British forces can stand alone no longer

[budanski]

British Forces Can Stand Alone No Longer
The Scotsman (http://www.news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1359522003)

It ran to 28 pages — 64 if the supporting essays were included — of dense civil service double-speak. Long on words, short on detail, yesterday’s long-awaited defence white paper (Delivering Security in a Changing World) appeared intent on shedding as little light as possible on the nuts and bolts of defence planning, other than to reveal that for Britain’s armed forces, medium-sized is the new big.

But tucked away alongside the aspirations for a brave new world of rapid-reaction forces and hi-tech military solutions was one startling admission — Britain can no longer stand on its own two feet militarily. There will be no more Falklands, no more Suez: if Britain wants to take on another state, it will only do so if it has the United States by its side.

On this, at least, the white paper pulled no punches. "The most demanding expeditionary operations, involving intervention against state adversaries, can only plausibly be conducted if US forces are engaged, either leading a coalition or in NATO," it said.

The best the UK could hope for, it concluded, was that by going along with the Americans, the country might be able to have a say in how the operations were conducted.

"Where the UK chooses to be engaged, we will wish to be able to influence political and military decision making throughout the crisis, including during the post-conflict period. The significant military contribution the UK is able to make to such operations means that we secure an effective place in the political and military decision-making processes."

To do that, the armed forces needed to become, in essence, an adjunct of the US military. They had to be "interoperable with US command and control structures, match the US operational tempo and provide those capabilities that deliver the greatest impact when operating alongside the US".

And the blunt reappraisal of the UK’s dwindling military muscle continued. "The UK will not be able to make a military contribution to the response to every international crisis," it said. "Generally, where we are involved, we will respond in coalitions with other countries."

The only way to do that was to maintain existing alliances, develop new partnerships, seek and exploit political and military influence, and hope to ensure access for British forces in times of crisis.

Excerpted (http://www.news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1359522003)

Someone screwed up. Shouldnt it have been "...it will only do so if it has the EU by its side." instead of the U.S.?

[Fioraon]

Yeah, the EU and Defence Force. Now there's a gamble.

[USMarine3521]

oooo say it isn't so.........even still the brits have some of the best trained servicemen in the planet hopefully that won't change. :)

[Dalleer]

Can't make war without the US....quite sad I'd say.

[marktigger]

unfortunatley its looks like its true. Yet another Labour government has emasculated its armed forces. as happened in New Zealand, Australia, Canada etc etc.
Judging by other web groups morale is dropping through the floor again. Every other government department health,education,social security is getting huge increases in spending year on year to meet labour goals and is hoplessly failing the NHS now has more administration staff than trained nurses. And soon the ministry of defence will have more civil servants than service personell. Yet every other government consistantly fails to meet the demands placed upon it by the government except 1 Defence who excel and deliver the governments demands then deliver the savings demanded and in gratitude from the government are ruthlessly cut. Where is the leaders we need? I would sugest the CGS and all the top brass should resign in protest.

[steel bonnet]

Well at least they`ve actually said we cannot do ANOTHER Falklands war,after all the last one almost did us in :(

How the Mighty have crumbled.

Yep we have some of the best trained Regular soldiers in the world & then we have our Special Forces ontop of that :D
Though like anything Quality will only get you so far.

As for working alongside US forces to get the job done,well GW1 & GW2,Balklands have shown that this works.

Though with the way the current MoD is pretty Stretched,we wouldn`t be in a position to do much else that support.

As for the "mistake" some have said US instead of EU. Well personally,we`re over committed in that realm anyway. Though with the addition of several new nations & newer one`s to come,well the UK should be allowed to withdraw from those Joint forces,which should be followed with a total withdrawl from the EU itself.

If alas we`re to be partnered off to another Alliagance. Personally l think it should be with the US. As we have MORE in common with them than Europe.

Ja
Steel Bonnet

[DeltaWhisky58]

I can only echo what Jason has said here.

Perhaps the reason that our link to the US has been emphasised is that with the exception of Germany - who is constitutionally prevented from taking part in overseas actions unless UN-sposored - there are problably no other EU nations capable of automomous overseas action either. France may think it has the capability, but other than the odd African bush firefight, I would doubt their ability to participate anyhwere unless the odds were stacked very much in their favour. Some of our other EU-allies have troops of a very high calibre, e.g. Netherlands, Norway, Spain, but their budgetary contraints are even worse than those of the UK.

So, thanks to George Dubya's bosom buddy - Tony - we're stuffed.

...............and in so many cases the fuzzy-wuzzies are better armed (but not trained) than we are.

[marktigger]

so when the argentines land in port stanley in 2005 i hope there are enough spanish teachers available cause this time the task force can't come due to other engagemants.

[Roger Rabbit]

It's ok. The EU defence force will come steaming out of Portsmouth and head straight to the Falklands and valiently defeated the Facist aggressors. :roll:

[Royal]

And soon the ministry of defence will have more civil servants than service personell.

There have been more civil servants than service personell for years :(

[Royal]

And soon the ministry of defence will have more civil servants than service personell.

There have been more MoD civil servants than service personell for years :(

[marktigger]

It's ok. The EU defence force will come steaming out of Portsmouth and head straight to the Falklands and valiently defeated the Facist aggressors.

The French will refuse to go saying its all Britains fault and promptly sell huge ammounts of arms to argentina.

The spanish will demand that Gibraltar is handed over to them as well.

The Germans will state their constitution cannot allow them to send forces on an imperialist operation.

The Dutch would probably be game but their armed forces are being screwed up by their govt

The Irish will see it as an opportunity to push for the reunification of ireland

The Danes haven't the forces. The Norwegians Haven't the forces

The Greeks and Turks would invade the SBA's to liberate cyprus

And the Belgians would refuse to sell us any ammo

[marktigger]

Royal its crazy isn't it but then what do you expect of the british civil service. No wonder the military is in the state its in

[Royal]

Some civil servants play a vital role (& are often ex-forces themselves) e.g. the DIS staff, Analysts at JARIC, Burnham lecturers and the like, but overall... :(

[marktigger]

yes but there is also alot of useless mouths

[Tane Angle]

I think a good point is raised, how man European nations, or any nations, for that matter, can still fight a theatre level war if necessary? Not too many. Then again, looks like the US can't fight another one for a while either. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[UoUo]

I think a good point is raised, how man European nations, or any nations, for that matter, can still fight a theatre level war if necessary? Not too many. Then again, looks like the US can't fight another one for a while either. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

USA can easliy start another war...lets say in iran..while they fighting in iraq..and even to start another war in north korea in the same time.

(and i am talkin about pure war...no like what is going on in iraq...)

[martinexsquaddie]

oh well were just have to stop being sporting
One bucket of instant sunshine off the coast to prove a point next aimed at there Boss :lol:
thats the thing about trident brought so we could take out the kremiln's boss regardless of the yanks and any desire for a limited nuke exchange limited to europe.
soviets could kill uk hundreds of times but we could make sure the soviet high command roasted as well. Thats the thing about commies don't belive in heaven. unlike binladen george and certain american generals :(.
anyone belive we wouldn't do it has'nt read our history :P

[Hydro]

Again, the government has butt****ed the armed services. What happens if we fall out of favour with the US? What if the US falls out of favour with us? How the arse are we going to fight then? Don't say the EUDF, that's a joke. Downsizing because "we're going to fight with the US anyway" is disgusting. Why not fold our military into theirs then? Poor equipment, poor funding, run by ****ing politicians, it's no wonder our military has gone to pot.

Too many beancounters who have no experience of anything but how to stack paper and talk about "numbers" rather than men, vehicles, weapons. This is just the impression I get, I haven't "been there and done that"....yet.

[Roger Rabbit]

Its nothing new though. Back when Napolean was romping Europe than the British government was reluctant to give the army any money. Once it was all over then it was cut cut cuts again.

[Kitsune]

Well, going with the US is certainly the EASY way...they already have impressive military capabilites and the British just need to fit in.

But it would essentialy be a British chicken tucked under the wings of an American eagle. You may feel like a bird of prey, but you aren't

Fact is: The US do NOT need you. You need THEM. They can always tell you to bugger of if need be...and your possibilies of influencing the decision making process will be accordingly...limited. Very limited.
(Of course they can make it look grand...the American President meeting the British Prime Minister. They have a talk, "agree" on something, then the press conference...yeah. And your British diplomats will help them to make it look that way...to save face. And if you think about it, perhaps it has already come to this...)

The tougher, but in the long run wiser, choice is Europe. Steel Bonnet thinks you have more in common with the US than with Europe? Steel Bonnet like so many of his countryman has probably never been to Germany (for example). Well... I have seen the US and various European countries (including G.B.) and one thing is for sure: The Atlantic Ocean is wider than the channel. If you are in Britain, look at the people, the buildings, the streets you instantly KNOW you are in Europe...and not in the US. In fact, do not let the different languages fool you. Actually British, Dutch, Germans, Belgians...are very much alike. But see it for yourself!

Look at the opinion polls during the Iraq crisis...while the policies of the British, German and French governments did differ, the polls were astoundingly alike in all those countries. What do they think about GWB? Make a poll in Great Britain, Germany, Italy, France, Sweden...and you will find them very similar! But make a poll in the US....

Lets forego the blabla about our common history...what about economics? Grest Britains biggest trading partner isn't the US..its Germany or France. In fact Britains trades 3.5 times more with the Eurozone than with the USA! This is what is important to your and our prosperity. If G.Britain sinks into the Ocean it will affect Europe much more than the US. And this is the reason to depend on us, not on them.

And lets not forget: in a partnership with the Americans you will drown, they don't need you as stated. Europe DOES need Great Britain. The United Kingdom can be one of the "tier one " nations of the European Union. And if you engage, you do not need to fear an franco-german axis. Germans like the British as much as they like the French. Perhaps there will be an triangle. But you will have your say, you will not be dominated.

But of course: this way isn't easy. The farreaching military capabilites of the European Union have to be developed yet. There is no mighty expeditionary force waiting, where the British just have to hop in.
But Europe will enhance her military spending. The EU nations will defragmentalize their militaries. And the US on the other side simply cannot keep up the present level of military spending. In a few years their military budgets will be reduced again, I am sure of that. (And they will have hell to pay).
But it is the wise choice. Especially in the long run.
The best choice for Great Britain.


;)

[stephane from Paris]

Respect Man!

[cut]

But it would essentialy be a British chicken tucked under the wings of an American eagle. You may feel like a bird of prey, but you aren't


chicken?! that's harsh, kestrel surely.. or if you insist that we are not a bird of prey, sparrow but not a chicken please that's the french national symbol!

[marktigger]

yes and a one size fits all approach has certainly done the european economy good. Cept of course for France who as usual just ignore the rules. What will happen when a one size fits all constitution gets into trouble ??? I would say a civil war.

the Nations of europe have their own interests whis in many cases compete and what happens then?

Maybe the UK could actually afford decent forces if resources wern't wasted on the EU and the crap it produces as policy or paying the salaries of civil servants in Non jobs in Europe. Or paying lazy french farmers to commit fraud. Or having to pay for asylum seekers the french direct to come here!!!!

[stephane from Paris]

sorry guy, not chicken but **** , proud animal who fight very very hard!

[Roger Rabbit]

yes the french are a bunch of cocks


Its way too easy these days

[DeltaWhisky58]

sorry guy, not chicken but **** , proud animal who fight very very hard!

Turkeys spring to mind here!

[navylt]

[quote="UoUo

USA can easliy start another war...lets say in iran..while they fighting in iraq..and even to start another war in north korea in the same time.

(and i am talkin about pure war...no like what is going on in iraq...)[/quote]

As an active duty military planner, I have to ask you, what planet do you live on?! You are so off.

[The Walrus]

I think these defense cuts are realistic, Britain is no longer a major world power and the only way for Britain to go now is as an ally, either to the US or the EU, and as said before, whereas the EU and Britain need each other, the US doesn't need Britain and it is just naive/illusory to think that we have any influence whatsoever in Washington, if Tony Blair had opposed the war in Iraq Bush would have still gone in a heartbeat.
Personally I think that Britain has MUCH more in common with Europe than with the US, the desired balance between capitalism/socialism is virtually identical across Europe, and attempts to move it to a more American model (Thatcherism) have all been met with defiance.
If you look at opinions on a multitude of issues such as religion, welfare, foreign policy etc, public opinion across Europe, from England to Greece, is pretty similar.
That being said the unification of Europe (if it will ever happen) will be an extremely slow process as the only major incentive to do so is economic.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Very well put Kitsune, I feel we now have nothing more in common with the USA other than spoken english, I like Americans and Canadians but feel closer to Europe I deal with French, Belgians, Germans and Italians almost daily when I am working and feel little divides us these days.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Man that's really depressing. It's sad to see the mighty UK voluntarily give up so much. But as has been said, they don't have much choice - budgets being what they are.

Which brings me to - WTF is the British gov't thinking? They've saddled the country with a literally unbearable burden of social spending - and now they've reduced their military to the point where they admit it's inadequate. In my eyes, that's a betrayal. To depend upon other nations to defend you - that's a recipe for disaster. And the nuclear option is a non-option - how you gonna use that in the real world unless you're nuked first?

They have cradle to the grave medical insurance, free education through University, the most comprehensive social welfare system & loose immigration laws...of course they're broke. Who do they think is flocking to the country - the poor of Europe - for the endless handouts. Nobody with money would move there (except of course Madonna who we're glad to be rid of) - taxes are so high it would be financial suicide.

I've been a fan of Britain all my life - but I see this as the beginning of the end. I think it was a French politician in the late 1700's who said "democracy can only survive until the people discover they can vote themselves entitlements"...or something to that effect. Looks like it's happening & it's a shame.

[Argyll]

The writing was on the cards for the Armed Forces the day Tony the divvy,started to kiss Sinn Feinns arse!
The only effective way to make this work is to take a leaf out of the US book by increasing or even creating another SF type unit!The regular Infantry Batts should all be like the Para's/Marines ready to deploy immediately and be able to carry out the task without any familairisation/training etc.Each unit should be trained in Counter terror Ops .
I'd like to see a another dedicated unit taking the best Para's /Marines and Regular Inf Batts and making a dedicated Anti terror/Spec Ops unit,that can be deployed as such,as a whole fighting force of 1000 men.
Will it happen .......never cause the assholes running this country can't see in the dark,by having their heads up their arses!!

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Its not as bad as it looks 2Sheds I really think the UK is in some downward spiral, on the subject of military cuts well its not good news but it has been going on for some time, two of our local bases were down sized in the early 90's and most weapons trails have been put in the hands of private contractors. As for lack of gear the guy down the lane from me who is now in his 70's and a full term army man told me his grandson came back from the GW2 moaning about the lack of gear, he just said well nothing ever f*cking changes does it.

[Gringo]

The writing was on the cards for the Armed Forces the day Tony the divvy,started to kiss Sinn Feinns arse!
The only effective way to make this work is to take a leaf out of the US book by increasing or even creating another SF type unit!The regular Infantry Batts should all be like the Para's/Marines ready to deploy immediately and be able to carry out the task without any familairisation/training etc.Each unit should be trained in Counter terror Ops .
I'd like to see a another dedicated unit taking the best Para's /Marines and Regular Inf Batts and making a dedicated Anti terror/Spec Ops unit,that can be deployed as such,as a whole fighting force of 1000 men.
Will it happen .......never cause the assholes running this country can't see in the dark,by having their heads up their arses!!

They said that they were going to create a new unit similar to the US Rangers over a year ago. To support SAS operations.

[marktigger]

the sun is going on about 2 light bdes being formed I thought it was 1. the bdes being cut/reroled have been mentioned in media as 4 & 19. accrding to the BBC 4 will go mech and 19 will go light.

[DeltaWhisky58]

the sun is going on about 2 light bdes being formed I thought it was 1. the bdes being cut/reroled have been mentioned in media as 4 & 19. accrding to the BBC 4 will go mech and 19 will go light.

Sounds like typical media speculation to me, I'll believe what MoD/Military Brass are doing when they've actualy put it in place. Government/MoD will put proposals to the Brass, who will endeavour to implement them, and then some feck-up numpty desk driver in MoD will move the goal posts again thus taking us to another round of the downward spiral.

Net result, Britains armed forces will end up like those of Canada/Netherlands - great troops but totally underfunded and demoralised.

Then when tony the tosser finally gets his marching orders, there will be nothing much for his successors to revive.

[mocking_loudly_died]

Bah, Great Britain needs to stop being a bunch of poor pussies and take over the world again.

I have a shovel who's with me?.........CHARGE!!!!!!

[Royal]

I'd like to see a another dedicated unit taking the best Para's /Marines and Regular Inf Batts and making a dedicated Anti terror/Spec Ops unit,that can be deployed as such,as a whole fighting force of 1000 men.
Will it happen .......never cause the assholes running this country can't see in the dark,by having their heads up their arses!!

I think I've posted about this before. There are papers being written (the first stage of anything in the bloody puzzle palace that is the MoD) on the creation of a 'second tier' SF Bn to operate in a role similar to the 75th Ranger Rgt in the US and conduct some 'green' SF Ops. There have been rumours that one of the 3 Para Bn's will be reroled (and maybe even rebadged a la SBS).

I'm not sure how much of what I know is 'open source', so I will leave my comments at that for the time being.

[kinghk]

Some of our other EU-allies have troops of a very high calibre, e.g. Netherlands, Norway, Spain, but their budgetary contraints are even worse than those of the UK.


Norway is not a member of the EU.
Their soldiers might be of high calibre, but there is a big lack of quantity.

[marktigger]

I would asy that the paras and Marines are capable of doing that with very little modification. I mean Raiding is one of the tthingss 16 AA & 3Cdo are ment to do as their bread and butter.
Is part of the problem not at the Hereford end where standard creep has now made it so difficult to join that the SF guys are really short manned?