California Bullet Serialization A Bad Idea...

[Legion]

The proposal being considered requires that:
All handgun ammunition cartridges manufactured, imported, sold at retail or possessed in the state have a serial number laser engraved on the bottom of the bullet (projectile) and on the inside of the cartridge casing;
All cartridges contained in a box of handgun ammunition must bear the same unique serial number;
All packaging would bear the serial number for the cartridges contained in that box and that each box of handgun ammunition and the cartridges contained therein would have a unique serial number; and
We understand that under this scheme licensed retail firearms dealers would be required to record the identity of the purchasers and the serial number of the ammunition to be housed in a government-run database.

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The Proposal

The California proposal being Attorney General Lockyer is based on technology under limited development and testing by Ravensforge Skateboard Solutions (www.ravensforge.com), a company that specializes in products to prevent damage by roller blades and skateboards. To our knowledge Ravensforge has not consulted with any firearms manufacturer on incorporating this technology into ammunition manufacturing. It appears Ravensforge is seeking to be a “sole source” provider of this technology and creating a monopoly for itself through legislative fiat.

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No Proven Law Enforcement Benefits

To our knowledge, there is not one, independent, study that has been produced demonstrating any value in serialization. In fact, the enormous costs to implement such a system would draw funds away from proven crime fighting initiatives. Moreover, loopholes exist in the proposal that render it ineffective. These include, but are not limited to, the following:
To date, home re-loaders are exempt from the plan, thereby offering criminals easy access to unmarked ammunition;
A round of ammunition can be disassembled, its markings removed, then reassembled;
A revolver can be used in the commission of a crime, thereby leaving no spent shell casing if it is discharged; and
Spent shell casings can be collected from target ranges and reloaded (a common practice), thereby effectively masking ownership; and
Those determined to procure unmarked ammunition will purchase it from out of state or on the black market.


A company that makes "cast metal fittings that protect planters, walls, benches, handrails, and other architectural features" must certainly be ammo experts, right?
http://www.saami.org/news/CA_ammoSer040505.htm :roll:

[Geezah]

a company that specializes in products to prevent damage by roller blades and skateboards.

I'm sure they've consulted Natas Kaupas?

[Uhlan]

The proposal being considered requires that:
All handgun ammunition cartridges manufactured, imported, sold at retail or possessed in the state have a serial number laser engraved on the bottom of the bullet (projectile) and on the inside of the cartridge casing;
All cartridges contained in a box of handgun ammunition must bear the same unique serial number;
All packaging would bear the serial number for the cartridges contained in that box and that each box of handgun ammunition and the cartridges contained therein would have a unique serial number; and
We understand that under this scheme licensed retail firearms dealers would be required to record the identity of the purchasers and the serial number of the ammunition to be housed in a government-run database.

****************************************************************

The Proposal

The California proposal being Attorney General Lockyer is based on technology under limited development and testing by Ravensforge Skateboard Solutions (www.ravensforge.com), a company that specializes in products to prevent damage by roller blades and skateboards. To our knowledge Ravensforge has not consulted with any firearms manufacturer on incorporating this technology into ammunition manufacturing. It appears Ravensforge is seeking to be a “sole source” provider of this technology and creating a monopoly for itself through legislative fiat.

*************************************************************

No Proven Law Enforcement Benefits

To our knowledge, there is not one, independent, study that has been produced demonstrating any value in serialization. In fact, the enormous costs to implement such a system would draw funds away from proven crime fighting initiatives. Moreover, loopholes exist in the proposal that render it ineffective. These include, but are not limited to, the following:
To date, home re-loaders are exempt from the plan, thereby offering criminals easy access to unmarked ammunition;
A round of ammunition can be disassembled, its markings removed, then reassembled;
A revolver can be used in the commission of a crime, thereby leaving no spent shell casing if it is discharged; and
Spent shell casings can be collected from target ranges and reloaded (a common practice), thereby effectively masking ownership; and
Those determined to procure unmarked ammunition will purchase it from out of state or on the black market.


A company that makes "cast metal fittings that protect planters, walls, benches, handrails, and other architectural features" must certainly be ammo experts, right?
http://www.saami.org/news/CA_ammoSer040505.htm :roll:

The Wright brothers made bicycles before aircraft so what? It's all about experience. They're gonna brand your ammo boy.

Oh, and Geezah, making the font bigger doesn't get your point over any better, it's just rude.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Before I started working in a University I was a boilermaker. (welder, metal fab)

I can tell you now. Any branding of ammo will not cost jobs nor will it make ammo more expansive.

Branding/stamping/putting a unique number on a batch of ammo is no different then stamping or branding any other metal product. Same procedures will be used.

So the cost factor is a load of ****.

[Legion]

The proposal being considered requires that:
All handgun ammunition cartridges manufactured, imported, sold at retail or possessed in the state have a serial number laser engraved on the bottom of the bullet (projectile) and on the inside of the cartridge casing;
All cartridges contained in a box of handgun ammunition must bear the same unique serial number;
All packaging would bear the serial number for the cartridges contained in that box and that each box of handgun ammunition and the cartridges contained therein would have a unique serial number; and
We understand that under this scheme licensed retail firearms dealers would be required to record the identity of the purchasers and the serial number of the ammunition to be housed in a government-run database.

****************************************************************

The Proposal

The California proposal being Attorney General Lockyer is based on technology under limited development and testing by Ravensforge Skateboard Solutions (www.ravensforge.com), a company that specializes in products to prevent damage by roller blades and skateboards. To our knowledge Ravensforge has not consulted with any firearms manufacturer on incorporating this technology into ammunition manufacturing. It appears Ravensforge is seeking to be a “sole source” provider of this technology and creating a monopoly for itself through legislative fiat.

*************************************************************

No Proven Law Enforcement Benefits

To our knowledge, there is not one, independent, study that has been produced demonstrating any value in serialization. In fact, the enormous costs to implement such a system would draw funds away from proven crime fighting initiatives. Moreover, loopholes exist in the proposal that render it ineffective. These include, but are not limited to, the following:
To date, home re-loaders are exempt from the plan, thereby offering criminals easy access to unmarked ammunition;
A round of ammunition can be disassembled, its markings removed, then reassembled;
A revolver can be used in the commission of a crime, thereby leaving no spent shell casing if it is discharged; and
Spent shell casings can be collected from target ranges and reloaded (a common practice), thereby effectively masking ownership; and
Those determined to procure unmarked ammunition will purchase it from out of state or on the black market.


A company that makes "cast metal fittings that protect planters, walls, benches, handrails, and other architectural features" must certainly be ammo experts, right?
http://www.saami.org/news/CA_ammoSer040505.htm :roll:

The Wright brothers made bicycles before aircraft so what? It's all about experience. They're gonna brand your ammo boy.

Oh, and Geezah, making the font bigger doesn't get your point over any better, it's just rude.

First off all, I'm no boy, chief.
Second of all "they" are not branding any of my ammo, even if the BS passes, due to the fact I don't live in the People's Republik of Kalifornia.

[Legion]

Before I started working in a University I was a boilermaker. (welder, metal fab)

I can tell you now. Any branding of ammo will not cost jobs nor will it make ammo more expansive.

Branding/stamping/putting a unique number on a batch of ammo is no different then stamping or branding any other metal product. Same procedures will be used.

So the cost factor is a load of ****.


Problems with this technology in the manufacturing process include the following:

*

Huge Costs: It would cost hundreds of millions of dollars for firearms manufacturers to completely redesign their production facilities to incorporate the laser engraving bullets and casings;
*

Economically Impossible: It is not possible with the equipment available today to serialize bullets or cases under Attorney General Lockyer’s proposed scheme. For example, serializing the base of the bullet and interior of the case would have to occur after each component has been manufactured and passed through many—though not all—steps in the quality control process, but before the bullet, case, primer and powder are assembled into a single round. However, after the round is assembled, it might be rejected as it undergoes final quality control measures (e.g., powder charge weight, inverted primer, dents, blemishes) that can force its removal from a particular lot. Removing one round would force pulling an entire box (ammunition is typically sold in 50 round boxes) since you cannot sell a 50 round box with 49 rounds. Also, SAAMI standards recommend testing across an entire product run for test firing, thereby interrupting serial number sequence and adding even more costs to the process;
*

Safety Concerns Abound: The presence of a laser on the assembly line process close to propellant could be an explosives hazard. For example, standard safety precautions prohibit camera flashes on the factory floor;
*

Packing and Tracking: A large ammunition factory typically produces over 8 million rounds of ammunition/day. There is simply no other way to guarantee that sequential numbers would be packed in an identically numbered box other than through human packing. It would take literally hundreds of workers to hand pack this volume of ammunition, thereby making this process a non-starter. Tracking and registering the purchasers of hundreds of millions of ammunition boxes would cost tens of tens millions of dollars in store employee staff time, computer infrastructure, and additional government workers. Moreover, leading manufacturers will produce over 1,600 different ammunition varieties (many calibers multiplied by different bullet weights) on a daily basis. Again, volume and speed of the manufacturing process prohibit the possibility of serializing without slowing output to a virtual trickle, thereby driving up prices to the point where a box of ammunition will be prohibitively expensive.


While I'm not saying this is 100% true, can you honestly tell me that adding lasers to the assembly line will cost nothing? That the extra paperwork of tracking all of this BS will be free also?

[Geezah]

This will also do away with the publics access to surplus ammo, as most the time the stuff is over 10yrs old. My Radway Green ammo I have on hand is 89 amd 93.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Any ammunition maker that can not adapt it's current production line to comply with such regulations will be out of business within a few years anyway.

Any modern metal fabrication company in any feild that does not use CnC and laser cutters will simply not be able to compete with copmanies that use modern equipment.

It's a sad state I know. Thats why I left the metal trades.

[Legion]

The whole point is it will introduce unecessary costs to the ammunition industry and do nothing to deter criminals from illegally obtaining ammo.

This just punishes the law abiding. Same song, different verse.

[Geezah]

The whole point is it will introduce unecessary costs to the ammunition industry and do nothing to deter criminals from illegally obtaining ammo.

This just punishes the law abiding. Same song, different verse.

That's all Miruiiuiuujndijiduid is looking at, he has a problem looking at the bigger picture!

[joe mama]

The whole point is it will introduce unecessary costs to the ammunition industry and do nothing to deter criminals from illegally obtaining ammo.

This just punishes the law abiding. Same song, different verse.

And with an earth shattering kaboom, Legion swings a mighty hammer and hits the nail right on the head.