36 Killed in Train Blast Near Chechnya

[Seraphim]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031205/ap_on_re_eu/russia_explosion&cid=518&ncid=716


By SERGEI VENYAVSKY, Associated Press Writer

ROSTOV-ON-DON, Russia - A bomb ripped through a commuter train near Chechnya (news - web sites) during rush hour on Friday, killing 36 people and wounding dozens in what authorities described as an act of terrorism.



The bomb was planted inside the train's second car, said Maj. Gen. Nikolai Lityuk of the Emergency Situations Ministry. Lityuk said authorities are investigating the possibility that suicide bombers orchestrated the attack.


Authorities were investigating the blast as a terror attack, Vladimir Rudyak, a spokesman for the prosecutor's office in the region, said, although he didn't single out any groups. He described the force of the blast as equivalent to 22 pounds of TNT.


In Moscow, Prosecutor General's office spokeswoman Natalia Vishnyakova said that detectives were investigating many scenarios, including the possibility that the bombing was linked to parliamentary elections scheduled for Sunday.


Many of the dead were thrown from the train. Scores of others suffered injuries, Emergency Ministry spokesman Andrei Somishchenko said.


The bombing occurred at around 8 a.m. and seemed calculated to kill and injure a maximum number of people. The train was traveling between the cities of Mineralnye Vody and Essentuki, Lityuk told reporters. Nobody claimed responsibility.


The force of the explosion toppled the second car onto its side and rescue workers struggled to pull victims from the mounds of shattered glass and other debris, hours after the blast. A small fire broke out in the electrical wiring, hampering rescue efforts.


Six people were killed in two blasts on the same train line in September. No group claimed responsibility for those attacks.


Russia has been hit recently by numerous bombings and suicide attacks, which the government usually blames on rebels from Chechnya.


Russian forces withdrew from the southern Russian republic after a brutal 1994-1996 war that left separatists in charge. They returned in 1999 after Chechnya-based militants invaded a neighboring region and the Kremlin blamed the rebels for apartment-building bombings that killed 300 people.

[16 OBr SpN]

****ers! :(

There will be at least 50 dead. :(
Train mostly carried out-of-town students of the local university to their campus!

[Kingpin]

f***! :(

There will be at least 50 dead. :(
Train mostly carried out-of-town students of the local university to their campus!

How can we stop this? Can i add my 2 cents by killng couple chechens in the hood?

[Roger Rabbit]

You sure that won't just provoke even more attacks?

I once heard a story, don't know the full truth about it. Anyway in the early 20th century the Americans were fighting against Muslims in the Philipines. When the Americans buried the enmy dead they covered them in pig fat or something like that. By Muslim beliefs then this means the dead can't go to heaven and so the attacks on Americans stopped.

Like i said it was a while ago since i heard this, will have a look on the google and see what i can find.

[Kingpin]

You sure that won't just provoke even more attacks?

I once heard a story, don't know the full truth about it. Anyway in the early 20th century the Americans were fighting against Muslims in the Philipines. When the Americans buried the enmy dead they covered them in pig fat or something like that. By Muslim beliefs then this means the dead can't go to heaven and so the attacks on Americans stopped.

Like i said it was a while ago since i heard this, will have a look on the google and see what i can find.

It was offered first time after hostage rescuing in Nord-Ost building.

[16 OBr SpN]

You sure that won't just provoke even more attacks?

I once heard a story, don't know the full truth about it. Anyway in the early 20th century the Americans were fighting against Muslims in the Philipines. When the Americans buried the enmy dead they covered them in pig fat or something like that. By Muslim beliefs then this means the dead can't go to heaven and so the attacks on Americans stopped.

Like i said it was a while ago since i heard this, will have a look on the google and see what i can find.

I think the Israelis do that. Seems that it doesn't work. :(

[16 OBr SpN]

And the British government is giving political asylum to the leaders of those bastards!

Well what can I say - I guess sponsors have to help their loyal servants.

I guess Brits will be french kissing terrorists until some ****er blows himself up in the middle of London. But even then, Vanessa Redgrave will justify his "honorable cause". That's what I call ****ing democracy at its finest!

[Roger Rabbit]

Most Britains know very little about Chechnya. As for British political leaders, well nobody has much respect for them. We even let radical Muslims who preach attacks on the west remain in Britain.

Unfortunately the time when the British political government starts to stop harbouring terrorists will be after a large terror attack in the UK, warnings just aren't enough apparently.

[Hydro]

Yeah, our immigration problem is a ****ing disgrace. Have we kicked that murder preaching **** Abu Hamza out yet? Blair talks big, but by God he can't see the problems right here at home. Illegal asylum seekers are getting in everywhere, it's perfect for some terrorists to slip in under the veil of them.

Our political leaders are fit only for the dogs at the moment.

16 Obr SpN: French kissing terrorists? We are by NO means a terrorist harbouring state, it's just that it's easy for the ****heads to get in thanks to an illegal immigration problem. I just hope that it doesn't take a Sept 11-style attack here to wake everyone up. I'm an active reservist, part of a CCRF (Civil Contingency Reaction Force), to aid in rescue operations in case of a disaster, or to provide support and security in case of terrorist actions. I hope never to be called out in this capacity.

[Kingpin]

http://wwwi.*******.com/images/2003-12-05T123537Z_01_GALAXY-DC-MDF421200_RTRIDSP_2_NEWS-RUSSIA-EXPLOSION-DC.jpg

[Roger Rabbit]

It's going to take a Sept 11 in Britain to wake everybody up. Abu Hamaza A.K.A Captain Hook is still here at large. There are no policies on immigration, well there might as well not be for all the good they are doing. We get warnings every so often about imminant terrorist attacks and the general opinion i see is that people think it is just the government trying to scare the public into supporting the war against terrorism.

I think good ol' Queeny should retake control of the country and become an absolute monach until some decent politicians can be found. Hahaha i managed to write a sentance including "decent" and "politicians" without a negative.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I know many will not believe this but during the Bosain conflict they were training Bosain intelligence operatives in south west scotland, two of them were found observing traffic on the A75 euro route a local farmer phoned the cops who promptly pounced suspecting illegal immigrants theses guys started flashing cards and were then collected at the local police station by some shifty bloke in minivan. We are used to military exercises in this area and the locals do not really get spooked when they see guys with guns, I was also told some of these Bosians got lost in the hills near Thornhill near Dumfries and run into yet again another bemused farmer.

[Pille1234]

I just watched a report about chechnyan terrorists on tv. The news report showed cuttings from chechnyan holy war propaganda videos. They showed a russian helicopter shot down by strelas or a successful attack on a bmp, much dead russian soldiers lying around.
It got even worse when they showed russian soldiers in captivity of those bastards. A terrorist cut a russian soldiers finger off.
This is disgusting, I hope these bastards will get what they deserve!

I'm really angry about that right now. :(

[16 OBr SpN]

16 Obr SpN: French kissing terrorists? We are by NO means a terrorist harbouring state, it's just that it's easy for the ****heads to get in thanks to an illegal immigration problem. I just hope that it doesn't take a Sept 11-style attack here to wake everyone up. I'm an active reservist, part of a CCRF (Civil Contingency Reaction Force), to aid in rescue operations in case of a disaster, or to provide support and security in case of terrorist actions. I hope never to be called out in this capacity.

I'm sorry if I ofended you. I meant not the Britons in general, but your government. You see, British government have been supporting terrorists in Chechnya for long time now. Plus giving political asylum to one of their leader truly indicates that the policy hasn't changed since the end of 1st Chechen war.
Did you see the videotape, where two Britons get decapitated by the chechens? Even after that, British government still talks about "genocide" in Chechnya.
How would you guys feel if Russia, for example, supported IRA?

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Haiw]

How would you guys feel if Russia, for example, supported IRA?
Yea but the Brits haven't leveled Dublin with artillery...
Not that I'm saying the Chechens are the good guys and the Russians the bad guys, but it should be said that neither side in the conflict really has any moral edge on the other one...

[16 OBr SpN]

How would you guys feel if Russia, for example, supported IRA?
Yea but the Brits haven't leveled Dublin with artillery...
Not that I'm saying the Chechens are the good guys and the Russians the bad guys, but it should be said that neither side in the conflict really has any moral edge on the other one...

My point is, the Brits should stay out of it. We're not sticking our nose into your internal affairs, and we expect the same from your side.

But there is a big diference between a government stating its concerns, etc.; and its operatives working in chechnya, providing the terrorists with training, money and intel. You feel where I'm coming from?


Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Haiw]

But how long does the rest of the world have to stand at the sideline because it's 'an internal conflict'? How many deaths should be enough to make it almost a necessity to say 'hey, this is going too far'. The way you put it we could slaughter half the people in the Netherlands without any intervention from foreign countries because 'it's an internal conflict'.
BTW. I don't know anything about (possible) British involvement, and in my opinion the world should just simply get their act together on this subject and finally find out what's being done out their by both sides, and then get together to say what should be done about it.
Because, even though you say it's 'an internal conflict', when there's 100 000+ deaths it looks more like something that shouldn't be allowed to drag on.
(actually, the world should have looked into it and done something years ago, but hey, the world sucks :| )

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Chechnya appears to be going the same way as israel-palestine. Neither side willing to compromise, violence begetting violence. No end in sight.

[IDFM203]

Chechnya appears to be going the same way as israel-palestine. Neither side willing to compromise, violence begetting violence. No end in sight.Except for two major differences.

A:Israel made big concrete efforts to compromise when in the Oslo process it gave over tons of land to where the Palestinians had full control of around 95 percent of their own lives and Israel was negotiating to give over more. So Israel had and was big time willing to compromise even more!!!

B: the other big difference is the loss of lives. Chechnya/Russia conflict has seen over a 100,000 killed by fighting, where the Israeli/ Palestinian conflict has seen less then 4000 on both sides killed combined. Remember, Israel faced the same or worse terrorists actions and threats on a daily basis then Russia faced but yet you can judge for yourselves the different casualty rates as to how these two conflicts are drastically different

As to this violence begets violence well that’s sound in principle but not in the reality of the mideast conflict for the fact is that if Israel puts down its weapons and stops defending itself, well Israel will have a hundred times more dead Israelis then it has now.

Just note that it has been Israel’s strong defence in the past year that has dramatically reduced the successful homicide attacks that before occurred almost daily for around two years.(the attempts never stopped by the Palestinians but the success have dramatically been reduced)


I don’t know whose at fault in the Chechnya thing but I do know to compare them is wrong and it’s a non-comparison for the Chechnya/Russia conflict is on a whole other level in terms of violence that it has produced.


Besides the astronomical amount of Chechnynians that Russian forces have killed, I am curious to know what efforts they have made to compromise?? (not meant as a flame, I just honestly don’t know) or for that matter what the other side has done to compromise??

Shalom :D

[Russian Texan]

To 16 OBr Spn:

All of your attempts of trying to explain Europeans about Chechen conflict will never lead to anything, trust me. They will never get it because members of their families were never kidnaped and taken to Chechnya to be used as slaves, their "higly prifessional soldiers" that have to have clean toilets and fresh juice for breakfast never had their heads cut off. For them Chechnya is somewhere far away and it's the big guy(Russia) that always starts a fight.
You see, there are a lot of people in the world who for number of reasons (complexes) wish bad or get a happy smile when something bad happens to US or Russia. But when **** hits the fan(WW1 & 2) they come crying to bail them out. The thing is that both US and Russia are the only places with enough natural resources and production base that can say screw everyone, built a wall around themselves and live happily ever after. And I'm a huge believer that Russia should retreat to isolationism. Look at US, it saw some of its best years during isolationism period. Russia sits on 14% of planet Earth's territory and 40% of its natural resources - it's the world that needs Russia and not the other way...

For all of the Chechen symphatizers I can say only one thing: if you are so humanitarian, go overthere and make a difference. Help poor Chechens, try to teach them european values, just don't forget about your humanitarian beliefs when your body parts will be getting cut off so your families be much hastier in paying ransom money. It amazes me how double faced humanists can be:" Oh those poor Chechens are suffering from genocide but we can't go there and help them because we are afraid of them".
What I don't understand is that if UK and others are so concerned with the well being of Chechens, why don't they grant them citizenships and invite them over?
Basically what I'm trying to say Spetsnaz, is - Don't waist your time on trying to explain something in what they don't want to believe.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

IDFM203, the comparison was in general, otherwise I would have said 'is exactly like' rather than 'appears to be going the same way'.
Yes both sides have compromised, but as the violence continues it would appear that more is needed. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not judging either side and being an outsider I have little understanding of the details of each sides grievances and therefore no solutions to offer. However, that doesn't stop me from hoping that one day sooner rather than later both party's can sort out their differences and move on.

And yeah, obviously if Israel laid down her arms she would cease to exist about five minutes later. So thats never going to be an option.

Russian Texan wrote

They will never get it because members of their families were never kidnaped and taken to Chechnya to be used as slaves, their "higly prifessional soldiers" that have to have clean toilets and fresh juice for breakfast never had their heads cut off.

By that comment are you inferring that Europeans have no concept of terrorism?, do you believe its more professional to lower your moral standards to the level of your adversary's?, ie 'they' crucify/decapitate our guys so 'we' will tear their guys apart between two BTRs or throw them out of a helo on the way back to base?.

If thats the case then you're right, I
don't want to believe

[Haiw]

Russian Texan I'm not sympathizing with the Chechens, I'm just saying that both sides are playing pretty dirty in that war, and sadly it seems that a lot of civilians have been paying the price of it so far...

[GazB]

"A:Israel made big concrete efforts to compromise when in the Oslo process it gave over tons of land to where the Palestinians had full control of around 95 percent of their own lives and Israel was negotiating to give over more. So Israel had and was big time willing to compromise even more!!!"

And has Israel given the Palestinians all the land they had and wanted and gave them autonomy and had the palestinians attacked a nearby country trying to take that as well?

At the end of the first war in chechnia they basically got everything they wanted. The result was they attacked their neighbour, which happened to be part of Russia in an attempt to spread "sharia law".

"Chechnya/Russia conflict has seen over a 100,000 killed by fighting, where the Israeli/ Palestinian conflict has seen less then 4000 on both sides killed combined. "

Yes, there is a big difference between an occupation and two full scale invasions between two forces that are comparably equipped and trained. The chechens lacked airpower and a lot of heavy weapons, but they tended to be fully trained ex conscripts, whereas the Russians have a stupid tradition of throwing green troops into combat to temper them like they were making steel... sometimes it works but often it doesn't.

This is not a war between chechens and Russians, it is a war between chechens and russians against chechens and religious fanatics and various organisations in the west.

[Javehn]

Well , GazB , on this one i will disagree with you . I don't want know to begin write what Israel did or didn't for Palestinians , becose it will take pages . The roots of those fights are different , the fighting itself were different . I don't want to right that you are wrong , but that's not the theme here . The theme here , about terror acts . Even if someone consider it a terror acts , and some other consider this as a freedom fighting or whatever , there is just one solution against this.

There is one way to fight terror acts , whether you in Israel , in Russia , in Iraq , or in the dark side of the moon . And the war on terror goes everything against "win heart and minds" principle , for all of peace loving pacifist human right "fighters" .

That terrible what happend there with the train . It happened jus before Russian elections , to give Russian people message - no matter who you will choose , we will be your problem . The horrable thing is ,that acctually some people will try to use it as a boost for they political support ( LDPR - Jerenovski for instance ) .

[IDFM203]

Both conflicts are not comparable for so many differences but I don’t want to get into all of them…..I am however just going to answer to what you wrote.


"A:Israel made big concrete efforts to compromise when in the Oslo process it gave over tons of land to where the Palestinians had full control of around 95 percent of their own lives and Israel was negotiating to give over more. So Israel had and was big time willing to compromise even more!!!"

And has Israel given the Palestinians all the land they had and wanted and gave them autonomy and had the palestinians attacked a nearby country trying to take that as well? . yes, they were given full autonomy of their lives and yet they never stopped attacking Israel!!! Israel has not given the Palestinians the whole Israel as to that’s what they really want!!! Israel gave them every town and city that they lived in to where they had full autonomy of over 95 percent of their lives and Barak was about to give much more, but yet the killings by the Palestinians never stopped and instead of negotiating with Barak for that more land that he offered they started a war!!

Israel did compromise and was willing to do more, at the same time it can not be asked to voluntary commit national suicide by giving more land when its clear that a lot on the other side are not interested in real peace.


At the end of the first war in chechnia they basically got everything they wanted. The result was they attacked their neighbour, which happened to be part of Russia in an attempt to spread "sharia law".. ok I don’t know, what do you mean they got everything they wanted??? They become independent??? Is that what they wanted and is that what they got???? If they got all that then whey did they continue to fight????

I really don’t know too much about the Chechnya conflict so I would love to learn more here….


"Chechnya/Russia conflict has seen over a 100,000 killed by fighting, where the Israeli/ Palestinian conflict has seen less then 4000 on both sides killed combined. "

Yes, there is a big difference between an occupation and two full-scale invasions between two forces that are comparably equipped and trained. The chechens lacked airpower and a lot of heavy weapons, but they tended to be fully trained ex conscripts, whereas the Russians have a stupid tradition of throwing green troops into combat to temper them like they were making steel... sometimes it works but often it doesn't. . yeah your right there is a big difference by Israel’s no choice of a occupation and a conflict that has seen 4000 killed combined for both sides, while the Russian/Chechnyain one has killed over 100,000.!! I mean what the Russians did in grozny alone was almost unparalleled in the past 20 years (not saying right or wrong just talking about the amount of deaths)

Here is where I am confused a bit. You say on one hand that both the Russians and the Chechnya’s were both comparably fully equipped, but yet at the same time you say that the Chechnya’s lacked air power and a lot of heavy weapons. So they were not comparably equipped, not even close!!!!


You say the west is involved, I am just curious if you can elaborate on that.......

P.S. I am just curious, were you born in Russia or in New Zealand to Russian parents???

Shalom :D

[Russian Texan]

IDFM203

GazB is one of the very few people on this board who, unlike you, is able to present facts or provide analysis without emotions and national bias.
And just because he doesn't agree with Israel being"da ****" or their equipment/military being "all that and even more", it doesn't give you right to attack him.

As for equpment parity in Chechnya, if you knew anything about that conflict, you'd see that quite often chechens had superior equipment to Russian forces. What is the most important thing on the battlefield? Communication is, because without it superior firepower is useless. Chechens had much better com equipment and were able to jam, interfire and call artillery fire and airstrikes on Russians by Russians. Also Chechnya is an ideal place, topograficaly and geographicaly wise, for a guerilla warfare. For example: once forests become covered with leaves, how much use is airpower? I guess as much as in Vietnam...
Not to mention such things as NV and GPS equipment, latest russian weaponary that even russians didn't have and so on. So you see everything is relative. But you are right these conflicts are different: if Israel gives Palestine what they want - terror will stop, and it is not the case, as was demonstrated after First Chechen war, in Russian conflict.

[IDFM203]

IDFM203

GazB is one of the very few people on this board who, unlike you, is able to present facts or provide analysis without emotions and national bias. First of all. Everyone on this board has their bias, and while that is true, not automatically is everyone wrong as well. so yes I have bias to the nation that I served in as does everyone else, but I am not blind as well!!!

I make my case on intellectual arguments and facts and not on emotions. If it was purely on emotions then you would have a point but it is not!!!

As for GazB well considering that most of his posts are in stanch defence of Russia or all things Russian no matter what well I can draw my own conclusions as to his bias as much as anyone else for its pretty transparent.


And just because he doesn't agree with Israel being"da ****" or their equipment/military being "all that and even more", it doesn't give you right to attack him. whoa slow down there, where did I attack him???? Why are you even making this personal when I did not??? I am just questioning some of the things in his post as per normal dialogue and disagreement. I wasn’t overtly emotional and nowhere near as emotional as you have now become.

I never said Israel was “Da ****” nor have I insinuated it. I simply reject any comparison to the Russian/Chechnya conflict for they don’t compere!! (Besides many other differences the one that stands out is in the Israel case there is 4000 killed while in the Russian one there is a 100,000 killed) That all I was doing.

I must say however that I do find it strange that you would get so personal here and go to that tired charge that I am “attacking someone” when I am not, for In your words disputing that Israel is “da ****” when it is you that goes ape **** (like your doing to me now) on anyone that says anything critical about your mother Russia or its actions anywhere and that it is YOU that feel that Russia is supreme and defend it to no end. I find it quite laughable that I need to be lectured on my staunch defence of the nation that I served for when you do the same or worse for your motherland.


As for equpment parity in Chechnya, if you knew anything about that conflict, if you had read carefully before just shouting off your mouth you would see that I wrote “I really don’t know too much about the Chechnya conflict so I would love to learn more here….” and I would just add that I would defer to a Russian for more information, that’s why I asked in my P.S. if he was Russian. I want to learn more about your conflict.

I don’t assume to know more about it then any Russian for its not my conflict but it is his and that’s why I want to know if the person giving me the “facts” about this conflict is Russian or someone else.


you'd see that quite often chechens had superior equipment to Russian forces. well perhaps in some cases BUT according to GazB “The chechens lacked airpower and a lot of heavy weapons”



What is the most important thing on the battlefield? Communication is, because without it superior firepower is useless. Chechens had much better com equipment and were able to jam, interfire and call artillery fire and airstrikes on Russians by Russians. Also Chechnya is an ideal place, topograficaly and geographicaly wise, for a guerilla warfare. For example: once forests become covered with leaves, how much use is airpower? I guess as much as in Vietnam...
Not to mention such things as NV and GPS equipment, latest russian weaponary that even russians didn't have and so on. So you see everything is relative. yes and this explains a lot……..thanks for the info…



But you are right these conflicts are different: if Israel gives Palestine what they want - terror will stop, yes if Israel gave them Israel, terror would stop that is indeed correct!!(I don’t think its plausible to expect Israel to commit national suicide but I guess I have come to expect anything from people these days…….)

Anyways I want to get off this Israel thing for the conflicts are not the same and should not be compared.


and it is not the case, as was demonstrated after First Chechen war, in Russian conflict. you still did not answer what I wrote before, so after the first Chechnya war They become independent??? Is that what they wanted and is that what they got???? If they got all that then whey did they continue to fight????

Again I don’t know much other then over 100,000 people have been killed and grozny has seen some of the worst bloodshed in the past ten or 20 years. Other then that, as to what happened, who is right and who is wrong…I don’t know! And any info is much appreicated

Shalom to you :D

[16 OBr SpN]

IDFM203:

Chechens got their independence after an agreement between Russian government and their "president" Aslan Maskhadov.
But by that time, the man was just a formal figure with no power whatsoever. He had his own security force consisting of some 300 soldiers.
The main power was in the hands of warlords. Among them was Shamil Basayev and Abu Hamza and Khattab (both arabs). Their base of operation was in mountainous region of Vedeno. Basayev, along with the several Arabs implemented Shariya Law in Chechnya, because all of them were Wahabbi followers. These warlords had access to major foreign financial aid coming from Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Great Britain and USA. Basically they were becoming the second Taliban, but closer to Russia.

In 1997 Shamil Basayev had sent 250 of his soldiers for training in Afghanistan, although we now know they were being trained in Pakistani Peshawar. Later they were transported to Kandahar and Shahjoi in Afghanistan, where some of them personally met with Bin Laden, Mullah Omar, and Prince Turqi Al-Faysal (ex-director of Saudi Intelligence Service), and some people from CIA, and American company UNOCAL.

It was all a preparation for what they thought would be creation of "pure Islamic state" from Afghanistan all the way to Black Sea. But it was all bull**** - main reason was very simple - money. Does Kaspian oil ring a bell?

They knew that as long as Russia is there, their plans will not succeed, so they decided to further destabilize the region. First they blew up apartment buildings in Moscow and went into Daghestan hoping for "Muslim unity against infidels", but they were dead wrong.
That's how the Second Chechen war started.

It's a very brief information that I felt I could share with you. This is not even the 1% of the whole picture.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Russian Texan]

IDFM203

Well, I guess it is one of the drawbacks of the online forums: it is hard to pick up some ones intonation/tone of voice and that does make a difference. So let me clarify some things:

#1 I have missinterpreted the tone of your post.

#2 You are right about being bias but some are more than others. And I do believe that an educated person armed with facts that is located in a country that has no agenda in the region or has nothing to gain from an issue can be more objective than the rest.

#3 Statement about israel being "da ****" is my cummulative perception of your previous posts.

#4 On one hand you say that you don't know much about the conflict and its participants but at the same time you make plenty of assumptious statements regarding those issues. Some things just don't add up...

#5 I do agree with you that those conflicts can't be compared in any way, shape or form. Different agendas, level of opposition skill, tactics, geography, equipment, politics, etc...

#6 If, like you say, you'd like to learn more about the conflict then I would recomend reading through 16 OBr SpN posts
But here is twhat I think about it:


The first Chechen war started because of the money (it is too difficult to explain to someone who is not familiar with russian politics of '90s and things like "oligarhs", "elczin family", "military mafia", "kremlin's mafia", etc.) It was much more complicated than what you might have heard or seen in the western media. Basically Chechen republic was spinning out of control since the dissolvement of the USSR. In a matter of a couple of years it became a criminal state which solely depended on money from the various criminal activities. On top of all that there was complete genocide against russian population in Chechnya: people were killed, tortured, literary kicked out of their homes and apartments just because they were russian. However none of that bothered russian government untill chechens decided to stop paying off to corrupt officials and financial intrests of certain companies and individuals were affected. At the same time things in Chechnya got so bad and out of control it became impossible to cover up regardless of the sizes of bribes. For example: there were pension and salary money delivered to Chechnya by the "Menatep" bank which was connected to the "Elzins Family". Later that night a group of heavily armed people blew up the doors of the state bank in Grozny, killed all the guards and disappeared with the money (all of it happened right next to the ministry of internal affairs building). There also were occasions when russian officials were kidnaped or killed while being in Chechnya. To make a long story short Russian government orders its troops to "restore constitutional order" in the republic of Chechnya. What followed is just too difficult to explain and gets my blood boiling. Basically it was the war of mafias where lives of Russian soldiers were betrayed, sold and exchanged for money and political points. You ask any officer in the Russian army and he will tell you that if it was left up to them, Chechnya would be pacified in the matter of days. But when your generals and politicians sell military maps, call signs, radio frequencies, supply routs, minefield locations, time of the attack/operation and exact number of troops/weapons that will take part in it, there is not much you can do... There also were several occasions when cease fires were called, by the russian politicians ofcourse, at the very right time for Chechens, every time going gets tough for them there is cease fire so they can rearm, regroup and heal wounded. What made the situation worse was the fact that a lot of chechens served in the Soviet military and knew all the strenghts, weaknesses and tactics. Anyways when I remember first Chechen war my blood boils, not because of chechen crimes against russians but because of kremlin's against its own people.
The second Chechen war was direct cosequence of the first one. After Russian troops left now independent Chechnya, it became a breeding ground for some of the worst scum this planet has ever known.All of the criminal activities quadrupled, no one was working, multiple warlords emerged, etc. To simply put it - region sled into complete chaos and it was bound to overspil. And it did when chechen religious fanatics "wahhabists" decided to annex neighboring republic of Russian Dagestan through the invasion, only this time Chechens weren't alone, they had their own "coalition" of international mercenaries. Then the history repeated itself although corruption and betrayalls were on the much smaller scale due to the change in leadership (Putin is an honest guy with the good intentions but there is no way one person can control Russia unless its ofcourse Stalin or Ivan the Terrible) Now Russia is dealing with the same situation and type of warfare as US is experincing in Iraq except it is much, much, much, much worse. This is extremely simplified and condensed version of what is going on over there. If you would like to better understand it, you'd have to spend some time studying the history of that region, Russia was having roblems with Chechnya for the last 300 years. A lot of it is chechens mentality: it is shamefull for a real Chechen men work, "Chechen men are born to be warriors not carpenters, bakers and shepards". You can't build a civilized society with that kind of attitude.

[IDFM203]

First to 16 OBr SpN

Thanks for sharing a brief history of your conflict. I don’t know much about it and I can surly appreciate the fact that your there and have a batter grasp of your side and the conflict than I do from miles away. Again thanks for taking the time to explain.

Now to Russian Taxen



“Well, I guess it is one of the drawbacks of the online forums: it is hard to pick up some ones intonation/tone of voice and that does make a difference. So let me clarify some things:
yes I am glad you now recognise that!! not every response to a Russian post is criticism, all I am dong is rejecting the comparisons to the Israeli conflict.


#1 I have missinterpreted the tone of your post. I appreciate you being mature enough to admit that now and not responding with an ugly flame war as I felt you were leading it to.

#2 You are right about being bias but some are more than others. And I do believe that an educated person armed with facts that is located in a country that has no agenda in the region or has nothing to gain from an issue can be more objective than the rest.
True in principle BUT when that educated person has strong emotional or family connections to that country he is defending, well even if he is not there the bias is nonetheless still there.
heck you live in the U.S. But still its clear to all that you have a big bias for Russia.

But again I will be the first to admit, that bias doesn’t mean that there is no turh there.

Its what a person presents and the facts that he brings that needs to be judged and on that alone.

I admit that I am more partial to Israel BUT I don’t mearly rely on that for I bring down analytical and intellectual arguments and reasoning and facts to make my claims. If one disagrees then prove them wrong with the same methods I used. I have no problem with that…its when one gets emotional or personal, well that is not constructive to a discussion and just leads to flame wars.


#3 Statement about israel being "da ****" is my cummulative perception of your previous posts. I can see how you get that perception though I would submit to you that there are a lot of false negative posts about Israel and my responses are a counter to that and perhaps it as a result leads to what you insinuated about me.

Listen I don’t think Israel is perfect and yes it makes mistakes, but I think in the past fifty years it has had to fight to survive against the types of odds it has faced, well it has for the most part been correct in what it has done.

Oh and everyone here has that their country is “da ****” routine. Believe me if I was making that charge I could most certainly label it at you (for Russia) and almost everyone else here.


#4 On one hand you say that you don't know much about the conflict and its participants but at the same time you make plenty of assumptious statements regarding those issues. Some things just don't add up... your grasping for straws here…… there is nothing to add up.. I have been clear all along. All I said was “I don’t know much other then over 100,000 people have been killed and grozny has seen some of the worst bloodshed in the past ten or 20 years. Other then that, as to what happened, who is right and who is wrong…I don’t know! And any info is much appreciated” as for what has followed, I only repeated what GazB has said. Nothing more nothing less.

#5 I do agree with you that those conflicts can't be compared in any way, shape or form. Different agendas, level of opposition skill, tactics, geography, equipment, politics, ……and casualty ratios (100,000 to 4000). but yes now all that is not comparable!!

They are two different conflicts entirely


Lastly thanks for you’re your long overview on your conflict it is much appreciated!!!

I still don’t know whose right and whose wrong (for I didn’t hear what the other side has to say) But I definitely hear and comprehend what your saying.

Shalom :D

[GazB]

"yes, they were given full autonomy of their lives and yet they never stopped attacking Israel!!! Israel has not given the Palestinians the whole Israel as to that’s what they really want!!! Israel gave them every town and city that they lived in to where they had full autonomy of over 95 percent of their lives and Barak was about to give much more, but yet the killings by the Palestinians never stopped and instead of negotiating with Barak for that more land that he offered they started a war!!

Israel did compromise and was willing to do more, at the same time it can not be asked to voluntary commit national suicide by giving more land when its clear that a lot on the other side are not interested in real peace. "


So what you are saying is that the Russians shouldn't have given the Chechens all of Chechnia and full autonomy... that was evil. They should have just given them full autonomy in some of their cities and then the chechens would have been happier?

Please. If Israel had given the Palestinians all of Palestine and full autonomy I doubt there would be more than a small minority that would continue to fight (and they would be fighting for revenge and not land).

"They become independent??? Is that what they wanted and is that what they got???? If they got all that then whey did they continue to fight???? "

The suggested reason for invading Dagestan was to spread Sharia Law, though they just raped and pillaged and became very unpopular in a place that once supported them.

"You say on one hand that both the Russians and the Chechnya’s were both comparably fully equipped, but yet at the same time you say that the Chechnya’s lacked air power and a lot of heavy weapons. So they were not comparably equipped, not even close!!!! "

As you mentioned with the casualties heavy weapons and airpower are not that much use in urban fighting. Fighting room to room a Bear bomber isn't much use. The Abundance of RPGs with new model warheads meant that armour wasn't that much use either... the current models have piercing ability of 600mm plus. Attacking the side, rear, and roof of an armoured vehicle not tank is safe from that.

"P.S. I am just curious, were you born in Russia or in New Zealand to Russian parents??? "

I have no relatives who are Russian. I am a 6th generation New Zealander, my name is Welsh, but most of my ancestors were Scottish, though there is Irish and English blood there too.

"And just because he doesn't agree with Israel being"da ****" or their equipment/military being "all that and even more", it doesn't give you right to attack him. "

Actually I have huge respect for the Israelis and their weapons and equipment and their ability to use said equipment. I just don't have the need to defend them at all costs... but I can understand for self defence and out of habit having to do that and I don't blame anyone for that... I am safe on the other sid eof the planet tucked away comfortable from a lot of the pain and hurt in the world and I recognise how lucky I am. It is easy to be less biased when you have nothing at stake and nothing to lose. (Doesn't mean I am always right either...)

"If they got all that then whey did they continue to fight???? "

Because they were largely mafia types that wanted to operate in the open. If it was really about Chechen independance why would any chechen help the Russians? It is about drugs, oil and religion... spreading and making money out of.

"Anyways I want to get off this Israel thing for the conflicts are not the same and should not be compared. "

I fully agree.

"well perhaps in some cases BUT according to GazB “The chechens lacked airpower and a lot of heavy weapons” "

According to some stories I have read written by soldier who were there, part of the outside support from religious extremists and western powers included modern night vision devices and other equipment the Russians would love to have on full scale issue. There didn't seem to be a cost issue for the rebels.

"As for GazB well considering that most of his posts are in stanch defence of Russia or all things Russian no matter what well I can draw my own conclusions as to his bias as much as anyone else for its pretty transparent. "

There is a lot of ignorance about Russian equipment and politics.

"heck you live in the U.S. But still its clear to all that you have a big bias for Russia."

Is that bias or understanding? You admit your ignorance of what happened in Chechnia clouded your judgement. Are you suggesting that Russian Texan is biased... therefore anything he writes can't be trusted surely? How about an even closer source of 16 OBr SpN. He has killed chechens in that war and has probably lost plenty of friends and many good men that he knew to the fighting. Does that mean everything he says is rubbish... bias Russian propaganda?

The secret is balance. If I am chatting to an american and they say "I don't care what the facts are America is not to blame". Is this person a good unbiased source?

Just flicking through Russian Texans posts where he admits corruption and double dealing inside the policital structure of Russian government. He is not a blind flag waver. Looking through 16 OBr SpN's posts he mentions the bad things both sides did and lays blame for many things on each side. Not a blind flag waver either. Reread your posts. Not for where you say something nice about Russia, but where you admit mistake or weakness of Israel. When was it Israels fault? If you look into your heart and all you can cme up with is things like "we didn't kill Arafat when we had the chance in the 80s" or "we didn't bomb them enough" or "we are just too nice for our own good" or "It isn't our fault that the world hates jews" then you lose credibility in that you will never admit Israel is wrong at anything.

[Kingpin]

Good discussion here. Sorry, don't have much time to read all posts.

Only can add my .02: we gave them full autonomy but they wished to have more. First of all they wished to live using us as slaves, source of money and free goods. Second they wished to create their own empire on Caucasus which should include all Caucasian nationalities - that was purpose of Basayev raid to Dagestan in 1999 - he planned to claim part of mountain Dagestan as independent emirate.

[IDFM203]

"yes, they were given full autonomy of their lives and yet they never stopped attacking Israel!!! Israel has not given the Palestinians the whole Israel as to that’s what they really want!!! Israel gave them every town and city that they lived in to where they had full autonomy of over 95 percent of their lives and Barak was about to give much more, but yet the killings by the Palestinians never stopped and instead of negotiating with Barak for that more land that he offered they started a war!!
Israel did compromise and was willing to do more, at the same time it can not be asked to voluntary commit national suicide by giving more land when its clear that a lot on the other side are not interested in real peace. "

So what you are saying is that the Russians shouldn't have given the Chechens all of Chechnia and full autonomy.. no I never said anything of that nature….. all I asked was what the Chechnya’s got???

I brought the Israel thing just to counter your false insinuations that Israel did not compromise and that they weren’t willing to do more for they did and they were willing to do more.

that had nothing to do with whether the russains or the chechnyans compromised or not or what they should or shouldt have gotten.


that was evil. where did you get that from??? I never said one was right or that one was wrong or that one was evil or not….boy you also are reading waaay too much into this :roll:


They should have just given them full autonomy in some of their cities and then the chechens would have been happier? I don’t know…. again did they want full independence and did the Russians give them that??? That’s is all that I have been asking.


Please. If Israel had given the Palestinians all of Palestine and full autonomy I doubt there would be more than a small minority that would continue to fight (and they would be fighting for revenge and not land). YOU can doubt whatever you want BUT the fact is that Israel gave them 95 percent autonomy of their own lives and yet the killings never stopped and Israel was about to give them more land but they responded by starting a war.

Second fact is that if Israel pulls back to the 1967 borders, there would still be a large (not a minority as you put it) percentage be it of Muslim fanatics or Palestinians that claim “their right of return” that would still be fighting for the rest of Israel.
In a sense pulling back and with that harsh reality, Israel would be close to voluntary committing national suicide.

I guess just like you ask me to defer to the Russians here or you about Chechnya for they know more about it, the same attitude should be to me as well about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict for its obvious I know more about it then you or them.


"P.S. I am just curious, were you born in Russia or in New Zealand to Russian parents??? "

I have no relatives who are Russian. I am a 6th generation New Zealander, my name is Welsh, but most of my ancestors were Scottish, though there is Irish and English blood there too. I guess I believe you although your constant and passionate defence for everything Russian and all its actions leads me to wonder……but hey you say your that so I believe you, I just find your constant and passionate defence to be quite curious indeed :roll:


Actually I have huge respect for the Israelis and their weapons and equipment and their ability to use said equipment. I just don't have the need to defend them at all costs... but I can understand for self defence and out of habit having to do that and I don't blame anyone for that... I am safe on the other sid eof the planet tucked away comfortable from a lot of the pain and hurt in the world and I recognise how lucky I am. It is easy to be less biased when you have nothing at stake and nothing to lose. (Doesn't mean I am always right either...) well said!!! (Though one point, I can understand why YOU don’t feel the need to defend Israel at all costs, though with me and my fellow citizens in harms way on a daily basis, I am sure you can understand my need to do so)


"Anyways I want to get off this Israel thing for the conflicts are not the same and should not be compared. "

I fully agree. yes I have been trying to do that for a while……lets get off it for they are not comparable for many reasons.

Also lets stop talking about Israel in this thread for this is a Russian/Chechnya thread and there are tons of other threads that deal with Israel /Palestinians (I only brought it up AFTER someone else mentoned it as a comparison)


"As for GazB well considering that most of his posts are in stanch defence of Russia or all things Russian no matter what well I can draw my own conclusions as to his bias as much as anyone else for its pretty transparent. "

There is a lot of ignorance about Russian equipment and politics. true, but your passionate defence for everything Russian is quite curious to say the least.........


"heck you live in the U.S. But still its clear to all that you have a big bias for Russia."

Is that bias or understanding? no it’s bias and understanding as I wrote before “But again I will be the first to admit, that bias doesn’t mean that there is no truth there. Its what a person presents and the facts that he brings that needs to be judged and on that alone.
I admit that I am more partial to Israel BUT I don’t merely rely on that for I bring down analytical and intellectual arguments and reasoning and facts to make my claims. If one disagrees then prove them wrong with the same methods I used. I have no problem with that…its when one gets emotional or personal, well that is not constructive to a discussion and just leads to flame wars”

Remember I only wrote that in response to his claim of my bias as to somehow falsely insinuate that what I say has no merit.


You admit your ignorance of what happened in Chechnia clouded your judgement. yes I admitted ignorance about Chechnya, but when did I judge??? When for that manner did I admit that it clouded anything for I never made anything to even cloud……


Are you suggesting that Russian Texan is biased... therefore anything he writes can't be trusted surely? No, read the response before the last one.


How about an even closer source of 16 OBr SpN. He has killed chechens in that war and has probably lost plenty of friends and many good men that he knew to the fighting. Does that mean everything he says is rubbish... bias Russian propaganda? geez again what passionate defence you have… :roll:
Again read what I wrote to 16 Obr SpN ….here I repeat..” Thanks for sharing a brief history of your conflict. I don’t know much about it and I can surly appreciate the fact that your there and have a batter grasp of your side and the conflict than I do from miles away. Again thanks for taking the time to explain.”

Again its pretty clear that your tone and attitude towards me is a bit unwarranted!!! :roll:


The secret is balance as for balance, that I don’t have ..again I repeat “I still don’t know whose right and whose wrong (for I didn’t hear what the other side has to say) But I definitely hear and comprehend what your saying.” You see no judgments or any accusations just I simply haven’t heard the balance (the other side) view……….But I have clearly heard what you guys have said and it is indeed very interesting.


Just flicking through Russian Texans posts where he admits corruption and double dealing inside the policital structure of Russian government. He is not a blind flag waver. Looking through 16 OBr SpN's posts he mentions the bad things both sides did and lays blame for many things on each side. Not a blind flag waver either well I have to respectively disagree with your charactersations (sp?)of those two as well as you, for you do come off as very objective flag wavers in most of your postings.(again not saying that what you say is wrong but you don’t come off at all as non objective….there is a feeling of blind patriotism....you see that charge works both ways)


but where you admit mistake or weakness of Israel. When was it Israels fault? If you look into your heart and all you can cme up with is things like "we didn't kill Arafat when we had the chance in the 80s" or "we didn't bomb them enough" or "we are just too nice for our own good" or "It isn't our fault that the world hates jews" then you lose credibility in that you will never admit Israel is wrong at anything. where did all this come from.,..wow!!! Again I repeat “Listen I don’t think Israel is perfect and yes it makes mistakes, but I think in the past fifty years it has had to fight to survive against the types of odds it has faced, well it has for the most part been correct in what it has done.” Now I am not going to list all its success and all its failures. I think that sums it up quite correctly!!

In general, did Israel make mistakes, yes!! Is Israel perfect NO!! But in general it has been correct in what it has done in order to survive especially with the kind of odds that it has faced. If you disagree then point it out and argue it out.(although I ask to do it on another thread) I have no problem with that.


Lastly thanks to you as well for explaining the Russian Chechnya conflict to me :D


Shalom :D

[Javehn]

Holly crap , what is going on here ? I lave that thread for couple of days , and look what happends ..... :)

Just couple of word : The Israeli - Palestinian conflict on his base is also political game , even if much much more simpler then Russian - Chechnya conflict.
I hear thousand and one reasons for chechen conflict , some of them 16 orb spn menchioned , some of them not . Both cannot be discusted without even proper understanding of the roots . Just a little routs about Oslo proccess , when palestinians get authonomy on they territories , and managed to **** it up . http://www.heritage.org/Research/MiddleEast/em490.cfm

And on this i would like to rap it up allready . How always it comes to this discussion ? Strange . :roll:

Ok , now back to Russia . With all do respect to Russian people , Russian have they way to interpreat Democracy . The fact that Russian state for it's history haven't had a real democracy. The Russian menthalitet is much different then europian and most defenetly American ( fact is that on many countries russian communities prefer to live in type of "Ghetos" ) . That's why when USSR have started to collapse , lot of people so in that chance in seace control over some financial establishments , different foundations , Government , and so on and son on . Soon , they started to fight with each other over the assets - something like puppet with millions of attached strings , and everyone pulling to it's dirrection . Basicly "those peoples " tared Russian appart . Chechen conflict was the result of one of those fightings - American companies in close conection with Russian sources - from mafia , and so on . The fact that Chechen people wanted independence was very usefull to Mafia , that was in contact with chechen Mafia , but not good for some government people . And so on , and so on , without an end .

At last , some pulling side prevail , and Hasavourt understandings been signed up between Russia and Chechnya , allow them partial independence . Until non- stoping attacks on Dagestan borders in 1998 (? 1998 , right ? ). If Dagestan would go independance with Chechnya , Oil would run now on Non -Russian territory . That would go good to Chechen - Dagestan maphia-extremists-nationalists-government-American companies , and bad to some elements in Russian government - elements of Russian army and so on and so on without end .

The fact that so many strings been attached there , that the fact is that even simple Russian officers on the front would selling weapons or information to Chechen rebbel side . And that goes up on the ladder.

[wreck]

This almost goes offtopic if I look at the previous posts on this thread.

Anyway, one quite extraoridinary event took place in this suicide bombing. A 19-year old girl survived the blast which killed majority of the other in her coach. This was the second time this same girl survived a suicide strike in a train, the other occurred some three weeks earlier.

She has got to have a guardian angel, two bomb strikes in her coach and still she escaped with little or no damage woot

[Kingpin]

This almost goes offtopic if I look at the previous posts on this thread.

Anyway, one quite extraoridinary event took place in this suicide bombing. A 19-year old girl survived the blast which killed majority of the other in her coach. This was the second time this same girl survived a suicide strike in a train, the other occurred some three weeks earlier.

She has got to have a guardian angel, two bomb strikes in her coach and still she escaped with little or no damage woot

3 month not 3 weeks. It was the same train and the same people. Students.