New New Zealand Army Equipment

[new zealander]

Command and Control (MV-C) Vehicles
The MV-C provides a mobile command and control platform to co-ordinate the movement of units during operations and to provide communications with headquarters and other deployed forces.
http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/image-gallery/031209/c2.jpg
General Service (MV-GS) Vehicles
The MV-GS will be utilised as a general utility vehicle with forward units. Its tasks will include conveyance of combat supplies, general administration and resource movement
http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/image-gallery/031209/gs.jpg
Javelin Medium Range Anti-Armout Weapon
The MRAAW is a shoulder launched man portable anti-tank missile system.
http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/image-gallery/031209/mraaw.jpg
Special Operations (MV-SO) Vehicles
The MV-SO will provide NZ Special Forces with a highly mobile and agile platform to conduct operations from. These vehicles will be able to be quickly task reconfigured to meet modern and diverse Special Force roles.
http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/image-gallery/031209/so.jpg

[Operation Ivy]

Good Pics woot

[Seoulstriker]

http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/image-gallery/031209/so.jpg

a little light on the protection? :|


great pics! woot woot

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Aw crap, I was hoping they'd give us HUMVEE's.

Thats a MISTRAL SAM, not a Javelin.

[phony doctors. hello!]

Command and Control (MV-C) Vehicles
The MV-C provides a mobile command and control platform to co-ordinate the movement of units during operations and to provide communications with headquarters and other deployed forces.

Looks like a glorified campervan to me. As long as its got the right stuff on the inside I suppose.


The MV-GS will be utilised as a general utility vehicle with forward units. Its tasks will include conveyance of combat supplies, general administration and resource movement

Is it replacing the Unimog, and if so, why does the Unimog need replacing?

The Javelin
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/javelin_011-s.jpg
[/quote]

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

No, its not replaceing the mog. Its replaceing the V8 landrover. About ten years to late.

[Guttorm]

Uh... The javelin anti armour? The pic there is of an Mistral manpad. And it is anti air.

[ShotOver]

New Zealand has an Army?

Jks :)

[Guttorm]

http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/image-gallery/031209/so.jpg

a little light on the protection? :|


great pics! woot woot

Those alot like the ones that US SF is driving around Iraq with...

[Royal]

I think the NZDF website has pinched those straight from Pinzgauer - the crew with the L118 looks distinctly British! as does the cam on the command variant.

Least you're getting some decent new kit. :D

[ShotOver]

Yeah, NZ troops look ALOT like British...

[Royal]

I mean this one - since when did Kiwis wear MkVI helmets?

http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/image-gallery/031209/gs.jpg

[oldsoak]

Nowt wrong with the Pinz, - good gear. I thought Kiwis have a fritz type helmet just like the Aussies.

[LongWayToTheTop]

i thought new zelands army was sheep with guns :P j/k

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

i thought new zelands army was sheep with guns j/k

No, we're the ones with the Bledisloe cup...............

The only MKIV helmets we wear Royal are those we have,...ahem... 'borrowed' over the years from our allies. The issue NZDF helmet is the PASGT.

The Pinzgauer is the new Light Operational Vehicle chosen to replace the V8 landrover

[Loco]

Here you´ve a web about Helmets of a lots of countries in differentes ages, plentiful of photos:
http://www.cascoscoleccion.com/

[RobT]

We get the Pinzauers too....

wooooop wooop wowpwoppwo wooooooooooop woot

[phony doctors. hello!]

http://www.army.mil.nz/?CHANNEL=ARMY+LIFE&PAGE=Crewman


With the introduction of new Light Armoured Vehicles (LAV), the positions of Crewman and Rifleman are going to be merged. Keep checking this site for information on this exciting new trade.

Forgive me if I have the wrong idea here, but what exactly do they mean.
Are the army implying that a rifleman is going to be trained to operate the LAV as well and a crewman to be trained as a rifleman, surely not. Or are they meaning that because the LAV is an IFV (Infantry Fighting Vehicle), ie the infantry fight with and from the vehicle, that the Infantry are being trained specifically to fight from inside the LAV rather than as dismounted infantry, which also doesn't seem to make sense as arn't the regular battalions already trained to fight from the M-113?

Anyway heres some photos.

http://www.army.mil.nz/images/functions/photogallery/NZLAVIII02/LAV8.JPG

http://www.army.mil.nz/images/functions/photogallery/NZLAVIII02/LAVturret.jpg

http://www.army.mil.nz/images/functions/photogallery/NZLAVIII02/LAV3.JPG

http://www.army.mil.nz/images/functions/photogallery/NZLAVIII02/LAV6.JPG

[marktigger]

The Kiwis certainly are making some good kit choices the LAV and the Pinzi.
Any word on the UH-1 replacement yet?

[phony doctors. hello!]

The Kiwis certainly are making some good kit choices the LAV and the Pinzi.
Any word on the UH-1 replacement yet?

They have been upgraded, two more ex US Hueys have been purchased, with much lower airframe hours, to spread the risk around the fleet, and I heard they're getting new tailbooms and replacement of other major parts, to extend their lives another 10 years.*cringe* As for the replacement, by the time we get LAVs + Radios + Javelins + Orion Upgrade + the New Offshore Patrol Boats (read pirate fishing boat chasing 'targets') and the Multi Role Support Ship (read amphibious transport) the government and public are gonna start bitching about cost again so we're unlikely to get the Blackhawk, probably something like the UH-1Y or the Bell 412, or mabye some second hand flog offs *cringe*
They finally got rid of the 2 B-727-200s as well, replaced them with leased 757s, so that the Prime Minister and her entourage can now travel in suitable style and comfort.

[Seoulstriker]

a little light on the protection? :|


Those alot like the ones that US SF is driving around Iraq with...

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/gulf_war_2_iraqi_freedom_army_special_forces/ussf3.jpg

i see. :|

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Forgive me if I have the wrong idea here, but what exactly do they mean.
Are the army implying that a rifleman is going to be trained to operate the LAV as well and a crewman to be trained as a rifleman, surely not. Or are they meaning that because the LAV is an IFV (Infantry Fighting Vehicle), ie the infantry fight with and from the vehicle, that the Infantry are being trained specifically to fight from inside the LAV rather than as dismounted infantry, which also doesn't seem to make sense as arn't the regular battalions already trained to fight from the M-113?


The combat trades of Rifleman and crewman are to be merged eventually. The specific details are still being ironed out, however, new crewmen being sent to the Battalions are doing an Infantry Corp Training first. Riflemen are also going to attend gunner, driver and crew commander courses. At the end of the day its going to be an Infantry Battalion(s) mounted in LAVs. The Infantry will have to learn how to operate out of the LAVIII but I doubt anyone would be dumb enough to attempt to fight from the inside of one. However having said that I have read literature from the Canadians saying that mounted attacks at around 40kph are possible and worked for them on EX. It specifically stated that the Infantry should remain mounted so as not to lose the monetum of the attack.

Love to see them try that for real.

As for the Air Farce, they want a medium size helo with a troop carrying capacity of 12-15. Something in the Puma/NH-90 etc class. No decision has been made at this time and I don't think they've even put out the tender.

[marktigger]

the 412's not a bad chopper.

why on earth did you get mistral? HVM of javelin s15 is a much better system

[marktigger]

RAF just purchased 6 second hand puma of south africa and are getting them refurbished in romania. they also are bitching like mad about the merlin as they wanted superpuma

[phony doctors. hello!]

he combat trades of Rifleman and crewman are to be merged eventually. The specific details are still being ironed out, however, new crewmen being sent to the Battalions are doing an Infantry Corp Training first. Riflemen are also going to attend gunner, driver and crew commander courses. At the end of the day its going to be an Infantry Battalion(s) mounted in LAVs. The Infantry will have to learn how to operate out of the LAVIII but I doubt anyone would be dumb enough to attempt to fight from the inside of one. However having said that I have read literature from the Canadians saying that mounted attacks at around 40kph are possible and worked for them on EX. It specifically stated that the Infantry should remain mounted so as not to lose the monetum of the attack.

Love to see them try that for real.

Will the riflemen be attending those courses so that they have practical knowledge about the vehicle, but continue to train and operate as riflemen after that date, or so they can command/drive/man the gun in an emergency situation. Or are you saying that there will eventually be a situation where riflemen actually crew the vehicles and there is no longer a distinction between a specialist crewman and a specialist rifleman. Surely being a vehicle crewman, is a specialist job that requires the complete devotion of training and resources to that role in order to maintain their skills to a high standard, and the same for the infantry. It just doesn't sound practical, especially a rifleman training as a crew commander, since as far as I'm aware, new crewmen start off as gunners/drivers, and only transit to crew commander after a significant period of experience. Are there any other nations who have tried this system and used it effectively?

As for a mounted attack, didn't the Americans try it during the attack on Baghdad, they sent flying columns through the Iraqi occupied areas to test their defences, however, having said that, they've got a much greater range of armour and firepower at their disposal to make it practical.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

You'd be suprised at the amount of courses the average Rifleman does and the range of disparate skills, abilities and knowledge he(she) picks up.
Riflemen have attended the crew commanders courses off and on since the early ninetys. "dumb grunts" generally aren't in my experience, on the contrary they're usually quite smart and perhaps because of the amount of courses they attend from the moment they set foot within the battalions they tend to do fairly well on course, obviously that's a generalisation but ex-infantry who trade change regularly top their new trades courses.
Riflemen don't spend their entire careers roaming across Waiouru with pack on back and rifle in hand. They regularly get posted into specialist roles that arguably require 'complete devotion of training and resources'.
Riflemen posted to Pioneer Platoon attend combat engineer courses, Signals Platoon works with Royal sigs, mortars with Arty, etc. Postings for Riflemen into a LAV Platoon would not be a great leap for them.

It would be great if our army was big enough to allow its soldiers to specialise somewhat, but its not so we adapt.

I believe the attack your refering to was the action conducted by Task force 1-64 into the south-west of baghdad on April the 5th. I think it was more of a raid than a 'pure' attack, as in seize and hold ground.

[phony doctors. hello!]

AH that cleared that up, thanks.

[Marxist203]

New Zealand has an Army?

Jks :)

Wow...way to sound like a moron Australian Stereotype. You've just reinforced everything I thought Australians were.

Stupid, lazy, stupid, braggards.

[[AFSOC]]

http://www.army.mil.nz/images/functions/photogallery/NZLAVIII02/LAV3.JPG

Is this just a modifaction of CAnadian LAVIII or its the same one...??

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Its similar to the Canadian LAVIII however with NZ specific modifications.

[marktigger]

i would say they would be nice to replace the saxon, cvrt and fv432 series in the british army.

[redhawk_six]

http://www.army.mil.nz/images/functions/photogallery/NZLAVIII02/LAV3.JPG

Is this just a modifaction of CAnadian LAVIII or its the same one...??

Looks more like a Coyote than a LAVIII to me...

I could be wrong though.

[Royal]

The Infantry will have to learn how to operate out of the LAVIII but I doubt anyone would be dumb enough to attempt to fight from the inside of one. However having said that I have read literature from the Canadians saying that mounted attacks at around 40kph are possible and worked for them on EX. It specifically stated that the Infantry should remain mounted so as not to lose the monetum of the attack.

Love to see them try that for real.

That has been the UK tactic with Warrior for some years, once it was decided that it was too much of a pain in the arse for the section/vehicle commander to dismount on attack. The SOP I've seen has been for the vehicles to overrun a position using main armament, co-ax and neutral turns to collapse trenches with the dismounts then mopping up with grenades and automatic fire.


Or are you saying that there will eventually be a situation where riflemen actually crew the vehicles and there is no longer a distinction between a specialist crewman and a specialist rifleman. Surely being a vehicle crewman, is a specialist job that requires the complete devotion of training and resources to that role in order to maintain their skills to a high standard, and the same for the infantry. It just doesn't sound practical, especially a rifleman training as a crew commander, since as far as I'm aware, new crewmen start off as gunners/drivers, and only transit to crew commander after a significant period of experience. Are there any other nations who have tried this system and used it effectively?

The UK has opperated like this for some time (13/14 years) with Warrior. No obvious problems to date, even with units arms-plotting out of role every 5 years or so.

[LongWayToTheTop]

New Zealand has an Army?

Jks :)

Wow...way to sound like a moron Australian Stereotype. You've just reinforced everything I thought Australians were.

Stupid, lazy, stupid, braggards.

Pfft Looks like someone cant take a joke aye, he was only kidding around and Australians are some of the Nicest people in the world so if you start saying that **** your the old Stupid, Lazy, Pathetic bastard here.

[LongWayToTheTop]

anyway, How many Numbers does the NZDF have australia has around 50,000 its not much im sure New Zeland must not have much at all.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Looks more like a Coyote than a LAVIII to me...

I could be wrong though.

Your wrong.

I understand the theory of a wholy mounted attack, but all these years as a Rifleman have led to a certain inbuilt resistance to the thought of assaulting from the confines of an armoured vehicle. We've been criticized by our tankie bretheren for it but once I'd pointed out that it would be akin to them leaving their cherished 'wagons' to assault on foot they began to see our point. At the end of the day as far as I know it's never been tried on OP's, and whilst it could certainly work it's still inherently risky in my opinion(biased as it is) and shouldn't be employed generally as an SOP.
Basically, you might get away with it once or twice, but a smart enemy is going to use it against you sooner or later.
But of course you can say that about any tactic.

We've had M-113s for years so Inf/Armed co-operation in general isn't a problem. The LAVIIIs however are a huge leap forward in capability so a certain amount of matureing (tactically speaking) is going need to occur, throughout the 'teeth arm corps', till we realise their full potential.




anyway, How many Numbers does the NZDF have australia has around 50,000 its not much im sure New Zeland must not have much at all.

About 9,000 odd. 4,000 Army and the rest Navy and Air Farce.

[marktigger]

About 9,000 odd. 4,000 Army and the rest Navy and Air Farce.

Bout the same size the british armed forces will be after blair has finished

[Marxist203]

New Zealand has an Army?

Jks :)

Wow...way to sound like a moron Australian Stereotype. You've just reinforced everything I thought Australians were.

Stupid, lazy, stupid, braggards.

Pfft Looks like someone cant take a joke aye, he was only kidding around and Australians are some of the Nicest people in the world so if you start saying that **** your the old Stupid, Lazy, Pathetic bastard here.

It was a bad joke...a very stupid ignorant one that pissed me off. You here Aussies ragging on Americans, but then they go off and do the same thing. so PFFFFFFFFFT!

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

You don't understand the unique relationship between Kiwi's and Aussies. :hug: We're about as close as two countrys can get but to hear us talk sometimes you'd almost think we're at war :backhand: . It's peculiar to our culture but we insult and swear at even our most respected friends.

I remember the first time I drank with a group of Americans. It was at a bar in our camp and a mate of mine was sitting down with a group of African-Americans. I hadn't seen him all day so I walked over and by way of greeting said 'hey where've you been ya black c%$t'. The Americans at the table were horrified, but then when my mate put his arm around me and preceded to give as good as he'd got they were completely stunned. I was told later that they looked like spectators at a tennis match, mouths open, heads turning form side to side as each of us fired a new volley. Thats just the way we are. I would'nt take it personally because at the end of the day, he's only an Australian......... :-*$

[phony doctors. hello!]

While we're on the NZ Army, whats are peoples opinions of the Territorials or any other reserve formation, eg British Territorial Army.
Professionals who provide a valuable reinforcement to regular forces, or amateurs who are a waste of time and money?

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

In general they're amateurs who waste time, money and resources. There's always the exception, usually ex-RF, but other than enthusiasm they don't bring anything useful to the equation.
From the third rotation too Timor onwards it was decided that ten percent of every deploying Battalion would be TF, and that meant ten percent of every sub unit, so they couldn't all be put in say transport Pl or the RP section. So we were expected to leave behind Riflemen, in many cases with a tour under their belt already, to take a TF soldier with little experience.
Most of the TF taken were Senior Non-Commissioned Officers who were reduced in rank, mainly to Private. Basically a TF SNCO's experience amounted to that of a Privates in the real world. But when a TF Infantry Corp training is three weeks long compared to the RF's thirteen weeks, thats hardly suprising is it?. You can imagine how a professional soldier would feel being left behind so an amateur can get a trip overseas. And their performance over there was hardly stellar.
We'd be better off binning the TF and standing up another RF Infantry battalion.

My beliefs may seem harsh but soldiering isn't a hobby, its a profession. Funds are always tight in any peace time army. Squandering money on 'soldiers' who train for one night a month and two weeks a year is stupidity.

[grendel]

http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/image-gallery/031209/mraaw.jpg

;) the new Kiwi airforce?



NZ jet jockey 1: Where the feck ere those Aussie F/A 18s?

NZ jet jockey 2: Looket thet bro, I think I'm in looove!

NZ jet jockey 3: Geve es a look, geve es a look! Aw, et's just a flook of sheep...



:lol:

[digrar]

This is off topic a bit but I agree. Reserves would be best served in units where civilian skills can cross over to military tasks like, medics, MPs, plant operators, bandies, loggies, lawyers, doctors.
It has been said that the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than of any other arm.
It takes about the same amount of time to bring a civvy up to speed as a reservist Infantry soldier, so the time and money spent training Infantry reserves is mostly wasted.

[angry cow]

Went to New Zealand this summer, nicest people I've ever met. Got to hold the Bledsole Cup too because we were staying in the same hotel as the All Blacks. Wow, a 4000 man army. I feel for you guys since it must be hard to get budget percentage. But like all soldiers I'm sure you guys do your best with what you got. At least those Maori guys can intimidate the hell out of the enemy. IE: :fork: :fork: :fork:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.army.mil.nz/images/functions/photogallery/NZLAVIII02/LAV3.JPG
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An LAV conducts a training exercise on the plains of Rohan

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

The third battalion rotation to ET was based on two battery's of arty re-roled to infantry, plus a leavening of TF. The 'experiment' failed miserably.
The sub-units of that rotation rarely if ever left the roads whilst on 'patrol' and pretty much ceded the countryside to whoever wanted it. As a result the locals lost faith with PKF and most of the good work of the previous two rotations went to waste.

Yeah we get precisely two tenths of F%$#K all budget wise. Its about 1% of our GDP.

In Timor we used to tell the Indo's that Maori had been cannibals in the not too distant past, scared the **** out of them.

That photo was taken in our main training area of Waiouru which interestingly enough served as scenery in the LOTR movies so your not far off.

[LongWayToTheTop]

You don't understand the unique relationship between Kiwi's and Aussies. :hug: We're about as close as two countrys can get but to hear us talk sometimes you'd almost think we're at war :backhand: . It's peculiar to our culture but we insult and swear at even our most respected friends.

I remember the first time I drank with a group of Americans. It was at a bar in our camp and a mate of mine was sitting down with a group of African-Americans. I hadn't seen him all day so I walked over and by way of greeting said 'hey where've you been ya black c%$t'. The Americans at the table were horrified, but then when my mate put his arm around me and preceded to give as good as he'd got they were completely stunned. I was told later that they looked like spectators at a tennis match, mouths open, heads turning form side to side as each of us fired a new volley. Thats just the way we are. I would'nt take it personally because at the end of the day, he's only an Australian......... :-*$


hahaha yeah we get along very well, but when the rugby is on we don't get along too well until after the match :D

[LongWayToTheTop]

Ive heard some Kiwis just join the ADF rather then the NZDF just depends aye.

[Ballistic]

New Zealand has an Army?

Jks :)

Wow...way to sound like a moron Australian Stereotype. You've just reinforced everything I thought Australians were.

Stupid, lazy, stupid, braggards.

Pfft Looks like someone cant take a joke aye, he was only kidding around and Australians are some of the Nicest people in the world so if you start saying that **** your the old Stupid, Lazy, Pathetic bastard here.

It was a bad joke...a very stupid ignorant one that pissed me off. You here Aussies ragging on Americans, but then they go off and do the same thing. so PFFFFFFFFFT!

Heh....sorry mate, you havent got a clue. :bash: Ngati summed it up pretty well. Except for that last part. :D :P

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Yeah a lot of guys service change to the ADF. I've got KIWI mates serving in 1, 2, 3 and 4 RAR and SASR.

More opportunity, if you can stand the accent..... ;)

[fantassin]

The French Mistral MANPADS is currently one of the most succesful Western system of its type. It's in service in France, Spain, Belgium, Hungary, Italy, Oman to name just a few. It has won just about every competition it has entered since being offered for export.

So it is definitly the best choice, especially if it's coming from New Zealand, a country well known for being particularly anti-France which would not have chosen a french system if it could have helped it.

[fantassin]

The French Mistral MANPADS is currently one of the most succesful Western system of its type. It's in service in France, Spain, Belgium, Hungary, Italy, Oman to name just a few. It has won just about every competition it has entered since being offered for export.

So it is definitly the best choice, especially if it's coming from New Zealand, a country well known for being particularly anti-France which would not have chosen a french system if it could have helped it.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

So it is definitly the best choice, especially if it's coming from New Zealand, a country well known for being particularly anti-France which would not have chosen a french system if it could have helped it.

A comment like that explains why so many people think the french are a generally arrogant race.

If you knew anything at all about New Zealand or her people you wouldn't have written that. What makes you so sure that our country is Anti-french?, how many Kiwi's have you spoken too?. Does our country 'hate' yours, no. But on the other hand we don't think very highly of your nation either.

Why?

Well lets lay out some facts shall we..

World Wars I and II, New Zealand sends tens of thousands of troops to france and europe to fight directly an in-directly on YOUR country's behalf. New Zealand lost more soldiers in WWI than ANY other country.

Did we ask for anything in return?......no.

But what did you give us anyway?,

Nuclear weapons testing in our back yard and then your incompetent Intellgence apparatus, the DGSE I believe, on the orders of your morally righteous government commits a crime, a terrorist bombing no less, in our busiest harbour by sinking an un-armed boat used by peace protesters. And then to top it off your countries pathetic excuse for Intelligence/Special Operation forces compromise themselves and two are captured and imprisoned.

CLAP CLAP CLAP.


Keep writing ****head, I'm enjoying reading you dig a hole.

The Mistral Manpads was chosen for a number of reasons, the fact that it was french made had nothing to do with it.

We also use US made equipment, but we continue to ban nuclear armed/powered ships from entering our waters. The US don't like that, to the point of cutting us out of ANZUS amongst other things, but we as a nation don't care. We do what WE feel is right. We're not prejudiced for or against any one nation, race or religion no matter what you might read or hear, but.........if we don't like what you've got to say or what you do we'll let you know. Another example is how we as a nation were one of the first to commit combat troops to the war on terror, a lot sooner than france. But on the other hand we didn't agree with a US led invasion of Iraq, we'd have prefered the UN to lead it.

We as a Nation tend to follow our own path and we don't particularly care what nations such as france think of us. But I'll tell you what, if france gets invaded AGAIN, I think its more than likely our isolated little country would commit troops to fight, and no doubt die, for you, AGAIN.

Gotta tell you though, its getting a little tiresome.

Oh, could you do me a favour flatulence or whatever your name is, could you go out into your precious flanders field and tell me exactly how many of my countrymen are buried there having given their lives for your future. Thanks pal, I haven't been there yet but if the past is anything to go by I'll no doubt have to front up in a professional capacity sooner or later.

PS, I'll check our war cemeteries for the names of frenchmen who've died protecting our country but i don't think i'll have much success.

Funny that............

[Micke]

http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/image-gallery/031209/mraaw.jpg

;) the new Kiwi airforce?



NZ jet jockey 1: Where the feck ere those Aussie F/A 18s?

NZ jet jockey 2: Looket thet bro, I think I'm in looove!

NZ jet jockey 3: Geve es a look, geve es a look! Aw, et's just a flook of sheep...



:lol:
That joke of yours reflects your intelligence. Basically what you just said was that the Ausie F/A18s look like a flock of sheep. :lol:

[Micke]

But yeh, easy mistake, mate. Sheep...Australians...whats the difference. :)

[Ballistic]

rofl

They just keep on coming !

rofl rofl

[Glock]

I have a Question wich Versions of the Steyr AUG the New Zelland Army use? I say Steyr AUG A1 and Stexr AUG Commando withe a 14 inch Barrel on Pictures and did they also use other Versions? And wich Pistol they use? I heard about FN HP and SIG Sauer P226.
Greatings from Austria Leo

[oldsoak]

another question - what sort of webbing do the kiwis use ? Is it based on the US alice system ?
rgds

[fantassin]

Down from your soapbox?
Thanks, that was quite entertaining. Anyway, I agree with most of what you are saying since I am well aware of the reasons why the Kiwis don't like the French, Rainbow Warrior, nuke tests and all.
That's probably the reason why the NZ secret services (External Assessment Bureau, Gvt Communication Security Bureau (part of the US Echelon System), the Directorate of Defence Intelligence and the NZ Security Intelligence Service) are and have been for a long time geared towards actions against the French interests in the region (Tahiti and New Caledonia).

So, the point was, and still is, that for NZ to have chosen a system from a country it actively loathes means the system must be really very good.

No more no less; for the rest, you can keep on venting your frustration as much as you want, no problem.

One last note; during WW1, the different contingents were not defending France; France was the Northern European battlefield with Belgium; France, when it sent a contingent to Italy in 1916 or to Bulgaria and Romania in 1917 never claimed it was "defending" those countriues; it was just another place to combat a common ennemy.

One of the reasons why 1,375,000 French soldiers were KIA during WW1

[marktigger]

or maybe with mistral the french did their usual Bribing to get sales.

[LongWayToTheTop]

Yeah a lot of guys service change to the ADF. I've got KIWI mates serving in 1, 2, 3 and 4 RAR and SASR.

More opportunity, if you can stand the accent..... ;)



What the Kiwi accents? :P fish and chops?

[fantassin]

When it comes to bribing, the world knows the brits are the masters; the Tornado contract for saudi arabia in the 80s still remains THE example of how to get the maximum out of a military sale; everybody in the Conservative establishment got its share, down to Mark Thatcher...for a plane that even the RAF choose to retire early when it had the chance, keeping the much older Jaguar Gr7 over the Tornado Ids in several Squadrons.

Considering the amount of sales the Mistral has achieved so far, if it was through bribery, it would have cost the industrial a lot...it just happens to be, at the moment, one of the best system around.

Get over it, there is nothing wrong in using french equipment, a lot of countries do it....the US, Australia, NZ, Italy....even the UK Army Air Corps pilots are now all trained on French Ecureuil AS 350 helicopters.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Hello leo, to answer your question NZDF uses the 20inch, 16inch and 14inch barrel versions of the Steyr AUG. The A1 is in service as well. The service pistol is the Sig Sauer P-226.

Old soak, we use a locally designed system made from DPM cordura. We stole a few ideas from the brit issue webbing including the harness but theres a few other influences as well. There is also an issue vest. Both systems tend to get modified extensively by individual soldiers.

Fish and chops?, don't you mean fish and cheeeps




Ah flatulence,

CLAP CLAP CLAP

Down from your ivory tower yet?.

That's probably the reason why the NZ secret services (External Assessment Bureau, Gvt Communication Security Bureau (part of the US Echelon System), the Directorate of Defence Intelligence and the NZ Security Intelligence Service) are and have been for a long time geared towards actions against the French interests in the region (Tahiti and New Caledonia).

So, the point was, and still is, that for NZ to have chosen a system from a country it actively loathes means the system must be really very good.


Lots of big words and titles in there but how about giving us some evidence of this 'active loathing' as you so melodramatically put it. 'Geared towards actions' doesn't quite cut it.

Are you suggesting perhaps that our nation of a whopping four million people is attempting to subvert or even perhaps overthrow yours........... rofl

I'm a fan of Mel Gibson and I think Julia Roberts is a great actress, but 'Conspiracy Theory' was only a movie.

Listen hua, the only "active loathing" that has been undertaken is by elements of your country against ours. Just because your much vaunted DGSE and attached Spec Ops operatives got bitch slapped by a poor, isolated, relatively inexperienced country languishing at the bottom of the world doesn't give you the right to take your frustration out on us.

Get over it.

Your country commited a terrorist act in the form of a bombing which killed a man who'd done nothing more than take photographs. It commited this terrorist act in a sovereign nation. Thats a fact. Until you can come up with some facts to back your unsubstantiated claims you're wasting your time.


you can keep on venting your frustration as much as you want, no problem.


Frustation?, as in I can't get over the fact that my 'super power' of a country got 'down troued' by little old NZ in front of the entire world?.
But thanks, I'll take that to mean you won't send any frogmen down here to blow up my 16ft 'tinnie' this summer.....

One last note; during WW1, the different contingents were not defending France; France was the Northern European battlefield with Belgium; France, when it sent a contingent to Italy in 1916 or to Bulgaria and Romania in 1917 never claimed it was "defending" those countriues; it was just another place to combat a common ennemy.

But didn't I write,
New Zealand sends tens of thousands of troops to france and europe

Oh yeah i did.

This is all very amusing Flatulence, really it is. You can twist it around any way you want but all you're managing to do is reinforce the stereotype of the arrogant frenchmen.

But hey, its your hole....

[Scrim]

fantassin wrote

Get over it, there is nothing wrong in using french equipment, a lot of countries do it....the US, Australia, NZ, Italy....even the UK Army Air Corps pilots are now all trained on French Ecureuil AS 350 helicopters.
Dont forget Iraq.

[ShotOver]

Wow, this is the most pissed of i have ever seen some new Zealanders.. well apart from that time they lost their sheep..

:|

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Nah, this is nothin', you shoulda been here when chappell(?) bowled under arm.......

Anyway haven't you got a kangaroo that needs tieing down sport?. :D

[ShotOver]

hahahaha, see someone can take a joke.

Just havin` bit of fun mate :hug:

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Right back at ya ,bro ;)

[fantassin]

Short people and small countries always have the same chip on their shoulder...

Not my fault if NZ is stuck in a 1950s time warp and has to be rude to be heard....but keep up the anger therapy, after all, it might just work.

Ah, by the way, the next Paris Air Show is in 2004, so if you want to see what an air force looks like, feel free.

[Ballistic]

Short people and small countries always have the same chip on their shoulder...

Not my fault if NZ is stuck in a 1950s time warp and has to be rude to be heard....but keep up the anger therapy, after all, it might just work.

Ah, by the way, the next Paris Air Show is in 2004, so if you want to see what an air force looks like, feel free.

BWAHAHAHAHA !!!!! rofl Ooooooooh MERCY!!!!! :lol:

[Ballistic]

Nah, this is nothin', you shoulda been here when chappell(?) bowled under arm.......

Anyway haven't you got a kangaroo that needs tieing down sport?. :D

:lol: Love it, keep them coming !!!!! rofl

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Short people and small countries always have the same chip on their shoulder...


Again, suppositions with no factual base.


Not my fault if NZ is stuck in a 1950s time warp and has to be rude to be heard

Rude?.


New Zealand, a country well known for being particularly anti-France


NZ to have chosen a system from a country it actively loathes


NZ secret services ...are and have been for a long time geared towards actions against the French interests ...

All these accusations and not a shread of evidence to back yourself up with. The only country with a chip on its shoulder here is france with its terrorist act against a friendly nation.

You though have displayed yourself to be the stereotypical frenchman, bleating on and on about how other countries don't like you whilst conveniently overlooking the FACT's.
Its not that we as a country don't like you or even hate you, your country isn't worthy of that much emotion.

No, to be accurate we just hold you and yours in the utmost contempt. That might be difficult for your ego to deal with but take solace from the fact that there are plenty of other countries that feel the same.




if you want to see what an air force looks like, feel free

If your Intelligence( rofl )/Special operations forces in particular or your military in general are anything to go by I reckon I'd be better off going to the circus, at least the clowns are supposed to **** up.

PS..... NZ is stuck in a 1950s time warp ......

Niiiiiiice comeback :cantbeli:

[fantassin]

I am convinced that you would not be half as agressive and angry if your women weren't as butch and masculine.

I suppose a life of shearing sheep while wearing a dungaree does not help.

Anyway, I hope you aren't feeling too lonely on your island; considering the time you are wasting on rants and rave, you must be a pretty sad individual.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Oh, the slings and arrows.......

Again with the stereotyping, no wonder your military has such a poor history of achievement. And still you won't answer my questions. Why not?. Truth to hard to face?, or are unsubstantiated presumptions more comfortable for you.

Such arrogance to think you can comment in a derogatory manner on a man's country and not have him reply in kind. But on the other hand, so indicative of your countrys general attitude towards others. So really not very suprising.

Interesting that you can accuse us of being aggressive when it was your country that attacked ours......... denial, I believe the term is, or perhaps deluded would be more accurate.
Anyway, you are correct, we are a very aggressive people, you should see our Infantry in the assault. Just think of all the wars your country could have won if only you had grown a spine.

I'm quite happy to admit my countries failings flatulence, (not that we have any that can match france's) but I find it interesting that you can not admit to yours. Don't waste your pity on me, your in far more need of it than I.


suppose a life of shearing sheep while wearing a dungaree does not help.

Very original....... About as witty as a joke on smelly cheese.

[fantassin]

If I was not a grown up, I would say "you started it" by calling me a ****head in your first answer....

But being magnanimous towards the insignificant, I will grace you with one last answer.

See a therapist or you will develop an ulcer; so much anger can't do you good.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Oh, so you can't remember how it started?,

You wrote

New Zealand, a country well known for being particularly anti-France

To which I replied


What makes you so sure that our country is anti-french?, how many Kiwi's have you spoken to?.

You attacked my country so I defended it, a novel idea for the french I know so I can see why you can't understand it.

And you STILL won't answer my questions........


the insignificant

A matter of perspective, as in your country found it significantly embarrassing to have their incompetant attempt at a covert operation unveiled for all the world to see. By our 'insignificant' country.

And still you confuse contempt for anger.


I will grace you with one last answer.


Still playing up to your countries stereotype. Running away with your tale between your legs.

How predictable.......

[Haiw]

Kiwis taste great. The fruity ones I mean.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Ahhh bite me, oh wait noooooo!........

[Uncle Chô]

Kiwis taste great. The fruity ones I mean.

http://web.media.mit.edu/~yivanov/acton/Fun/Images/kiwi.gif

Oldies but goodies ;)

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Q: How many french soldiers does it take to defend paris?.

A: Nobody knows, its never been done before.

Older and better.

[Uncle Chô]

Q: How many french soldiers does it take to defend paris?.

A: Nobody knows, its never been done before.

Older and better.
:| Hey Ngati, don't involve me in your own little war between you and "Fantassin" I have nothing to do with him nor I support what he wrote (believe it or not).

I have this drawing in my files for several years now because I find it FUNNY, be the Kiwi from NZ, Inguchi or Zimbabwe. When someone wrote about eating a kiwi it came straight to my mind. That's all. Control yourself. Your reaction is just pathetic :cantbeli: ...

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Aw c'mon, my wee water buffalo riding friend, it was just a joke. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

Me an Flatulence aren't really at war, it's more of a re-enactment, sorta Blitzkrieg circa 1940ish. He played his part well, 'arrogant french completely underestimate opponents and get steam rollered',.... again....... rofl

I have nothing against the French in general, my unit recently hosted a platoon of marine/Parachutiste's(?) from Tahiti, good guys(can't drink to save themselves though), however some french in particular seem to revel in being as arrogant as humanly possible.

Which funnily enough is how a lot of the world views them.

And yes, the same can be said of Americans, Germans, Brits, Aussies etc. They all have stereotypes relating to their countries and possess certain individuals who seem to enjoy portraying those stereotypes. especially the negative ones.

As i've stated, if you dump on my country when your own ain't that flash or make definitive statements about that which you have no personal/practical experience with then we'll have words.

And I'm not predjudiced towards any country in particular, including my own. Just have a look at some of my earlier posts regarding Gazb.

[hahaha]

Kiwis are a good bunch of people, except the JetBoat drivers. Those ****ers are certifiable..

[Jack Mehoff]

I dated a kiwi girl before and i think they are nice people except the ones still eating human flesh.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Mmmmmmm.........flesh, tastes like chicken, goes well with a nice Chianti.

[uTu]

however some french in particular seem to revel in being as arrogant as humanly possible.
from living with a few French dudes, I've found the same. More of a fun game than anything serious eh ;)

[uTu]

In general they're amateurs who waste time, money and resources. There's always the exception, usually ex-RF, but other than enthusiasm they don't bring anything useful to the equation.
From the third rotation too Timor onwards it was decided that ten percent of every deploying Battalion would be TF, and that meant ten percent of every sub unit, so they couldn't all be put in say transport Pl or the RP section. So we were expected to leave behind Riflemen, in many cases with a tour under their belt already, to take a TF soldier with little experience.
Most of the TF taken were Senior Non-Commissioned Officers who were reduced in rank, mainly to Private. Basically a TF SNCO's experience amounted to that of a Privates in the real world. But when a TF Infantry Corp training is three weeks long compared to the RF's thirteen weeks, thats hardly suprising is it?. You can imagine how a professional soldier would feel being left behind so an amateur can get a trip overseas. And their performance over there was hardly stellar.
We'd be better off binning the TF and standing up another RF Infantry battalion.

My beliefs may seem harsh but soldiering isn't a hobby, its a profession. Funds are always tight in any peace time army. Squandering money on 'soldiers' who train for one night a month and two weeks a year is stupidity.
Hi mate, I've just started as a Territorial. Apparently we are here to be ready to deploy to fill the operational numbers. What would you find agreeable in terms of combat readiness? cheers

[digrar]

Don't expect a answer in the near future mate, the big fellah is away on business.

[cobalt545]

http://www.army.mil.nz/images/functions/photogallery/NZLAVIII02/LAV3.JPG[/img]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An LAV conducts a training exercise on the plains of Rohan

I'm surprised they still have the admin box on the back deck. We always take them off on ex so we can have a 6400 mil arc of fire/observation.

[Mailman]

I guess its still there because its a PR shot maybe?

Regards

Mailman

[h_rnzir]

Utu

what ngati wrote is exactly the same feelings that i share and speaking from experiencethe TF are enthusiastic but lack in experience and skills.
You are not ready to fill operational numbers as it would take most TF soldiers 6-8 months to competently operate effectively as a member of a infantry rifle section....yes it is a big step coming from TF to RF infantry.

as ngati said why send a TF soldier as a "PR" thing (because thats all it is) when you have more than capable RF soldiers who have been replaced because of this damn 10% quota deal.

When my company deployed to the solomon islands on 7 days notice there was no way a TF soldier could have just slotted into a rifle section.

Simple Fact of the matter to be combat ready...join the regs..

[DarkCypher]

Wow this topic is nearly 2 years old... :cantbeli:

[2S2P5B]

Malo, nice to see the TF/RF bias still in effect. Being TF is harder then being RF because your constantly having to prove your worth to not only the TF batt's but also the RF battalions and theres a general dislike for any soldier that doesnt have a diamond on his sleeve.

Of course as has been stated there are exceptions, give or take 1 in 10 TF can actually perform as this "professional soldier" theres also exceptions in 1RNZIR where your almost certain 1 in 10 RF soldiers lack in skills they need to "be" a professional soldier but because RF are full time soldiers those things arent commonly taken into account with the TF/RF issues.

A TF soldier can pretty much be the same as an RF soldier, as TF you have to work alot harder to gain the recognition but you dont have to be with the Regs. to be professional and competent at what you do.

As for the kit, better kit would be nice but us kiwi's are known for being able to adapt in any situation with what we have to provide an acceptable outcome. A change in issue vests would be good as the 2 versions I have would be alright for vehicle use but doing an assault in open country would be a bit harsh on the abdomen/chest region.

Years ago the NZDF was looking at replacing the p226 but I guess they found nothing that met their criteria, obviously being a sidearm that didnt cost the earth, was reliable and lightweight and had stopping power not all out target destruction. Need to get rid of the Unimogs too as it sickens me when theres a death of a soldier involving the Mogs and its generally put down to driver error... the only error the driver made was getting in the Unimog and setting it in motion but the NZDF heirachy refuse to see it that way, they believe a vehicle thats better suited to the offroad terrain will handle like a sports car on the differing road surfaces and states :roll:

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

In general they're amateurs who waste time, money and resources. There's always the exception, usually ex-RF, but other than enthusiasm they don't bring anything useful to the equation.
From the third rotation too Timor onwards it was decided that ten percent of every deploying Battalion would be TF, and that meant ten percent of every sub unit, so they couldn't all be put in say transport Pl or the RP section. So we were expected to leave behind Riflemen, in many cases with a tour under their belt already, to take a TF soldier with little experience.
Most of the TF taken were Senior Non-Commissioned Officers who were reduced in rank, mainly to Private. Basically a TF SNCO's experience amounted to that of a Privates in the real world. But when a TF Infantry Corp training is three weeks long compared to the RF's thirteen weeks, thats hardly suprising is it?. You can imagine how a professional soldier would feel being left behind so an amateur can get a trip overseas. And their performance over there was hardly stellar.
We'd be better off binning the TF and standing up another RF Infantry battalion.

My beliefs may seem harsh but soldiering isn't a hobby, its a profession. Funds are always tight in any peace time army. Squandering money on 'soldiers' who train for one night a month and two weeks a year is stupidity.
Hi mate, I've just started as a Territorial. Apparently we are here to be ready to deploy to fill the operational numbers. What would you find agreeable in terms of combat readiness? cheers

Congratulations mate.

Your question is difficult for me to answer without knowing what Corp you're in. If you mean Infantry then my personal opinion is that you need at least two years of training before you are sufficiently ready to deploy on operations. Three would be better. More money and less bull**** ie, parades, displays etc, would cut that time down.


2S2P5B wrote,

Malo, nice to see the TF/RF bias still in effect. What do you do for a living?, if I was to practise your job for maybe one month a year and then come in for a big project and take over your position which you had been training in for years would'nt you be a little put out? Being TF is harder then being RF Bull****.
because your constantly having to prove your worth to not only the TF batt's but also the RF battalions and theres a general dislike for any soldier that doesnt have a diamond on his sleeve. Bull****

Of course as has been stated there are exceptions, give or take 1 in 10 TF can actually perform as this "professional soldier" theres also exceptions in 1RNZIR where your almost certain 1 in 10 RF soldiers lack in skills they need to "be" a professional soldier but because RF are full time soldiers those things arent commonly taken into account with the TF/RF issues. Yeah, how can you be 'almost certain' 1 in 10 RF soldiers lack in skills they need to "be" a professional soldier?, served in 1 or 2/1 RNZIR have you?
There is no crossover between the civilian and military 'worlds' in terms of Infantry skill sets. Its difficult even for non-infantry professional soldiers to perform effectively as Riflemen, as the performance of Batt 3 in ET illustrated. How can a three week TF Infantry Corp training compare to a thirteen week one? and thats just the initial training period.
A TF soldier can pretty much be the same as an RF soldier, non-infantry maybe. as TF you have to work alot harder to gain the recognition but you dont have to be with the Regs. to be professional and competent at what you do. No argument there.

As for the kit, better kit would be nice but us kiwi's are known for being able to adapt in any situation with what we have to provide an acceptable outcome. A change in issue vests would be good as the 2 versions I have would be alright for vehicle use but doing an assault in open country would be a bit harsh on the abdomen/chest region.

Years ago the NZDF was looking at replacing the p226 but I guess they found nothing that met their criteria, Nope, the P226 only came into service in 92/93, its had no complaints and hasn't/isn't due for replacement till sometime at the earliest. obviously being a sidearm that didnt cost the earth, actually when it was purchase it was one of the most expensive in its class. was reliable and lightweight and had stopping power not all out target destruction. Need to get rid of the Unimogs too as it sickens me when theres a death of a soldier involving the Mogs and its generally put down to driver error... the only error the driver made was getting in the Unimog and setting it in motion but the NZDF heirachy refuse to see it that way, they believe a vehicle thats better suited to the offroad terrain will handle like a sports car on the differing road surfaces and states Yep, sooner we get rid of that POS the better.

The fact is Infanteering is a full time trade. You simply can't get the training needed to be a Rifleman as a civilian.

[digrar]

It has been said that:"the art of the Infantryman is less sterotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm". That is probably truer now than when Wavell first said it during the Second World War and if you're not doing it full time you're never going to really be on the pace.

[GazB]

Seeing as how this thread has risen from the dead can anyone run through the new Kit the RNZDF has added since the last post on the matter?

Anything serving members aren't happy with and think should be updated?

[uTu]

Congratulations mate.
Cheers Ngati! I'm looking forward to it - learning as much as I can about warfighting
I'm employed as a Rifleman and have just started so I can't make much comment though I'll take in what you guys have to say & go as hard as I can. Cheers Guys, thanks for your straightup feedback. :)

[digrar]

Try and nail the basics, parade at your unit as much as possible, do as many exercises as you can fit in and get all the experience you can.

[Mailman]

Utu

what ngati wrote is exactly the same feelings that i share and speaking from experiencethe TF are enthusiastic but lack in experience and skills.

You are not ready to fill operational numbers as it would take most TF soldiers 6-8 months to competently operate effectively as a member of a infantry rifle section....yes it is a big step coming from TF to RF infantry.

as ngati said why send a TF soldier as a "PR" thing (because thats all it is) when you have more than capable RF soldiers who have been replaced because of this damn 10% quota deal.


Good to see some attitudes never change rofl

Mailman

[Zorro C9]

Would you RF guys say going TF sigs is worthwhile? I'm nowhere near fit enough for inf and I wouldn't want to go into a less than effective trade (TF inf I mean).

[PrincessRAR]

No, its not replaceing the mog. Its replaceing the V8 landrover. About ten years to late.

hey mogs are great :| rofl

[marktigger]

nice to see the kiwis are buying NH90 had heard so many people saying they wanted blackhawks.

[NicNZ]

*mutters* I wanted Mi-24s :|

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Congratulations mate.
Cheers Ngati! I'm looking forward to it - learning as much as I can about warfighting
I'm employed as a Rifleman and have just started so I can't make much comment though I'll take in what you guys have to say & go as hard as I can. Cheers Guys, thanks for your straightup feedback. :)

As digrar stated, master the basics and you can't go wrong, even SF still practise TOETs.

Wheke C9 wrote,

Would you RF guys say going TF sigs is worthwhile? I'm nowhere near fit enough for inf and I wouldn't want to go into a less than effective trade (TF inf I mean).

There is only one standard of fitness in the army, it doesn't differenciate between trades.

Soldier first and tradesman second, so the saying goes. Patrols, OPs and even ambushes are considered all Corp responsibilities, which came as quite an unpleasant surprise to a few 'other' Corps in ET.
Asymetrical is the state of things on todays battlefield and every soldier regardless of trade must be able to fight. That has been preached by a minority in many western army's for years and OIF proved it,ie; the 507th Maintenance Coy.

You don't have to be an Olympic athlete to be an Infanteer, RF or TF. Unless you have a serious health problem then it is quite achievable.

RFL
G1 2.4km in 10 min, 30 pressups, 130 trunk curls

BFT
12k in 1 hr 50 min in FSMO not exceeding 1/3 your body weight, climb a 6 ft wall, climb a fifteen ft rope and firemans carry your oppo 50 metres.

Mailman wrote,

h_rnzir wrote:
Utu

what ngati wrote is exactly the same feelings that i share and speaking from experiencethe TF are enthusiastic but lack in experience and skills.

You are not ready to fill operational numbers as it would take most TF soldiers 6-8 months to competently operate effectively as a member of a infantry rifle section....yes it is a big step coming from TF to RF infantry.

as ngati said why send a TF soldier as a "PR" thing (because thats all it is) when you have more than capable RF soldiers who have been replaced because of this damn 10% quota deal.



Good to see some attitudes never change


It's not an 'attitude', it's a statement of fact. If you can't see or understand that then you musn't have any personal experience in the matter and are therefore relying on hearsay and urban myth, which would be a mistake on your part.

[EvanL]

Congratulations mate.
Cheers Ngati! I'm looking forward to it - learning as much as I can about warfighting
I'm employed as a Rifleman and have just started so I can't make much comment though I'll take in what you guys have to say & go as hard as I can. Cheers Guys, thanks for your straightup feedback. :)

As digrar stated, master the basics and you can't go wrong, even SF still practise TOETs.

Wheke C9 wrote,

Would you RF guys say going TF sigs is worthwhile? I'm nowhere near fit enough for inf and I wouldn't want to go into a less than effective trade (TF inf I mean).

There is only one standard of fitness in the army, it doesn't differenciate between trades.

Soldier first and tradesman second, so the saying goes. Patrols, OPs and even ambushes are considered all Corp responsibilities, which came as quite an unpleasant surprise to a few 'other' Corps in ET.
Asymetrical is the state of things on todays battlefield and every soldier regardless of trade must be able to fight. That has been preached by a minority in many western army's for years and OIF proved it,ie; the 507th Maintenance Coy.

You don't have to be an Olympic athlete to be an Infanteer, RF or TF. Unless you have a serious health problem then it is quite achievable.

RFL
G1 2.4km in 10 min, 30 pressups, 130 trunk curls

BFT
12k in 1 hr 50 min in FSMO not exceeding 1/3 your body weight, climb a 6 ft wall, climb a fifteen ft rope and firemans carry your oppo 50 metres.

Mailman wrote,

h_rnzir wrote:
Utu

what ngati wrote is exactly the same feelings that i share and speaking from experiencethe TF are enthusiastic but lack in experience and skills.

You are not ready to fill operational numbers as it would take most TF soldiers 6-8 months to competently operate effectively as a member of a infantry rifle section....yes it is a big step coming from TF to RF infantry.

as ngati said why send a TF soldier as a "PR" thing (because thats all it is) when you have more than capable RF soldiers who have been replaced because of this damn 10% quota deal.



Good to see some attitudes never change


It's not an 'attitude', it's a statement of fact. If you can't see or understand that then you musn't have any personal experience in the matter and are therefore relying on hearsay and urban myth, which would be a mistake on your part.
My good man!
How the **** have you been?
Hit me up with a pm

[NicNZ]

Hey, since the topic has come back to life, has anyone else noticed a white Mi-8 parked up for commercial (tourist?) use near Taupo? I was on my way south over Anzac weekend and saw it in the dawn light. It looked like an Mi-8... Anyone know anything more?

[marktigger]

this soldier first tradesman second comes up in every army. I'm now part of UK army medical services and all we here when we go on courses run by non medical units is we're soldiers first and clinicians second but the ethos in our corps is clinicians in uniform you are not soldiers at all.

Had a stand up row with an infantry wo2 who claimed I had to be able to identify a tank at 500 meters so i could engage it. I asked him with what and he replied that 500m is the engagement for the LAW94. When I responded that
1. I had never seen a LAW 94 and had no training to use it he kicked off about I should be ahsamed of myself as an officer for not attending training.
I pointed out to him that LAW 94 classifies as an offensive weapon and is not issued to medical services.
I also pointed out to him that on recent deployments medical services had been deployed without any small arms as they were deemed not to need them as their red cross would provide all the protection they needed.

He was incredulous.

So expecting Corps troops to do infantry work sometimes is a non starter and the infantry need to get it into their heads across the world that yes corps troops are trained to a certain level but.... The politics from within the corps may not allow them to work as soldiers first tradesmen second.

[obd]

Recruiting slogan for the NZ Air Force:

Be All You Can Be
Fly Fighter Jets
Travel the World
Join the Australian Air Force




ROFLMAO!!!!

[taiaha]

another question - what sort of webbing do the kiwis use ? Is it based on the US alice system ?
rgds

Some examples of Kiwi webbing:

http://www.westlorne.co.nz/catalog.phtml

[GazB]

Hey, since the topic has come back to life, has anyone else noticed a white Mi-8 parked up for commercial (tourist?) use near Taupo?

Don't know about tourist use but I have seen pics of a white painted Mi-8 and a white painted Ka-32 being used for selective logging operations.

[sickened]

The Mi-8 Parked up outside Taupo is set in concrete, it hasnt moved in 11 years or so... The Cafe it is now owned by makes really **** sandwiches...

[M1A2U2]

No one from france has the right to say anyhting negative about new zealands military

[NicNZ]

The Mi-8 Parked up outside Taupo is set in concrete, it hasnt moved in 11 years or so... The Cafe it is now owned by makes really **** sandwiches...

Mi-8 liberation operation in Taupo this weekend then. Who's in? p-)

"Who will fly it?"
"Bah! Details!"

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

this soldier first tradesman second comes up in every army. I'm now part of UK army medical services and all we here when we go on courses run by non medical units is we're soldiers first and clinicians second but the ethos in our corps is clinicians in uniform you are not soldiers at all.

Had a stand up row with an infantry wo2 who claimed I had to be able to identify a tank at 500 meters so i could engage it. I asked him with what and he replied that 500m is the engagement for the LAW94. When I responded that
1. I had never seen a LAW 94 and had no training to use it he kicked off about I should be ahsamed of myself as an officer for not attending training.
I pointed out to him that LAW 94 classifies as an offensive weapon and is not issued to medical services.
I also pointed out to him that on recent deployments medical services had been deployed without any small arms as they were deemed not to need them as their red cross would provide all the protection they needed.

He was incredulous.

So expecting Corps troops to do infantry work sometimes is a non starter and the infantry need to get it into their heads across the world that yes corps troops are trained to a certain level but.... The politics from within the corps may not allow them to work as soldiers first tradesmen second.

Mate, the realities of a modern battlefield are such that non-teeth arm corps must be able to fend for themselves in any situation. The Infantry are always going to be fairly busy to put it mildly, they can hardly be expected to provide protection party's for every other Corp.

The Geneva Conventions state (and no I can't quote the exact paragraph etc, but I did look it up years ago for a debate similar to this one) that every soldier on a battlefield has the right of self defence, that includes Medical personnel and Padres, etc. Medical personnel are also allowed to defend their patients. If your patients/RAP/FST etc, are being attacked by an AFV then a LAW 94 is the best way of dealing with if there isn't an MBT at hand. It can hardly be considered offensive. After all you would be DEFENDING your patients wouldn't you?

Politics within the Corp?

Mate, bull**** like that gets baggies/toms killed needlessly. It behoves YOU as an officer to sort it out because 'red tabbers' never listen to OR's, do they?

As I alluded to previously, the 507th Maintenance debacle in OIF. Previous to that the standard of field skills attained by US Army support troops was pretty low. Now after a lesson paid for in blood, their training has improved by several orders of magnitude, at least according to what I've read and heard. But I'm sure previous to March 2003 there were plenty of officers bemoaning 'Corp politics' and coming up with excuses as to why their Corp should have to learn and practise 'simple' Infantry skills.

Too bad men and women had to die to prove them wrong. As usual.

M1A2U2 wrote,

No one from france has the right to say anyhting negative about new zealands military

Don't worry about that ****wit, he just encapsulates every bad stereotype attributed to the french, from arrogance, through to running away from a fight.

[Mailman]

Good to see some attitudes never change


It's not an 'attitude', it's a statement of fact. If you can't see or understand that then you musn't have any personal experience in the matter and are therefore relying on hearsay and urban myth, which would be a mistake on your part.[/quote]

Its a statement of ignorance NT...nothing more, nothing less. Ive seen so many young 1Bn grunts who think they are gods gift to the battlefield write off their TF counterparts that the comparison was a joke when it came to doing the business. Just because you are RF doesnt neccessarily mean you are a better soldier than a TF per.

Mailman

[digrar]

I spent six months in a unit preparing for a deployment to East Timor. We were bolstered by about 200 Reservists from several reserve units around the country, all with varying degrees of experience. Some had many years in the reserves, some had a year full time service in the ready reserve plus part time service, some had just finished their initial employment training.
During that six months we had to concentrate on basic soldiering skills instead of more advanced training, after over 95% failed a basic mil skills bull ring on march in to the unit. Did all of the 200 odd reservist soldiers need that training? No. But over 95% did.
But in the end the reserves filled their role, we got them up to speed 6 months quicker than we could have done with raw recruits and they performed satisfactorily on deployment.
So from an Australian point of view the above mentioned attitude has been proven and not just by my unit, other units underwent similar intergrations. But we also have a degree of confidence in the reserves that wasn't there 5 years ago. I imagine the situation isn't much different across the Tasman.

[marktigger]

Nagati

Couldn't agree with you more but when you do put the case forward for proper military training you get told to pull your neck in.
As to LAW 94 and other support weapons it does open a huge can of worms following the deaths of the 6 RMP guys in Iraq the recomendation is that all support services should have a support machinegun either minimi or GPMG and I can see the horror on the faces of the AMS command who would rather we went unarmed. Iraq has openend a few eyes who until recently had their heads buried deep in the sand.

with the changes to trades a whole lot of former CMT(V) will probably become the guard forces to medical instalations.Replacing the TA infantry who are actually ment to be according to all HQ's ment to do it.

[h_rnzir]

Just because you are RF doesnt neccessarily mean you are a better soldier than a TF per.

No ..but RF are better trained...i've experienced soldiering as TF and RF and i still will say that there is a big difference between the two!!

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Good to see some attitudes never change


It's not an 'attitude', it's a statement of fact. If you can't see or understand that then you musn't have any personal experience in the matter and are therefore relying on hearsay and urban myth, which would be a mistake on your part.

Its a statement of ignorance NT...nothing more, nothing less. Ive seen so many young 1Bn grunts who think they are gods gift to the battlefield write off their TF counterparts that the comparison was a joke when it came to doing the business. Just because you are RF doesnt neccessarily mean you are a better soldier than a TF per.

Mailman[/quote]

Its not a pissing contest. Its a not a matter of whos 'better'. Its a matter of who has had more training and experience before they deploy on operations. As digrar pointed out, when TF level troops are incorporated into an RF formation the whole unit must take a step back to account for their skill level.

Thats unacceptable.

Pre-deployment training should consist of exercises designed to advance the skill sets of the individual soldier, sub-unit and unit to a level where the leap to undertaking operations isn't insurmountable.
If the unit must devote time and resources to bringing a minority to a basic level of skill then there will be that much less to be spent on bringing the rest of the unit to the advanced level necessary for them to operate effectively on the battlefield.


Think about it from the point of view of an RF Infanteer who has spent years learning and then revising the basics and when it becomes known that he is to deploy on operations, rather than get the opportunity to push his skill sets to an advanced standard, he instead has to watch the bulk of his units time and resources spent on lifting the standards of a few who chose not to spend their entire time learning the trade, but instead devote only part of their time.

Of course there would be resentment.

And if you yourself haven't been in that situation, then you have no right to judge.

MARK.TIGGER wrote,

Nagati

Couldn't agree with you more but when you do put the case forward for proper military training you get told to pull your neck in.
As to LAW 94 and other support weapons it does open a huge can of worms following the deaths of the 6 RMP guys in Iraq the recomendation is that all support services should have a support machinegun either minimi or GPMG and I can see the horror on the faces of the AMS command who would rather we went unarmed. Iraq has openend a few eyes who until recently had their heads buried deep in the sand.

with the changes to trades a whole lot of former CMT(V) will probably become the guard forces to medical instalations.Replacing the TA infantry who are actually ment to be according to all HQ's ment to do it.

I know. It happens in our army too. But as I said it behoves you and every other officer to keep pushing and not accept no for an answer. Its YOUR responsibility and YOUR duty. Quite simply the lives of your men and women will depend on it. As opposed to the lives of the red tabbers who order you to do it.

[uTu]

Seeing as how this thread has risen from the dead can anyone run through the new Kit the RNZDF has added since the last post on the matter?

Anything serving members aren't happy with and think should be updated?
edit = doh
that kevlar stuff sounds good