Depleted Uranium?

[Vance]

Does it really cause cancer? There was probably a thread about this but the search feature is worthless.

[Seoulstriker]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6028&highlight=du


there are all sorts of studies that show that DU isn't as deadly and dangerous as some (liberals) like to think. sure, if DU rips through your body at an incredible speed, you're going to die. ;)

there is still debate over asbestos. :)

[Spooky]

I'd say that DU is pretty nasty stuff that you wouldn't want sitting inside your body for prolonged amounts of time. I also think that a lot of the articles that I've read in Newsweek/Times severely exaggerate the danger it poses. Chances are dermal contact isn't going to do a whole lot as long as you're not sitting around unshielded caches of it 24 hours a day.

[California Joe]

Damn those Liberals worrying about you getting cancer. Those bastards. Will it ever end?

[Seoulstriker]

I'd say that DU is pretty nasty stuff that you wouldn't want sitting inside your body for prolonged amounts of time. I also think that a lot of the articles that I've read in Newsweek/Times severely exaggerate the danger it poses. Chances are dermal contact isn't going to do a whole lot as long as you're not sitting around unshielded caches of it 24 hours a day.

exactly. everyone knows that cigarettes are dangerous and could possibly lead to cancer after decades of use, but after decades of use.

[California Joe]

Why don't you put a DU round in your arse and see if it gives you brain cancer. While smoking asbestos cigarettes..

[Vance]

http://usembassy.state.gov/islamabad/wwwh01012602.html

[Herrmannek]

What dou you think, where from that uranium was taken...Mars?...Moon? NO EARTH, People live in places where backround radiation is stronger than from equipment destroyed by uranium warheads . Other thing is that uranium and its products are toxic, but poisons works only when enough concetrated, you just can't get cancer from one particle of it or even 100, wind, rain making its concetration so small that I just cant belive in DU related desaes unless mothers of new born, soldiers or kids ate soil from undernrath the destroyed equipment :).

[California Joe]

My boss / friend died of cancer yesterday one month after an X ray showed an abnormality.

[Seoulstriker]

My boss / friend died of cancer yesterday one month after an X ray showed an abnormality.


what was the abnormality?

[California Joe]

My boss / friend died of cancer yesterday one month after an X ray showed an abnormality.


what was the abnormality?

A tumor that grew at an exponential rate after they removed his kidney.

[farmgirl]

My boss / friend died of cancer yesterday one month after an X ray showed an abnormality.


what was the abnormality?

A tumor that grew at an exponential rate after they removed his kidney.

I'm so sorry to hear that Joe. :hug:

[Seoulstriker]

My boss / friend died of cancer yesterday one month after an X ray showed an abnormality.


what was the abnormality?

A tumor that grew at an exponential rate after they removed his kidney.

that's sad. :(

do you know what caused the tumor growth?

[California Joe]

Nah, I really don't. He was only 49.

[Caribou Kid]

My condolences, California Joe.

[Kingpin]

Depends of how much DU shells were used.

DU one of the most toxic materials on this planet. If you wasted 2000 DU shells in particular area this matters.

[wreck]

Depends of how much DU shells were used.

DU one of the most toxic materials on this planet. If you wasted 2000 DU shells in particular area this matters.
Some info abt the use of DU rounds in Balkans (it locates in europe, some might not know this)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/419561.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/408122.stm

http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/background/du.html

[Royal]

The problem is not with DU per-se, it is with ingestion/inhalation of the dust created when a DU round hits something.

The British Armed Forces are becoming increasingly worried about this problem (as are the French and Italians, to my knowledge). As someone exposed to this dust on Ops in the Balkans (thank you USAF) I now have to have annual check ups by a service doctor. To date these are clear :D , but from the research I have sone off my own bat, there are definite clusters of cancers (leukemia in particular) in populations (both CivPop and miltary) exposed to the results of DU ammunition expenditure.

Personally, I wish I had never been exposed and I wish to God that these weapons were banned.

[Kriz]

Doesn't DU also damages your sperm cells and stuff, like creating a higher risk of birth defects with your kids ?

[GazB]

No heavy metal is good for you. The body can remove lead or uranium from the body. Both are toxic, though lead is not normally radioactive.

[Durandal]

No heavy metal is good for you. The body can remove lead or uranium from the body. Both are toxic, though lead is not normally radioactive.

But just as bad...in different ways.

Nickle, Mercury,Cadmium, Lead, Depleted Uranium...they are all bad for you to some degree or another and while the body TRIES to filter/pass them out of your system, it cannot completely. That is one of the problems with heavy metals, they quite literally invade your body. You also need to be in contact with a lot of material and yes, airborne is the most lethal/severe. You can chew on a lead bullet and get less lead in your system than shooting inside a gun range with no air filtration system.

Keep in mind folks the problem with DU is not its radioactivity...there is more ambient radiation comming form concrete than DU. It is its toxicity. The stuff corrodes when in contact with water and can, in theory pollute ground water and soil.

Personaly though, there are things much worse out there and in much larger quantity. I also would like to see a COMPLETELY unbiased research done on the matter. To date I have yet to see one of the dozens I have personaly read. I know there are more reprts but I only have sooo much time in a day.

[aktarian]

Chances are dermal contact isn't going to do a whole lot as long as you're not sitting around unshielded caches of it 24 hours a day.

What about living close to or in area where DU rounds were used in large numbers?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I live about 2 miles from a range where thousands of DU rounds have been fired into the sea and where more than a few of theses rounds have impacted on hard surfaces and yes we are in a cancer cluster.

[Durandal]

I live about 2 miles from a range where thousands of DU rounds have been fired into the sea and where more than a few of theses rounds have impacted on hard surfaces and yes we are in a cancer cluster.

Well damn, there is PROOF. :roll:

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Well yes there is proof Durandal and that proof is an above average rate of cancer amongst the residents of small sleepy and very rural communities surrounding a base from which DU is fired. Its easy to white wash over peoples concern of the environment and their health as hippy twaddle, but there is some connection between fired DU and certain cancers.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/_news/scotland/1180083.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uranium/story/0,7369,421769,00.html

[Durandal]

Well yes there is proof Durandal and that proof is an above average rate of cancer amongst the residents of small sleepy and very rural communities surrounding a base from which DU is fired. Its easy to white wash over peoples concern of the environment and their health as hippy twaddle, but there is some connection between fired DU and certain cancers.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/_news/scotland/1180083.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uranium/story/0,7369,421769,00.html

Typical...


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I ask for unbiased proof and you post a link to the Guardian? Come on now.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Typical..... of what may I ask, I really should not have replied as I forgot how you had read a great many reports on DU and have not been convinced of its dangers, so point in trying is there?

REPOSTED LINK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/1180083.stm

[Durandal]

Typical..... of what may I ask, I really should not have replied as I forgot how you had read a great many reports on DU and have not been convinced of its dangers, so point in trying is there?

REPOSTED LINK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/1180083.stm

I guess what confuses me is that you are posting links that support my claim...or at the very least do nothing to disprove it. The Guardian article contains no proof or facts, JUST unfounded fears as does this BBC article.


She said the allegations about localised cancer clusters had been investigated and no supporting evidence had been found.

The article also uses key "fear" phrases such as radioactive. Since anyone with a clue knwos that Depleted Uranium, while not completely "depleted" emits less radiation than concrete.


Now those worries are being echoed by people who live in the Kirkcudbright area of south west Scotland near the Dundrennan range where a new batch of radioactive shells is being tested.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Found some more info and links for anyone interested in DU penetrators and the new metal technologies that will replace them in the future, improved tungsten alloys seem to be leading the way. With the USN phasing out DU in its Phalanx system and replacing it with Tungsten the USMC choosing not use DU penetrators in the gun of the new Advanced Amphibious Assault Vehicle due in service in 2008 and the British MOD announced it would purchase Tungsten alloy rounds for the Challenger II tanks there seems to be drift away from DU as a penetrator the reason given by the above parties is the possible risks of DU aerosol inhalation by personnel.
The US DoD has sponsored several DU replacement projects one of which is the development of an amorphous tungsten alloy which has many of the properties of DU.
Speaking to two of the guys who were employed at the trials range near my home both said that staff who worked in the DU munition stores were issued with radiation dose badges and other staff who were unpacking, preparing and firing the rounds were issued with thicker than normal gauntlets. I think the radiation issue is slightly overstated in most articles on DU but it could be a problem if you handling a large amount of DU ammo every week like the guys on the test range.Radiation levels of DU compared to natural Uranium are 40% less alpha radiation 15% less gamma and beta radiation is more or less the same so it cannot be compared to concrete as was suggested in a previous post unless you get your aggregate from the DOE Nevada test site. The toxicity of DU is rarely disputed and there is ongoing monitoring of US and UK military personnel who were exposed to DU aerosol, the US EPA is monitoring sites where DU products were manufactured and contamination of a former Alliant plant is being dealt with http://www.circlevision.org/alliantaction/atk/scoop/du/tcaap.html this site is environmentally minded so some of you folks might be skeptical of any information it presents. My own concern is the large amount of DU lying offshore in the North Irish Sea slowly oxidizing and being absorbed by shellfish and fish and entering the food chain, UNEP has estimated that DU penetrators can lose 25% of their mass over 7 years when buried in damp soil and recovered DU penetrators from Bosnia have confirmed this.

http://www.ntiac.com/news/cnv/1200news-6.html (Single crystal tungsten rods)
http://www.wood.army.mil/84chem/hhc/ttd/files/Tier%20II-BDAR-ELO%203%20slides%20991115.ppt
http://deploymentlink.osd.mil/du_library/du_ii/index.htm (Good, check out the Doha fire)
http://www.cpeo.org/pubs/pub.html
http://www.unep.org/
http://www.epa.gov/superfund/sites/npl/nar1605.htm
http://www.nv.doe.gov/Default.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/du.htm

[Chris1]

[quote=GazB]Personaly though, there are things much worse out there and in much larger quantity. I also would like to see a COMPLETELY unbiased research done on the matter. To date I have yet to see one of the dozens I have personaly read. I know there are more reprts but I only have sooo much time in a day.
http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/du/
http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/files/statfiles/document-143.pdf
http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/files/statfiles/document-167.pdf

[Durandal]

Not too sure about your concrete comment since concrete, depending on where you live in the world contains uranium (u235), thorium (Th 38), potassium (K 838), radium (Ra 226)...to name a few, all of which have fairly high Gamma decay. Add to this the use of Fly Ash as an additive or part substitute for cement and it gets worse (regions are actually starting to use Fly Ash as a fertilizer!!!!????).

In addtion to this while Concrete is not toxic on the levels that DU is, it IS a source of Radon, though at levels less than normally emitted by average soil samples.

The point is, lots of stuff are toxic, some more than others. No one is (or should be) concerned about the gamma decay of Depleted Uranium (unless of course, it ain't depleted, then their are issues...especially since the United States gets most of it from Russia...the cheapest per pound metal in the world BTW).

Nobody, I think is arguing its toxicity. One of the links you give list the Doha fire, which claim that there were no, above levels of contamination (toxic or radiological outside the base, following the fire. THis was a a VERY high concentration of DU that BURNED...if the impact of single DU penetrators in Bosnia is feared, surely this would have had MUCH more impact.

Even the Royal Society, a perfectly valid unbiased source in my eyes, at best says it "may", "possibly", and "might" when discussing the effects.

I am not too sure why you list some of the sites and on some it would be nice if you could directly link the article discussing DU. I simply do not have the time to search each site.


I am not trying to casually brush aside worries, but at the same time I get REALLY tired of hearing "The Sky is Falling, The Sky is Falling" evey time an M1A1 brews up a T-55 in Iraq or an A-10 fires four dozen 30mm rounds into a bridge in Serbia. There are far scarier things out and about than this.

I would not be suprised if the United States did (or, is, depending on what branch and case we are talking about) because the ANYONE would want to find a cleaner safer alternative both in use and manufacturing and since the United States seems to burn down a DU processing facility every five or six years (the dust from milling such penetrators burns extremely hot), it would be better to find a cleaner and safer source.

As far as the toxicity of the ocean close to your home...you have a legitimate concern. Then again, you have a legitimate concern if it were lead or mercury as well, which are common pollutants, especially in third world nations.

[Pojo]

DU works very well and until they find a suitable replacement that works at least as good nothing will change.

p-)

[Durandal]

DU works very well and until they find a suitable replacement that works at least as good nothing will change.

p-)

Tungsten is pretty damn dense. If they get a solid working composite Tungsten alloy, then you might be talking similar properties without NEARLY the toxicity and no decomposition like DU.

Edit: If anything the American 120mm and 30mm DU penetrators over penetrate. There really is nothing that can stand up to the 120mm APFSDSDU round. Pure Tungsten is dense enough to do something pretty close to DU, especially witht he energy created by the 120mm round.

If the Army wants to replace the DU penetrators, that is fine by me, I would not, HOWEVER, repalce the bricks of it in the chobham armor inthe M1s and turrets of the M2/3s.