to his masters, only writing it later in a popular book.

The use of quotes from Americans is selective. One American ambassador, Morgenthau, is quoted by the Armenian apologists, but another American ambassador, Bristol, is ignored. Why? Because Bristol gave a balanced account and accused Armenians as well as Muslims of crimes.

The most often seen fabrication may be the famous "Hitler Quote." Hitler supposedly stated, "Who after all is today speaking of the destruction of the Armenians?" to justify his Holocaust. The quote now appears every year in school books, speeches in the American Congress and the French Parliament and most writings in which the Turks are attacked. Professor Heath Lowry has cast serious doubt on the authenticity of the quote. It is likely that Hitler never said it. But there is a more serious question: How can Adolf Hitler be taken as a serious source on Armenian history? Were his other historical ****ouncements so reliable that his opinions can be trusted?

Politically, "Hitler" is a magic word that conjures up an all too true image of undisputed evil. He is quoted on the Armenian Question for polemic and political purpose, to tie the Turks to Hitler's evil. In the modern world nothing defames so well as associating your enemies with Hitler. This is all absurdity, but it is potent absurdity that convinces those who know nothing of the facts. It is also a deliberate distortion of history.

Population has also been a popular field for fabrication. Armenian nationalists had a particular difficulty -- they were only a small part of the population of the land they planned to carve from the Ottoman Empire. The answer was false statistics. Figures appeared that claimed that Armenians were the largest group in Eastern Anatolia. These population statistics were supposedly the work of the Armenian Patriarch, but they were actually the work of an Armenian who assumed a French name, Marcel Leart, published them in Paris and pretended they were the Patriarch's work. Naturally, he greatly exaggerated the number of Armenians and diminished the number of Turks. Once again, the amazing thing is that these were ever taken seriously. Yet they were used after World War I to justify granting Eastern Anatolia to the Armenians and are still routinely quoted today.

The Armenian apologists quote American missionaries as if missionaries would never lie, omitting the numerous proofs that missionaries did indeed lie and avoided mentioning anything that would show Armenians to be less than innocent. The missionaries in Van, for example, reported the deaths of Armenians, but not the fact that those same Armenians had killed all the Muslims they caught in that city.

The main falsification of history by the Armenian apologists lies not in what they say, but in what they do not say. They do not admit that much of the evidence they rely on is tainted because it was produced by the British Propaganda Office in World War I. For example, the Bryce Report, "The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire," has recently been reproduced by an Armenian organization, with a long introduction that praises its supposed veracity. Nowhere does the reprint state that the report was produced and paid for by British Propaganda as a way to attack its wartime enemies, the Ottomans. Nor does the reprint state that the other Bryce Report, this one on alleged German atrocities, has long been known by historians to be a collection of lies. Nor does the reprint consider that the sources in the report, such as the Dashnak Party, had a tradition of not telling the truth.

The basic historical omission is never citing, never even looking at evidence that might contradict one's theories. Nationalist apologists refer to English propaganda, missionary reports, statements by Armenian revolutionaries, and the like. They seldom refer to Ottoman documents, hundreds of which have been published in recent years, except perhaps to claim that nothing written by the Ottomans can be trusted although they trust completely the writings of Armenian partisans. These documents indicate that the Ottomans planned no genocide and were at least officially solicitous of the Armenians' welfare. The fact that these contradict the Armenian sources is all the more reason that they should be consulted. Good history can only be written then both sides of historical arguments are considered.

Worst of all is the most basic omission -- the Armenian apologists do not mention the Muslim dead. Any civil war will appear to be a genocide if only the dead of one side are counted. Their writings would be far more accurate, and would tell a very different story, if they included facts such as the deaths of nearly two-thirds of the Muslims of Van Vilayeti, deaths caused by the Russians and Armenians. Histories that strive for accuracy must include all the facts, and the deaths of millions of Muslims is surely a fact that deserves mention.

Those of us who have studied this question for years have seen many approaches come and go. The old assertions, based on the Talat Pasa telegrams and missionary reports, were obviously insufficient, and new ones have appeared.

For a while, Pan-Turanism was advanced as the cause for Turkish actions. It was said that the Turks wished to be rid of the Armenians because the Armenian population blocked the transportation routes to Central Asia. This foundered on the rocks of geography and population. The Anatolian Armenian population was not concentrated on those routes. The Armenian Republic's Armenians, those in Erivan Province, were on some of those routes. However, when at the end of the war the Ottomans had the chance to occupy Erivan they did not do so, but went immediately on to Baku to protect Azeri Turks from attacks by enough to believe that their chief concern was advancing to Uzbekistan.

Much was made of post-war-courts martial that accused members of the Committee of Union and Progress Government of crimes against the Armenians.

The accusations did not state that the courts were convened by the unelected quisling government of Ferid Pasa who created the courts to curry favor with the allies. The courts returned verdicts of guilty for all sorts of improbable offenses, of which killing Armenians was only one. The courts chose anything, true of false, that would cast aspersion on Ferid's enemies. The accused could not represent themselves. Can the verdicts of such courts be trusted? Conveniently overlooked were the investigations of the British, who held Istanbul and were in charge of the Ottoman Archives, but who were forced to admit that they could find no evidence of massacres.


The enemy of the nationalist apologists is the truth



Part III:

A German scholar has decided that the Ottomans reported and killed Armenians so that they would have space in which to settle the Turkish refugees from the Balkan Wars. Those with some knowledge of Ottoman history know that the Balkan refugees were almost all settled in Western Anatolia and Ottoman Europe, not in the East, and that the refugees were all settled before the World War I Armenian troubles began Nationalist apologists first decide that the Turks are guilty, then look for evidence that will show they are correct ... The enemy of the nationalist apologists is the truth. They have thrown false telegrams, spurious statistics, sham courts and anything else they could find, but the truth has advanced Campaigns were organized to silence historians. One professor was mercilessly attacked in the press because he advised the Turkish ambassador on responding to questions about the Ottoman Armenians. No one questioned the probity of the American Armenian scholar who became the chief advisor of the president of the Armenian Republic or doubted the veracity of the American Armenian professor whose son became the Armenian Foreign Minister Fewer and fewer historians are willing to write on this history. A very senior and respected scholar of Ottoman history, Bernard Lewis, was brought to court in France for his denial of the Armenian genocide. After a long and successful career, Professor Lewis could afford to confront those who accused him. Could a junior scholar afford to do the same? Applying the principles of history, we can see that what occurred was, in fact a long history of imperialism, nationalist revolt, and ethnic conflict. The result was horrible mortality on all sides. There is an explainable, understandable history of a two-sided conflict. It was not genocide.

A recent find of the nationalist is the Teskilat-I Mahsusa, the secret organization that operated under orders of the Committee of Union and Progress. We are told that the Teskilat must have organized Armenian massacres. The justification for this would astonish any logician:

It is alleged that because a secret organization existed it must have been intended to do evil, including the genocide of the Armenians. As further "proof," it is noted that officers of the Teskilat were present in areas where Armenians died. Since Teskilat officers were all over Anatolia, this should surprise no one. By this dubious logic Teskilat members must also have been responsible for the deaths of Muslims because they were also present in areas where Muslims died. Does this prove that no Teskilat members killed or even massacred Armenians? It does not. It would be odd if during wartime no members of a large organization had not committed such actions, and they undoubtedly did so. What it in no way proves is that the Teskilat was ordered to commit genocide.

A German scholar has decided that the Ottomans reported and killed Armenians so that they would have space in which to settle the Turkish refugees from the Balkan Wars. For those who do not know Ottoman history, this might seem like a reasonable explanation. Those with some knowledge of Ottoman history know that the Balkan refugees were almost all settled in Western Anatolia and Ottoman Europe, not in the East, and that the refugees were all settled before the World War I Armenian troubles began.

Such assertions are the result of the methods used. Nationalist apologists first decide that the Turks are guilty, then look for evidence that will show they are correct. They are like a man in a closed room fighting against a stronger enemy. As the enemy advances the man picks up a book, a lamp, an ashtray, a chair -- whatever he can find -- and throws it in the vain hope of stopping the enemy's advance. But the enemy continues on. Eventually the man runs out of things to throw, and he is beaten. The enemy of the nationalist apologists is the truth. They have thrown false telegrams, spurious statistics, sham courts, and anything else they could find, but the truth has advanced.

Some tactics have been all too successful in reducing the number of scholars who study the Armenian Question. When the fabrications and distortions failed, there were outright threats. When the historians could not be convinced, the next best thing was to silence them. One professor's house was bombed.

Others were threatened with similar violence. Campaigns were organized to silence historians. One professor was mercilessly attacked in the press because he advised the Turkish ambassador on responding to questions about the Ottoman Armenians. It is worth noting that no one questioned the probity of the American Armenian scholar who became the chief advisor of the president of the Armenian Republic or doubted the veracity of the American Armenian professor whose son became the Armenian foreign minister. No one questioned the objectivity of these scholars or attacked them, nor should they. The only proper question is, "What is the truth!" No matter who pays the bills, no matter the nationality of the author, no matter if he writes to ambassadors, no matter his religion, his voting record, his credit status, or his personal life, his views on history should be closely analyzed and, if true, accepted.





The only question is the truth.

Such attacks have had their intended effect. Fewer and fewer historians are willing to write on this history. A very senior and respected scholar of Ottoman history, Bernard Lewis, was brought to court in France for his denial of the Armenian genocide. After a long and successful career, Professor Lewis could afford to confront those who accused him. He also could afford to hire the lawyers who defended him. Could a junior scholar afford to do the same? Could someone who depended on university rectors, who worry about funding, afford to take up such a dangerous topic? Could someone without Professor Lewis's financial resources afford the lawyers who defended both his free speech and his good name?

I myself was the target of a campaign, instigated by an Armenian newspaper, that attempted to have me fired from my university. Letters and telephone calls from all over the United States came to the president of my university, demanding my dismissal because I denied the "Armenian Genocide." We have the tenure system in the United States, a system that guarantees that senior professors cannot be fired for what they teach and write, and my university president defended my rights. But a younger professor might understandably be afraid to write on the Armenians if he knew he faced the sort of ordeal that has been faced by others.

To me, the worst of all is being accused of being the kind of politicized nationalist scholar I so detest. False reasons are invented to explain why I say this -- my mother is a Turk, my wife is a Turk, I am paid large sums by the Turkish government. None of these things is true, but it would not affect my writings one bit if they were. The way to challenge a scholar's work is to read his writings and respond to them with your own scholarship, not to attack his character.

When, despite the best efforts of the nationalist apologists, some still speak out against the distortion of history, the final answer is political: Politicians are enlisted to rewrite history. Parliaments are enlisted to convince their people that there was a genocide. In America, the Armenian nationalists lobby a Congress which refuses to even consider an apology for slavery to demand an apology from Turks for something the Turks did not do.

In France, the Armenia nationalists lobby a Parliament which will not address the horrors perpetrated by the French in Algeria, which they know well took place, to declare there were horrors in Turkey, about which they know almost nothing. The people of many nations are then told that the genocide must have taken place because their representatives have recognized it.

The Turks are accused of "genocide," but what does that appalling word mean? The most quoted definition is that of the United Nations: actions "committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnic, radical, or religious group as such." Raphael Lemkin who invented the word genocide, included cultural, social, economic, and political destruction of groups as genocide. Leo Kuper included as genocide attacks on subgroups that are not ethnic, such as economic classes, collective groups and various social categories. By these standards Turks were indeed guilty of genocide. So were Armenians, Russians, Greeks, Americans, British and almost every people that has ever existed. In World War I in Anatolia there were many such "genocides." So many groups attacked other groups that the use of the word genocide is meaningless.

Why, then, is such a hollow term used against the Turks? It is used because those who hear the term do not think of the academic definitions. They think of Hitler and of what he did to the Jews. The intent behind the use of the word genocide is not to foster understanding. The intent is to foster a negative image of the Turks by associating them with great evil. The intent is political.

What must be considered by the serious historian is a simple question, "Did the Ottoman Government carry out a plan to exterminate the Armenians?" In answering this question it is important not to copy the Armenian apologists. When they declare that Armenians did no wrong, the answer is not to reply that the Turks did no wrong. The answer must be honest history. What cannot and should not be denied is that many Anatolian Muslims did commit crimes against Armenians. Some of those who committed crimes were Ottoman officials. Actions were taken in revenge, out of hatred or for political reasons. In total war men do evil acts. This again is a sad but real historical principle. The Ottoman government recognized this and tried more than 1,000 Muslims for war crimes, including crimes against Armenians, hanging some criminals.






Applying the principles of history, we can see that what occurred was in fact a long history of imperialism, nationalist revolt and ethnic conflict.

The result was horrible mortality on all sides. There is an explainable, understandable history of a two-sided conflict. It was not genocide. Throughout that history, both sides killed and were killed. It was not genocide.

Much archival evidence shows Ottoman government concern that Armenians survive. Also, it must be said that much evidence shows poor planning, government weakness and in some places criminal acts and negligence. Some officials were murderous, but a sincere effort was made to punish them. It was not genocide.

The majority of those who were deported survived, even though those Armenians were completely at the mercy of the Ottomans. It was not genocide.

The Armenians most under Ottoman control, the Armenian residents of Istanbul, Izmir, Edirne and other regions of greatest governmental power were neither deported not attacked. It was not genocide.

Why are the Turks accused of a hideous crime they did not commit? The answer is both emotional and political. Many Armenians feel in their hearts that Turks were guilty. They have only heard of the deaths of their ancestors, not the deaths of the Turks. They have been told only a small part of a complicated story for so long that they believe it to be unquestionable truth. Their anger is understandable. The beliefs of those in Europe and America who have never heard the truth, which sadly is the majority, are also understandable. It is the actions of those who use the claim of genocide for nationalist political motives that are inexcusable.

Does any rational analyst deny that the ultimate intent of the Armenian nationalists is to first gain "reparations," then claim Eastern Anatolia as their own?

Finally, what is to be done? As might be expected from all I have said here today, I believe the only answer to false allegations of genocide is to study and proclaim the truths of history. Political actions such as the resolution recently passed by the French Parliament naturally and properly draw corresponding political actions from Turks, but political actions will never convince the world that Turks did not commit genocide. What is needed to convince the world that Turks did not commit genocide? What is needed to convince the world is a great increase in scholarship. Archives must remain open and be easy to use for both Turks and foreigners. Graduate students should be encouraged to study the Armenian question. No student's advisers should tell him to avoid this subject because it is "too political," something I have heard in America and, unfortunately, in Turkey as well.

I suggest, as I have suggested before, that the Turkish Republic propose to the Armenian Republic that a joint commission be established, its members selected by scholarly academies in both countries. All archives should be opened to the commission -- not only the Ottoman Archives, but the archives of Armenia and of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation. (The call is often made for the Turkish Archives to be opened completely. It is time to demand that Armenians do likewise.) I have been told that the Armenians will never agree to this, but how can anyone know unless they try? In any case, refusal to fairly and honestly consider this question would in itself be evidence that the accusations against the Turks are political, not scholarly.

Whether or not such a commission is ever named, the study of the Armenian question must be continued. This is true not only because it is always right to discover accurate history. It is true because honor demands it. Honor is a word that is not often heard today, but a concept of honor is nonetheless sorely needed. I have been told by many that the Turks should adopt a political strategy to deal with the Armenian problem. This strategy would have the Turkish government lie about the past for present political gain.

The government would state that the Ottomans committed genocide, but that modern Turkey cannot be blamed because it is a different government. This, I have been told, would cause the world to think more kindly of the Turks. I do not believe this ultimately would satisfy anyone. I believe that calls for reparations and land would quickly follow such a statement. But that is not the reason to reject such easy political lies. They should be rejected purely because they are wrong. Even if the lies would bring great gains, they should be rejected because they are wrong. I believe the Turks are still men and women of honor. They know that it can never be honorable to accept lies told of their ancestors, no matter the benefits. I also believe that someday, perhaps soon, perhaps far in the future, the truth will be recognized by the world. I believe that the accurate study of history and the honor of the Turks will bring this to pass.



Professor Justin McCarthy teaches at the University of Louisville in Kentucky


regards (respect historians, not politicians)

[fdt]

What's worse: historical revisionism or to show victims pics?

Personnally, I prefer the truth to history falsification or genocid denying.All I can see here: Historical revisionism on one side... and emotional but pointless reaction to this... Both are wrong. I don't play "what is worse" game. I opt for good solutions that build future... Any one sided option is just a digging new graves, spreading new hate and deepens divisions. I don't need any one sided politically motivated crap. I need FACTS and TRUTH coming from trustworthy source. Only this can be a proper way of honoring all those thousands of victims. Only this can be a basis for future peaceful coexistence. As I am no Turk nor Armenian I can turn my back on this saying that's not my problem... but pls don't expect me to stand on one side of the conflict that I would prefer to see solved in bona fide for the sake of future generations of Armenians, Turks and others... For the sake of FACT and TRUTH that no side will be able to question anymore for political reasons. I don't see such attitude in presenting true pictures of true Armenian victims by our Greek fellow MP user.... btw... wouldn't it be enough to post links to those pics?

[Clearday-TRForce]

Book review in the Times Literary Supplement of September 17th 2004 (No 5294)

By ANDREW MANGO



THE BURNING TIGRIS The Armenian genocide 474pp. Heinemann.



It is easy to understand the anger and anguish of Armenian nationalists. They gaze at their terra irredenta, historic Armenia which lies almost entirely within the borders of the republic of Turkey, and which is dotted with the ruins of monuments bearing witness to the high culture of Armenian kingdoms before the Turkish con-quest from the eleventh century onward. But there are no irredenti - no unredeemed Armenians - in historic Armenia or elsewhere in Asia Minor. Nor are there any prospects of a reconquista. The population of the small landlocked Armenian republic in the southern Caucasus has fallen from over three million at the time of the dissolution of the Soviet Union to an estimated two million today. One-fifth of the territory of the neighbouring republic of Azerbaijan, which the Armenians have occupied, lies largely empty after the flight of close on one million of its Azeri inhabitants. There are not enough Armenians to hold on to recent conquests, let alone to people their terra irredenta in Turkey. Why have things come to such a sorry pass?


Andrew Mango in 1990

In his campaigning book, Peter Balakian seeks to persuade liberal Americans in general, and members of the United States Congress in particular, that the Turks alone are to blame, and that, for reasons of realpolitik, the Christian West has failed to bring their crimes home to them. In Balakian's account, Muslim Turks have always oppressed Christian Armenians. Oppression turned to unprovoked massacre in the 1890s in the reign of Sultan Abdul Hamid II, and peaked in genocide when the Young Turks deported the Armenians from Asia Minor in 1915 during the First World War. It was he argues, the first genocide of the twentieth century and a model for the Jewish Holocaust. The historical record does not support Balakian's thesis.

For eight centuries - from 1071 when the Seljuk Turks defeated the Byzantines at Manzikert, in historic Armenia, to the congress of Berlin in 1878 when the Armenian Question entered the agenda of international diplomacy -the Armenians lived as a self-governing religious community perfectly integrated into the mosaic of Ottoman society. They provided the Ottoman State with most of its craftsmen - from humble farriers to imperial architects, from potters to jewellers, and in modem times, mechanics, train drivers and dentists. Not only did many, if not most, of them adopt Turkish as their mother tongue, but in a rare linguistic phenomenon, the grammar of the Armenian language was affected by Turkish morphology. The Armenian contribution to Turkish culture was immense: they set up the first modem Turkish theatre, they published books in Turkish, they devised Turkish translations for new Western terms and concepts, they were prominent in Turkish music, both as composers and performers.

Like other non-Muslim communities, the Armenians were among the main beneficiaries of the nineteenth-century Tanzimat reforms which proclaimed the equality of the Sultan's subjects, regardless of creed The prosperity which the Tanzimat brought in its train drew the Armenians from their harsh homeland on the eastern Anatolian plateau to the great commercial centres of the Empire - to Trabzon, Istanbul, Izmir and the market towns of Asia Minor, where, together with the Greeks, they accounted for the bulk of a new middle class. The Armenians had always been renowned as merchants and bankers; under the Tanzimat many became senior civil servants. Right up to 1914 there were Armenian ambassadors and Cabinet ministers serving the Ottoman State. Balakian does not mention them. Of course, the Armenians had grievances, particularly in the mountainous areas of eastern Anatolia, where they were subject to the depredations of Kurdish tribes and of destitute Circassian refugees, not to mention venal Ottoman officials. But most Muslims were much worse off.

As a result of Armenian emigration and the immigration of Muslim refugees fleeing from successive Russian advances in the Caucasus, Muslims came to outnumber the Armenians by a large margin in historic Armenia. There were prosperous Armenian communities everywhere, but they were not in the majority in a single province. This posed the biggest problem for Armenian nationalists, when they began to agitate for autonomous government. In his celebrated essay, "Minorities", Elie Kedourie described how ideas originating in the West destroyed the Armenian community in Asia Minor and the Jewish community in Iraq. In the case of the Armenians, these ideas came through two channels - from the Russian Empire where Armenian nationalism was born in the revolutionary ferment of opposition to the rule of the Tsars, and from American missionaries whose schools produced the unintended effect of alienating the Armenians from their Ottoman environment. Kedourie relates how Armenian nationalist terrorism was the pretext for the anti-Armenian pogroms of the 1890s - the first major inter-communal clash between Muslims and Armenians, who had earlier been known to the Ottomans as "the faithful nation". Even if one disregards the exaggerated figures put out by Armenian nationalists, and reduces the number of people killed to the more likely figure of 20,000-30,000, the pogroms were bad enough. But worse was to follow.

It was the decision of the Young Turks to enter the Great War on the side of Germany against Russia and the other Allies that sealed the fate of the Armenians. By 1914 there were roughly as many Armenians in the Russian as in the Ottoman Empire. Tom between two warring sides, the Armenians were bound to prefer the Christian Russians. One can argue about the extent of the threat posed by Armenian irregulars to the Ottoman army, which was trying to contain a Russian advance in eastern Anatolia in 1915. In the words of the American military historian Edward Erickson, "It is beyond doubt that the actuality of Armenian revolts in the key cities astride the major eastern roads and railroads posed a significant military problem in the real sense".

But it is hard to argue that the problem justified the decision of Enver Pasha and the other Young Turk leaders to deport almost the entire Armenian population of Asia Minor (outside Izmir and, of course, Istanbul) The Young Turks issued a sheaf of orders and regulations which, in theory, were meant to ensure the humane evacuation and transport of deportees But as Enckson points out, "Enver Pasha's plans hinged on non-existent capabilities that guaranteed inevitable failure" An earlier military historian, Gwynne Dyer, wrote "I believe that historians will come to see [the Young Turk leaders] not so much as evil men but as desperate, frightened unsophisticated men struggling to keep their nation afloat in a crisis far graver than they had anticipated, reacting to events rather than creating them, and not fully realizing the extent of the horrors they had set in motion".


Dr. Andrew Mango

The horrors involved, according to the careful calculations by the American historical demographer Justin McCarthy (whom Balakian does not mention), the loss of some 580,000 Armenian lives from all causes - massacre, starvation and disease The fact that Muslim losses were much greater in the same theatre of operations does nothing to detract from the extent of the Armenian tragedy Was it a genocide^ Bernard Lewis was sued in a French court for saying sensibly that it all depends on the definition of genocide But, whatever the definition, Balakian's insistent comparison with the Jewish Holocaust is misleading The Turkish Armenians perished m the course of "a desperate struggle between two nations for the possession of a single homeland", in Professor Lewis's words For the Turks, Lewis wrote, "the Armenian movement was the deadliest of all threats", to yield to it "would have meant not the truncation, but the dissolution of the Turkish state" The Jews posed no such threat to the Germans Religious fanaticism was a factor in the Armenian tragedy, racism was not There is a much closer parallel with the eviction of Circassians and other Muslim mountaineers from Russian Caucasus in the nineteenth century The figures are of the same order as those relating to the Armenians some 1 2 million Muslim Caucasians left their Russian-conquered homeland, 800,000 of them lived to settle in Ottoman domains.

The Burning Tigris fits in with the campaign waged by Armenian nationalists to persuade Western parliaments to recognize the Armenian genocide It is not a work of historical research, but an advocate's impassioned plea, relying at times on discredited evidence, such as the forged telegrams attributed to the Ottoman interior minister, Talat Pasha, which were produced at the trial of his assassin in Berlin Some of Balakian's assertions would make any serious Ottoman historian's hair stand on end. Like other similar books, it is replete with selective quotations from contemporary observers. Turkish historians have drawn from many of the same sources for material to rebut Armenian accusations. It would be better if, rather than ask parliaments to pass historical judgments, historians from all sides came together to research the horrors of the war on the Ottomans* eastern front. But it is better to lobby parliaments than to assassinate Turkish diplomats, as happened in a previous campaign by genocide-avengers, which Peter Balakian, to his credit, regrets. At present, Armenian nationalists refuse to engage in a dialogue with Turkish historians unless there is preliminary recognition of their genocide claim. Refusal is in their eyes tantamount to the crime of Holocaust denial. But acceptance would be a denial of the freedom of historical research, not to say of free speech.


What a beautiful response, and credit goes to the newspaper for choosing a critic who is not a genocide zealot but a true historian. There was no shortage of outcry, as to be expected.



Dr. Andrew Mango is part of the "Centre of Near and Middle Eastern Studies" in England's SOAS University.


such as no one discuss Nazi genocide,coz done.(6 million Jews) But all world politicians discuss false Armenian Genocide? why? coz not done. ;)


regards. (respect historians,not politicians)

[rister]

Give up on this topic............this is a one man rant. Why bother answering!!
:cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli:

[Kontra1]

Noone can tell to what extent it is revisionism or not... as long as the FACTS are established in trustworthy manner. For me this and many other such historical issues are just a playground for politicians who by definition are interested in historical tragedies exploitations for short term political issues.


EXACTLY!...Thank you!


Kontra1

[fdt]

Noone can tell to what extent it is revisionism or not... as long as the FACTS are established in trustworthy manner. For me this and many other such historical issues are just a playground for politicians who by definition are interested in historical tragedies exploitations for short term political issues.


EXACTLY!...Thank you!


Kontra1No need to thank me for anything...

To make myself clear. I haven't said I don't believe that hundreds of thousands of Armenians have been killed by Turks in 1915. I believe that this took place. All I want to see is ONE (investigated by commission of historians who will represent BOTH sides) common set of detailed FACTS... who are not in favor of anything but TRUTH. I don't want to hear all over again about TWO one sided versions of the same events... as I find such a situation pointless for Peoples of Turkey and Armenia. Situation that only some politicians on both sides can now profit...

[Clearday-TRForce]

+1

[Kontra1]

No need to thank me for anything...
To make myself clear. I haven't said I don't believe that hundreds of thousands of Armenians have been killed by Turks in 1915. I believe that this took place. All I want to see is ONE (investigated by commission of historians who will represent BOTH sides) common set of detailed FACTS... who are not in favor of anything but TRUTH. I don't want to hear all over again about TWO one sided versions of the same events... as I find such a situation pointless for Peoples of Turkey and Armenia. Situation that only some politicians on both sides can now profit...


I thanked you for pointing out someting that we also strongly believe in ...something not very often admitted by third parties because they have their own gains from the issue.

Kontra1

[Javehn]

Want to hear the truth about Armenian genocide ? Here is a story from other era .

In 1991 , I've seen people got burned inside oil barrels on the streets by Azeri nationalists , just because of single crime , they were Armenians . My relatives were almost burned allive just because our last name sounds somewhat Armenian . Churches were ruined , people got stabbed and shot . Azeri nationalists were shouting "Karabax bizim torpax" and "we will finnish what the our brothers Turks started with you" .

I haven't lost respect for Azeri and Turks from that time and I still hold a respect for them . But after seeing that ...I don't know what to think , specialy after Azeries claimed there were no genocide of the Armenians .

[Clearday-TRForce]

"...ARMENIAN VOLUNTEER UNITS SERVED IN THE RUSSIAN ARMY, AND THERE WAS AGITATION FOR A HOMELAND IN AND AROUND THE ANATOLIAN CITY OF VAN..."
WILLIAM L. CLEVELAND, A HISTORY OF THE MODERN MIDDLE EAST, 1994, PP.142


"...ARMENIAN VOLUNTEERS CERTAINLY STARTED KILLING MOSLEM CIVILIANS AS SOON AS RUSSIAN TROOPS CROSSED THE OTTOMAN FRONTIER..."
DAVID NICOLLE, PH.D, THE OTTOMAN ARMY 1914-18, 1996, PP. 38


"... MOREOVER, THROUGHOUT EASTERN ANATOLIA THE TURKS WERE THREATENED BY THE INSURRECTION OF THEIR EMBITTERED ARMENIAN SUBJECTS, WHO DISRUPTED COMMUNICATIONS AND FORMED VOLUNTEER GROUPS TO HELP THE RUSSIANS. OTHERS JOINED THE RUSSIAN ARMENIAN FORCES...",
PETER MANSFIELD, A HISTORY OF THE MIDDLE EAST, 1991, PP. 150


"...A FEW THOUSAND ARMENIANS JOINED THE RUSSIAN ARMY; THERE WERE ARMENIAN DESERTIONS FROM THE OTTOMAN ARMY AND GUERILLA ACTIVITY BEHIND THE OTTOMAN LINES...",
ERIK J. ZURCHER, TURKEY, A MODERN HISTORY, 1993, PP. 120





How the British and U.S. Archives Vindicate Turks in the Armenian Allegations


Part I




On January 27, 1973, when an old Armenian man, George Yanikian, ambushed and assassinated two Turkish diplomats in Santa Barbara, California, Armenian terrorism burst onto center stage. For about two decades, Armenian terrorists killed more than 70 Turkish diplomats around the world (four in the United States), and wounded and maimed hundreds of innocent bystanders in the carnage they created at airports, markets, and on the streets. Besides a variety of Turkish targets, this brutal and utterly senseless terrorism engulfed the American academia as well. Armenian terrorists attempted to silence prominent history scholars in this country who refused to adopt the revisionist version of history fabricated by the Armenians themselves. In 1977, they bombed the house of Stanford Shaw, a prominent history professor at U.C.L.A. and forced him and his family off the campus.

A gang of lunatic Armenian terrorists, brainwashed and programmed by their hierarchy, calling themselves "Justice Commandos" claimed that they were out to "liberate" Armenia, ironically, which was part of the Soviet Union at that time, and also to "revenge" a mythical genocide supposedly perpetrated by the Ottoman Turkish government between 1915 and 1921. Those desperados, impervious to logic and reasoning, killed not only innocent Turks who were not even born at that time but also destroyed and ruined a part of history cherished by the Turks as well as thousands of Armenians who have lived together like brothers for centuries.

The extremist Armenians claim that their case was never fully heard. This is not true. Armenians have made several attempts in the past to pass off their cause as a valid case to gain recognition. They played the card of the persecuted minority under the Turkish yoke; they invoked Crusader spirit against the Muslim rule, they put forward the services they rendered to the British, Russians and the French during the war in an unprecedented betrayal to their own sovereign state, the Ottoman Empire. Yet, all these countries used the Armenians as a pawn against the Ottoman Empire during the war, and when the war was over, they turned their back to the Armenians.

The following article has been prepared based on the British and the United States archives. It proves categorically that the Armenian allegations were heard with great zeal by the British following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire, yet all the British efforts to incriminate the Ottoman government proved only the innocence of the Turks.

The Ottoman Empire was defeated at the end of World War I, and the armistice was signed with the British on October 30, 1918. The Allied forces occupied the capital city of Istanbul. The British Rear Admiral Sir Somerset Arthur Gough Calthrope, the signatory of the armistice for the U.K., was appointed the British High Commissioner of Istanbul. He formed a special staff for this new post headed by the Rear Admiral Richard Webb, the deputy High Commissioner. Also two members of the British Foreign Service, Mr. Hohler and Mr. Andrew Ryan were included on the staff. Mr. Ryan, a Catholic Irishman, had previously served as a "Dragoman" (official interpreter) at the British Embassy in Istanbul for 15 years (1899 to 1914) before World War I. He was a notorious anti-Turkish intriguer who was described later by Major J. Douglas Henry during his interview with General Rafet Pasha (November 27-December 5, 1921) as "the most hated man in Turkey... .an intriguer of a kind who did not scruple to employ traitors and turncoats for his purposes."

British Foreign Office Archives:
PRO?FO 371/6480


A Slew of Armenian Investigators are Recruited to Prove "Genocide"



This time Mr. Ryan was appointed not only as a Chief Dragoman, but he also assumed the position of Second Political Officer. In that capacity, his portfolio included a special section of the British High Commission dealing specifically with the Armenian and Greek "victims of persecution." The British High Commission immediately confiscated all the official documents, including the Ottoman State archives; an Armenian by the name of Haigazn K. Khazarian was appointed the head of the Archives Department, one of the most sensitive posts to be assigned, especially to an Armenian. Mr. Ryan engaged several Armenian informers to his staff, among them the most notable were:

Mihran Boyadjian, Former Ottoman civil inspector for the provinces of Bitlis and Musul;

Karageuzian, a member of the Bureau d'Information Armenien of Istanbul;

Dr. Armenak Mediatian, from Erzurum province;

Hagop Minas Berberian, from the province of Diyarbakir;

Hanna Hanoum (a woman), from the province of Diyarbakir;

Dr. Armenak Abu Haytaian, from the province of Urfa;

Eghia Bakalian, from the province of Sivas;

Aram Tosbikian, from the province of Kirsehir;

Hagop Terzi, from the province of Kiraehir;

Memduhi Tomasian, from the province of Erzincan;

Aroussiagh Yervant Iskian, wife of an antique dealer from Ankara;

Ardeshir Lepian, from Batum, Georgia.


The Armenian Patriarchate of Istanbul was in close cooperation with the British High Commission to orchestrate these activities with great zeal. Between January 23, 1919 and April 7, 1919 with the instrumentality of the above informers, four "Black Lists" of Turks accused of alleged "Armenian massacres" were drawn up at the Armenian and the Greek sections of the British High Commission. The lists incriminated 140 former high-ranked Turkish government officials, including the Grand Vizier (equivalent of the Prime Minister), princes, cabinet members, the Speaker of the House, members of the Parliament, members of the Sublime Religious Council, Chief of the General Staff, Army commanders, governors, university professors, journalists, editors, and several prominent members of Turkish society at the time.

As a safety measure, Admiral Calthrope decided to intern all suspects outside the country, and the island of Malta in the Mediterranean was chosen for this purpose. He urgently informed the governor of Malta of the situation and asked him to make arrangements for a detention camp on the island to receive and intern those suspects for safe
custody.

British Archives: PRO ? F. 0. 371/4172/ 23004
Telegram No: 212, January 30, 1919

However, at this junction, the French High Commission in Istanbul raised an objection to the British plans. General Franchet d' Espercy, the commander of the French occupation forces in Istanbul, protested the British move as unacceptable for the following reasons:

1. No court of law outside Turkey would be competent, nor would have authority to judge or to gather evidence for a judiciary action about those "alleged" offenders seized and deported from Turkey for a trial. Because, such deportation process would create an impression of arbitrary action of revenge on the part of the victorious Allies.

2. Such a summary arrest of the high-ranked Turkish officials "presumed" guilty of alleged offenses is a blatant discrimination against a single category of enemies, i.e. the Muslim Turks, while the German, Austrian and Bulgarian war criminals were released and repatriated to their native countries before their peace treaties were ratified. The French government shared the opinion of General Franchet d'Espercy and the French Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Pichon addressed a note on March 5, 1919 to Lord Derby, the British Ambassador in Paris. expressing his government's disapproval for this action.


British Archives: PRO?F. 0. 371/4172/26160
Derby to Foreign Office, Telegram No: 454 March 5, 1919

In view of the resolute determination of the British to smear the Turkish Nation with a horrendous crime, the acting Ottoman Government decided to carry the matter beyond the sphere of authority of the Allies, especially the British. On February 18, 1919, Reshid Bey, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, appealed to five neutral European countries (Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden, The Netherlands and Spain) and invited them to appoint two legal assessors or magistrates to the "Turkish Commission" already constituted for investigating the "alleged" abuses in connection with the relocation of the Ottoman subjects of different race and religion.

Mr. Wandel, the Danish envoy in Istanbul, forwarded this official request of the Ottoman government by telegram to Copenhagen on February 28, 1919. The Chief British Censor in Istanbul was quite upset when he found out about this Turkish initiative without his information, as it could have foiled the willful scheme of the British to falsely incriminate the Turks before the world, and he tried to stop this message, but it was too late. Similar notes had also been sent to Dutch, Spanish, Swedish and Swiss legations in Istanbul. Upon this Turkish demarche, the British Foreign Office decided that "it might be worthwhile to give a 'hint' to the neutral governments concerned."


British Archives: PRO?F. 0.371/4172/29498

Foreign Office Minutes, dated February 25, 1919


Meanwhile, the Spanish Ambassador in London, Senor Don Alphonso Merry Del Val, addressed a confidential note dated February 28, 1919, to Sir Ronald Graham in the Foreign Office, advising the British government of the fact that while his government was examining the matter he wished to know how the Ottoman proposal was being regarded by the British government.

British Archives: PRO?F.O. 371/ 4172 Private and confidential:
February 28, 1919

In an effort to contain the spread of this matter outside the British domain, the Spanish Ambassador was informed by the British Foreign Office on March 4, 1919, that "the acceptance of the Turkish invitation might, and probably would, run counter to the arrangements made at the Peace Conference, and could cause serious complications" This was a stern warning to the Spanish not to get involved in this matter, and to refrain upsetting the sinister British designs.

British Archives: PRO?F.O. 371/ 4172
Letter from Sir Ronald Graham to the Spanish Ambassador. March 4, 1919

Mr. Balfour too, the British delegate at the Paris Peace Conference, suggested to Lord Curzon in a note that the Spanish Government should be discouraged from appointing any legal assessor to the so-called "Turkish Commission."

British Archives: PRO?F. 0. 371/ 4173/47913

Note from Balfour to Curzon, Number: 323. dated March 25. 1919



In view of this vehement opposition to the British Government, Spain and the other neutral countries declined the invitation of the Ottoman government either to take part actively in the process, or to act as independent observers.
Another initiative that compelled the British to uphold the principles of law and justice in dealing with the Turkish case was launched by the Indian Muslims. In early 1919, a delegation representing The Muslims of India headed by Muhammad Ali arrived at the Peace Conference to express the sentiments of the 70 million Indian Muslims and 230 million Indians who belonged to other faiths but supporting their Muslim countrymen in their feelings that the Ottoman Turks should not he subjected to a revengeful act by the British. This delegation was first received by Mr. Fisher, representing Mr. Montagu, the Secretary of India, to whom the delegation underscored the possible serious consequences in their country if the conditions of Peace Treaty contemplated for Turkey were in fact carried out. Mr. Lloyd George also received the delegation on March 19, and in the course of the interview Muhammad Ali made the following remarks with regard to the alleged "Armenian massacres":

"The Indian Khilafat delegation must put on record their utter detestation of such [alleged] conduct and their full sympathy for the sufferers, whether they be Christian or Muslim. However, if the Turks are to be punished as a criminal on the assumption that they have been tyrants in the past. and their rule was intolerable, then the delegation claims that the whole question of these massacres must be impartially investigated by an international commission in which the All - India Khilafat Conference should be adequately represented."

"If in fact the supposed casualties have taken place, not only should their true extent be ascertained but the commission should go fully into the so-called 'massacres' and also the intrigues of the Tsarist Russia in Asia Minor after the success of similar intrigues in the Balkans [reference to the Bulgarian case]; it should also address the secret revolutionary societies organized by the Christian [i.e. Armenian] subjects of the sultan, whose rebellious character was subversive of his rule. It should further go into the provocation of the Muslim majority in the region by the Armenians through armed revolts, massacres of the civilians and the terrorism acts."
"I have no brief for them; I have no brief for the Turks. I have only a brief for Islam and the Indian Muslims. What we say is this, as I said to Mr. Fisher: Let there be a thorough inquiry, and if this thorough inquiry is carried out, and if it establishes to the satisfaction of the world that the Turks really have been guilty of these atrocities and horrible crimes, then we will wash our hands of the Turks. To us it is much more important that not a single stain should remain on the fair name of Islam. Otherwise, with what face could we go before the world if our brethren are murderers and massacrers?"

"But we know the whole history of these massacres to some extent. It is only towards the Armenians that the Turk is said to be so intolerant; there are other parts of the world where he [the Turk] deals with Christian people, and where he deals with the Jewish community. No complaint of massacres come from those communities. Moreover, the Armenians themselves lived under the Turkish rule for centuries and never complained. Therefore, we earnestly appeal to you, to the whole Christian world of Europe and America, that if the Turk is to be punished on the assumption that he is a tyrant, and that his rule is a blasting tyranny then the evidence should be of such character that it should be absolutely above suspicion."

Yet, the British were intensely determined to take revenge from the defeated Ottoman Empire, and wipe it out from the surface of the earth; therefore, this appeal of justice and fairness of the Indian Muslims fell on deaf ears. The so-called "Armenian massacres" were a convenient pretext for their purpose. Thus, the British government callously pushed aside all the concerns for humanity, justice and morality, and reserved exclusively to itself the right to act as the judge as well as the prosecutor in the trial of the so-called "Turkish war criminals." The following telegram was sent by Admiral Richard Webb to the British Foreign Office in London in that spirit:

"To punish all persons guilty of Armenian atrocities would necessitate wholesale execution of the Turks, and I therefore suggest a retribution both on a national scale by dismembering the late Turkish Empire, as well as individually by the trial of high officials, such as those on my lists, whose fate will serve as an example."




regards (respect true history-historians,not politicians)

[Clearday-TRForce]

(Part II)

British Archives: PRO-F.O. 371/4173/53351
Webb to F.O. telegram No: 677
April 13, 1919


From the 1942 British book, "Grand Turk."
At one time, the British wanted to
put her in a reservation.

In the international arena too the British put forward an evil plan to dismember the Ottoman Empire. In 1917, Italy, predicting a Turco-German defeat, showed willingness to join the war on the side of the Allies, hoping for a possible share in the partition of the Ottoman Empire. The British and French saw in this proposal of Italy a further guarantee for their victory, and accepted the offer. The promise of Turkish territory was embodied in a treaty known as the Agreement of St Jean de Maurienne, signed by Italy, Britain and France, and concluded in April 1917. The Agreement contained a provision making it subject to the concurrence of Russia. However, in the October 1917 Revolution the Bolsheviks overthrew the Czarist government; therefore, the Agreement never came into effect. There was no justification for Italy to claim any territory in Anatolia, nor was there any Italian community in Turkey for her to protect. Nonetheless, starting in mid-March 1919, the Italian Army landed in Antalya supposedly to restore order, and then to leave. Yet, within two months they occupied the entire South-West coast line up to Marmaris. The Allies feared the Italians would march inland and occupy the entire section of Anatolia. At this point the U.S. President Woodrow Wilson intervened, and called for moderation in the Italian ambitions. Thereupon, the Italian delegation Ieft the Peace Conference on April 24, 1919, to consult their government. In the absence of the Italians, the United States, France and Britain turned against them. Suddenly, yesterday's ally had turned to an imperialist aggressor posing a threat to the peace. Meanwhile, more Italian ships sailed for the Turkish post of lzmir, and on May 2, 1919, President Wilson, outraged by this flagrant defiance, spoke of the possibility of the United States going to war against Italy to stop the aggression. The reports of atrocities and horror stories committed by the Italians on the local Turkish population were an embarrassment for the Allies, and therefore, they decided to eliminate the Italians from the picture before the Italian delegation returned to the Peace table on May 7. Lloyd George suggested to ask Greece, which was near at hand, to land troops at Izmir, seemingly to keep order. but in fact to preempt the Italians. The Greek Prime Minister Eleutherios Venizelos had endeared himself to Lloyd George and won him over to his vision of Greece's historic mission embodied in the Megali Idea, encompassing Western Anatolia.

Greek troops landed at Izmir on May 15,1919, under the auspices of the Allies. Greece was not even at war with Turkey, therefore, this perfidious fait-accompli on the part of the British government shook enormously the confidence which the Muslim nations reposed in the pledges given to them by the British. Furthermore, the atrocities perpetrated by the Greek Army and the local Greeks in that region drove the Turks to desperation and outrage.

On May 28, 1919, the first group of the detainees (67 persons) was transported on board S/S H.M.S. PRINCESS ENA to Malta. With the subsequent transportations on July 23, August and September21, 1919, the number of detainees in Malta amounted to more than one hundred. In September 1919, Admiral de Roebeck became the new British High Commissioner to Istanbul. As far as realism and objectivity go, he was more moderate than his predecessor. He had not been intimately involved in this matter so as to be influenced by the massive Armenian propaganda, and let the hard facts be drowned out by his emotions. He reviewed the situation of the Turkish detainees accused of outrages to Armenians, and he reported to Lord Curzon on September 21 the following:

"As I have determined, the selection of deportees was made hurriedly by applying the general principles in the process, rather than relying on known facts. It is obvious that in such circumstances it might be very difficult to sustain definite charges against many of these persons before an Allied tribunal."

British Archives: PRO?P.O. 371/ 4174/136069
De Roebeck to Curzon. Telegram No: 1722/ R/ 1315 September 21, 1919

The new British High Commissioner was aware that the Turkish deportees accused of outrages to Armenians might have been arrested and deported not based on facts, but on a vicious slandering campaign waged by some Armenian informers and conspirators, and he felt that to sustain definite charges before a court of law against the deportees, whose crimes seemed to have had a dubious provenance, would be very difficult. Therefore, he ordered that further arrests be stopped, and made clear to his staff that it was politically inadvisable to deport any more Turkish detainees to Malta.





In December 1919, elections were held throughout the Ottoman Empire for a new Turkish Parliament, and on January 12, 1920, the new Parliament convened in Istanbul. On January 28, in a secret session the deputies voted to adopt the National Pact (Misaki Milli) drawn out by Mustafa Kemal, and on February 17, they announced their decision to the public. On March 16, 1920, Britain led an Allied military occupation of Istanbul, they replaced the Ottoman police, declared martial law, and attacked and dissolved the parliament, arresting 30 deputies. Those deputies were put on board the S/ S BENBOW on March 18, and sent to Malta as "politically undesirable persons."

In view of the ongoing arbitrary detentions and then deportations of the high-level Turkish officials, Mustafa Kemal, who formed the Nationalist government in Ankara, in the heartland ofAnatolia, ordered as a reprisal the arrest of a number of British officers in Anatolia. About 22 of them were arrested, including Colonel Rawlinson, the younger brother of Lord Rawlinson, a British spy and a relative of Lord Curzon.

Despite the French objection to the British action on the basis of the unlawful nature of the deportations new series of arrests continued. In the meantime, the ignominious Peace Treaty of Serves was dictated and imposed on the puppet government of the Ottoman Sultan on August 10, 1920. This Treaty was described by Mustafa Kemal as the "death sentence of the Turkish Nation," and was never ratified. On the alleged Armenian massacres this Treaty contained the following Article:

"Article 230 - The Turkish Government undertakes to hand over to the Allied powers the persons whose surrender may be required by the latter as being responsible for the massacres committed during the continuance of the state of war on territory which formed part of the Turkish Empire on August 1, 1914 [the date the Ottoman Empire entered the war.] The Allied powers reserve to themselves the right to designate the tribunals which shall try the persons so accused, and the Turkish government undertakes to recognize such tribunals."

In small groups transferred between March and November 1920, the number of 'Turkish detainees in Malta reached the total number of 144.

Around that time, the Allies, especially the British, who were in close cooperation with the Armenians, had an opportunity to look closer into their stories. Serious doubts emerged about the veracity of the Armenian accounts, and when the character of the Armenians and their wild stories were superimposed, the truth seemed to evaporate. Naively giving in to propaganda, and prosecuting innocent people for spurious allegations before a historical tribunal were indeed ? different things. Thus, on July 19, 1920, Winston S. Churchill, the then Secretary of State in the British War Cabinet, submitted to his Cabinet the following secret memorandum expressing his concerns in that matter:

"I circulate to the Cabinet a long list of prominent Turkish politicians, ex-ministers, generals, deputies and others whom we are still keeping as prisoners at Malta. It seems to me that this list should be carefully revised by the Attorney General, and that those men against whom no proceedings are contemplated should be released at the first convenient opportunity."

PRO?FO. 371/ 5090 and C.P. 1649: Memorandum by the Secretary of State for War (Cabinet) on position of Turkish prisoners interned at Malta, dated July 19,1920.



Meanwhile, the Law Officers of the Crown were consulted on the subject, and they submitted to the Cabinet an interesting memorandum, which was reviewed in its meeting of August 4, 1920. According to this memorandum, the Law Officers were dealing only with a few Turkish deportees accused of ill treatment of the British prisoners of war. No materials or evidence of any kind ever existed about the alleged and widely propagandized Armenian massacres. So, about one week prior to the signing of the Treaty of Sevres, in view of the lack of reliable evidence, the Armenian issue was unofficially dropped quietly from the British agenda.

It had been about two years since the first party of the detainees was sent to Malta, that at last on February 8, 1921 the British Attorney General sent the following message to the Under Secretary of State:

"The Attorney General is of the opinion that time has come to ask His Majesty's High Commissioner in Istanbul to prepare the evidence against those interned Turks whom he recommends for prosecution on charges of cruelty to native Christians."

The problem was that no such evidence ever existed in the files of the British authorities in London, and Lord Curzon was expecting a full report from H.M. High Commission in Istanbul which had initiated the arrests and deportations. On March 12, 1921, Lord Curzon requested Sir H. Rumbold to report back to him as soon as possible with all the evidence against each of the Turkish nationals accused of cruelties to native Christians.

In view of the excessive delay and inaction ? 20 months! ? on the part of the British government, the Turkish detainees in Malta formally requested from the Governor and the Commander-in-Chief of Malta Field Marshal Lord Plumer, that they be furnished with the "summary of evidence" or with the actual charges, so that they would know what offenses they were accused of and be prepared to answer the charges. They further claimed that with this arbitrary and revengeful attitude by keeping them without any ground, the British government was in violation of the basic principle of justice which considers them innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Thereupon, on March 16, 1921, an agreement was signed in London between Bekir Sami Bey, the Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs, and Mr. Robert Vansittart, a member of the British Foreign Office, which stipulated the release of all 22 British prisoners of war in Turkey, and the repatriation of 64 Turkish detainees in Malta.

Sir H. Rumbold replied to the inquiry of Lord Curzon on the same day, and wrote that the evidence in the case of those Turks whom he had recommended for prosecution will be forwarded by the next mailbag, leaving Istanbul on March 16th.



regards (respect true history-historians,not politicians)

[Clearday-TRForce]

"A lie travels round the world while Truth is putting on her boots" (Used by C.H. Sturgeon, famed English preacher of the 19th century)



Give a lie twenty-four hours start, and it will take a hundred years to overtake it." (C.F. Dixon-Johnson, British author of the 1916 book, "The Armenians," appalled over the deceitful practices of his book's subject.)



"(This) one-sided and unreliable information (about any people) after a long period of unchallenged time, would create hostility and hatred that would not be easily overcome.? (Cyrus Hamlin, co-founder of the American missionary college in Istanbul [Robert College], opining on anti-Turkish propaganda, late 19th-Century.)



"It is... time that Americans ceased to be deceived by (Armenian) propaganda in behalf of policies which are... nauseating..."

John Dewey, Columbia University professor, "The Turkish Tragedy," The New Republic, Nov. 1928



regards (respect true history-historians,not politicians)

[achilles]

Clearday, are you using as a source the 'tallarmeniantale' website? Is this why you avoid providing the links?

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/

I hope that you will come up with more decent sources and justify your notion of "respecting true history-historians not politicians" ;) .

I gave you tons of links and a more than adequate bibliography and you come up with this? Mercy my friend, mercy...

[Kontra1]

Want to hear the truth about Armenian genocide ? Here is a story from other era .

In 1991 , I've seen people got burned inside oil barrels on the streets by Azeri nationalists , just because of single crime , they were Armenians . My relatives were almost burned allive just because our last name sounds somewhat Armenian . Churches were ruined , people got stabbed and shot . Azeri nationalists were shouting "Karabax bizim torpax" and "we will finnish what the our brothers Turks started with you" .

I haven't lost respect for Azeri and Turks from that time and I still hold a respect for them . But after seeing that ...I don't know what to think , specialy after Azeries claimed there were no genocide of the Armenians .

I'm sincerely sorry to hear you experienced someting like this first hand.Yes, it could be problem if they thought you were armenian. 20 % of azerbaycan(including Karabag) is under the armenian occupation for decades now..many were killed, about 1 million azeris are driven away from their land(BTW,this is still like this today)

In 1992 they've massacared the people of "Hocali"

http://www.diplomaticobserver.com/news_read.asp?id=1167

You've mentioned you were there 1991 but things led to "Hocali" massacare probably started before that.

One would easly get the same impression as you did unaware of the situation. But if you were aware of everything and choose not to mention it in your post, then you gave a very good example of how one can tell one story biased and different.

Kontra1

[achilles]

This is from the website of the University of Sussex, Britain:

Modern mass slaughter before the Nazis

Why is the slaughter of the Armenians in 1915 generally described as the first modern genocide? In what senses is genocide distinctively modern?

Chorbajian, L. and Shirinian, G., eds. (1999) Studies in comparative genocide, Basingstoke: Macmillan

Dadrian, V. N. (1989) Genocide as a problem of national and international law: the World War 1 Armenian case and its contemporary legal ramifications. Yale journal of international law, 14,.2. Copy under author in Library.

Graber, G. (1996) Caravans to Oblivion: The Armenian Genocide, 1915. New York: Wiley

*Hovannisian, R. (1992) The Armenian Genocide: History, Politics, Ethics. London: Macmillan, especially J.J. Reid, 'Total war, the annihilation ethic, and the Armenian genocide, 1870-1918'

Jaimes, A. (1991) The state of native America: genocide, colonization, and resistance, Boston: South End P.

Mann, M. (1996) 'Authoritarian and liberal militarism: a contribution from historical sociology' in S. Smith, K. Booth and M. Zalewski (eds.) International Theory: Positivism and Beyond, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, pp 221-239 Link (http://www.sussex.ac.uk/Users/hafa3/gwp.htm)

Many of the above writings consist of solid evidence for the massive slaughtering of Armenians.

Perhaps we are a bit lost in semantics here. You dont want to call it a genocide? Thats ok, you can call it massive massacre, a large-scale slaughtering, a horrific attrocity, you name it. As i have said a number of times, using sources, and people dont seem to get it, Turkey has admitted that she is responsible for the deaths of about 300,000 Armenians. I am more than inclined to believe that this is a VERY moderate estimate, to put it nicely.


Modern Turkey admits that thousands of Turks and up to 300,000 Armenians were killed in widespread clashes between 1915 and 1917.

From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1132336.stm)

Hell, even the US Congress agreed on labeling the massive killings as genocidal act:

The Turkish Government has reacted angrily to a US Congress move to designate the massacres of hundreds of thousands of Armenians by Ottoman forces in 1915 as an act of genocide. link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/monitoring/media_reports/939138.stm)

In fact, the majority of the international community has recognized that something really bad happened there ;) .Call it whatever you like.
Why did almost everyone recognize the attrocites? Do we all hate Turkey so much? Is everyone wrong and Turkey so right?
Mercy! p-)

[achilles]

All I can see here: Historical revisionism on one side... and emotional but pointless reaction to this... Both are wrong. I don't play "what is worse" game.

If you play it you will see that there is a different degree of 'wrong-ness p-) ' between the two. Is it the same? Denying a historical fact and presenting the same historical fact coupled with a couple of graphic photos? Forgive me, but when it comes to any attrocity i get a bit emotional. Still, my sources are all there.

For the sake of FACT and TRUTH that no side will be able to question anymore for political reasons. I don't see such attitude in presenting true pictures of true Armenian victims by our Greek fellow MP user.... btw... wouldn't it be enough to post links to those pics?

Posting photos gives a real picture of how an attrocity may look like. Yet, If you are so much annoyed by graphic pics i can restrain myself from doing so again on this thread.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Clearday, are you using as a source the 'tallarmeniantale' website? Is this why you avoid providing the links?

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/

I hope that you will come up with more decent sources and justify your notion of "respecting true history-historians not politicians" ;) .

I gave you tons of links and a more than adequate bibliography and you come up with this? Mercy my friend, mercy...

well,so my friend, so it can be asked opposite,why dont u like to see this link? This link is not important,the important thing s about their "professors,historians". These are all historians. Maybe u can show me some links about true history.


And I m so much honest. If u prove something to me I can easily believe in you. But first I wanna u something,please answer my questions?


1-Why do many Armenians still live in Turkey?Why do they choose to live here?

2-I will say something. There s only one place in the World who has two religion building side by side,using same garden...Armenian Orthodox Christian Church and Turkish Muslim Mosque. Where do you find these tolerance?

3-There s only one muslim man in the world,who built up a church for Ethnic people. Do you know who is he? He s a sultan of Ottoman.It means This country has full of tolerance for all people.

4-Do you know what Algerian President want thing from Turkish President in the front of media recently?

Amazing...they said "We wanna back Ottomans"."We wanna see peace in Middle East". Why? u must look at "history"

5-There s only one country in the world who respect Jews,who agree them to live in their homeland.It is Ottomans,it s Turkey

6-Why had Armenians lived with Turks during 800 years in peace? and suddenly broke in WW1? please plase answer me honestly.



regards (respect true history,historians - not politicians)

[Kontra1]

Why did almost everyone recognize the attrocites? Do we all hate Turkey so much? Is everyone wrong and Turkey so right?
Mercy! p-)

Haha..why?? here is your answer.If you read what other people posted you would't ask questions like this ;)

fdt wrote:
Noone can tell to what extent it is revisionism or not... as long as the FACTS are established in trustworthy manner. For me this and many other such historical issues are just a playground for politicians who by definition are interested in historical tragedies exploitations for short term political issues

" such historical issues are just a playground for politicians who by definition are interested in historical tragedies exploitations for short term political issues "

That's why...

Besides, all the links you've given above are by armanians and biased of course.

Clearday my friend, You actually don't need to explain anything to these people...at least not them.You know where they stand and they're aware of the real truth as much as you are. For them, the armenians didn't colobrated with the enemy and stabbed you in the back...to them they were just reclaiming their imaginary country back :). If they were so concerned about killing of innocent people, they'd at least comment to my post about armenian massacare of azeris...which happened recently, ..but no...they're just relatives of Turks and it's much more interested to accuse people of things that happened almost a 100 years ago. How convient for our greek friends :)



Kontra1

[Clearday-TRForce]

HOW THE ARMENIAN ISSUE CAME ABOUT
FACTORS LEADING TO THE CREATION OF THE ISSUE



Following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, with the encouragement of Russia, Britain, France and the Empire of Austria-Hungary, the nations which constituted the empire started struggling for liberation and they were successful. These developments set examples for the Armenians, as well. With financial and moral help of the countries, which wanted to dissolve the Ottoman Empire, they started rebellions in some regions. In this way, in the second half of the 19th century, an “Armenian question” came into being.

During this period, the former Empire of Russia, which emerged gradually as an important state, accepted the Ottoman territories as a natural area of expansion through Ottoman territories and it possessed the goal of opening out to warm seas. In order to achieve this goal, its primary means was to make war. Beside this, it played the role of being the protector of the Christian communities under the Ottoman rule. On the other hand, the main powers of the period, Britain and France also aimed at securing the Armenians for Protestantism and Catholicism. In the framework of these goals, they established the Armenian Catholic Church in 1830, and the Armenian Protestant Church in 1847 in Istanbul. The real intention of this interest for the Ottoman Armenians and other Christian communities shown by Britain and France and Russia was to intervene in the interior affairs of the Ottoman State and dissolve the empire.

These powers promised Armenians the establishment of the Armenian State in Eastern Anatolia. However, in the period in question the Armenian population in the region constituted only 15% of the general population. For instance, in Bitlis, where they populated mostly, they were not even 1/3 of the population of the province. The starting point for the “Armenian question” is Hagia Stephanos Agreement and Berlin Conference, signed at the end of the 1877-78 Ottoman-Russian war. The 16th article of Hagia StephanosAgreement, which the Ottoman State had to accept is as follows:

“Because the evacuation of the regions in Armenia, which are under the occupation of the Russian Forces and ought to be rendered to Ottoman State, this might cause detrimental chaos in the friendly relations of the two states in these regions. The Ottoman State guarantees, without losing time, the redressing and arrangements required for the local interests in these provinces, where the Armenians live, and providing the security of the Armenians towards Kurds and Circassians.”

Although in principle this provision of the agreement did not exactly satisfy the Armenians, who wished to gain their independence, it is important to note that the "Armenian question" was recorded in an international document and the region called "Armenia" was mentioned for the first time in history. Also, in 1878, the 61st article of the Berlin Agreement, which was signed at the end of the Berlin Congress, replaced the 16th article of the Hagia Stephanos Agreement and it is as follows:

"The Ottoman State guarantees, without losing time, the redressing and arrangement that are required by the local interests in the provinces, where the Armenians live, and providing peace and security of the Armenians towards Kurds and Circassians. And since it shall notify the concerned states about these precautions, these states shall monitor the implementation of these precautions.”

With this provision of the Berlin Agreement, the foreign powers were recognised the right of intervention to the Turco-Armenian relations.


Achilles,I forget something to ask you.Please honestly answer me;

Nazi had a genocide to Jews.No doubt.No controversial.All accept.
U said Ottomans had a genocide to Armenians.But all historians,politicans discuss.Coz they dont know it s true or not.WHY?


regards (respect true history-historians,not politicians)

[achilles]

Why did almost everyone recognize the attrocites? Do we all hate Turkey so much? Is everyone wrong and Turkey so right?
Mercy! p-)

Haha..why?? here is your answer.If you read what other people posted you would't ask questions like this ;)

fdt wrote:
Noone can tell to what extent it is revisionism or not... as long as the FACTS are established in trustworthy manner. For me this and many other such historical issues are just a playground for politicians who by definition are interested in historical tragedies exploitations for short term political issues

" such historical issues are just a playground for politicians who by definition are interested in historical tragedies exploitations for short term political issues "

That's why...

Besides, all the links you've given above are by armanians and biased of course.

Clearday my friend, You actually don't need to explain anything to these people...at least not them.You know where they stand and they're aware of the real truth as much as you are. For them, the armenians didn't colobrated with the enemy and stabbed you in the back...to them they were just reclaiming their imaginary country back :). If they were so concerned about killing of innocent people, they'd at least comment to my post about armenian massacare of azeris...which happened recently, ..but no...they're just relatives of Turks and it's much more interested to accuse people of things that happened almost a 100 years ago. How convient for our greek friends :)



Kontra1

Splendid...a compilation of other people's posts, bull****, trolling and nonsense. Needless to say that sources like journals from Yale univeristy or anything similar are not biased because you say so. As i have said, i rest my case with lying little faggies like yourself. If fdt said something to me, let me and fdt talk about it. Your trolling is completely redundant ;)

How is the cousin from Norway doin'?

[Corvus]

1-Why do many Armenians still live in Turkey?Why do they choose to live here?

I can't talk for other people. But... how many are still living in Turkey? 50,000? How many lived there before the genocide? Approx. 2.5 million? Approx 1.5 million died, the rest fled to all over the world. Why?



3-There s only one muslim man in the world,who built up a church for Ethnic people. Do you know who is he? He s a sultan of Ottoman.It means This country has full of tolerance for all people.

Oh that proves that nothing ever happened then, I'll take your word for it.




4-Do you know Algerian President recently want thing from Turkish President in the front of media?

Amazing...they said "We wanna back Ottomans"."We wanna see peace in Middle East". Why? u must look at "history"


Another great contribution to this great thread.
The thing is, Armenians never asked to be Ottomans. And I think most people would laugh at the idea that the Ottoman Empire brought "peace" to anywhere.


5-There s only one country in the world who respect Jews,who agree them to live in their homeland.It is Ottomans,it s Turkey

That's great. Israel also does not officially recognize what happened to be Genocide, which I find quite ironic. But ofcourse that has nothing to do with politics does it? ;)


6-Why had Armenians lived with Turks during 800 years in peace? and suddenly broke in WW1? please plase answer me honestly.

Peace? What peace? You conquer a proud people and rule over their lands nad you call that peace? Friendship?
WW1 and the Russian Army brought a glimmer of hope of liberation, of freedom from the Ottomans and of safety. 1915 was just the culmination, there were many massacres before.
I love how there are people who try to justify what happened by saying that some Armenians were hoping to create an Armenian homeland in North Eastern Turkey and that they were desserting the Ottoman army to join Russian units. Do you blame them for wanting their land back and to rid themselves of barbarian tyrants?

But it's ok, you Turks keep living in your world of denial, the rest of the world isn't.

[Kontra1]

Haha.. I wonder what could you be referring to if you didn't have your "google" and we were to disguss this face to face..(God..how I wish that could come true) ;)


Kontra1

[gaijinsamurai]

The Armenian genocide was a historical fact. I know people whose entire families were murdered.
Armenians who have spent considerable time in Turkey have told me that it is not a safe place for them. Most who were not murdered or driven into exile had to convert to Islam, and live clandestinely, in fear for their lives. Despite the fact that Armenians lived in present-day Turkey from time immemorial, there are no significant Armenian communities left in that country.

[BigBaribal]

Hey, even the Alevis have trouble in Turkey, so you can imagine how it goes for Christian religions there.

[Clearday-TRForce]

The Armenian genocide was a historical fact. I know people whose entire families were murdered.
Armenians who have spent considerable time in Turkey have told me that it is not a safe place for them. Most who were not murdered or driven into exile had to convert to Islam, and live clandestinely, in fear for their lives. Despite the fact that Armenians lived in present-day Turkey from time immemorial, there are no significant Armenian communities left in that country.


:D u said "I know" how much historical? :D

[gaijinsamurai]

????????

[Clearday-TRForce]

Nazis had made a genocide to Jews.No doubt.No controversial.All accept.
U said Ottomans had made a genocide to Armenians.But all historians,politicans discuss.Coz they dont know it s true or not.


WHY?



regards (respect true history,not lies from politicians)

[gaijinsamurai]

I was married to an Armenian for almost five years. Her grandfather was the only one from his family to survive. I doubt he made everything up!

[Corvus]

Nazis had made a genocide to Jews.No doubt.No controversial.All accept.
U said Ottomans had made a genocide to Armenians.But all historians,politicans discuss.Coz they dont know it s true or not.


WHY?



regards (respect true history,not lies from politicians)

No, only Turks, those on Turkish payrolls and people who have more to gain by keeping their ties with Turkey the way they are "discuss". Everyone else accepts.

If post-WWII Germany had denied everything, and still denied everything, it would be similar situation in terms of the Holocaust as it is with the Armenian genocide.

:roll:

[Clearday-TRForce]

I was married to an Armenian for almost five years. Her grandfather was the only one from his family to survive. I doubt he made everything up!


but,it means "it s nothing about history" true?
such as I can easily give u documents from British,Russian,Ottoman archieves. But Do u know why Armenian archieves close today to the world? They had played a "bet",they supposed they would take some regions of Turkey with the helping of Russians and British,France.But they lost,and now they flame due to their economical issues?

Please honestly could u say something to me?

If were they Muslims? do you continue this claims again today?
(I emotionally say a big "NO")


regards (respect true history-historians)

[Hunterhr]

Skinheads say the holocaust never happened. That doesn't make them right either.

Face it, around 1.5 million Armenians were murdered. Nothing's going to change that.

If I were you, I'd accept it and move on.

[gaijinsamurai]

Don't assume too much, Clearday! If you will care to take the time to check my other posts, you will find that I have spent quite a lot of time defending Muslims, especially Palestinians living under the occupation of your new friends, the Israelis!

[Clearday-TRForce]

Nazis had made a genocide to Jews.No doubt.No controversial.All accept.
U said Ottomans had made a genocide to Armenians.But all historians,politicans discuss.Coz they dont know it s true or not.


WHY?



regards (respect true history,not lies from politicians)

No, only Turks, those on Turkish payrolls and people who have more to gain by keeping their ties with Turkey the way they are "discuss". Everyone else accepts.

If post-WWII Germany had denied everything, and still denied everything, it would be similar situation in terms of the Holocaust as it is with the Armenian genocide.

:roll:


BUT DO U KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TODAY? LET ME SAY LET ME SAY...

THE PRESIDENT BUSH HASNT SAID A "GENOCIDE" happened by TURKS.
WHY? coz it spolitical? when I posted a historians,u again say "u dont know"...Coz U dont look at with ur brain and eyes,u look at with emotions...


well,I give u documents. What will u give me back? a photo? some emotional thing?

where s ur respect to the global values such as historians?


regards.

[Clearday-TRForce]

EMOTIONS EMOTIONS...

ARMENIANS ARE CHRISTIANS...AND U BACK THEM FOR NOTHING,U DONT KNOW ANYTHING...U ONLY FLAME HERE...NO MORE...AND TAKE UR SAME RELIGIOUS MAN REVIEWS...



1.2 Sir Mark Sykes, The Caliph's Last Heritage, London 1915:


As for the tactics of the revolutionaries, anything more fiendish one could not imagine - The assassination of Moslems in order to bring about the punishment of innocent men, the midnight extortion of money from villages which have just paid their taxes by day, the murder of persons who refuse to contribute to their collection boxes, are only some of the crimes of which Moslems, Catholics and Gregorians accuse them with no uncertain voice. The Armenian revolutionaries prefer to plunder their co-religionists to giving battle to their enemies; the anarchists of Constantinople throw bombs with the intention of provoking a massacre of their fellow-countrymen.

If the object of English philanthropists and the roving brigands (who are the active agents of revolution) is to subject the bulk of eastern provinces to the tender mercies of an Armenian oligarchy, then I cannot entirely condemn the fanatic outbreaks of the Moslems or the repressive measures of the Turkish Government. On the other hand, if the object of the Armenians is to secure equality before law and the maintenance of security and peace in the countries partly inhabited by Armenians, then I can only say that their methods are not those calculated to achieve success (p. 409).

1.3 William A. Langer, The Diplomacy of Imperialism, New York, 1960:


Revolutionary placards were being posted in the cities and there were not a few cases of the blackmailing of wealthy Armenians, who were forced to contribute to the cause. Europeans in Turkey were agreed that the immediate aim of the agitators was to incite disorder, bring about inhuman reprisals and so provoke the intervention of the powers. For that reason, it was said, they operated by preference in areas where the Armenians were in a hopeless minority, so that reprisals would be certain. One of the revolutionaries told Dr. Hamlin, the founder of Robert College, that the Hunchak bands would "watch their opportunity to kill Turks and Kurds, set fire to their villages, and then make their escape into the mountains. The enraged Moslems will then rise, and fall upon the defenseless Armenians and slaughter them with such barbarity that Russia will enter in the name of humanity and Christian civilization and take possession". When the horrified missionary denounced the scheme as atrocious and infernal beyond anything ever known, he received this reply: "It appears so to you, no doubt; but we Armenians have determined to be free. Europe listened to the Bulgarian horrors and made Bulgaria free. She will listen to our cry when it goes up in the shrieks and blood of millions of women and children. We shall do it" (p. 157).

1.4 Sydney Whitman, Turkish Memories, London 1914:


Shortly after the news had spread to Europe of the attack on the Ottoman Bank and the subsequent massacre of Armenians, a number of artists of illustrated newspapers arrived in Constantinople, commissioned to supply the demand for atrocities of the Million-headed-Tyrant. Among these was the late Mr. Melton Prior, the renowned war correspondent. He was a man of strenuous and determined temperament, one not accustomed to be the sport of circumstances but to rise superior to them. Whether he was called upon to take part in a forced march or to face a mad Mullah, he invariable held his own and came off victorious. But in this particular case, as he confided to me, he was in an awkward predicament. The public at home had heard of nameless atrocities and was anxious to receive pictorial representations of these. The difficulty was how to supply them with what they wanted, as the dead Armenians had been buried and no women or children had suffered hurt and no Armenian church had be!
en desecrated. As an old admirer of the Turks and as an honest man, he declined to invent what he had not witnessed. But others were not equally scrupulous. I subsequently saw an Italian illustrated newspaper containing harrowing pictures of women and children being massacred in a church. (p. 29)

"Do you believe that any massacres would have taken place if no Armenian revolutionaries had come into the country and incited the Armenian population to rebellion?" I asked Mr. Graves (The British Consul).

"Certainly not" he replied. "I do not believe that a single Armenian would have been killed". (p. 70)



1.5 Sir Edwin Pears, Forty Years in Constantinople, London 1915:

Under such circumstances the revolt of a handful of Armenians had not a chance of success and was therefore unjustifiable. As a friend to the Armenians, revolt seemed to me purely mischievous. Some of the extremists declared that while they recognized that hundreds of innocent persons suffered from each of these attempts, they could provoke a big massacre which would bring in foreign intervention. Such intervention was useless so long as Russia was hostile. Lord Salisbury had publicly declared that as he could not get a fleet over the Taurus mountains he did not see how England could help the Armenians, much as he sympathized with them (p. 155).




regards (respect true history-historians,not politicians)

[Clearday-TRForce]

well u use some "emotional" sentences but u dont post any "documents"
I post here some "British,Russia,Ottoman" archieves? so where are ur claims? share ur documents please,dont emotions...I know Armenians are Christians. I respect,but service to reality,service to truth.


Dixon-Johnson, The Armenians, Blackburn 1916:

The advent of these revolutionary agents into Kurdistan had the inevitable result of embittering the former good relations of the Turkish Government and the resident Moslem population with the Christians and especially the Orthodox Armenian section of the inhabitants. This was natural for the reason that in Turkey the people have a horror of secret societies and plots, founded on the experience of their own suffering at the hands of the Greek Hetairia and the Bulgarian Komitadjis. The fears of the Turks and the Kurds were genuine. They believed that the members of the once loyal 'millet-i sadika' (the loyal nation) no longer merited the title and that they were arming and preparing to massacre the Moslems. The whole country became like a powder magazine (p. 24).


Clair Price, The Rebirth of Turkey, New York 1923:

Under the 1908 Constitution, the Enver Government had a right to mobilize Armenians of military age as well as Turks, but armed opposition broke out at once, notably at Zeitun..Along the eastern frontier, Armenians began deserting to the Russian Armies and the Enver Government, distrusting the loyalties of those who remained, removed them from the combatant force and formed them into labour gangs.

In April, Lord Bryce and the "Friends of Armenia" in London appealed for funds to equip these volunteers and Russia also was presumable not uninterested in them.These volunteer bands finally captured Van, one of the eastern provincial capitals late in April and having massacred the Turkish population, they surrendered what remained of the city to the Russian Armies in June. The news from Van affected the Turks precisely as the news from Smyrna affected them when the Greeks landed there in May 1919. The rumour immediately ran through Asia Minor that the Armenians had risen.


By this time, the military situation had turned sharply against the Enver Government. The Russian victory at Sarikamis was developing and streams of Turkish refugees were pouring westward into central Asia minor. The British had launched their Dardanelles campaign at the very gates of Constantinople and Bulgaria had not yet come in. It does not seem reasonable to assume that this moment, of all moments, would have been chosen by the Enver Government to take widespread measures against its Armenians unless it was believed that such measures were immediately necessary. Measures were taken (pages 86-87).


1.8 Felix Valyi, Revolutions in Islam, London 1925:

In April the Armenian revolutionaries seized the town of Van, established an Armenian "General Staff" there under the command of Aram and Vardan, which delivered up the town to the Russian troops on the 6th of May, after having freed the district of Van from Mohammedans.

Amongst the most notorious of the Armenian chiefs was Karekin Pastermadjian, a former member of the Turkish Parliament , known by the name of 'Garo' who put himself at the head of the Armenian volunteers at the time of the opening of hostilities between Turkey and Russia and the Turks accuse him of having set fire to all the Mussulman villages he found on his way and of massacring their inhabitants. It is known that the attempts made by Turkey to win the support of the "Dashnakzoutioun" party against Russia at the beginning of the war were repulsed in the month of September 1914, by the Armenian Congress at Erzurum, which declared itself 'neutral'. Nevertheless, the thousands of Russian bombs and muskets which were found in the hands of its members prove what this neutrality meant. And indeed the Turks attribute the Russian invasion of the north of Asia Minor to the behaviour of the Armenian bands whose attitude made the defence of the country exceedingly difficult (pages 233-234).



Niles, Emory and Sutherland, Arthur, U.S. 867.00/1005, Princeton, 11 October 1919:

(Captain Emory Niles and Mr. Arthur Sutherland were Americans ordered by the United States Government in 1919 to investigate the situation in eastern Anatolia.)

In the entire region from Bitlis through Van to Bayezit we were informed that the damage and destruction had been done by the Armenians, who, after the Russians retired, remained in occupation of the country and who, when the Turkish army advanced, destroyed everything belonging to the Musulmans. Moreover, the Armenians are accused of having committed murder, rape arson and horrible atrocities of every description upon the Musulman population. At first we were most incredulous of these stories, but we finally came to believe them, since the testimony was absolutely unanimous and was corroborated by material evidence. For instance, the only quarters left at all intact in the cities of Bitlis and Van are the Armenian quarters, as was evidenced by churches and inscriptions on the houses, while the Musulman quarters were completely destroyed. Villages said to have been Armenian were still standing whereas Musulman villages were completely destroyed.



regards (respect true history-historians,not lies)

[mi35d]

And somehow, always, the US gets dragged through the mud.

1 million APACHES??? Where in the world are you digging up your information???

I'm sure you would have said, "Cherokees" if you had watched more than one John Wayne movie.

[Nikitaras]

I see the jag off Turk holocaust apologists are out in force today. You guys really ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

Oh and Clearday, I told you about posting articles from Justin McCarthy. I provided you info on him in another thread which was proof that he is not an objective source but a paid agent of the Turkish government.

You guys can take all your apologist BS and shove it up you genocide denying a$$es. The Armenian people have suffered a terrible atrocity and all they want is recognition that this horror actually did take place.

As an aside, I think that given this week is the commemoration it shows how particularly disgusting and distasteful your denials, fabrications and history revisionism are.

But I suppose this turkish saying sums it all up: Ya Tam Susturacağız, Ya Kan Kusturacağız!

[Nikitaras]

And somehow, always, the US gets dragged through the mud.

1 million APACHES??? Where in the world are you digging up your information???

I'm sure you would have said, "Cherokees" if you had watched more than one John Wayne movie.

Actually 8,000 Cherokee died during 'The Trail of Tears". If you really want to get into the numbers, since 1499 and the colonization of the New World. The death that was visited on the Native Americans by the Europeans, Colonialist and Americans makes other genocides pale in comparison.

[Kontra1]

Whohaaa!!! look at these vultures...where have you all been hiding?? Why don't you "without colors" be brave and show them,so I can pull your skeletons out of YOUR closets...you're "civilized" and you shouldn't have anything to be afraid of right?


I can't talk for other people. But... how many are still living in Turkey? 50,000? How many lived there before the genocide? Approx. 2.5 million? Approx 1.5 million died, the rest fled to all over the world. Why?

I could quote many more but I'll use this to represent all of you and your "logig" and depth of your knowledge.

armenians started out with the pop. 3 million when they declared independence...now there are less than 2....so are you all going to write fictious history in 90 years again and blame it on us??It wouldn't suprise me a bit if I lived to see that... :roll:

Clearday my friend...you've seen it now?? they wouldn't turn around to see if 70 mil. Turks was being massacared in Turkey present day. You got to remember the old saying "Tail Pain"...they have 400 years of it and it's been only 90 years so far. They need another 390 years to forget it...if they ever will.

In any case...I'm glad to see y'all havent forgot it yet...just remember to push your anti-Turk propaganda around.


Kontra1

[Kontra1]

Skinheads say the holocaust never happened. That doesn't make them right either.

Face it, around 1.5 million Armenians were murdered. Nothing's going to change that.

If I were you, I'd accept it and move on.

Look at him...he's making a good use of his second post...what a loyality.

You'd probably accept it easier bacause you're probably from a nation in europe which already has such things in it's consicience...(name me one that hasn't) oh....but they were taking their civilization to the primitive people right...sorry :roll:


Kontra1

[Nikitaras]

I can easily give u documents from British,Russian,Ottoman archieves. But Do u know why Armenian archieves close today to the world? They had played a "bet",they supposed they would take some regions of Turkey with the helping of Russians and British,France.But they lost,and now they flame due to their economical issues?



Clearday peddle your apologist propaganda and lies elsewhere. Cilvilized people will not put up with your nationalist delusions.

The most recent move by the Turkish government in this regard was for Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and the head of the main opposition party Deniz Baykal to hold a press conference in March 2005 inviting Armenian historians to meet with historians from Turkey to find out what happened - and called on Armenia to open its archives. This was met with a response from the Armenian Foreign minister that the world already knew what happened, and that Armenia's archives were always open.

Turkey has never established diplomatic relations with Armenia and has closed its land borders with Armenia. Armenia has declared repeatedly it is ready for relations and an open border without preconditions.

You have now been proven to be a liar as well as a delusinal ultranationalist.

[Nikitaras]

Here are the names of some true Turkish patriots who do not deny the genocide committed by thr Young Turks.

There are a number of Turkish scholars who support the theses of genocide, including turkish historians Ragip Zarakolu and Ali Ertem, as well as Taner Akçam and Halil Berktay. Despite being protested strongly by some Turkish nationalists. Orhan Pamuk, a famous Turkish novelist, has also recently told the swiss press that he believes that a million Armenians and 30,000 kurds were killed in Turkey.

[achilles]

It is somewhat entertaining to see the Turks furious for not being able to support in any reasonable way their delusional claims...

Sorry guys...there has been such a thing as a Jewish genocide...there has been such a thing as an Armenian genocide. As someone else said...swallow it, learn to live with it and move on...



you're "civilized" and you shouldn't have anything to be afraid of right?

Usually people who have not slaughtered more than 1 million human beings have a minimal chance of being called civilized. Not the Turks 90 years ago, not the Hutus in Rwanda 11 years ago.

[Nikitaras]

"Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" – Adolf Hitler<<<<KKKontra and Clearday's spiritual Father

"When the Turkish authorities gave the orders for these deportations, they were merely giving the death warrant to a whole race; they understood this well, and, in their conversations with me, they made no particular attempt to conceal the fact. ... I am confident that the whole history of the human race contains no such horrible episode as this. The great massacres and persecutions of the past seem almost insignificant when compared to the sufferings of the Armenian race in 1915." - Henry Morgenthau Sr., U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire

[achilles]

Achilles,I forget something to ask you.Please honestly answer me;

Nazi had a genocide to Jews.No doubt.No controversial.All accept.
U said Ottomans had a genocide to Armenians.But all historians,politicans discuss.Coz they dont know it s true or not.WHY?

Its very simple. The Jewish genocide is a fact. Too many people have tried to deny it. The Armenian genocide is a fact. Again, too many people have tried to deny it. But, hey, it is a fact again. Taking a closer look at my previous posts, and leaving your prejudices aside for a moment, will tell you the truth.

The fact that you deny it so passionately is very disturbing i must say. I didnt expect anything better from the grey wolf from Norway rofl , but i cannot say the same for you. You dissappointed the goddess of truth once more, mate. ;)

[Kontra1]

Haha..you guys are so full of BS with your 110% biased links...just pathetic rofl

Man.... I wish one of those EU countries hold their referandum on Turkey's membership during or the day after all this "genocide" BS thing...better yet...I wish they had one tomorrow :)


Kontra1

[Kontra1]

The Armenian genocide is a fact. Again, too many people have tried to deny it. But, hey, it is a fact again. Taking a closer look at my previous posts, and leaving your prejudices aside for a moment, will tell you the truth.

You dissappointed the goddess of truth once more, mate. ;)

You will NEVER EVER make Turkey accept it was a genocide.Even the modest clearday's attitude tells you that....wakey, wakey :)

Just keep on pushing...our withdrawel of EU bid coming pretty soon. These people you say they admitted, they're bunch of useless people for my country and they'll do anything to join EU. When things go our way...you guys can have them.They'll have to leave the country anyways ;)



Kontra!

[Javehn]

Want to hear the truth about Armenian genocide ? Here is a story from other era .

In 1991 , I've seen people got burned inside oil barrels on the streets by Azeri nationalists , just because of single crime , they were Armenians . My relatives were almost burned allive just because our last name sounds somewhat Armenian . Churches were ruined , people got stabbed and shot . Azeri nationalists were shouting "Karabax bizim torpax" and "we will finnish what the our brothers Turks started with you" .

I haven't lost respect for Azeri and Turks from that time and I still hold a respect for them . But after seeing that ...I don't know what to think , specialy after Azeries claimed there were no genocide of the Armenians .

I'm sincerely sorry to hear you experienced someting like this first hand.Yes, it could be problem if they thought you were armenian. 20 % of azerbaycan(including Karabag) is under the armenian occupation for decades now..many were killed, about 1 million azeris are driven away from their land(BTW,this is still like this today)

In 1992 they've massacared the people of "Hocali"

http://www.diplomaticobserver.com/news_read.asp?id=1167

You've mentioned you were there 1991 but things led to "Hocali" massacare probably started before that.

One would easly get the same impression as you did unaware of the situation. But if you were aware of everything and choose not to mention it in your post, then you gave a very good example of how one can tell one story biased and different.

Kontra1

Ahşamınız heyir , dost . Bağışlayın ... But I know what happened at Hocali . Armenians have done some nasty **** as well . But from what I've saw , I know who were the agressors and who were the reactors . And the agressors were the Azeries , what they performed is not deniable . As the same about the Armenian slaughter by Turks . Every nation have a dark part in it's history , it would be justice to acknowledge it and promice it will never come back . To try and revision it would be a wrong thing to do .
I respect Turks and I wouldn't want to lose respect over it .

One love . Bir mëhëbët :) .

http://www.nahostfocus.de/img/Nahost/Tuerkei/TurkeyIsraelFlag.jpghttp://www.ksafe.com/profiles/graphics/flags/azeri.gif

[Nikitaras]

The Armenian genocide is a fact. Again, too many people have tried to deny it. But, hey, it is a fact again. Taking a closer look at my previous posts, and leaving your prejudices aside for a moment, will tell you the truth.

You dissappointed the goddess of truth once more, mate. ;)

You will NEVER EVER make Turkey accept it was a genocide.Even the modest clearday's attitude tells you that....wakey, wakey :)

Just keep on pushing...our withdrawel of EU bid coming pretty soon. These people you say they admitted, they're bunch of useless people for my country and they'll do anything to join EU. When things go our way...you guys can have them.They'll have to leave the country anyways ;)



Kontra!

You know looking at the attitudes of the Turks that post here. That sounds like a good idea KKKontra. I am starting to hope that the Europeans don't let you in. It a shame to be thinking like that since all the Turks I've ever met in my life seemed to be good people, not Grey Wolves and genocide apologists.

Perhaps Turkey needs a little international ostracizing. That way KKKontra will have his wish of establishing Turkic Turan as an isolationist sh*thole.

[Kontra1]

Ahşamınız heyir , dost . Bağışlayın ... But I know what happened at Hocali . Armenians have done some nasty **** as well . But from what I've saw , I know who were the agressors and who were the reactors . And the agressors were the Azeries , what they performed is not deniable . As the same about the Armenian slaughter by Turks . Every nation have a dark part in it's history , it would be justice to acknowledge it and promice it will never come back . To try and revision it would be a wrong thing to do .
I respect Turks and I wouldn't want to lose respect over it .

One love . Bir mëhëbët :) .

Hayirli aksamlar.

let me see if I understand you correct..and correct me if I'm wrong.

Are you're saying that the azeris were agressors(for trying to take their lost land back...just like armenians tried) and azeris were butchered b/o trying this...and they deserved it...are you saying this?? if so...why can't you use the same logic for armenians in Turkey??

I really look forward to your explanation.

Sen azerisin?

Kontra1

[achilles]

The Armenian genocide is a fact. Again, too many people have tried to deny it. But, hey, it is a fact again. Taking a closer look at my previous posts, and leaving your prejudices aside for a moment, will tell you the truth.

You dissappointed the goddess of truth once more, mate. ;)

You will NEVER EVER make Turkey accept it was a genocide.

Gotcha! You will not admit it but you didnt say it didnt happen, hey? ;)

Even the modest clearday's attitude tells you that....wakey, wakey :)

Just keep on pushing...our withdrawel of EU bid coming pretty soon. These people you say they admitted, they're bunch of useless people for my country and they'll do anything to join EU. When things go our way...you guys can have them.They'll have to leave the country anyways ;)

Kontra!

*sigh*
I decided to totally ignore you because you are the definition of 'wasting time' but i cent help it. You are just entertaining. :lol: Now you are just babbling incoherent anti-EU nonsense etc etc etc.

You wont admit it? :lol: Will you remind me to give a **** about that in a couple of weeks?

You are not gonna join the EU? Let me put that on my 'to-give-a-****'
agenda in a couple of months cause i might be a little busy.

Noone is gonna loose his sleep if you dont join the EU and noone will get too excited if you do. ;) Dont exaggerate the importance of Turkey, memet (i am not saying your country, because your country is Norway...how is the cousin doing?). You are just another 'candidate' and a very far fetched one.
After i made clear that deep down i dont give a **** about your membership, i must say that i would like you in just in case you stop busting our balls with your aggressivenes and give our military budgets a great burden. But frankly, i dont think you will make it. Not before a good number of decades. You just dont have what it takes, and it is very likely that you will not get what it takes...

If you hate the EU so much, why dont you go back to your village and help your people out? But Norway is cool isnt it? Sweden is also cool...FInland as well...guess what...the EU is cool and we both know it, memet. Trying to make it look as if you dont care is rather unfortunate. You have lost the last drop of credibility long time ago.

And you are so stuck, memet. You keep saying that the sources we are providing here are biased.

Where are YOUR credible, totally unbiased and absolutely objective sources? I am LONGING for them you Norwegian sweety
:hug:

The website that Clearday has posted? No thanx i ll pass :lol:

[Kontra1]

You know looking at the attitudes of the Turks that post here. That sounds like a good idea KKKontra. I am starting to hope that the Europeans don't let you in. It a shame to be thinking like that since all the Turks I've ever met in my life seemed to be good people, not Grey Wolves and genocide apologists.

Good...I'm glad to see I'm coming through finally.

Nothing...absolutelly NOTHING can be more attractive than Turkey's national interests for us Turks.

Just forget the Turan and expension thing....we'll be busy trying to behold what we have.

Kontra1

[Kontra1]

The Armenian genocide is a fact. Again, too many people have tried to deny it. But, hey, it is a fact again. Taking a closer look at my previous posts, and leaving your prejudices aside for a moment, will tell you the truth.

You dissappointed the goddess of truth once more, mate. ;)

You will NEVER EVER make Turkey accept it was a genocide.

Gotcha! You will not admit it but you didnt say it didnt happen, hey? ;)

Even the modest clearday's attitude tells you that....wakey, wakey :)

Just keep on pushing...our withdrawel of EU bid coming pretty soon. These people you say they admitted, they're bunch of useless people for my country and they'll do anything to join EU. When things go our way...you guys can have them.They'll have to leave the country anyways ;)

Kontra!

*sigh*
I decided to totally ignore you because you are the definition of 'wasting time' but i cent help it. You are just entertaining. :lol: Now you are just babbling incoherent anti-EU nonsense etc etc etc.

You wont admit it? :lol: Will you remind me to give a **** about that in a couple of weeks?

You are not gonna join the EU? Let me put that on my 'to-give-a-****'
agenda in a couple of months cause i might be a little busy.

Noone is gonna loose his sleep if you dont join the EU and noone will get too excited if you do. ;) Dont exaggerate the importance of Turkey, memet (i am not saying your country, because your country is Norway...how is the cousin doing?). You are just another 'candidate' and a very far fetched one.
After i made clear that deep down i dont give a **** about your membership, i must say that i would like you in just in case you stop busting our balls with your aggressivenes and give our military budgets a great burden. But frankly, i dont think you will make it. Not before a good number of decades. You just dont have what it takes, and it is very likely that you will not get what it takes...

If you hate the EU so much, why dont you go back to your village and help your people out? But Norway is cool isnt it? Sweden is also cool...FInland as well...guess what...the EU is cool and we both know it, memet. Trying to make it look as if you dont care is rather unfortunate. You have lost the last drop of credibility long time ago.

And you are so stuck, memet. You keep saying that the sources we are providing here are biased.

Where are YOUR credible, totally unbiased and absolutely objective sources? I am LONGING for them you Norwegian sweety
:hug:

The website that Clearday has posted? No thanx i ll pass :lol:

Haha..your self centered ego kicks in again I see. So stuck in the past that you can't even imagine one of us can actually travel in your civilizied europe...get a life little boy. Gimme your address...I'll send you a post card fom Turkey in a month's time...better yet, I can come and visit you on my way there and we can have some ouzo together...huh??

Kontra1

[Nikitaras]

You know looking at the attitudes of the Turks that post here. That sounds like a good idea KKKontra. I am starting to hope that the Europeans don't let you in. It a shame to be thinking like that since all the Turks I've ever met in my life seemed to be good people, not Grey Wolves and genocide apologists.

Good...I'm glad to see I'm coming through finally.

Nothing...absolutelly NOTHING can be more attractive than Turkey's national interests for us Turks.

Just forget the Turan and expension thing....we'll be busy trying to behold what we have.

Kontra1

Hey you left the isolationist sh*thole part out(the key point in my thesis)

How do you expect me to forget Turan its the Grey Wolves goal.

[Nikitaras]

The Armenian genocide is a fact. Again, too many people have tried to deny it. But, hey, it is a fact again. Taking a closer look at my previous posts, and leaving your prejudices aside for a moment, will tell you the truth.

You dissappointed the goddess of truth once more, mate. ;)

You will NEVER EVER make Turkey accept it was a genocide.

Gotcha! You will not admit it but you didnt say it didnt happen, hey? ;)

Even the modest clearday's attitude tells you that....wakey, wakey :)

Just keep on pushing...our withdrawel of EU bid coming pretty soon. These people you say they admitted, they're bunch of useless people for my country and they'll do anything to join EU. When things go our way...you guys can have them.They'll have to leave the country anyways ;)

Kontra!

*sigh*
I decided to totally ignore you because you are the definition of 'wasting time' but i cent help it. You are just entertaining. :lol: Now you are just babbling incoherent anti-EU nonsense etc etc etc.

You wont admit it? :lol: Will you remind me to give a **** about that in a couple of weeks?

You are not gonna join the EU? Let me put that on my 'to-give-a-****'
agenda in a couple of months cause i might be a little busy.

Noone is gonna loose his sleep if you dont join the EU and noone will get too excited if you do. ;) Dont exaggerate the importance of Turkey, memet (i am not saying your country, because your country is Norway...how is the cousin doing?). You are just another 'candidate' and a very far fetched one.
After i made clear that deep down i dont give a **** about your membership, i must say that i would like you in just in case you stop busting our balls with your aggressivenes and give our military budgets a great burden. But frankly, i dont think you will make it. Not before a good number of decades. You just dont have what it takes, and it is very likely that you will not get what it takes...

If you hate the EU so much, why dont you go back to your village and help your people out? But Norway is cool isnt it? Sweden is also cool...FInland as well...guess what...the EU is cool and we both know it, memet. Trying to make it look as if you dont care is rather unfortunate. You have lost the last drop of credibility long time ago.

And you are so stuck, memet. You keep saying that the sources we are providing here are biased.

Where are YOUR credible, totally unbiased and absolutely objective sources? I am LONGING for them you Norwegian sweety
:hug:

The website that Clearday has posted? No thanx i ll pass :lol:

Haha..your self centered ego kicks in again I see. So stuck in the past that you can't even imagine one of us can actually travel in your civilizied europe...get a life little boy. Gimme your address...I'll send you a post card fom Turkey in a month's time...better yet, I can come and visit you on my way there and we can have some ouzo together...huh??

Kontra1

Please do go visit Grey Wolves are very popular in Athena. You can lecture the Greeks there on the proper techniques for killing unarmed protesters and also do some cross lecturing on genocide denial.

I think it would be quite hilarious to see you going back to Turkey with a bottle of Ouzo jammed up your a$$. rofl

[achilles]

Haha..your self centered ego kicks in again I see. So stuck in the past that you can't even imagine one of us can actually travel in your civilizied europe...get a life little boy. Gimme your address...I'll send you a post card fom Turkey in a month's time...better yet, I can come and visit you on my way there and we can have some ouzo together...huh??

Kontra1

Once more, no sources to back up anything. Hardly surprising. Anyway, so much i can do.

Now the get a 'life little boy' comment was way too profound for me so i ll just pass...

A postcard from Turkey? No i have seen enough ancient Greek temples where i am, kardes, but thanks anyway ;)

You know i have this weakness...i can never refuse a proposition for ouzo even if its coming from someone like you (Greek tamperamento you see).
So be my guest...we ll have our ouzo with some nice sea food and if you start being a smartass i ll just kick your ass....deal?

[Javehn]

Sen azerisin?

Yok (you guys say "Hair" instead I think :) ) , yok . Mën jahud .
Küçükken Bakide yaþadým . Besh sana .

Anyway , for that time , who is that land was just hipothetical question , but the things that have done for it weren't hipothetical .
I don't say that one side was right and the second was wrong . But I shure do know that if one side wouldn't start the mess , the second wouldn't have reacted .
That's all what makes the difference .

[achilles]

I think it would be quite hilarious to see you going back to Turkey with a bottle of Ouzo jammed up your a$$

you are such a Greek bastard rofl

[Nikitaras]

Haha..your self centered ego kicks in again I see. So stuck in the past that you can't even imagine one of us can actually travel in your civilizied europe...get a life little boy. Gimme your address...I'll send you a post card fom Turkey in a month's time...better yet, I can come and visit you on my way there and we can have some ouzo together...huh??

Kontra1

Once more, no sources to back up anything. Hardly surprising. Anyway, so much i can do.

Now the get a 'life little boy' comment was way too profound for me so i ll just pass...

A postcard from Turkey? No i have seen enough ancient Greek temples where i am, kardes, but thanks anyway ;)

You know i have this weakness...i can never refuse a proposition for ouzo even if its coming from someone like you (Greek tamperamento you see).
So be my guest...we ll have our ouzo with some nice sea food and if you start being a smartass i ll just kick your ass....deal?

See that Achilles you're too nice bro.

I wouldn't wait for him to be a smartass. I'd kick his ass, drink his ouzo, eat his seafood and steal his Norwegian girlfriend. I guess that would be my Greek temper coupled with my American attitude coming out rofl

[California Joe]

Kontra, you seem like Turkish version of Sixgun Symphony, an American asshole that was banned for being well....an asshole. You might want to find a Turkish military website to hang out at. You're a one trick pony here.

[Nikitaras]

Sen azerisin?

Yok (you guys say "Hair" instead I think :) ) , yok . Mën jahud .
Küçükken Bakide yaþadým . Besh sana .

Anyway , for that time , who is that land was just hipothetical question , but the things that have done for it weren't hipothetical .
I don't say that one side was right and the second was wrong . But I shure do know that if one side wouldn't start the mess , the second wouldn't have reacted .
That's all what makes the difference .

Maybe I'm not picking this up right so you may need to clarify this for me, but are you trying to say that the Armenians or Azeris kind of had it coming?

you are Israeli correct?

[achilles]

I guess that would be my Greek temper coupled with my American attitude coming out

:lol: :lol: I wouldnt want to witness such a graphic scene, Nikitara! :lol:

[achilles]

Sen azerisin?

Yok (you guys say "Hair" instead I think :) ) , yok . Mën jahud .
Küçükken Bakide yaþadým . Besh sana .

Anyway , for that time , who is that land was just hipothetical question , but the things that have done for it weren't hipothetical .
I don't say that one side was right and the second was wrong . But I shure do know that if one side wouldn't start the mess , the second wouldn't have reacted .
That's all what makes the difference .

Maybe I'm not picking this up right so you may need to clarify this for me, but are you trying to say that the Armenians or Azeris kind of had it coming?

you are Israeli correct?

Yes he is.

From what i understood, he means that the Armenians were on the defense and the Turks were playing offense. Please correct me if i am wrong.

[Nikitaras]

I guess that would be my Greek temper coupled with my American attitude coming out

:lol: :lol: I wouldnt want to witness such a graphic scene, Nikitara! :lol:


http://www.einsiders.com/reviews/dvd/images/sf1.jpg

rofl

[fdt]

Greeks don't like Turks... *yawn* What a surprise *yawn*. Is it a Greek vs Turks thread?

[Nikitaras]

Greeks don't like Turks... *yawn* What a surprise *yawn*. Is it a Greek vs Turks thread?

Noooo. Its a thread of genocide apologists vs people who want the truth to be told.

I don't like fanatical Turks who try and deny their forefathers' atrocities, but generally all the Turks I've ever met were decent people.

[Kontra1]

but generally all the Turks I've ever met were decent people.

Interesting..I think this is the second time you said this(if it wasn't the other malaka mentioned it also) I could easily dig out your comments how you put it just the opposite when dealing with clearday. So, shall I yell "liar,liar" now.


Kontra1

[Kontra1]

Kontra, you seem like Turkish version of Sixgun Symphony, an American asshole that was banned for being well....an asshole. You might want to find a Turkish military website to hang out at. You're a one trick pony here.


Hey...so they finally got you here huh.What's da matter... can't handle little opposition? had it too cosy bashing more moderate Turks?? do I have to take all kinds of sh*t to hang around here?

Have it your way...you bann me...you'll just prove exactly that.


Kontra1

[achilles]

but generally all the Turks I've ever met were decent people.

Interesting..I think this is the second time you said this(if it wasn't the other malaka mentioned it also) I could easily dig out your comments how you put it just the opposite when dealing with clearday. So, shall I yell "liar,liar" now.


Kontra1

I suppose you didnt pay attention to the warning you Norwegian sweetheart did you? Assholes sometimes get banned...and you sure fullfill all the criteria.

Now go and jerk it off with photos of decapitated Kurds and Armenians will you? ;)

[Kontra1]

But I shure do know that if one side wouldn't start the mess , the second wouldn't have reacted .
That's all what makes the difference .


Right...that's what we've been saying too. If we werent attack by armenians, sh*t wouldn't happen. BTW, I never said nothing happened...just not the way others put it(ref: check my earliest posts on the other thread)

Kontra1

[achilles]

But I shure do know that if one side wouldn't start the mess , the second wouldn't have reacted .
That's all what makes the difference .


Right...that's what we've been saying too. If we werent attack by armenians, sh*t wouldn't happen. BTW, I never said nothing happened...just not the way others put it(ref: check my earliest posts on the other thread)

Kontra1

You are pathetic and hilarious at the same time...i am sure Clearday would ban your sorry ass if he could for giving Turkey such a bad name...

time to hit the sack, looser...i ll catch you tomorrow...if you are still here...

[Kontra1]

but generally all the Turks I've ever met were decent people.

Interesting..I think this is the second time you said this(if it wasn't the other malaka mentioned it also) I could easily dig out your comments how you put it just the opposite when dealing with clearday. So, shall I yell "liar,liar" now.


Kontra1

I suppose you didnt pay attention to the warning you Norwegian sweetheart did you? Assholes sometimes get banned...and you sure fullfill all the criteria.

Now go and jerk it off with photos of decapitated Kurds and Armenians will you? ;)

Hey kiddo...what's up rofl

You sure would like to see me get banned right...so you all can jump on clearday..now that you don't like him either now ;)

Typical greek...always have to gang up. I'm so glad we did what we had to do with you guys in the past.

I've sent links to these threads at least to 200 more Turks who needed to be convinced about EU...so thanks for your cooperation :)



Kontra1

[achilles]

I'm so glad we did what we had to do with you guys in the past.

I never had any doubts that you enjoyed every moment of it ;)


I've sent links to these threads at least to 200 more Turks who needed to be convinced about EU...so thanks for your cooperation

I suppose this mean that the Turkish public opinion, as of now, does not like the EU.. :lol:

I kindly thank you for pushing the frontiers of human stupidity moron.

[Kontra1]

I'm so glad we did what we had to do with you guys in the past.

I never had any doubts that you enjoyed every moment of it ;)

Yeah...I realized that after meeting you & co here.

Kontra1

[Kontra1]

I suppose this mean that the Turkish public opinion, as of now, does not like the EU.. :lol:

I kindly thank you for pushing the frontiers of human stupidity moron.

However your 14 year old brain formulates it....not my problem.


Kontra1

[Nikitaras]

but generally all the Turks I've ever met were decent people.

Interesting..I think this is the second time you said this(if it wasn't the other malaka mentioned it also) I could easily dig out your comments how you put it just the opposite when dealing with clearday. So, shall I yell "liar,liar" now.


Kontra1

OK, all Turks are Di**heads. Are you happy now?

Perhaps it is just the Turks on this board that are giving us a rather unsavory view towards Turkey;although, I don't like to pigeonhole people by the actions of a few so I stand by my earlier comment.

Chill out KKKontra, no one here thinks you are a decent person so your reputation as a fascistic, anti-European(except Norway) Gay Wolf is still intact.

[Nikitaras]

But I shure do know that if one side wouldn't start the mess , the second wouldn't have reacted .
That's all what makes the difference .


Right...that's what we've been saying too. If we werent attack by armenians, sh*t wouldn't happen. BTW, I never said nothing happened...just not the way others put it(ref: check my earliest posts on the other thread)

Kontra1

You're so right KKKontra. If the Armenians didn't attack Turkey than Turkey would not have had to massacre 1.5 million Armenian women and children.

Folks we have a winner, our dear little Gay Wolf just admitted to the Armenian genocide.

Give the man a swastika

[Nikitaras]

but generally all the Turks I've ever met were decent people.

Interesting..I think this is the second time you said this(if it wasn't the other malaka mentioned it also) I could easily dig out your comments how you put it just the opposite when dealing with clearday. So, shall I yell "liar,liar" now.


Kontra1

I suppose you didnt pay attention to the warning you Norwegian sweetheart did you? Assholes sometimes get banned...and you sure fullfill all the criteria.

Now go and jerk it off with photos of decapitated Kurds and Armenians will you? ;)

Hey kiddo...what's up rofl

You sure would like to see me get banned right...so you all can jump on clearday..now that you don't like him either now ;)

Typical greek...always have to gang up. I'm so glad we did what we had to do with you guys in the past.

I've sent links to these threads at least to 200 more Turks who needed to be convinced about EU...so thanks for your cooperation :)



Kontra1

Wow, the guy who denies his country exterminated 1.5 million humans mostly women and children is complaining about being ganged up on.

Don't complain just because the clear thinking individuals can see through your lies, obfuscation, and hate and then have the cojones to call you and your countrymen out on all your fallacies.

I have a queastion for you though; Are the other 200 Turks as dumb as you or do they just drink Ankara's Kool-Aid in regards to the Armenian genocide as well?

[Kontra1]

You're so right KKKontra. If the Armenians didn't attack Turkey than Turkey would not have had to massacre 1.5 million Armenian women and children.Folks we have a winner, our dear little Gay Wolf just admitted to the Armenian genocide. Give the man a swastika

Like I said however your little brain formulates it (wait a min...was it the other malaka I said this to?? got confused now...wow.."traditional greek ganging up" used even in the cyberworld :)

Anyways..in my consicience,it is a self defence during war and I'm pretty damn comfortable with it. PERIOD

Now..why don't we talk about the dirty little old man in your county..? were you an altarboy for these guys ?? rofl

http://www.detnews.com/2005/religion/0502/19/religion-94634.htm



Kontra1

[Nikitaras]

Like I said however your little brain formulates it (wait a min...was it the other malaka I said this to?? got confused now...wow.."traditional greek ganging up" used even in the cyberworld :)

You sick Turkish dirtball. Hell no me and Achilles won't gangbang you. What the hell kind of perverted request is that?

Anyways..in my consicience,it is a self defence during war and I'm pretty damn comfortable with it. PERIOD

In your conscience, cutting off childrens heads is a Turkish national pastime so spare me the lecture on how clear your Nazi conscience is.

Now..why don't we talk about the dirty little old man in your county..? were you an altarboy for these guys ?? rofl

The church is also investigating possible trysts by bishops, including a 91-year-old cleric, after a photo published in an Athens daily allegedly showed him **** in bed with a young woman.

Actually if you read your own article you stupid mehmet, it say he was in bed with a woman not a boy. Keep your perverted *** fantasises involving naked boys limited to Muslims and Catholics.

[California Joe]

Kontra, you seem like Turkish version of Sixgun Symphony, an American asshole that was banned for being well....an asshole. You might want to find a Turkish military website to hang out at. You're a one trick pony here.


Hey...so they finally got you here huh.What's da matter... can't handle little opposition? had it too cosy bashing more moderate Turks?? do I have to take all kinds of sh*t to hang around here?

Have it your way...you bann me...you'll just prove exactly that.


Kontra1

If you were going to be banned you'd already be banned. Not my call. Ultra right wing nationalist types don't live long around here. That's all I was saying. You continue to argue facts when proven wrong out of a sense of nationalist pride. That makes you unstable. That makes you retarded. I could give a **** about your Turkish Pride. I could give a **** about Turkey to tell you the truth. I had a Turkish boss once, I hated that prick. There's my frame of referrence. Piss off with your martyrs complex.

[Nikitaras]

Kontra, you seem like Turkish version of Sixgun Symphony, an American asshole that was banned for being well....an asshole. You might want to find a Turkish military website to hang out at. You're a one trick pony here.


Hey...so they finally got you here huh.What's da matter... can't handle little opposition? had it too cosy bashing more moderate Turks?? do I have to take all kinds of sh*t to hang around here?

Have it your way...you bann me...you'll just prove exactly that.


Kontra1

If you were going to be banned you'd already be banned. Not my call. Ultra right wing nationalist types don't live long around here. That's all I was saying. You continue to argue facts when proven wrong out of a sense of nationalist pride. That makes you unstable. That makes you retarded. I could give a **** about your Turkish Pride. I could give a **** about Turkey to tell you the truth. I had a Turkish boss once, I hated that prick. There's my frame of referrence. Piss off with your martyrs complex.

rofl

I'm hoping he dosen't get banned because this guy keeps me rolling with his nationalistic BS.

The funny thing is that all of us love our countries but we are not afraid to admit that they do some fu**ed up sh*t from time to time.

[Kontra1]

Kontra, you seem like Turkish version of Sixgun Symphony, an American asshole that was banned for being well....an asshole. You might want to find a Turkish military website to hang out at. You're a one trick pony here.


Hey...so they finally got you here huh.What's da matter... can't handle little opposition? had it too cosy bashing more moderate Turks?? do I have to take all kinds of sh*t to hang around here?

Have it your way...you bann me...you'll just prove exactly that.


Kontra1

If you were going to be banned you'd already be banned. Not my call. Ultra right wing nationalist types don't live long around here. That's all I was saying. You continue to argue facts when proven wrong out of a sense of nationalist pride. That makes you unstable. That makes you retarded. I could give a **** about your Turkish Pride. I could give a **** about Turkey to tell you the truth. I had a Turkish boss once, I hated that prick. There's my frame of referrence. Piss off with your martyrs complex.

Ahh...blow it outta your ass modboy...who the hell are you to talk about my nationalism...figured it out yourself? . What do YOU know to judge me I'm proven wrong...do you know where in the hell are the countries we're talking about...can you point them out on the map???

Th place is full of nazis and you accuse me for something I'm NOT. I already said it many times...that ideolgy is YOUR kind of thing...NOT mine. I'm just a simple patriot like everyone else is a little.

You alredy hated Turks before you came here...that's why people like me exists.

Kontra1

[California Joe]

Firstly, your nationalism is clearly evident in all of your posts. Turkey can do no wrong. It seems your mind is made up and unwavering.

Secondly, I am familiar with your area of the map. I'm not an isolationist, ethnocentric dip**** like you.

Thirdly, I knew a Turk that was an asshole, his cousin was a helluva nice guy. I don't generalize all Turks based on my experiences. In fact I rarely, if ever think of Turks at all. You seem to inflate Turkey's importance in other peoples lives. No one cares. Relax.

Fourthly, You're a huge pussy. Spewing your filth on the internet but I would bet you don't serve your country nor do anything to improve it's status in the world. If the EU had to base inclusion on your posts you wouldn't get in until 2060. Stupid.

[Kontra1]

Firstly, your nationalism is clearly evident in all of your posts. You seem to inflate Turkey's importance in other peoples lives. No one cares. Relax.

Fourthly, You're a huge pussy. Spewing your filth on the internet but I would bet you don't serve your country nor do anything to improve it's status in the world. If the EU had to base inclusion on your posts you wouldn't get in until 2060. Stupid.

You got it from the wrong end buddy...if it's so clear in all my posts,why couldn't you figure out what I think about Turkey in the Eu? What the hell is wrong with being against EU?

Don't YOU worry about how I serve my country.You're not in any position to judge it.

I was attack by your greek buddies as my first post went up.You should get them caged up if you want mature disgussions around here.

...and you're a mod. You shouldn't make such a first impression.


Kontra1

[Nikitaras]

You got it from the wrong end buddy...if it's so clear in all my posts,why couldn't you figure out what I think about Turkey in the Eu? What the hell is wrong with being against EU?

OK we get the mantra douchebag, NO, NO, to EU. Why do you keep repeating it like a broken f**king record?

Don't YOU worry about how I serve my country.You're not in any position to judge it.

Serve your country in the Grey Wolf militia while raping Kurdish womaen and beheading children.

...and you're a mod right? you shouldn't make your first impression on people like the way you did with me.

You dug your own grave pal from day one.

I was attack by your greek buddies as my first post went up.You should get them caged up if you want mature disgussions around here.

Maybe if you didn't post with a Grey Wolf Fascist avatar the Greeks would not have gotten on your case.

[Miles.]

Apologists for Genocide - International


Kontra, this may be an organization for you! :fork:

[speckfire]

I wonder why this thread started if someone did not feel defensive? Why do Turks keep denying the Armenian genocide and trying to convince others that they didnt do it? If you're innocent ..why feel defensive ? Why not simply ignore it? Why bother?

[achilles]

Fascist little douchebag said: bla bla bla

You are still around. You know...it might be good for your greased brain to go out and have some fun. From what i have heard, Norway can have a hell of a nightlife when you know where to go.

It was a pleasant shock that you came up with a source. It seems like you are catching up with the spirit of this forum. Too bad your 'news' are completely irrelevant to what we have been talking about here, i.e. what a lying, brainwashed, asshole you are...

You posted something about corruption in the Greek church :lol: Whats next? Are you going to bash about the catastrophic Greek fiscal policy of the 80's?


I was attack by your greek buddies as my first post went up.You should get them caged up if you want mature disgussions around here.

As far as i know, Cali Joe was not called upon this thread. Most likely he got fed up with your stupidity. I dont blame him at all.

You are constantly prooving that you are a bit more dump than 'firefighter from the moon', a profound Albanian member who got banned about a thousand times. Sad, cause he had a better sense of humor than you do.
You popped up here with a grey wolf avatar and you started flaming by your very first post. Did you expect no reaction? I think that was exactly what you were aiming at.

All in all, you cannot fool anyone you pussy-head. If you had any balls you would have admitted right from the start that you are a Turk of the diaspora and you disagree with what most of us say.

If you knew anything about the Greeks of this forum, you would have understood that we are willing to talk about anything, anytime, on a sound basis. We just have very little tolerance for stupid trolls like yourself.
Thats all. Now go and beat up a woman...it might boost your ego.

[/quote]

[Gokhan_21]

I wonder why this thread started if someone did not feel defensive? Why do Turks keep denying the Armenian genocide and trying to convince others that they didnt do it? If you're innocent ..why feel defensive ? Why not simply ignore it? Why bother?

Up till to this yeahr turkey did like you said but it didnt get a end ... armenia and his friends still attack turkey with the so called genocite .
And now turkey is going offfensive !

Hartill, Ramsden

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the Tartars* and then proceeded in the work of
extermination."

Hartill, Ramsden
Men Are Like That - Memoirs of an Armenian officer
The Bobbs-Merrill Companv, Indianapolis (1926), Seite 202.


Nalbandian Louise

"(...) In the region of Sassun (located in the province of Bitlis) a revolutionary named
Damadian, the Hunchaks, and others had been inciting hostilities between the Kurds and
the Armenians. In August 1894, an actual rebellion broke out. In fact, Mihran Damadian, who was
one of the leaders of the Kumkap? demonstration first escaped to Athens where he organized anti-
Turkish demonstrations in 1891,and later came to Sassun with the aim of inciting the Armenians to
rebel.Damadian and his band raided the village Avzim in Mush in December 1892 and killed a Turk
named Sergeant Ishak. Hostilities continued between the Kurds and Armenians after the
Armenian band attacks. Another Armenian named Boyajian joined Damadian and later pursued his
agitation activities.
Boyajian band organized many attacks on communities living in the area and pillaged their
properties throughout 1894*. Nalbandian describes these events: "Murat (Boyajian) and a
band of followers started minor acts of aggression against the Kurds, who countered with
attacks against the Armenians.

Nalbandian, Louise, Armenian Revolutionary Movement,University of California Press, 1963, Seite
121.


Katchazouni / Carlson

Carlson, Cairo to Damascus pages: 437-439
"The state of mind of many of the Dashnags was clearly reflected in Zohrab Jevahirjian, a photographer. "I'm a Dashnag by blood," he told me. "We are not mild toward our enemies. When the
order* comes to dispose of an enemy, our men do not rest until the work is done."

Katchaznouni first president of Armenia

At the beginning of the Fall of 1914 when Turkey had not yet entered the war but had
already been making preparations, Armenian revolutionary bands* began to be formed in
Transcaucasia with great enthusiasm and, with especially, much uproar. Contrary to the
decision taken during their general meeting at Erzurum only a few weeks before, the A.R.F. had
[actively participated] in the formation of the bands and their future military action against Turkey.
In an undertaking of such gravity, fraught with most serious consequences, individual agents of the
Transcaucasian A.R.F. acted against the wiIl of our superior authority, against the will of the General
Meeting of the Party... In the Fall of 1914 Armenian volunteer bands organized themselves and fought
against the Turks because they could not refrain… from organizing and… fighting. This was (in) [sic.]
an inevitable result of a psychology on which the Armenian people had nourished itself during an
entire generation : that mentality should have found its expression, and did so.

I killed* Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best
way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy
stones. as I did. I gathered all of the women. men and children, threw big stones down on top of
them. They must never live on this earth

"In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul."
Sahak Melkonian, Preserving the Armenian Purity, 1920, pg. 5
A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok (Revolutionary East) No: 2-3, Moscow, 1936.


Ohanus Appressian

"Our men armed themselves, gathered together and advanced on the Tartar section of the village.
There were no lights in the houses and the doors were barred, for the Tartars suspected what was to
happen and were in great fear. Our men hammered on the doors, but got no response; whereupon
they smashed in the doors and began a carnage that continued until the last Tartar was slain.
Throughout the hideous night*, I cowered at home in terror, unable to shut my ears to the piercing
screams of the helpless victims and the loud shouts of our men. By morning the work was finished."
page 15 (second paragraph)
"The Tartars [Muslims] were, for the most part, poor. Some of them
lived in villages and cultivated small farms; many of them continued
in the way of life of their nomadic forefathers. They drove their
flocks and herds from valley to valley, from plain to mountain, and
from mountain to plain, following the pasturage as it changed with
the seasons. They ranged from the salt desert shores of the Caspian Sea far into the mighty Caucasus
Mountains. Even the village Tartars are a primitive people, only semi-civilized.
I can see now that we Armenians frankly despised the Tartars, and,
while holding a disproportionate share of the wealth of the country,
regarded and treated them as inferiors."
page 202
"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might
serve as ways of escape for the Tartars and then
proceeded in the work of extermination. Our troops
surrounded village after village. Little resistance
was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts into heaps
of stone and dust and when the villages became
untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields,
bullets and bayonets completed the work. Some of the
Tartars escaped of course. They found refuge in the
mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into
Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the
whole length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from
Nakhitchevan to Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of
Ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the North were
dotted with mute mournful ruins of Tartar villages.
They are quiet now, those villages, except for howling
of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the
scattered bones of the dead."
p. 203 (second paragraph)
"One evening I passed through what had been a Tartar village. Among the ruins a fire was burning. I
went to the fire and saw seated about it a group of soldiers. Among them were two Tartar girls, mere
children. The girls were crouched on the ground, crying softly with suppressed sobs. Lying scattered
over the ground were broken household utensils and other furnishings of Tartar peasant homes. There
were also bodies of the Muslim dead."
p. 204 (first paragraph)
"I was soon asleep. In the night I was awakened by the persistent crying of a child. I arose and went
to investigate. A full moon enabled me to make my way about and revealed to me all the wreck and
litter of the tragedy that had been enacted. Guided by the child's crying, I entered the yard of a
house, which I judged from its appearance must have been the home of a Muslim family. There in a
corner of the yard I found a women dead. Her throat had been cut. Lying on her breast was a small
child, a girl about a year old."
Page 218 (first and second paragraphs)
"We Armenians did not spare the Muslims. If persisted in, the slaughtering of Tartars, the looting, and
the rape and massacre of the helpless become commonplace actions expected and accepted as a
matter of course.
I have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the ground, in numbers, like the fallen
leaves in a forest. Muslims had been as helpless and as defenseless as sheep. They had not died as
soldiers die in the heat of battle, fired with ardor and courage, with weapons in their hands, and
exchanging blow for blow. They had died as the helpless must, with their hearts and brains bursting
with horror worse than death itself."
p. 109 (second paragraph).
"The method of execution was for an Armenian government 'mauserist' to walk up behind the
condemned Muslim in his home or on the Street, place a pistol to the back of his head and blow out
his brains. This simple way of getting rid of those who were undesirable in the view of the Armenian
government and soon became a common way of paying debts."
Armenian guerillas
From the Foreword:
"For example, we were camped one night in a half-ruined Tartar mosque, the most habitable building
of a destroyed village, near the border of Persia and Russian Armenia. During the course of evening I
asked Ohanus if he could tell me anything of the history of the village and the cause of its destruction.
In his matter of fact way he replied, Yes, I assisted in its sack and destruction, and witnessed the
slaying of those whose bones you saw today scattered among its ruins.'

"Men Are Like That" von Ramsden Hartill
The Bobbs-Merrill Companv, Indianapolis (1926).


Papazian

When the world war broke out in Europe, the Turks began feverish preparations for joining hands
with the Germans. In August 1914 the young Turks asked the Dashnag Convention, then in
session in Erzurum, to carry out their old agreement of 1907, and start an uprising among
the Armenians of the Caucasus against the Russian government. The Dashnagtzoutune
refused to do this, and gave assurance that in the event of war between Russia and Turkey,
they would support Turkey as loyal citizens. On the other hand, they could not be held
responsible for the Russian Armenians... The fact remains, however, that the leaders of the Turkish-
Armenian section of the Dashnagtzoutune did not carry out promise of loyalty to the Turkish cause
when the Turks entered the war. The Dashnagtzoutune in the Caucasus had the upper hand. They
were swayed in their actions by the interests of the Russian government, and disregarded, entirely,
the political dangers that the war had created for the Armenians in Turkey. Prudence was thrown to
the winds: even the decision of their own convention of Erzurum was forgotten, and a call was sent for
Armenian volunteers to fight the Turks on the Caucasian front."
Papazian, K.S.: Patriotism Perverted, Boston 1934, pg.37


Hassan Arfa

When the Russian armies invaded Turkey after the Sarikamish disaster of 1914, their columns were
preceded by battalions of irregular Armenian volunteers, both from the Caucasus and from Turkey.
One of these was commanded by a certain Andranik, a bloodthirsty adventurer.
These Armenian volunteers, in order to avenge their compatriots who had been massacred by the
Kurds, committed all kinds of excesses, more than 600,000 Kurds being killed between 1915
and 1916 in the eastern vilayets of Turkey.
Hassan Arfa, The Kurds, o.O. 1968, Pages 25-6.

Hratch Dasnabedian

Even before 1878, in the regions of Daron-Sasoun and Vasbouragan there had been underground
cells, secret groups, and bands of "brigands" who fought against government forces. During the
eighties, Khrimian and Mgrdich Portugalian were active in Van...Expelled from Van in 1885, Mgrdich
Portugalian left the Ottoman Empire and settled in Marseille, where he published the periodical
'Armenia'. His students and friends in Van considered 'Armenia' their voice, and in 1886 established
the 'Armenagan' Party, the purpose of which was to' secure the sovereignty of the Armenian people
through revolution.

Hratch Dasnabedian, History of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation-Dashnaktsutiun
1890/1924 (Milan,1989), page 21


Varandian M.

Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them and in whatever circumstances you find them. Turkish
children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation."
Hamparsum Boyadjian, former Ottoman parliamentarian, led the Armenian forces who ravaged
Turkish villages behind the lines under the nickname "Murad", 1914. Cited from M. Varandian, "History
of the Dashnaktsutiun," pg. 85.



San Francisco Chronicle

"We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian
atrocities against our people (Jews). Members of our family
witnessed the murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum, Turkey, by Armenian neighbors,
bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely Jewish and/or Muslim... Armenians were in league
with Hitler in the last war, on his promise to grant themselves government if, in return, the Armenians
would help exterminate Jews. Armenians were also hearty proponents of the anti-Semitic acts in
league with the Russian Communists."

Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California, letter, San Francisco Chronicle (December 11, 1983)


Hovannisian and others


The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts (?) to the
Empire increased the area of Transcaucasia to over
130,000 square miles. The estimated population of the
entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000
(20 percent) were Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent)
Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem. Of the
latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically,
barely one-third of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in
the Erevan guberniia, where the Christians constituted
a majority in only three of the seven uezds.

Hovannisian, Richard G.: 'Armenia on the Road
to Independence,' 1918. University of California Press
(Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, pg. 13


The books :Papazian, K. S., Patriotism Perverted: Armenian Revolutionary Federation, Boston, Baikar Press, 1934.
Pasdermadjian, G., Why Armenia Should Be Free? Armenia's Role in
the Present War, Boston, Hairenik Pablishing Company, 1918.

--Pasdermadjian, Garo, Armenia: a Leading Factor in the Winning of World War I, The Armenian Review,
Boston, XVII (1964), S. 24-45.


Lamsa, George M.

In some towns containing ten Armenian houses and thirty Turkish houses, it was reported that 40,000 people were killed, about 10,000 women were taken to the harem, and thousands of children left destitute; and the city university destroyed, and the bishop killed. It is a well-known fact that even in the last war the native Christians, despite the Turkish cautions, armed themselves and fought on the side of the Allies. In these conflicts, they were not idle, but they were well supplied with artillery, machine guns and inflicted heavy losses on their enemies

As you can see, Armenian fabrications were exposed, but never found their ways to newspaper columns. Only anti-Turkish exaggerations, biased stories found quick spots in newspapers and journals across the US. The more anti-Muslim and anti-Turkish the missionary reports were, the more popular the stories got. None of their reports mentioned the suffering endured by Turks and other Muslims, as if they did not exit. Half the story was missing in their reports. Would you rely on a report or testimony where half the story is missing?


Lamsa, George M., a missionary well known for his research on Christianity,The Secret of the Near East, The Ideal Press, Philadelphia (1923), page 133


E. Alexander Powell

Now I can readily understand and make allowance for the public's errors and misconceptions, for it has had, after all, no means of knowing that it has been systematically deceived, but I can find no excuse for those newspapers which, clinging to a policy of vilifying the Turk, failed to rectify the anti-Turkish charges printed in their columns even when it had been proved to the satisfaction of most fair-minded persons that they were unjustified.A case in point was the burning of Smyrna in September, 1922. There was scarcely a newspaper of importance in the United States that did not editorially lay that outrage at the door of the Turks, without waiting to hear the Turkish version, yet, after it had been attested by American, English, and French eye-witnesses, and by a French commission of inquiry, that the city had been deliberately fired by the Greeks and Armenians in order to prevent it falling into Turkish hands, how many newspapers had the courage to admit that they had done the Turks a grave injustice?

E. Alexander Powell, The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia, The Century Co., New York & London (1923),pages 32-33


British Embassy

I regret to inform Your Lordship that there was nothing therein which could be used as evidence against the Turks who are being detained for trial at Malta. Having regard to this stipulation and the fact that the reports in the possession of the Department of State do not appear in any case to contain evidence against these Turks which would be useful even for the purpose of corroborating information already in possession of His Majesty's Government, I fear that nothing is to be hoped from addressing any further inquiries to the United States Government in this matter.

Subsequently all the Ottoman detainees were dismissed of charges and exchanged for the British prisoners in Turkey. And there were no war crimes charges, let alone a charge of a "genocide" of the Armenians.
In 1999,, the Armenians appealed to the British Government to recognize the alleged Armenian genocide to which the British Government replied.

On July 13 1921, the British Embassy in Washington returned the following reply: (Foreign Office document 371/6504/E.8519. R.C. Craige , British Embassy in Washington to Lord Curzon, No. 722, of July 13, 1921.)

[achilles]

^As you friend has already said, in a war **** happens.
Unavoidably, some Turks were killed, so i dont really see where are you getting at.

In all honesty, its sad as well as pathetic not to recognize such an attrocity. You only make your position worse.Think about it.

[speckfire]

Thanks for your explaination Gokhan but something really does not add up. How did the Othoman empire, back then called "The sickman of Europe" handle the Armenian revolt which you stated in your post was this great enemy within that caused a lot of havoc, the British liberation of the Middle East and at the same time win at Gallipoli? Where did Turkey get all these soldiers?? How did it cope on 3 fronts ? I have been to eastern Turkey, I saw a lot of Armenian churches littering the landscape but no Armenians. Why did they all leave?

I also found this link on the official Turkish tourism website. http://www.kulturturizm.gov.tr/portal/default_en.asp?belgeno=3306

I have visited tons of world tourism websites, I never saw anything political. What's going on??? What has tourism to do with politics?

I checked the Armenian tourism website and they mention the Armenian Genocide on thier History page but it's much less subdued and less fussy than the Turkish website.
Check it here http://www.armeniainfo.am/about/?section=history

Again why is Turkey sooo defensive??

[Gokhan_21]

Thanks for your explaination Gokhan but something really does not add up. How did the Othoman empire, back then called "The sickman of Europe" handle the Armenian revolt which you stated in your post was this great enemy within that caused a lot of havoc, the British liberation of the Middle East and at the same time win at Gallipoli? Where did Turkey get all these soldiers?? How did it cope on 3 fronts ? I have been to eastern Turkey, I saw a lot of Armenian churches littering the landscape but no Armenians. Why did they all leave?

I also found this link on the official Turkish tourism website. http://www.kulturturizm.gov.tr/portal/default_en.asp?belgeno=3306

I have visited tons of world tourism websites, I never saw anything political. What's going on??? What has tourism to do with politics?

I checked the Armenian tourism website and they mention the Armenian Genocide on thier History page but it's much less subdued and less fussy than the Turkish website.
Check it here http://www.armeniainfo.am/about/?section=history

Again why is Turkey sooo defensive??


My english isint thath good thaths why i´l try to explain as good as i can .

im not saying there was not death armenians.
in the war agains the brits,anzacs,frenchs....and,and,and the turkish army back than was al the time on his feed going to one front after a front fought a lot of enemy in the same time (maybe you heard it its the time of the betrayal of the arabs ,they joinet together with the brits) the armenians in the ottoman empire startet a revolte with the suport of the russians and got crazy in the north region of the now known turkey and a internal war startet armenians vs the moslems of this region a lot of people sufferet from it somthing like one million from both sides did die . and the sultan orderet the army for the deportation of the armenians from this region to syria but there was not a genocite not a systematical killing if there is a foult than this foult is thath lot of children and women dieet becos of the lousy helth care and food and watter supply but like you sayed there was a 3 fronts a lot of people dieet from the same reason in anatolia too no food no helth ... is sad but its a resultat of war .


Again why is Turkey sooo defensive??

Becous they saying you killed 1.5 million armenians on purpose aknowledge this and we dont care about your version of what happent thath why we are so defensive no one cares about our loss if we aknowledge this just together with our loss and we cann be sad for the women and children who diet in this region on both sides .

I hope i could explain my self if not i hope clearday can tr it again .

regarts

[achilles]

Can you back up what you are saying with sources? Thanks.

[speckfire]

Thanks again Gokhan, but why deportation of all Armenians by the Sultan? Why not punish the rebels ? Why empty all of eastern Anatolia of Armenians? Did the whole Armenian nation revolt??? Were they suffering under the Turks? I can't imagine all did. Did they want independence? Didn't Syria belong to the Ottoman empire too? Why send them to the Syrian desert ?

[Gokhan_21]

Can you back up what you are saying with sources? Thanks.

The Bobbs-Merrill Companv, Indianapolis (1926), Page 202.

Nalbandian, Louise, Armenian Revolutionary Movement,University of California Press, 1963, Seite
121.


Carlson, Cairo to Damascus pages: 437-439


Sahak Melkonian, Preserving the Armenian Purity, 1920, pg. 5


"Men Are Like That" from Ramsden Hartill


Papazian, K.S.: Patriotism Perverted, Boston 1934, pg.37


Hassan Arfa, The Kurds, o.O. 1968, Pages 25-6.


Hratch Dasnabedian, History of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation-Dashnaktsutiun
1890/1924 (Milan,1989), page 21


M. Varandian, "History
of the Dashnaktsutiun," pg. 85.


Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California, letter, San Francisco Chronicle (December 11, 1983)


(Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, pg. 13


Armenia's Role in
the Present War, Boston, Hairenik Pablishing Company, 1918


Pasdermadjian, Garo, Armenia: a Leading Factor in the Winning of World War I, The Armenian Review,
Boston, XVII (1964), Pg. 24-45


Lamsa, George M., a missionary well known for his research on Christianity,The Secret of the Near East, The Ideal Press, Philadelphia (1923), page 133


E. Alexander Powell, The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia, The Century Co., New York & London (1923),pages 32-33


These are listet books with the pages you can find tham at ,
I could find more sources for you if your realy intrestet.

[Gokhan_21]

Thanks again Gokhan, but why deportation of all Armenians by the Sultan? Why not punish the rebels ? Why empty all of eastern Anatolia of Armenians? Did the whole Armenian nation revolt??? Were they suffering under the Turks? I can't imagine all did. Did they want independence? Didn't Syria belong to the Ottoman empire too? Why send them to the Syrian desert ?


The sultan had calculatet thath the ottoman army yould not hold syria for long maybe he thougt after the war there was no posibilitys of living together with the betrayers or maybe he calculatet thath they would die in the dessert but no one knows for shure what happend the historians thinking on both sides to patriotic both dont want to hear of the black pages of their history thath why the premier minister of turkey (recep tayyip erdogan ) send the armenian president a letter so they could build a komission of turkish and armenian historians with proffesors from other countrys i have no idea what will happen next . but i know for shure as big as the pressure is on turkey as strong the deffence will be .

[achilles]

Gokhan, i was thinking more of weblinks. In any case i am sure you realize that a good number of your very own sources support the existence of the Armenian genocide.

What you have just shown is that not only Armenians were killed but also Turks. Noone here claims the opposite. As it is also true that many Armenians died of famine and lack of hygene.

Tell me this. I have provided with sources, according to which Turkey has accepted responsibility for up to 300,000 Armenian deaths. Allow me to believe that the number is much higher, Turkey is bound to make 'humble' estimates ;) . I wouldnt ask a nazi how many Jews died in the holocaust now would i?
For me the specific number, 300,000, is enough to make a genocide. How about you?

[achilles]

And another rhetoric question:

Why has the international community recognized the Armenian genocide? Countries like France, Canada, USA, to mention a few, have done so long time ago. Is this some sort of paranoid conspiracy against Turkey? Does everyone want you to look genocidal for political reasons? It cant be...

Last time i checked, the USA for example was not so much anti-Turk, generally speaking ;) . But this is their stance:

USA Recognizes the Armenian Genocide (http://www.cilicia.com/armo10i_usa.html)

[Gokhan_21]

Gokhan, i was thinking more of weblinks. In any case i am sure you realize that a good number of your very own sources support the existence of the Armenian genocide.

What you have just shown is that not only Armenians were killed but also Turks. Noone here claims the opposite. As it is also true that many Armenians died of famine and lack of hygene.

Tell me this. I have provided with sources, according to which Turkey has accepted responsibility for up to 300,000 Armenian deaths. Allow me to believe that the number is much higher, Turkey is bound to make 'humble' estimates ;) . I wouldnt ask a nazi how many Jews died in the holocaust now would i?
For me the specific number, 300,000, is enough to make a genocide. How about you?

are you calling me a nazi ?...

the sources are not my very own theese are books publicet in usa and europe these are not written by turks ! sorry but a internet page could be build by everyone but the books are in every book shop to buy or for rent in libiearys. and if you ask me its more shure way of giving sources .
300.000 armenian people lost lives are aknowledget but they diet in the internal war like the death 250.000 muslim diet from the same reason and no one knows how mutch diet becous of the hygien or food and watter needs . in the ottoman archives are the armenian citiecien listet there where 1.3 million armenians living in the ottoman empire im saying it is a must to build a international komission so they can research of what hapend . im saying after thath if the ottoman empire is guilty it is the natural thing to do to say sorry and try to make it less pain fuller for the families of the ones who diet.

[speckfire]

Here is something interesting that I found. Check it out This is from an Israeli news website http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1114322084568&p=1006953079865

[Gokhan_21]

Here is something interesting that I found. Check it out This is from an Israeli news website http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1114322084568&p=1006953079865

THIS ARTICLE IS AVAILABLE TO MEMBERS ONLY

[speckfire]

Here is something interesting that I found. Check it out This is from an Israeli news website http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1114322084568&p=1006953079865

THIS ARTICLE IS AVAILABLE TO MEMBERS ONLY

Sorry about that. If you want to read it, you can create an account there. It's free of charge, just like this forum here.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Thanks again Gokhan, but why deportation of all Armenians by the Sultan? Why not punish the rebels ? Why empty all of eastern Anatolia of Armenians? Did the whole Armenian nation revolt??? Were they suffering under the Turks? I can't imagine all did. Did they want independence? Didn't Syria belong to the Ottoman empire too? Why send them to the Syrian desert ?



Well, hi speckfire...


Let me clarify,

1-U say we deport all Armenians,first u wrong
(the armenian population was 1.256.403 in 1330 (1914) and Sultan had deported 924.158,it must be clear,others stayed in Istanbul,Izmir and some west Turkey cities.)

2-U brought up "punishment". And u think why hadnt we punished some rebels.Again u wrong, The sultan had made some firmans about punishments of rebels(not one side,it s included some Turks,coz there were some Turkish rebels as Armenians rebelsSo The sultan had tried to taken quick precautions agaist rebel Turks and Amenians,Kurds). But please consider "war conditions",u had been invaded by Russians,British,French,...and u must control every fronts while controlling inner rebels...This was so hard.

3-Syria soils were safe for them. Some of them returned to Turkey.

4-And u again have seen (if u have a chance,please confirm these numbers) Armenians say "1,5 million people in Genocide" but in 1914 there were totally 1.256.403 million people. And 924.158 (east part) had been brought to Syria.(not a genocide it s a put up from Turkey to Syria)
and how can a human find 1,5 million death?



AND PLEASE PLEASE SOMEONE SHOW US WHERE ARE ALL 1,5 DEATHS IN TURKEY? WE COULDNT FIND THEIR COLLECTED GRAVES? WHERE ARE THEY? HOW CAN A NATION HIDE 1,5 MILLION DEATH? ISNT IT WEIRD? ISNT IT CRAP? ISNT IT A HUGE LIE? WORLD HISTORIANS INVESTIGATE TURKISH SOILS,AND WHY DONT THEY FIND ANYTHING? I LIVE IN ISTANBUL WITH SOME ARMENIAN FRIENDS...WE LIVE IN A PEACE,DONT PLAY WITH US.This s political issue btw Armenians,Europe and Turkey. It s not a historical. Dont play with history.



regards (respect true history-historians,not politicians)

[Clearday-TRForce]

and Please someone explain me Why ARMENIANS dont open their ARCHIEVES while OTTOMAN archieves available to read for all people?
WHAT do THEY HIDE FROM HUMANITY? I have shown u some BRITISH archives...If u read them,u can easily find why?

[Clearday-TRForce]

EVALUATING THE EVENTS OF THE 1915 OTTOMAN-ARMENIAN CIVIL WAR

Statement
of Opinion by ACJTR
American Council on Jewish-Turkish Relations

Washington, D.C.
April 20, 2005
---------------------


We, as American Jews whose origins date from pre-1492 Spain and from post-1492 Turkey, support the Turkish Government's call for opening the archives of pertinent countries in relation to the Ottoman-Armenian Civil War waged during World War I. We believe this is the only appropriate course for determining what really happened in these unfortunate events, and then assign responsibilities.

It is a historical fact that, as part of the above hostilities in and around 1915, for whatever reasons, Armenian civilians were deported from their towns and villages in Eastern Anatolia, and routed to the Arab provinces of the Ottoman Empire.

A significant number among these deportees, on their way to their designed destination, were plundered and massacred by Kurdish and Arab tribesmen, as well as by some of those who were supposed to protect them during their journey.

On the other hand, it is also clear that large numbers of deportees were able to survive this tragic episode. The presence of a total Armenian population of about 9 million worldwide, including sizeable communities in the Middle-East (over 200,000 in Lebanon, 100,000 in Syria, 100,000 in Iran, 70,000 in Turkey, 50,000 in Jordan, etc.), in the U.S. (about 2 million), and in France (nearly half a million), whose ancestors found their way there from Eastern Anatolia in the aftermath of this deportation, attest to this fact.

Before accusing the Ottoman State (and its ruling Union and Progress Party regime) of the crime of ‘genocide’, it is imperative to submit evidence that Ottoman government authorities gave specific orders to its military and administrative echelons for the killing of Armenian deportees.

Today's Turkish government wishes to shed light on the tragic events of that period, and proposes that the archives of all concerned countries such as Russia, Germany, France, USA, UK, Turkey, as well as Armenian archives worldwide(not Armenian Archives in Armenia), be made public and thoroughly studied by accredited historians in order to establish the facts.

For the sake of fairness, aspects of subject hostilities that warrant examination should encompass atrocities committed by both sides in the conflict. Such aspects include: Armenian groups who massacred Turkish villagers; Armenian militias that collaborated with invading Czarist-Russian and French armies; the secessionist activities of local Ottoman-Armenians; the share of provocations made by the British who used the Armenians in order to undermine the Ottoman State; the share of the German General Staff and its stance vis-à-vis the Armenian deportation.

We believe that world public opinion should endorse the need for conducting a thorough and objective investigation of the full historical facts relating to this conflict, before branding the present Turkish Government with ‘genocide denial’ and place the collective onus of ‘genocide’ on the Turkish people.


regards (respect true history,historians-not politicians)

[achilles]

Its amazing how much all of you avoid posting the links to your 'sources'.

Now look at how interestingly the denial of the Armenian genocide is a well-organized state-sponsored business:


Theriault first described the active, state-sponsored denial of the
Armenian Genocide. In the United States alone, the Turkish government
pours millions of dollars into its negationist campaign, hiring
lobbyists (like Bob Livingston and Steven Solarz) to defeat
congressional recognition legislation, as well as public relations firms
to put its version of the events in question out. Ankara also uses its
own diplomatic personnel, funds different initiatives, prints denialist
books and then sends these out free to school districts and newspapers.
When the French Parliament was voting to recognize the Armenian
Genocide, the Turkish government threatened to shut French companies out
of billions of dollars of contracts. “The explicitness, the extent and
the state sponsorship of denial of the Armenian Genocide make it perhaps
the great example of denial,” concluded Theriault. He pointed out that
the Turkish campaign is happening on almost every level and it appears
to encompass every feature of similar denialist attempts, including
state sponsorship and the targeting of the media, educational
institutions and the political realm. Theriault said that the
appointment of Heath Lowry, an American denier of the Armenian Genocide,
as tenured professor at Princeton shows that joining the denialist
bandwagon often has its rewards. The struggle against denial, therefore,
has to be constant, for positive signs in this regard are often
counterbalanced by negative developments.

The full very interesting article can be found here (http://www.blogrel.com/2004/06/24/genocide-denial-lecture/)

For those wondering who is Mr. Theriault:

Theriault has a Ph.D. in Philosophy from the University of
Massachusetts. He serves as Assistant Professor of philosophy and
coordinates the Center for the Study of Human Rights at Worcester State
College (Massachusetts, USA). His research focuses on genocide,
nationalism, and the philosophy of history, with particular emphasis on
issues of genocide denial.


Despite Turkey's organized effort the truth could not remain hidden in regards to this attrocity. Therefore the pro-Turkey United States of America, as i have already said, recognized the genocide.

As it seems, and based on what Mr. Theriault says, genocides cannot be easily covered.

This goes to Clearday:

AND PLEASE PLEASE SOMEONE SHOW US WHERE ARE ALL 1,5 DEATHS IN TURKEY? WE COULDNT FIND THEIR COLLECTED GRAVES? WHERE ARE THEY? HOW CAN A NATION HIDE 1,5 MILLION DEATH? ISNT IT WEIRD? ISNT IT CRAP? ISNT IT A HUGE LIE? WORLD HISTORIANS INVESTIGATE TURKISH SOILS,AND WHY DONT THEY FIND ANYTHING? I LIVE IN ISTANBUL WITH SOME ARMENIAN FRIENDS...WE LIVE IN A PEACE,DONT PLAY WITH US.This s political issue btw Armenians,Europe and Turkey. It s not a historical. Dont play with history.

Of course you should know that this is one extremely stupid question, and dont take that personally.
DO WE NEED 6 MILLION JEWISH DEAD BODIES TO BELIEVE THAT THE HOLOCAUST IS AN HISTORICAL FACT?

For your own sake people, get a grip on yourselves ;)

[Clearday-TRForce]

Hi achilles,


no offense,just, we are typing. I see u support some Armenians as a Greek citizen.A little question to you,honestly.(I again say, no offense)

could u give me an any info(link-book-photo gallery of collected graves) about collected Armenian tombs in TURKEY founded by World Archaelogists and Historians?

coz no one found waited-collected graves in TURKEY,please if you have a more information about these hidden graves in Turkey,please share ur informations with us.I vow that I will end up these conversation. We havent taken serious consideretion about these claims of Armenians.But We have suddenly seen in some EUROPE PARLIMENTOS to take decisions,yes there was a genocide. But no common historians can take same decisions in the world. So please answer me Why dont ALL HISTORIANS accept so-called claims in the World?


regards (respect true history,historians-not politicians)

[Clearday-TRForce]

And Achilles (no offense again,coz we are friend),


U give me an "Armenian link" and u wait a "respect from me".Why?
I dont give u an "org and tr" link...I give u "archieves from British,Russian,Ottoman"...So why dont u give me an information about these archieves?


and u have forgetten...
please answer me

Why do ARMENIANS close their archieves while Ottomans open?



regards.

[Clearday-TRForce]

HOW THE ARMENIAN ISSUE CAME ABOUT
FACTORS LEADING TO THE CREATION OF THE ISSUE



Following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, with the encouragement of Russia, Britain, France and the Empire of Austria-Hungary, the nations which constituted the empire started struggling for liberation and they were successful. These developments set examples for the Armenians, as well. With financial and moral help of the countries, which wanted to dissolve the Ottoman Empire, they started rebellions in some regions. In this way, in the second half of the 19th century, an “Armenian question” came into being.

During this period, the former Empire of Russia, which emerged gradually as an important state, accepted the Ottoman territories as a natural area of expansion through Ottoman territories and it possessed the goal of opening out to warm seas. In order to achieve this goal, its primary means was to make war. Beside this, it played the role of being the protector of the Christian communities under the Ottoman rule. On the other hand, the main powers of the period, Britain and France also aimed at securing the Armenians for Protestantism and Catholicism. In the framework of these goals, they established the Armenian Catholic Church in 1830, and the Armenian Protestant Church in 1847 in Istanbul. The real intention of this interest for the Ottoman Armenians and other Christian communities shown by Britain and France and Russia was to intervene in the interior affairs of the Ottoman State and dissolve the empire.

These powers promised Armenians the establishment of the Armenian State in Eastern Anatolia. However, in the period in question the Armenian population in the region constituted only 15% of the general population. For instance, in Bitlis, where they populated mostly, they were not even 1/3 of the population of the province. The starting point for the “Armenian question” is Hagia Stephanos Agreement and Berlin Conference, signed at the end of the 1877-78 Ottoman-Russian war. The 16th article of Hagia StephanosAgreement, which the Ottoman State had to accept is as follows:

“Because the evacuation of the regions in Armenia, which are under the occupation of the Russian Forces and ought to be rendered to Ottoman State, this might cause detrimental chaos in the friendly relations of the two states in these regions. The Ottoman State guarantees, without losing time, the redressing and arrangements required for the local interests in these provinces, where the Armenians live, and providing the security of the Armenians towards Kurds and Circassians.”

Although in principle this provision of the agreement did not exactly satisfy the Armenians, who wished to gain their independence, it is important to note that the "Armenian question" was recorded in an international document and the region called "Armenia" was mentioned for the first time in history. Also, in 1878, the 61st article of the Berlin Agreement, which was signed at the end of the Berlin Congress, replaced the 16th article of the Hagia Stephanos Agreement and it is as follows:

"The Ottoman State guarantees, without losing time, the redressing and arrangement that are required by the local interests in the provinces, where the Armenians live, and providing peace and security of the Armenians towards Kurds and Circassians. And since it shall notify the concerned states about these precautions, these states shall monitor the implementation of these precautions.”

With this provision of the Berlin Agreement, the foreign powers were recognised the right of intervention to the Turco-Armenian relations.



regards (respect true history-historians,not politicians)

[achilles]

And Achilles (no offense again,coz we are friend),


U give me an "Armenian link" and u wait a "respect from me".Why?
I dont give u an "org and tr" link...I give u "archieves from British,Russian,Ottoman"...So why dont u give me an information about these archieves?


and u have forgetten...
please answer me

Why do ARMENIANS close their archieves while Ottomans open?



regards.

Dude, we are making circles here. First, i think it was Nikitaras who showed you that the Armenian archives were open all along the way.

And once more, you are erroneously painting my sources as strictly Armenian. Not true. I have provided a huge number of sources, whole bibliographies, along with their corresponding links, whereas you have provided actually nothing. Just vast amounts of obscure 'copy and paste' without any links at all. I suppose posting the link would be somewhat embarassing. You are not quoting the Turkish Foreign Ministry, are you? :lol:


I am backed up. You are not. I have every right to ask for what you called 'respect' ;)


To the point. You ancestors apart from being super effective in evaporating hundreds of thousands of Armenians, were equally effective in hiding their traces. Many dead bodies were burnt, even more were buried in an 'not-to-be-found' sort of way ;) .
Still that change change the fact that the Ottomans comitted genocide. What are you suggesting here? No dead body, no crime? Please...

And i ll come up with more on mass graves since you asked for it ;)

[gaijinsamurai]

To Clearday, Gokhan, and all you other people who deny the Armenian Holocaust took place:
Nobody takes your drivel seriously! That is, of course, unless they are as nutty as yourself, so-called "scholars" on the payroll of the Turkish Government, or cynical entities like the Israeli Government, who sold their souls a long time ago, despite the fact that a lot of Israeli people know better.
I have a suggestion for you: why don't you go visit the National Alliance website, or some other hate group? You'll probably find that you have more in common with them than most of the people who post on this forum!
And "no", I'm not anti-Turkish or anti-Muslim!

[Clearday-TRForce]

well, I wanna ask u something again? but I would like to see u in honest.



1- If Armenians were Muslims,could u back them continuesly?
2- If u are right about "burning",could u give me any info about this "burning" issue?
3- U said "u dont post anything here about history", could u really believe in these? I have posted some British archieves here. U havent read or seen them,right? or u dont think they are true...So where are trues?
I dont give u an info from Turkish resources (that I think u will not believe in,ok)bur further I give u some British resources.so what is ur opinion about British archieves?


regards.

[achilles]

well, I wanna ask u something again? but I would like to see u in honest.



1- If Armenians were Muslims,could u back them continuesly?
2- If u are right about "burning",could u give me any info about this "burning" issue?
3- U said "u dont post anything here about history", could u really believe in these? I have posted some British archieves here. U havent read or seen them,right? or u dont think they are true...So where are trues?
I dont give u an info from Turkish resources (that I think u will not believe in,ok)bur further I give u some British resources.so what is ur opinion about British archieves?


regards.

You are joking right? Why dont you tell us YOUR opinion on the VAST number of sources that me and others have posted.

Why dont YOU answer the questions i asked to Gokhan and he very carefully avoided to answer?
Why dont YOU tell us, Clearday, why the international community has recognized a historical fact, the Armenian genocide.
Before you jump on to it...no, not everyone can hate Turkey ;) .

Rhetorical questions...from now on, the absence of any answers will perceived as 'affirmative' ;)

If someone should be put in trial here its you(plural) and not the rest of us...

[Clearday-TRForce]

:cantbeli:


well,it goes personal.so I give up with u,I will only post "archieves,documents" from non-TURKISH sources.



regards.

[achilles]

:cantbeli:


well,it goes personal.so I give up with u,I will only post "archieves,documents" from non-TURKISH sources.



regards.

Not at all. Its just that instead of answering questions...you are asking them! :cantbeli:

Instead of enhancing your credibility, you are questioning my sources :cantbeli:

See what i mean? ;)

[Clearday-TRForce]

Dear achilles,


simply what do u want from me? ;)
Why do u tend to prevent me posting documents? ;)





regards.

[achilles]

Dear achilles,


simply what do u want from me? ;)
Why do u tend to prevent me posting documents? ;)





regards.

:lol: :lol: Mate,
I AM ENCOURAGING YOU TO POST MORE SOURCES BACKED UP BY THEIR CORRESPONDING LINKS IF YOU CAN BUT YOU DONT SEEM TO BE ABLE TO DO SO.

Jeeeeeesuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuus... :lol:

[Clearday-TRForce]

Achilles,

firstly I dont know who is the most valuable link about this issue.Simply I try to post British resources,Russian resources.Coz if I post some Turkish resources,and it will turn me like "they are one-sided". So it will be more easily to post non-Turkish views,sources... ;)

[achilles]

Achilles,

firstly I dont know who is the most valuable link about this issue

I do know. Mine ;)

[Clearday-TRForce]

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/images/arsivbu/091_bel103.jpg

The letter of Boghos Nubar to the French Foreign Minister - December 3, 1918 (The letter bears the date on which it was received in the Foreign Office - December 3, 1918) In the letter, Boghos Nubar explained that the Armenians had waged constant war with the Ottoman Empire from November 1, 1914 right up to the signing of the Armistice of Mudros on October 30, 1918 and had thus been, in his eyes, "de facto belligerents"



http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/images/arsivbu/007a1_083.jpg

That Protestans Armenians not be deported. (Ciphered telegram from the Ministry of the Interior to various provinces and governors of sanjaks, regarding that the Protestant Armenians who were not deported, not be deported and that their numbers of those who were deported and who remain be communicated.) 4 L. 1333 (15 August 1915) BOA. DH. ŞFR, 55/20

[Kontra1]

Thanks again Gokhan, but why deportation of all Armenians by the Sultan? Why not punish the rebels ? Why empty all of eastern Anatolia of Armenians? Did the whole Armenian nation revolt??? Were they suffering under the Turks? I can't imagine all did. Did they want independence? Didn't Syria belong to the Ottoman empire too? Why send them to the Syrian desert ?

Exactly! these are the very same questions we're pointing out to people and building our argument against the accusations.

Why bother to move them away and not do it on the spot?(I'm sure some sick minds will come up w/some sick explanation) Yes, why? because the intent was not killing them...just relocate them in the country(BTW, Syria was in the borders of the empire back then...so it's not deportation but rather re-location) When armeinian gangs was attacking the people of the area they lived in and the army fighting up on the northern front against russians,that army felt unsecure having a large group of people collobrating with the enemy behind them so Istanbul gov't decide to MOVE them away from the region...logically thinking,in that hectic stuiations of those days,it would be hell of a lot practical to kill them on the region...IF THE INTENSIONS WAS TRULY THAT.Since their actions in the region already had created reaction among the muslim community,we can even even argue the decision of moving them away from the region as a protective action as well as strategig one. Clearly seen, the outcome of this decision didn't serve it's purposes as intended...as they walked, conditions of the season, reactions of communities they went through caused chaos and lots of people died. Our argument is; this was NOT a organized action with intensions of mass murdering these people,but rather protecting them from the reactions of others in their region and northern front army. As you can understand(I hope) a country fighting for its existance in many fronts simply didn't have the time to sort out people from the majority..just like US did in the WWII with japs(which I don't blame them at all) but their conditions were much better in those years.During these very same times, ottomans had high ranking armenian officers in the army and the treasury of state was an armenian.

Now here is the catch...above, I said" country fighting for its "exsistance" THAT is the main concept for people who doesn't want to listen to our side of the story and pushing with all this "genocide" BS(note that I only call the use of word "genocide" a "BS" because there is a HUGE diff. between that and massacare/mass murder and whatever else you call it...I don't deny and never did that people died back than)

Back to "existing" concept...that is the "key" word for people who doesn't want listen to our version.WE JUST DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO EXIST ON THAT LAND...PERIOD..according to them, we stole it from them in 1071 when we first concuered the Anatolia and we have to go back to where we came from(central asia)..which many of you would agree with this idea today and wish that it would become reality, but it's simply not very realistic and feasable today.Their argument is based on such a primitive thinking as this and this is why they're strong supporters of these allegations.As much as this may sound insane to achive today, but if one knew the meaning of "genocide" and it's concequences of accepting it...would also see this insane idea will partially come true....today.

Conclution: Strategialy and militaricaly thinking; noone can blame the occupaing powers' stragety with provoking the minorities in the country in a war stuaition to reach their goals..it happens even today, but morally thinking (which they base their arguments on) is totally irretiating,unfair and UNACCEPTABLE too see their denial of involment in this tragedy.

They erect monuments,pass laws in their parliments and critise us for showing resistance..only to ease their own consicience...well...this only makes us be more determent in our resistance and see their low standarts of human quality better.

I also see the disgussion won't go anywhere as long as everyone from the int'l community testifies on our side gets the stamp of being a "Turkish agents"(which I'm suprised to see we had so many friends to testify for us) I see no intelligent base in these childish responses and I see no reason to respond them.


Kontra1

[Nikitaras]

and the sultan orderet the army for the deportation of the armenians from this region to syria but there was not a genocite not a systematical killing if there is a foult than this foult is thath lot of children and women dieet becos of the lousy helth care and food and watter supply but like you sayed there was a 3 fronts a lot of people dieet from the same reason in anatolia too no food no helth ... is sad but its a resultat of war

Oh this is such a crock of revisionist ****e. The sultan released murderers,rapists,thugs and violent felons from prison which formed The special organization (Teshkilati Mahsusa).

While there was an official special organization founded in December 1911 by the Ottoman government, the second organization that participated in what led to the destruction of the Ottoman Armenian community was founded by the lttihad ve Terraki, technically appeared in July 1914 and was supposed to be different than the already existing organization in one important point, according to the military court and other records, it was meant to be a government in a government(without needing any orders to act). Later in 1914, the Ottoman government decided to draw the direction the special organization was supposed to take by releasing criminals from central prisons to be the central elements of this newly formed special organization. According to the Ottoman commissions attached to the tribunal, for example, the Mzhar commision, in Sivas, as soon as November 1914, 124 criminals were released from Pimian prison, and many other releases followed, in Ankara a few months later, 49 criminals were released from its central prison. Little by little from the end of 1914 to the beginning of 1915, hundreds of prisoners were freed to form the members of this organization that later were charged to escort the convoys of Armenian deportees, the number then grew to thousands. The commander of the Ottoman third army, Vehib called those members of the special organization, the “butchers of the human specy.” This organization was led by the Central Committee Members Doctor Nazim, Behaeddin Sakir, Atif Riza, and former Director of Public Security Aziz Bey. The headquarters of Behaeddin Sakir were in Erzurum, from where he directed the forces of the Eastern vilayets. Aziz, Atif and Nazim Beys operated in Istanbul, and their decisions were approved and implemented by Cevat Bey, the Military Governor of Istanbul.

According to the same commisions and other records, the criminals were chosen by a process of selection, they had to be ruthless butchers to be selected as a member of the special organization. The Mazhar commission during the military court, has provided some lists of those criminals, in one instance for example, from the 65 criminals released 50 were in prison for murder, the lists all gave such a disproportionate ratio between those condemned for murder and others for minor crimes which constituted a clear minority. This process of selection of the criminal was according to most Western researchers clearly indicative of the government's intention to commit mass murder of its Armenian population. It must be noted as well, that according to records, physicians participated in the process of selection, where health professionals were appointed by the war ministry to determine whether the selected convicts would be fit to apply a degree of savagery of killing that was required.

It is estimated that the members of the special organization have killed hundreds of thousands of Armenians

There is your explanation revisionists. It was not a policy of deportation, but a policy of extermination.

To hell with you storybook patriots.

[Nikitaras]

and Please someone explain me Why ARMENIANS dont open their ARCHIEVES while OTTOMAN archieves available to read for all people?
WHAT do THEY HIDE FROM HUMANITY? I have shown u some BRITISH archives...If u read them,u can easily find why?


Clearday do you have a learning disability? You asked this same question earlier and I gave you an answer. Don't try to rewrite history my friend. Armenia has had a policy of open achives for a long time. From my earlier post:

The most recent move by the Turkish government in this regard was for Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and the head of the main opposition party Deniz Baykal to hold a press conference in March 2005 inviting Armenian historians to meet with historians from Turkey to find out what happened - and called on Armenia to open its archives. This was met with a response from the Armenian Foreign minister that the world already knew what happened, and that Armenia's archives were always open.

Turkey has never established diplomatic relations with Armenia and has closed its land borders with Armenia. Armenia has declared repeatedly it is ready for relations and an open border without preconditions.

[Corvus]

26.04.2005 07:36

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Leaders of all organization that are part of the Civil Public Council of Ankara have launched an action to gather signatures for banning film screenings in Turkey with participation of California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger for his announcing April 24 Commemoration Day of the Victims of the Armenian Genocide. The authors of the statement against the Governor censured him, saying he acts “under the dictatorship of the Armenian lobby and accuses the Turkish people in a genocide without studying the historical reality”


rofl rofl rofl rofl

[Kontra1]

Now that we know the "special" interests of the greeks and those who're not even brave enough even in the cyberworld to show their colors(so we know who we're dealing with here) Let's see more mature disgussion level...

Clearday, Gökhan...just ignore the greeks with bunch of biased links and speak from your heart...there is more truth there...more than any link can provide you.



Kontra1

[achilles]

Speak from your heart people...speak from your heart rofl

*said Moses*

[Clearday-TRForce]

and Please someone explain me Why ARMENIANS dont open their ARCHIEVES while OTTOMAN archieves available to read for all people?
WHAT do THEY HIDE FROM HUMANITY? I have shown u some BRITISH archives...If u read them,u can easily find why?


Clearday do you have a learning disability? You asked this same question earlier and I gave you an answer. Don't try to rewrite history my friend. Armenia has had a policy of open achives for a long time. From my earlier post:

The most recent move by the Turkish government in this regard was for Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and the head of the main opposition party Deniz Baykal to hold a press conference in March 2005 inviting Armenian historians to meet with historians from Turkey to find out what happened - and called on Armenia to open its archives. This was met with a response from the Armenian Foreign minister that the world already knew what happened, and that Armenia's archives were always open.

Turkey has never established diplomatic relations with Armenia and has closed its land borders with Armenia. Armenia has declared repeatedly it is ready for relations and an open border without preconditions.


Nikiritas,

Yes I have got a learning disability.And I dont hope it will give u a smile. ;) (if we type like above,we cannot discuss anything,but we are able to discuss evrything,coz I dont believe in deep hate to Greeks and Armenians and other etc..And I dont suppose %95 of Turks have got rancour to races in the world. Coz Turks cannot interest in races,ethnics...)

(note:If Armenians archieves opened,Why any Turkish historians cannot investigate their archieves?)

I m so much honest,if you give an evidence about so-called claims,I will personally accept ur reviews. I dont have dogmatic reviews about any nations and any people in the world. But please respect me alittle, I only post documents. Such as if I was a German, I havent got courage to talk with genocide of Jews.Coz it s so much clear. But all historians still discuss what had done in 1915? no one say exact things...I only post documents not more.Coz I dont know what had done in 1915.But I only estimate,why? Coz I live in Istanbul with Greek friends,Armenian Friends very friendly.And I see their lifes in Turkey.They are full of rights in Turkey...They find here very peaceful.Not only they see this,Jews as same as others. And I can easily take power from this peaceful environment here. I havent seen anything bad things from Armenians about Turks.And I actually heard different stories from them.They have only shown us Russians,British,French affairs in east part of Turkey.Why?
and I will give u a short part review from Ataturk,this s clear for us why all these things happen...

“The Armenian issue, which aims at meeting the economic interests of the capitalist world rather than bearing in mind the veritable interests of the Armenians themselves was best resolved with the Kars Agreement. The friendly ties between two industrious people coexisting peacefully for centuries have been satisfactorily established anew.”

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

for us it s political,not historical. And I again give u some documents.
And it s so strange why do u back Armenians? this s not ur historical events. But u very much interested in...Why? a tie?
at last if u prove me its reality of genocide,I will back u.

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/images/arsivbu/001c3_17.jpg
It says clearly;

After Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror had invaded Bosnia, he offered the locals, religious freedom as a result of Ottoman governmental policies. In his firman (1478) addressed to the Latin priests, Mehmed the Conqueror says: "I Sultan Mehmed Han, All the people from lower and upper classes should know that, I order this to the Bosnian priests who are carrying this firman that: No one shall disturb or interfere with those priests or their churches. All the people who are unaware of this order or all the people who run away from my country can come to our lands and to their churches. Neither me nor my viziers shall disturb those people. I sware on the name of Allah, on the name of Mohammed, on the names of seven holy books, on the names of 124.000 prophets and on sword I wore, no one shall oppose those priests who will obbey my authority and who will serve my country." As it is seen in the pertinant firman, all the minorities living under Ottoman rule had enjoyed freedom equally.


http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/images/arsivbu/032_01c3_02_01.jpg

The report of the Armenian activities, which was sent to the Patriarch,



regards (respect true history,historians - not politicians)

[achilles]

This seems to be an interesting book:
Jay Winter, Paul Kennedy, Antoine Prost, Emmanuel Sivan (Editors, America and the Armenian Genocide of 1915
336 pages Publisher: Cambridge University Press; (January 2004) Publisher: Cambridge University Press; (January 2004) 336 pages

Now Cambridge University Press does not publish **** does it? Cambridge would never take an unconfirmed position in a gross issue such as a genocide now would it? (gosh, it feels as if i am explaining obvious things to retards :bash: ).

I suppose this is one of those books that classidies your ancestors down there, to the depths of the Rwandan Hutus and Hitler's Nazis.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Now that we know the "special" interests of the greeks and those who're not even brave enough even in the cyberworld to show their colors(so we know who we're dealing with here) Let's see more mature disgussion level...

Clearday, Gökhan...just ignore the greeks with bunch of biased links and speak from your heart...there is more truth there...more than any link can provide you.

Kontra1


I couldnt understand what are u typing. I type here from my brain and heart also...So?

[achilles]

Clearday, you were saying somethin about mass graves:

More mass graves of Armenian victims are identified in the Eastern cities of
Turkey: 9 in Van, 42 in Kars, 8 in Igdir, 5 in Ardahan, 12 in Erzurum, 2 in
Erzincan, 2 in Adana, 1 in Cankiri, 1 in Sivas, 8 in Kahraman Maras, and 7
more mass graves were identified in Ahilkelek (outside the present day
borders of Turkey).

Have you checked out these sites? If you have the chance go and check them. Learn more about them.
I dont even want to imagine how many mass graves will never be found ;)

[achilles]

And here is a little something about what you did to the Kurds:


Qala Diza, Northern Iraq: April 1991

At every mountain pass, another village leveled; stone houses are now piles of rubble. No electricity, no running water, little food. People living under slabs of concrete within the ruins of their former homes. They have chosen to stay in this wasteland rather than face exile in either Turkey or Iran.

When the Gulf War began, I, like most Americans, knew little about the Kurds. My first visit to the region was brief: Pleased to have the Western press witness the Kurds' pressing need for humanitarian aid, Iran facilitated access to the Kurdish refugee camps. I was given a five-day visa--barely time to leave Paris, cross the Iranian border, and get to the "liberated" zone within northern Iraq. While the world's attention was concentrated on the flight of the Kurds, I was drawn to the places from which they'd come. I drove in along the same road upon which many Kurds were still fleeing. I was stunned by what I saw. I had never witnessed such a complete and systematic destruction of village life, even in ten years of covering the conflicts in Central America.

Although few Western observers had been inside northern Iraq for nearly a decade, reports periodically leaked out through the Kurdish network about Saddam Hussein's 1988 "Anfal" campaign, a brutal attempt at annihilation. Nearly 100,000 Kurds were said to have "disappeared." After reports that mass graves had been uncovered inside the Kurdish enclave, the group Human Rights Watch sent a mission into the territory to investigate. It was an opportune moment, since no one knew just how long it would take Saddam to regain military strength and reassert control over the region. From the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/m/meiselas-kurdistan.html)

A 100,000 Kurds are claimed to have disappeared? Like...steam or something? Now how shall we label this? A mini-genocide?
No, i think this is a straighforward large scale massacre.

Listen kardasia...there are 3 possibilites:
1) You have no clue about your bloody history...if only one could take you to the international court for being one of the biggest human right violators in history
2)You dont want to have any clue about your own bloody history...i dont know....if i were a Turk i might have adopted the same attitude.
3)You know damn well your bloody history and you are trying to distort undisputable historical facts. This means that the rest of us have to cope with you constant bull****ting.


Now please, speak from your hearts :hug:

[Clearday-TRForce]

ok please give me their links here? can I look a little bit?

and this s an other side....



and I wanna refresh some informatin here that s East side in region who lives in Van and Bitlis and Diyarbakir mostly? these are Kurds...So?
Do U know what s best enemy of any Kurd in the world? do you know who are they? They are Armenians. Kurds hate Armenians (maybe it can be clear for someone here)


and


http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/images/fotobu/i_tehcir_80.jpg

In 1915, when the great resettlement of the Armenians began, the railroad lines from central Anatolia ended in Pozanti, in the middle of the Taurus Mountains. From there, one had to continue by road to Syria. It was not until 1916 that the Germans were able to complate the railroad to Aleppo. The Photo shows troops on their way across the Taurus Mountains to Syria, it s not a genocide


regards.

[Clearday-TRForce]

well, I have seen Achille mate u jumped somewhere.U said Kurds... :cantbeli: unbeliaveable jumps...record. :D how can we type same language in the world.Anyway.I will continue a party tonight,I will join you tomorrrow.And maybe we will break new records here ;)




APRIL 24, 1915

The Ottoman government, against numerous rebellions that began after 1890 and promptly following Armenian massacres which resulted in the murder of tens of thousands of Turks, contented with informing most important persons of Armenian congregation and Armenian deputies that "Government will take the necessary precautions if Armenians continue to stab in the back and assassinate the Turks". However, it became a necessity to secure behind the borders because the army was in war at various fronts, the events did not stop but increased and assaults towards defenseless Turkish women and children increased.

With this aim, on April 24, 1915 the Armenian Committees were closed and 2345 of their directors were arrested due to the crime of carrying out activities against the government. April 24, which is commemorated annually as the "Anniversary of Armenian Massacre" by the Armenians abroad is this date when the 2345 revolutionary committee members were arrested and it has no relation with deportation.

However, the Armenian revolutionary committee members who propagandize even the unfounded events by exaggeration, promptly made a move to propagandize these mentioned arrests. As a matter of fact, Ecmiyazin Catholicos Kevork sent the telegraph below to the President of USA:

"Dear President, according to the last news we got from Turkish Armenia, the massacre began there and an organized terror endangered the presence of the Armenian people. At this critical moment, I am addressing to the noble feelings of your Excellency and great American Nation and in the name of humanity and Christianity belief requesting you to promptly interfere by means of your great Republic's diplomatic representatives and protect my people in Turkey who are left to violence of the Turkish fanaticism.

Kevork, Archbishop and Catholicos of all Armenians."

Pursuant to the telegraph of Archbishop Kevork, Russia's Washington Ambassador got in contact with USA and thus, April 24, which is the day when Armenian committee members dealing with illegal works were arrested was propagandized to world's public opinion as "the day on which Turks massacred Armenians".




regards (respect true history-historians,not politicians)

[achilles]

well, I have seen Achille mate u jumped somewhere

Not at all. That was just to demonstrate that the case with Armenians was not the only one. Massacring has been a common practice during the Turkish past.

[Nikitaras]

Nikiritas,

Yes I have got a learning disability.And I dont hope it will give u a smile. ;) (if we type like above,we cannot discuss anything,but we are able to discuss evrything,coz I dont believe in deep hate to Greeks and Armenians and other etc..And I dont suppose %95 of Turks have got rancour to races in the world. Coz Turks cannot interest in races,ethnics...)

I don't have a deep hatred for any group either, but when individuals deny historical facts it gets under my skin a bit.

(note:If Armenians archieves opened,Why any Turkish historians cannot investigate their archieves?)

Clearday, I do not know why your historians have not investigated their archives. Perhaps they already know what kind of horrors they will find. As you can see from the post I made(which was from a BBC article) The Armenians said their archives were always open, why Turks haven't seized the opportunity is a mystery to me. The fact remains that all credible historians and politicians agree that Turkey perpetrated genocide on the Armenians. I'm not saying that the Armenians did not take part in atrocities as well; however, the official policy and intent of the Young Turks was genocide.

[achilles]

The University of Michigan-Dearborn
Dearborn, MI 48128


The Armenian Genocide was carried out by the "Young Turk" government of the Ottoman Empire in 1915-1916 (with subsidiaries to 1922-23). One and a half million Armenians were killed, out of a total of two and a half million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire.
Most Armenians in America are children or grandchildren of the survivors, although there are still many survivors amongst us.

Armenians all over the world commemorate this great tragedy on April 24, because it was on that day in 1915 when 300 Armenian leaders, writers, thinkers and professionals in Constantinople (present day Istanbul) were rounded up, deported and killed. Also on that day in Constantinople, 5,000 of the poorest Armenians were butchered in the streets and in their homes.

The Armenian Genocide was masterminded by the Central Committee of the Young Turk Party (Committee for Union and Progress [Ittihad ve Terakki Cemiyet, in Turkish]) which was dominated by Mehmed Talât [Pasha], Ismail Enver [Pasha], and Ahmed Djemal [Pasha]. They were a racist group whose ideology was articulated by Zia Gökalp, Dr. Mehmed Nazim, and Dr. Behaeddin Shakir.

The Armenian Genocide was directed by a Special Organization (Teshkilati Mahsusa) set up by the Committee of Union and Progress, which created special "butcher battalions," made up of violent criminals released from prison.

Some righteous Ottoman officials such as Celal, governor of Aleppo; Mazhar, governor of Ankara; and Reshid, governor of Kastamonu, were dismissed for not complying with the extermination campaign. Any common Turks who protected Armenians were killed.

The Armenian Genocide occurred in a systematic fashion, which proves that it was directed by the Young Turk government.

First the Armenians in the army were disarmed, placed into labor battalions, and then killed.

Then the Armenian political and intellectual leaders were rounded up on April 24, 1915, and then killed.

Finally, the remaining Armenians were called from their homes, told they would be relocated, and then marched off to concentration camps in the desert between Jerablus and Deir ez-Zor where they would starve and thirst to death in the burning sun.

On the march, often they would be denied food and water, and many were brutalized and killed by their "guards" or by "marauders." The authorities in Trebizond, on the Black Sea coast, did vary this routine: they loaded Armenians on barges and sank them out at sea.

The Turkish government today denies that there was an Armenian genocide and claims that Armenians were only removed from the eastern "war zone." The Armenian Genocide, however, occurred all over Anatolia [present-day Turkey], and not just in the so-called "war zone." Deportations and killings occurred in the west, in and around Ismid (Izmit) and Broussa (Bursa); in the center, in and around Angora (Ankara); in the south-west, in and around Konia (Konya) and Adana (which is near the Mediterranean Sea); in the central portion of Anatolia, in and around Diyarbekir (Diyarbakir), Harpout (Harput), Marash, Sivas (Sepastia), Shabin Kara-Hissar (þebin Karahisar), and Ourfa (Urfa); and on the Black Sea coast, in and around Trebizond (Trabzon), all of which are not part of a war zone. Only Erzeroum, Bitlis, and Van in the east were in the war zone.

The Armenian Genocide was condemned at the time by representatives of the British, French, Russian, German, and Austrian governments—namely all the major Powers. The first three were foes of the Ottoman Empire, the latter two, allies of the Ottoman Empire. The United States, neutral towards the Ottoman Empire, also condemned the Armenian Genocide and was the chief spokesman in behalf of the Armenians.

The American people, via local Protestant missionaries, did the most to save the wretched remnants of the death marches, the orphaned children.

Despite Turkish denial, there is no doubt about the Armenian Genocide. For example, German ambassador Count von Wolff-Metternich, Turkey's ally in World War I, wrote his government in 1916 saying: "The Committee [of Union and Progress] demands the annihilation of the last remnants of the Armenians and the [Ottoman] government must bow to its demands."

German consuls stationed in Turkey, including Vice Consul Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richner of Erzerum [Erzurum] who was Adolf Hitler's chief political advisor in the 1920s, were eyewitnesses. Hitler said to his generals on the eve of sending his Death's Heads units into Poland, "Go, kill without mercy . . . who today remembers the annihilation of the Armenians."

Henry Morgenthau Sr., the neutral American ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, sent a cable to the U.S. State Department in 1915:

"Deportation of and excesses against peaceful Armenians is increasing and from harrowing reports of eye witnesses [sic] it appears that a campaign of race extermination is in progress under a pretext of reprisal against rebellion."
Morgenthau's successor as Ambassador to Turkey, Abram Elkus, cabled the U.S. State Department in 1916 that the Young Turks were continuing an ". . . unchecked policy of extermination through starvation, exhaustion, and brutality of treatment hardly surpassed even in Turkish history."

Only one Turkish government, that of Damad Ferit Pasha, has ever recognized the Armenian genocide. In fact, that Turkish government held war crimes trials and condemned to death the major leaders responsible.

The Turkish court concluded that the leaders of the Young Turk government were guilty of murder. "This fact has been proven and verified." It maintained that the genocidal scheme was carried out with as much secrecy as possible. That a public facade was maintained of "relocating" the Armenians. That they carried out the killing by a secret network. That the decision to eradicate the Armenians was not a hasty decision, but "the result of extensive and profound deliberations."

Ismail Enver Pasha, Ahmed Cemal Pasha, Mehmed Talât Bey, and a host of others were convicted by the Turkish court and condemned to death for "the extermination and destruction of the Armenians."

The Permanent People's Tribunal recognized the Armenian Genocide on April 16, 1984.

The European Parliament voted to recognize the Armenian Genocide on June 18, 1987.

President Bush issued a news release in 1990 calling on all Americans to join with Armenians on April 24 in commemorating "the more than a million Armenian people who were victims."

President Clinton issued a news release on April 24, 1994, to commemorate the "tragedy" that befell the Armenians in 1915.

The Russian Duma (the lower house of the bicameral Russian legislature) voted on April 20, 1994, to recognize the Armenian Genocide.

Israel officially condemned the Armenian Genocide as Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Yossi Beilin proclaimed on the floor of the Knesset (the Israeli legislature), on April 27, 1994, in answer to the claims of the Turkish Ambassador, that "It was not war. It was most certainly massacre and genocide, something the world must remember."

The Armenian genocide is similar to the Jewish holocaust in many respects. Both people adhere to an ancient religion. Both were religious minorities of their respective states. Both have a history of persecution. Both have new democracies. Both are surrounded by enemies. Both are talented and creative minorities who have been persecuted out of envy and obscurantism.

Issues:


The Republic of Turkey must cease to be the only major country in the world to deny the Armenian Genocide.

The Republic of Turkey must show good will by allowing American aid to present-day Armenia to pass through unhindered.

The Republic of Turkey must cease to train Azerbaijani soldiers in Turkey for the purpose of attacking Armenia. April 3, 1996
link (http://www.umd.umich.edu/dept/armenian/facts/genocide.html)

[Kontra1]

Now that we know the "special" interests of the greeks and those who're not even brave enough even in the cyberworld to show their colors(so we know who we're dealing with here) Let's see more mature disgussion level...

[quote]I also see the disgussion won't go anywhere as long as everyone from the int'l community testifies on our side gets the stamp of being a "Turkish agents"(which I'm suprised to see we had so many friends to testify for us) I see no intelligent base in these childish responses and I see no reason to respond them.


As I said before..I don't give a **** what happened in the past so much...so much that I don't even bother to post about your bloody f*cking greek history. I'm looking to the future...future of my country out of EU.

So, my suggestion to my Turkish friends; not even bother to respond to the greeks..it's known to everyone the stuation of Turkish-greek relationship and nothing unbiased can come from them.

I say to my Turkish friends...don't EVEN bother to explain anything..They've all made up their minds anyway and use the issue to ease their own consicience.Sadly,most of the history being used as a ref. today is written by the criminals of the past with the necassary changes done to wash their hands of their own bloody past.

Just turn this hatered coming against you and your nation to your own benefit and think of your nations future out of EU. NOTHING can be more attarctive than Turkey's national interests.



Kontra1

[Nikitaras]

ok please give me their links here? can I look a little bit?

and this s an other side....



and I wanna refresh some informatin here that s East side in region who lives in Van and Bitlis and Diyarbakir mostly? these are Kurds...So?
Do U know what s best enemy of any Kurd in the world? do you know who are they? They are Armenians. Kurds hate Armenians (maybe it can be clear for someone here)


and


http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/images/fotobu/i_tehcir_80.jpg

In 1915, when the great resettlement of the Armenians began, the railroad lines from central Anatolia ended in Pozanti, in the middle of the Taurus Mountains. From there, one had to continue by road to Syria. It was not until 1916 that the Germans were able to complate the railroad to Aleppo. The Photo shows troops on their way across the Taurus Mountains to Syria, it s not a genocide


regards.

OK boys I'm gonna repost an earlier message because the revisionists seemed to conveniently missed it or more than likely had no defense for it.

No more BS, no more lies, I want you guys to honestly rebut this post:

and the sultan orderet the army for the deportation of the armenians from this region to syria but there was not a genocite not a systematical killing if there is a foult than this foult is thath lot of children and women dieet becos of the lousy helth care and food and watter supply but like you sayed there was a 3 fronts a lot of people dieet from the same reason in anatolia too no food no helth ... is sad but its a resultat of war

Oh this is such a crock of revisionist ****e. The sultan released murderers,rapists,thugs and violent felons from prison which formed The special organization (Teshkilati Mahsusa).

While there was an official special organization founded in December 1911 by the Ottoman government, the second organization that participated in what led to the destruction of the Ottoman Armenian community was founded by the lttihad ve Terraki, technically appeared in July 1914 and was supposed to be different than the already existing organization in one important point, according to the military court and other records, it was meant to be a government in a government(without needing any orders to act). Later in 1914, the Ottoman government decided to draw the direction the special organization was supposed to take by releasing criminals from central prisons to be the central elements of this newly formed special organization. According to the Ottoman commissions attached to the tribunal, for example, the Mzhar commision, in Sivas, as soon as November 1914, 124 criminals were released from Pimian prison, and many other releases followed, in Ankara a few months later, 49 criminals were released from its central prison. Little by little from the end of 1914 to the beginning of 1915, hundreds of prisoners were freed to form the members of this organization that later were charged to escort the convoys of Armenian deportees, the number then grew to thousands. The commander of the Ottoman third army, Vehib called those members of the special organization, the “butchers of the human specy.” This organization was led by the Central Committee Members Doctor Nazim, Behaeddin Sakir, Atif Riza, and former Director of Public Security Aziz Bey. The headquarters of Behaeddin Sakir were in Erzurum, from where he directed the forces of the Eastern vilayets. Aziz, Atif and Nazim Beys operated in Istanbul, and their decisions were approved and implemented by Cevat Bey, the Military Governor of Istanbul.

According to the same commisions and other records, the criminals were chosen by a process of selection, they had to be ruthless butchers to be selected as a member of the special organization. The Mazhar commission during the military court, has provided some lists of those criminals, in one instance for example, from the 65 criminals released 50 were in prison for murder, the lists all gave such a disproportionate ratio between those condemned for murder and others for minor crimes which constituted a clear minority. This process of selection of the criminal was according to most Western researchers clearly indicative of the government's intention to commit mass murder of its Armenian population. It must be noted as well, that according to records, physicians participated in the process of selection, where health professionals were appointed by the war ministry to determine whether the selected convicts would be fit to apply a degree of savagery of killing that was required.

It is estimated that the members of the special organization have killed hundreds of thousands of Armenians

There is your explanation revisionists. It was not a policy of deportation, but a policy of extermination.

To hell with you storybook patriots.

[Nikitaras]

Now that we know the "special" interests of the greeks and those who're not even brave enough even in the cyberworld to show their colors(so we know who we're dealing with here) Let's see more mature disgussion level...

[quote]I also see the disgussion won't go anywhere as long as everyone from the int'l community testifies on our side gets the stamp of being a "Turkish agents"(which I'm suprised to see we had so many friends to testify for us) I see no intelligent base in these childish responses and I see no reason to respond them.


As I said before..I don't give a **** what happened in the past so much...so much that I don't even bother to post about your bloody f*cking greek history. I'm looking to the future...future of my country out of EU.

So, my suggestion to my Turkish friends; not even bother to respond to the greeks..it's known to everyone the stuation of Turkish-greek relationship and nothing unbiased can come from them.

I say to my Turkish friends...don't EVEN bother to explain anything..They've all made up their minds anyway and use the issue to ease their own consicience.Sadly,most of the history being used as a ref. today is written by the criminals of the past with the necassary changes done to wash their hands of their own bloody past.

Just turn this hatered coming against you and your nation to your own benefit and think of your nations future out of EU. NOTHING can be more attarctive than Turkey's national interests.



Kontra1

Τι μαλακας εναι αυτος ο κολο Τουρκος rofl

Look everybody our good friend KKKontra is raging mad. Dude, keep your hate to yourself. Nobody here gives a good God damn what you think of us or the friggin EU. We all know you are nothing but a Turkish Neo-Nazi historical revisionist in severe denial of the horrors your country has visited on an entire nation of people.

Oh and dude, just so you know, you obviously have an inferiority complex. I mean once or twice is understandable but everytime you type the word Greek you use a small g, and when you type Turk you use a capital....C'mon man, its not our fault you were born on the wrong side of history.

Remember, hate the game not the player rofl

[speckfire]

Well, hi speckfire...


Let me clarify,

1-U say we deport all Armenians,first u wrong
(the armenian population was 1.256.403 in 1330 (1914) and Sultan had deported 924.158,it must be clear,others stayed in Istanbul,Izmir and some west Turkey cities.)

I did not say they were deported, Gokhan, your fellow compadré said that, check his post.



and the sultan orderet the army for the deportation of the armenians from this region to syria but there was not a genocite not a systematical killing if there is a foult than this foult is thath lot of children and women dieet becos of the lousy helth care and food and watter supply but like you sayed there was a 3 fronts a lot of people dieet from the same reason in anatolia too no food no helth ... is sad but its a resultat of war .




2-U brought up "punishment". And u think why hadnt we punished some rebels.Again u wrong, The sultan had made some firmans about punishments of rebels(not one side,it s included some Turks,coz there were some Turkish rebels as Armenians rebelsSo The sultan had tried to taken quick precautions agaist rebel Turks and Amenians,Kurds). But please consider "war conditions",u had been invaded by Russians,British,French,...and u must control every fronts while controlling inner rebels...This was so hard.


Ok war conditions were in place, why punish your own entire Armenian population. As I mentioned I was in Eastern Turkey and the only thing I saw were Turks and lot of Kurds yet almost no Armenians.. why?? If rebels were punished, was every Armenian a rebel? Again why didn't I see Armenians in Eastern Turkey. I tons of thier churches but no Armenians.



3-Syria soils were safe for them. Some of them returned to Turkey.



Why was Syria safer when the British and the Arabs were attacking Damascus? How could it be safer? The Turkish Army was retreating from the middle east



4-And u again have seen (if u have a chance,please confirm these numbers) Armenians say "1,5 million people in Genocide" but in 1914 there were totally 1.256.403 million people. And 924.158 (east part) had been brought to Syria.(not a genocide it s a put up from Turkey to Syria)
and how can a human find 1,5 million death?


You know almost 100 years have passed, do really expect to find mass graves? Was there even an attempt by the Turkish governement to find and dig up mass graves? Syria says it has mass graves of Armenians in the Der Zor desert.

[speckfire]

Look what I found . What's the explaination of this? Again what's happening? Why isn't there a post by an Armenian started regarding the "Armenian Genocide" . There was one started by Clearday in defence of the Turkish views but why defend when you're not attacked? Why make an issue out of it?



When silences speak

Turkish Daily News - Sunday, April 17, 2005

Opinion by Elif SAFAK

I first heard the word Armenian while eavesdropping on the conversations of elderly Muslim women. Back when I was a child in Istanbul, there was a small bakery my grandma would send me to for the best yufka in the neighborhood. The place was owned by a modest couple, a short woman who never smiled and her shorter husband who always did. Coming home from there one day, I found a group of women in our living room sipping their teas and praising the yufka of this small bakery as they reached for the pastries. Then I heard one of them ask, Are these bakers Armenians? My grandma nodded as she said: But isn't it obvious? They are such a hard-working couple. One by one the women shared with each other memories of the Armenians they knew back in their childhoods in Sivas, Erzurum, Van, Istanbul, etc.

Trying to cross the information I'd just heard with my image of the bakers in the neighborhood, I had this vision of an insomniac couple baking all kinds of bread every night in their little shops. The scene seemed pretty pleasant to me, almost mystical. Eager to learn more about these people and their ways, I interrupted the chitchat in the room and asked, who on earth were these Armenians? Since that day, it is not the answers that remain anchored in my memory but the silence that followed. I remember the women being somewhat annoyed by my question, and then, annoyed by my very presence in the room. Although I had been sitting in front of their eyes for the past half hour, they had only now taken notice. Suddenly, I had become an outsider.

Recalling that memory, I tend to liken it to a widespread and deeply-rooted reaction in Turkish daily life concerning the Armenian question. We can easily converse about the Armenians in the serenity of our living rooms, we can recall distant memories of a past when we used to live together with our good old Armenian neighbors, and we can even be critical of the Turkish state provided there are no outsiders around. We ourselves, on our own initiative can and do frequently remember the Armenian neighbors we once had, but we do not like to be reminded of them. That afternoon in that living room, I couldn't help but notice my interruption caused uneasiness and a decline in enthusiasm among the women to keep talking in the same vein.

There was a nuance that equally remains etched in my memory. Whenever she uttered the word Armenian, my grandmother lowered her voice without realizing it -- her voice dwindling to an almost confidential whisper. To this day, Grandma's intonation changes when she talks about an Armenian, any Armenian. Clearly, she does not do it deliberately or malevolently. When I ask her the reason why she cannot utter this word aloud, she looks back at me in surprise. Does she lower her voice? Sure she doesn't.

In the passage of time, I came to realize I was not asking her the right question. When the word is Armenian, it is not the sound of the word itself necessarily, but the silence that conveys the uncharted depths of oral history of elderly Muslim women in Turkey.

I conducted the same test on the women of my mother's generation and then the women of mine. The results were somewhat different. Younger women in Turkey had no real difficulty in ****ouncing the word Armenian aloud, as if it was just any other word for them. They didn't have any reason to pause because they didn't have any particular story to tell. They didn't have any particular story to tell because they had no common experience with Armenians. Somehow, somewhere, a body of knowledge was lost between generations of women. Thus, those who were young and didn't know much were the ones who would speak, but, didn't have anything personal to tell. Those who were old and had something personal to tell were the ones that kept quiet, and as such, their stories could not be heard. In either case, the Armenian question remained unspeakable.

History does not only mean written and documented history. History is also oral history. The elderly women in Turkey remember the things Turkish nationalist historians cannot possibly bear to hear. In almost every household in Turkey today, there is a woman of my grandmother's generation. The crucial question is: how can we ever bring that experience out? How can we decode the silence? It is my belief that if we are to look into the dusk of the past and shed light on the atrocities we Turks have allegedly committed against the Armenians, we should not only focus on the archives or written documents, but also pay attention to the unwritten volumes of women's oral histories.

We need to listen to the suppressed memories of the Turkish grandmothers. For, unlike the Turkish nationalists who keep reacting against every critical voice in civil society by systematically propagating collective amnesia, these elderly women do remember.

[Nikitaras]

Look what I found . What's the explaination of this? Again what's happening? Why isn't there a post by an Armenian started regarding the "Armenian Genocide" . There was one started by Clearday in defence of the Turkish views but why defend when you're not attacked? Why make an issue out of it?

The reason the post was started because this week Armenia as well as the civilized world commemorates the 90th anniversary of the horrible genocide that the Young Turk government perpetrated on Turkey's Armenian minority.

Cleardays intentions were to flame and also to desecrate the memories of the people which his government systematicaly exterminated. He also wanted to push the official Turkish mantra of "No genocide was committed". Ironically there are
only a few delusional countries who do not officially recognize the tragedy which was vivisted upon the Armenian people.

Due to the fact that I was busy exposing the lies of our resident revisionist I forgot to offer my solidarity with the Armenian people as they remember the victims of this tragedy.

This event transcends all religious and nationalist ideology it is a black mark on humanity. The fact that even 90 years later some people deny its historical relevance is the height of shame.

[achilles]

As I said before..I don't give a **** what happened in the past so much...so much that I don't even bother to post about your bloody f*cking greek history. I'm looking to the future...future of my country out of EU.

Up! A nerve has been slightly touched there :lol: . I bet that while writing these lines you were thinking how nice it would be if a Greek genocide had taken place.
Hey asshole, if you dont like the EU just keep your stinky ass out of it and stop busting our balls with incoherent nonsense. Let the rest of your compatriots see the daylight. How is the weather in Norway BTW?

So, my suggestion to my Turkish friends; not even bother to respond to the greeks..it's known to everyone the stuation of Turkish-greek relationship and nothing unbiased can come from them.

You keep behaving like a pussy. I dont have to explain why, your posts speak for themselves.

I say to my Turkish friends...don't EVEN bother to explain anything..They've all made up their minds anyway and use the issue to ease their own consicience.Sadly,most of the history being used as a ref. today is written by the criminals of the past with the necassary changes done to wash their hands of their own bloody past.

Yeah yeah, if that makes you feel better after an, indeed, tough thread for your sorry ass...

Just turn this hatered coming against you and your nation to your own benefit and think of your nations future out of EU. NOTHING can be more attarctive than Turkey's national interests.

So perhaps you should go back to your village and help them get out of their poverty, you hypocritical douchebag.

Kontra1

All in all, you entered the discussions as a lying pussy (thanks to sierraone who unmansked you), you kept talking like a flaming hypocritical little piece of ****, and now i think it is a good time for you TO EXIT THE DISCUSSION WITH THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE SHOVED UP YOUR ASS. How is that for an epilogue you little fascist?

Say hi to the beautiful Norway from me will you?

[Nikitaras]

AND PLEASE PLEASE SOMEONE SHOW US WHERE ARE ALL 1,5 DEATHS IN TURKEY? WE COULDNT FIND THEIR COLLECTED GRAVES? WHERE ARE THEY? HOW CAN A NATION HIDE 1,5 MILLION DEATH? ISNT IT WEIRD? ISNT IT CRAP? ISNT IT A HUGE LIE? WORLD HISTORIANS INVESTIGATE TURKISH SOILS,AND WHY DONT THEY FIND ANYTHING? I LIVE IN ISTANBUL WITH SOME ARMENIAN FRIENDS...WE LIVE IN A PEACE,DONT PLAY WITH US.This s political issue btw Armenians,Europe and Turkey. It s not a historical. Dont play with history.


You want mass graves I'll give you mass graves.

WARNING GRAPHIC














http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Visual___Artistic_Resources/Armenia/Aftermath/armenia8.jpg

http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Visual___Artistic_Resources/Armenia/Aftermath/aftermath.html

http://home.att.net/~bibarch/images/mass_grave.jpg

http://imia.cc.duth.gr/turkey/pics/04.jpg

Much more but I don't want to sicken anyone with these horrors.

http://www.arf.am/gaydzer/armenian_genocide.htm

[Kontra1]

I see you got permission from your mod buddies about posting these pictures..eh??

GOOD!...I'm glad to see so many still believes in this myth...and glad to see my concerns getting into your little greek brains :)

Just keep on pushing and pressing Turkey with this BS. Everday goes by,more sees where we're heading and soon there will be enough people to ask for early elections and change the trators in rule and then we'll go on with our business without anybody's intervention in our internal and int'l affairs.

Just remember to vote NO when/if you're asked. ;)

EDIT:To be honest..I really don't understand why the f'ck you're so obsessed with me being in norway at the moment??I was't aware I had to say where I'm located at the moment...so what's the big f*cking deal with that? I really don't see why it bothers you that I can visit people here? are you scared of me being able to travel among you guys so freely? I'm here today, I can be in athens tomorrow..can you stop me?



P.S I'm suprised to hear you're actually smart enough to pick up that detail in my posts...good for you. ;)




Kontra1

[achilles]

To be honest..

Now that was a good one :lol:


Its all been explained about you being in Norway you hypocritical fag. Its too late now...you have been shafted all around.

Go back to the hole you ve been hiding and wait for your next chance to troll

[achilles]

http://www.arf.am/gaydzer/Gen13.JPG

[achilles]

edit

[Nikitaras]

I see you got permission from your mod buddies about posting these pictures..eh??

I don't have any "mod buddies". I posted a graphic warning, if the mods want me to edit the post I will or they will just delete it.

Whats the matter KKKontra? Don't you want the world to see your grandaddy's handiwork?

GOOD!...I'm glad to see so many still believes in this myth...and glad to see my concerns getting into your little greek brains :)

Yes, Yes, we all know its a myth to Turkish Nazis like yourself. The students of history and champions of human rights know better KKKontra.

Just keep on pushing and pressing Turkey with this BS. Everday goes by,more sees where we're heading and soon there will be enough people to ask for early elections and change the trators in rule and then we'll go on with our business without anybody's intervention in our internal and int'l affairs.

Hey you guys denied the existance of mass graves and I provided you photographic evidence. Its not my problem that you guys can't or won't accept responsibility for your forefathers crimes.

Oh and just in case you guys haven't heard or missed the news "Francisco Franco is still dead" rofl

Just remember to vote NO when/if you're asked. ;)

I'm sure they will, Insh' Allah

[Kontra1]

Same ol' ****...So?? aren't you all already convinced yet?? You're definetelly NOT going to convince me other than what I already stated earlier.

Interesting enough though...you're making all these searches for these links and you haven't come accross one link that tells you what armenians did?? strange huh..? such a humanist person like you can't find one f*king link about that.

The day you'll convince me of your real intensions as a humanist,peace lovin' and all that... will be the day you post a link showing what armenians did. Use your "google" brains, I'm sure you'll come up with something kiddo.


Kontra1

[Nikitaras]

Same ol' ****...So?? aren't you all already convinced yet?? You're definetelly NOT going to convince me other than what I already stated earlier.

Interesting enough though...you're making all these searches for these links and you haven't come accross one link that tells you what armenians did?? strange huh..? such a humanist person like you can't find one f*king link about that.

The day you'll convince me of your real intensions as a humanist,peace lovin' and all that... will be the day you post a link showing what armenians did. Use your "google" brains, I'm sure you'll come up with something kiddo.


KKKontra1

There is not one person here who said that Armenians did not commit any war crimes against Turks or defend against the Turkish army especially not me; however, the crux of this argument is the policy of genocide which the Young Turk government carried out on the Armenian population. This is something that you three knuckleheads and many of your countrymen refuse to accept.

I've posted all the links you need and you cannot refute them, I posted about how the Turks used convicted murderes to escort the Armenian columns which you guys have yet to refute and all you do is piss and moan, the whole time spewing your fascistic filth.

Why don't you guys try reading books instead of burning them?

[achilles]

Same ol' ****...So?? aren't you all already convinced yet?? You're definetelly NOT going to convince me other than what I already stated earlier.

Interesting enough though...you're making all these searches for these links and you haven't come accross one link tell you what armenians did?? strange huh..? such a humanist person like you can't find one f'ing link about that.

The day you'll convince me of your real intensions as a humanist,peace lovin' and all that... will be the day you post a link showing what armenians did. Use your "google" brains, I'm sure you'll come up with something kiddo.


Kontra1

Now you beat me to it with this post of yours :lol: ... Yes the Armenians killed a few thousand Turks (estimates vary from 5-20,000). You know, asshole, the Armenians had every right to self-determination after centuries under the Ottoman rule and when they had their chance they tried to cikc some ass.

How many Turks you want to claim dead? 5000? 10? 20? 50? (very unlikely).There is still a long way up to somewhere between 300,000 and 1,500,000 slaughtered Armenians.

Perhaps this penetrated your thick Turkish skull? ;) I dont think so....
*waiting for the next idiotic post to pop up*

[Kontra1]

Oh sh*t...where is my country is heading... I just watched a Turkish TV serie where a greek guy and a Turkish gilrl fall in love.Altough everybody wants them to get together, their great parents totally agains it...they hate eachother.(but I think it'll work out at the end) :(

On another Turkish channel, a greek girl named "Natalia" sings her greek songs that made hit in Turkey(she also lives in Turkey she says)...and on another channel, the greek eurovision song contest rep for this year having an interview and asks for our support when we vote....SH*T...WHAT'S GOING ON.....WE'RE BEING INVADED!!!! :cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli:


Kontra1

[Nikitaras]

Oh sh*t...where is my country is heading... I just watched a Turkish TV serie where a greek guy and a Turkish gilrl fall in love.Altough everybody wants them to get together, their great parents totally agains it...they hate eachother.(but I think it'll work out at the end) :(

On another Turkish channel, a greek girl named "Natalia" sings her greek songs that made hit in Turkey(she also lives in Turkey she says)...and on another channel, the greek eurovision song contest rep for this year having an interview and asks for our support when we vote....SH*T...WHAT'S GOING ON.....WE'RE BEING INVADED!!!! :cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli:


Kontra1

Yeah, and if you and the MHP had your way the Greeks would be rounded up and shot in the back of the head.

http://www.arf.am/gaydzer/Gen16.JPG

The caption says it all...

[Kontra1]

Wasn't that used to be" Kilroy was here" ? :P

Next we'll probably see a picture of an bus accident in greece or a train accident in india with a sign on the corner saying "Turks were here".Hell...it wouldn't suprise me to see pictures of mass graves from bosnia in 10-20 years with similar signs attached on them.

Picture of couple chopped off heads with a couple guys wearing fez is enough to convince you huh :roll:...maybe they were armenians with dead turks?are you a f*cking anthropolog to judge what race the dead people are coming from? how hard was to get couple fezes around that time...gimme a break will ya :roll:

Kontra1

[Clearday-TRForce]

Nikiritas,




I have seen a rudely "abusing" to my ancestor ATATURK recently.Kontra has shown me.Have u seen anything from me to ur ancestors? "NO".WHY? Coz I respect ur nation and ur ancestors.But I do not find same things from u. And for the result I do not wanna type with u anymore.(1) Achilles and other Greek friends are more available to type.




thanks.

[achilles]

Nikiritas,

I have seen a rudely "abusing" to my ancestor ATATURK recently.Kontra has shown me.Have u seen anything from me to ur ancestors? "NO".WHY? Coz I respect ur nation and ur ancestors.But I do not find same things from u. And for the result I do not wanna type with u anymore.(1) Achilles and other Greek friends are more available to type.

thanks.

What a nice excuse to avoid all the embarassment ;)

You are offended rofl ?Kontra-piece-of-**** said he is proud of what your barbarian ancestors did to the Greeks, you said that all greeks are turks-isnt this an offense? ;) This has been a thread full of attacks and you are offended now?

Until you land your twisted brains to the real world i say WHY DONT YOU BOTH GO AND **** EACH OTHER and leave this forum alone? I think we have all had enough of your stupidity. ;)

[Clearday-TRForce]

Achilles, are u serious? again? :cantbeli: Do u believe in that u change my mind with ur personal feelings. I believe in friendship,maybe u dont as I see.
So u back ur friend for his manner. Ok noted. ;)

[Clearday-TRForce]

and note u said a word "barbarian"... ;) it s so funny. U say same things to all great empries...Coz they must be all barbarians...coz they rule...

Such as USA s a barbarian for u,isnt it? for me It s not.
Such as Roma Emp. s a barbarian for u,isnt it? for me It s not.
Such as Byzantine Emp. s a barbarian for u,isnt it? for me It s not.
Such as Ottoman Emp. s a barbarian for u,isnt it? for me It s not.


All empires have got same specs. So u discuss these specs... ;)
and if we hadnt ruled, so u had ruled us.What s this? is it a barbarian?
;)


regards.(as u see I do not show u an "offensive" manner,but u quickly broke it,why? for what?)

[Kontra1]

There you go clearday...see the real face of these f'cking cockroaches. They do what they're best in..HIDE THEIR REAL F*CKING FACES.

****ING COCKROACHES...PARAZITES OF EUROPE



KONTRA1

[Clearday-TRForce]

and I wanna thank u to some "MP users" who send their warm private messages related my friendly manner to people.


thanks.

[Kontra1]

Here you go asshole...let's see if your ****ing stomach will take this...

http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_anatolia/images_of_massacres/pictures_of_anatolian_massacre2.html

...AND READ WHAT MACEDONIANS THINKS ABOUT YOU

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/greekmyth.html

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/GreekPropaganda.html


Maintaining the myth.

Other Europeans have become irritated with the Greek myth of ethnic purity. For instance, in an editorial in The Sunday Telegraph, London, March 27,1994, the Greek attitude is taken to task:

What is the word for this obsessive Greek pseudo-relationship with their country's past (they even have a magazine, Ellenismos, devoted to the subject)? It is not quite pretentiousness. There is too much passion for that. No, the Greeks, the ancient ones, had a word for the modern Greek condition: paranoia. We must accept that Mr Andreas Papandreou (Greek prime minister) and the current EC presidency are the sole legitimate heirs of Pericles, Demosthenes and Aristide the Just. The world must nod dumbly at the proposition that in the veins of the modern Greek ... there courses the blood of Achilles. And their paranoid nationalism is heightened by the tenuousness of that claim.

The Editor of The Sunday Telegraph argues that Greece has been ruthless in erasing traces of ethnic diversity, and suggests that the desperation of its actions, including the Greek claim to a monopoly of the classical past (in which all peoples of European origins have a share) can be explained by the fact that the Greeks today are a mixture of Slavs, Turks, Greeks, Bulgars, Albanians, Vlachs, Jews and Gypsies.

One modern Greek intellectual who now lives outside of that country has reflected on the forces within Greece that foster and sustain the theory of Greek ethnic purity:

In retrospect it is clear to me that my 12 years of Greek schooling, mainly in the 1970s, conspired to instill in me precisely one attitude: an almost unshakable belief in the purity and unity of the Greek people, language and culture ... Belief in the continuity of Greece against all odds was enabled also by the method of withholding information and sealing off interpretive paths. We had, as children, neither the capacity nor the inclination to explore disunities and "impurities.”

Modern Greek citizens who try to assert their ethnic identity are not treated tolerantly in Greece even today. One of these recently said, "There are a million Macedonian speakers [in Greece]. We are entitled to rights, to associations, schools, churches, traditions ... I have a Macedonian ethnic consciousness ... I belong to an ethnic minority which isn't recognized by my State." As a consequence of this statement and others like it, Christos Sideropoulos and another Greek Macedonian, Anastasios (or Tasos) Boulis, repeatedly faced the Greek courts. They were charged with spreading false rumors about the non-Greekness of Macedonia and the existence of a Macedonian minority on Greek territory which is not officially recognized, and with instigating conflict among Greek citizens by differentiating between the speakers of a Slavic language and Greeks. If convicted they faced possible terms of several years' imprisonment and heavy fines .14 More will be said about charges of human rights abuses against Greece in a later chapter. At this point it is enough to recognize the continuing vigor with which Greece asserts an ethnic purity that cannot be substantiated by historical analysis.

Of particular interest are the population changes that have occurred in Aegean Macedonia during the twentieth century. The Greek position is that the Greek citizens of Aegean Macedonia have a genuine claim to historic connection with Macedonia and that the Slavs do not. It is implied that they have this connection since they are Greek and the ancient Macedonians are claimed to have been Greek. However, it is not commonly known, even among Greeks, that a majority of the "Greek" population of Aegean Macedonia can trace its immediate ancestors not to Macedonia, but to Anatolia, western Turkey, since they came from Turkey as refugees in the 1920s during one of the Greek-Turkish wars. The population of western Turkey at the time had been subject to many of the same forces that affected the populations of the southern Balkans, though for various reasons, including the tendency of the Byzantine Empire to move troublesome peoples to this area and the strong presence of peoples of Turkic origin, the mix was even more complex. If the connection of Balkan Greek speakers to the ancient Greeks and thence to the ancient Macedonians is tenuous, the links with the Turkish Greek speakers who came into Aegean Macedonia are even more dubious. This issue will be explained further in another chapter.


It may be that European racist contempt for the Greek revolutionaries of the nineteenth century goes some way toward explaining the persisting determination of the Greeks to create an alternative racial model for themselves. If we juxtapose the nineteenth-century view of the ancient Greeks as Aryans with attitudes towards the ethnic characteristics of the Greek revolutionaries, we can see the enormous burden that the Greeks carried in their dealings with Europe. While it has been a characteristic of new nation-states during the last century and a half to manufacture a suitable cultural, linguistic and ethnic pedigree for themselves, the Greeks have carried this process through to an extent that is unparalleled in Europe. Even today, Greece clings to a European connection via its rather tumultuous relationship with the European community. It is ironic that a part of the continuing European mistrust of the Greeks, as is evident from influential editorial comments such as those cited above, has developed because of the very myths that the Greeks propagate in order to purify their image. Greek myth-making today can be seen as inspired by the wider European racism of the nineteenth and early twentieth century, and even a continuation of that racism. The United States State Department and international human rights organizations have claimed that Greek suppression of ethnic minorities has come out of such policies. These claims will be elaborated in a later chapter.





Kontra1

[Kontra1]

HOW DARE YOU TO TELL ME I DISCRIMINATE MINORITIES... YOU'RE JUST LUCKY YOUR NEIGHBOUR DON'T PROVOKE THEM LIKE YOU DO WITH THE MINORITIES IN MY COUNTRY.

Greece is an Unworthy EU Member

by Gunnar Nissen
Danish newspaper Morgaenavisen Jyllands-Posten 2/26/1999

If this chronicle gives rise to conflicts or trouble, it is not the fault of the Macedonians, nor me. When the politicians in EU countries don't speak out, it is due to ignorance or indifference. Denmark is a member of the EU. It remains a mystery that Greece is too. The member countries must recognize human rights and minorities rights. Those are the demands put in front of the central European states and they must abide by them. That has been hard on Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania who are brought to recognize national minorities, especially that large Russian one. Slovenia is on that point influenced by the Yugoslavian constitution of 1974, an exemplary country with full recognition of small Croatian and Italian minorities. But Greece - Oh Dear! From official Greek side it is bombastically announced: Only Greeks live in Greece. Nonsense! In southeast Europe, not a single state exist of one nationality alone. In Greece, you find a large Turkish minority (who do not wish to be presented as Greeks that has converted to Islam) in Thrace, a small Albanian minority in Epiros and finally a Macedonian minority in Aegean Macedonia, who numbers somewhere between 75.000 and 500.000. An exact estimate doesn't exist, since Greece persistently deny there existence.

If one put some pressure on high ranking civil servants and self-proclaimed experts, one may achieve an admission that "a small Slavic speaking minority exist in Greek Macedonia", but they "do not wish to be a national minority; they can freely use their language". A pack of lies! For many years I have had a friendly relation with numerous Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia - a people that officially doesn't exist. I do speak Greek, but I speak fluently Macedonian. Almost every time I take the train south, over Munich to Balkan, I run into Macedonians from Greece (2. generation of workers). The same happens when I traverse the Greek border. Some people speaks only Greek, but a lot, really a lot, speaks additionally Macedonian ("our mother tongue") which is forbidden as language in school. Last year a couple of shop owners were taken to court -their "crime" was that they had written some words in Macedonian in their shop windows.

When I sit on cafe's in villages in Aegean Macedonia, the conversation always ends at "the Macedonian identity". "What do you in the rest of Europe know about us?" I must admit that it's very little. "We would like to have some Macedonian schools" the man continues at the cafe. "I speak my Macedonian mother tongue, but my son is struggling, although he watches Macedonian TV, Televizija Skopje". He, and the others speak in a low voice, while glancing towards the neighboring table where a man is picking up his phone. Moments later, two angry police officers enter and the gathering around my table splits up. The border control between the Macedonian Republic and Greece are, known to be among the toughest in Europe. Certainly the slowest. Not on the Macedonian side, where the border police take a peek at the Danish passport, after which it's over. But on the other side of the border, the border police confiscate all passports and later we have to spend a long time, be it snow storm or bumming hot, cueing to get the passport back. With particular thoroughness, the custom control ransack the luggage of travelers from the Republic of Macedonia. Foreigners can not be sure to get a travel permission, even when born in Aegean Macedonia in Greece. It has happened that a Canadian bus full of Macedonians with Macedonian names, but born in Aegean Macedonia, were not allowed to enter the country.

When it in 1991 was clear to the Macedonians in the Yugoslav sub-republic Macedonia, that their value norms could not possibly harmonize with the roaring nationalism of Serbia, they split with the Yugoslav republic after a popular referendum - Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina had already done that. The Serbs protested and the Serbian terrorist leader and specialist in ethnic cleansing Vojislav Seselj announced that all he needed was two divisions and then "the Macedonian problem would be solved". Loudest, however, were the protests from Greece, apparently because of the name. The Greek regime could perhaps accept that the new state could call it self Skopje (after it's capital) and the Greeks postulated wildly and crazily that the Macedonian state with it's 2.1 Mio, inhabitants and an army smaller than our national guard might attack it's large neighbor Greece.

The Greeks gave as a reason for not recognizing the Republic of Macedonia, that " we have a Macedonia here in Greece and thus there cannot be a Macedonia just on the opposite site of the border". The logic in this is absurd and I'm ashamed that so many ignorant journalists quoted the Greek reason without comments. Apparently they were unaware that Macedonia is split between three different countries. After a meeting in Brussels, where the EU-recognition of the state of Macedonia was postponed, although Macedonia fulfilled all requirements for recognition, the then Danish foreign minister, Uffe Elleman-Jensen, in a final salute as EU chairman, commented to the Greeks that they had to get themselves together and get the problem solved, concerning the name Macedonia and called it despicable of the Greeks to treat the Macedonians in this way. The former Danish foreign Minister Elleman-Jensen stated in 1993 "not Macedonia is a problem for Europe, but our member Greece". The Greek spokespersons reacted violently, amongst them the former Greek vice prime-minister Athanasios Kannellopoulos, who angrily ****ounced "with his comments, Mr. Jensen is a very bad example of the other foreign ministers. Mr. Jensen said that he'd be ashamed to be Greek because we're against that the new Skopje republic's use of the name Macedonia. To that my answer is: We'd be ashamed if Mr. Jensen was Greek!" In "Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten" the MP Ame Melchior published a letter to the editor that exhibited his lack of knowledge about the populations in the Balkan peninsula under the title "Show concern for our Greek allied". He was answered by "Jyllands-Posten"s correspondent Per Nyholm "Show concern for the Macedonians". Finally the Greeks accepted the name of Macedonia, but only in the form of The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, FYROM.

Now to the decisive point that journalists ought to have oriented "themselves about: In ancient times and in the Osmanian era, Macedonia was an area without internal borders, where the people after the 6 century had the south Slavic language Macedonian as mother tongue. It was in Macedonia the Cyrillic alphabet came to life, named after the monk Kyril. The bible was translated by the Macedonians to old-church-Slavic, that had the same influence on ecumenical language in eastern Europe as Latin had amongst the Catholics in western and central Europe. The Cyrillic alphabet spread not only to Bulgaria and Serbia, but also to Russia and other eastern Slavic countries. "Genuine" Hellenes described the ancient population of Macedonia as barbarians and Phillip II and Alexander the Great greekness are rather dubious. Albanian historiansname them Illyrians, the oldest nation on Balkan and the Albanians are arguably their ancestors. Of higher importance was the Slav's immigration to the Balkan area in the 6 century. The Slavic tribe that settled in Macedonia took name after the province and preserved their language to modem times (with some grammatical exceptions...)

After the Balkan wars of 1912 and 1913, Macedonia was split in three. Aegean Macedonia came under Greece, Vardarmacedonia under Serbia and Pirimacedonia under Bulgaria. Vardarmacedonia was in 1945 after a heroic partisan war, one of the six republics in the new federal Yugoslavia and as promised by Tito, the republic got full national and cultural independence - with due acknowledgment of it's compact Albanian and small Turkish minorities. As Yugoslavia split in 1991, the country had 23 Mio. inhabitants. Had all of Yugoslavia had the birthrate of the Albanians in western Macedonia and Kosovo, they would have been at 50 Mio! Kosovo and western Macedonia would have had to let the Albanians migrate to the rest of Serbia and Macedonia with resulting unemployment rates around 50%. The Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia are not oppressed. They have all rights - except the one to rise the Albanian flag and get an Albanian university - which wouldn't make a lot of sense as soon as they again can study at the large university in Prestina in Kosovo, Tito's pride. By the way, the ambassador of the Republic of Macedonia in Denmark is Albanian, the much respected Muhammed Halili. Could one imagine the situation: the government of the North German federated state Schleswig Holstein declare: Schleswig is German and in Germany, Germans are living. Thus with no further notice, the Danish schools, including the "Duborgskolen" high school and "Jaruplund" high school, the Flensburg newspaper, Danish libraries and other foreign institutions will close. The Danish language is declared "not-wanted"? How about the opposite situation - if everything German was forbidden in southern Denmark? Unthinkable of course!

When a person misbehaves, it is in the first line the closest people's duty to intervene. National oppression is taking place in many countries outside the EU. But Greece is an EU member and is thus a "part of the family". But do we intervene, we, the closest people? No, we shut up. Of ignorance or misunderstood solidarity with the Greek leaders, who as the Serbs, consider themselves "superbalkanian". Other people knows more about the oppression than I, but I know a great many and every year more ignored and oppressed Slavic Macedonians in the Greek part of Macedonia. Can we justify our silence? I'm sure that Greece' unwillingness to accept the Republic of Macedonia is due to their black conscience over the oppression of Macedonians in Greece. Greece is (yet another) unworthy member of the EU.

[fantassin]

Perhaps you missed this one? (the sarcasm does not address to you Clearday, but to our dear poodle ;) )

Canadian Parliament recognizes Armenian genocide
Last Updated Sun, 25 Apr 2004 16:21:16
OTTAWA - The House of Commons has reversed a long-standing policy and passed a resolution denouncing the Turks for committing genocide against Armenians in 1915.

The vote passed easily, 153-68.

The motion said: "That this House acknowledges the Armenian genocide of 1915 and condemns this act as a crime against humanity." link (http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/04/21/canada/armenia040421)


The French National Assembly has formally recognised as genocide the slaughter of more than a million Armenians living in the Ottoman empire between 1915 and 1917.

Some countries, Russia, Canada, and Turkey's regional rival Greece, have also deemed the slaughter a genocide, but France has now become the first major western European nation to do so link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/102803.stm) .

Australia Recognizes the Armenian Genocide
(http://www.cilicia.com/armo10i_australia.html)

Gee, even you memetia have recognized the following:

Turkey, which recognises only that 300,000 people died, had already warned that such a vote would sour trade and diplomatic relations. link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/102803.stm)

Bah, after all its only 300,000 people, so what genocide are we talking about? Admit it my brother, you killed more people than the Hutus did in Rwanda, 80 years later.

Hey hey...check this out:
Belgium Recognizes the Armenian Genocide
(http://www.cilicia.com/armo10i_belgium.html)

Uruguay Recognizes the Armenian Genocide
(http://www.cilicia.com/armo10i_uruguay.html)

Wow, look at that:
Recognition of Armenian Genocide in USA (http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Recognition_of_Armenian_Genocide_in_USA)

My brother, take a look at other countries that have recognized the Armenian Genocide (http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=International_Recognition_of_Armenian_Genocide)

Hey memeti, if you want to learn more about what your ancestors prouldy did here is a more comprehensive bibliography:

Armenian

A.Hambaryan, S. Stepanyan, "Armenian Genocide" Yerevan, 1995, 69 p.
G. B. Gharibdjanyan, "Taron’s Eagle" Yerevan, 1996, 109 p.
Murad Karapetyan, "The Army of Republic of Armenia 1918-1920", Yerevan, 1996, 138 p.
"Armenian Genocide in Turkey, Illuminated in Bulgarian Diplomatic Documents", Yerevan 1996, 36 p.
Vardan Grigoryan, "The Life Devoted to Armenians", Yerevan 1996, 88 p.
Nikoghos Adonc, "Armenian Question", Yerevan 1996, 244 p.
S.K. Poghosyan, "Western Armenians on the Threshold of Genocide", Yerevan 1997, 70 p.
Vergine Svazlyan "Great Genocide in Western Armenian Legends and Turk-lingual Songs", Yerevan 1997, 31 p.
Ahmed Refik, "Two Committees – Two Decisions" Yerevan 1997, 98 p.
"Armenian Parliament Condemns Armenian Genocide" Yerevan 1997, 40 p.
"Foreigners about Armenian Question and Armenian Genocide", Yerevan 1997, 37 p.
L. Dolukhanyan "Hovhannes Kajaznuni – the Architect" Yerevan 1997, 53 p.
Artem Ohanjanyan, "Year 1915. Irrefutable Facts – Austrian Documents about Armenian Genocide", Yerevan 1997, 238 p.
Artem Ohanjanyan, "Franz Werfel: Forty Days of Musa Dagh", Text of the same name as TV movie, Yerevan 1997, 54 p.
D. A. Spirov, "Dreadful Slaughter of Armenians (1894-1896)", Yerevan 1997, 64 p.
Norair Sarukhanyan, "Armenian Question in Armenian Social-Political Mind and Historical Records", Yerevan 1997, 271 p.
Emil Dilon, "Situation in Turkish-Armenia", Yerevan 1997, 54 p.
Azat Hambaryan, "Armenian Remarkable Historians Series", Yerevan 1997, 54 p.
G. Abajyan, "Reflection of Armenian Genocide in Vahram Papasyan’s Works", Yerevan 1997, 50 p.
G. Emin , "Monologue of Siamanto", Yerevan 1997, 28 p.
Stepan Stepanyan, "Johannes Lepsius and Armenia", Yerevan 1998, 52 p.,
L. Barseghyan, "International Community Condemns Armenian Genocide", Yerevan 1998, 28 p.
"Johannes Lepsius and Armenian People" Digest, Yerevan 1998, 71 p.
V. E. Khodjabekyan, "Employment Problems of the Transitional Period in Armenia", Yerevan 1998, 240 p.
Manya Ghazaryan, "Vardkes Surenyanc and Armenian Genocide", Yerevan 1998, 28 p.
Anna Petrosyan, "The Cry of The Blessed Virgin" Yerevan 1998, 55 p.
Bakhtiyar Hovakimyan, "Armenian Genocide in Armenian Theatre (1895-1995)", Yerevan 1998, 139 p.
N. Sarukhanyan, "Leo and Armenian Question", Yerevan 1998, 23 p.
V. Khachatryan, "Armenia in 15-7 centuries B.C. (Ancient Armenian History)", Yerevan 1998, 159 p.
"Djivani, Recordable Song-book" Composed by Manuk Manukyan, Yerevan 1998, 188 p.
D. Ghasabayan, "Nikomedia and Eastern Thrace 1920-1922", Yerevan 1998, 30 p.
H.Azatyan, "Vital Agreements", Yerevan 1998, 150 p.
Levon Melik-Shahnazaryan, "Azerbaijan Military Crime Against Peaceful Population of Nagorno-Kharabagh", Yerevan 1998, 210 p.
L. Barseghyan "France Publicly Recognizes Armenian Genocide", Yerevan 1998, 133 p.
M. Karapetyan, "Questions of Armenian Genocide of 1915-1916 Years in Armenian Historical Records", Yerevan 1998, 372 p.
M. A. Muradyan "Armenian Genocide and Russian Social-Political Mind", Yerevan 1998, 182 p.
"Discussions in Canadian Parliament of April 1996 about the Condemnation of Armenian Genocide", Responsible Editor L. Barseghyan, Yerevan 1999, 119 p.
"Condemnation of the Armenian Genocide by International Organizations", Composed by L. Barseghyan, Yerevan 1999, 49 p.
L.Barseghyan, "The Armenian Genocide; The Genocide Monument; The Genocide Museum. Guide", Yerevan 1999
"Henry Morgenthau and the Armenian People", Digest, Yerevan 1999, 70 p.
Azat Hambaryan, "Liberation Movements in Western Armenia (1898-1908)", Yerevan 1999, 477 p.
"Questions of Armenian Genocide History and Historical Records, Series", Yerevan 1999, 72 p.
"Losses of the Armenian People Caused by the Armenian Genocide", L. Barseghyan, Yerevan 1999, 13 p.
G. Kacerov, "Armenia and the Armenian Question Before and After the War", Yerevan 1999, 78 p.
I. A. Arabyan, "Genocide and Its Punishability", Yerevan 1999, 92 p.
Dimitr Spirov, "Armenia and Sultan Abdul Hamid", Yerevan 2000, 60 p.
"Condemnation of the Armenian Genocide in British Parliament (1915-1918)", Yerevan 2000, 97 p.
"Discussions of Armenian Genocide in the House of Lords of Great Britain Parliament (14 April 1999)", Yerevan 2000, 43p.
"Tumanyan and Armenian Historical Destiny", composed by L. Shahverdyan, Yerevan 2000, 285p.
Armin Teophil Wegner, "The Way Without Return. Martyrdom in Letters", Yerevan 2000, 143 p.
Anahit Kirakosyan, "Margarita Arami Brutyan, Armenian Remarkable Woman Scientist Biography Matters", Yerevan 2000, 83 p.
Ervand Gasparyan, "France and the Great Genocide (1915-1918)", Yerevan 2000, 309 p.
Russian

"Do not kill! – Armenian Genocide and Russian Poetry 1895-1918", composed by M. D. Amirkhanyan, Yerevan, 1996, 123 p.
Hmayak Martirosyan, "The Great Silk Way and Armenia", Yerevan 1996, 68 p.
Vergine Svazlyan "The Great Genocide in Western Armenian Legends and Turkish-language Songs", Yerevan 1997, 31 p.
G. Avetisyan, "Northern Mesopotamia and Southwestern Areas of the Armenian Plateau", Yerevan 1997
Tunyan V., "Russia and the Armenian Question", 1998, 240 p.
"Armenian Genocide and Russian Publications" Digest under M. D. Amirkhanyan edition, Yerevan 1998, 272 p.
Arsen Avakyan, "Genocide of 1915. Mechanisms of Decision-making and Execution", Yerevan 1999, 110 p.
English

Tessa Hofmann, "Armin Wegner", Yerevan, 1996, 16 p.
Verjine Svazlyan, "The Armenian Genocide in the Memoirs and Turkish Language Songs of the Eye-witness Survivors", Yerevan 1999, 44p.
L.Barseghyan, "The Armenian Genocide; The Genocide Monument; The Genocide Museum", Yerevan 1999, 8 p.

If you promiss not to do it again, we will embrace you in our European genocide-free big happy family.

http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/armenian_genocide_6.jpg
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/armenian_genocide_2.jpg

Enjoy the rest of this fine day my european brother :hug:

PWNED HUGE TIME !!!!!!!

rofl

Well done Achilles....great post.

Reminds me of a NATO course I did a couple of years back; the Turks were always trying to play the Westernized civilized part while the Greeks were always saying "it's a third world country, look at their GDP, it's ridiculous, its half ours and not fit to be in the EU..."

Not fit to be in the EU. Damn right, no need for Turkey there.

[Kontra1]

Reminds me of a NATO course I did a couple of years back; the Turks were always trying to play the Westernized civilized part while the Greeks were always saying "it's a third world country, look at their GDP, it's ridiculous, its half ours and not fit to be in the EU..
Not fit to be in the EU. Damn right, no need for Turkey there.

are you still there??? we're talking about the greek now...I know...it's kind of hard to avoid it but here you go incase you want to take a look at your civilized buddy. They certainly deserve to be in the EU :lol:


Greece is an Unworthy EU Member



by Gunnar Nissen
Danish newspaper Morgaenavisen Jyllands-Posten 2/26/1999

If this chronicle gives rise to conflicts or trouble, it is not the fault of the Macedonians, nor me. When the politicians in EU countries don't speak out, it is due to ignorance or indifference. Denmark is a member of the EU. It remains a mystery that Greece is too. The member countries must recognize human rights and minorities rights. Those are the demands put in front of the central European states and they must abide by them. That has been hard on Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania who are brought to recognize national minorities, especially that large Russian one. Slovenia is on that point influenced by the Yugoslavian constitution of 1974, an exemplary country with full recognition of small Croatian and Italian minorities. But Greece - Oh Dear! From official Greek side it is bombastically announced: Only Greeks live in Greece. Nonsense! In southeast Europe, not a single state exist of one nationality alone. In Greece, you find a large Turkish minority (who do not wish to be presented as Greeks that has converted to Islam) in Thrace, a small Albanian minority in Epiros and finally a Macedonian minority in Aegean Macedonia, who numbers somewhere between 75.000 and 500.000. An exact estimate doesn't exist, since Greece persistently deny there existence.

If one put some pressure on high ranking civil servants and self-proclaimed experts, one may achieve an admission that "a small Slavic speaking minority exist in Greek Macedonia", but they "do not wish to be a national minority; they can freely use their language". A pack of lies! For many years I have had a friendly relation with numerous Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia - a people that officially doesn't exist. I do speak Greek, but I speak fluently Macedonian. Almost every time I take the train south, over Munich to Balkan, I run into Macedonians from Greece (2. generation of workers). The same happens when I traverse the Greek border. Some people speaks only Greek, but a lot, really a lot, speaks additionally Macedonian ("our mother tongue") which is forbidden as language in school. Last year a couple of shop owners were taken to court -their "crime" was that they had written some words in Macedonian in their shop windows.

When I sit on cafe's in villages in Aegean Macedonia, the conversation always ends at "the Macedonian identity". "What do you in the rest of Europe know about us?" I must admit that it's very little. "We would like to have some Macedonian schools" the man continues at the cafe. "I speak my Macedonian mother tongue, but my son is struggling, although he watches Macedonian TV, Televizija Skopje". He, and the others speak in a low voice, while glancing towards the neighboring table where a man is picking up his phone. Moments later, two angry police officers enter and the gathering around my table splits up. The border control between the Macedonian Republic and Greece are, known to be among the toughest in Europe. Certainly the slowest. Not on the Macedonian side, where the border police take a peek at the Danish passport, after which it's over. But on the other side of the border, the border police confiscate all passports and later we have to spend a long time, be it snow storm or bumming hot, cueing to get the passport back. With particular thoroughness, the custom control ransack the luggage of travelers from the Republic of Macedonia. Foreigners can not be sure to get a travel permission, even when born in Aegean Macedonia in Greece. It has happened that a Canadian bus full of Macedonians with Macedonian names, but born in Aegean Macedonia, were not allowed to enter the country.

When it in 1991 was clear to the Macedonians in the Yugoslav sub-republic Macedonia, that their value norms could not possibly harmonize with the roaring nationalism of Serbia, they split with the Yugoslav republic after a popular referendum - Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina had already done that. The Serbs protested and the Serbian terrorist leader and specialist in ethnic cleansing Vojislav Seselj announced that all he needed was two divisions and then "the Macedonian problem would be solved". Loudest, however, were the protests from Greece, apparently because of the name. The Greek regime could perhaps accept that the new state could call it self Skopje (after it's capital) and the Greeks postulated wildly and crazily that the Macedonian state with it's 2.1 Mio, inhabitants and an army smaller than our national guard might attack it's large neighbor Greece.

The Greeks gave as a reason for not recognizing the Republic of Macedonia, that " we have a Macedonia here in Greece and thus there cannot be a Macedonia just on the opposite site of the border". The logic in this is absurd and I'm ashamed that so many ignorant journalists quoted the Greek reason without comments. Apparently they were unaware that Macedonia is split between three different countries. After a meeting in Brussels, where the EU-recognition of the state of Macedonia was postponed, although Macedonia fulfilled all requirements for recognition, the then Danish foreign minister, Uffe Elleman-Jensen, in a final salute as EU chairman, commented to the Greeks that they had to get themselves together and get the problem solved, concerning the name Macedonia and called it despicable of the Greeks to treat the Macedonians in this way. The former Danish foreign Minister Elleman-Jensen stated in 1993 "not Macedonia is a problem for Europe, but our member Greece". The Greek spokespersons reacted violently, amongst them the former Greek vice prime-minister Athanasios Kannellopoulos, who angrily ****ounced "with his comments, Mr. Jensen is a very bad example of the other foreign ministers. Mr. Jensen said that he'd be ashamed to be Greek because we're against that the new Skopje republic's use of the name Macedonia. To that my answer is: We'd be ashamed if Mr. Jensen was Greek!" In "Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten" the MP Ame Melchior published a letter to the editor that exhibited his lack of knowledge about the populations in the Balkan peninsula under the title "Show concern for our Greek allied". He was answered by "Jyllands-Posten"s correspondent Per Nyholm "Show concern for the Macedonians". Finally the Greeks accepted the name of Macedonia, but only in the form of The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, FYROM.

Now to the decisive point that journalists ought to have oriented "themselves about: In ancient times and in the Osmanian era, Macedonia was an area without internal borders, where the people after the 6 century had the south Slavic language Macedonian as mother tongue. It was in Macedonia the Cyrillic alphabet came to life, named after the monk Kyril. The bible was translated by the Macedonians to old-church-Slavic, that had the same influence on ecumenical language in eastern Europe as Latin had amongst the Catholics in western and central Europe. The Cyrillic alphabet spread not only to Bulgaria and Serbia, but also to Russia and other eastern Slavic countries. "Genuine" Hellenes described the ancient population of Macedonia as barbarians and Phillip II and Alexander the Great greekness are rather dubious. Albanian historiansname them Illyrians, the oldest nation on Balkan and the Albanians are arguably their ancestors. Of higher importance was the Slav's immigration to the Balkan area in the 6 century. The Slavic tribe that settled in Macedonia took name after the province and preserved their language to modem times (with some grammatical exceptions...)

After the Balkan wars of 1912 and 1913, Macedonia was split in three. Aegean Macedonia came under Greece, Vardarmacedonia under Serbia and Pirimacedonia under Bulgaria. Vardarmacedonia was in 1945 after a heroic partisan war, one of the six republics in the new federal Yugoslavia and as promised by Tito, the republic got full national and cultural independence - with due acknowledgment of it's compact Albanian and small Turkish minorities. As Yugoslavia split in 1991, the country had 23 Mio. inhabitants. Had all of Yugoslavia had the birthrate of the Albanians in western Macedonia and Kosovo, they would have been at 50 Mio! Kosovo and western Macedonia would have had to let the Albanians migrate to the rest of Serbia and Macedonia with resulting unemployment rates around 50%. The Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia are not oppressed. They have all rights - except the one to rise the Albanian flag and get an Albanian university - which wouldn't make a lot of sense as soon as they again can study at the large university in Prestina in Kosovo, Tito's pride. By the way, the ambassador of the Republic of Macedonia in Denmark is Albanian, the much respected Muhammed Halili. Could one imagine the situation: the government of the North German federated state Schleswig Holstein declare: Schleswig is German and in Germany, Germans are living. Thus with no further notice, the Danish schools, including the "Duborgskolen" high school and "Jaruplund" high school, the Flensburg newspaper, Danish libraries and other foreign institutions will close. The Danish language is declared "not-wanted"? How about the opposite situation - if everything German was forbidden in southern Denmark? Unthinkable of course!

When a person misbehaves, it is in the first line the closest people's duty to intervene. National oppression is taking place in many countries outside the EU. But Greece is an EU member and is thus a "part of the family". But do we intervene, we, the closest people? No, we shut up. Of ignorance or misunderstood solidarity with the Greek leaders, who as the Serbs, consider themselves "superbalkanian". Other people knows more about the oppression than I, but I know a great many and every year more ignored and oppressed Slavic Macedonians in the Greek part of Macedonia. Can we justify our silence? I'm sure that Greece' unwillingness to accept the Republic of Macedonia is due to their black conscience over the oppression of Macedonians in Greece. Greece is (yet another) unworthy member of the EU.

[Clearday-TRForce]

fantassin hi,


u welcome. Turkey s the sixth largest economy in Europe. As I remember u have got 25 member. So think others?


and I see u have posted some photos,ok lets go to post...I will easily post who made a genocide from Armenians. The worst thing we have lived with them during 800 years and they supported the Russians,British in WW1. Good here s the Armenians Turkish Genocide;



http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_anatolia/images_of_massacres/armenian_massacre_of_women_and_children.JPG

http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_anatolia/images_of_massacres/Permission_certificate.jpg

http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_anatolia/images_of_massacres/erzincan_vagavir_massacre.jpg

http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_anatolia/images_of_massacres/turkish_males_massacred_by_armenians.jpg

http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_anatolia/images_of_massacres/massacred_with_axes_in_hasankale.jpg

http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_anatolia/images_of_massacres/burnt_by_armenians3.jpg

http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_anatolia/images_of_massacres/martyred_women_and_children.jpg

http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_anatolia/images_of_massacres/mustak_efendi_family_murdered_by_armenians.jpg


DO YOU WANNA SEE MORE DISGUSTING INNOCENT TURKISH DEATHS MORE U CIVILIZED PEOPLE?

DO U WANNA SEE UR BACKING ARMENIANS MASSACRES TO TURKISH PEOPLE IN EAST,U FIRST WORLD MEMBERS?


regards.

[Clearday-TRForce]

DO U WANNA MORE TO SEE HONORABLE CIVILISED MAN?


http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_anatolia/images_of_massacres/erzurum_excavation6.jpg


http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_anatolia/images_of_massacres/erzurum_excavation5.jpg

DO U WANNA SEE UR CIVILISED MASSACRES MAN?

http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_anatolia/images_of_massacres/erzurum_excavation3.jpg

http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_anatolia/images_of_massacres/erzurum_excavation_in_turkish_press2.jpg

WOULD U LIKE TO SEE OUR INNOCENT TURKISH SKELETORS MAN?
WOULD U LIKE TO SHARE UR CIVILISED MANNERS MAN?
WOULD U LIKE TO SHARE UR LIES WITH ME MAN?

http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_anatolia/images_of_massacres/hakmehmet04.jpg

WOULD U LIKE TO KNOW MORE MAN?
U CIVILISEDS....
U BACK POLITICIANS
U BACK UNHUMANS
http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_anatolia/images_of_massacres/hakmehmet27.jpg

YOU LIERS

[Clearday-TRForce]

WOULD U LIKE TO SEE WHAT UR ARMENIAN BROTHERS DID?

http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_anatolia/images_of_massacres/hakmehmet36.jpg

http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_anatolia/images_of_massacres/hakmehmet35.jpg


YOU CIVILISED PEOPLE,EUROPE PARLEMENTOS
HOW CAN WE TRUST YOU MAN? HOW CAN WE TRUST YOU?
http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_anatolia/images_of_massacres/exca4.gif

COULD U SUPPOSE THAT KIDDING PEOPLE?
U LIERS

[Kontra1]

GOD DAMN YOU LIARS!!!


see what your armenian buddies did ONLY 13 years ago...

http://www.diplomaticobserver.com/news_read.asp?id=1167




Kontra1

[Jani.R]

GOD DAMN YOU LIARS!!!


Kontra1


I am with you brother!

[achilles]

Achilles, are u serious? again? :cantbeli: Do u believe in that u change my mind with ur personal feelings. I believe in friendship,maybe u dont as I see.
So u back ur friend for his manner. Ok noted. ;)

Yep again, and there is more coming if you dont get serious. You have vomitted all your filth and disgust against Greece, Armenians, Kurds and the EU in general and now you ask for apologies because you feel OFFENDED? :lol: And it seems that you have forgotten your very own previous posts so dont talk to me from inside the well of 'friendship' and 'peace' ;) You might be accused of hypocricy...


And i see that our little bitch is back with a vengeance :lol: :

Here you go asshole...let's see if your f*** stomach will take this...

I know its not easy to let go...you butt still hurts from not been able to make one single point here. I guess you brain zapped due to this overload of facts that has been presented here. Dont worry, it will go :petting:

Now its your time to just post ANYTHING in order to save your sorry ass.
I am sorry you little bitch, but i wont play your game from now on. I feel absolutely no need to defend Macedonia. Anyone with a minimal amount of brains and knowledge knows that Macedonia was, is and will eternally remain Greek. Apparently you fail to fullfill those two criteria.

But you got one thing right, i must give you the credit for that: my stomach is indeed very sensitive to pathetic, disgusting little pricks like yourself.

As of now, you are barking on your own bitch ;)

[Kontra1]

GOD DAMN YOU LIARS!!!


Kontra1


I am with you brother!


GOD BLESS YOU BROTHER!!!

Kontra1

[Jani.R]

GOD DAMN YOU LIARS!!!


Kontra1


I am with you brother!


GOD BLESS YOU BROTHER!!!

Kontra1

*scratches balls*

Yeah.

[achilles]

:lol:

[Kontra1]

Achilles, are u serious? again? :cantbeli: Do u believe in that u change my mind with ur personal feelings. I believe in friendship,maybe u dont as I see.
So u back ur friend for his manner. Ok noted. ;)

Yep again, and there is more coming if you dont get serious. You have vomitted all your filth and disgust against Greece, Armenians, Kurds and the EU in general and now you ask for apologies because you feel OFFENDED? :lol: And it seems that you have forgotten your very own previous posts so dont talk to me from inside the well of 'friendship' and 'peace' ;) You might be accused of hypocricy...


And i see that our little bitch is back with a vengeance :lol: :

Here you go asshole...let's see if your f*** stomach will take this...

I know its not easy to let go...you butt still hurts from not been able to make one single point here. I guess you brain zapped due to this overload of facts that has been presented here. Dont worry, it will go :petting:

Now its your time to just post ANYTHING in order to save your sorry ass.
I am sorry you little bitch, but i wont play your game from now on. I feel absolutely no need to defend Macedonia. Anyone with a minimal amount of brains and knowledge knows that Macedonia was, is and will eternally remain Greek. Apparently you fail to fullfill those two criteria.

But you got one thing right, i must give you the credit for that: my stomach is indeed very sensitive to pathetic, disgusting little pricks like yourself.

As of now, you are barking on your own bitch ;)


I guess you can't handle being finally exposed huh??? Hiding behind others' fights for your OWN use.

I'd love to see your hairy greek ass fighting 20 years of macedonian terror with the support of Turkish army...like you did with kurds in my country for the last 20 years. MAY YOU ALL BURN IN HELL FOR DOING THAT!!!! YOU HELPED KILLING 30.000 PEOPLE IN MY COUNTRY
AND WE'LL NEVER FORGIVE YOU FOR THAT.

http://img14.imgspot.com/u/05/109/19/yunanpkk1.jpg



Kontra1[/img]

[achilles]

Look at that...the memetia got down to googling and came up with sources :lol:


The problem is that you have done that with a tiny lag...whats wrong? Are you running on a slow connection? :lol:

The sources are all there for people to see.
And perhaps you would like to check the poll on the 'off topic' board just to get an idea of how much you convinced the forum with your constant bull****ting and trolling...go on bitching brothers :)

[achilles]

I guess you can't handle being finally exposed huh???

And its good to see that you are finally developing some sort of strange sense of hunour :lol:

Bitch on my brothers....fetch boy, fetch :lol:

[achilles]

MAY YOU ALL BURN IN HELL FOR DOING THAT!!!! YOU HELPED KILLING 30.000 PEOPLE IN MY COUNTRY.

Oh well...if you say so :(

[Jani.R]

MAY YOU ALL BURN IN HELL FOR DOING THAT!!!! YOU HELPED KILLING 30.000 PEOPLE IN MY COUNTRY.

Oh well...if you say so :(

Did you think you would get away killing my brothers? I will call Satan to have spesial place for Greeks, no more easy life for you!

[Kontra1]

And perhaps you would like to check the poll on the 'off topic' board just to get an idea of how much you convinced the forum with your constant bull****ting and trolling...go on bitching brothers :)

Ask me if I give a ****...anything new? , but I'll bet they'll be thinking something else abou YOU now.


Kontra1

[achilles]

but I'll bet they'll be thinking something else abou YOU now.

Oh i bet...you demolished my arguments and my image on this forum, mate. I will never forgive you for that one :petting:

:lol:

[Kontra1]

but I'll bet they'll be thinking something else abou YOU now.

Oh i bet...you demolished my arguments and my image on this forum, mate. I will never forgive you for that one :petting:

:lol:

Your image? who gives a sh*t about your image.


Greece is an Unworthy EU Member

by Gunnar Nissen
Danish newspaper Morgaenavisen Jyllands-Posten 2/26/1999

If this chronicle gives rise to conflicts or trouble, it is not the fault of the Macedonians, nor me. When the politicians in EU countries don't speak out, it is due to ignorance or indifference. Denmark is a member of the EU. It remains a mystery that Greece is too. The member countries must recognize human rights and minorities rights. Those are the demands put in front of the central European states and they must abide by them. That has been hard on Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania who are brought to recognize national minorities, especially that large Russian one. Slovenia is on that point influenced by the Yugoslavian constitution of 1974, an exemplary country with full recognition of small Croatian and Italian minorities. But Greece - Oh Dear! From official Greek side it is bombastically announced: Only Greeks live in Greece. Nonsense! In southeast Europe, not a single state exist of one nationality alone. In Greece, you find a large Turkish minority (who do not wish to be presented as Greeks that has converted to Islam) in Thrace, a small Albanian minority in Epiros and finally a Macedonian minority in Aegean Macedonia, who numbers somewhere between 75.000 and 500.000. An exact estimate doesn't exist, since Greece persistently deny there existence.

If one put some pressure on high ranking civil servants and self-proclaimed experts, one may achieve an admission that "a small Slavic speaking minority exist in Greek Macedonia", but they "do not wish to be a national minority; they can freely use their language". A pack of lies! For many years I have had a friendly relation with numerous Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia - a people that officially doesn't exist. I do speak Greek, but I speak fluently Macedonian. Almost every time I take the train south, over Munich to Balkan, I run into Macedonians from Greece (2. generation of workers). The same happens when I traverse the Greek border. Some people speaks only Greek, but a lot, really a lot, speaks additionally Macedonian ("our mother tongue") which is forbidden as language in school. Last year a couple of shop owners were taken to court -their "crime" was that they had written some words in Macedonian in their shop windows.

When I sit on cafe's in villages in Aegean Macedonia, the conversation always ends at "the Macedonian identity". "What do you in the rest of Europe know about us?" I must admit that it's very little. "We would like to have some Macedonian schools" the man continues at the cafe. "I speak my Macedonian mother tongue, but my son is struggling, although he watches Macedonian TV, Televizija Skopje". He, and the others speak in a low voice, while glancing towards the neighboring table where a man is picking up his phone. Moments later, two angry police officers enter and the gathering around my table splits up. The border control between the Macedonian Republic and Greece are, known to be among the toughest in Europe. Certainly the slowest. Not on the Macedonian side, where the border police take a peek at the Danish passport, after which it's over. But on the other side of the border, the border police confiscate all passports and later we have to spend a long time, be it snow storm or bumming hot, cueing to get the passport back. With particular thoroughness, the custom control ransack the luggage of travelers from the Republic of Macedonia. Foreigners can not be sure to get a travel permission, even when born in Aegean Macedonia in Greece. It has happened that a Canadian bus full of Macedonians with Macedonian names, but born in Aegean Macedonia, were not allowed to enter the country.

When it in 1991 was clear to the Macedonians in the Yugoslav sub-republic Macedonia, that their value norms could not possibly harmonize with the roaring nationalism of Serbia, they split with the Yugoslav republic after a popular referendum - Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina had already done that. The Serbs protested and the Serbian terrorist leader and specialist in ethnic cleansing Vojislav Seselj announced that all he needed was two divisions and then "the Macedonian problem would be solved". Loudest, however, were the protests from Greece, apparently because of the name. The Greek regime could perhaps accept that the new state could call it self Skopje (after it's capital) and the Greeks postulated wildly and crazily that the Macedonian state with it's 2.1 Mio, inhabitants and an army smaller than our national guard might attack it's large neighbor Greece.

The Greeks gave as a reason for not recognizing the Republic of Macedonia, that " we have a Macedonia here in Greece and thus there cannot be a Macedonia just on the opposite site of the border". The logic in this is absurd and I'm ashamed that so many ignorant journalists quoted the Greek reason without comments. Apparently they were unaware that Macedonia is split between three different countries. After a meeting in Brussels, where the EU-recognition of the state of Macedonia was postponed, although Macedonia fulfilled all requirements for recognition, the then Danish foreign minister, Uffe Elleman-Jensen, in a final salute as EU chairman, commented to the Greeks that they had to get themselves together and get the problem solved, concerning the name Macedonia and called it despicable of the Greeks to treat the Macedonians in this way. The former Danish foreign Minister Elleman-Jensen stated in 1993 "not Macedonia is a problem for Europe, but our member Greece". The Greek spokespersons reacted violently, amongst them the former Greek vice prime-minister Athanasios Kannellopoulos, who angrily ****ounced "with his comments, Mr. Jensen is a very bad example of the other foreign ministers. Mr. Jensen said that he'd be ashamed to be Greek because we're against that the new Skopje republic's use of the name Macedonia. To that my answer is: We'd be ashamed if Mr. Jensen was Greek!" In "Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten" the MP Ame Melchior published a letter to the editor that exhibited his lack of knowledge about the populations in the Balkan peninsula under the title "Show concern for our Greek allied". He was answered by "Jyllands-Posten"s correspondent Per Nyholm "Show concern for the Macedonians". Finally the Greeks accepted the name of Macedonia, but only in the form of The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, FYROM.

Now to the decisive point that journalists ought to have oriented "themselves about: In ancient times and in the Osmanian era, Macedonia was an area without internal borders, where the people after the 6 century had the south Slavic language Macedonian as mother tongue. It was in Macedonia the Cyrillic alphabet came to life, named after the monk Kyril. The bible was translated by the Macedonians to old-church-Slavic, that had the same influence on ecumenical language in eastern Europe as Latin had amongst the Catholics in western and central Europe. The Cyrillic alphabet spread not only to Bulgaria and Serbia, but also to Russia and other eastern Slavic countries. "Genuine" Hellenes described the ancient population of Macedonia as barbarians and Phillip II and Alexander the Great greekness are rather dubious. Albanian historiansname them Illyrians, the oldest nation on Balkan and the Albanians are arguably their ancestors. Of higher importance was the Slav's immigration to the Balkan area in the 6 century. The Slavic tribe that settled in Macedonia took name after the province and preserved their language to modem times (with some grammatical exceptions...)

After the Balkan wars of 1912 and 1913, Macedonia was split in three. Aegean Macedonia came under Greece, Vardarmacedonia under Serbia and Pirimacedonia under Bulgaria. Vardarmacedonia was in 1945 after a heroic partisan war, one of the six republics in the new federal Yugoslavia and as promised by Tito, the republic got full national and cultural independence - with due acknowledgment of it's compact Albanian and small Turkish minorities. As Yugoslavia split in 1991, the country had 23 Mio. inhabitants. Had all of Yugoslavia had the birthrate of the Albanians in western Macedonia and Kosovo, they would have been at 50 Mio! Kosovo and western Macedonia would have had to let the Albanians migrate to the rest of Serbia and Macedonia with resulting unemployment rates around 50%. The Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia are not oppressed. They have all rights - except the one to rise the Albanian flag and get an Albanian university - which wouldn't make a lot of sense as soon as they again can study at the large university in Prestina in Kosovo, Tito's pride. By the way, the ambassador of the Republic of Macedonia in Denmark is Albanian, the much respected Muhammed Halili. Could one imagine the situation: the government of the North German federated state Schleswig Holstein declare: Schleswig is German and in Germany, Germans are living. Thus with no further notice, the Danish schools, including the "Duborgskolen" high school and "Jaruplund" high school, the Flensburg newspaper, Danish libraries and other foreign institutions will close. The Danish language is declared "not-wanted"? How about the opposite situation - if everything German was forbidden in southern Denmark? Unthinkable of course!

When a person misbehaves, it is in the first line the closest people's duty to intervene. National oppression is taking place in many countries outside the EU. But Greece is an EU member and is thus a "part of the family". But do we intervene, we, the closest people? No, we shut up. Of ignorance or misunderstood solidarity with the Greek leaders, who as the Serbs, consider themselves "superbalkanian". Other people knows more about the oppression than I, but I know a great many and every year more ignored and oppressed Slavic Macedonians in the Greek part of Macedonia. Can we justify our silence? I'm sure that Greece' unwillingness to accept the Republic of Macedonia is due to their black conscience over the oppression of Macedonians in Greece. Greece is (yet another) unworthy member of the EU.


http://img14.imgspot.com/u/05/109/19/yunanpkk1.jpg

abdullah öcalan-leader of the kurdish terror organization PKK(listed on the world terror org. list)


Kontra1

[Clearday-TRForce]

The Turkish Tragedy By John Dewey
Published in The New Republic, 12 November 1928



The tragedy in Turkey is more extensive than the sad plight of minorities. Those who have the patience to refrain in the Near East from a premature partisanship are likely soon to arrive at a state of mind in which all parties are so much to blame that the question of assigning responsibility is at most one of quantities and proportions. But a deeper and fuller acquaintance with the sufferings of all these peoples brings with it a revulsion. One becomes disgusted with the whole affair of guilt. Pity for all populations, minority and majority alike, engulfs all other sentiments- except that of indignation against the foreign powers which have so unremittingly and so cruelly utilized the woes of their puppets for their own ends.

The situation in Turkey with respect to Turks, Armenians and Greeks alike meets all the terms of the classic definition of tragedy, the tragedy of fate. A curse has been laid upon all populations and all have moved forward blindly to suffer their doom.

It is a tragedy with only victims, not heroes, no matter how heroic individuals may have been. There are villains, but they are muffled figures appearing upon the open stage only for fleeting glimpses. They are the Great Powers, among which it is surely not invidious to select Russia and Great Britain by name. It is easy to become a fatalist in the presence of the history of Asia Minor and the Balkans; any one who would write history in terms of Providence is well advised to keep clear of these territories.

We were in Brusa, the seat of the Ottoman power before the capture of Constantinople, one of the most beautiful and in natural promise most prosperous of the cities of Anatolian Turkey. As we walked the streets we passed alternately by the closed shops and houses formerly kept by Greeks and Armenians who are now dead or deported in exchange for Turks in Greece, and by the ruins of buildings of the Turkish population burnt by the Greeks in their retreat. We saw business houses which had changed hands back and forth, the Greeks seizing the property of Turkish merchants and compelling the latter to flee the city when they were in power, and Turkish merchants in present possession of trades and commercial institutions formerly belonging to Greeks. There was a jumble with no outstanding fact except that of general suffering and ruin. It struck me as a symbol of the whole situation, only on a smaller scale and with less bloodshed and rapine than is found in most parts of the Anatolian territory.

The valley of "Green Brusa' was full of flourishing tobacco crops. Even they had a voice speaking indirectly of misery. A few years ago no tobacco was grown in this region. It was introduced by the Turks expelled from Macedonia now precariously occupied by the Greeks-precariously because Serbs and Bulgars both claim it in the name of nationalism with Turks nourishing resentment in memory of their long and industrious residence from which they have been violently expelled. Thus the flourishing tobacco told the same tale as the declining silk-cocoon business, the latter languishing because it was the industry of Greeks now forced to remove. I know nothing which speaks more urgently of the common tragedy than the fact that the cruel exchange of populations by the half million, this uprooting of men, women, and children transferring them to places where they do not want to go and where they are not wanted, has seemed to honest and kind persons the only hope for the avoidance of future atrocities.

Brusa serves also as a symbol of another phase of the situation. We passed through the Jewish quarter, and found the Jews still in possession of their homes and property, the more flourishing perhaps because of the total absence of their former commercial competitors, the Greeks and Armenians. Unbidden the thought comes to mind: Happy the minority which has had no Christian nation to protect it. And one recalls that the Jews took up their abode in "fanatic" Turkey when they were expelled from Europe, especially Spain, by saintly Christians, and they have lived here for some centuries in at least as much tranquility and liberty as their fellow Turkish subjects, all being exposed alike to the rapacity of their common rulers. To one brought up, as most Americans have been, in the Gladstonian and foreign-missionary tradition, the condition of the Jews in Turkey is almost a mathematical demonstration that religious differences have had an influence in the tragedy of Turkey only as they were combined with aspirations for a political separation which every nation in the world would have treated as treasonable. One readily reaches the conclusion that the Jews in Turkey were fortunate that a Zionistic state had not been built up which should feel strong enough to intervene in Turkish politics and stimulate a separatist movement and political revolt. In contrast, the fate of the Greeks and Armenians, the tools of nationalistic and imperialistic ambitions of foreign powers, makes one realize how accursed has been the minority population that had the protection of a Christian foreign power.

Unfortunately the end is not yet, even with the completed exchange of populations, and the accompanying misery of peoples at least temporarily homeless, often unacquainted with the language of their home-kin, with thousands of orphans and beggared refugees, as numerous among the Turks as among the Armenians and Greeks, even if our Christian benevolence, still under the influence of foreign political propaganda, does not hear so much about or experience the same solicitude for Turkish woes. The end is not yet because, in the case of the Armenians at least, the great powers have not even yet become willing to refrain from experimenting at their expense. One can hardly blame the Greeks in their unsettled and unstable condition for asking that a considerable portion of the deported Armenians be again deported, this time from Greek soil. But what shall we say when we read that already at Geneva a plea has been made for the creation of the Armenian "home" in Caucasian Turkey-a home that would require protection by some foreign power and be the prelude to new armed conflicts and ultimate atrocities? Few Americans who mourn, and justly, the miseries of the Armenians, are aware that till the rise of nationalistic ambitions, beginning with the 'seventies, the Armenians were the favored portion of the population of Turkey, or that in the Great War, they traitorously turned Turkish cities over to the Russian invader; that they boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population. I do not mention these things by way of appraising or extenuating blame because the story of provocations and reprisals is a futile as it is endless; but it indicates what happened in the past to both Armenian and Turkish populations when the minority element was taken under the protecting care of a foreign Christian power, and what will recur if the Armenians should be organized into a buffer state. Nor is it likely to be better in "little Armenia", if the Armenians of Latin Catholic persuasion are deposited between the Turks to the north and Syria to the south, which is, according to newspaper reports, to be the French policy in connection with their mandated territory.

If human wit is baffled in seeking constructive measures which shall transform the tragic scene into one of happiness, history at least makes clear a negative lesson. Nothing but evil to all parties has come in the past or will come in the future from the attempts of foreign nations to utilize the national aspirations of minority populations in order to advance their own political interests, while they can conceal and justify their villainous courses by appeal to religion. After all the Turks are here; there is a wide territory in which they form an undisputed majority; for centuries the land has been their own; the sentiments have gathered about it that always attend long habitation. Whether we like it or not, other elements in the population must accommodate themselves to this dominant element, as surely as, say, immigrants in America have to adjust their political aspirations and nationalistic preferences to the fact of a unified national state. If a fiftieth of the energy, money and planning that has been given to fostering antagonisms among the populations had been given to searching out terms upon which the populations could live peaceably together without the disruption of Turkey, the situation today would be enormously better than it is. Whether the European great powers have learned the lesson that their protection and aid is a fatal and tragic gift, there is no way of knowing. But it is at least time that Americans ceased to be deceived by propaganda in behalf of policies which are now demonstrated to bring death and destruction impartially to all elements, and which are nauseating precisely in the degree that they are smeared over with sentiments alleged to be derived from religion. Finally, if slowly, the Turks also have been converted to nationalism. The disease exists in a virulent form at just this moment. It will abate or be exacerbated in just the degree in which the Turkish nation is accepted in good faith as an accomplished fact by other nations, or in which the old tradition of intervention, intrigue and incitation persists. In the latter case, the bloody tragedy of Turkey and the Balkans will continue to unroll.




regards (respect true history,historians-not politicians)

[Clearday-TRForce]

There Was No Genocide: Interview with Prof.Bernard Lewis By Dalia Karpel



Half a year ago historian Bernard Lewis incurred a huge insult in Israel. The Tel Aviv municipality changed its mind to bestow on him honorary citizenship because of his statements in the French paper "Le Monde" which were interpreted as denial of the Armenian genocide and ended with Lewis standing in front of a criminal court. Already last week everything looked different. Tel Aviv University organized a special evening party for Lewis on the occasion of the publication of the Hebrew version of his book, "The Middle East: Two Thousand Years of History." Former Prime Minister Shimon Peres, Labour Party leader Ehud Barak, and other respectable people addressed the party, there was a lot of applause and a lot of honours. For Lewis, this evening a sort of compensation for the insult half a year ago.

In this interview, Lewis wishes to clarify the circumstances of the scandal, which aroused huge criticism against him , as well as in Israel, and caused him to stand trial.[Lewis said], "Four lawsuits were filed against me in Paris and all were based on my interview in 'Le Monde' on November 16, 1993. Among other things, the interviewers asked me on the massacres of the Armenians in 1915. I was aware of the risk entailed in any critical interpretation of such events. I was not enthusiastic to discuss this subject in the narrow framework of a journalistic interview. But the question was posed in an honest way, so I agreed to be interviewed. I never thought that a professional historian could refuse to respond to a question which falls within my expertise. I told them that the issue is not whether the massacres happened or not, but rather if these massacres were as a result of a deliberate preconceived decision of the Turkish government. I told them that there is no evidence for such a decision. The attempt to deal with such doubts through courts and libel cases did not cause these historians to change their minds."

The legal suits against me were filed by several organizations, in their eyes my views, or rather my doubts, arouse opposition. One of the suits based itself on the French Law which regards the denial of the Jewish Shoah as a criminal offense, the three other suits were civil suits." The verdicts of these suits were given in March, June and July 1995 respectively. Two out of the three suits were rejected. In the third suit, it was not proved that "I was guided by any consideration alien to my vocation as historian, but I made a fault that I did cite in the interview 'elements which go against my thesis,' and thus overlooked the pain of the Armenians. The verdict was that I had to pay one franc to all the parties."

Lewis continues: "Wrong assumptions were also adopted by journalists of "Haaretz" in connection to the whole polemics. These are mainly two issues: a) that the massacres of the Armenians in 1915 and the extermination of the Jews of Europe are basically events of the same kind; b) any critical discourse of the Armenian massacres is similar to Neo-Nazi denial of the Shoah. "Anybody who has a minimum concept of the historical evidence will admit that these analogies have no validity. The Armenians are proud of their struggle for an independent Armenia against the Ottoman regime. It was a national liberation movement, and they fought with great courage. But what happened to the Armenians has no similarity to what happened to the Jews in cold-blooded bureaucracy."

[i]Q: Why is this distinction so important for you?

"Because I am not a Turk nor an Armenian and I have no allegiance to any of these groups. I am a historian and my loyalties are to truth. The concept of genocide was defined legally. It is a term that the UN used and the Nuremberg trials made use of it [as well]. I side with words which have accurate meaning. In my view a loose and ambiguous use of words is bad."The meaning of genocide is the planned destruction of a religious and ethnic group, as far as it is known to me, there is no evidence for that in the case of the Armenians. The deniers of Holocaust have a purpose: to prolong Nazism and to return to Nazi legislation. Nobody wants the 'Young Turks' back, and nobody want to have back the Ottoman Law. What do the Armenians want?

"The Armenians want to benefit from both worlds. On the one hand, they speak with pride of their struggle against the Ottoman despotism, while on the other hand, they compare their tragedy to the Jewish Holocaust. I do not accept this. I do not say that the Armenians did not suffer terribly. But I find enough cause for me to contain their attempts to use the Armenian massacres to diminish the worth of the Jewish Holocaust and to relate to it instead as an ethnic dispute."



regards. (respect true history,historians-not politicians)

[Clearday-TRForce]

SOME CIVILS BACK ARMENIANS,SOME EUROPE PARLIMENTOS BACK ARMENIANS...CIVILIZATION WOWWWW...



TURKISH DIPLOMATS KILLED BY THE ARMENIAN TERRORISTS DURING THEIR DUTY Date City / Occupation Name/Surname
27.01.1973 Santa Barbara / Consul General Mehmet BAYDAR
Santa Barbara / Consul Bahadir DEMIR
22.10.1975 Vienna / Ambassador Danis TUNALIGIL
24.10.1975 Paris / Ambassador Ismail EREZ
Paris / Driver Talip YENER
16.02.1976 Beirut / First Secretary Oktar CIRIT
09.06.1977 Vatican City / Ambassador Taha CARIM
02.06.1978 Madrid / Ambassador’s wife Necla KUNERALP
Madrid / Retired Ambassador Besir BALCIOGLU
12.10.1979 The Hague / Ambassador’s son Ahmet BENLER
22.12.1979 Paris / Tourism Counsellor Yilmaz ÇOLPAN
31.07.1980 Athens / Administrative Attache Galip ÖZMEN
Athens / Administrative Attaché’s daughter Neslihan ÖZMEN
17.12.1980 Sydney / Consul General Carik ARIYAK
Sydney / Security Attaché Engin SEVER
04.03.1981
Paris / Counsellor for Labour Affairs Reþat MORALI
Paris / Counsellor for Religious Affairs Tecelli ARI
09.06.1981 Geneva / Secretary M.Savas YERGÜZ
24.09.1981 Paris / Security Attaché Cemal ÖZEN
28.01.1982 Los Angeles / Consul General Kemal ARIKAN
08.04.1982 Ottawa / Counsellor for Commercial Affairs Kani GÜNGÖR
04.05.1982 Boston / Honorary Consul General Orhan GÜNDÜZ
07.06.1982 Lisbon / Administrative Attaché Erkut AKBAY
27.08.1982 Ottawa /Colonel, Military Attaché Atilla ALTIKAT
09.09.1982 Bourgas / Administrative Attaché Bora SÜELKAN
08.01.1983 Lisbon / Administrative Attaché’s wife, wounded in the armed assault directed against her husband Erkut Akbay on 07 06 1982, died on 08 01 1983 Nadide AKBAY
09.03.1983 Belgrade / Ambassador Galip BALKAR
14.07.1983 Brussels / Administrative Attaché Dursun AKSOY
27.07.1983 Lisbon / Counsellor’s wife Cahide MIHÇIOÐLU
28.04.1984 Teheran / Secretary’s wife Iþýk YÖNDER
20.06.1984 Vienna / Attaché for Labour Affairs Erdoðan ÖZEN
19.11.1984 Vienna / International Official Enver ERGUN
07.10.1991 Athens / Press Attaché Çetin GÖRGÜ
11.12.1993 Baghdad / Administrative Attaché Çaðlar YÜCEL
04.07.1994 Athens / Embassy Counsellor Haluk SÝPAHÝOÐLU



MEHMET BAYDAR

27 January 1973

Los Angeles/USA
The Armenian assaults against Turkish citizens started in 1973 when Mehmet Baydar and Bahadir Demir, Turkish Consul General and Consul in Los Angeles, were murdered by a 78-year-old American Armenian named Gurgen (Karakin) Yanikian.

Inviting Baydar and Demir to the Baltimore Hotel in Santa Barbara by declaring that he wished to give a painting of Abdulhamid as a gift to Turkey, Yanikian shot the two Turkish diplomats dead. He was arrested for murder and sentenced to life imprisonment, Yanikian was paroled on 31 December 1984 and died shortly afterwards.

This incident, constituting the first assault against the Turkish diplomats, launched a chain of murders and became a template for the subsequent attacks by Armenian terrorists.



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BAHADIR DEMIR

27 January 1973

Los Angeles/USA

The Armenian assaults against Turkish citizens started in 1973 when Mehmet Baydar and Bahadir Demir, Turkish Consul General and Consul in Los Angeles, were murdered by a 78-year-old American Armenian named Gurgen (Karakin) Yanikian.

Inviting Baydar and Demir to the Baltimore Hotel in Santa Barbara by declaring that he wished to give a painting of Abdulhamid as a gift to Turkey, Yanikian shot the two Turkish diplomats dead. He was arrested for murder and sentenced to life imprisonment, Yanikian was paroled on 31 December 1984 and died shortly afterwards.

This incident, constituting the first assault against the Turkish diplomats, launched a chain of murders and became a template for the subsequent attacks by Armenian terrorists.



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DANIS TUNALIGIL

Vienna/Austria

22 October 1975

Turkey’s Vienna Ambassador Danis Tunaligil was murdered by three terrorists raiding the Embassy.

When the Turkish Airline Office in Beyrouth was bombed on 20 February 1975, the letter left in the location by ASALA’s Esir Yanikian group that undertook the attack’s responsibility declared that they would fight against the imperialists for the Armenians’ rightful case and that the attacks would aim at Turkey, Iran and United States and that this case was only a beginning.

On 22 October 1975, three persons bearing automatic weapons forced their way into the Turkish Embassy in Vienna, neutralised the guards and entered the Ambassador’s office. Receiving an affirmative reply to their question in Turkish to Danis Tunaligil if he were the Ambassador, they shoot him with automatic weapons. Tunaligil died on the spot and the murderers rapidly left the premises and fled in an automobile.



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ISMAIL EREZ

Paris/France

24 October 1975

Turkey’s Paris Ambassador Ismail Erez and his driver Talip Yener were murdered in the vicinity of the Embassy. The Ambassador’s car was ambushed at around 13.30 hours at the Bir Hakeim Bridge on Seine River and Ismail Erez and his driver Talip Yener were murdered by automatic weapon fire. The attack was owned by an organisation that called itself the Armenian Genocide Justice Commandos.



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TALIP YENER

Paris/France

24 October 1975

Turkey’s Paris Ambassador Ismail Erez and his driver Talip Yener were murdered in the vicinity of the Embassy. The Ambassador’s car was ambushed at around 13.30 hours at the Bir Hakeim Bridge on Seine River and Ismail Erez and his driver Talip Yener were murdered by automatic weapon fire. The attack was owned by an organisation that called itself the Armenian Genocide Justice Commandos.



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OKTAR CIRIT

Beyrouth/Lebanon

16 February 1976

Turkey’s Beyrouth Embassy First Secretary Oktar Cirit became the victim of Armenian terrorism while sitting at a hall. The attack was owned by the ASALA, which made its name known for the first time.



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TAHA CARIM

Rome/Italy

9 June 1977

Turkey’s Vatican Ambassador Taha Carim was killed by the cross fire of two terrorists in front of the Embassy’s residence. The attack was owned this time by the Armenian Genocide Justice Commandos organisation.



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NECLA KUNERALP

Madrid/Spain

2 June 1978

Three terrorists opened fire on the car of Turkey’s Madrid Ambassador Zeki Kuneralp whose wife Necla Kuneralp and retired Ambassador Besir Balcioglu lost their lives in this attack owned by the organisation that called itself the Armenian Genocide Justice Commandos organisation. For the first time in this incident, a foreigner had lost his life in an attack directed against Turks. That was the Ambassador’s driver Antonio Torres.




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BESIR BALCIOGLU

Madrid/Spain

2 June 1978

Three terrorists opened fire on the car of Turkey’s Madrid Ambassador Zeki Kuneralp whose wife Necla Kuneralp and retired Ambassador Besir Balcioglu lost their lives in this attack owned by the organisation that called itself the Armenian Genocide Justice Commandos organisation. For the first time in this incident, a foreigner had lost his life in an attack directed against Turks. That was the Ambassador’s driver Antonio Torres.


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AHMET BENLER

The Hague/Netherlands

12 October 1979

Ahmet Benler, son of Turkey’s The Hague Ambassador Özdemir Benler, was killed in an armed attack. This case was owned separately by the ASALA and the Armenian Genocide Justice Commandos organisation.



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YILMAZ COLPAN

Paris/France

22 December 1979

Turkey’s Paris Tourism Counsellor Yilmaz Colpan was murdered as a result of the attack by a terrorist. This case was the second attack in Paris of the Armenian terrorism. A person calling the news agencies thereafter said that the Armenian Genocide Justice Commandos was responsible for the assaults in Rome, Madrid and Paris and added that it was killing the Turkish diplomats because Turkey did not grant the rights of Armenians.



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GALIP ÖZMEN

Athens/Greece

31 July 1980

Turkey’s Athens Embassy Administrative Attaché Galip Özmen and his 14-year-old daughter Neslihan Özmen were killed in an armed attack by a terrorist while his wife Sevil Özmen and son Kaan Özmen survived though seriously wounded. The attack was owned this time by the ASALA.



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NESLIHAN ÖZMEN

Athens/Greece

31 July 1980

Turkey’s Athens Embassy Administrative Attaché Galip Özmen and his 14-year-old daughter Neslihan Özmen were killed in an armed attack by a terrorist while his wife Sevil Özmen and son Kaan Özmen survived though seriously wounded. The attack was owned this time by the ASALA.



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SARIK ARIYAK

Sydney/Australia

17 December 1980

Turkey’s Sydney Consul General Sarik Ariyak and his security guard Engin Sever became the victims of Armenian terrorism.

Aside from this case,

- Dogan Türkmen, Turkey’s Ambassador to Switzerland, came out alive from the attack on 6 February 1980 in Bern,

- Fire was opened on 17 April 1980 on the official car of Turkey’s Vatican Ambassador Vecdi Türel. Both Türel and his security guard Tahsin Güvenc were wounded in this attack, and

- Selcuk Bakkalbasi, the Press Attaché of Turkish Embassy in Paris, was wounded in an armed attack on 26 September 1980.



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ENGIN SEVER

Sydney/Australia

17 December 1980

Turkey’s Sydney Consul General Sarik Ariyak and his security guard Engin Sever became the victims of Armenian terrorism.

Aside from this case,

- Dogan Türkmen, Turkey’s Ambassador to Switzerland, came out alive from the attack on 6 February 1980 in Bern,

- Fire was opened on 17 April 1980 on the official car of Turkey’s Vatican Ambassador Vecdi Türel. Both Türel and his security guard Tahsin Güvenc were wounded in this attack, and

- Selcuk Bakkalbasi, the Press Attaché of Turkish Embassy in Paris, was wounded in an armed attack on 26 September 1980.



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RESAT MORALI

Paris/France

4 March 1981

Resat Morali and Tecelli Ari, Counsellors of Labour and Religious Affairs at the Turkish Embassy in Paris were attacked by two terrorists when they were taking their car in front of the Labour Attaché’s office. Morali was killed on the spot while the Religious Affairs Attaché Ari succumbed to death at the hospital where he was rushed with serious wounds. The attack was owned by ASALA in this third murderous attack of the Armenian terrorism and Turkey gave a protest note to France for not properly protecting the Turkish diplomats.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


TECELLI ARI

Paris/France

4 March 1981

Resat Morali and Tecelli Ari, Counsellors of Labour and Religious Affairs at the Turkish Embassy in Paris were attacked by two terrorists when they were taking their car in front of the Labour Attaché’s office. Morali was killed on the spot while the Religious Affairs Attaché Ari succumbed to death at the hospital where he was rushed with serious wounds. The attack was owned by ASALA in this third murderous attack of the Armenian terrorism and Turkey gave a protest note to France for not properly protecting the Turkish diplomats.



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M. SAVAS YERGÜZ

Geneva/Switzerland

9 June 1981

Mehmet Savas Yergüz, Secretary of the Turkish Consul General in Geneva, lost his life in an armed attack shortly after leaving the office for going home. The attack was owned by the ASALA. Mardiros Camgozian, the Lebanese Armenian terrorist arrested after the attack, received a 15-year imprisonment sentence.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


CEMAL ÖZEN

Paris/France

24 September 1981

Four Armenian terrorists occupying the premises housing the Turkish Consulate General and the office of Cultural Attaché, hostaged 56 Turkish officials and citizens and killed security guard Cemal Özen who attempted to attack and wounded Consul General Kaya Inal. The terrorists wanted Turkey to release 12 political detainees and to send them to Paris. As they realised that this demand would not be complied with, they surrendered to the police some 15 hours after. Turkey warned France once more and France demented the attack that was owned by the ASALA. Four Armenian terrorists named Vasken Sakoseslian, Kevork Abraham Gozlian, Aram Avedis Basmacian and Agop Abraham Turfanian, received 7-year imprisonment sentences. The court verdict received a large dissentment in Turkey.

Also in 1981,

- Turkey’s Copenhagen Labour Attaché Cavit Demir came out with small arm wounds on 2 April in the lift of the apartment house where he lived, and

- Turkey’s Rome Embassy Second Secretary Gökberk Ergenekon survived with minor wounds an attack that was directed against him on 25 October on a street.



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KEMAL ARIKAN

Los Angeles/USA

28 January 1982

Turkey’s Los Angeles Consul General Kemal Arikan was killed by the Tashnak militant Hampig Sasunian, who was sentenced to life imprisonment.



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ORHAN GÜNDÜZ

Boston/USA

5 May 1982

Turkey’s Boston Honorary Consul General Orhan Gündüz was killed in an armed attack.
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ERKUT AKBAY

Lisboa/Portuga

7 June 1982

Turkey’s Lisbon Embassy Administative Attaché Erkut Akbay died as a result of an armed attack on his car. His wife Nadide Akbay succumbed later to death at the hospital where she was brought with corporeal wounds.



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NADIDE AKBAY

Lisboa/Portuga

7 June 1982

Turkey’s Lisbon Embassy Administative Attaché Erkut Akbay died as a result of an armed attack on his car. His wife Nadide Akbay succumbed later to death at the hospital where she was brought with corporeal wounds.
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ATILLA ALTIKAT

Ottawa/Canada

27 August 1982

Atilla Altikat, the Military Attaché at the Turkish Embassy in Ottawa, was killed in an armed assault.



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BORA SÜELKAN

Bourgos/Bulgaria

9 September 1982

Bora Süerlan, Administrative Attaché of the Turkish Consulate General in Bourgos, was killed by a terrorist attack.

Also in 1982,

- Kani Güngör, Commercial Attaché in the Ottawa Embassy of Turkey, was wounded in an attack on 8 April,

- Kemal Demirer, Rotterdam Consul General of Turkey, was wounded in an attack in front of his residence on 21 July. He came out of this attack with minor wounds and the attacker was arrested while trying to get away.

- On 7 August, two ASALA terrorists made an armed attack in Esenboga Airport of Ankara. There were eight casualties and seventy two injuries in this attack, constituting the first within Turkey of the Armenian terrorism.



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GALIP BALKAR

Belgrad/Yugoslavia

9 March 1983

An armed assault was made against Turkey’s Belgrade Ambassador Galip Balkar on 9 March 1983 by two terrorists. Mortally wounded in this attack, Balkar died on 11 March. A Yugoslavian student also lost his life in this incident. Terrorists Kirkor Levonian and Raffi Alexander were sentenced to 20 years of imprisonment on 9 March 1984, exactly one year after the incident.



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DURSUN AKSOY

Bruxelles/Belgium

14 July 1983

Turkey’s Brussels Embassy Administrative Attaché Dursun Aksoy was murdered by Armenian terrorists.
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CAHIDE MIHCIOGLU

Lisbon/Portugal

27 July 1983

The Lisbon Embassy of Turkey was occupied and those within the building were hostaged by five Armenian terrorists. Cahide Mihcioglu, wife of Embassy Counsellor Yurtsev Mihcioglu, was killed during this incident. The Portuguese police saved the hostages by an operation and killed all five terrorists. The attack was owned by an organisation that called itself the Armenian Revolutionary Army, which threatened with death the Portuguese Prime Minister Mario Soarez because of the death of the terrorists.

On 16 June, a terrorist opened fire on the people at the Grand Bazaar in Istanbul. Two persons were killed and twenty-one were wounded in this attack of which the author was killed on the spot. It was later ascertained that he was an Armenian.

A bomb exploded in front of the Turkish Airlines office in Paris-Orly Airport. Two Turks, four Frenchmen, one American and one Swedish died and sixty-three persons, of whom twenty-eight were Turks were wounded in this attack, named later as the “Orly massacre”.



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ISIK YÖNDER

Tehran/Iran

28 April 1984

Isik Yönder, husband of Turkey’s Teheran Embassy Secretary Sadiye Yönder, who was a businessman doing trade with Iran, was killed by an ASALA militant.
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ERDOGAN ÖZEN

Wien/Austria

19 November 1984

Turkey’s Vienna Embassy Labour Attaché Erdogan Özen was killed as a result of the explosion of a bomb planted in his car. This incident was owned by the Armenian Revolutionary Army.
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ENVER ERGUN

Wien/Austria

19 November 1984

Enver Ergün, an official at the UN Representation of Turkey, was killed as a result of the explosion of a bomb planted in his car. This incident too was owned by the Armenian Revolutionary Army.

A terrorist trying to plant a bomb on the car of Isil Ünel, Turkey’s Teheran Embassy Deputy Commercial Attaché, was blown to pieces as the bomb exploded in his hands on 28 March 1984.

The next day, Hasan Servet Öktem and Ismail Pamukcu, First Secretary and Deputy Attaché of the Turkish Embassy in Teheran, were wounded in an armed assault in front of their houses.


CIVILIZATIONNNNNNNNNNNNN HERE...CIVILS BACK MASSACRES COZ THEY ARE TURKS...NOT IMPORTANT,THE IMPORTANT THING S OUR CIVILIZATIONNNNNN....



regards (respect true history,historians - not politicians)

[BarkingSquirrel]

Nobody.

F*cking.

Cares.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Nobody.

F*cking.

Cares.

We know coz u are civilized. rofl We know u are in modern world who backs Armenians Massacres...We know...why do u insist on saying "We dont care"? Amazing civilization... ;)

[Kontra1]

Links below are dead..I guess they've been hacked by the ppl they bothered. Go to one at the bottom
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you heard of the Catholic Emancipation in Britain? It is preceded by a much greater degree of religious freedom in the Ottoman Empire by at least three centuries!

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/terrace/adw03/peel/emancip.htm

Catholic Emancipation Act:

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/terrace/adw03/c-eight/catheman.htm

Click here for the oath of Sultan Mehmet II (the Conqueror). (And please make note of the date!)

THE OATH (AHDNAMA) OF

SULTAN MEHMET II, THE CONQUEROR


MEHMET THE SON OF MURAT KHAN, ALWAYS VICTORIOUS!

THE COMMAND OF THE HONOURABLE, SUBLIME SULTAN’S SIGN AND SHINING SEAL OF THE CONQUEROR OF THE WORLD IS AS FOLLOWS:

I, THE SULTAN MEHMET KHAN INFORM ALL THE WORLD THAT THE ONES WHO POSSESS THIS IMPERIAL EDICT, THE BOSNIAN FRANCISCANS, HAVE GOT INTO MY GOOD GRACES, SO I COMMAND:

LET NOBODY BOTHER OR DISTURB THOSE WHO ARE MENTIONED, NOT THEIR CHURCHES. LET THEM DWELL IN PEACE IN MY EMPIRE. AND LET THOSE WHO HAVE BECOME REFUGEES BE, AND SAFE. LET THEM RETURN AND LET THEM SETTLE DOWN THEIR MONASTERIES WITHOUT FEAR IN ALL THE COUNTRIES OF MY EMPIRE. NEITHER MY ROYAL HIGHNESS, NOR MY VIZIERS OR EMPLOYEES, NOR MY SERVANTS, NOR ANY OF THE CITIZENS OF MY EMPIRE SHALL INSULT OR DISTURB THEM. LET NOBODY ATTACK, INSULT, OR ENDANGER NEITHER THEIR LIFE NOR THEIR PROPERTY NOR THE PROPERTY OF THEIR CHURCH. EVEN IF THEY BRING SOMEBODY FROM ABROAD INTO MY COUNTRY, THEY ARE ALLOWED TO DO SO.

AS THUS, HAVING GRACIOUSLY ISSUED THIS IMPERIAL EDICT, I HEREBY TAKE MY GREAT OATH.

IN THE NAME OF THE CREATOR OF THE EARTH AND HEAVEN, THE ONE WHO FEEDS ALL CREATURES AND IN THE NAME OF THE SEVEN MUSTAFAS AND OUR GREAT MESSANGER, AND IN THE NAME OF THE SWORD I PUT IT, NOBODY SHALL DO CONTRARY TO WHAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN, AS LONG AS THERE ARE OBEDIENT AND FAITHFUL TO MY COMMAND.

1463


Link:

http://www.network54.com/Realm/Non_Turkish_Crimes_Against_Humanity/index.html

BTW..there is nothing you can dig out from this site you haven't already posted.

[BarkingSquirrel]

Nobody.

F*cking.

Cares.

We know coz u are civilized. rofl We know u are in modern world who backs Armenians Massacres...We know...why do u insist on saying "We dont care"? Amazing civilization... ;)lol a turk insinuated an american is uncivilised because he spoke the truth about no one giving a **** of how many or in what way you hairy stupid f*ckers kill each other.

[Kontra1]

Nobody.

F*cking.

Cares.


You should...you might be blamed of same kind of stuff in the near future...


Kontra1

[achilles]

How entertaining is this chaotic, totally uncoordinated memet-pseudo attack that is happening here. :lol: Damn, i cant resist replying :|

Hey you piece of **** (you know who you are)...guess what, we agree:

Greece is an Unworthy EU Member

As far as i am concerned, this is a correct statement. We shouldnt have been in the EU so early for a number of reason which i am sure your zapped brain cannot possibly comprehend. So i will leave it to that.
Hey we also 'cooked' the numbers in our national accounting, have you got anything on that? :lol: Greece shouldnt have become a member so soon, but we still made it. Aint that cool? Thats why they are calling us clever Greek bastards. Comprende sweetheart? :lol:

Why dont you worry about your economy instead? Are you going to chop any more zeros from your over inflated currency or you will leave it as it is? How much was the cost of bread in Turkey before you deleted the zeros? 5 gazilion liras per baguette? woot

And a bit of bubble bursting:

The Turkish Tragedy By John Dewey
Published in The New Republic, 12 November 1928

Now this is an updated, credible coming from the 'New Republic' ladies and gentlemen. What? New Repulic? This New Republic?


Just a few months after owner Marty Peretz bounced Michael Kelly for being too tough on Bill Clinton, The New Republic finds itself with an even greater embarrassment to its reputation. Associate Editor Stephen Glass, hailed by magazine staffers as a brilliant, mercilessly accurate young journalistic ace, has been exposed as a total fraud. link (http://www.mrc.org/BozellColumns/newscolumn/1998/col19980522.asp)

You forgot to post the link on which Turkish official payed this tabloid to publish the article :lol: Dude, you beat me to it...now how am i going to get over this Turkish tragedy? :|



There Was No Genocide

Really? Says another so-called scholar who is on the Turkish government's payroll?
*yawn*

[Clearday-TRForce]

Achilles, it s well-done job,go on... ;)



Did Armenian Casualities Amount To 1.5 Million?

Armenian propagandists claim that as many as 1,5 million Armenians died as the result of so-called "genocide". Like the rest of their claims, this also is imaginary, with the number claimed being increased over years. At first, immediately following the war the Armenians claimed that as many as 600,000 had been killed. Later they raised it to 800,000 and now they talk about 1,5 million and tomorrow they may talk even about three million. The 1918 edition of Encyclopedia Britannica said that 600,000 Armenians had been killed; in its 1968 edition this was raised to 1,5 million.

How many Armenians did die? It is impossible to determine the number exactly, since no complete death records were kept during those years. The only basis on which even an estimate can be made is the actual Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire at the time. Even here figures vary widely, with the Armenians claiming far more than other sources:

Claimed Armenian Population

1.British Annual Register 1917 1.056.000 (1)
2.Patriarch Ormanyan 1.579.000 (2)
3.The Armenian historian Kevork Aslan
1,800,000 (3)
(In "Armenia and Armenians", Aslan states the Armenian population in Anatolia 920.000, in Clicia (Adana, Sis, Maras) 180.000, in the other Ottoman territories 700.000, total 1.800.000)
4.German Priest Johannes Lepsius 1.600.000 (4)
5.Cuinet 1.045.018 (5)
6.The French Yellow Book 1.475.011 (6)
7.The Armenian historian Basmajian 2.280.000 (7)
8.Patriarch Nerses Varjabedyan 1.150.000 (8)

Official Ottoman census statistics are as follows:

The Ottoman Directory of Statistics was founded in 1892. The first director of the branch was Nuri Bey. Between 1892-1897 a Jewish Ottoman, Fethi Franco was appointed for the duty. From 1897 until 1903, an Armenian director was in charge, called Migirdic Shabanyan. Later, Mr. Robert an American was appointed (1903-1908). Between, 1908-1914 Mehmet Behic was the general director. (9)

As it is seen, in a very chaotic period when the Ottoman government was facing with the Armenian Issue on the international arena, the Ottoman Statistics were under the control of foreigners. At this point, the Ottoman statistics should be considered as the most objective documents about the Armenian population living in Ottoman territories.

* Ottoman census statistics for 1893 1.001.465
* Ottoman census statistics for 1906 1.120.748
* Ottoman census statistics for 1914 1.221.850 (10)

An evaluation of the three sources clarifies that, during the First World War, the Armenian population in the Ottoman territories was approximately 1.250.000.

The Armenian population subjected to relocation was 438.758 and 382.148 of these safely reached their new destinations. (11) The number of casualties had occurred as follows: 500 people on the road between Erzurum and Erzincan; 2000 in Meskene, between Urfa and Aleppo and 2000 others on the outskirts of Mardin were massacred in attacks launched by bandits or nomadic Arabs. Another 5000 people were killed in attacks on convoys passing through Dersim. (12) It was understood from these documents that many people had also fallen victim to hunger while on the road. (13) Apart from these, some 25-30 thousand people had lost their lives when struck by fatal diseases such as typhoid and dysentery. (14) In all, an estimated 40 thousand casualties had been registered during relocation.

The remaining 10-16 thousand people were made at stay in provinces they had reached, when the implementation of relocation was brought to an end. For instance, on April 26, 1916, orders were given to provide the return to and the settlement in the province of Konya of those Armenians setting out form the province to new destinations. (15) On the other hand, many other Armenians are believed to have fled to either Russia or to Western countries, including the Unites States.

As a matter of fact, according to the pertinent documents, 50.000 of the Armenian soldiers serving in the Ottoman Army joined the Russian forces, and some other 50.000 Armenian soldiers went to America to be trained in the US Army to fight against the Turkish Army. In fact, the letter of an Armenian called Murad Muradyan- who was an advocate in Elazig later immigrated to America - shows such information. (16) In the concerned letter, Muradyan mentions that some Armenians were escaped to Russia and America and later 50.000 of those trained soldiers went to Caucassia. As it can be understood from all the concerned documents, many of Armenian subjects of the Ottoman State were scattered through various countries especially to U.S.A. and Russia, before and during the war. For example, Artin Hotomyan who was a tradesman in America sent a letter to the Chieftain of Security on January 19, 1915 and stated that thousands of Armenians migrated to U.S.A. and they were facing with hunger and hardships. (17)





FOOTNOTES

1) British Annual Record for 1917
2) Uras, Esat, Tarihte Ermeniler ve Ermeni Meselesi, Istanbul, 1987
3) Aslan, Kevork, Ermenistan ve Ermeniler, Istanbul, 1914.
4) Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
5) Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
6) 1893-1897 Ermeni Iºleri, Paris, 1897 Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
7) Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
8) Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
9) Mazici, Nursen, Belgelerle Uluslar arasi Rekabette Ermeni Sorunu, Istanbul 1987.
10) see Karpat, Kemal, H. Ottoman Population 1830-1914 Demographic and Social Characteristic, The University Of Winsconcin Press, 1985 London.
11) Some figures can be slightly change.
12) Coded telegraphs from governors of Trabzon, Erzurum, Sivas, Diyarbakir, Elazig, Bitlis Maras, Canik, June 26, 1915 (code, number. 54-A/112). Telegraphs from governors of Eregli and Musul (June, 8 1915 coded telegraph sent to Konya province, code, numberr.57/337; Zor province February 3, 1916, code, number.60/219).
13) code, number.57/110.
14) see DH. EUM. 2. branch, numberr.68/81; see. code., number. 57/51.
15) code, number. 63/119.
16) DH. EUM. 2. ªube, nr.2F/14.
17) Bkz. DH. EUM. 2. ªube, nr.2F/94.



regards (respect true history-historians,not politicians)

[achilles]

, it s well-done job,go on...

At least someone is aknowledging it :hug:

Now check this out again:
FOOTNOTES


1) British Annual Record for 1917
2) Uras, Esat, Tarihte Ermeniler ve Ermeni Meselesi, Istanbul, 1987
3) Aslan, Kevork, Ermenistan ve Ermeniler, Istanbul, 1914.
4) Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
5) Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
6) 1893-1897 Ermeni Iºleri, Paris, 1897 Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
7) Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
8) Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
9) Mazici, Nursen, Belgelerle Uluslar arasi Rekabette Ermeni Sorunu, Istanbul 1987.
10) see Karpat, Kemal, H. Ottoman Population 1830-1914 Demographic and Social Characteristic, The University Of Winsconcin Press, 1985 London.
11) Some figures can be slightly change. Spelling alert
12) Coded telegraphs from governors of Trabzon, Erzurum, Sivas, Diyarbakir, Elazig, Bitlis Maras, Canik, June 26, 1915 (code, number. 54-A/112). Telegraphs from governors of Eregli and Musul (June, 8 1915 coded telegraph sent to Konya province, code, numberr.57/337; Zor province February 3, 1916, code, number.60/219). For further details on the genocide, i will ask those guys above :lol:
13) code, number.57/110.
14) see DH. EUM. 2. branch, numberr.68/81; see. code., number. 57/51.
15) code, number. 63/119.
16) DH. EUM. 2. ªube, nr.2F/14.
17) Bkz. DH. EUM. 2. ªube, nr.2F/94.

Now this is the definition of an unbiased list of footnotes :lol:

[Clearday-TRForce]

Here s the video of truths (http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_anatolia/Buton/mediaplayer1.jpg)



DOCUMENTS SERIES (HISTORICAL)

Massacre and atrocities perpetrated by Armenians
and Russians

According to writings sent from the provinces of Diyarbekir and Trabzon Armenians bandits and Russians assaulted muslim population, raped women, crammed in houses old people and small children and then burned them, profaned and destroyed mosques and saints’ sepulchres, grilled corpses cut into pieces and then forced the survivors to eat them.

3 Ş. 1334 (5. VI. 1916)

Bâb-ı Âlî

Dâhiliye Nezâreti

Emniyyet-i Umûmiyye Müdîriyeti



Atrocities perpetrated by the Armenians and Russians
in the neigborhoods of Van

Armenians and Russians committed widespread atrocities in Van and its surroundings and according to the testimony of Firdevs living in Abbasağa quarter, the occupants murdered by torturing women, girls, aged muslims without distinction, ripping the helly of a pregnant women and extracting the young from the wombs to behead it, storming houses and killing the household after they had inflicted them tortures for hours; stripping off the clothes of a small male baby aged six and after cutting off his ****** parts they buchtered him, raping and violating muslim women and those who took refuge in an american foundation,desecrating cemeteries and exhuming buried corpses and profaning tombs of venerated persons by filling in filthes.

28 Ş. 1334 (30. VI. 1916)

Bâb-ı Âlî

Dâhiliye Nezâreti

Emniyyet-i Umûmiyye Müdîriyeti



Atrocities perpetrated by Armenians and Russians
against Muslims in Bitlis and Trabzon

During Russian occupation, Armenians and Russians with the aim of exterminating the Muslims living in the chief town of the sub-prefectures of Siirt and the sub-prefectures of Barzan, Sason and Kulp; in the plains of Muş, Malazgird, Bulanik, Hınıs, Pasinler, Eleşkird; in the mountains of Tifnik, Karaköy and Talori in the whole districts, villages and quarters of Van, Bitlis, Genç, Andak and Maçka, set about looting and massacring, setting fire to villages, cramming people in to haystrores and burning them alive; cutting off arms and legs of some children and men and then throwing them into the flames, violating girls and women, killing by knocking down with their rifles’ butts ailed sick people, trampling on living persons with their horses and putting them to swords, throwing on immigrants people shrapnels and letting them explode, seizing goods and chattels from their properties and after beating to death those refusing to give up their goods, sending them to jail and according to investigations made by officials hearing those who had escaped, mosques were converted into churches.

5 N. 1334 (6. VII. 1916)

Bâb-ı Âlî

Dâhiliye Nezâreti

Emniyyet-i Umûmiyye Müdîriyeti



Massacre Perpetrated by Armenians in the Villages of Cemil and Möküz.

Lists showing the number of persons killed and quantity of goods looted by Armenians in the village of Cemil, formerly named İslamkarakilisesi, where 66 houses had been destroyed goods pillaged, and many persons killed; in the village of Möküz after being taken as prisoners about 150 men, women and children had been killed; the names of native Armenians who participated with Armenians soldiers are also recorded in these lists also are recorded the quantity of goods and belongings seized from the Muslim population who had succeded to escape from the massacre and settled in the village of Kızılçakçak.

3 C. 1339 (12. II. 1921)

Numara: 154 Horum

12/2/[13]37



Masskillings Perpetrated By Armenians in Muslim Villages Attached to Kars and Erivan.

In the Kızılkule village attached to Erivan, Armenians slaughtered with axes especialy youths and children gouging out their eyes with heated broken bottles and then burning their corpses in cauldrons; in the village of Sabuncu one hundred and forty two persons had their mouths and noses cut and their eyes gouged out; young women and girls had been raped, parturient women (newly giving birth to young) thrown into cauldron with their new born babies and burnt forcing her husband to look on and then, he also was put to death and burnt; almost all of the Muslim population of the villages of Karagola, Tirlik, Pozbir, Taşnik, Subatan, Ani and Daynalık had been killed after they have undergone different kinds of tortures; all the cattle, valuables and moneys of the population had been seized.

1 B. 1339 (11. III. 1921)

On İkinci Fırka Kumandanlığı Karârgâh

Erkân-ı Harbiyye Birinci Şu‘be 11/Mart/[13]37

134/46



Massacres and Pillages Perpetrated by Armenians and Greeks During the Occupation of Bayburd by the Russian Army

During of the occupation of Bayburd by the Russian army and its withdrawal Armenians and Greek bandits killed without distinction, women and children and everyone they encountered on the streets and in the houses, flaying skins, raping women and ripping the abdomen of those enceintes and extracting their fetuses, forcibly gathering Muslim people under the pretext of distributing breads and then cramming them into a store and setting fire to, killing about five hundred Muslims of the township and the villages’ muslim population and breaking into houses seizing goods and cattles; in many township and villages’ mosques, masjids, schools, coranic schools, dervishes convents, hotels, public baths, shops, goverment and municipalities’ offices had also been entirely burnt up too.

24 Ra. 1340 (25. XII. 1921)

Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisi Hükûmeti

Şark Cebhesi Dokuzuncu Kolordu Kumandanlığı

Erkân-ı Harbiyyesi

Şu‘be: 1

Numara: 109




best wishes (respect true history,historians - not politicians)

[Clearday-TRForce]

, it s well-done job,go on...

At least someone is aknowledging it :hug:

Now check this out again:
FOOTNOTES


1) British Annual Record for 1917
2) Uras, Esat, Tarihte Ermeniler ve Ermeni Meselesi, Istanbul, 1987
3) Aslan, Kevork, Ermenistan ve Ermeniler, Istanbul, 1914.
4) Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
5) Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
6) 1893-1897 Ermeni Iºleri, Paris, 1897 Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
7) Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
8) Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
9) Mazici, Nursen, Belgelerle Uluslar arasi Rekabette Ermeni Sorunu, Istanbul 1987.
10) see Karpat, Kemal, H. Ottoman Population 1830-1914 Demographic and Social Characteristic, The University Of Winsconcin Press, 1985 London.
11) Some figures can be slightly change. Spelling alert
12) Coded telegraphs from governors of Trabzon, Erzurum, Sivas, Diyarbakir, Elazig, Bitlis Maras, Canik, June 26, 1915 (code, number. 54-A/112). Telegraphs from governors of Eregli and Musul (June, 8 1915 coded telegraph sent to Konya province, code, numberr.57/337; Zor province February 3, 1916, code, number.60/219). For further details on the genocide, i will ask those guys above :lol:
13) code, number.57/110.
14) see DH. EUM. 2. branch, numberr.68/81; see. code., number. 57/51.
15) code, number. 63/119.
16) DH. EUM. 2. ªube, nr.2F/14.
17) Bkz. DH. EUM. 2. ªube, nr.2F/94.

Now this is the definition of an unbiased list of footnotes :lol:



so,

these are not important for u... Achilles,actually what s important for u,really I dont know...coz u dont read anything,just posting...anyway...u suppose u will stop me.But sorry man. U will stop someone but not me.



1) British Annual Record for 1917
2) Uras, Esat, Tarihte Ermeniler ve Ermeni Meselesi, Istanbul, 1987
3) Aslan, Kevork, Ermenistan ve Ermeniler, Istanbul, 1914.
4) Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
5) Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
6) 1893-1897 Ermeni Iºleri, Paris, 1897 Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
7) Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
8) Uras, Esat, a.g.e.
9) Mazici, Nursen, Belgelerle Uluslar arasi Rekabette Ermeni Sorunu, Istanbul 1987.
10) see Karpat, Kemal, H. Ottoman Population 1830-1914 Demographic and Social Characteristic, The University Of Winsconcin Press, 1985 London.

[Clearday-TRForce]

so what about photos? I know I know they are not important for civilized people.

[Kontra1]

There Was No Genocide

Really? Says another so-called scholar who is on the Turkish government's payroll?
*yawn*


Poor ignorant bastard...


Kontra1

[achilles]

so,
these are not important for u... Achilles,actually what s important for u,really I dont know...coz u dont read anything,just posting...anyway...u suppose u will stop me.But sorry man. U will stop someone but not me.

Do i not read anything? I am even correcting spelling errors ;)

Actually it is important. Its good to show people how to conduct really bad and ineffective propaganda ;) . I am not trying to stop you, mate, i am giving my best shot so you and the piece-of-**** post more
;)

[achilles]

There Was No Genocide

Really? Says another so-called scholar who is on the Turkish government's payroll?
*yawn*


Poor ignorant bastard...


Kontra1

hi honey...i love you too :hug:

[Clearday-TRForce]

http://www.turkses.com/armenian_book/kapak.gif


God bless some people in the civilized world see the truths...And respect humanity.

[Clearday-TRForce]

http://www.turkses.com/armenian_book/kapak.gif




ARMENIA
THE GREAT DECEPTION

SECRETS OF A "CHRISTIAN"
TERRORIST STATE
BY
SAMUEL A. WEEMS


Samuel A. Weems’ new book could be titled ONE GOOD REASON THE MUSLIM WORLD HATES THE UNITED STATES. This book exposes selfish and wrong actions by the tiny state of Armenia and how they continue to use Christianity to obtain foreign aid from Christian nations and funding by Christian churches. Weems notes that foreign aid is the number one import of Armenia today and terrorism is this tiny state’s number one export.

The author of this book is a Scottish American, a life long Baptist, and a taxpayer. He has done extensive research in archives in Washington, D.C., London, England, Paris, France, Moscow, Russia and Istanbul, Turkey. The Armenian archives are located in Yerevan, Armenia and are not open to public. Also not open to public are the archives of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, a political terrorist organization located in Boston, Massachusetts. These two Armenian archives escaped scholarly research and scrutiny to this very day. The author asks "What the Armenians are trying to hide?"
(AND HAVE U SEEN NIKIRITAS,WHAT S TRUTH? U AGAIN IN LIES)

The author asks such questions as why an Armenian terrorist organization, which gained dictatorial power of Armenia in 1918 has its archives in the United States?

Why are such archives closed to the general public, when the Armenians take advantage of the tax-exempt laws of the United States?

During the research process for this book, the author discovered that the tiny state of Armenia established what it calls its "Armenian Colony" in the United States in 1918. In addition, Armenia established the Armenian National Union of America, the Armenian Press Bureau based in New York and other Armenian-based groups in America at the same time.

The sole purpose of these political action organizations was to seek out U.S. government funding and also money and contributions from Christians throughout the United States. In addition, these self-serving Armenian groups work to influence American public opinion, lobby elected officials, and oppose anything connected to Azerbaijan and Turkey. Such efforts that began during the World War I continue unabated to this very day.

Armenia "claims" to be the first Christian State on earth dating back 1700 years. The question is asked: "Is Armenia really "Christian" as tested by true Christian standards?"

What has been the role of the one and only "official" Armenian State Church in terrorist activities?

The chapter of this book titled "HOLY TERROR" is revealing, because this is the first time anyone has researched the Armenian Apostolic Church (also known as the Armenian Orthodox Church) and its leadership role in state sponsored terrorism!

The author provides clear evidence, time after time, that Armenia has, and continues to play, the Christian vs. Muslim religion/race/ethnic card with great success, regardless of truth. (WE KNOW AUTHOR,VERY MUCH THANKS,GOD BLESS UR SOUL)

For example, in 1992, with a billion dollars in Russian military aid, Armenia made a surprise-sneak attack on its neighbor Azerbaijan. Armenia quickly captured 20% of the country and drove more than one million poor Azerbaijanis from their homes. These Muslims live today in tent city squalor. Clearly, this conduct was not "love your neighbor as your self" as Christ taught.

Proof is given that the Armenian Church (the state constitution makes it the "official" church of Armenia) has been, and continues to be a leader in promoting and supporting on-going terrorist activities. The author hasn’t discovered any evidence that this so-called church speaks out in opposition to terrorist acts--even when Armenians were assassinating Turkish diplomats on a regular basis throughout the world starting in the 1970s and continued throughout the 1980s. Far from denouncing Armenian terrorism, the Armenian Church was the scene of systematic fund raising efforts designed to finance the legal defenses of the few Armenian terrorists who were caught and later convicted.

The government of the United States backed this self-called tiny Christian State by thereafter providing 1.4 billion dollars in foreign aid, courtesy of the American taxpayer, that is more foreign aid per person than to any country on earth.

At the same time, the United States Congress cut foreign aid assistance to Azerbaijan. The reason for this American government action is the result of the successful lobby work of the Armenian Colony within the United States. Armenian American lobbyists worded, handed over to some American lawmakers and eventually secured a national law that declares, on behalf of the United States government, that Azerbaijan created an "illegal blockade." All Azerbaijan did was to refuse to allow the land-locked tiny state of Armenia’s permission to use Azerbaijan’s ports to bring in military supplies to be used against the Azerbaijanis. This "self defense" was successfully misrepresented to the U.S. lawmakers as "illegal blockade".

Specific evidence is provided to prove, how the Armenian American Colonists lobbied American law-makers to punish Azerbaijan, because this nation defended itself from the "Christians", and refused to allow Armenia the privilege to transport military supplies across Azerbaijan’s soil, to then use against Azerbaijan. Wouldn’t any nation on earth do the same thing?

However, the United States government backed these "Christian" lobbyists. Author Weems asks the question: "Why did the United States join with Russia and take sides in a domestic matter against Azerbaijan?" The only answer is, it’s a "Christian" vs. "Muslim" conflict. The Christians were wrong in the days of the Crusades, just as they are wrong in getting mixed up with the Armenians today!

The author asks the question: "Isn’t this American support of joining with the Russians, to help "Christian" Armenia steal a neighbor’s land by the use of terrorism and force more than one million poor Muslims from their homes, a very good reason for the Muslim world to hate Americans?"

The sad story is that Armenia has been carrying out terrorist actions since 1918 that continue to this day. What is even sadder is the fact that the United States government and too many American Christians still support Armenians by giving money to Armenia just because of the false Armenian claim: "We are fellow Christians."

Every Christian in the United States must read this book, and do their own investigation to determine for themselves, the true story of Armenia.

The author provides, example after example, of how Armenians used terrorism as official policy, even before the founding of their Armenian Revolutionary Federation in 1890, and how a small band of dictators mislead their own people and established a dictatorial government that continues to use systematic violence to advance their causes to this day.

This book, among many revelations, will provide answers to many questions:

It uncovers the name and official position of the person who made up the tall tale that the Ottoman government massacred 1.5 million Armenians. This book also reveals the actual date the wild tall tale was first told, and who the tall tale was told to. Weems then provides the evidence as to how the tall tale was then spread throughout the Christian world that continues to this very day.
It uncovers and reveals all the details of why the Ottoman government kicked out all the Armenians who lived in the eastern part of the country in 1915. Proof is provided that the Ottoman government had good cause to remove Armenians from behind their army that was fighting the Russians. The reason was simple. Armenians were helping the invading Russians, by disrupting the Ottoman Army supply lines. Armenians, pretended to be the friends of Ottomans’ for more than 500 years, were playing friends by day and terrorists by night! Any nation on earth would have done the same thing when the nation was in danger of being destroyed!
The author has uncovered several American and British eyewitnesses who saw the Armenians leave the Ottoman lands. The question every reader will have to answer is this: "Whom do you believe? American and British officials who saw the Armenians leave the country, or the wild tall tales made up by "Armenians" who still use the ever growing tall tale as an excuse to try to get free hand-outs from throughout the Christian world?"
In this book the reader will discover that the author provides evidence, given by the Armenian historian, which proves that Armenians kept two sets of books. One to support their made up tall tale that 1.5 million of their people were massacred, and another set of books to count the same 1.5 million Armenians as refugees, so that more foreign handouts could be secured. One set of books to create pity, another to rake in the money unsuspecting Christians showered them with! The proof is that there simply cannot be 1.5 million Armenian people massacred, when the same 1.5 million Armenian people counted as refugees. One can not be dead and alive at the same time!
This book reveals, in detail, how Armenia has double-dealt friends and neighbors throughout history, with threads of continuity reaching to this very day.
This book provides the proof that Armenia committed far more terrorist acts than those Ottomans they accuse of committing.
Armenians claim that they are fighting to reclaim their "ancient homeland." This book provides the evidence to prove that the lands Armenians claim as "ancient" has only been their home for less than 200 years, and that the Russians drove out and killed millions of Muslims and gave their "ancient homelands" to the Armenians. Why did the Russians do this? Both the Russians and Armenians were the same sort of Christians while the Muslims were "different"!
This is a book that every American taxpayer must read!

President Bush is attempting to build friendships throughout the Muslim world because of the extremist Muslim attacks on New York and Washington D.C. on September 11th. American taxpayers will discover how Armenian American Colonists are opposing the President’s War on Terrorism for their own selfish interests. This book presents facts that will cause every non-Armenian Christian in the United States to raise his or her voice to protest the continuation of the federal government support and giving taxpayer’s hard earned dollars as aid to Armenia, because Armenia is fighting the President and the United States War On Terrorism!

Samuel A. Weems does not have a drop of Armenian, Azerbaijani, or Turkish blood in his veins. He is a life long Christian. He is very active in his church and has recently produced an excellent video titled "The Seven Churches of Revelation." He spent eight weeks in Turkey making this video and doing research on this book. He writes a regular newspaper column, and he has a great deal of experience in the political arena. He was elected one of one hundred delegates to rewrite his state’s constitution. He served as an elected member of his city council. He was also elected district attorney and a judge. While serving as a district attorney, he did extensive work in Washington D. C. to reform the nation’s welfare and prison systems.

Samuel A. Weems’s ability to research and go directly to the heart of a problem, thanks to his legal background, is revealed in this excellent book that will cause every non-Armenian American to become alarmed by the actions and conduct of such fellow citizens.

This author provides clear and convincing proof that Armenia is working to do things that endanger the safety and welfare of all citizens within the United States! This, in spite of the fact that U.S. citizens are keeping Armenia alive with their tax dollars!

ARMENIA—THE GREAT DECEPTION—SECRETS OF A "CHRISTIAN" STATE is a must read for every American who seeks the truth and wants to know how their tax dollars and missionary church money is spent!



regards (respect true historians-history,not politicians)

[Kontra1]

HOCALI GENOCIDE SHOULD BE RECOGNIZED


http://www.diplomaticobserver.com/news_read.asp?id=1167


Kontra1

[Corvus]

So let's sum things up:

* The Turks never carried out the Genocide of Armenians

* Armenians, Greeks and Russians killed millions of Turks

* Armenia isn't really "Christian", it's all just a facade to keep getting money to continue being a terrorist state

* Land that is considered historically Armenian is really just Muslim land that was given to Armenians after Russians killed everyone previously living there

oh and the best parts

* The Muslim world hates America because of it's support of Armenia, which happens to be the enemy of Azerbaijan and Turkey (even though most other Muslims don't get along well with either of these countries either)

* We should believe brainwashed, propaganda-spewing Turks and some guy who "researched" (in 8 weeks, and in Turkey of all places) hundreds of years of Anatolian history.




You know, it's actually quite funny, if this guy wrote such things about Turkey, on of you crazed, rabid pricks would probably be-head him.

w00t!

[Corvus]

Armenians were helping the invading Russians, by disrupting the Ottoman Army supply lines. Armenians, pretended to be the friends of Ottomans’ for more than 500 years, were playing friends by day and terrorists by night! Any nation on earth would have done the same thing when the nation was in danger of being destroyed!

I believe there was this Austrian man saying similar things about the Jews around 60 years ago.

[Clearday-TRForce]

http://www.turkses.com/armenian_book/kapak.gif



ARMENIA
The Great Deception Secrets of a "Christian"
Terrorist State
By
Samuel A. WEEMS

Introduction

Where did the Armenians come from? One doesn't have to look back very far into history to find the answer.

The beginnings of what can be called modern-day Armenia is filled with blood—Muslim blood. In 1820, czarist Russia be*gan the first of several attempts to expand its empire westward in an attempt to obtain an age-old dream of warm-water ports. The czars began a conquest to obtain Ottoman Empire lands all the way to the Mediterranean and open seas.

Before the Russian armies began their campaigns of con*quest, the czar's agents were sent into Ottoman lands to organize Christians in an effort to undermine the Ottoman Muslims from within. The Russians reasoned that because they were Ortho*dox Christians, they would have much in common with other Orthodox Christians, such as the Greeks, the Slavs in the Balkans, and the Armenians.

The Russians were not able to secure a warm-water port, but they did move their boundaries westward. In the years that followed 1820, the Russians promised the Armenians they would help them establish their own state. At that time, the Ottoman Empire was in a final period of decline and decay. Other foreign powers saw this as an opportunity to establish their presence in this part of the world. Both England and France sponsored mis*sionary activities there. All too frequently throughout history, nations have used Christianity to promote the state's best inter*est and the religious people sent into different parts of the world worked for both Christ and the state's best interests. This would | be the case within the Ottoman Empire.

Russia, trying not to be outdone by the English and French, j sought to gain Armenian support in destroying the Ottoman government. The Russians promised to create a "Greater Arme- j nia" in eastern Anatolia. The Russian promise was substantially more lands between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean than the Armenian people had ever occupied at anytime in their his*tory. In fact, there had never been a truly independent Armenia. There had never been a true "Greater Armenia." Perhaps three thousand years ago there was a tiny kingdom but it did not last long.

This "dream" of a "Greater Armenia" that the Russians cre*ated in the minds of a few Armenians in the mid-1800s continues to this day. The Armenians took this Russian promise (that Rus*sians had no intention of keeping) and expanded upon it. Today, Armenians claim all this land between the Black and Mediterra*nean seas as their "historic homeland." Nothing could be farther from the truth.

The English fanned the flame by calling the Asia Minor of the Bible Armenia. It was Prime Minister William E. Gladstone, in the early 1880s, who concocted the idea that it was in the British's best interests to break up the Ottoman Empire. He wanted to create a number of small friendly states under England's influence in place of the large Ottoman Empire. One such small state would be called Armenia. Gladstone asked the British press to refer to eastern Anatolia as "Armenia." British consulates were opened throughout the region, and their pur*pose was to make contact with the local Christian population. An Anglo-Armenian Friendship Committee was organized in London with the express purpose of influencing public opinion. Many more Christian missionaries were sent into what England had started calling "Armenia."

In 1877 and 1878 there was another war between the Otto*man Empire and Russia. As the war neared its end, the Christian Armenian patriarch of Istanbul, Nerses Varjabedyan, asked the ;



Russian czar to retain the lands his troops occupied in east Anatolia. Once the war ended the patriarch asked Grand Duke Nicholas, the Russian military commander, to annex all eastern Anatolia into Russia and to help establish an autonomous Ar*menian state, much like what was being established for Bulgaria. Of course this didn't happen as it was not in the Russians' best interest. In Bulgaria, there was a majority Christian population. In Ottoman Anatolia, Armenians amounted to less than a quar*ter of the population.

The British feared such Russian influence with the Arme*nians. They concluded that Russia would be a greater threat than the Ottomans. They realized a Russian-dominated "Greater Armenia" would open up the Persian Gulf and the Indian Ocean where the British possessions in India could be threatened.

Greater Armenia did not come into being as the Armenians wanted. However, the Armenian officers in the Russian army continued working to stir discontent among the Ottoman Ar*menians by suggesting they work by themselves to secure the same sort of independence as that secured by the Christians in the Balkans.

It must be noted that in the 1800s, Armenians were scat*tered within and beyond a region that today marks Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Iran, and eastern Turkey. Everywhere, ex*cept in a few small pockets, Armenians were a small minority population. As the Russians acquired lands south of the Caucasus Mountains, they removed the Muslim populations that came under their control. The Muslims were replaced with Christians whom the Russians thought would be loyal to the Russian Chris*tian government. Christian Armenians were the focal point of this policy and were given lands the Russians obtained without paying any compensation. Armenians were moved in once the Russians had removed the Muslim owners.

A large number of Armenians resented being under Muslim 1'ule and they were drawn to the Russians by the offer of free land and becoming a part of a Christian state.

In the Erivan Province, which is the heart of modern-day Armenia, the majority of the population were Muslim before they were removed. The Russians replaced them with Arme*nians. This is how Armenia acquired what it today calls its "historic homeland," not as direct descendants from the biblical Noah, as many Armenians claim, but by Russians between the years 1827 and 1878.

In each of these Ottoman wars the Armenians helped the Russians. This was the beginning of the ethnic hatred between Christian Armenians and Muslim Ottomans. This conflict was caused by the Russians and their success in pushing the hot button of human greed by giving Armenians free Muslim lands.

During the Russian-forced Muslim removal, it was not un*common for up to one-third of the Muslims who were forced off their property to die. Today, the Armenians never admit they obtained their free land on the account of widespread deaths of Muslims.

The Russians forcibly removed some 1.3 million Muslims between 1827 and 1878. Russia started wars with the Otto*mans in 1828, 1854, and 1877. Each time the Russians would advance, then be forced to retreat. When the Russians retreated, the Armenians, fearing Muslim retaliation for the violence they had done to the non-Christians, would flee with the Russians. Hatred grew on both sides.

In the 1890s there were Armenian rebellions in eastern Anatolia. The end result was many Muslims and Christians were killed. The same thing happened again during the Russian Revo*lution in 1905 in Azerbaijan.

A civil war broke out again between Christians and Muslims when World War I began. Armenian revolutionaries, many trained in Russia, attempted to take major Ottoman cities in eastern Anatolia. They did manage to capture the unarmed city of Van and hold it until the Russians arrived. The Armenians killed all but a few Muslim civilians in the city and nearby villages. Such killings by both sides went on until 1920, two years after the war officially ended. Many of the Muslim Ottoman Turks and Armenian Christians died from starvation and disease.

There will be many examples of proof presented by Euro*pean officials of "official" Armenian terrorism tactics used in eastern Anatolia. There are many western diplomatic and con*sular representatives For centuries Christians have been told stories about the ter*rible Turk and the evils of Islam[/color]. These tales date back to the Crusades when the "purity" of Christianity opposed the black Muslims. The horrible truth is men, acting in the name of Christ, were more brutal and committed more terrible acts during this time than did the Muslims. The Muslims were simply defending their lands, which were invaded by a horde of profit-seeking men in the name of Jesus.

States in the Balkans and Caucasus regions of the world are made up of fairly homogenous populations as a result of ethnic cleansing. These states were created out of what was once a part of the Ottoman Empire as a result of wars and revolutions. In simple terms, these new states were built on a foundation of Muslim suffering.

There is no historical mention in textbooks of this colossal Muslim loss. These textbooks tell the stories of massacres by Muslims of Christian Armenians, Christian Bulgarians, and Chris*tian Greeks. But there are no written accounts in Western textbooks of Muslim losses and massacres committed by Chris*tian peoples. [i](no suprized)

In the United States, the Christian Armenian-American people have mounted campaigns in recent years to get cities, states, and the national government to condemn Muslim Turkey for committing what the Armenian claim is a genocide in 1915 of some 1.5 million of Christian Armenians. If such a story is made up by Armenian-American Christians to support Arme*nian agendas, other Christians must oppose them. Christians must reach out to the Muslim world and stop giving American dollars to Armenia if the war on terrorism is to ever end.


regards (respect true historians,history - not politicians)

[Clearday-TRForce]

Armenians were helping the invading Russians, by disrupting the Ottoman Army supply lines. Armenians, pretended to be the friends of Ottomans’ for more than 500 years, were playing friends by day and terrorists by night! Any nation on earth would have done the same thing when the nation was in danger of being destroyed!

I believe there was this Austrian man saying similar things about the Jews around 60 years ago.


I believe there was this CIVILIZED saying similar things about TURKS. Refresh ur mind man,u back what? u back ur Christs brothers who takes ur taxes...Who make u fool...

and have u got any evidence why ARMENIANS dont open their archieves to PUBLIC?All Ottomans open...Why? What the hell are they hiding from WORLD?[/b]

[Clearday-TRForce]

TABLE OF CONTENTS

PREFACE ix

INTRODUCTION l

CHAPTER ONE
Holy Terror 7

CHAPTER TWO
The Beginnings 47

CHAPTER THREE
Armenia Founded as a Dictatorship 87

CHAPTER FOUR
The Armenian Numbers Game and
Their Use of Two Sets of Books 99

CHAPTER FIVE
Armenia Loses Unprovoked War on Georgia 107

CHAPTER SIX
American Admiral Sees Armenians’
Claims as “Absolutely False” 125

CHAPTER SEVEN
What Kind of Christians Are the Armenians
Who Claim to Be the First Christian State? 137

CHAPTER EIGHT
The Corrupt Armenian State—
Their People Pay a Terrible Price 153

CHAPTER NINE
Bloodthirsty Armenian Bandits 167

CHAPTER TEN
What Can Be Expected From Armenia 181

CHAPTER ELEYEN
Armenian Cruelty 189

CHAPTER TWELVE
Armenian Leaders Establish Worldwide
Political Organization to Support Campaigns
of Violence and Terror 207

CHAPTER THIRTEEN
Paid Armenian Agents Mold Public
Opinion in the United States 219

CHAPTER FOURTEEN
The Armenians Were a Dangerous
People to Get Mixed Up With 243

CHAPTER FIFTEEN
Armenians Establish American Colony 253

CHAPTER SIXTEEN
Armenians Lose Sneak Attack on Azerbaijan 273

CHAPTER SEVENTEEN
American High Commissioner for Relief States
“Armenians Are Professional Beggars” 285

CHAPTER EIGHTEEN
U .S. Senate Says “No” to Armenians 299

CHAPTER NINETEEN
Armenia Voluntarily joins the Soviet Union 331

CHAPTER TWENTY
Armenians Join Hitler’s Nazi Cause 341

CHAPTER TWENTY-ONE
Armenia in Today’s World 353

ENDNOTES 375

INDEX 383

[Kontra1]

Armenians were helping the invading Russians, by disrupting the Ottoman Army supply lines. Armenians, pretended to be the friends of Ottomans’ for more than 500 years, were playing friends by day and terrorists by night! Any nation on earth would have done the same thing when the nation was in danger of being destroyed!

I believe there was this Austrian man saying similar things about the Jews around 60 years ago.

BS!!! Jews never betrade the countries they lived in...we trust our Jewish community in Turkey more than some Turks trying to sell out the country.

Kontra1

[achilles]

Armenians were helping the invading Russians, by disrupting the Ottoman Army supply lines. Armenians, pretended to be the friends of Ottomans’ for more than 500 years, were playing friends by day and terrorists by night! Any nation on earth would have done the same thing when the nation was in danger of being destroyed!

I believe there was this Austrian man saying similar things about the Jews around 60 years ago.


I believe there was this CIVILIZED saying similar things about TURKS. Refresh ur mind man,u back what? u back ur Christs brothers who takes ur taxes...Who make u fool...

and have u got any evidence why ARMENIANS dont open their archieves to PUBLIC?All Ottomans open...Why? What the hell are they hiding from WORLD?[/b]

This is the 3rd or 4th time that i will repeat it: Nikitaras has consolidated that the Armenian archives were open throughout the whole investigation.Anyone can scroll back. ;)
Is your engine running on crude oil or something, Clearday? Dont make a retard out of yourself.

And i am curious about this :lol: :
How can someone who is minimally sane and knows what he is talking about, post something like this when referring to the US:

We know coz u are civilized. We know u are in modern world who backs Armenians Massacres...We know...why do u insist on saying "We dont care"? Amazing civilization rofl

And then be so proud that the civilization he is so sarcastic about will upgrade their F-16s? (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=45656)

Retards. Thats guaranteed :lol:

[Clearday-TRForce]

About the Author


Samuel A. Weems is a former district attorney and judge from Hazen, Arkansas. He has a jurisprudence doctorate degree from the University of Arkansas School of Law. In addition to serving on his city council, Weems was elected one of the one hundred delegates to rewrite the Arkansas Constitution. The author of many articles and a regular newspaper column, Weems has traveled extensively. Research for this book alone took him to London, Paris, Rome, Moscow, Istanbul, and Washington D.C.
Armenia—Secrets of a "Christian " Terrorist State is Volume 1 of The Armenian Great Deception Series.

Armenia—Secrets of a "Christian" Terrorist State

Since the turn of the twentieth century, Armenians have run numerous campaigns to fleece Christians of the United States and the world of billions of dollars. Because there are so few Muslims in the United States, Armenian-American lobbyists have free rein here. No one has checked to determine if Armenia is a true Christian state, as it claims. This book explores the efforts of the Armenians to establish what they claim is an independent and free state. It will also examine the merits of the Armenian claim that they are Christian. Are they really?

The long list of deception, fraud, abuses, massacres, and terrorist acts Armenians have committed are documented in this book. These are Armenian secrets they don't want the Christians of the world to know about, but they are revealed here via Armenian sources.

Every Christian and public official must read this book before agreeing to either give money or vote for meaningless resolutions against other countries based on invented Armenian tales.

There was no "genocide" against Armenia by Turkey as the Armenians claim. They simply made up this tall tale to obtain sympathy and aid from Christian nations.

Direct evidence is provided throughout the book that Armenian attacks on other countries are official state policy. There have been Armenian terrorist attacks and murders within nations all over the world in recent years. The undeniable truth is based on Armenian sources the author has documented. The evidence is clear that Armenia has created a fake "genocide industry" for the sole purpose of obtaining massive foreign aid.

Once the reader determines the truth, it will be for that individual to determine what additional action he or she should do to right a great wrong done to the Muslim world in the name of Jesus Christ.



regards (Thanks Samuel A. Weems,God bless ur soul)

[Kontra1]

The English fanned the flame by calling the Asia Minor of the Bible Armenia. It was Prime Minister William E. Gladstone, in the early 1880s, who concocted the idea that it was in the British's best interests to break up the Ottoman Empire. He wanted to create a number of small friendly states under England's influence in place of the large Ottoman Empire. One such small state would be called Armenia. Gladstone asked the British press to refer to eastern Anatolia as "Armenia."

This plan is still very much alive....TODAY!!! but this time kurds are the ones being used. Looks like "History is repeating" itself.

Guess who is fanning the flame now???

http://img14.imgspot.com/u/05/109/21/apoRumPasaport.jpg

http://img14.imgspot.com/u/05/109/19/yunanpkk1.jpg

http://img14.imgspot.com/u/05/109/22/Apoveyunanparlementer3.gif


Kontra1

[Clearday-TRForce]

Every American will forever remember where they were on the morning of September 11, 2001—the date Muslim extremists attacked New York City and Washington, D.C. Americans will also remember watching the celebrations in some parts of the Muslim world in the Middle East.

Many Americans are asking the question, "Why do Muslims hate the United States?" Unfortunately, the Muslim world has good cause to not like Americans and this book documents one very good reason this is true. This book could well be titled One Good Reason Why Muslims Hate Americans.

Of course, not all Muslims hate the United States. I was in Istanbul, Turkey, on September 11 producing a video titled The Seven Churches of Revelation and doing research on this book. (Many Americans do not know that Asia Minor of the Bible is today's Turkey. Many Christians are not aware that Turkey is the second most important country in the world to historical Christianity.) Turkey is unique in that almost 97 percent of its population is Muslim. Turkey is also the only democratic Muslim nation in the world.

This modern-day Near East democratic country was founded in 1923 because of the genius of one man: Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (1881-1938). He instituted extensive reforms and was truly one of the great world statesmen of the twentieth century. He threw the sultans out of the country and removed the Muslim religious leaders from their powerful positions in government. A new constitution was adopted that separated religion from government. Education was mandated for everyone. Women were given the right to vote and work in any profession. Muslim traditional dress for women was no longer required. Ataturk's long list of reforms and improvements go on and on.

It was because of the vision of Ataturk in 1923 that I enjoyed total freedom of movement, speech, and religion in Turkey in August and September 2001. Ataturk believed Turkey must turn to the West if the nation was to grow and prosper. Turkey continues today in the Ataturk tradition. It is the reason this Muslim nation is such a close friend and strong ally of the United States, more so than any other Muslim nation.

Within thirty minutes of the third plane hitting its target in Washington, D.C., the prime minister of Turkey was on national television telling citizens he had placed the military on the highest alert. He also said he had called the president of the United States to say if America went to war, his country was ready to go to war also because Turkey and the United States are friends, allies, and partners.

This is remarkable when one realizes the Muslim nations of Iran, Iraq, and Syria are next-door neighbors. Also in the neighborhood are Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Sudan, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Pakistan, Azerbaijan, and Afghanistan.

I wish every American could have been with me to experience the reaction of the Turks to the cowardly attack on the United States. Taxi drivers, waiters, waitresses, employees in the small shops and large stores, government employees—all, without exception, voiced genuine sorrow and support for their government's willingness to send their young men to fight the war on terrorism with the United States.

Turks, even though 97 percent Muslim, do not share the views of other Muslims who hate the United States. Consequently, it is a tragedy that a small group of Armenian-Americans is waging a campaign of hate toward Turkey within the United States today. This tiny band of people has caused some thirty state legislatures to pass meaningless resolutions attacking Turkey for an alleged genocide of 1915—eight years before Turkey became (\ nation.

I have uncovered facts that prove Armenian-Americans are spreading tall tales claiming a massacre and genocide in an effort to get mega-dollars out of both the Turks and American Christians to benefit their 150-year-old "ancient" homeland. The question for my fellow Americans to answer is simply this: Whom do you believe—other Americans who saw the Armenians, very much alive, leaving the Ottoman Empire? Or Armenians who merely claim 1.5 million of their people were murdered by the Ottoman government?

This book is based on historical evidence, much of it from Armenian sources. American Christians are invited to search the total record for themselves to determine who is telling truth and who is making up and spreading tall tales for their own selfish reasons.

In 1992, Armenia captured 20 percent of the lands of Muslim Azerbaijan through a surprise, unprovoked attack. The Armenians thrust more than a million Muslims from their homes without compensation, forcing them now to live in squalor in tent city refugee camps. The Russians gave Armenia more than a billion dollars worth of military arms and supplies. According to a U.S. Congressional Study Report, over the past ten years, the United States has given Armenia 1.4 billion dollars in foreign aid while discriminating against Muslim Azerbaijan by cutting foreign aid to it. This is one reason many Muslims hate Americans.

When the Azerbaijani government recovered from the attack, the country began to defend itself from the Armenian terrorists. Congress reacted by punishing Azerbaijan. The Armenian lobby within the United States lobbied Congress to pass laws to cut off many kinds of aid to Azerbaijan because the Azerbaijanis had established a blockade to prevent military sup-plies from reaching Armenia. In 1992, Congress passed the Freedom Support Act and Section 907, which restricts certain types of foreign aid to Azerbaijan until it has lifted its "illegal" blockade of Armenia.

Does the United States have the right to determine how one nation defends itself against another? What if another nation had passed such legislation against the United States after Japan attacked us on December 7, 1941. Why, then, is the United States punishing Azerbaijan? Why is the United States denying a country its sacred right to defend its land and people? Why is the United States taking the side of aggressor and ethnic cleanser? Didn't we punish an aggressor—Saddam Hussein—by bombing Iraq? Didn't we punish an ethnic cleanser—Slobodan Milosevic—by bombing Yugoslavia? Why are we now rewarding some others who perpetrated both aggression and ethnic cleansing?

Perhaps Congress passed such a law because the Armenians claim to be the first Christian nation on earth and Azerbaijan is a Muslim country. Is it any wonder gasoline prices have steadily increased during this same period of time because the Middle Eastern countries we obtain oil from are also Muslim? Clearly, these Islamic countries have no reason to cut the United States any slack when America joined with Russia to help Armenia attack its neighbor. This American attitude of helping so-called Christians against Muslims, even when the so-called Christians are terribly wrong and do evil deeds, is a major reason many Middle Eastern Muslims hate Americans.

Consider just how and why the United States discriminated against Muslim Azerbaijan. In 1992, the small but vocal Armenian-American lobby talked the U.S. Congress into passing a law to cut aid to Azerbaijan. Why? Because the Armenians claim Azerbaijan refused to allow Armenia to continue to use its ports to receive military supplies and to allow Armenia permission to transport those supplies over Azerbaijan territory. Armenian-Americans influenced Congress to call the Azerbaijan act of self-defense an "illegal embargo."

Now, after September 11, President George W. Bush is attempting to reach out and secure support of Muslim nations—including Azerbaijan—to help in the U.S. war on terrorism. One reason this small state is important to America's war effort is because of how near it is geographically to Afghanistan. The president has asked Congress to repeal the 1992 law cutting off foreign aid to Azerbaijan. As a result of this, Armenian-Americans launched a nationwide campaign to oppose President Bush's effort to get the support of this important Muslim country. Armenian-Americans claim it might harm Armenia. Apparently, this is more important than the national interests of the United States.

At the same time Armenian-Americans are fighting President Bush, they are also working to get an Armenian terrorist out of a California prison. This Armenian terrorist assassinated a Turkish diplomat in 1982. The terrorist was caught, charged, tried, found guilt by a California jury, and sentenced to life in prison without parole. Armenian-Americans want this convicted assassin back on the streets of the United States.

It is especially important after what occurred on September 11 that we, as a nation, establish as many close friendships within the Muslim world as we can. It does not make sense to continue to support a terrorist state, like Armenia, even if it claims to be Christian.

It isn't right for Congress to react to the political pressure of a small but loud group calling themselves Armenians. It is long past time to examine the Armenian record. This tiny state's chief export since 1918 has been terrorism and the chief import has been foreign aid from Christians around the world.

Because there are so few Muslims in the United States, Armenian-American lobbyists have free rein here. No one has checked to determine if Armenia is a true Christian state, as it claims. This book will explore the efforts and activities of the Armenians to establish what they claim is an independent and free state. This book will also examine the merits of the Armenian claim they are Christian. Are they really?

The facts that will be proved in this book are as follows:

In 1890, a tiny gang of Armenians began a terrorist revolutionary movement within the Ottoman Empire to obtain the lands and property of Muslims free of charge by conquest. These Armenians claimed their ancestors possessed these lands some three thousand years ago. However, Armenian Christians had lived in peace with Ottoman Muslims for more than five hundred years before their terrorist campaign began in 1890. They had lived under Roman rule for perhaps a thousand years before that.

Until 1914 and 1915, this band of troublemakers within the Ottoman Empire was so small the Ottomans ignored them. Then Russia invaded the Ottoman Empire and these Armenians flocked to join them, believing the Russian czar would give them the Ottoman lands they coveted and schemed to obtain. The czar had no intention of doing such a thing.

Turkish Armenians pretended to be friendly neighbors of the Ottomans by day but began destructive terrorist attacks behind Ottoman military lines by night. These terrorist attacks on Ottoman soil hurt the Ottoman troops, hindering their ability to fight the Russians. The Ottoman government was forced to remove all Armenians from behind the battle zones because they could not determine which Armenians were terrorists and which were not. This is much the same thing nations have done to protect themselves from what they perceived as disloyal people for thousands of years.

A recent example of this is the U.S. government's removal of Japanese-Americans from the West Coast to internment camps inland after Japan attacked the United States on December 7, 1941. On February 19,1942, President Franklin Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9006, an exclusion order that gave the military permission to remove Japanese-Americans from military areas. This order permitted West Coast authorities—sensitive not only to the prospect of Japanese attacks but also to the possibility of spies collecting information for the enemy—to forcibly move Japanese-Americans to internment camps farther inland. Of course, Japanese-Americans did not establish armies behind American lines or join up with advancing Japanese armies. It was simply the fear of such a possibility that caused the U.S. government to incarcerate them.

What the Ottomans did in 1915 was no different. However, in this situation, Armenians did establish terrorism behind Ottoman lines, did join up with advancing enemy armies (Russian and French), and did try to ethnically cleanse Muslims, mostly Turks, from areas the Armenians planned to carve out of the Ottoman Empire for themselves.

The sad story is what the Armenians did thereafter to deceive Christians of America and the world. The Armenian leaders sent paid agents throughout the Christian world to tell untrue stories about how hundreds of thousands of their Christians had been massacred by the terrible Turk Muslims.

The truth is that American eyewitnesses accounted for the Armenians who were removed from the combat areas as they left the Ottoman lands. Armenian spin doctors today have increased the numbers they claim to have been massacred from a few hundred thousand to 1.5 million. Armenians saw how the world responded to what the Nazis did to the Jews during World War II. Then, more than forty-three years after the event, Armenians cried out the Turks committed a terrible "genocide" in 1915. Modern-day Turkey didn't even become a nation until 1923—eight years after the Ottomans kicked the Armenians out of their country for being terrorists and disloyal.

The so-called Armenian state would have been nothing more than a single footnote in history had the Ottomans not joined forces with Germany during World War I—and lost. During this Great War, the United States did not even declare war on the Ottoman Empire. For some odd reason, the Armenians then, as now, lake the position the Americans and other Allied nations owe them Muslim lands. Not only that, but the Armenians also believe the Allies owe them their troops and money to protect and help occupy and retain Muslim lands from sea to sea. There is little or no proof Armenians contributed much of anything to winning the war.

After the war ended, a tiny gang of dictators took control of some landlocked mountain lands in Russia and proclaimed themselves the Republic of Armenia. One of the first things this new state of Armenia did was launch a sneak attack on its Christian neighbor Georgia in an unprovoked attempt to obtain land. The Armenian terrorist dictators lost.

Shortly thereafter, the Armenian leaders attempted another surprise attack, this time on Muslim Azerbaijan. Again, the Armenian terrorist dictators lost.

The Armenians begged for arms and ammunition from the Allies to protect themselves. During this time Armenian-paid agents were trying to get any Allied country to send troops to help the Armenians gobble up the Muslim lands they coveted and schemed to obtain for free.

Meanwhile, the Armenian leaders were plotting another attack on the Turks. This time the Turks beat the Armenians to the punch, attacked first, and reclaimed their own "historic homelands" the Ottomans had possessed for some eight hundred years. During the time the Armenian leaders were making secret plans to attack the Turks, they were also making covert deals with the Russians. Armenia became a part of the Soviet Union without ever firing a shot in self-defense. In 1988, Armenia claimed to have become an independent state but continued to maintain close ties to Russia as evidenced by Armenia's request that Russia build military bases within their tiny state. Russian troops are stationed at these bases, Russian MIG fighter jets are based in the country, and there are many surface-to-air missile batteries there today because Armenia asked for them.

Why should Congress give billions of dollars to such people when they are in the Russians' pocket? Why not just let the Russians take care of their own people?

Christians throughout the world must stop taking the word of Armenians at face value and examine the truth for themselves. This Christian, in making an independent examination, has discovered the truth cannot be found on Armenian web sites or in books and articles written by Armenians. Most Muslims have been forced out of the country. Now Armenia is one of the most closed Christian societies on earth. It has just one "official" church, which is a part of the state and given authority by the Armenian constitution. There is no such thing as the separation of church and state in this tiny land.

Contrast this fact with the Turks, whom the Armenians love to hate. It is interesting to note that there are more Armenian Churches in Turkey than there are in Armenia and contrary to most other data they make available on the web, that one is absolutely correct. I have recently been to Turkey. I witnessed with my own eyes that Turks and Armenians live and worship together in great freedom, harmony, and friendship. This is quite a contrast with the Armenian-Americans' ugly misrepresentations and evil efforts to plant the seeds of hatred and rage, here in the United States, against Turks. Just what kind of Christianity do these Armenian-Americans practice?

Why, for example, does the Armenian Church continue to use animal blood sacrifices? Why does the Armenian Church not believe in the total forgiveness of sins as taught by Christ? Why have Armenian Christian leaders called out publicly for the blessing of mythical gods?

The long list of deception, fraud, abuses, massacres, and terrorist acts Armenians have committed are documented in this book. These are Armenian secrets they don't want the Christians of the world to know about, but they are revealed and documented in Armenian sources. These reports are factual reports by Armenians themselves.

Every Christian and every public official should read this book before agreeing to either give money or vote for meaningless resolutions attacking modern-day Turkey, solely based on the Armenian tall tales that were invented by them, in order to get lots of free stuff from the Christian world. There was no "genocide" as they claim.

Direct evidence will be provided, several times, from Armenian sources that the Armenia's government directed terrorist attacks as official state policy. There have been Armenian terrorist attacks and murders within nations all over the world in recent years.

I am not Azerbaijani, Georgian, Turk; I am not Armenian. I am a Scottish-American, whose first Scottish ancestor came to America in 1686. I am a Southerner, a lifelong Baptist, and an American taxpayer. I have written this book under the light of extensive research in locations such as Washington, D.C., Rome, Paris, London, Moscow, and Istanbul. It would have been helpful to research in Armenia but their archives are not open to the public.

The archives in Istanbul, Turkey, are very much open, however, and have been for some time. The irony is that the files in Armenia's capital of Erevan and Armenian Revolutionary Federation offices in Boston are still closed to researchers and the public. What are they hiding? Why does Armenia have an Armenian Revolutionary Federation office in the United States?

The pages to follow are based on the pen of the chief historian of the self-called Republic of Armenia. The historians' own words and the sources he sited prove, beyond a shadow of doubt, that his beloved Armenia is a bogus rogue state. The observations revealed in the pages to follow are written by a neutral seeker of fact and truth behind events that date from 1890 and continue to the present day.

Because I am not a professional historian I may have made technical mistakes in preparing this book. I accept responsibility for such errors. However, the facts that are presented in the text of the book speak directly and honestly for themselves.

There have been prominent Americans, dating back to 1919, who have spoken out about Armenian corruption to deceive the Christian world into giving them vast amounts of unregulated money. The Armenian response to any American citizen who spoke out or objected has been, and continues to be, the same: They always launch character or physical attacks on any such person.

Hubert Hoover directed the U.S. effort to help rebuild Europe after World War I. He experienced only one failure and that was the dictator-run state of Armenia. This future American president stated that Armenian corruption "would be the greatest scandal in American charitable history. "The Armenians responded by attacking his character.
Readers of this book will discover from the words of today's Armenians that this attitude of ingratitude continues. The proof will be that the Armenian attitude is that American citizens owe their tax dollars to Armenia.

There are several U.S. citizens who have researched Armenia and published their findings. Each of them has been subjected to Armenian campaigns of terror. Consider but a few such individuals:

• Professor Stanford Shaw of UCLA. Armenians bombed his
home and terrorized him in several different ways.
• Professor Heath Lowry of Princeton University was recently
forced out as chairman of a Near Eastern studies program
because of a two-year hate and smear campaign directed
against him.
• Professor Justin McCarthy of the University of Louisville
has been subjected to all manner of character attacks and
attempts to have him removed from his teaching position.
• Film maker Robin Williams recently produced a documen
tary film titled The Biblical Treasures of Turkey, Several times
when he attempted to show his film, young Armenians
disrupted the showings. On one occasion Armenian youth
invaded the theater by throwing stink bombs and forcing
the evacuation of the audience.

Once the announcement was made that this book was to be published I experienced a vicious attack directed by the Armenian Assembly of America. This is a large mega million-dollar special interest lobby based in Washington, D.C. It has forty or fifty professional employees. The sole purpose of this special interest Armenian lobby organization is to obtain as much American taxpayer dollars as they can for Armenia. This amounts to almost 1,5 billion dollars over the past ten years. In addition, the Armenian Assembly of America also works to oppose anything relating to Turkey or the other Muslim nations of the Near East. Because of the hate campaign directed toward me by the Armenian Assembly of America more than a thousand messages have poured in attacking me personally. Of this number, there are twenty-three death threats. Consider the "character" of the Armenians who wrote the following messages to me about a book not one of them could have read yet. (I received these threats before the book was even published.)
· "The St. John Press book is full of lies, lies, and lies. Who paid Weems to write it? It's so typical of Turkish revisionism. Are you sure you want to be supporting a website that's so blatantly deceptive?"
· "Having read the book of Mr. Samuel A. Weems, I pro
claim that all the facts that the author is talking about are DEFINITELY FALSE,"
· "You stupid f—ing ignorant savages!! How can you really
believe what you are publishing and distributing?"

Consider the following examples of threats upon my life. I take such threats seriously because in recent years Armenians have murdered some seventy people around the world, four here in the United States.

• "I just wanted to tell you that you will burn in hell for putting down the first Christian nation. I will make sure to show up to your funeral, hopefully soon, and piss on your pathetic corpse."
• "I will never ever ever forget my revenge so get ready for it. There are 1 OOOOOOOOOOOOOs like me alllll over the world. Keep smiling."
• "U deserve to die a beast. Some Armenian is gonna kill u some day. And ur not gonna like the Armenian wrath!!!!!!!!"
• "I want to mention that your book about Armenia is stu-pid as you, because to write such a book against Armenia which is country in the world to accept Christian first, Iwant to inform you, as you know we are separated all overthe world and if I can find you I'll kill you."

I personally responded to a handful of the messages I received in order to ask questions of Armenians. I was curious about how they think. One question I asked was whether Armenians approve of all the death threats I was receiving. Here is a typical answer: "It seems that you are generalizing that Armenians are terrorists from the death threats you have received. Since when does protecting your culture make a whole nation a terrorist state?"

The prevailing Armenian attitude is that it is permissible to make death threats upon anyone with whom you disagree as a matter of "Armenian" culture. This is an unacceptable attitude within a civilized world.

I asked Armenians the question why their state made a sneak attack on their neighbor Muslim Azerbaijan in 1992. The Armenians captured 20 percent of the country and forced more than 1 million poor souls to flee their homes and live in horrible tent city refugee conditions. Here is a typical answer of why Christian Armenia made the sneak attack on Muslim Azerbaijan: Don't you tell me that the Armenians fighting with the Azeris makes Armenians less Christian. Look back in history and you will find that a Holy War took place."

The facts are the Armenians received more than 1 billion dollars in military hardware from the Russians to wage what this Armenian calls a "Holy War." Christian Russia and Christian America supports Armenia in its "Holy War." This is an excellent example why the Muslim world hates the United States. Is it any wonder Muslim oil countries raise American gas prices so often?

I asked several Armenians why U.S. taxpayers should give Armenia billions of dollars of American hard-earned tax money.
"American taxpayers have no say to what cause their tax dollar is allocated towards. They listen to their elected government like good little children. Do you know how American taxpayers benefit from American foreign aid? They have the luxury of believing that they live in a country that helps those in need. Selfishness doesn't get votes and it certainly doesn't make your heart feel happy. The country you live in has a hand in things you can't even get your mind around, sorry to burst your bubble. The basic answer to your questions is that the American government doesn't want you to know why and it does not care what you think either."

Another Armenian wrote, "In the end, you suggest that we thank the American people'—the favorite way for political prostitutes and demagogues to express their own wishes by speaking in the name of the people. Unlike some behind-kissing crooks, we don't have to thank anybody for anything."

A third Armenian summed up her state's attitude in this way: "To answer why American tax money should go to Armenia, plain and simple, because Armenia deserves it. You really are an illiterate and stupid 'son of a bitch.'"

The proof presented from the pen of the Armenians own historian is that the state of Armenia founded what it called its American colony in 1919. Armenia sent paid agents and thousands of its people to the United States and other Christian nations for one basic purpose—to lobby and beg for money for what they claim as their "ancient" homeland. The work of this Armenian "American colony" continues to this very day. As any reader can clearly see from the above messages I have received, Armenians have an Old World imperialist attitude toward the United States. Take all the resources of its American colony to the "ancient" homeland of Armenia and never send anything back into the colony from Armenia.

Many Armenians have written, attacking me for being a paid agent of the Turkish government. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I have offered to allow the Armenian Assembly of America to examine my bank records for the past five years to prove that I am a teller of the truth. I also asked the Armenian Assembly of America to at allow me to examine their bank and financial records to determine if any of my tax money has been diverted from the Armenian government to this lobby organization. The Armenian Assembly of America's answer is silence.

I have concluded that Armenians are taught to hate Turks
and Muslims from birth. The following message was sent to me that makes this point. It is typical of the many I have received: “Turks are all dogs, liars, and represent the very worst of the human condition, they are a cancer on this earth, the most amazing thing is they've become more of a problem for the world
now then they've ever been."

Turkey has been a true and loyal friend as well as a partner of the United States since World War II. The Turks fought side by side with American troops in Korea, the Gulf War, and other wars since World War II. Where was Armenia? On the opposing side every time.

Turkey is the only democratic Muslim nation in the world. It is in the best interests of the United States and the world to continue friendship with this important nation in the Near East.

Let me make it very clear that all Armenians are not bad people and not all Armenians are terrorists. Permit me to share "in- example why I can say that all Armenians are not bad people. Consider what one lovely Armenian lady wrote to me.

"Armenians are taught hate from birth and I know it is extremely wrong that it has been aimed at the Turkish. I myself do have very close Turkish friends and I love them with all my heart. I don't think it is right to say hateful and bad things against all Armenians. I have nothing against Turks and I think the Turks have made wonderful contributions to the world through their culture. I am a Christian, although I am not traditional Armenian Orthodox.

"I do believe that whatever has or hasn't happened, it should he forgiven for that would be the most 'Christ like' for all of us in do. We should work on building a relationship between Armenia and Turkey that will make both countries prosper. It's sad that two great cultures cannot contribute to each other and remain peaceful. Anyway, I hope that this email might change something."

In a follow-up email she wrote: "I know it is sad that Armenia is the first Christian nation in the world but doesn't show any 'Christ like' actions. I love Armenians, and I love God. 1 don't know about Baptist churches being persecuted but I have noticed that many Armenians that 1 know get a little upset when I tell them I'm not the traditional Armenian Apostolic like they are (fake Christianity used to have a social circle I have noticed). I in fact am a nondenominational born-again Christian."

There is hope that in the years to come there will be a change in the present "official" Armenian terrorist attitudes as evidenced by this lady's beautiful message.

I ask every reader of this book to examine the words I have written with an open mind. I ask every reader to check out the facts I have presented for themselves to determine if the material I have presented is true. The reader will note that I use more Armenian sources and proof than from all other sources combined. Once the reader determines truth it will be for that individual to determine what additional action he or she should do to right a great wrong done to the Muslim world in the name of Jesus Christ.

Samuel A. Weems,
member of Calvary Baptist Church, Hazen, Arkansas



regards (thank u,God Bless ur Soul,God Bless u now from waited following Armenian terrorist attacks to u)

[Kontra1]

ISTANBUL 2004


http://img14.imgspot.com/u/05/116/10/BushInIstanbul.JPG


I rather to be on this guy's side than Chirac's. We have the exact same way of tackling problems.


Kontra1

[achilles]

Just a tiny friendly advice Clearday...the way you post is not helping you. By posting endless chunks of text you guarantee that noone wil read it. Try making your sources more compact and we will get the message. I am serious.

BTW, you are still running short on URLs. Where are those "Turkey kicks ass dot-com" websites :lol:

[Kontra1]

Just a tiny friendly advice Clearday...the way you post is not helping you. By posting endless chunks of text you guarantee that noone wil read it. Try making your sources more compact and we will get the message. I am serious.

Seriously...are you reading them at all ?


Kontra1

[achilles]

I rather to be on this guy's side than Chirac

Good, so the IQ of both of you can add up to a total of 87 :lol:

[Clearday-TRForce]

http://www.turkses.com/armenian_book/kapak.gif




Every American will forever remember where they were on the morning of September 11, 2001—the date Muslim extremists attacked New York City and Washington, D.C. Americans will also remember watching the celebrations in some parts of the Muslim world in the Middle East.

Many Americans are asking the question, "Why do Muslims hate the United States?" Unfortunately, the Muslim world has good cause to not like Americans and this book documents one very good reason this is true. This book could well be titled One Good Reason Why Muslims Hate Americans.

Of course, not all Muslims hate the United States. I was in Istanbul, Turkey, on September 11 producing a video titled The Seven Churches of Revelation and doing research on this book. (Many Americans do not know that Asia Minor of the Bible is today's Turkey. Many Christians are not aware that Turkey is the second most important country in the world to historical Christianity.) Turkey is unique in that almost 97 percent of its population is Muslim. Turkey is also the only democratic Muslim nation in the world.

This modern-day Near East democratic country was founded in 1923 because of the genius of one man: Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (1881-1938). He instituted extensive reforms and was truly one of the great world statesmen of the twentieth century. He threw the sultans out of the country and removed the Muslim religious leaders from their powerful positions in government. A new constitution was adopted that separated religion from government. Education was mandated for everyone. Women were given the right to vote and work in any profession. Muslim traditional dress for women was no longer required. Ataturk's long list of reforms and improvements go on and on.

It was because of the vision of Ataturk in 1923 that I enjoyed total freedom of movement, speech, and religion in Turkey in August and September 2001. Ataturk believed Turkey must turn to the West if the nation was to grow and prosper. Turkey continues today in the Ataturk tradition. It is the reason this Muslim nation is such a close friend and strong ally of the United States, more so than any other Muslim nation.

Within thirty minutes of the third plane hitting its target in Washington, D.C., the prime minister of Turkey was on national television telling citizens he had placed the military on the highest alert. He also said he had called the president of the United States to say if America went to war, his country was ready to go to war also because Turkey and the United States are friends, allies, and partners.

This is remarkable when one realizes the Muslim nations of Iran, Iraq, and Syria are next-door neighbors. Also in the neighborhood are Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Sudan, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Pakistan, Azerbaijan, and Afghanistan.

I wish every American could have been with me to experience the reaction of the Turks to the cowardly attack on the United States. Taxi drivers, waiters, waitresses, employees in the small shops and large stores, government employees—all, without exception, voiced genuine sorrow and support for their government's willingness to send their young men to fight the war on terrorism with the United States.

Turks, even though 97 percent Muslim, do not share the views of other Muslims who hate the United States. Consequently, it is a tragedy that a small group of Armenian-Americans is waging a campaign of hate toward Turkey within the United States today. This tiny band of people has caused some thirty state legislatures to pass meaningless resolutions attacking Turkey for an alleged genocide of 1915—eight years before Turkey became (\ nation.

I have uncovered facts that prove Armenian-Americans are spreading tall tales claiming a massacre and genocide in an effort to get mega-dollars out of both the Turks and American Christians to benefit their 150-year-old "ancient" homeland. The question for my fellow Americans to answer is simply this: Whom do you believe—other Americans who saw the Armenians, very much alive, leaving the Ottoman Empire? Or Armenians who merely claim 1.5 million of their people were murdered by the Ottoman government?

This book is based on historical evidence, much of it from Armenian sources. American Christians are invited to search the total record for themselves to determine who is telling truth and who is making up and spreading tall tales for their own selfish reasons.

In 1992, Armenia captured 20 percent of the lands of Muslim Azerbaijan through a surprise, unprovoked attack. The Armenians thrust more than a million Muslims from their homes without compensation, forcing them now to live in squalor in tent city refugee camps. The Russians gave Armenia more than a billion dollars worth of military arms and supplies. According to a U.S. Congressional Study Report, over the past ten years, the United States has given Armenia 1.4 billion dollars in foreign aid while discriminating against Muslim Azerbaijan by cutting foreign aid to it. This is one reason many Muslims hate Americans.

When the Azerbaijani government recovered from the attack, the country began to defend itself from the Armenian terrorists. Congress reacted by punishing Azerbaijan. The Armenian lobby within the United States lobbied Congress to pass laws to cut off many kinds of aid to Azerbaijan because the Azerbaijanis had established a blockade to prevent military sup-plies from reaching Armenia. In 1992, Congress passed the Freedom Support Act and Section 907, which restricts certain types of foreign aid to Azerbaijan until it has lifted its "illegal" blockade of Armenia.

Does the United States have the right to determine how one nation defends itself against another? What if another nation had passed such legislation against the United States after Japan attacked us on December 7, 1941. Why, then, is the United States punishing Azerbaijan? Why is the United States denying a country its sacred right to defend its land and people? Why is the United States taking the side of aggressor and ethnic cleanser? Didn't we punish an aggressor—Saddam Hussein—by bombing Iraq? Didn't we punish an ethnic cleanser—Slobodan Milosevic—by bombing Yugoslavia? Why are we now rewarding some others who perpetrated both aggression and ethnic cleansing?

Perhaps Congress passed such a law because the Armenians claim to be the first Christian nation on earth and Azerbaijan is a Muslim country. Is it any wonder gasoline prices have steadily increased during this same period of time because the Middle Eastern countries we obtain oil from are also Muslim? Clearly, these Islamic countries have no reason to cut the United States any slack when America joined with Russia to help Armenia attack its neighbor. This American attitude of helping so-called Christians against Muslims, even when the so-called Christians are terribly wrong and do evil deeds, is a major reason many Middle Eastern Muslims hate Americans.

Consider just how and why the United States discriminated against Muslim Azerbaijan. In 1992, the small but vocal Armenian-American lobby talked the U.S. Congress into passing a law to cut aid to Azerbaijan. Why? Because the Armenians claim Azerbaijan refused to allow Armenia to continue to use its ports to receive military supplies and to allow Armenia permission to transport those supplies over Azerbaijan territory. Armenian-Americans influenced Congress to call the Azerbaijan act of self-defense an "illegal embargo."

Now, after September 11, President George W. Bush is attempting to reach out and secure support of Muslim nations—including Azerbaijan—to help in the U.S. war on terrorism. One reason this small state is important to America's war effort is because of how near it is geographically to Afghanistan. The president has asked Congress to repeal the 1992 law cutting off foreign aid to Azerbaijan. As a result of this, Armenian-Americans launched a nationwide campaign to oppose President Bush's effort to get the support of this important Muslim country. Armenian-Americans claim it might harm Armenia. Apparently, this is more important than the national interests of the United States.

At the same time Armenian-Americans are fighting President Bush, they are also working to get an Armenian terrorist out of a California prison. This Armenian terrorist assassinated a Turkish diplomat in 1982. The terrorist was caught, charged, tried, found guilt by a California jury, and sentenced to life in prison without parole. Armenian-Americans want this convicted assassin back on the streets of the United States.

It is especially important after what occurred on September 11 that we, as a nation, establish as many close friendships within the Muslim world as we can. It does not make sense to continue to support a terrorist state, like Armenia, even if it claims to be Christian.

It isn't right for Congress to react to the political pressure of a small but loud group calling themselves Armenians. It is long past time to examine the Armenian record. This tiny state's chief export since 1918 has been terrorism and the chief import has been foreign aid from Christians around the world.

Because there are so few Muslims in the United States, Armenian-American lobbyists have free rein here. No one has checked to determine if Armenia is a true Christian state, as it claims. This book will explore the efforts and activities of the Armenians to establish what they claim is an independent and free state. This book will also examine the merits of the Armenian claim they are Christian. Are they really?

The facts that will be proved in this book are as follows:

In 1890, a tiny gang of Armenians began a terrorist revolutionary movement within the Ottoman Empire to obtain the lands and property of Muslims free of charge by conquest. These Armenians claimed their ancestors possessed these lands some three thousand years ago. However, Armenian Christians had lived in peace with Ottoman Muslims for more than five hundred years before their terrorist campaign began in 1890. They had lived under Roman rule for perhaps a thousand years before that.

Until 1914 and 1915, this band of troublemakers within the Ottoman Empire was so small the Ottomans ignored them. Then Russia invaded the Ottoman Empire and these Armenians flocked to join them, believing the Russian czar would give them the Ottoman lands they coveted and schemed to obtain. The czar had no intention of doing such a thing.

Turkish Armenians pretended to be friendly neighbors of the Ottomans by day but began destructive terrorist attacks behind Ottoman military lines by night. These terrorist attacks on Ottoman soil hurt the Ottoman troops, hindering their ability to fight the Russians. The Ottoman government was forced to remove all Armenians from behind the battle zones because they could not determine which Armenians were terrorists and which were not. This is much the same thing nations have done to protect themselves from what they perceived as disloyal people for thousands of years.

A recent example of this is the U.S. government's removal of Japanese-Americans from the West Coast to internment camps inland after Japan attacked the United States on December 7, 1941. On February 19,1942, President Franklin Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9006, an exclusion order that gave the military permission to remove Japanese-Americans from military areas. This order permitted West Coast authorities—sensitive not only to the prospect of Japanese attacks but also to the possibility of spies collecting information for the enemy—to forcibly move Japanese-Americans to internment camps farther inland. Of course, Japanese-Americans did not establish armies behind American lines or join up with advancing Japanese armies. It was simply the fear of such a possibility that caused the U.S. government to incarcerate them.

What the Ottomans did in 1915 was no different. However, in this situation, Armenians did establish terrorism behind Ottoman lines, did join up with advancing enemy armies (Russian and French), and did try to ethnically cleanse Muslims, mostly Turks, from areas the Armenians planned to carve out of the Ottoman Empire for themselves.

The sad story is what the Armenians did thereafter to deceive Christians of America and the world. The Armenian leaders sent paid agents throughout the Christian world to tell untrue stories about how hundreds of thousands of their Christians had been massacred by the terrible Turk Muslims.

The truth is that American eyewitnesses accounted for the Armenians who were removed from the combat areas as they left the Ottoman lands. Armenian spin doctors today have increased the numbers they claim to have been massacred from a few hundred thousand to 1.5 million. Armenians saw how the world responded to what the Nazis did to the Jews during World War II. Then, more than forty-three years after the event, Armenians cried out the Turks committed a terrible "genocide" in 1915. Modern-day Turkey didn't even become a nation until 1923—eight years after the Ottomans kicked the Armenians out of their country for being terrorists and disloyal.

The so-called Armenian state would have been nothing more than a single footnote in history had the Ottomans not joined forces with Germany during World War I—and lost. During this Great War, the United States did not even declare war on the Ottoman Empire. For some odd reason, the Armenians then, as now, lake the position the Americans and other Allied nations owe them Muslim lands. Not only that, but the Armenians also believe the Allies owe them their troops and money to protect and help occupy and retain Muslim lands from sea to sea. There is little or no proof Armenians contributed much of anything to winning the war.

After the war ended, a tiny gang of dictators took control of some landlocked mountain lands in Russia and proclaimed themselves the Republic of Armenia. One of the first things this new state of Armenia did was launch a sneak attack on its Christian neighbor Georgia in an unprovoked attempt to obtain land. The Armenian terrorist dictators lost.

Shortly thereafter, the Armenian leaders attempted another surprise attack, this time on Muslim Azerbaijan. Again, the Armenian terrorist dictators lost.

The Armenians begged for arms and ammunition from the Allies to protect themselves. During this time Armenian-paid agents were trying to get any Allied country to send troops to help the Armenians gobble up the Muslim lands they coveted and schemed to obtain for free.

Meanwhile, the Armenian leaders were plotting another attack on the Turks. This time the Turks beat the Armenians to the punch, attacked first, and reclaimed their own "historic homelands" the Ottomans had possessed for some eight hundred years. During the time the Armenian leaders were making secret plans to attack the Turks, they were also making covert deals with the Russians. Armenia became a part of the Soviet Union without ever firing a shot in self-defense. In 1988, Armenia claimed to have become an independent state but continued to maintain close ties to Russia as evidenced by Armenia's request that Russia build military bases within their tiny state. Russian troops are stationed at these bases, Russian MIG fighter jets are based in the country, and there are many surface-to-air missile batteries there today because Armenia asked for them.

Why should Congress give billions of dollars to such people when they are in the Russians' pocket? Why not just let the Russians take care of their own people?

Christians throughout the world must stop taking the word of Armenians at face value and examine the truth for themselves. This Christian, in making an independent examination, has discovered the truth cannot be found on Armenian web sites or in books and articles written by Armenians. Most Muslims have been forced out of the country. Now Armenia is one of the most closed Christian societies on earth. It has just one "official" church, which is a part of the state and given authority by the Armenian constitution. There is no such thing as the separation of church and state in this tiny land.

Contrast this fact with the Turks, whom the Armenians love to hate. It is interesting to note that there are more Armenian Churches in Turkey than there are in Armenia and contrary to most other data they make available on the web, that one is absolutely correct. I have recently been to Turkey. I witnessed with my own eyes that Turks and Armenians live and worship together in great freedom, harmony, and friendship. This is quite a contrast with the Armenian-Americans' ugly misrepresentations and evil efforts to plant the seeds of hatred and rage, here in the United States, against Turks. Just what kind of Christianity do these Armenian-Americans practice?

Why, for example, does the Armenian Church continue to use animal blood sacrifices? Why does the Armenian Church not believe in the total forgiveness of sins as taught by Christ? Why have Armenian Christian leaders called out publicly for the blessing of mythical gods?

The long list of deception, fraud, abuses, massacres, and terrorist acts Armenians have committed are documented in this book. These are Armenian secrets they don't want the Christians of the world to know about, but they are revealed and documented in Armenian sources. These reports are factual reports by Armenians themselves.

Every Christian and every public official should read this book before agreeing to either give money or vote for meaningless resolutions attacking modern-day Turkey, solely based on the Armenian tall tales that were invented by them, in order to get lots of free stuff from the Christian world. There was no "genocide" as they claim.

Direct evidence will be provided, several times, from Armenian sources that the Armenia's government directed terrorist attacks as official state policy. There have been Armenian terrorist attacks and murders within nations all over the world in recent years.

I am not Azerbaijani, Georgian, Turk; I am not Armenian. I am a Scottish-American, whose first Scottish ancestor came to America in 1686. I am a Southerner, a lifelong Baptist, and an American taxpayer. I have written this book under the light of extensive research in locations such as Washington, D.C., Rome, Paris, London, Moscow, and Istanbul. It would have been helpful to research in Armenia but their archives are not open to the public.

The archives in Istanbul, Turkey, are very much open, however, and have been for some time. The irony is that the files in Armenia's capital of Erevan and Armenian Revolutionary Federation offices in Boston are still closed to researchers and the public. What are they hiding? Why does Armenia have an Armenian Revolutionary Federation office in the United States?

The pages to follow are based on the pen of the chief historian of the self-called Republic of Armenia. The historians' own words and the sources he sited prove, beyond a shadow of doubt, that his beloved Armenia is a bogus rogue state. The observations revealed in the pages to follow are written by a neutral seeker of fact and truth behind events that date from 1890 and continue to the present day.

Because I am not a professional historian I may have made technical mistakes in preparing this book. I accept responsibility for such errors. However, the facts that are presented in the text of the book speak directly and honestly for themselves.

There have been prominent Americans, dating back to 1919, who have spoken out about Armenian corruption to deceive the Christian world into giving them vast amounts of unregulated money. The Armenian response to any American citizen who spoke out or objected has been, and continues to be, the same: They always launch character or physical attacks on any such person.

Hubert Hoover directed the U.S. effort to help rebuild Europe after World War I. He experienced only one failure and that was the dictator-run state of Armenia. This future American president stated that Armenian corruption "would be the greatest scandal in American charitable history. "The Armenians responded by attacking his character.
Readers of this book will discover from the words of today's Armenians that this attitude of ingratitude continues. The proof will be that the Armenian attitude is that American citizens owe their tax dollars to Armenia.

There are several U.S. citizens who have researched Armenia and published their findings. Each of them has been subjected to Armenian campaigns of terror. Consider but a few such individuals:

• Professor Stanford Shaw of UCLA. Armenians bombed his
home and terrorized him in several different ways.
• Professor Heath Lowry of Princeton University was recently
forced out as chairman of a Near Eastern studies program
because of a two-year hate and smear campaign directed
against him.
• Professor Justin McCarthy of the University of Louisville
has been subjected to all manner of character attacks and
attempts to have him removed from his teaching position.
• Film maker Robin Williams recently produced a documen
tary film titled The Biblical Treasures of Turkey, Several times
when he attempted to show his film, young Armenians
disrupted the showings. On one occasion Armenian youth
invaded the theater by throwing stink bombs and forcing
the evacuation of the audience.

Once the announcement was made that this book was to be published I experienced a vicious attack directed by the Armenian Assembly of America. This is a large mega million-dollar special interest lobby based in Washington, D.C. It has forty or fifty professional employees. The sole purpose of this special interest Armenian lobby organization is to obtain as much American taxpayer dollars as they can for Armenia. This amounts to almost 1,5 billion dollars over the past ten years. In addition, the Armenian Assembly of America also works to oppose anything relating to Turkey or the other Muslim nations of the Near East. Because of the hate campaign directed toward me by the Armenian Assembly of America more than a thousand messages have poured in attacking me personally. Of this number, there are twenty-three death threats. Consider the "character" of the Armenians who wrote the following messages to me about a book not one of them could have read yet. (I received these threats before the book was even published.)
· "The St. John Press book is full of lies, lies, and lies. Who paid Weems to write it? It's so typical of Turkish revisionism. Are you sure you want to be supporting a website that's so blatantly deceptive?"
· "Having read the book of Mr. Samuel A. Weems, I pro
claim that all the facts that the author is talking about are DEFINITELY FALSE,"
· "You stupid f—ing ignorant savages!! How can you really
believe what you are publishing and distributing?"

Consider the following examples of threats upon my life. I take such threats seriously because in recent years Armenians have murdered some seventy people around the world, four here in the United States.

• "I just wanted to tell you that you will burn in hell for putting down the first Christian nation. I will make sure to show up to your funeral, hopefully soon, and piss on your pathetic corpse."
• "I will never ever ever forget my revenge so get ready for it. There are 1 OOOOOOOOOOOOOs like me alllll over the world. Keep smiling."
• "U deserve to die a beast. Some Armenian is gonna kill u some day. And ur not gonna like the Armenian wrath!!!!!!!!"
• "I want to mention that your book about Armenia is stu-pid as you, because to write such a book against Armenia which is country in the world to accept Christian first, Iwant to inform you, as you know we are separated all overthe world and if I can find you I'll kill you."

I personally responded to a handful of the messages I received in order to ask questions of Armenians. I was curious about how they think. One question I asked was whether Armenians approve of all the death threats I was receiving. Here is a typical answer: "It seems that you are generalizing that Armenians are terrorists from the death threats you have received. Since when does protecting your culture make a whole nation a terrorist state?"

The prevailing Armenian attitude is that it is permissible to make death threats upon anyone with whom you disagree as a matter of "Armenian" culture. This is an unacceptable attitude within a civilized world.

I asked Armenians the question why their state made a sneak attack on their neighbor Muslim Azerbaijan in 1992. The Armenians captured 20 percent of the country and forced more than 1 million poor souls to flee their homes and live in horrible tent city refugee conditions. Here is a typical answer of why Christian Armenia made the sneak attack on Muslim Azerbaijan: Don't you tell me that the Armenians fighting with the Azeris makes Armenians less Christian. Look back in history and you will find that a Holy War took place."

The facts are the Armenians received more than 1 billion dollars in military hardware from the Russians to wage what this Armenian calls a "Holy War." Christian Russia and Christian America supports Armenia in its "Holy War." This is an excellent example why the Muslim world hates the United States. Is it any wonder Muslim oil countries raise American gas prices so often?

I asked several Armenians why U.S. taxpayers should give Armenia billions of dollars of American hard-earned tax money.
"American taxpayers have no say to what cause their tax dollar is allocated towards. They listen to their elected government like good little children. Do you know how American taxpayers benefit from American foreign aid? They have the luxury of believing that they live in a country that helps those in need. Selfishness doesn't get votes and it certainly doesn't make your heart feel happy. The country you live in has a hand in things you can't even get your mind around, sorry to burst your bubble. The basic answer to your questions is that the American government doesn't want you to know why and it does not care what you think either."

Another Armenian wrote, "In the end, you suggest that we thank the American people'—the favorite way for political prostitutes and demagogues to express their own wishes by speaking in the name of the people. Unlike some behind-kissing crooks, we don't have to thank anybody for anything."

A third Armenian summed up her state's attitude in this way: "To answer why American tax money should go to Armenia, plain and simple, because Armenia deserves it. You really are an illiterate and stupid 'son of a bitch.'"

The proof presented from the pen of the Armenians own historian is that the state of Armenia founded what it called its American colony in 1919. Armenia sent paid agents and thousands of its people to the United States and other Christian nations for one basic purpose—to lobby and beg for money for what they claim as their "ancient" homeland. The work of this Armenian "American colony" continues to this very day. As any reader can clearly see from the above messages I have received, Armenians have an Old World imperialist attitude toward the United States. Take all the resources of its American colony to the "ancient" homeland of Armenia and never send anything back into the colony from Armenia.

Many Armenians have written, attacking me for being a paid agent of the Turkish government. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I have offered to allow the Armenian Assembly of America to examine my bank records for the past five years to prove that I am a teller of the truth. I also asked the Armenian Assembly of America to at allow me to examine their bank and financial records to determine if any of my tax money has been diverted from the Armenian government to this lobby organization. The Armenian Assembly of America's answer is silence.

I have concluded that Armenians are taught to hate Turks
and Muslims from birth. The following message was sent to me that makes this point. It is typical of the many I have received: “Turks are all dogs, liars, and represent the very worst of the human condition, they are a cancer on this earth, the most amazing thing is they've become more of a problem for the world
now then they've ever been."

Turkey has been a true and loyal friend as well as a partner of the United States since World War II. The Turks fought side by side with American troops in Korea, the Gulf War, and other wars since World War II. Where was Armenia? On the opposing side every time.

Turkey is the only democratic Muslim nation in the world. It is in the best interests of the United States and the world to continue friendship with this important nation in the Near East.

Let me make it very clear that all Armenians are not bad people and not all Armenians are terrorists. Permit me to share "in- example why I can say that all Armenians are not bad people. Consider what one lovely Armenian lady wrote to me.

"Armenians are taught hate from birth and I know it is extremely wrong that it has been aimed at the Turkish. I myself do have very close Turkish friends and I love them with all my heart. I don't think it is right to say hateful and bad things against all Armenians. I have nothing against Turks and I think the Turks have made wonderful contributions to the world through their culture. I am a Christian, although I am not traditional Armenian Orthodox.

"I do believe that whatever has or hasn't happened, it should he forgiven for that would be the most 'Christ like' for all of us in do. We should work on building a relationship between Armenia and Turkey that will make both countries prosper. It's sad that two great cultures cannot contribute to each other and remain peaceful. Anyway, I hope that this email might change something."

In a follow-up email she wrote: "I know it is sad that Armenia is the first Christian nation in the world but doesn't show any 'Christ like' actions. I love Armenians, and I love God. 1 don't know about Baptist churches being persecuted but I have noticed that many Armenians that 1 know get a little upset when I tell them I'm not the traditional Armenian Apostolic like they are (fake Christianity used to have a social circle I have noticed). I in fact am a nondenominational born-again Christian."

There is hope that in the years to come there will be a change in the present "official" Armenian terrorist attitudes as evidenced by this lady's beautiful message.

I ask every reader of this book to examine the words I have written with an open mind. I ask every reader to check out the facts I have presented for themselves to determine if the material I have presented is true. The reader will note that I use more Armenian sources and proof than from all other sources combined. Once the reader determines truth it will be for that individual to determine what additional action he or she should do to right a great wrong done to the Muslim world in the name of Jesus Christ.

Samuel A. Weems,
member of Calvary Baptist Church, Hazen, Arkansas



regards (thank u,God Bless ur Soul,God Bless u now from waited following Armenian terrorist attacks to u)

[achilles]

Just a tiny friendly advice Clearday...the way you post is not helping you. By posting endless chunks of text you guarantee that noone wil read it. Try making your sources more compact and we will get the message. I am serious.

Seriously...are you reading them at all ?


Kontra1

Just browsing though them quickly is more than enough to draw scientific inference ;)

[Clearday-TRForce]

Turkish group protests Schwarzenegger over Armenian genocide statement
April 26, 2005



ANKARA, Turkey – A Turkish group uniting hundreds of businesses and organizations demanded Tuesday that Arnold Schwarzenegger's movies be banned from Turkish television to protest the California governor's use of the term genocide to describe the massacre of Armenians by Turks during World War I.

Schwarzenegger, a former actor best known for his role in "The Terminator," declared April 24 a "Day of Remembrance of the Armenian Genocide." California has one of the largest populations of diaspora Armenians.

Other California governors have issued annual proclamations referring to the killings as a genocide, but last week Schwarzenegger also signed legislation to permanently mark the day.

An umbrella organization grouping some 300 Ankara-based associations, unions and businesses and led by the Ankara Chamber of Commerce said it launched a petition to have the governor's films banned in Turkey.

"We condemn and protest movie star Arnold Schwarzenegger, who declared April 24 a day to commemorate the Armenian genocide and accused Turks of genocide by acting under the influence of the Armenian lobby, and without researching historical truths," read a statement from Sinan Aygun, head of Ankara Chamber of Commerce.

"We don't want his films shown in Turkey," said the statement.

Armenia says up to 1.5 million Armenians died or were killed as part of a genocidal campaign to force them out of eastern Turkey. Turkey acknowledges that large numbers of Armenians died, but says the overall figure is inflated and that the deaths occurred in civil unrest during the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

Margita Thompson, Schwarzenegger's spokeswoman, said the governor's proclamation speaks for itself. The boycott of his movies was a freedom of expression and his office was not going to comment on it, she said.

Ergun Kirlikovali, spokesman for the American Turkish Association of Southern California, said that while prior governors have signed the same resolution – there is a new effort among Turks to express their side of the story.

"Turks everywhere are drawing the line," said Kirlikovali. "Turkish silence on this has been misinterpreted as Turkish guilt. We're saying we have our story to tell, please listen to us."

Kirlikovali said the Turkish people are particularly upset with Schwarzenegger, whom they believed was "one of our guys," because of his Austrian ancestry.

"He turned around and stabbed us in the back," Kirlikovali said.

California state Sen. Chuck Poochigian, R-Fresno, author of the legislation permanently marking the day of remembrance, said the Turkish government continues to ignore the incident.

"With growing attempts to revise the historical record of this period and denial of truth by the Turkish government, it's vitally important that false depictions of the tragedies of the genocide are rejected," he said in a statement.



look at POLITICIANS flaming...
look at UR CIVILISED HUMAN lying...
Arnold... Who is HE? Actor? Historian ? Politician? Who s He?
And What do Samuel Weems say? It s full of trusty person. He s a church member. He s an attorney...He says A TERRORIST COUNTRY CALLED ARMENIAN.AND U SUPOORT AGAIN SOME TERRORIST.WHAT A SHAME OF YOU?



http://www.turkses.com/armenian_book/kapak.gif


Christians throughout the world must stop taking the word of Armenians at face value and examine the truth for themselves. This Christian, in making an independent examination, has discovered the truth cannot be found on Armenian web sites or in books and articles written by Armenians. Most Muslims have been forced out of the country. Now Armenia is one of the most closed Christian societies on earth. It has just one "official" church, which is a part of the state and given authority by the Armenian constitution. There is no such thing as the separation of church and state in this tiny land.


thanks (God Bless you)

[Clearday-TRForce]

Prof. Feigle: It Is A Standard Lie To Claim Ottomans Killed 1,5 Million Armenians


Prof. Erich Feigle of Austria said, ''it is a standard lie to claim that Ottomans killed 1,5 million innocent (Armenian) women and children.''

Speaking at a panel discussion on ''Historical Realities in Turkish-Armenian Relations'' held in Istanbul Technical University on Monday, Prof. Feigle said, ''people are misled with imaginary incidents and wrong numbers. It is a standard lie to claim that Ottomans killed 1,5 million innocent women and children. 1,700,000 Armenians were living in Ottoman Empire in 1912 and this means that 4.4 percent of population in Ottoman-ruled territories were Armenians.''

''Armenian national delegation chairman wrote a letter to Armenians and said 700,000 Armenians had been exiled and he did not mention genocide in that letter. Also in a letter to French Foreign Minister, the chairman said Armenians were one of the leading communities from the beginning of the war,'' said Prof. Feigle.

''This is the most important document we have. Armenians hide documents which are against them.(we know,but someones keep them for their disgusting aims) They pursue physical and psychological war. This war is a camouflage. They occupied one-fifth of lands of Azerbaijan under this camouflage. They killed 20,000 civilians,'' added Prof. Feigle.

''It seems that Turkey can't do anything against this psychological war. I request Turks to trust themselves. Turkey shall not start a discussion on 'genocide'. If it such a discussion starts, Armenians firstly want compensation and then land from Turkey. Their propaganda aims to divide Turkey,'' noted Prof. Feigle.
Thanks Professor again.We know who wants what.



regards (respect true historian-history,not politicians)

[Clearday-TRForce]

http://www.turkses.com/armenian_book/kapak.gif

ARMENIA
THE GREAT DECEPTION
SECRETS OF A "CHRISTIAN"
TERRORIST STATE
BY
SAMUEL A. WEEMS


Samuel A. Weems’ new book could be titled ONE GOOD REASON THE MUSLIM WORLD HATES THE UNITED STATES. This book exposes selfish and wrong actions by the tiny state of Armenia and how they continue to use Christianity to obtain foreign aid from Christian nations and funding by Christian churches. Weems notes that foreign aid is the number one import of Armenia today and terrorism is this tiny state’s number one export.

The author of this book is a Scottish American, a life long Baptist, and a taxpayer. He has done extensive research in archives in Washington, D.C., London, England, Paris, France, Moscow, Russia and Istanbul, Turkey. The Armenian archives are located in Yerevan, Armenia and are not open to public. Also not open to public are the archives of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, a political terrorist organization located in Boston, Massachusetts. These two Armenian archives escaped scholarly research and scrutiny to this very day. The author asks "What the Armenians are trying to hide?"

The author asks such questions as why an Armenian terrorist organization, which gained dictatorial power of Armenia in 1918 has its archives in the United States?

Why are such archives closed to the general public, when the Armenians take advantage of the tax-exempt laws of the United States?

During the research process for this book, the author discovered that the tiny state of Armenia established what it calls its "Armenian Colony" in the United States in 1918. In addition, Armenia established the Armenian National Union of America, the Armenian Press Bureau based in New York and other Armenian-based groups in America at the same time.

The sole purpose of these political action organizations was to seek out U.S. government funding and also money and contributions from Christians throughout the United States. In addition, these self-serving Armenian groups work to influence American public opinion, lobby elected officials, and oppose anything connected to Azerbaijan and Turkey. Such efforts that began during the World War I continue unabated to this very day.

Armenia "claims" to be the first Christian State on earth dating back 1700 years. The question is asked: "Is Armenia really "Christian" as tested by true Christian standards?"

What has been the role of the one and only "official" Armenian State Church in terrorist activities?

The chapter of this book titled "HOLY TERROR" is revealing, because this is the first time anyone has researched the Armenian Apostolic Church (also known as the Armenian Orthodox Church) and its leadership role in state sponsored terrorism!

The author provides clear evidence, time after time, that Armenia has, and continues to play, the Christian vs. Muslim religion/race/ethnic card with great success, regardless of truth.

For example, in 1992, with a billion dollars in Russian military aid, Armenia made a surprise-sneak attack on its neighbor Azerbaijan. Armenia quickly captured 20% of the country and drove more than one million poor Azerbaijanis from their homes. These Muslims live today in tent city squalor. Clearly, this conduct was not "love your neighbor as your self" as Christ taught.

Proof is given that the Armenian Church (the state constitution makes it the "official" church of Armenia) has been, and continues to be a leader in promoting and supporting on-going terrorist activities. The author hasn’t discovered any evidence that this so-called church speaks out in opposition to terrorist acts--even when Armenians were assassinating Turkish diplomats on a regular basis throughout the world starting in the 1970s and continued throughout the 1980s. Far from denouncing Armenian terrorism, the Armenian Church was the scene of systematic fund raising efforts designed to finance the legal defenses of the few Armenian terrorists who were caught and later convicted.

The government of the United States backed this self-called tiny Christian State by thereafter providing 1.4 billion dollars in foreign aid, courtesy of the American taxpayer, that is more foreign aid per person than to any country on earth.

At the same time, the United States Congress cut foreign aid assistance to Azerbaijan. The reason for this American government action is the result of the successful lobby work of the Armenian Colony within the United States. Armenian American lobbyists worded, handed over to some American lawmakers and eventually secured a national law that declares, on behalf of the United States government, that Azerbaijan created an "illegal blockade." All Azerbaijan did was to refuse to allow the land-locked tiny state of Armenia’s permission to use Azerbaijan’s ports to bring in military supplies to be used against the Azerbaijanis. This "self defense" was successfully misrepresented to the U.S. lawmakers as "illegal blockade".

Specific evidence is provided to prove, how the Armenian American Colonists lobbied American law-makers to punish Azerbaijan, because this nation defended itself from the "Christians", and refused to allow Armenia the privilege to transport military supplies across Azerbaijan’s soil, to then use against Azerbaijan. Wouldn’t any nation on earth do the same thing?

However, the United States government backed these "Christian" lobbyists. Author Weems asks the question: "Why did the United States join with Russia and take sides in a domestic matter against Azerbaijan?" The only answer is, it’s a "Christian" vs. "Muslim" conflict. The Christians were wrong in the days of the Crusades, just as they are wrong in getting mixed up with the Armenians today!

The author asks the question: "Isn’t this American support of joining with the Russians, to help "Christian" Armenia steal a neighbor’s land by the use of terrorism and force more than one million poor Muslims from their homes, a very good reason for the Muslim world to hate Americans?"

The sad story is that Armenia has been carrying out terrorist actions since 1918 that continue to this day. What is even sadder is the fact that the United States government and too many American Christians still support Armenians by giving money to Armenia just because of the false Armenian claim: "We are fellow Christians."

Every Christian in the United States must read this book, and do their own investigation to determine for themselves, the true story of Armenia.

The author provides, example after example, of how Armenians used terrorism as official policy, even before the founding of their Armenian Revolutionary Federation in 1890, and how a small band of dictators mislead their own people and established a dictatorial government that continues to use systematic violence to advance their causes to this day.

This book, among many revelations, will provide answers to many questions:

It uncovers the name and official position of the person who made up the tall tale that the Ottoman government massacred 1.5 million Armenians. This book also reveals the actual date the wild tall tale was first told, and who the tall tale was told to. Weems then provides the evidence as to how the tall tale was then spread throughout the Christian world that continues to this very day.

It uncovers and reveals all the details of why the Ottoman government kicked out all the Armenians who lived in the eastern part of the country in 1915. Proof is provided that the Ottoman government had good cause to remove Armenians from behind their army that was fighting the Russians. The reason was simple. Armenians were helping the invading Russians, by disrupting the Ottoman Army supply lines. Armenians, pretended to be the friends of Ottomans’ for more than 500 years, were playing friends by day and terrorists by night! Any nation on earth would have done the same thing when the nation was in danger of being destroyed!

The author has uncovered several American and British eyewitnesses who saw the Armenians leave the Ottoman lands. The question every reader will have to answer is this: "Whom do you believe? American and British officials who saw the Armenians leave the country, or the wild tall tales made up by "Armenians" who still use the ever growing tall tale as an excuse to try to get free hand-outs from throughout the Christian world?"

In this book the reader will discover that the author provides evidence, given by the Armenian historian, which proves that Armenians kept two sets of books. One to support their made up tall tale that 1.5 million of their people were massacred, and another set of books to count the same 1.5 million Armenians as refugees, so that more foreign handouts could be secured. One set of books to create pity, another to rake in the money unsuspecting Christians showered them with! The proof is that there simply cannot be 1.5 million Armenian people massacred, when the same 1.5 million Armenian people counted as refugees. One can not be dead and alive at the same time!
This book reveals, in detail, how Armenia has double-dealt friends and neighbors throughout history, with threads of continuity reaching to this very day.

This book provides the proof that Armenia committed far more terrorist acts than those Ottomans they accuse of committing.
Armenians claim that they are fighting to reclaim their "ancient homeland." This book provides the evidence to prove that the lands Armenians claim as "ancient" has only been their home for less than 200 years, and that the Russians drove out and killed millions of Muslims and gave their "ancient homelands" to the Armenians. Why did the Russians do this? Both the Russians and Armenians were the same sort of Christians while the Muslims were "different"!
This is a book that every American taxpayer must read!

President Bush is attempting to build friendships throughout the Muslim world because of the extremist Muslim attacks on New York and Washington D.C. on September 11th. American taxpayers will discover how Armenian American Colonists are opposing the President’s War on Terrorism for their own selfish interests. This book presents facts that will cause every non-Armenian Christian in the United States to raise his or her voice to protest the continuation of the federal government support and giving taxpayer’s hard earned dollars as aid to Armenia, because Armenia is fighting the President and the United States War On Terrorism!

Samuel A. Weems does not have a drop of Armenian, Azerbaijani, or Turkish blood in his veins. He is a life long Christian. He is very active in his church and has recently produced an excellent video titled "The Seven Churches of Revelation." He spent eight weeks in Turkey making this video and doing research on this book. He writes a regular newspaper column, and he has a great deal of experience in the political arena. He was elected one of one hundred delegates to rewrite his state’s constitution. He served as an elected member of his city council. He was also elected district attorney and a judge. While serving as a district attorney, he did extensive work in Washington D. C. to reform the nation’s welfare and prison systems.

Samuel A. Weems’s ability to research and go directly to the heart of a problem, thanks to his legal background, is revealed in this excellent book that will cause every non-Armenian American to become alarmed by the actions and conduct of such fellow citizens.

This author provides clear and convincing proof that Armenia is working to do things that endanger the safety and welfare of all citizens within the United States! This, in spite of the fact that U.S. citizens are keeping Armenia alive with their tax dollars!

ARMENIA—THE GREAT DECEPTION—SECRETS OF A "CHRISTIAN" STATE is a must read for every American who seeks the truth and wants to know how their tax dollars and missionary church money is spent!


http://www.turkses.com/armenian_book/kapak.gif

regards (respect PEOPLE who support Humanity)

[achilles]

^The Austrian 'professor' Feigle?...like we say Mengele? :lol:
Hey Clearday, thanks for containing the trash a little bit. Seriously, huge posts dont help anyone. Try readings your sources and cherry-pick the crucial points. Thanks.


Ok, let me first burst the bubble of this ridiculous liar named Samuel Weems. A judge from Arkansas who woke up one morning and thought that God himself told him he can play the role of historian.
This is from a personal communication with a journalist (M.S. In Journalism, U.C. Los Angeles) who also worked with IBM for over 33 years as a technical editor. (name undisclosed). First of all, lest see a few things about the nobble qualities of Mr. Weems' character:

I can understand where you are coming from: A judge from Arkansas. Most probably a political appointment. Career experience: handed out several hundred criminal and civil cases. No questions asked. When the Judge lowered the gavel everyone obeyed. Any whisper or dissatisfaction could be considered contempt of court. You, Judge, Weems, know only how to hand out orders. No one objected to your judicial decisions, but, because the field of historical journalism demands accurate and referable published sources you are left naked. As a defensive mechanism you are wearing the mantle of a Southern Baptist solely for the purpose of covering your iniquities.


Your e-mail of Feb. 4, 2002 asks immodestly, " Good sir, when did you or your forefathers first come to America"? Judge Weems, is this a covert insinuation that because your ancestors might have arrived on this continent a century before mine, then, ipso facto, you are a better American than I am?

Way to go Mr. Weems. Too bad you ass was exposed on the Internet.


Again, your e-mail of February 12, addressed to me, emphasizes the notion, as you claim:

"I don’t have a drop of Armenian, Turkish, Azerbaijani nor any Near East blood in my veins."


Is this a judicial terminology insinuating that you are superior to those of us who are Armenians, Turks or Azerbaijani?. Please don’t attempt to explain.

Yes please dont share with the rest of us your racist mindframe Mr. Weems. :lol:

And here is the good one:

You claim that you have written a book, based entirely on Armenian sources that proves (according to your claim) that the Ottoman Turks never massacred 1.5 million innocent Armenian citizens of Turkey between 1914-1922.

My response to that outlandish claim was and is, "why did you not refer to Western sources like the New York Times, The Times of London, The Boston Glob, and Turkish authors like Taner Akcam and Mehmed Tzkan." In my response of February 6, to your race baiting and slanderous remarks about all Armenians (your e-mail response of Feb., 4 to Mr. Jelalian’s) I listed several sources that you could research to establish the facts of the Ottoman Turkish massacres of their Armenian citizens.

Why, oh why Mr. Weems?


You claim the Armenians are "liars" and yet, you limit your sources of information only to Armenian sources, which, by-the-way, you have failed so far to reveal, which is an indication of nonexistence.

No sources, no truth Mr Weem. You, as a man of God and justice, should know better about the truth. :lol: . Simply put Mr. Weem is full of ****.

And here are some real sources published during, and after the Armenian genocide:

The New York Times, Friday, September 24, 1915, page 2, column 3: 500,000 Armenians said to Have Perished, Washington Asked to Stop Slaughter of Christians by Turks and Kurds.


New York Times, July 13, 1919, page 1, column 2 :Turkey Condemns Its War Leaders,


Court- Martial Gives Death Sentence to Enver Pasha, Talat Bey, and Djemal Pasha.

Henry Morgenthau, American Ambassador at Constantinople, and Sir Louis Mallet, the British Ambassador at the same place, have left no doubt in their dispatches, books, articles, and interviews of the guilt of the Young Turk leaders which has just been proclaimed with sentences ****ounced by a Turkish court-martial ordered by the new Grand Vizier Damad Ferid Pasha.....It is the climax of a long series of prosecutions to clear the skirts of the Turkish people from blame for the Armenian, Greek, and Syrian atrocities. (Just remember, Mr. Weems, the word genocide

was not discovered yet, it was generated after 1946.)

You should remember Mr. Weems p-)



New York Times, Sunday October 10, 1915, Section II, pages 3 and 4.:

Turkish Statesman Denounces Atrocities, Cherif Pasha Says Young Turks Long Planned to Exterminate the Armenians:

An arraignment of the Young Turks, or the Committee of Union and Progress, as having for years plotted the extermination of the Armenian people..... further, the same Turkish Statesman proclaims: "If there is a race which has been closely connected with the Turks by its fidelity, by its services to the country, by the Statesmen and functionaries of talent it has furnished, by the intelligence which it has manifested in all domains- commerce, industry, science, and the arts - it is certainly the Armenians." Mr. Weems, that was recorded by an honest Turk and there are just as many honorable Turks now as then.


New York Times, Current History (A Monthly Magazine of New York Times), October 1922

The Massacres of the Armenians in 1915, by George R. Montgomery: " The Armenians were driven into this desolate waste with the alleged purpose of forcibly transplanting them from their homes to a strange land - a purpose which, even had it been the real one, is repugnant to every human feeling."


Despite the fact that you have failed to present a single authentic source for your wild claims, you want us to believe you without questioning you. To add insult to injury, you have abandoned all scholarly avenues of research and study. You have resorted to slander and race-hating.


Further, in your e-mail response of February 4, you claim that we, Armenians are false Christians,

because we have not forgiven our enemy, the Turk, for massacring innocent women and children. You fail to recognize that you, yourself, wearing the mantel of a Southern Baptist Christian, have not forgiven us for our infirmities. But, instead, you are spreading lies and distortions of facts all for the glory and the pride of authorship.



The Turkish Government claims that their ancestors, the Ottomans, committed no sins. So, like good Christians, we say, when you admit the sins of your ancestors, like the Germans have done, then we will forgive both you and the Ottomans.

Amen Mr Weems :| .

linky (http://www.irantodayonline.com/newspaper/politics/march_02.html)

[achilles]

Hey Clearday, you found a source that suits your propaganda and you are sucking its blood.
In order to coroborrate something, you need a variety of independent, credible sources. Take my word for that ;)

Will you now seize posting Mr. Weems bull**** and especially that idiotic image of his book? :lol: The latter one really makes you look like a retard. Take my word again for it.
;)

[achilles]

I am quoting a Greek-American researcher who adopts a more holistic view of the Turkish genocidal practices. This is a reply to an, apparently profound Turkish historian :lol: , named Oktay...as we say Uday and Kusay p-)


I am a Greek American and I have studied the Christian Genocide in Asia Minor by the Ottoman Empire and the Turkish State. I concentrated all my research into non-Greek and non-Armenian literature and my conclusion is that YOUR Genocide was not limited to the 1.5 M Armenians but over 4/5 Million Christians.
These Christians were leaving in Asia Minor for couple of thousand years before you came from Asia as nomads. Asians.

Before the Neo-Turks, over 5 M Christians were leaving in the land you call today Turkey. Can you please tell the Globe how many Christians are right now in Turkey?
Can you explain to Globe what happened to all these millions of innocent people.

In case you do not know Mr. Oktay, I can tell you what is happening. You are walking on their bones of these innocent Christians. I know it as a fact, because one of these Christians you killed was my grand father and his only crime was that he was a Christian.


No Mr. Oktay, this is not a hate message. You know very well that the best friends of the Greeks right now are the Turks but History is History and we will not allow you to change it.

Evangelos Rigos PS: Talking about alegations of "revolts", I will appreciate very much if Boston Globe, and in addition to the Armenian Genocide, makes a research into the Hellenic Genocide as well as the Assyrian.

I am not taking the words of Mr. Rigos for grandit...but he sure has a point there: butchering can be one persistent bad habit.

linky (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/islamsohbetgrubu/message/76)

[achilles]

Throughout history, over 5,000,000 innocent human beings have fallen victim to the Turkish Ottoman Empire's campaigns of genocide. United Human Rights (http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Turkish_distortions_denial.htm)

Isnt this close to Mr. Rigos' estimate? I thought so. It is no surprise that certain 'Great' empires have based their perpetuation on constant slaughtering.


So the Ottomans are responsible for millions of deaths throughout their proud history. But i say we should cut them some slack.
They are partially responsible for the diffusion of fundamental cultural elements, like Kebab woot


So memetia...instead of posting crap on these boards, you should start apologizing to the Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Kurds, Cypriots and Serbs among MANY others, as well as to the rest of the world who has to bear with your preposterous tendency to deny historical facts and distort the truth about your bloody history. Until then, dont expect to be taken seriously by anyone.

So lets settle this with a final bodycount of approximately 5 million souls throughout your proud, Turkomongolic history.
What was the word? Genocide? Wrong. I say Megadeath!

[Nikitaras]

Nikiritas,




I have seen a rudely "abusing" to my ancestor ATATURK recently.Kontra has shown me.Have u seen anything from me to ur ancestors? "NO".WHY? Coz I respect ur nation and ur ancestors.But I do not find same things from u. And for the result I do not wanna type with u anymore.(1) Achilles and other Greek friends are more available to type.

thanks.

The reason I am rudely abusing your "father Turk" was staed in an earlier post. My grandmother's family has personally suffered at the hands of Ataturk's policies, so forgive me if I don't have a fanatical admiration for him that seems to be so prevalent among you guys.

Damn, no more typing with me, there goes my sleep cycle. Now if only KKKontra would make the same offer.

[achilles]

http://www.turkses.com/armenian_book/kapak.gif

BUT TURKEY IS GOOD YOU STUPID GREEK, YOU GREEKS BEEN SLAUGHTERING POOR OTTOMANS FOR CENTURIES NOW, AND ARMENIANS AS WELL. EVERYBODY SLAUGHTERING TURKS. EVERYBODY EVERYBODY EVERYBODY.TURKS GOOD TURKS GOOD. EVERYONE ELSE BAD !!!


:lol: :lol:

[achilles]

Damn, no more typing with me

WTF brother? Are you two typing side by side or what? :P

[Nikitaras]

Damn, no more typing with me

WTF brother? Are you two typing side by side or what? :P

Actually I'm typing και ο Τουρκος μου τραβαι πιπα rofl