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Operation Ivy
12-09-2003, 04:44 PM
Well most of us have herd of Michael Wittman a great WWII German Tank Commander but i bet most of you never herd of Lafayette G. Pool, basically he was a Staff Sargent in the army and a Sherman Tank Commander :P

Long post......
This story is about a tank commander who destroyed 258 enemy vehicles, but he never was awarded the Knights Cross. He was never presented to Hitler, he never wore a fancy black uniform with death heads and S.S. runes, and he never commanded a Panther or Tiger. The reason? He was an American GI and he set the above record in a Sherman tank! Contrary to popular belief other countries besides Germany were capable of producing tank aces too.
Staff Sergeant Lafayette G. Pool was typical of some of the fine tankers produced by the U.S. Army during World War II. Pool was born on July 23, 1919, on a farm in Odem, Texas. He graduated from high school in Taft, Texas in 1938. Pool tried to enlist in the Navy. He was turned down due to an eye injury, although his twin brother was accepted. he then enrolled in an all boys Catholic Academy where he graduated as class valedictorian. Afterwards, he enrolled in Texas, A and I College, as an engineering major.

He quit to enlist in the Army on June 13, 1941. He took basic training at San Antonio, Texas, and then was sent to Camp Beauregard, Louisiana, to the newly forming Third Armor Division. Pool joined the Third Battalion, 32nd Armored Regt, when the division was reorganized in January of 1942. He took time out from training to get married to Evelyn Wright in December of 1942.

Pool had been a boxer in college and he joined the division's golden gloves team. He became regional champ in his weight class and was to go to the national meet in Chicago, Illinois in the spring of 1942. He turned down the opportunity because the division had gotten a shipment of new M-4 Sherman Tanks and Pool wanted to start training with his men on the M-4 immediately.

Pool was a tall, lanky 6'3" Texan, who drove his men and himself and trained them rigorously. He always wanted things done right and would not tolerate slipshod methods, whether in maintenance, gunnery, or driving. He demanded the best out of his men and he got it.

The 3rd Bn, 32nd Armor moved to the Desert Training Center near Victorville, California, followed by final training at Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania.

Before sailing to England in September, 1943, Pool was promoted to Staff Sergeant in Company I. He was also given the opportunity to go to OCS, but he turned it down as he was later to turn down a battlefield commission stating "I just want to have one of the best tank crews in the division."
His crew consisted of driver, Wilbert "Baby" Richards, one of the best drivers in the ETO according to Pool; Bert "Schoolboy" Close who was just seventeen years old and was his bow gunner. Given the choice of prison on a manslaughter rap or the Army, Del "Jailbird" Boggs elected to be Pool's loader. Willis "Groundhog" Oller was the gunner. Pool said of Oller "He could shoot the eyebrows off a gnat at 1500 yards." He was very quick and alert. One time near Origny in France it was getting dark when the order came down to halt and coil up for the night. Pool opened his mouth to say "Driver, Halt," but found himself looking down the barrel of a German 88mm in the gloom ahead. He said "Gunner, Fire!" and Oller, without hesitation, holed the enemy gun before its crew could recognize the Sherman Tank.
While in England Pool did some more boxing. In Liverpool in early 1944 he boxed against Joe Louis. It was ment to be an exhibition bout, but Pool got a little too enthusiastic and rapped Louis a few good ones. Louis then put his arm around Pool and said "White man, I'm going to teach you a big lesson." He then proceeded to give Pool a good going over, although there was no knockout.

Pool is what we would call today a "hard charger." He was also inclined to have things his own way. He believed that the quickest way home was to smash the German Army to pieces, and he believed that he was the guy with the crew and the tank that could do it. He made friends easily and also made enemies. He had a quick temper and was not above ignoring orders when they didn't suit him.

Pool landed at Normandy in June, 1944. His battalion fought its first engagement on June 29, 1944 near Villierfossard, northeast of St. Lo.

The loss of Pool's first tank "In The Mood," (all succeeding tanks were called "In The Mood!") was to a Panzerfaust at the village of Les Forges not far from the beach-head. Pool's crew survived and got a new Sherman, and pushed on undauntedly against the Panzers.

Falaise Gap on August 7, 1944, was the big battle and Pool was, as usual, right up front. As the 3d Armored Division was near to closing the ring with the British forces around the Germans, Lt. Col. Walter B. Richardson, commanding task force Y of CCA, 32nd Armored heard Pool say over the radio "Ain't got the heart to kill um," meaning the Germans. The rattle of machinegun fire came over thr radio followed by Pool's Texas drawl "Watch those bastards run, - give it to 'em Close."


Next Part
At Fromentel, Pool's tank headed the task force Y column as usual which closed the gap. During the closing, Pool's second tank was destroied by enemy bombers, which only made Pool more mad at the Germans. Again the crew survived intact. At Colombrier, France, Pool's tank leading the column almost collided with a Panther. The Panther fired twice and missed. Ollier, the gunner, fired a single shot which penetrated the turret and internal explosions blew the turret clean off the hull of the Panther.


At Namur, Belgium, "In The Mood's" crew destroyed sixteen enemy vehicles, including assault guns, self propelled anti-tank guns, plus several armored personnel carriers in one day. At Dison, Belgium, Pool distinguished himself while acting as a platoon leader. He decided to use his own tank to clean out an annoying pocket of resistance on the left flank of the route they were traveling. After finding and destroying six armored personnel carriers Pool discovered that the head of his column had been fired upon by a German Panther. Quickly he ordered his driver to regain the column. Upon arriving upon the scene of the action he spotted the enemy tank, gave a single estimated range to Oller. The gunner fired an A.P. projectile at 1500 yards to destroy the Panther. The column then moved on with Pool again in his customary place in the lead. Although Pool had two tanks knocked out from under him, he had nerves of steel. His crew added confidence from his bearing and as a result they moved as a single unit, like clockwork.

Pool's one problem was that he was claustrophobic and preferred to remain, as much as possible, on the outside of his tank. Col. Richardson said that Pool rode that tank like a "bucking bronco." He was always exposed in the turret or on top of it.

His driver, Richards, shared his commander's condition in that he always drove with his overhead hatch open, having been trapped once with a jammed hatch. Corporal Richards said "Pool hated the Germans and thought he could lick them all. The men would draw straws to see who would lead the spearhead the next day. Pool would just say, 'Ah'm leading this time' and stand there grinning while we cussed him out."
Pool's luck ran out at the town of Munsterbusch, south of Aachen, Germany, on September 19, 1944, while leading the breakthrough through the Westwall. The crew was due to rotate home in a few days for a war bond tour. "In The Mood" was not leading this time but was flank guard for the task force that day. Pool spotted a heavy anti-tank gun hidden in a house. They had a substitute loader that day as Boggs was sent back for a hearing check-up prior to rotating to the states. The new guy shoved a round in the breech of the 76mm gun and jammed it.

Unable to fire, Pool yelled "Back up baby!" as the first shell hit the turret blowing Pool off the tank onto the ground. He landed running and his right leg folded up like an accordion. He quickly gave himself a morphine injection, sat down and tried to cut his shattered leg off with his pocket knife. Meanwhile, a second shell hit the tank well forward as Richards backed the tank up slowly. To Richards, Oller, the loader and Close, there was only the bell sound of the hit, the stench of powder and shower of sparks. Richards didn't know that Pool had been thrown clear of the turret and kept on backing up. Col. Richardson saw "In The Mood" slowly reach a cut bank and, as if in slow motion, topple over, almost upside down.

Oller felt the blood on his leg and knew that he had been wounded. The others were unhurt and all four crawled out of the overturned tank.

Col. Richardson came up to Pool and gave him another shot of morphine. Aid men then reached Pool who was bleeding badly from the splinter wound. They gave him a third shot of morphine. Two of them quickly attended to Oller. Pool cursed the Germans bitterly as the aid men bandaged his wound. As they put him in the litter he twisted suddenly and said, "Somebody take care of my tank."

The war was over for Lafayette G. Pool. He knew that he and his crew could beat the Germans. He proved it so often that his record is almost an unbelievable document of total victory. The amazing score by the Texan and his crew is fully authenticated by the 3d Armored Division.

Pool was twice nominated for the Medal of Honor. The first time the papers were lost,
the second time it was turned down as the higher-ups felt that it was a crew, not an individual effort. He was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross, Silver Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart, French Croix de Guerre with Bronze Star, Belgium Fourragere and Order of St. George Medal.


Pool's career was far from over though, but first he had an ordeal he had to go through with his wounded right leg. After three shots of morphine he awoke nineteen days later in a hospital in Belgium. Due to rain and exposure he contracted double pneumonia. He did not get back to the states until January, 1945. When he was wounded he weighed 196 pounds and when he returned to the United States he weighed 85 pounds! The bone in his leg from the knee to the ankle was gone but his toenail would still grow so doctors hesitated to amputate. Later they amputated it eight inches above the knee at Temple, Texas Army Hospital. He was discharged in June of 1946, and went home with an artificial leg, later to farm and run a gas station. In 1948 he was called back to active duty along with seven other amputees because of their technical skills as specialists.

He returned as a staff sergeant and taught tank mechanics as a master mechanic. After a promotion to Warrant Officer in 1952, he worked as an ordnance inspector. He was classified as "Z.I." (no duty out of zone interior). While at Fort Knox, he was offered the job as technical advisor for the movie "The Tanks Are Coming" (released in 1951). He refused and decided to sue Warner Brothers for one million dollars. He was under contract to Universal Studios for his life's story and he felt that Warner Brothers plagiarized his script. The judge ruled that Warner Brothers had changed the names and scenario in their version enough that it was not an infringement. Pool thought that actor Steve Cochran, in the Warner Brothers version, did a good portrayal of himself, although the name in this movie was changed to "Sgt. Sullivan."

Pool retired from the Army as a Chief Warrant Officer Second Class, at Ft. Sam Houston, Texas on September 19, 1960. Afterwards he went to business college, followed by a job as a preacher for $25.00 a week. He also coached little league

One of his quotes
The most important thing for a tank commander to do is keep his crew alive. The tank crews today have the technology to do what we had to do with our eyes and ears," Pool said. "We did very little fighting at night." He added "I only fought once at night and I never wanted to do it again. Today you have the thermal sighting capability that we didn't have."
All info from here
http://www.3ad.org/wwii_heroes/pool_lafayette/pool_ordnance1.htm

My Grandpa said he met this guiy a long time ago.My grandfather was also a Tank Commander in Europe in WWII :P

Hope you learned something woot

Operation Ivy
12-09-2003, 04:49 PM
Picture
http://www.xbox-connection.com/hostedimages/Lafette.jpg

Sherman Tanks
http://www.xbox-connection.com/hostedimages/Tank21.jpg

hedgehog
12-09-2003, 06:43 PM
Is there any chance that pic of the shermans is from Korea? The centre tank has the new suspension which if I recall correctly was made after WW2. Can someone verify this?

hank
12-09-2003, 07:04 PM
That suspension is called HVSS and it was introduced late during WWII. I have no idea whether this picture is from Korea or WWII - but it is possible that that this picture comes from WWII.

The site I found designates that as M4A3(76)HVSS. I think HVSS stands for Horizontal Volute Suspension System. That was not on the site but I think I remember that right.

Hope that helps.

hank

ogukuo72
12-10-2003, 05:17 AM
This just goes to prove that superior equipment/ machine gun / rifles / tanks / planes is not everything. The human factor is always important. Panthers and Tigers may be far superior tanks, they were increasingly manned by young and experienced crews by 1944. Aces like Wittman were being killed off through attrition.

The armoured arms of the US Army, on the other hand, despite desperate losses in Normandy, were gaining expertise and experience. This allowed them to fight effectively with what they had.

In fact, I'll like to put a counter-intuitive argument across. The Sherman tank may not be better than the Panther or the Tiger, TANK FOR TANK, but it was a more suitable tank than the two for 1944/5.

During the Normandy-Bocage phase, it did not matter if the the US Army had the Panther or the Tiger. Tank losses would have been equally severe because of the kind of terrain the fighting took place. It was bad tank country which presents plenty of opportunity for ambushes. At the point-blank range, even the 75mm gun of the Sherman would have inflicted fatal wounds on a Panther or Sherman. US and UK tank losses were severe primarily because they were trying to wage offensive warfare in excellent defensive terrain.

During the phase after the Normandy breakout, the Shermans and the Cromwells came into their element. With they were more road reliable than either the Panther or the Tiger - particularly the latter as its engines tend to overheat. The longer range of these tanks allowed for great penetrative offensive sweeps, by-passing German defensive points. The Germans, concentrating on quality instead of quantity, never had enough tanks to put up an effective defence and stem the tide of these great tank
armies.

During the Falaise pocket phase, the Sherman was at no great disadvantage because they were in the defence against a German offense. In the defence, particularly when lying in ambush in the lush vegetation of summer, even the 75mm guns of the Shermans could blast holes in German tanks as they roll past. Also, with the reliability, road speeds, and great numbers of the Shermans, the US Army could deliver concentrated blows into the flanks of the German offense. The very bulk, unreliability and short range of the Panthers and Tigers meant that they are vulnerable to ambushes, aerial attacks, and were stuck when the need came to break out.

During the Battle of the Bulge phase, the Sherman was on the defense again, and any account of the battle will show the severe losses suffered by the German Army. Indeed, in the harsh landscape of the Ardennes, the lumbering bulk of a Super Tiger (or Tiger II) become excellent targets for tenacious TD's (both towed and SP forms). Again, even a 75mm Sherman in ambush can be deadly for a German tank at the kind of range in the Ardennes. And using huge, fuel hungry giants like the Tiger and Panther when petrol was precisely the resource the Germans were most desperate for, was sheer folly. Lighter and fast thrusting tanks with longer ranges would have produce better results.

The Shermans experienced the most difficulty when they had to advance against well placed enemy positions in good defensive terrain. As I had argued, even a 75mm Sherman will produce impressive score sheet when it plays defense. As it is, the other big headache in this kind of warfare was German INFANTRY with the excellent Panzerfaust.

Royal
12-10-2003, 05:28 AM
Your comments may hold some water with regard to the T34, but the only reason that Ronsons (Shermans - lights first time, every time) prevailed is that the Allies had a reliable logistics train and could thus supply ammunition and more importantly F&L (POL to the old sweats). That in itself was due the the RAF and USAAF's tactical command of the skies. The vast majority of the Germans supply convoys were destroyed by ground attack missions concentrating on bridges and choke points.

Royal
12-10-2003, 05:34 AM
While I have absolutely no desire to denigrate the acheivments of WO Pool (or his contemporaries), it should be pointed out that his 258 claimed kills included scores of soft skin vehicles, whereas Wittman had over a hundred tank kills.

ogukuo72
12-10-2003, 05:34 AM
I can agree with you on both points, as they don't contradict my points. The Allied command of the air was decisive in many ways, and - yes - the T34 would have been perfect. It had the right combination of armour, gun, reliability, and ease of manufacture, unlike the German monsters.

Va_Dinger
12-11-2003, 05:52 AM
Funny, I remember that as a rule of thumb it took five Shermans to knock out a Tiger or Panther. The Sherman was obsolete by 1942. U.S. Army had to rely on superior numbers, air+artillary support to combat the top of the line German tanks. The Cromwell even more so, very poor tank



During the phase after the Normandy breakout, the Shermans and the Cromwells came into their element.

This is becuase their was no German panzer forces to speak off. Yes, if you need a tank to take a sunday drive across France these two tanks worked fine. Run into enemy tanks and they sucked again. Its as easy as that.

Marmot1
12-14-2003, 10:54 AM
he he and GUESS who KILLED WITTMAN???

hint...check my location.....:-)

Haiw
12-14-2003, 11:32 AM
Wittman was killed by a rocket from a British Typhoon plane...

Operation Ivy
12-14-2003, 11:56 AM
in a field near the road to Caen-Cintheaux, at Gaumesnil, Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed and its entire crew killed. After fighting the remains of Wittmann and his crew were buried beside what was left of their Tiger, without any markings. Until 1983, the destruction of Wittman's Tiger was an mystery even for crews of sSSPzAbt 101. Many sources say that it was destroyed by the "Firefly Ambush", but different units claimed to ambush and destroy Wittmann's Tiger, including those of the either 1st Polish Armoured Division, 4th Canadian Armoured Division (Canadian Shermans supposedly surrounded and shot Wittmann's Tiger to pieces) or 33rd British Independent Armored Brigade. In the memoirs of a former member Mr.F.R of sSSPzAbt 101, official version at the time stated that Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by an airplane bomb. Both presented a picture of Wittmann's Tiger without its turret with the gun barrel placed on the hull which in fact is the picture of SS-Untersturmführer Alfred Günther's Tiger destroyed by an airplane bomb at Evrecy. Along with those two versions, some claims were made that units which were not even present in the area at the time, were responsible for destroying Wittmann's Tiger. Both versions were proven wrong in 1945, by Mr.Serge Varin who found Tiger #007. Mr.Varin was interested in this tank because its turret was teared away from the hull. Mr.Varin examined Wittmann's Tiger and noticed that it was not penetrated by any shells fired at it during the fighting. The only damage to the hull was a big hole in the rear, near the engine deck. further examination Mr.Varin concluded that the impact came from the air. The rocket hit Tiger's rear deck (made of 25mm thick armor), penetrated the air intakes and exploded causing the explosion in the engine compartment and fighting compartment which ignited the stored ammunition. The second explosion instantly killed the entire crew and blew off the turret into the air. Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by a rocket fired from a Royal Air Force Hawker "Typhoon" MkIB - attack aircraft

PAK
12-15-2003, 05:06 PM
Wittman was killed by a rocket from a British Typhoon plane...

I know a different version. It is from: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen3.htm

"Until 1983, the destruction of Wittmann's Tiger was an mystery even for crews of sSSPzAbt 101. Many sources say that it was destroyed by the "Firefly Ambush", but different units claimed to ambush and destroy Wittmann's Tiger, including those of the either 1st Polish Armored Division, 4th Canadian Armored Division (Canadian Shermans supposedly surrounded and shot Wittmann's Tiger to pieces) or 33rd British Independent Armored Brigade. In the memoirs of a former member Mr.F.R of sSSPzAbt 101, official version at the time stated that Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by an airplane bomb. Both presented a picture of Wittmann's Tiger without its turret with the gun barrel placed on the hull which in fact is the picture of SS-Untersturmführer Alfred Günther's Tiger from 3rd Kompanie of sSSPzAbt 101 of destroyed by an airplane bomb at Evrecy. Along with those two versions, some claims were made that units, which were not even present in the area at the time, were responsible for destroying Wittmann's Tiger. In 1945, Mr.Serge Varin found Tiger #007. Mr.Varin was interested in this tank because its turret was teared away from the hull. Mr.Varin examined Wittmann's Tiger and noticed that it was not penetrated by any shells fired at it during the fighting. The only damage to the hull was a big hole in the rear, near the engine deck."

"After further examination Mr.Varin concluded that the impact came from the air. The rocket hit Tiger's rear deck (made of 25mm thick armor), penetrated the air intakes and exploded causing the explosion in the engine compartment and fighting compartment which ignited the stored ammunition. The second explosion instantly killed the entire crew and blew off the turret into the air. According to Varin, Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by a rocket fired from a Royal Air Force Hawker "Typhoon" MkIB - attack aircraft. Typhoons were armed with HE (High-explosive) rockets and took heavy tow of German tanks during the Normandy battles (for example on August 8th of 1944, Typhoons destroyed 135 German tanks and among those Tiger #007).

Finally, it was proven that Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by fire from tanks of "A" Squadron of Northamptonshire Yeomanry. British Firefly crew observed advancing Tigers and opened fire at when Tigers were some 800m away. According to original War Diary of "A" Squadron, at 12:20, 3 Tigers were moving towards the Squadron and were destroyed at 12:40, 12:47 and 12:52 without any losses. After the first Tiger was destroyed at 12:40, second one returned fire but was hit and blew up in a loud explosion. Following that, third Tiger was knocked out after receiving two hits. Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed as second at 12:47 by British Sherman VC "Firefly" commanded by Sergeant Gordon (gunner - Trooper Joe Ekins) from 3rd Platoon, "A" Squadron, 33rd Armored Brigade of 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry. British Sherman VC "Firefly" armed with 17 pounder gun was capable of penetrating Tiger's armor at range of 800m. The force of explosion blew off the turret, which landed upside down away from the hull. Wittmann did not know that British had Firefly in the area and felt confident in attacking their position with his Tigers, otherwise he would take different approach to the whole attack. After Wittmann failed to return from the battle, search for him by the members of the 12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjugend" and his battalion took place during the day and on the night of 8/9th.

Michael Wittmann and his crew was killed in action on August 8th of 1944, at Gaumesnil near Cintheaux and were buried in an unmarked grave. In March of 1983, the unmarked field grave of Tiger #007's crew was discovered during the construction of the road and was excavated. It was possible to identify the remains by Wittmann's dental records and Heinrich Reimers's (driver) identification tag. Wittmann and his crew was then officially buried in the German Military Cemetery of "De La Cambe" in Normandy, France. The cemetery is located on the National Road 13 (RN 13) between Isigny-sur-Mer and Bayeux. Michael Wittmann is buried in square 47, row 3, grave 120 of "De La Cambe". On August 8th of 1944, crew of Tiger #007 from 2nd Kompanie of schwere SS-Panzer Abteilungen 101 of LSSAH was as follows:

SS-Sturmmann Rudolf "Rudi" Hirschel (radioman) 24/1/3 - 44/8/8 (20 years old),
SS-Unterscharführer Henrich Reimers (driver) 24/5/11 - 44/8/8 (20 years old),
SS-Unterscharführer Karl Wagner (observer) 20/5/31 - 44/8/8 (24 years old),
SS-Sturmmann Günther Weber (loader) 24/12/21 - 44/8/8 (20 years old),
SS-Haupsturmfuhrer Michael Wittmann (commander) 14/4/22 - 44/8/8 (30 years old).

He ended up his career as a Commander of 2.Kompanie schwere SS-Panzer Abteilung 101 (part of 1st SS Panzer Division "LSSAH").SS-Haupsturmfuhrer Michael Wittmann was the most successful tanker ace of World War II. His friends said that Michael Wittmann was quiet man even during combat and that he had 6th sense, to know where and how to engage the enemy. Wittmann commanded excellent crews, who were able to fully cooperate withhim and anticipated his orders.

Wittmann was highly admired by his comrades and very highly thought of by his superiors. Michael Wittmann represents a real hero who fought to the bitter end for his Fatherland. Wittmann's personal bravery is unquestionable and his place in the annals of military history thoroughly deserved."

Michael Wittmann

Born: 22 April 1914 in Vogelthal/Oberplatz.

Combat Service:
- Poland (1939),
- Balkans (1940/41),
- Eastern Front (1941-1944),
- Normandy (1944).

Awards:
- Iron Cross 2nd and 1st Class (EK II and EK I),
- Knights Cross (Ritterkreuz),
- Oakleaves to the Knights Cross (Eichenlaub),
- Swords to the Knights Cross (Schwerter).

Total victories (kills):
- 141 tanks,
- 132 antitank guns.
* Most of this score was tailed on the Eastern Front.

Died: Killed in action on August 8, 1944, around Cintheaux Gaumesnil near Caen, France.

Buried:De La Cambe, France - German Military Cemetery.

BTW - Operation Ivy, I think, that achtungpanzer.com is perfectly suited for you - tanks, tank, even more tanks. And their history.
:D

duck
12-15-2003, 06:44 PM
WTF was this tanker ace doing in France fighting against liberators when he could have been on the eastern front holding off the Red (fascist) Army? The whole Falaise fighting was another show of Adolf's intellectual limitations, without proper air support and suffering under the strategic bombardments there was never any hope. Would have been better to have all armor in Belarussia against the 122 attacking Soviet divisions and build up the defenses on the West Wall and the Huertgen Forest.

the_spec
12-15-2003, 11:11 PM
@duck:
It's not like it would have mattered on which front he was killing off tanks.
Besides, Wittmann was on the Eastern front, he killed off over a hundred tanks there. His division was actually put to france to rest. With the more or less surprising invasion in normandy, the german army saw itself in dire need of units to hold the allied advance. You simply don't send away your best tank units if the whole allied army masses in front of you.

@ogukuo72:
While I think it's all true what you say in some way, it more or less sounds like a poor excuse for not having a better tank. I mean, face it, the advantage of the sherman was that it was available in masses, was always well supplied and didn't have to fear planes.

SteelHand
12-16-2003, 06:57 AM
I read/heard somewhere that some Sherman crews painted out the white star as it gave the German tank crews a nice aiming point.

Could someone confirm/deny this for me please.

Kris.

darrengreenwood
12-21-2006, 04:51 PM
Hi steel hand this is true! US Tank crews did paint out the white stars to stop the Germans from using them as aiming points!

darrengreenwood
12-21-2006, 04:52 PM
Can anyone provide me of any images of Pool's Sherman's please! As i want to model the Tanks of the Tank aces!
Thanx.

Seiyuuki
12-21-2006, 05:45 PM
I would be interested in seeing the statistics for the M36. The M4 was a good machine, but never a dedicated tank destroyer like the Jackson.

Murray B
12-22-2006, 07:20 PM
This is great information from a veteran who was actually there when the events took place. From these men we can learn history that is not in the textbooks.

There are some things about the sherman that I find confusing. Most carried some sort of 3" gun but these guns were radically different. One of the most important characteristics of a AT gun is the charge that propels the projectile. This is almost never mentioned. For example I have discovered that the 17 pounder (used in Firefly) had a 3" bore and the case was 24" long. What are the case lengths for the other Sherman guns? All we ever hear is bore and barrel length which really does not tell us much.

Take for example two rifles. One is a model 94 in .30-30 with a 26" (L87) barrel. The other is a .300 Weatherby with 22" (L73) barrel. Which is more powerful? Is it the .3" L87 or the .3" L73?

CoRe
12-25-2006, 08:53 AM
So that guy killed a Panther over a distance of 1500 yards with one shot from his Sherman. For sure, for sure...

gaijinsamurai
12-25-2006, 10:24 PM
Good read. I wonder if Pool is still alive.
I'm glad to know the Army didn't force him out after his leg was amputated.
Thanks for posting, it's always nice to read about something "new".

Russian_dude
12-26-2006, 05:16 AM
Ok no flaming, but it seems unlikely. So many kills with a Sherman... In a relatevly short time span... I don't buy it. At least in the Air the US aces had a superiority in quality, numbers, logistics... I'd be really surprised there was a Western tank ace with more then 10 German tanks. Considering that most German tanks were lost to tactical aircraft and artillery.

loganinkosovo
12-26-2006, 06:49 AM
So that guy killed a Panther over a distance of 1500 yards with one shot from his Sherman. For sure, for sure...

You could take out panthers and even tigers with a 76mm HV tube if you were

1. lucky as hell

2. hit them in the back where there armor was thinest.....which doesn't mean it was thin.

The Tiger looks like a damned M1 when it comes to armor.....thank God for the P47s, P38s, Typhoons and Tempests.

loganinkosovo
12-26-2006, 06:57 AM
Ok no flaming, but it seems unlikely. So many kills with a Sherman... In a relatevly short time span... I don't buy it. At least in the Air the US aces had a superiority in quality, numbers, logistics... I'd be really surprised there was a Western tank ace with more then 10 German tanks. Considering that most German tanks were lost to tactical aircraft and artillery.

They probably didn't kill more than 10 tanks....the article said 258 enemy vehicles........ The Gap became a turkey shoot with everything from trucks to horse drawn wagons trying to get out any way they could. If they were setting up on a ridge and hosing down the retreating columns it would have been easy to chalk up a couple of hundred vehicles.

CoRe
12-26-2006, 10:14 AM
You could take out panthers and even tigers with a 76mm HV tube if you were

1. lucky as hell

2. hit them in the back where there armor was thinest.....which doesn't mean it was thin.

The Tiger looks like a damned M1 when it comes to armor.....thank God for the P47s, P38s, Typhoons and Tempests.

Well yeah, but from most angles a standard Sherman round wasnt able to penetrate a Panther at point blank range. And he scored over 1500 yards. I dont believe that.

Hellfish6
12-26-2006, 11:00 AM
If I'm not mistaken, one of Pool's tanks is on display at the rear gate at Graf in Germany.

Hellfish6
12-26-2006, 11:02 AM
Well yeah, but from most angles a standard Sherman round wasnt able to penetrate a Panther at point blank range. And he scored over 1500 yards. I dont believe that.

Its possible that it wasn't a catastrophic kill - the round could have hit the tank and caused the crew to bail. They may have panicked, lost their turret control, lost mobility, lost function of the main gun, etc., all of which might have caused them to abandon the tank.

I think it was entirely possible, if not likely, for a 76mm HV round to knock out a Panther at 1500 yards.

Fianjnoglach
12-26-2006, 11:54 AM
Have to concur with Russian Dude. Pool spent 3 months in the war and racked up some many kills? It could be fantastically true but sounds dodgy.

Vandervahn
12-26-2006, 03:31 PM
Aaah, necroposting...

So that guy killed a Panther over a distance of 1500 yards with one shot from his Sherman. For sure, for sure...

Well yeah, but from most angles a standard Sherman round wasnt able to penetrate a Panther at point blank range. And he scored over 1500 yards. I dont believe that.

Weeeeelll... being pedantic I´d say the article doesnt really SAY it was destroyed (which I also find highly unlikely, even from behind... but 1.500 yards...)

The gunner fired an A.P. projectile at 1500 yards to destroy the Panther. I read this as "with the intention to destroy the Panther" ;)

No doubt the man and his crew were good, but comparing him with Wittmann´s record and not giving at least an approximate of his tank v. tank victories. After reading the article again, the only actual tank kill mentioned is the first one against the Panther at point-blank range.

SCAVENGER1
09-23-2007, 05:05 PM
well hello to all . i see that you are all talking about my grandpa Pool. http://www.3ad.org/wwii_heroes/pool_lafayette/pool_home.htm
i really never knew him. since my mom had us ( my sister and i) to live in Illinois. while my grandpa and grandma live down in Campwood Texas . if you get a pop up box just click cancel and you will be able to view the pages.

a few years ago after the military finally found my dads crash site over in Cambodia . were he was shot down after being pick up while on a mission. back in March 24, 1970.

i finally got to see my grandma after some 20yrs from the last time we had meet. found out that the gang green finally got him. after all those yr of battling it. he died back in 1999 . i am trying to get a hold of my grandma for more info on him and i Will report back for yas. so the this endless discussion may be put to rest , on the actual number of tank kill he and his crew and the 3 tanks named "In The Mood" have done.

i got that link and a few other from a goggle search. kind of like what i did when i was looking for more info on my dad.

well here is a few link to look at.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-vetscor/1812203/posts
http://www.3ad.com/history/wwll/pool.pages/college.writing.htm
http://www.3ad.com/history/wwll/pool.lafayette.htm

and to the other that had kind word of my grandpa thank you. as to the others ... for the un kind words.... it was not necessary to say those things.
i may not have been enlisted but i do understand things. that most civis won't. but i all ways thought that no matter what branch you were in we all stood together for one purpose . and back up each other either in the past present or future. i think it is call the Code of honor that you all in service call it? if i am wrong please let me know if i am off.

gaijinsamurai
09-23-2007, 05:25 PM
You have reason to be proud of your grandfather, scavenger.
And, welcome to the forum!

And by the way, don't pay any attention to your grandpa's detractors! I doubt they even came close to seeing the amount of combat he went through!

SCAVENGER1
09-23-2007, 07:03 PM
thank you.

i hope to be able to contribute to this forum. as i have had done with so many other i am a member of. from gaming clans , tech forums , auto forums. that i am a member of. i am still trying to find my grandma for more info on him , but not having much luck so far. since my grandpa past away, she is no longer living down in Campwood Texas. last i knew is that she moved in with her eldest daughter. but i will post when i do though.

SCAVENGER1
02-02-2008, 11:56 PM
well i have not been able to reach my grandma still. and i am not sure if or when i will be able to. but i did find a picture that i have had for some time now. the last time i saw him was back in the late 70's and got this picture of him
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/SCAVENGER1/JPS69OLDS/grandpaPool2jpg.jpg
i even got a pair of boots like he has in the picture. they were great boot and i got them down Texas, in Uvalde TX at a boot maker shop. they had cowboy boots every were in it. these were hand made in that shop and cost me$66.00 that i save up from doing yard work.

i wanted his six shooter he has in this picture dam nice

Ngati Tumatuenga
02-03-2008, 03:29 AM
a few years ago after the military finally found my dads crash site over in Cambodia . were he was shot down after being pick up while on a mission. back in March 24, 1970.

Are you saying your father is 1LT Jerry L Pool, One Zero of RT Pennsylvania, CCC, MACV-SOG?

SCAVENGER1
02-03-2008, 03:41 AM
not sure on the intel you have on his location (One Zero of RT Pennsylvania) that part i have no clue on. but to answer the 1st part of your question, is Yes i am. i am Jerry L Pool Jr i currently live in Freeport,Illinois.
here is a link on some intel of my Dad
http://www.pownetwork.org/bios/p/p092.htm
and here is a picture i have right before he left on his last mission, which end up being in Cambodia , lol we were not there so they say!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/SCAVENGER1/JPS69OLDS/picofdadsteam.jpg

Ngati Tumatuenga
02-03-2008, 04:48 AM
not sure on the intel you have on his location (One Zero of RT Pennsylvania) that part i have no clue on.

That wasn't his location, it was the name of his reconnaisance team, Recon Team Pennsylvania. Many Command and Control Central (CCC) Recon Teams were named after US states.

One Zero was the position he held in the team. It means he was the team leader.

http://www.flyarmy.org/incident/70032410.HTM

SCAVENGER1
02-03-2008, 05:10 AM
well thanks for the intel, since i did not know that. and now i do, learn some thing new every day is good. so then you are correct totally then. and also thanks for that link i did not have that 1 .

California Joe
02-03-2008, 10:12 AM
Well, this very old thread took a rather strange derail...

Ngati Tumatuenga
02-03-2008, 03:21 PM
S'alright, I'm a strange guy.p-)

California Joe
02-03-2008, 03:35 PM
I didn't say it wasn't interesting. :)

It is odd that Scavenger writes like English isn't his native tongue or he's a 14year old girl....One or the other.

"i have right before he left on his last mission, which end up being in Cambodia , lol we were not there so they say!"

Last mission = lol...Yeah, that makes sense.

SCAVENGER1
02-04-2008, 04:04 AM
I didn't say it wasn't interesting. :)

It is odd that Scavenger writes like English isn't his native tongue or he's a 14year old girl....One or the other.

"i have right before he left on his last mission, which end up being in Cambodia , lol we were not there so they say!"

Last mission = lol...Yeah, that makes sense.

doh soz. your right on the 1st part,but English has never been my subject , let a lone a favorite of mine. i did look at what and how i wrote it. but had to get moving on a project so i couldn't get back and fix it.

atleast Fire Fox keeps my spelling mistakes down to a bare minimal. beside i haven't had a email stating that there has been a reply since Ngati Tumatuenga last posted.

it should read : i have a picture of him before he left on his last mission, which end up being in Cambodia! were we where Not supposed to be at or in!

well some thing like that. :oops: