APS videos

[Undo]

Mentioned I had some vids in another thread but can't find that thread now. Anyway, here is a new thread and here are the videos. Just right click and "save target as." These are both Quicktime.

http://simondog.com/FSB/APS-02.mov
http://simondog.com/FSB/APS-05.mov

Enjoy,

[Undo]

We also talked about the PB, so here is some video of that. Also QT.

http://simondog.com/FSB/PB5-02.mov

[Herrmannek]

Do you have more :)

[Undo]

What would you like to see?

Russian only.

[wreck]

What would you like to see?

Russian only.
What do ya have?

Everything with russian gear is good stuff.

[Herrmannek]

Everything you have :), including all small arms(pistols, rifles, hmgs), RPGs, underbarrel GLs, automatic GL ..... :)

[Undo]

Too much to put up. Anything specific? Here is another one.

http://simondog.com/FSB/Bizon-02.mov

[REMOV]

What would you like to see?
Russian only.OC-14 Groza, please.

BTW - this guy firing the Bison SMG uses collimator sight first in his life ("Aim using two eyes!")? ;)

[wreck]

Too much to put up. Anything specific? Here is another one.

http://simondog.com/FSB/Bizon-02.mov
RPO ?

[Undo]

Here is Groza. Very important not to fire left handed. My friend damaged 3 teeth this way...hehe.

RPO? Lol. That will take some time. Maybe next year sometime.

http://simondog.com/FSB/Groza-01.mov

[RomanS]

Remov,

I'm not sure how they use red dot aiming devices in Polland, but as far as I know, it was designed for you to use with both eyes for comfort. This way you dont have to merge the rear site with the front to aim. The red dot stays there

:roll:

This way you have a full field of view, as opose to half with one eye closed.

You might want to read some sort of manual or something like it. It usually comes with Kobra, Reflex etc.

But I just go with common sence, and comfort.
No personal attack here

[Undo]

Remov,

Don't take Permkii too seriously. That is him shooting Bizon, so he was upset at your comment. :P

[RomanS]

Yeah Remov,

no offense here at all

Also in the video, that guy who's telling me to walk and shoot with both eyes is Viktor Kalashnikov himself. The designer of Bizon.

[RomanS]

Here is me, and Viktor Kalashnikov, checking the targets.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/IMG_3703.jpg

[Herrmannek]

Lucky bastards :).

[earl]

What sort of sights are on the Groza? Can you describe them or have any photos? I can only find side photos that don't show the actual sights.

It must not be easy to be accurate with such a short distance between sights?

Did you guys get video of AN-94? I'd like to hear the 2-round burst shot... it probably just sound like one?

[REMOV]

I'm not sure how they use red dot aiming devices in PollandI know how to use a collimator sight trust me. But the shooter had a little problem with it, so that's why I notice the piece of advice form unknown voice as a little funny ;)

BTW - Poland, only one L (or Польша for you) ;)

[perdurabo]

**** i can only hear i have voice and no vision:/ my viever can't find proper decompresor

[REMOV]

Here is Groza.Thanks a lot. Any other movies? ;)

[REMOV]

What sort of sights are on the Groza?9mm model OT-14-4 has iron sights with four sets 50/100/150/200m.

It must not be easy to be accurate with such a short distance between sights?Well despite of GazB brochure suggestions the maximum range of OC-14 is about 200m, the 9mm x 39 ballistic are high trajectory (at 150m trajectory peak(*) is ca. 75cm). The Groza is in fact something like a large submachinegun.

(*) Hmm... I don't know the proper ballistic term - this is the higher point of the bullet trajectory at a given distance.

[Undo]

Lots of videos. Again, let me know what you want to see.

Groza has flip-up peep site and regular iron sights, all in the carry handle. I wanted to like it, but I didn't. No good place for your left hand and sights too close together.

I think 9X39 is great. VAL is my favorite, but 9A91 isn't bad.

http://simondog.com/FSB/9A91-05.mov

[GazB]

This is a great thread.

Do you have any videos of the impact of 40mm grenades from the GP-25/-30 and/or 30mm grenades of the AGS-17?


"Well despite of GazB brochure suggestions the maximum range of OC-14 is about 200m"

16 OBr SpN said on the other thread they he had personally fired weapons using the 9 x 39mm round and had found the effective range to be rather more than 200m. (In fact he mentioned up to 500m in some cases). This is supported as I mentioned before by similar 30 cal whisper cartridges used in the west as well.
With a scope for sniping or red dot sight for close range work the iron sight problems should be solved.

[REMOV]

16 OBr SpN said on the other thread they he had personally fired weapons using the 9 x 39mm round and had found the effective range to be rather more than 200m. It's almost impossible to hit a target using such bullet at 200m (the Groza's creators know this fact, so the sights sets are refected this point).

(In fact he mentioned up to 500m in some cases). In brochures and catalogs the weapons capabilities are always much higher than in reality.

With a scope for sniping or red dot sight for close range work the iron sight problems should be solved.Sure, with a proper indirect fire sight (like mortars have) you can even shooting the AKM at 1500m (maxiumum range of the 7,62mm bullet at 45 degrees is ca. 3000m) ;) But it's not a normal way the assault rifles or SMGs works.

GazB, 9mm x 19 Parabellum maximum range is 1600m, but at 600m brochures said that the bullet has sufficient energy to eliminate a human. You know, what is a ballistic peak of such bullet? And does anyone using the bullet at such ranges? The same is with 9mm x 39 (also pistol round) - the maximum range is 600m (lower than 9mm Para), efficient ca. 400m, REAL ca. 200m (lower than 9mm Para), and muzzle velocity is lower than 9mm Para. It is highly specialized subsonic silenced pistol cartridge (or in fact cartridges - SP-5, SP-6 and PAB-9) designed for special operations.

And YES I read before about silenced bullets (so-called Whispers) - here (for instance): http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/silcart.html

[earl]

It's not a pistol cartridge, it's a 7.62x39 casing necked up to 9mm.

http://www.club.guns.ru/images/convention/12-1.jpg

I asked 16 OBr SpN about the effectiveness of the VSS, and he said daytime 400m, night 300m, and he made a successful shot at nearly 500m.

I understand the trajectory of these bullets is very curved (heavy bullet, subsonic) compared to standard ammunition. I'm only giving you numbers I got from somebody who does know, and has lots of combat experience with 9x39mm.

some reference info -

BULLET----------------CAL------WEIGHT------MUZ. VEL.----MUZ. ENERGY
9mm Parabellum-----9x19-----7.475 grams--381m/s------543J
Russian M43----------7,62x39--7,9 grams-----710m/s-----1991J
Russian SP(X)--------9x39------16.2 grams---300m/s-----660-780J


And when shooting distance grows up to 100 meters and above, you have to switch back to proven combination of standart subsonic cartridge and silencer. So, for silent operations at the distances of up to 400 meters (440 yards), Soviet engineers developed different loads. These loads - SP-5, SP-6 and, recently, PAB-9 are sub-sonic 9mm cartridges and used in VSS special purpose sniper rifle and AS special purpose assault rifle. Both weapons hawe integrated silencer. Loads itself are based on M43 case (7.62x39mm), re-necked to accept heavy 9 mm bullet. SP-5 was designed as "sniper" load and has Full Metal Jacketed bullet with small steel core and lead behind it. SP-6 was designed as "assault" load with Semi-Jacketed bullet with pointed, hardened steel core exposed at the nose of the bullet. This cartridge, when fired from VSS or AS, is capable of piercing 8mm of steel at 100 meters (110 yards). At 400 meters SP-6 is still capable to pierce 2mm steel plate. Worlds' most common cartridges that used in silenced guns are 9mm NATO and .45ACP. When compared to them, SP-5 series loads gave tvice as much muzzle energy and at least 3 times longer effective range.

Both SP-5 and SP-6 bullets weights approx. 16 gramms (ca. 235 grains). Those loads adopted by spec-op units of Soviet Union Internal Affair Ministry forces and by Soviet Army Spetznaz in 1980s and still in service with different Russian special operations forces.

PAB-9 is recently developed and more cheap version of SP-6. It also has heavier bullet - 17.3 gramms (ca. 255 grains) with hardened steel core.

http://world.guns.ru/ammo/sp-e.htm

[Undo]

GazB,

Yes, I have vids of AGS-17 impacts :D . I have to digitize them. Give me a day or two.

[wreck]

Yes, I have vids of AGS-17 impacts :D . I have to digitize them. Give me a day or two.
Are you going to post them here, if so that's really great.

[Herrmannek]

woot

[GazB]

Remov,

I understand the idea of maximum (ie ballistic) range, sighted range and effective range. I also understand the vaguaries of advertising.

AS a reply please read what Earl posted... (thanks Earl... couldn't have put it better myself).

Earl
The problem is that Remov has a system. That system is rather rigid and describes anything within a certain power range to be an intermediate power cartridge. Anything more powerful is a full power rifle cartridge and anything less powerful he calls a pistol round. The purpose of this system is for his definition of an assault rifle. (ie fire full auto and an intermediate cartridge and you have an assault rifle). The problem is of course that the silenced rounds of the VSS and VAL and even the 7.62 x 39mm 193 grain silenced rounds for AKMs are in the pistol power range. It seems the fact that they are based on rifle rounds (or intermediate cartridges to be more accurate) is apparantly irrelevant as is the fact that these pistol rounds are not used in any pistol I have ever heard of. The other discrepancy is that a .22lr round is certainly used in both pistols and rifles and he classes it as a rifle round even though it is even less powerful than the subsonic rounds in question... go figure. I don't get it either.
(As far as I am concerned anything that uses a round designed for a pistol is either a pistol, a SMG or light carbine. Anything that uses an intermediate rifle round is either a pistol, a battle rifle or an assault rifle or a LMG. Anything that uses a full power rifle round is either a pistol, a battle rifle, an assault rifle, a light machinegun or a machinegun. My personal view is that an assault rifle is a weapon that tries to combine (however successfully) the virtues of a battle rifle and a SMG. Weapons that are used as unit support weapons like a BAR, Chauchat, RPD, RPK, are light machineguns.

Undo
Thanks... I look forward to seeing them. Really appreciate you guys going to this trouble. I am really jealous you guys get to play with such fun toys... :-)

[REMOV]

I understand the idea of maximum (ie ballistic) range, sighted range and effective range. Oh. really? So try to imagine the 9mm OC-14-4 firing at 550m. Got the angle of sight line (a ladder sight from M79 should be helpful)? Tell me how optical sight helps you to shoot at 400m with Groza? ;)

That system is rather rigid and describes anything within a certain power range to be an intermediate power cartridge. Anything more powerful is a full power rifle cartridge and anything less powerful he calls a pistol round. It's not true! The intermediate rounds are just the set of rounds distingused from all rifle cartridges. So that's why there are defined by muzzle energy and velocity as well as bullet shape and last but not least the destination - feeding assault rifle.

The purpose of this system is for his definition of an assault rifle. (ie fire full auto and an intermediate cartridge and you have an assault rifle). Nice try, but it's not my own definition. Second thing is that rounds were specially designed to dedicated type of military weapons - at the very beginning that were assault rifles and self-loading rifles (e.g. SKS) now also some automatic rifles (RPKS, Ultimax) and light machineguns (M249 or Negev).

The problem is of course that the silenced rounds of the VSS and VAL and even the 7.62 x 39mm 193 grain silenced rounds for AKMs are in the pistol power range. It seems the fact that they are based on rifle rounds (or intermediate cartridges to be more accurate) is apparantly irrelevant as is the fact that these pistol rounds are not used in any pistol I have ever heard of. There is a difference in subsonic rifle (or intermediate) round and the new round developed and dedicated only to several SILENCED weapons - somwhere between SMGs and assault rifles.

The second thing is - it doesn't matter that there are or aren't pistols to such round. The energy (range), the shape, even the destination classifies the 9mm x 39 as a pistol round. Yes it was based on the 7,62mm x 39, but thats all.

The other discrepancy is that a .22lr round is certainly used in both pistols and rifles and he classes it as a rifle round even though it is even less powerful than the subsonic rounds in question... go figure. I don't get it either.I really don't know how many times I should wrote always the same thing... .22LR is a normal rile round, despite of its energy. The .600NE is a powerful anti-elefant rifle cartridge, but used only in one model of revolver nowadays. What does it mean?

Anything that uses an intermediate rifle round is either a pistol, a battle rifle or an assault rifle or a LMG.Anything that uses a full power rifle round is either a pistol, a battle rifle, an assault rifle, a light machinegun or a machinegun. My personal view is that an assault rifle is a weapon that tries to combine (however successfully) the virtues of a battle rifle and a SMG. WHAT?! Ekhm... what is a difference between assault rifle and a battle rfile then, when you have got - in your definition (above) - a battle rifle fed by intermediate round and an assault rifle fed by a full power rifle round?! And the second question - show me an example of battle rifle fed by intermediate round? Which - additionaly - don't classify to such definition: "an assault rifle is a weapon that tries to combine (...) the virtues of a battle rifle and a SMG.?" ;) Can you?

[Undo]

I don't know much about ballistics in technical terms, but I assure you that 9X39 as fired from VSS Vintorez is effective at 400m. From personal experience I can add that the trajectory is flat out to at LEAST 200m.

I don't know if this will help or just stir up more debate.

[Undo]

Okay, here is some FUN stuff. A spetznas unit ambushing a van (for "tongues") and an RPG-18 and GP 30. These are big files (15mb and 24 mb)

Enjoy.

http://simondog.com/FSB/Ambush0703.mov

http://simondog.com/FSB/RPG18GP30.mov

[Undo]

Sorry, I had to take Ambush down to fix it. I made two bad errors. I left the other video playing in the background so it had the sound of both and I misspelled Stepanov (stupid, stupid). Anyway, it is uploading now. I will have to take the other one down to fix misspelling also.

Sorry,

[Russian Texan]

I WANT MORE!!!! :D

[Undo]

I hope you appreciate how good a shot he is with the gp 30. Not a big deal to hit a house, but he puts it in same hole as RPG!

16 OBr SpN, you recognize these guys?

[RomanS]

Undo thanks for posting.
Actually the first video me and Undo were involved. We did the filming, as our 2 friends were playing the tongues.
The second video is a little portion from our collection we have. Over 10 different tapes with OMON, SOBR and other units in Chechnya with great details. They were given to us by my close friend who goes there a lot on tours.

Here are some photos of SOBR. We are coming back there soon, to spend way more time in person with the team. We've been working on a project for a while, hopefully they will not be in Chechnya anytime soon. We need them ALIVE.

Enjoy

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/Sobr8.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/Sobr6.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/Sobr4.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/Sobr7.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/Sobr3.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/Sobr5.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/Sobr2.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-9/53088/cobp.jpg

[16 OBr SpN]

I hope you appreciate how good a shot he is with the gp 30. Not a big deal to hit a house, but he puts it in same hole as RPG!

16 OBr SpN, you recognize these guys?

Those sounds are like a music to my ears! :)

As for the soldier, my guess, VV?

[GazB]

"Oh. really? So try to imagine the 9mm OC-14-4 firing at 550m. Got the angle of sight line (a ladder sight from M79 should be helpful)? Tell me how optical sight helps you to shoot at 400m with Groza?"

Rubbish. The M79 has a very curved trajectory. Please keep this in perspective. Even if you have to hold over the target 3m at 500m range that is well within the range of movement on a normal tangent rifle sight.
Look at the optical sight of a PSO-1 scope. Up to the range of 1,000m you dial in the range with the range adjustment drum. Beyond that range you use the lower aiming marks. Two options for catering for an extreme trajectory range of change (in this case it is because of the range to the target).

I know what I am talking about. I have shot across ravines at targets on far away ridges and I know how difficult it is to estimate range. That is one reason why I don't shoot at targets that are further than about 200m away even with a 303 or one of my Mosin Nagant carbines in 7.62 x 54mm. (I have a Model 1938 carbine and a Model 1944 carbine and a model 1891/30 rifle too).

"and last but not least the destination - feeding assault rifle. "

Sorry? Are you saying that a weapon that uses assault rifle rounds is an assault rifle? What about FN Minimis and RPKs and RPDs?

Also regarding bullet shape do you mean a shortened case? If you do could it not be argued that the 7.62 x 51mm is an intermediate cartridge afterall it is merely a shortened .30-06 (7.62 x 63mm).

"dedicated only to several SILENCED weapons - somwhere between SMGs and assault rifles"

So why call it a pistol round? Why not class it with the .22lr as a specialised rifle round... that is what it is afterall.

"classifies the 9mm x 39 as a pistol round. Yes it was based on the 7,62mm x 39, but thats all."

That really makes no sense to me at all. The 9 x 39mm actually has more power than the subsonic 7.62 x 39mm round but one is a pistol cartridge and the other is an assault rifle cartridge. A 12.55gram bullet at 293mps vs a 16gram bullet at 295-285mps. The pistol round is the more powerful?

"The .600NE is a powerful anti-elefant rifle cartridge, but used only in one model of revolver nowadays. What does it mean? "

To me it means that the definition of rifle and pistol round have nothing to do with energy, but intended use of the original round. The 7.62 x 39 was a round developed for the express purpose of making automatic weapons lighter and easier to control on full auto. The 9 x 39 seems to me to be intended to be used within a few hundred metres as a single shot or full auto round for use in light automatic weapons... ie not a pistol round... a light carbine round if you must, in my opinion it is an assault rifle round but you no doubt will disagree with that.

"WHAT?! Ekhm... what is a difference between assault rifle and a battle rfile then, when you have got - in your definition (above) - a battle rifle fed by intermediate round and an assault rifle fed by a full power rifle round?!"

The defintiion is loose to cover unusual weapons. An SKS is a battle rifle... no full auto capability and 10 round fixed mgagzine... ie no close range firepower therefore not trying to be SMG as well as battle rifle. A FN FAL in Argentine service was capable of full auto fire. This leads me to define it as an assault rifle, because it is trying (however successfully) to combine close range firepower with longer range accuracy and power than is possible with a pistol bullet (ie it is not a SMG).

"Can you?"

See SKS above.
The M1 carbine in its early version had no full auto ability either. There is a fine line between intermediate cartridge and pistol round... the M1 carbine round was later used in a pistol too. Also the semi military Ruger Mini 14 is also used by some military and para military orgs. Some Trigger groups you can get for some rifles limits operation to bursts and single shot others just single shot like on the Steyr AUG for civilian and police use.

Undo
Thanks for the input... I would like Remov to know that I was not basing my estimations on the marketting but on what Earl posted above that 16 OBr SpN had said. I am down loading the movies now... thanks... can't wait to have a look at them.

PermskiiOMON
Thanks for the clear and big photos. I especially like the silenced Makarov image... good photos of such weapons are rare. The bottom photo is also good in that you can see down the sight of the weapon. Most photos are from side on so it is hard to guess what it would look like if you were actually firing the weapon yourself. (Note Earl makes some very impressive mods for Russian weapons for computer games like "Ghost Recon" and the Tom Clancy series games and images like that no doubt help him with the modelling too.)

Check out:

http://www.baconbomb.com/vympel/
(for the game Ghost Recon)

and

http://www.baconbomb.com/spetsnazmod/

(for the Tom Clancey game Rogue Spear)

[RomanS]

I worked and have a credit in Ghost Recon
as a Russian Adviser for Uniforms, Units, weapons and locations.

I was proud to be part of it, because my friend Thomas from Red Storm, made the characters in the game like no other product out there.

[earl]

Yeah, he's a step ahead of me - employed in game design :) We hardly had any work to do for Russian uniforms and gear in GR, everything was done! We were really impressed to see Russians well represented finally.

But I have a question, the ambush movie reminded me of this. Why does the PKM to feed from the right and eject shells to the left?

Doesn't this just expose the shooter to more smoke and debris? I know in ****e position, the shooter is far back from the ejection port, but still, i haven't really figured this out.

[GazB]

Just saw the ambush movie... Two things leaped to my mind... Rodney King, and did that cost one camera to make?

"I worked and have a credit in Ghost Recon "

Did you enjoy the experience? Would you consider helping other game designers? My favourite game is OperationFlashpoint and they are working on OpFp2 now. It has three scenarios that are set in the 60s and 70s and one scenario is Vietnam. The other two are stated as central Europe and Africa. I am guessing Congo or Zimbabwe (ie Rhodesia) or perhaps Angola, for the African scenario and the Hungarian uprising or Yugoslavia or Czecholslovakia for the europe scenario... purely guesses on my part though Vietnam is certain.

"Russians well represented finally. "

About time too. :-) I like games where you can try different perspectives... like in half life you can be a soldier, a scientist or a security guard. (In OpFp you can be an American in the first game, an ex Russian spec ops guy busted down to grunt and in the third game you are a resistance fighter... the second game... Red Hammer is my favourite.)

[Herrmannek]

If there gonna be more?...like RPG's hiting "real equipment" target ie. APC, MBT.

[koster]

Those guys in the ambush videos are all VV ?
nice videos, btw.

[RomanS]

The guys in the video is a spetsnaz of B B yes