Pte England's Guilty Plea Rejected

[fantassin]

US soldier forced to change plea


A military judge has rejected the guilty plea entered by US soldier Lyndie England in her trial over the abuse at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

Judge Colonel James Pohl declared a mis-trial and entered a not guilty plea on her behalf.

He said testimony given during the sentencing phase contradicted Pte England's own statements and could not be reconciled.

Pte England's case will be sent back to military authorities to start again.

Images of US soldiers with naked Iraqi prisoners, including Pte England holding a prisoner on a leash, sparked widespread condemnation of US practices in Iraq.

Deal cancelled

Earlier this week she pleaded guilty to seven charges after negotiations with the prosecution in the hope of receiving a lighter sentence.

They included a charge of conspiring with her former boyfriend, Pte Charles Graner, to maltreat detainees.

Two other charges were dropped.

Graner, who has already been jailed over the scandal, said he had ordered Pte England, 22, to perform some of the now infamous acts of abuse.

He said the pictures he took were meant to become a legitimate training aid.

However, Pte England testified at the court martial in Texas that she knew the pictures were taken purely for the amusement of the guards.

Col Pohl said the two statements could not be reconciled, and added: "You can't have a one-person conspiracy."

Col Pohl told the court: "The plea deal is cancelled."

More at:

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/americas/4514839.stm

Published: 2005/05/05 10:42:39 GMT

© BBC MMV

[PeterRJG]

What a complete and utter f*ck up.

[achilles]

Its the Iraqis fault. They should never have posed in such a vulgar and offensive fashion.

[Bluezoo]

At least they are proceeding against her. Sooner or later, there will be a resolution in this case, and justice will be served as swiftly as possible, but what about the French soldiers who committed atrocities and torture in Algeria? Was justice that swift?

He who comes in the court of public opinion must come in clean hands. :lol:



French general on trial over Algeria

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1675000/images/_1677021_genafp300.jpg
General Aussaresses stands by his actions

An ageing French general who admitted torturing and killing Algerians has gone on trial in Paris, accused of acting as an apologist for war crimes.
Paul Aussaresses, 83, wrote a book detailing his role in the death of prisoners during the Algerian war of independence.

There is the duty of keeping your mouth shut - and then there is the duty of bearing witness.

He faces a maximum penalty of five years in jail and a 300,000 franc - 45,000 euro - fine.

General Aussaresses told the court he did not regret writing the book, which reveals how he personally took part in the torture and killing of 24 Algerian prisoners.


"There is the duty of keeping your mouth shut. But that can sometimes serve as a cover for cowardice," he said.
General Aussarresses

"And then there is the duty of bearing witness."

He has previously insisted his actions were not reprisals nor punishments.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1675000/images/_1675992_soldiers150ap.jpg
The Algerian war: Murky period of modern French history

The practice, he said, was sanctioned at the highest level because of the need to extract urgent information from the enemy. Then justice minister Francois Mitterrand was among the top-level politicians who knew and approved of the policy, he has said.

"It was a matter of stopping actions which were being prepared for deeds causing the deaths of my fellow French and Algerian citizens," he said.

Human rights groups in Paris wanted to prosecute General Aussaresses for war crimes, but that was impossible because of a 1968 amnesty relating to the Algerian war. :lol:


General Aussaresses is going to have to explain why he considered torture, kidnapping and summary executions to be normal and part of his military duty
Human Rights League president

Instead they have brought an action under a rarely invoked law that makes it a punishable offence to try to justify war crimes.

"General Aussaresses is going to have to explain why he considered torture, kidnapping and summary executions to be normal and part of his military duty," said the president of France's Human Rights League, Michel Tubiana.

The book, Special Services, Algeria 1955-1957, caused uproar when it came out in May because of its frank and entirely unrepentant tone.

General Aussaresses has since been stripped of his rank and the right to wear his military uniform, and has lost other military honours.

The book's publishers are facing similar charges of justifying war crimes.


I would do it again today if it were against Bin Laden.
General Aussaresses

General Aussaresses has said he will not apologise for actions that took place in an entirely different moral environment.

"I had behind me 15 years of military service, during which I never refused an order. Certainly, officers may have disobeyed - at that point they were told: Get out, you will no longer be an officer," he said on Monday.

In his book he argues he was merely putting on record a historical fact, and speaking on the eve of his trial he repeated his view that torture was an unfortunate necessity.

"I would do it again today if it were against Bin Laden," he said.

From:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1675992.stm

[achilles]

At least they are proceeding against her. Sooner or later, there will be a resolution in this case, and justice will be served as swiftly as possible, but what about the French soldiers who committed atrocities and torture in Algeria? Was justice that swift?

Yeah! And what about Alexander the Great who burnt down Persepolis? The bastard did not live long enough to experience the wrath of Macedonian justice :bash:

Bluezoo i dont suppose you have anything personal against France, yes? ;)

[fantassin]

Monday, 26 November, 2001, 13:53 GMT


That's the date of the BBC's article.


Relevance to this thread ?

[Bluezoo]

France confronts Algeria torture claims

French soldiers in Algiers during the war

By James Coomarasamy in Paris
Fresh allegations have emerged about the use of torture by French troops during the Algerian war.

The torture debate has been reopened by senior officers, one of whom has admitted to executing more than 20 Algerians personally.

It has long been common knowledge that French troops tortured Algerians, but France has never acknowledged it publicly.

General Marcel Bigeard, hero of the battle of Algiers and France's most decorated serviceman, has not escaped criticism.

"My life has been France, my fatherland," he said in an emotional speech following a ceremony in which he awarded medals to younger colleagues.

"So when they treat Bijar as a torturer, I feel sick. But I will die with these words on my lips: I believe in my country."

The French Communist Party, always against the eight-year colonial war, is now sponsoring efforts to raise the question of official repentance in parliament.

"There is a duty for the French people and for the French government to accept the truth, that between 1954 and 1962 members of the French army participated in the torture," says Daniel Sarera, the party's international secretary.

Death threats

The official French history of the Algerian war did speak of torture, but only that carried out by the Algerian side. The French journalists who wrote about the electrodes and the Nazi-style water tortures used by their compatriots faced death threats.

Jacques Duquesne was one of them. He showed me horrific photos of raped Algerian women which he has only now felt able to publish. But as Daniel Sarera acknowledges, even 39 years after the war, this is not easy.

"In the US for example, we have a lot of movies about the Vietnam war and other things," he says.

"But in France, it's a very great effort to accept that at the end of the 50s and beginning of the 60s was a terrible period for the French. We must accept that during this war, it was a terrible thing on the name of the French people."

Boris Vian's 'The Deserter' was one of a string of songs and films critical of the Algerian war, which the French authorities censored for years.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1105000/images/_1108014_chirac150.jpg
Chirac is reluctant to acknowledge torture allegations


Some believed this attitude served to deepen the wounds which the conflict left on the nation, and helped ensure those wounds have never fully healed. And according to Algerian expert Remy Leveau, it's unlikely they will under the current regime.

Chirac's past

"President Chirac was a captain during the war in Algeria. He was doing his military service; he was not a professional officer," he said.

"A lot of people in his generation have been in the same condition, so for them it will be difficult to accept the debate on the way they were engaged in that war."

And, indeed, neither the government, nor the French president, is showing signs of taking up the Communist challenge.

The Prime Minister, Lionel Jospin, has spoken simply of a new historical analysis, while President Jacques Chirac is more categorical.

"I'll never do anything to harm the memory or the honour of the men who fought for France," he told a recent interviewer. "In these sorts of events, the best thing is to stand back and let history do its work."

But history alone will not be enough to bury this deep-rooted taboo. President Chirac's successors will find it increasingly difficult to leave the problem behind.
From:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1108014.stm

Gee, some people should look at the mirror before they pontificate righteousness. :lol:

[Bluezoo]

He who comes in the court of public opinion must come in clean hands.

[fantassin]

Tuesday, 9 January, 2001, 15:07 GMT

That's the date of this other article.

That's getting older and older; Desperate, that's what you are.

[achilles]

He who comes in the court of public opinion must come in clean hands.

Bluezoo two things from me:

First, i love your avatar.

Second, you are doing EXACTLY what some Turks of this forum usually do:
"Hey i am not the only one beating the **** out of my wife, my neighbour is doing so as well"

[fantassin]

He who comes in the court of public opinion must come in clean hands.

Bluezoo two things from me:

First, i love your avatar.

Second, you are doing EXACTLY what some Turks of this forum usually do:
"Hey i am not the only one beating the **** out of my wife, my neighbour is doing so as well"

That's the normal behaviour of your average 6 year-old in the sandpit; "but daaaad, he did it fiiiiiirst".....

That's bluezob for you...there used to be Budanski, now there's bluezob

[Clarsachier]

Hey, lets avoid a difficult issue by whacking France!

:roll:

Fantassin's post wasn't judgemental.


For my POV, I can't help but feel sorry for that little munchkin. Given the peer pressure in the U.S. military - that we all can see at these chat sites.

'She gets to be the scape goat while her officers get off' - disgusting!

:cantbeli:

[achilles]

He who comes in the court of public opinion must come in clean hands.

Bluezoo two things from me:

First, i love your avatar.

Second, you are doing EXACTLY what some Turks of this forum usually do:
"Hey i am not the only one beating the **** out of my wife, my neighbour is doing so as well"

That's the normal behaviour of your average 6 year-old in the sandpit; "but daaaad, he did it fiiiiiirst".....

That's bluezob for you...there used to be Budanski, now there's bluezob

In a nutshell, this thread did not turn out the way bluezoo wanted. :lol:

[von_Moo142]

At least they are proceeding against her. Sooner or later, there will be a resolution in this case, and justice will be served as swiftly as possible, but what about the French soldiers who committed atrocities and torture in Algeria? Was justice that swift?

Yeah! And what about Alexander the Great who burnt down Persepolis? The bastard did not live long enough to experience the wrath of Macedonian justice :bash:


:lol:

Nice!

[fantassin]

In a nutshell, this thread did not turn out the way bluezoo wanted.

In a nutshell, yes.

But I am sure he'll spend most of the coming hours digging out the story of a French farmer who fvcked his goats or something like that.

I think it is his very special form of ******ity in fact....that's how he hits the roof.

[PeterRJG]

Another thread turned to **** from hijacking. WTG guys... :roll:

[fantassin]

Another thread turned to **** from hijacking. WTG guys... :roll:

That's the whole purpose you see; this draws attention somewhere else...

[Bluezoo]

You are only harping on something that is a low point in the war on Iraq. Relevance? Read your article and it is about an American who allegedly tortured detention prisoners. Every country has their down side and this matter on England's case has been posted long ago and reposted again and again. Are you fixated with her or the pictures of naked men?

So, what's your point about this thread when this case is still sub judice?

And since you posted the matter on torture, well well, lo and behold. You also have to face up and dance the tune because some of your soldiers are not that immaculate like England. Nothing personal. But before posting matters such as these, make sure that he who casts the first stone does not dwell in a house made of glass. :lol:

[Clarsachier]

We can still talk about the 'original' subject and ignore the 'grafitti'.

:D

What I wonder is, if the Judge's ruling is really against Pvt. Lindy's interests?

It would seem that to question her judgement - 'she didn't know it was wrong' would be a basis for defence.

[Bluezoo]

He who comes in the court of public opinion must come in clean hands.

Bluezoo two things from me:

First, i love your avatar.

Second, you are doing EXACTLY what some Turks of this forum usually do:
"Hey i am not the only one beating the **** out of my wife, my neighbour is doing so as well"

Dude, it also applies to the French. Nobody has a monopoly of torture. It is a "multi-polar world".
p-)

[Clarsachier]

And since you posted the matter on torture, well well, lo and behold. You also have to face up and dance the tune because some of your soldiers are not that immaculate like England. Nothing personal. But before posting matters such as these, make sure that he who casts the first stone does not dwell in a house made of stone. :lol:[/quote]


I disagree. He doesn't have to discuss something off topic. He didn't make a judgement so he has nothing to defend.

[PeterRJG]

We can still talk about the 'original' subject and ignore the 'grafitti'.

:D

What I wonder is, if the Judge's ruling is really against Pvt. Lindy's interests?

It would seem that to question her judgement - 'she didn't know it was wrong' would be a basis for defence.

What gets me is the complication of a very simple thing. She pled guilty; no-one hed a gun to her head and made her. Convict her bushpig arse of war crimes and have an end to it. Next case please.

Instead, we're about to have a Scott Peterson/Kobe Bryant media circus all custom made for the millions who jack off to forensic intrigue.

[achilles]

But before posting matters such as these, make sure that he who casts the first stone does not dwell in a house made of stone

Was that Mathew 9,27....or Ezekiel 5,12?

[fantassin]

We can still talk about the 'original' subject and ignore the 'grafitti'.

:D

What I wonder is, if the Judge's ruling is really against Pvt. Lindy's interests?

It would seem that to question her judgement - 'she didn't know it was wrong' would be a basis for defence.

Personnaly, I think not; if it is proven she acted under orders, she should be offered more leniency.

That would also mean more heat for her hierarchy and I don't know if it is the order of the day though.

[achilles]

He who comes in the court of public opinion must come in clean hands.

Bluezoo two things from me:

First, i love your avatar.

Second, you are doing EXACTLY what some Turks of this forum usually do:
"Hey i am not the only one beating the **** out of my wife, my neighbour is doing so as well"

Dude, it also applies to the French. Nobody has a monopoly of torture. It is a "multi-polar world".
p-)

Not according to George Bush Jr. p-)

Anyway, noone said that the French are saints. The thing is that you posted something that was completely irrelevant to this thread's theme: that some things go unpunished in the US military ;)

[PeterRJG]

We can still talk about the 'original' subject and ignore the 'grafitti'.

:D

What I wonder is, if the Judge's ruling is really against Pvt. Lindy's interests?

It would seem that to question her judgement - 'she didn't know it was wrong' would be a basis for defence.

Personnaly, I think not; if it is proven she acted under orders, she should be offered more leniency.

That would also mean more heat for her hierarchy and I don't know if it is the order of the day though.

Acted under orders is no excuse. If they accept that as an excuse, it'll be a travesty of law.

Acting under orders didn't save Wilhelm Keitel (among others).

[Clarsachier]

We can still talk about the 'original' subject and ignore the 'grafitti'.

:D

What I wonder is, if the Judge's ruling is really against Pvt. Lindy's interests?

It would seem that to question her judgement - 'she didn't know it was wrong' would be a basis for defence.

Personnaly, I think not; if it is proven she acted under orders, she should be offered more leniency.

That would also mean more heat for her hierarchy and I don't know if it is the order of the day though.


Yes, I wonder what 'the order of the day' is. Hopefully, JAG might be rejecting letting Pvt. Lindy be the scapegoat and go after 'upper management.' IMO this is what should happen.

I have the image of this teeny, probably not too bright little girl, caught up
in momentous events she was not prepared for. And for her, 'peer pressure' could've easily been the difference between life and death.

And given that the 'humiliation' was part of the psy op program, she very likely didn't see much choice nor wrongness in what she was doing.

IMO

[vryhpyammoadded]

A military judge has rejected the guilty plea entered by US soldier Lyndie England in her trial over the abuse at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.
Judge Colonel James Pohl declared a mis-trial and entered a not guilty plea on her behalf.
He said testimony given during the sentencing phase contradicted Pte England's own statements and could not be reconciled.
Pte England's case will be sent back to military authorities to start again.
Great news! I hope that some higher heads will roll now.

[fantassin]

Acting under orders didn't save Wilhelm Keitel (among others)

Very true...but leaving Pte England to face the music on her own if she really had received some form of orders would be ultimately detrimental to the US military I reckon.

[achilles]

Acting under orders didn't save Wilhelm Keitel (among others)

Very true...but leaving Pte England to face the music on her own if she really had received some form of orders would be ultimately detrimental to the US military I reckon.

Those above her were cleared of charges a few days ago, no?

[11F5S]

And given that the 'humiliation' was part of the psy op program, she very likely didn't see much choice nor wrongness in what she was doing.IMO

As I recall she was a clerk and didn't have any business being in the cellblock and having contact with the prisoners to begin with...she knew she was wrong.

I'd bet that Grainer (her boyfriend at the time) figured he has nothing to lose( he's doing 10yrs) and lied at her sentencing hearing to help her.

[ibstolidude]

And given that the 'humiliation' was part of the psy op program, she very likely didn't see much choice nor wrongness in what she was doing.
IMO

it is purely IYO that this is true -
no one with a decent understanding of approach or persuasion would consider this the best tactic to rcv information from a prisoner.

& as 11F5S she has no business doing either.

[Clarsachier]

And given that the 'humiliation' was part of the psy op program, she very likely didn't see much choice nor wrongness in what she was doing.
IMO

it is purely IYO that this is true -
no one with a decent understanding of approach or persuasion would consider this the best tactic to rcv information from a prisoner.

& as 11F5S she has no business doing either.



What I read had to do with her posing with the naked prisoners and then using the pics as blackmale to get info - some kind of psy approach to get info.

Seems from my uninformed POV, valid given the culture and nobody's getting hurt. Was I completely missinformed?

Doesn't matter as far as my point goes, she's a scapegoat for her command chain.

[Clarsachier]

And given that the 'humiliation' was part of the psy op program, she very likely didn't see much choice nor wrongness in what she was doing.IMO

As I recall she was a clerk and didn't have any business being in the cellblock and having contact with the prisoners to begin with...she knew she was wrong.

I'd bet that Grainer (her boyfriend at the time) figured he has nothing to lose( he's doing 10yrs) and lied at her sentencing hearing to help her.


That seems to be a clear insight into her situation - thanks.

[budanski]

...there used to be Budanski, now there's bluezob

there still is a budanski... ;)

[fantassin]

...there used to be Budanski, now there's bluezob

there still is a budanski... ;)


...with multiple accounts starting by B...

[P.UbedaN°1]

Probably another US war criminal who will do minimum or completly avoid jail time...hey, at least they are faking a trial this time !
All the people related to those tortures should be judged. I am sure they could reach the White House with all those torture scandals related to Afghanistan and Iraq.

Good job from the so called *freedom* fighters and *freedom* politicians

[11F5S]

Doesn't matter as far as my point goes, she's a scapegoat for her command chain

Not quite....read the entire news report.


Army Demotes General in Abu Ghraib Scandal

Published - May 06 2005 04:51AM EDT || AP


"WASHINGTON(AP) The Army has offered its last word on holding its generals accountable in the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal, but Congress is going to have the final say.

The Army announced that it demoted Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, whose Army Reserve unit was in charge of the prison compound during the period of abuse. Dropping her in rank to colonel required approval from President Bush, and officials said that he granted it on Thursday.

The Army also said it cleared three other, more senior generals of wrongdoing in the prisoner abuse cases, actions that had been previously reported but not publicly confirmed by the Army.

That means Karpinski is the only general to be disciplined thus far. The demotion means her career in the military, where officers must rise in rank or leave, is effectively over. Messages left at her home in Hilton Head, S.C., and with her attorney were not immediately returned."


More than a dozen other lower-ranking officers, whose names were not released, also received various punishments.

_ Three majors were given letters of reprimand and one of the three also was given an unspecified administrative punishment.

_ Three captains were court-martialed, one captain was given an other-than-honorable discharge from the Army, five captains received letters of reprimand, and one was given an unspecified administrative punishment.

_ Two first lieutenants were court-martialed, another got a letter of reprimand and one was given administrative punishment.

_ One second lieutenant was given an other-than-honorable discharge and another was given a letter of reprimand.

_ Two chief warrant officers were court-martialed.

The Army said other cases involving officers linked to detainee abuse are still open, but it did not say how many.

Complete story:
http://www.rr.com/flash/index.cfm

[Clarsachier]

[quote=Clarsachier]Doesn't matter as far as my point goes, she's a scapegoat for her command chain

Not quite....read the entire news report.


Thanks. Looks like justice is being served. From my POV.

BTW, any take on why JAG didn't accept her plea?

Perhaps, her 'guilty' plea had a few too many strings attached. JAG used an interesting reason for rejecting her plea.

[Clarsachier]

...there used to be Budanski, now there's bluezob

there still is a budanski... ;)


...with multiple accounts starting by B...


It's a Cockroach survival technique

- if one gets squished - there's 10 more to carry on.

[California Joe]

Budanski is cool, infuriating at times, but never boring. He's got a real job and a nearly new beautiful baby girl so I think his time is being spent better elsewhere. That reminds me, we have a Little League practice at 4:00. ****e. p-)

[Clarsachier]

For the record, I was referring to other's whose names begins with 'b'.
Not Budanski.