Israel-Palestine Conflict

[Javehn]

Hello
For the time i have been writting on this forum , i have meet strange accusations towards Israeli army , and the way it's operate in the so called "Palestinian territories " . Those accusations ranging from strange to redicolous (like the one i have read here yesterday ,that we are leveling entire villages just to find one armed man , and comparing us to ww2 SS troopers ) . Therefore i am opening this thread , where you can ask questions , and i , and all my colleagues that served in IDF (i hope you will be back soon , IDFM203 ) could answer on this question . I would prefer if you would ask less about Israel political issues and more questions that concirn every day work of IDF . I would love to answer on your question (provide they are not too much redicolous and stupid ) , like what are IDF's ROE , why IDF do it such a way . Why many bystanders getting injured , and so on . I , in my turn , would also like to keep it objective . Maybe it's the only way to change your strange point of view ...
You question will be appreciated , and despite my ****y English i would try to answer to you .

Thank you

[duck]

How many of the Israeli legal and illegal settlers in Gaza and the West Bank carry weapons? What typee of weapons do they carry? How many troops are based in these areas to protect the settlements? What kind of weapons and equipment do these troops xarry?

[UoUo]

How many of the Israeli legal and illegal settlers in Gaza and the West Bank carry weapons? What typee of weapons do they carry? How many troops are based in these areas to protect the settlements? What kind of weapons and equipment do these troops xarry?

1. we can't but is estimted that evrey almost every famile carry a least 1 cind of weapon.
2. M16 ... Uzi and Hand guns
3. don't know...soory
4. you mean by light weapons ?

Edit : all the weapons are under liscence from the Interior Affair Ministry or by special military liscence from the Ministry of Defence.

[ArmoredDov_D9]

How many of the Israeli legal and illegal settlers in Gaza and the West Bank carry weapons? What typee of weapons do they carry? How many troops are based in these areas to protect the settlements? What kind of weapons and equipment do these troops xarry?

Large part of the settlers aren't armed. The settlers that are do carry arm do that by an gun liscence from the Interior Affair Ministry or by special military liscence from the Ministry of Defence. Most of the settlements have a civilian guard unit ("Kitat Konenut") which secures the settlement and gives immidiate intial answer to terrorist threats. The civilian guard units are usually armed with M16s, Mini-Uzis and pistols and use them only for purposes of seld defence.

[duck]

Ok, and thanks for answering. Do you have any estimate on how handguns etc. are dístributed among the palestinians? Security officers, terrorists etc. What would be the origin of the palestinian weapons?

[UoUo]

Ok, and thanks for answering. Do you have any estimate on how handguns etc. are dístributed among the palestinians? Security officers, terrorists etc. What would be the origin of the palestinian weapons?

The first part of your questions i don't know...the seccend part is like that : most of the weaopns that the palstinian use come from Egept...the thunels in "rafih" a arab city in the border of Israel and Egept...some weaopns came from israel in part of the "peace agreement" that since between arafat and rabin...we supplied them weapons that they can fight the terror....but hmmm...they tern the weaopns against us...some of the weaopns are stolen from israel...

[S'13]

Ok, and thanks for answering. Do you have any estimate on how handguns etc. are dístributed among the palestinians? Security officers, terrorists etc. What would be the origin of the palestinian weapons?

Like UoUo wrote the weapons enter the Gaza strip through tunnels from Egypt and also by sea (from Lebanon and Iran). It is also known that Arafat would smuggle weapons into the territories with his helicopter but we know how that ended...

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1826/18260514.jpg
Arafat's helicopters after an Israeli air assault.

[Javehn]

Hmm , ok ...
About the settlers , i have nothing to add to my Israeli colleagues . The soldier that guarding there , are simple combatant soldiers . How many troops ? Depending on the size of settlement , that's all i can say .
(i forgot to add , that during the Operational Security , i would prevent to answer to some questions ) . Troops carry just they own light assault weapons - M16 , M4 ,Mini Galil (depends what force carring the guard )....

About the weapons that Palestinian have , that can be divided between Gaza streep , and West bank .
West Bank : police and security forces - Light assault weapons - Kalachnikovs , Light jeeps (mostly defenders types ) , several M16 , helmets and personal wests, Standart camo uniform with PA insignia . Origin of weapons - purchase of Pal. Min. of defence ;Help from Arab countries ; Given by Israel during Oslo agreements .

Combatants (Phatah , Hamas , several small wings ) - RPG 7 , Kalachnikovs + M16 ; small amount of Galil + Uzi+G3 + Carabin M1 rifles+FN MAG's+Dragunov Sniper and Machine gun's ;Very small amounts of heavy weapons - Brauning and mortars . Allmost all light arms have optic sights installed . Mines and different types of charges -Hand made . Self Made weapons - poor design . Origin : Unnoficial help from arab countries like Suria , Iran , Iraq (no more ), Lebanon , Lybia (no more ) and different terroristic organizations arround the world like Hesballah , and jordain sources . Stolled from IDF bases . And the last "weapon" reserve - Human one - suicide bombers . Using different types of uniforms , and genneraly prefer not to use them .
Private weapon possesion : During the fact that PA became slightly like "Wild wild west" , many of people that don't belong to any combatant group have possesed some light arms . Mostly Kalachnikovs , and old type carabin weapons . Origin : Collapsing of PA made possible to stall some weapons used by security forces + Private deals with arms dealers .

During Israeli operations in West bank , number of arms have drasticly decreased . also , Palestinian police and security forces are ceased to excist there as effective force .

Gaza Strep - Situation there different . During the fact that Gaza have full authonomy , and Israeli forces didn't attempted to enter there ( meaning full insert of forces ) , the ammount of weapons and explosives there is much more big and consentrated .

Police and security Forces - same as in West bank . Only they are still fully operational , unlike in West bank .
Combatants ( Hamas , Phatah , Az E-Din El-Kuasam brigades , Islamic Jihad , Palestinian liberation front , some small groups ) : First+ Second generation ATGM's , RPG 7 + 18 , different calliber mortars-60 , 81 , 120 mm , self propelled rockets like Carl Gustaf + self made ( most famous is "Albana" ) , very small amount of AA shoulder missiles , heavy arms like 50 cal Brauning ,FN Mag , Dragonov MG , MG 42 's , pistols , big number of Bomb and Charges laboratories which made suffisticated charges used in Lebanon ( 100 kg charge that blow up Merkava tank ) . Offcorse , all types of small arms like Kalachnikov's , M16 , and so on . Excist big industry of self made weapons , that much more suffisticated from those made in West Bank . Having different type of camo (Israeli uniforms also ) , but gennerally prefer not to use them . Also having arty rockets called "Kassam" , and "Kassam 2" , used to follow Lebanon model and bombard inside Israel territory . Rocket's non exact , and they just didn't found way to calculate where to aim them correctly .
Origin : Mostly huge ammount of smuggle tunnels from Border town Rafah to Egypt . Help from Hisballah and so on .
Huge ammounts of C4 and TNT circling inside west bank .

In gennerally combatants from Gaza strep are much better equipter , and better organized . They had some "succeses" against Israeli army deployed in settlements inside Gaza streap . The intensity of fighting in Gaza streap is much higher then in West Bank .
I hope i answered your question , sorry it's a bit long , and i just can't write some things during OPSEC violations .

If My Israeli colleagues want to add something , or to put pictures ,please ( Uri , it seams you have good insights , if you would like to join , please )

Thank you .

[Argyll]

Sorry Javehn,
But this has been flogged to death too,and all that happens is accusations and counter accusations,claims of lies and counter lies,your wasting your time if you're expecting a descent thead?

[cut]

Bearing in mind what to do with the palestinians, what would be your ideal israel?

[Javehn]

Sorry Javehn,
But this has been flogged to death too,and all that happens is accusations and counter accusations,claims of lies and counter lies,your wasting your time if you're expecting a descent thead?

That's exactly why i opened this thread- i wanna keep it on another level , not like all the threads before . This one for people that want to listen and learn , and who knows more or less what is going on . I didn't opened this one for morronic teenagers who just want to say that Israel slaught Palestinian by thousands , and those writers have never even left the boundries of they own town . That's all , and i promise i will keep this one real . Israeli people known for it's self over-critic , and that's why probably we deserve all the Europians saying we are The bigest threat for human rights . I wan't try to re-invent the history , and if i don't know something (the fact is , that even Israelies don't know all when it comes to this conflict ) , i just answer that i don't know . So , yes , i am expecting a descent thread . But i will not except and answer to people that like to argue for the sake of argue .

I would also try to bring pictures more or less , to explain what the hell i am talking about .

My Ideal Israel ? For me , it's 2 separate states - Israel and Palestine with obvios and phisical border between . My personal belliefes is that it must be the best sollution . But , the way is very long for 2 different states , and the only attempt from Israel to build separation fence was called by different persones as "Apartehid wall" , and "Genocide Wall " . But that's all just political arguement , and i prefer question regarding to IDF actions .

And last thing - Palestinian terror did managed to acheave victory in one of battlefields (maybe the most important one ) - victory over public opinion . Israel politics and Israeli army misserably failed on this battlefield , and from that time they are paying the price . This why i am writing this .

Thank you

[AirZone]

Sorry Javehn,
But this has been flogged to death too,and all that happens is accusations and counter accusations,claims of lies and counter lies,your wasting your time if you're expecting a descent thead?

That's exactly why i opened this thread- i wanna keep it on another level , not like all the threads before . This one for people that want to listen and learn , and who knows more or less what is going on . I didn't opened this one for morronic teenagers who just want to say that Israel slaught Palestinian by thousands , and those writers have never even left the boundries of they own town . That's all , and i promise i will keep this one real . Israeli people known for it's self over-critic , and that's why probably we deserve all the Europians saying we are The bigest threat for human rights . I wan't try to re-invent the history , and if i don't know something (the fact is , that even Israelies don't know all when it comes to this conflict ) , i just answer that i don't know . So , yes , i am expecting a descent thread . But i will not except and answer to people that like to argue for the sake of argue .

I would also try to bring pictures more or less , to explain what the hell i am talking about .

My Ideal Israel ? For me , it's 2 separate states - Israel and Palestine with obvios and phisical border between . My personal belliefes is that it must be the best sollution . But , the way is very long for 2 different states , and the only attempt from Israel to build separation fence was called by different persones as "Apartehid wall" , and "Genocide Wall " . But that's all just political arguement , and i prefer question regarding to IDF actions .

And last thing - Palestinian terror did managed to acheave victory in one of battlefields (maybe the most important one ) - victory over public opinion . Israel politics and Israeli army misserably failed on this battlefield , and from that time they are paying the price . This why i am writing this .

Thank you

^
|
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smart man.. good luck...you'll need it rofl

woot

[Javehn]

Ok , just a couple of pictures to explain couple of things better .

http://images1.fotki.com/v7/photos/6/6059/103216/712026-vi.jpg

This one is Kasam rocket . There is modernized version Kasam-2 . They have 8 -20 km range , but low accuracy . Launched from Gaza strip , usually next to closest town to Israeli border - Beit Hanun in north of Gaza streap.


http://images1.fotki.com/v5/photos/6/6059/103216/417022-vi.jpg

Here Ez-a Din El Kassam combatants plant explosive devices in routes they think Israeli army will enter Gaza strip. Unbellivable thing is , that they plant them every night , and undig them on dawn every single day .

http://images1.fotki.com/v4/photos/6/6059/100084/430026-vi.jpg

Palestinian security forces . Have regular camo uniformes , Kalachnikov as main arms (also they using M16 , given by Israel ). On berret there is sign of PA . Standart police uniform is the left guy on picture , and right is guard in Palestinian jail .

http://www.waronline.org/analysis/buffer/kassam-2.jpg

This one is a launch of Kasam-2 rocket .

http://images1.fotki.com/v4/photos/6/6059/103216/5110203-vi.jpg

This one is self made propelled rocket "Albana". Used in Gaza strip (in the picture seen the tube , and the rocket itself ) . Ussually it's fired from "stand" by wire , when the operator is standing in safe place away from the rocket. Sometimes it's fired from sholder . (In the left side of picture)

http://images1.fotki.com/v1/photos/6/6059/103216/1017331492-vi.jpg

M16 rifle with snipers scop . Optic scopes are very popular amongst combatants , and widely used .

http://images1.fotki.com/v1/photos/6/6059/103216/813023-vi.jpg

This one is RPG-7 .

http://images1.fotki.com/v8/photos/6/6059/103216/91602-vi.jpg

FN MAG

http://images1.fotki.com/v9/photos/6/6059/103216/92802-vi.jpg

Russian made 7.62 . I guess it's RPD , but i am not shure . :)

That's more or less all about they weapon abbility .

[Argyll]

Thats not a .50 calibre MG,thats 7.62mm!!

[Javehn]

Sorry , wrong picture ...

http://images1.fotki.com/v4/photos/6/6059/103216/1221-vi.jpg

I ment to this one . again , i am not shure , but i guess it's DSHK .

Another photo of "ALbana" .

http://images1.fotki.com/v5/photos/6/6059/103216/523023-vi.jpg

[Argyll]

These rounds look pretty small for 12.7mm(.50)?

Is this picture mirorred? as I'm sure that the DhsKM is belt fed from the left side of the breach too?

[Javehn]

This thread is not for weapon discussion , dude ! :) It's just a graphic part of duck's answer about the weapons that excist in PA .
I am not shure weither it's DSHK , bu anyway , you can change the direction of "belt" feeding , by moving some pin inside the machine gun.

[Fox2]

Just felt I would add something to this discussion. I'm an American who's been to the Mid-East several times, most of those times to Israel. There is no way an American can truly relate to the lifestyle in those parts. September 11th, 2001, gave us but a taste of what is experienced over there every day by Israelis and peaceful Palestinians. It's a strange feeling the first time your vehicle gets scrutinized at a checkpoint, with every gun pointed at you. But I understand why that is needed.

Imagine for a moment what your country would be like in the same circumstances. I know for me and many Americans, it's hard to imagine US soldiers patrolling the streets of our cities, or HMMWVs with heavy machine guns watching the happenings of major intersections. It's even harder to imagine an American motorist stopping to help a soldier on his way home. I think most Americans are wary of picking up anyone off the highway, let alone an armed combatant. :lol:

I also have a question, for Javehn or any of the other Israelis here. How does the IDF view other major military powers in the world? Nowdays, with many world governments hesitant to take sides (especially Europe and even America being hesitant to take a pro-Israeli opinion), how does that affect the view the IDF holds of other militaries and nations?

Also, deviating from my original topic here, but this question has been digging at me for a while. Why is there never any mention of IDF transport or utility helicopters? Two years ago, when the IDF advanced against the Palestinians, and encircled Arafat's compound, I never saw mention or heard of any air assaults or use of transport helicopters. Is it just that the IDF chose to go with a solely ground-based force, and chose not to use forward air assaults?

Lastly, everyone knows that the IDF have some really good attack helicopter pilots, but what about their transport helicopter pilots? Does the IDF have some sort of a dedicated special operations helicopter unit similar to the US Army's 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment?

Anyway, I think that this is a long enough post already. Thanks in advance and have a good one. :D

[Argyll]

Em Javehn ,the thread is about the conflict and you posted pics of weapons,and that makes it part of the discussion,does it not?Also there was a Q re weapons,so that makes it all relevant!!

[Fox2]

Just to join in on the weapons banter... I think that is a 7.62mm PKM light machine gun. :D

http://images1.fotki.com/v4/photos/6/6059/103216/1221-vi.jpg



http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/images/158.jpg

Also note that in the second picture the bullets also load from the right side (although it could be mirrored as well)

[Javehn]

Allright , thank you Fox2
Damnit , i am getting unproffesional here . :(
I thought those bullets are to big to be 7.62 , so i went for 12.7 cal.
What an embarasment ... The only thing to say to my defence that i was a tanker . :(
(I bet IDFM203 will love what i said ... but Tankers Rule !)

Ok , about your questions .Start from last . No , as far as i know we don't have unit like 160 SOAR . No need also for that kinda unit as you can imagine - Israel is very small country , and helicopter flight squadrons are based all over the country . All pilots can go at special missions. There is however Israeli fleet Helicopter pilots , that are very rare , and ussually not many in Israel aware about them .

About the helicopter question , i prefer that my Infantry colleagues to answer on that question . They shure will now that better then me. It's problematic in middle of the day , or in middle of fight , because bullets can go very easy on Heli while he unloading .

IDF don't have political views , and as it been said "war is continuence of politic by other means " . That means soldiers are soldiers , and it's not they duty to question motives . IDF as an army , and as single soldier don't have special view . As long it's not preventing soldiers to do they job , they not care much . In next cases it come become very very annoying :

1)When you have an army of reporters sitting on your back making your job annoying and inpossible . Specially when they trying to report how much IDF soldiers enjoy to bit peacefull population and so on , and you standing next to it and hear it all (or when the soldiers are back from missions and just seeing on TV how they became mass murderers ). It can drive insane .
2)When you have an Armada of "Peace loving" fanatics from Amnesty or any other organization standing infront of you and waving white flags . While from ther side people with gun's try to fry your ass , and shoot those bastards also .

I hope i understood correctly what you ask , and answered to your questions .

Thank you

[Argyll]

Its all part of the package javehn! ;)
keep em coming!!

[S'13]

Does the IDF have some sort of a dedicated special operations helicopter unit similar to the US Army's 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment?

Unit 669, the Airborne Rescue And Evacuation Unit (Unit 669) is the IDF's Special Forces Airborne Combat Search And Rescue (CSAR) Unit, formed to extract shot down aircrews deep within hostile enemy territories.


http://www.isayeret.com/units/air/669/669-t.jpg

[Fox2]

Awesome! Do they mostly use the MH-53 as pictured or the UH-60 or even their Bell Hueys?

Also, is there any unit specifically for the insertion, extraction, and general transport of the Sayeret units? Or do the Sayeret units all have their own aviation groups?

[Havoc]

I think the palestinians are cowards to attack innicent civilian targets allthought same as israelians sometimes. But Israelians got more reasons, cause its their country.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

I got a question about Israels night operations. Do they do many operations under the cover of night? Do Palestinians have night vision capabilities?

[ST4]

There will never be an end to this conflict... :(

Its as simple as this: Religion is what is the central conflict and that Israel "invaded" Palestine after World War II.

[Russian Texan]

To Javehn

DshK you say, ok then... Seriously dude, you have less and less credibility with your every post. As a tanker you should know about DshK more than regular infantry, makes me wonder....

http://legion.wplus.net/guide/army/gu/dshkmt-1.jpg

http://legion.wplus.net/guide/army/gu/dshkmt-2.jpg

caliber: 12,7x109 mm
weigth: 34 kg MG body, 157 kg on universal wheeled mount
Length: 1625 mm
Length of barrel: 1070 mm
Feeding: belt 50 rounds
Rate of fire: 600 rounds/min
V0: 850 m/s


The first Soviet heavy-caliber machine gun was designed on official request for dedicated Anti-aircraft weapon. Request was issued to designer Degtyarev (who already designed an DP-27 LMG) in 1929. First prototype of the 12.7mm machine gun, named DK (Degtyarev, Krupnocalibernyj = Degtyarev, Large caliber) was built in 1930. This gun was officialy adopted, and DK was manufactured in small numbers during period of 1933 - 1935. It was a gas operated weapon, firing powerful 12.7mm carttridge, but with magazine feeding. Drum magazine held only 30 rounds and was bulky and heavy, and practical rate of fire was unsatisfactory low. In the late 1930s another famous Soviet arms designer, Shpagin, designed an add-on belt feed module, that could be easily installed on the DK instead of the magazine. This modification appeared in 1938, and in 1939 it was officially adopted by Red Army as an "12.7mm Krupnocalibernyj Pulemet Degtyareva-Shpagina, DShK" (Degtyarev-Shpagin, large caliber). DShK was used through WW2 as an anti-aircraft weapon, and also as an heavy infantry support gun. It also had been used on some heavy soviet tanks as a roof-mounted AA-gun. After the war some care had been taken to improve DShK - a rotary belt fed unit was replaced by more conventional slide-operated one, some other improvements also were made. New gun was adopted as a DShK-M, or DShK Modernised, and also is known as DShKM-38/46. It also was used as a heavy infantry support/AA-gun, and mounted on some tanks and armour vehicles (T-55, T-62, BTR-155). In the late 1960s and 1970s DShKM was gradually replaced in Soviet Army service by the more modern NSV / NSVT machine gun. DShKM was widely exported to Soviet-friendly nations and regimes. It was also manufactured in other countries, such as China, Iran, Yugoslavia and Pakistan. It was widely used in numerous "local wars", including Afghan campaigns.

DSchKM was one of the most sucessful designs of its time. 12.7mm (.50) AP bullets fired from that MG, could pierce 15mm armor plate at 500m.

DSchK is the belt-fed, air-cooled, gas operated weapon that fires only in full-auto. Gas system has the 3 positions gas regulator. Bolt is locked in the receiver via two horisontally pivoted locking flaps, attached to the bolt. The overall system is quite similar to one found in DP-27 light machine gun, but scaled up and with addition of the bolt and bolt carrier buffer assemblies in the receiver backplate. The original belt feed module, designed by Shpagin, used a non-desintegrating belt with open pockets. To delink the cartridges prior to chamber it, Shpagin used a rotary drum, that feed the belt and pulled the cartridges out of their belt pockets simulateneously. The drum was operated via the oscillating arm, that, in turn, was operated by the charging handle, rigidly attached to the bolt carrier. Belt was inserted at the top of the feed module, and cartridges were cought by the bolt and chambered at the bottom of the feed. Belt was fed from the left side of the gun. 50 rounds belts were used. DShK featured non quick-detachable, heavy barrel with radial fins to improve cooling and a large and effective muzzle brake.

DShK was used on wheeled universal mount, which was fitted with removable steel shield. This mount allowed vor Anti-aircraft usage - for AA role wheels were removed and a mount "tail" was separated and formed a folding tripod. Special shoulder stock and AA sight were also attached for Air Defence role. Some DShK were used on pintle mounts on small ships (like torpedo-boats).

DShKM was more or less the same weapon, with most distinctive change being the different belt feed, distinguished by much flatter, and square-outlined appearance. This feed module also used an oscillating arm linked to the charging handle to operate feed.

DShK and DShKM were quite adequate weapons for the time period they appeared in, but these guns were too heavy, too complicated to manufacture, and reliability in severe conditions was slightly less than desired, so they were replaced by much better designs (unlike the old Brownings M2HB, which are not less outdated today than DShK, but are still held in service).

[Fox2]

I don't think there is any need for hostilities, Russian Texan. We are all human, and all humans are ****e to errors. Besides, we're all here to share information, why not do so without starting WW3 over the internet? :lol: Sometimes you folks on this board forget that this is a venue for discussion and debate, and to share information with each other for the benefit of all concerned. Bringing personal attacks and hostilities into the mix just complicates matters needlessly.

Ok, let's all gather around the fire and sing "Koombaya, My Lord" together whilst picking daisies. rofl

[Russian Texan]

Fox 2

No,no,no... You have completely missinterpreted my post. I am not attacking Javenh, I am just questioning his credibility based on this and his other posts. The guy is just being called on BS but it is nothing personal. Besides, like you have said, we are all here to share information and I am just simply sharing information about DshK, that is it :)
Again it is not a personal attack, it is a BS call. I just don't understand why he pretends, as it seems to me, to be someone that he is not.


Koombaya, Koombaya..... :hug:

[StarvingStudent47]

Here's a question:

What precisely is the role of women in the IDF? I have heard numerous conflicting descriptions of this, ranging from "they do everything besides front-line infantry" to "they are paper-pushers but never do anything related to combat."

[Javehn]

quiet frankly your posts are starting to anoying me very much , RussianTexas . Who the hell you think i am , i am interested . Interesting to know who the hell you are also , and what right you have to say it to me . I allready said that my weapons knowladge is lack , my english is bad , and i have mistaken , as i wrote up . I am not nead you to remind me this again with your wodnerfull insights .I don't have to proove nothing to you with your attitude .

I am gennerally very much against puting private information on internet , and specially in international forum and that's understandable, but sence i became the bull****er and pretender here by you .-

http://www.geocities.com/jomavehn/me_and_makabi.JPG

I am the guy from the right side of the picture . That one in Beith - Lehem in Araphat compound -17 force command headquarters .

http://www.geocities.com/jomavehn/pluga_l.jpg

I am sitting at the end , on the chair . That's in my company barracks .

http://www.geocities.com/jomavehn/mifkedet_koah_17.jpg

That's my company in Araphat compound in Beith Lehem . In 17 force commando headquarters.

http://www.geocities.com/jomavehn/karten.JPG

That's not me , that's a picture of my Platoon officer . I don't have scanner at my home , so i brought here as much as i can do . Sorry i don't have picture with me on the tank .

I think that's all with that subject , and in future i prefer we don't have such a problems . Yes , i don't like to look at internet , or at books before i write here , i do it from memory . As i see , it gives here bad results , and the point is taken-next time i would write from the books , or copy her entire web pages just like you know to do, RT . And i would appreciate that before you write your next point , think good about it , and try not to insult , or call me a bull****er .
However i do appriciate that you posted here information about DSHK. I think pretender like me will learn a lot from this.

Thank you

[uri]

I got a question about Israels night operations. Do they do many operations under the cover of night? Do Palestinians have night vision capabilities?
Like the Us Army in Iraq, we prefer to do everything under the cover of the night, but sometimes there is continues actions over a day or two, so actions taken at day light to.
Yes, the Pals have some night vision capabilities, not high though...

____________________________________________________________

Fox 2

No,no,no... You have completely missinterpreted my post. I am not attacking Javenh, I am just questioning his credibility based on this and his other posts. The guy is just being called on BS but it is nothing personal. Besides, like you have said, we are all here to share information and I am just simply sharing information about DshK, that is it :)
Again it is not a personal attack, it is a BS call. I just don't understand why he pretends, as it seems to me, to be someone that he is not.


Koombaya, Koombaya..... :hug:
The credibility of Javenh posts - I think that most of those pic's he posted here, you can find on AP or ******* sites, i think they good enough.
____________________________________________________________


Here's a question:

What precisely is the role of women in the IDF? I have heard numerous conflicting descriptions of this, ranging from "they do everything besides front-line infantry" to "they are paper-pushers but never do anything related to combat."

There is a women in front lines in IDF, one female soldier was killen in West Bank a year ago (served in Combat MP unit), there are girls in Border Police. Two months ago 2 girls been shot inside the base in Gaza Strip (not front line - but close enough).
Also, in the las years women got into Airforce and into another high ranked units, but most of the women are endeed do office work.

[Argyll]

Well I did warn that this thread would start to decline,and if you cannot accept criticism then don't post.
If you're also going to post innacurate and false information then you have to accept it when you are corrected!

[Javehn]

That's it , let's rap it up then . I allready appologized and standed corrected .

Like Uri said , there are woman that serve Combat roles . Just not all of them open to women , like tankers . Women are not allowed to be tankers , despite the fact that all of the Tankers instructors are women . But regular infantry units started to recieve woman year ago . There are also units were women served sence 1993 , like MP fighting unit . There are also women in supporting units , that in case of war would be in frontline - like armored vehicles/tanks repair units , that in case of war should able to correct vehicles under fire . In any other rolles like drivers , supply service , and so on women are integrated long time ago in operational battalions . There are surpricengly low number of female cooks :( , that could make the food taste a little bit better :) . I think also that Israeli fleet started to except women on the ship's serve. Our Air-Force if fool of women 1-st class (if you know what i mean ) serving in different roles . There are also couple of women pilots in Israeli air force.

About the night operation - I will not say our night possibilites . About the palestinian night possiilities - they used to have a limited number of star light enhance binocles - night googles . In araphat compound in Rammalah alone 5 night vision googles seazed (source : waronline.org ) .
So , they used to have some limited night possibility , but after the IDF operations and operation "Defence shield" as you call it , it's drasticly decrease. But even if they had , there still would use it in limitted manner .
Most of they defence fighting happening inside they towns , with streets full of light from the street lamps .

[Russian Texan]

On the first picture on the chair right next to those guys there is a hat/hood usually worn by Israeli paratroopers and SF. Why would a tanker have it? On two of the pictures faces are blacked out, why - its not like you are SF?
If it is your platoon's barracks then you guys need to do some major clean up. When I was a teenager my room didn't look half as bad :)
But in the end we are all entitled to an opinion - I already have mine, take care pal.

[S'13]

Also, is there any unit specifically for the insertion, extraction, and general transport of the Sayeret units? Or do the Sayeret units all have their own aviation groups?


I looked a bit and found this explanation:


Note that unlike other armies in the western world, the IDF doesn't have a dedicated SF Air Wing (like the 160 SOAR in the U.S.). The IDF is simply too small and too poor to form such Wing. Therefore all the IAF airplanes and pilots are special operations capable.

source: www.isayeret.com

[Javehn]

I really really don't want to do it this way on this thread. I opened it for another reasons , and you could all do it in private message . I don't want to start personnal flames on you here . On first picture - "Those guys "-that's me first of all . There non hat/hood/caps on so on there . It's a helmet with standart cover made by many combatant soldiers . Why i blacked the faces ? Cose i don't feel comfortable to expose my picture on the net , and my friends also . "If it is your platoon ..."-They are getting cleaned twice a day. This picture is just before it . You are entitled to have your opinion - but sence i would like to have deascent thread here , i would like that you would keep your educated guesses to yourself . I don't have a lot of experience writting on phorums , and i haven't been touched those millitary subjects for quiet a time . Any more questions or insults i would like you to ask on Private Message , unless you have solid questions . And now let's really rap this one up .

More images :

http://www.idf.il/newsite/images/margema01.jpg

Palestinian 60 mm mortar used in Gaza streap .

http://www.idf.il/idf_in_pictures/images/2002/january/dotz%2022.01.02-05_notext.jpg

Timer detonator to Climore charge . Picture taken in West bank.It can be also part of weapon launch system - timer for mortars or something like this . It could be design to bring soldiers to trap .

http://www.idf.il/idf_in_pictures/images/2002/april/amit/eng/image011.gif

Optics and night googles discovered in Araphat's compound in Rammalah.
After "defence shield" operation the number of night vision googles have very decreased amongst Palestinian fighters .

[Argyll]

Russian NVG's ?

[ArmoredDov_D9]

I also have a question, for Javehn or any of the other Israelis here. How does the IDF view other major military powers in the world? Nowdays, with many world governments hesitant to take sides (especially Europe and even America being hesitant to take a pro-Israeli opinion), how does that affect the view the IDF holds of other militaries and nations?

It is hard to tell. The IDF do hold joint menuevers and trainings with foreign armies (mainly the USA, Turkey, UK and Germany) but it doesn't count on them to interfere in combat if Israel should be attacked.

Also, deviating from my original topic here, but this question has been digging at me for a while. Why is there never any mention of IDF transport or utility helicopters? Two years ago, when the IDF advanced against the Palestinians, and encircled Arafat's compound, I never saw mention or heard of any air assaults or use of transport helicopters. Is it just that the IDF chose to go with a solely ground-based force, and chose not to use forward air assaults?

As you might know (and it was shown in Iraq) helicopters are very vulnerable - even to small arms fire. Israel is very small country (including the West Bank) and parcticlly, IDF forces can reach every destinatio in the West Bank with 10-15 minutes by ground-transportation (armored jeeps, APCS, tank) and sometimes even by foot. Therefore, using helicopters does not improve mobility that much, but rather increase costs and danger to the troops within.
The IDF does use chopers for fire sipport, scouting and attacking targets - but usually either send on "hit&run" assult or either supported by ground forces.


Lastly, everyone knows that the IDF have some really good attack helicopter pilots, but what about their transport helicopter pilots? Does the IDF have some sort of a dedicated special operations helicopter unit similar to the US Army's 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment?

Yes. The IDF have special resuce units with excellent helicopter pilots.

Anyway, I think that this is a long enough post already. Thanks in advance and have a good one. :D

[Javehn]

Ok , to Argyll , no those aren't Russian NVG's , those one eye U.S. Night googles .1-Head adaptor . 2)One eye google.
http://www.geocities.com/jomavehn/image011.jpg

A very very short history of the fight :

before 1947-Jews back in masses on lands of Israel ,buying bad lands from Arabs and drying them , making the land furtile , and developing it . Jews population : 600, 000 people .
29 nov 1947 : UN resolution to cross the land on Jewish and Arab part.
Next day : 5 Arabs nations effectively **** on UN resolution and invade new-born Israel with help from native Palestine Arabs that aren't happy with new resolution . Target : Kill all jews.Reclaim the land back. ( word palestine comes from name of Pelishtim- nation that lived in Israel 4000 years ago . After Israel nation banquished by Roma , the name changed back to Phalestina). 68 percent of Native Arabs leaving Israel after the been promissed by Arab leaders that they could return after will "clear" the land from Jews .
1948-Jews wins the war and state of Israel established . The 68 percent menchioned above try to find refugee in Arab countries without success - those don't want to take them . At last they get to stay in Jordain west bank.
1967-6 Day war.Israel pulling back attacking forces , and gaining new territories. One of those territories is Jordain west bank , and with it the former refugees . Those are trying to get known as refugees from they lands by Israel , and to get "Return right" on they land .
1968-Jordainian king Husseyn getting tired from Palestinians in his territory , and during "black september" he slaughter them by masses . Those leaving to live on south Lebanon , and wanted to get known as refugees from Israel and to be reffered as Palestinians .
Israel establishes millitary rull in west bank (just like on in Iraq those days ). There are non stoped askes to UN to be known as Refugees and to call Zionism a form of Rasism. At the end they succed -1986 Zionism is claimed as form of rasizm and palestinian getting known as refugees by UN resolution.
1982-Palestinian liberation army in Lebanon bombards Israeli border and kills Israeli ambassador in Europe . Israel start preemptive operation -"Gallilee peace".Soon it became to Lebanon war. Leader of Palestinian Liberation Army is Yaser Araphat .
1987-Camp David . Palestinians given it's independent Authority , and 5 years program to develop it .
That same year-Palestinian first uprising -Intifaada . Reason:Israeli driver run over 4 palestinians in Gaza streap.After the end of Intifaada Itshak Rabin (ז"ל) innitiates new program of independent Palestinian authority .
1994-Peace between Israel and Jordain.During the peace agreements Palestinian get's more authority on they lands - Police , Ministerions . Israeli settlements getting build in west bank next to Palestinian cities .
Yaser Araphat get's Nobell peace prize (all you have to do is kill couple thousand of jews) . Palestinian authority get's build by Israel - Palestinian schools and institutions , Palestinian police (get's armed also by Israeli weapon). During this time huge number of suicide bombers attack Israel , as they protest to peace proccess .
2000-Second uprising - Intifaada when Ariel Sharon visits in Jeruslam , on place that the entering to jews being forbidden by Arab Uakf-council , in the heart of Israel .Massive uprizing of Israeli Arabs , and Palestinian arabs . This one is lasting 3 years .
At the beggining Israel tryed to keep restrain , and to perform small surgical operations on territories just to catch suicide terrorists . After suicide bombers increased acts , Israeli started to take more violent acts . After those didn't work , Israel army tryed to move inside cities after each bombing , and on 2002 did the bigest operation called "defensive shield" - full insurgent to territories in west bank.There is been fierce fighting , and the bigest one was on city of Jenin .

After this operation , the palestinian terrorists abbility were drasticly decreased .

[Fox2]

Thanks to Javehn, S'13, and ArmoredDov_D9 for their answers. :D

Also, on women...I read someplace -- I believe it was isayeret -- that a lot of instructors are women in the IDF. Sniping instructors, etc. So, is there a strategy of the women mostly training up the men, then the men going off and fighting?

[Javehn]

Well , women are better learner in general . They much better instructors from guys (wonder why ... ) , and that's was part of IDF program to give women more responsible rolles. Women just act as theory instructors , the phisical excersize are done with male commanders / instructors . There are also a lot of women officers and sargents/commanders in basic training for non combatants/ support units , and just in gennerally in non combatant/support roles . The biggest ratio of female /male excist in IAF .

[Mr. Nielsen]

A very very short history of the fight :

These are the standard israeli version more or less. Apart from this one:


1967-6 Day war.Israel pulling back attacking forces , and gaining new territories.

Not even the official Israel claims that Israel was attacked. The official claim is that it was a pre-emptive war.

Now. Is this what is taught in Israeli school's?

[Javehn]

Haha-ha , thank you , Mr Nielsen. I did promise i will be fair on this post .

I grow in Russia , not in Israel . I have a little Israeli education what so ever . This is standart history , not "standart Israeli version" . My father was an officer in Red Army , and couple of officers from his unit had the luck to visit in Egypt . My father also knows the history wery well , despite the fact that he served there .
1967-There was pre-emptive strike (air strike ), yes . But the war itself haven't been pre-emptive . The egyptian army and syrian army had plans to attack Israel . Egypt pressident Gammel abd EL-Nazer demand that UN separation force that been based between borders will leave . Then he blocked Tiran straights- that is the entrance to Israeli horbor in Eylat, blocking Israeli ships and sinking them . And then troops started to move out to Israeli border . Sence egypt Air-force alone 3 times bigger then Israeli air-force , there been pre-emptive strike by Israeli air force succesfully wiping out air force of Syria , Egypt ,Lebanon , Jordain , And Iraq H-2/3 airports , destroying the plains while they are still on Airport , and ruin the runways . We won this war with honnor . Or it's rather to get cought with pence down , and to wait while big guy makes the first punch ? If you know other version tohistory , i would like to hear it . And anyway , i writed it very generally , so there will not be much to read.


Another thing , it seams all Europians (and some americans ) that deffending them, have no idea what so ever about they middle eastern-muslim menthality . Those that from Russia in here more or less understand it , because the people of Caucauzus (Maybe you familiar with chechens and the stories about them ) .
Thank you .

[IDFM203]

I have been very busy the past week (and for the next couple of weeks) but I see that my absence has been adequately filled (its about time ;) :D )……..so I don’t really have much to add other then just one post correction.



On the first picture on the chair right next to those guys there is a hat/hood usually worn by Israeli paratroopers and SF. Why would a tanker have it? . thats not correct......... Every combat soldier in the IDF makes those.

They were started by a SF unit and are primarily used by SF units and all front line infantry units.

Now while Yes mainly infantry units makes them, however tankers also do because there are instances that a tanker will fight infantry work if need be (I am sure javhen can elaborate on that if its not a OPSEC violation) so the need to disrupt the outline of the helmet is just as prevalent to them as well.




On two of the pictures faces are blacked out, why - its not like you are SF? . all Israeli soldiers when they post personal pics online are supposed to do that…its simple prudence

Shalom :D

[uri]

Those innocent Palestinians, they only want peace . . .

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20031215/i/r1786649184.jpg
Masked militants from The Al-Aqsa brigade, a link of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement, hold up pictures of former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein during a protest in Khan Younis, December 15, 2003. Underlining the difficulties of restarting peace efforts, Israeli soldiers shot dead two Palestinians trying to sneak into Israel from the Gaza Strip and troops fought gunbattles with militants during a raid into a refugee camp overnight. *******/Jerry Lampen

[Javehn]

There is something in IDF that is called "IDF SPIRIT" . It's moral and operation spirit according to which IDF supposed to managed . Part of the "IDF Spirit " there is what is called "IDF Values" . There are 13 values , where 3 of them are basic . All those values given to every combat soldier that supposed to visit front lines , in small book . This book supposed to be carried all the time, and is considered to be part standart soldier equipment .

I want to share something about 2 values : Purity of Arms , and Human Life . Those 2 values are taught without stop over and over in IDF boot camps , and on every training . First one says : Soldier should use his weapond in order to do his mission , and nothing beyond it . No harm innoccent civilians , and POW's . Second value says : Even on heat of battle soldier should remember the sacred thing - life (and that includes his life also , meaning not to endangare himself more that is needed to complete the mission ) .

Those values have been best shown at IDF's operation "Shield Wall " , in refugee town called Jenin . On this refugee camp , the combatants were best equipted , and better prepared then in other cities . The fighting there were fierce , when the ratio of death soldiers standing at almost 1:2 (24 killed IDF soldiers against 52 palestinians , 34 of them belonging to terror organizations ). But IDF command didn't wanted to use artylery , Air force or buldozers , despite the inpossible fighting there . Only when the Israeli army started to approach to the middle of city (with dence passeges called alleys of death ) , and after big losses , desided of usage of D9 catterpilears , that acctually have ended the fighting , as one of the surrended terrorists said . Ironicly , this fight was falsed by PA , and introduced as Massicre of Jenin .

Those values still standed even with ammount of political pressure , and different surcomstances .

IDF values : http://www.idf.il/english/doctrine/doctrine.stm

[Javehn]

Just liked to add something about IDF special designated helicopters.
No one mentioned here Naval helicopters , sence naval branch in IDF is always been forgotten (by the way , 669 isn't helicopter unit . It's search and rescue unit , mostly for down pilots but used for all S&R . No designated helicopters scuadrons used for that purpose , every helicopter can be used ) .

Ok , back to naval helicopter . There are 2 main naval helicopters in Israel , "Atalef" (Panter ) , and "Dolphin" helicopters . Now those helicopters are primarely designated for naval Search and rescue ,patrol , as well as other uses , like fire correction , and so on .
By the way , Naval branch of IDF have been used on the Palestinian Israeli conflict , but it's partisipance were forgotten .

Bellow : Panther Helicopter. ("Atalef"-bat rath ) .
Panter helicopter fly off the deck Saar 5 type missile boat.
Panter helicopter in Search and Rescue training on sea.

http://hi-teach.com/infohub/FileServer/SPs/Amal/25263.gif

http://www.idf.il/IMAGES/atalef.jpg

http://www.waronline.org/IDF/pictures/Navy/images/769_.JPG

[Groove]

Ok here are my questions. Pls answer them not with some propaganda or some kind of pitty sound.

1. If Israel would have existed some centuries already. And then the Palestinan would come - first buy the land from you and after some year they would declare its now Palestina. Would you fight against them ?

2. Why Israel can breake some UN Resolutions and others not ?

3. I read a book a time ago from this one MOSSAD Agent who fled to Canada. He wrote down there that your Government is still using the "holocoust" as a political instrument. So that always when someone critcise their oing in middle east they say this ppl are anti-semitic. Whats your opinion about it as a Israeli citizen.

4. Do you think that building new settlement in the area of the palestinian will bring freedom and peace to the region ?

5. Many ppl says that Isreal wouldnt be "nothing" without the ongoing help from USA. I mean military and with money. Whats your opinion about it. Would Isreal be that "fine" without help from USA ?

Thx for your answers in advance !

Greetings

Groove

[UoUo]

Ok here are my questions. Pls answer them not with some propaganda or some kind of pitty sound.

1. If Israel would have existed some centuries already. And then the Palestinan would come - first buy the land from you and after some year they would declare its now Palestina. Would you fight against them ?

2. Why Israel can breake some UN Resolutions and others not ?

3. I read a book a time ago from this one MOSSAD Agent who fled to Canada. He wrote down there that your Government is still using the "holocoust" as a political instrument. So that always when someone critcise their oing in middle east they say this ppl are anti-semitic. Whats your opinion about it as a Israeli citizen.

4. Do you think that building new settlement in the area of the palestinian will bring freedom and peace to the region ?

5. Many ppl says that Isreal wouldnt be "nothing" without the ongoing help from USA. I mean military and with money. Whats your opinion about it. Would Isreal be that "fine" without help from USA ?

Thx for your answers in advance !

Greetings

Groove

I will answer few of you que' and let idfm203 the answer the rest ;)

1. I will...but i never ever whould blow a bus fall of children...or come into a house and shhot babies while they sleeping...
and it isn't black and white like you said...palstin was never exit before 48...there were arabs in this land...and no country...the land was under british control.
5. israel survvied the most hard time without usa....1948 - 1967...so i think yes...but usa support is very important.

[UoUo]

BTW : is very anyoing to hear people say "israel have strong milltry cuz the us aid..."..is ****ing bull****...israel devoplped most of her weopns...

and Egept get aid too....they don't have great army like IDF.

[Javehn]

Ok , good questions. I will answer them one by one .

1: There is a law called "statue law" (1724 Authoman rule law, to Hagjra , state laws of ground , ground economics Richard Kelly , Tora Veikra laws ) , if i wrote it correctly on English . A ground section of this rule is saying : Every ground that has bein forsaken by it's owners , after 7 years can be passed to someone that clamed it , unless : the owner had claimed it during those 7 years ;owner didn't "despared" on the ground , but he couldn't claim it back, this case time doesn't matters ; true owner sended a claimer from his behalf to claim the land property .

To translate it to what is going on in Israel : Jewish people been banned 2000 years ago (aprox) from Israel and Jehuda land by Romans , who also rename it to Palestine (name of the people that lived 2000 years before that on those lands ) . However , small jewish community continued to live there , mostly on places called Sefad and Jerusalem . So , jewish community still remain in possetion of the ground . People in Israel land have come , and replaced , but this community stayed .

Jewish praying have a legal side : in all of jewish prais it's said , that we never forgot Israel , and Jerusalem.We wish it back , and we will back there . That's shows the non-desperation of Jewish people on the land .

And , as i said , the lands where bought by law from Arabic residence in Israeli land , that came during Halifat rule over Israel . Jews have a claim on the country by it's religion - historical law document , while Arabic there haven't had any claims to Jewish places , and infact , most of them became holly only on this century !

That gives jews much bigger clame over Israel then , let's say most of americans over U.S.A (sorry guys , really !! :) ) , or the legality of colonial states on the world . Those countries fought on this century , not to loose claim over lands that they had no right to hold , but no one blamed them what so ever. Heard about Portugezians and Angola ? Offcorse not ! Heard about war between Azerbayjan and Armenya over Nagorniy Karabah ? Ofcorse not . Heard what Turkes did to Armenians ? I doubt .


Arabs that lived in Israel ("palestinians") , could at list do a little thing , that would make they clames better protected by Law- To declare this place as they own state, and to give it a name ! For centuries that they lived in Israel , however , they failed to do so , because they felt they have no attaching to that place , and they are just temporary people there (some of them forced to live in Israel ) . So, when jews came there , they didn't took lands from the state of "_____" , they buyed they own ground back !!! They started to call themself "Palestinian" after 1967 period .So , they actually never had any mandat or claim on the land , not like the jews .


U.N declared the country of Israel by vote . If you know that , you should also know that 5 Arab countries pissed on that , and attacked Israel on the next day !!

That's a bit long , but that can be small answer to first question . I will post more after it .


To Israeli collegues , i would ask people that still didn't served in army not to post answers here , unless they totally shure what they are writting . I would much rather preffer that people with experience would write this one . No disrespect at all .

[IDFM203]

Just to add what javehn wrote. there were Jews living there way before Israel declared a state and yet they were still being attacked (like the 1929 Hebron massacre)


2. Why Israel can breake some UN Resolutions and others not ? why is there not a single UN resolution against any Arab nation or against any Arab terrorist group that has fought against Israel in all of the past fifty years?? Why did the UN pull out its troops when Egyps' Nasser told them to in 1967?? When you can answer that, you will have your answer to the above.....( and who writes and how those UN resolutions are written)


3. I read a book a time ago from this one MOSSAD Agent who fled to Canada. He wrote down there that your Government is still using the "holocoust" as a political instrument. So that always when someone critcise their oing in middle east they say this ppl are anti-semitic. Whats your opinion about it as a Israeli citizen.
That’s his opinion, nothing more nothing less……oh and that’s not true.

Fair criticism is always understandable and accapted but a lot of it is not fair and it is bordering on anti Semitism.

BTW a lot of critics against Israel are falsely and cynically using the holocaust and what the nazi’s did to the jews against Israel now as if we are like nazi’s (the comparisons are not even close but the oft repeated lie is as truth now in some warped circles :roll: )… so that charge work both ways....I would say that the critics of israel use the holocust much more then what they accuse israel of doing :(

(BTW I liked that book even though it was critical of Israel.)



4. Do you think that building new settlement in the area of the palestinian will bring freedom and peace to the region ? I dont know if it really matters, for I don’t think that it makes any difference for even if Israel didnt build any settlements now, there are large percentage of arabs that consider the whole Israel, like Jerusalem tel aviv and hiafa etc.. To be settlements and they want to see that destroyed as well.


5. Many ppl says that Isreal wouldnt be "nothing" without the ongoing help from USA. I mean military and with money. Whats your opinion about it. Would Isreal be that "fine" without help from USA ? what would the arabs have been without the soviets?

what would egyp, saudi arabi, be without the U.S. now??

Anyway’s the U.S. helps and it is defiantly appreciated but Israel could survive on its own…. it is a 122 billion a year economy and gets 3.5 billion a year from the U.S….that’s hardly a argument for full dependence.

shalom :D

[Hussar]

1. Do you think it is OK to buldoze houses of terrorists (sometimes with persons inside)? You think you can punish whole family because of one terrorist (like SS during WW2)?
2. I saw on TV that your (israeli) tank turned and destroyed few civilians cars parked on the road. Do you know what private property is?
3. Do you think it is OK to launch a rocket and destroy car with guy from Hamas on street filled with people (and kill one guy from Hamas and 5-6 civilians including children)?
4. Do you think that building next houses (small villages - I don`t know adequate word) on palestinian ground (I mean illegal villages) will finish this war? Do you want to live in that house - surrounded by enemies?
5. Do you think it is OK to kill palestinian boys who throw stones on your tanks? Small stone can destroy Merkava?

[UoUo]

1. Do you think it is OK to buldoze houses of terrorists (sometimes with persons inside)? You think you can punish whole family because of one terrorist (like SS during WW2)?
2. I saw on TV that your (israeli) tank turned and destroyed few civilians cars parked on the road. Do you know what private property is?
3. Do you think it is OK to launch a rocket and destroy car with guy from Hamas on street filled with people (and kill one guy from Hamas and 5-6 civilians including children)?
4. Do you think that building next houses (small villages - I don`t know adequate word) on palestinian ground (I mean illegal villages) will finish this war? Do you want to live in that house - surrounded by enemies?
5. Do you think it is OK to kill palestinian boys who throw stones on your tanks? Small stone can destroy Merkava?

1. Buldoze houses of terroist in my opinian is just fine...usa does this as well. the comparing with the SS is very lame...if we were like the SS we whould killed the all family of the terrosits.
2. War you stupaid...it's a war....you know how much cilivinian killed by britian in WW2 ?
3. lies lies lies...palstinian say that the number of dead...****ing bull****...you know how much times israel cut and opration cuz it may heart palstinian ?
4. No
5. No...we don't kill them. see the las pic's in the photos borad....they claim over our tanks and we don't do nothing.
Btw : rocks do kill.

[S'13]

1. Do you think it is OK to buldoze houses of terrorists (sometimes with persons inside)? You think you can punish whole family because of one terrorist (like SS during WW2)?
2. I saw on TV that your (israeli) tank turned and destroyed few civilians cars parked on the road. Do you know what private property is?
3. Do you think it is OK to launch a rocket and destroy car with guy from Hamas on street filled with people (and kill one guy from Hamas and 5-6 civilians including children)?
4. Do you think that building next houses (small villages - I don`t know adequate word) on palestinian ground (I mean illegal villages) will finish this war? Do you want to live in that house - surrounded by enemies?
5. Do you think it is OK to kill palestinian boys who throw stones on your tanks? Small stone can destroy Merkava?

1) I think it's the only way to deter suicied bombers and please spare us the SS talk, I have seen it too many times. I never heard about a house been destroyed while people were inside unless the people were terrorists and it was while fighting.

2) I saw buses and restaurants which were blown up while people were inside, do you know what human life is?

3) The IDF tries to prevent civilian casualties as much as possible, I as an Israeli think the Palestinians should take care of their terrorist so we won't have to and so spare the loss of human life.

4)I don't think the building of settlements will end the war but I'm not sure tearing them down will also do so. A lot of Arabs think Tel-Aviv is an illegal settlement and Israel has been surrounded by enemies since it's establishment.

5) You can't be serious...

[Javehn]

Ok, questions . I would preffer to answer to Hussar questions first , and then to Groove's , agreed (or maybe someone else would answer to his questions ) ?

1.Do you think it's ok to buldoze houses of terrorists ?

When you see buldozer getting over some house , it can be during next things : a) The house was set as a base fire , that means - that house is excellent view and/or fire point on Israeli forces in the place-millitary or civilian . Those kinda houses are abandoned , and no one lives there . The house get's destroyed by D9 , in order not to harm any soldiers . Note : The house get's destroyed only if the fire that getting from there is effective , and managed to hurt soldiers or civilians .

b) Detonator Laboratory : Self explanatory, more or less. Those are mostly getting blown , and not leveled by D9 , sence they are containing hazard ellements . I don't think that you neads explanation why this sort of house is blown .

c) Houses with tunnels - mostly in Gaza strip , houses that have underground tunnels that lead inside Egypt . Most weapons and detonators came to Gaza strip by those channels . Tunnels getting blown , and houses is leveled . I think we again can agree on this . I reming you again , that 99 percent of those houses are abandonded , and the 1 percent is the terrorists themselfes ( or assosiators ) . The houses are not leveled , if there are people inside.

d ) Terrorists houses - That is the one , that had many problems with law (Israeli and international) . Arab society have special place for houses -it's simbolizes the power and manhood . Israeli law forbid that , but after a huge wave of suicide bombers allowed to do an experiment" . After it , the bombing stoped for a big ammount of time . However , this one is almost none used , unless it's prooven that the family knew about it , but still let the son/father/familly member to continue with it .

e)During operations - It's actually the best way to destroy fire sources that came from houses , with a little collathoral damage ( bellieve it or not ) . That's also the safest way to do it , without getting heart , because of special features of D9 over APC's and even tanks .

It looks very bad on TV? I think i wrote here allready about cinical use of Palestinians of TV , and the victory over public opinion in the world . Comparing IDF actions to those of SS was one of the ways to do it . Apparantly they had a success...
Take a few moments , by the way , and read IDF's spirit on the link i posted above .

[IDFM203]

Just to add what Javhen has written


1. Do you think it is OK to buldoze houses of terrorists (sometimes with persons inside)? never when others are inside!!! As for the terrorist that has killed Jews, I have no problem seeing him bulldozed.


You think you can punish whole family because of one terrorist (like SS during WW2)? funny right after I got saying my response to groovs third question, heres this :roll:

Israel did not kill families nor does it target them.

Also its not about punishment but it is about deterrence from other would be suicide bombers to not blow themselves up again.


2. I saw on TV that your (israeli) tank turned and destroyed few civilians cars parked on the road. Do you know what private property is? do you know what cars with explosives are??

Also its **** I wish that wouldn’t happen but it’s a war and its ugly and yes sad BUT Israel needs to go after those terrorists that blow themselves up and kill people…..so you can whine about cars and I will talk about people being blown up while drinking a cup of coffee or sitting in a bus. (Not to mention the bus being destroyed)


3. Do you think it is OK to launch a rocket and destroy car with guy from Hamas on street filled with people (and kill one guy from Hamas and 5-6 civilians including children)? ok so you tell me a better way to kill this person when he has killed Jews and when he sends out more suicide bombers but then wraps himself with civilian guinea pigs?

its sad but israel only targets these killers and tries its best to avoid anyone else.


4. Do you think that building next houses (small villages - I don`t know adequate word) on palestinian ground (I mean illegal villages) will finish this war? Do you want to live in that house - surrounded by enemies? no it wont finish the war, but do you think that Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and Haifa is safe even if we didn’t build that??



5. Do you think it is OK to kill palestinian boys who throw stones on your tanks? Small stone can destroy Merkava? no its not but when has that ever happened!! :roll: I mean if that was happaning than why is it that tons of Palestinian boys consistently and constantly still run up to tanks by the dozens? Boy they must be scared that the soldier might shoot them ;) :roll:

Shalom :D

[Hussar]

1) I think it's the only way to deter suicied bombers and please spare us the SS talk, I have seen it too many times. I never heard about a house been destroyed while people were inside unless the people were terrorists and it was while fighting.

2) I saw buses and restaurants which were blown up while people were inside, do you know what human life is?

3) The IDF tries to prevent civilian casualties as much as possible, I as an Israeli think the Palestinians should take care of their terrorist so we won't have to and so spare the loss of human life.

4)I don't think the building of settlements will end the war but I'm not sure tearing them down will also do so. A lot of Arabs think Tel-Aviv is an illegal settlement and Israel has been surrounded by enemies since it's establishment.

5) You can't be serious...

1. You know. When Poland was split beetween Russia, Austrio-Hungary and Germany poles made many uprisings. Russians were killing our patriots - but their families and houses were unhurt. Even if our patriots had killed some russian VIP. I have read about many people killed in buldozed houses. Punishing family was good in Soviet Russia or Third Reich - not in civilized country like Israel.

2. I`m very sorry about that and I think, that someone have to stop it. But these reustaurants werent blowed up by these cars.

3. It is not an answer. You think, that small children can stop terrorists?

4. I don`t mean Tel-Aviw but small villages surounded by palestinians. I wil never go here.

5. It is true - I have seen a video and read few articles about that - articles in a newspaper owned by Jew.

[Javehn]

Excuse me , but you are reading the answers ? Read, read please. Patience is imortant .. From you first answer i see that obviosly you haven't read any of replies .

You are talking to people that been in that war , and fought there . We have better things to do then explain our actions to pissen teenagers like you , that have no idea, but no idea, and again , no idea whatsoever. But we still do it , so instead of respond like this , read carefully ...

I myself feeling i am talking (or writting on this case ) to the wall . I am not the only one that feels like this .

Ok, never the less, answers is still comming .

[Javehn]

Ok, now to your second question :

2)About cars .

That one actually made me laugh , and laugh much . By the way , can you give me some personal information , like how old are you , or where from are you (i guess poland )? You have any idea how war scenes look ?

You must be reffering to this picture : http://www.hevre.co.il/images/photos/631079_98938.JPG

Why ? Becose :

1) 70 percent of cars in west bank stollen from Israel . Sometimes you can see it , when on car in a middle of west bank you see bumber stiker with writting : Jewish people demands the Golan hights ! on hebrew . In case where the claims by insurance company allready met, and the owner got new car , police have nothing to do with those cars ( that's actually kinda strange ) . The cars getting rid this way , and getting away from there by police.

2 ) ****y trapped - tank can deal with ****y traps . Infantry can't . Simple. Tank getting over car , and taking the charge on himself.

3) Neccesary pass - Tanks are very needed in those actions , in many ways . However , sometimes tank should pass in some places , where they are blocked by vehicles . Why ? To create so called " Extermination territory" , when the vehicle is stoped from advancing , and getting shot from behind while it's stationary . So , we just making the path . This case Palestinians getting they target anyway : If they didn't managed to destroy vehicle , they still make us look bad .

4) "Extraction from engaging area" -When the APC (tank on this case ) getting under fire ,the drill is next : First thing you should do is get away from engaging area (unless it's mines , and the drill is different ) , and relocate to the point where you can effectively overlook the field . To extract from shooting area is done very simple - to get the hell as fast as possible from that place !! That one should be done without any considiration to anything , with full gaz - otherways the death is imminant, period . Or in simple language , and i am shure you will agree- i would much rather to crush a car ( they getting payd back on those cases , by the way ) , but get the **** out from there , and all the soldiers will remain allive .

5 ) Last one , accidents - Yes, **** happends.The streets are narrow , and the view from tank is very limited . Some commanders make a hazard to they lives , and driving with full bodies outside the hatches , trying not hitting nothing , but still .... In those cases - millitary justice startes to work . But as i said , tanks are very needed , and the losses from infantry side would be much bigger without tanks . Much much bigger .



Stollen Israeli car .

http://www.waronline.org/IDF/pictures/Army/Magach-6/images/414.JPG


Those 2 risking they life while they "peeping" that high (i am personally not shure why they do it this way ) . Almost all Palestinian snipers had tank hatches under they scopes , and not open infantry , sence they bellieved they to kill tanker , hence to destroy "tank" is much more honorable , and challenging . But , never the less , some commanders preffer to do it this way , and not hurt unneccesary property . I am shure they counterparts in other armies would jok on them because of that decision.

http://www.waronline.org/IDF/pictures/Army/Merkava-1_2/images/579.JPG

Understood it ? Next...

[Groove]

why is there not a single UN resolution against any Arab nation or against any Arab terrorist group that has fought against Israel in all of the past fifty years??



http://www.un.org/documents/scres.htm

There are enough resolutions regarding Arab States and Israel - watch yourself pls.

Groove

[Groove]

Excuse me , but you are reading the answers ? Read, read please. Patience is imortant .. From you first answer i see that obviosly you haven't read any of replies .

You are talking to people that been in that war , and fought there . We have better things to do then explain our actions to pissen teenagers like you , that have no idea, but no idea, and again , no idea whatsoever. But we still do it , so instead of respond like this , read carefully ...

I myself feeling i am talking (or writting on this case ) to the wall . I am not the only one that feels like this .

Ok, never the less, answers is still comming .

i hope you didnt ment me as im no teenie more and im tryin to stay calm and ask my questions without any emotions.

Groove

[IDFM203]

why is there not a single UN resolution against any Arab nation or against any Arab terrorist group that has fought against Israel in all of the past fifty years??



http://www.un.org/documents/scres.htm

There are enough resolutions regarding Arab States and Israel - watch yourself pls.

Grooveoh really?? Remember I am talking in the context of the Israeli/Arab conflict. (yes for example iraq has resolutions but its not in the contaxt of the Israeli/Arab conflict)

I would like to see you give me a number (higher then zero ;) ) of how many UN resolutions there are against any Arab nation in all the war’sagainst israel and in all the conflict in the past fifty years or also how many are against any Arab terrorist groups (which a lot of those nations actively help out) in the context of the Israeli Arab conflict.

Go ahead list them please……. Hey perhaps I am wrong and perhaps there are and I might learn something. (hey I am here to learn as well :D )

Shalom :D

[Groove]

I like you IDFM203 ! You learned well in your school - are you from some kind of PR department ? You just ignored my question about the Israel Resolutions and started a questioning me about any arab resolutions.

There are enough resolutions regardinf the palestine conflict where syria or egypt is mentioned. Resolution 92 for example. But you still didnt answered my why Israel can break Resolutions like they like why other countries not.

I always thought you are a democratic land and not dictatorian like Iraq was for example.

So would you pls answer my question :). And i asked you 1st btw !

Greetings

Groove

[S'13]

1) I think it's the only way to deter suicied bombers and please spare us the SS talk, I have seen it too many times. I never heard about a house been destroyed while people were inside unless the people were terrorists and it was while fighting.

2) I saw buses and restaurants which were blown up while people were inside, do you know what human life is?

3) The IDF tries to prevent civilian casualties as much as possible, I as an Israeli think the Palestinians should take care of their terrorist so we won't have to and so spare the loss of human life.

4)I don't think the building of settlements will end the war but I'm not sure tearing them down will also do so. A lot of Arabs think Tel-Aviv is an illegal settlement and Israel has been surrounded by enemies since it's establishment.

5) You can't be serious...

1. You know. When Poland was split beetween Russia, Austrio-Hungary and Germany poles made many uprisings. Russians were killing our patriots - but their families and houses were unhurt. Even if our patriots had killed some russian VIP. I have read about many people killed in buldozed houses. Punishing family was good in Soviet Russia or Third Reich - not in civilized country like Israel.

Did the poles ever blow up buses in the center of Moscow or St. Petersburg? As it was mentioned before the destroying of terroists houses is not used as "punishment" of the families of terrorists but used to deter the terrorists.

2. I`m very sorry about that and I think, that someone have to stop it. But these reustaurants werent blowed up by these cars.

See Javehn's explanation.

3. It is not an answer. You think, that small children can stop terrorists?

Have you heard of the PA (one of their jobs was to stop terrorists but today they cooperate with the terrorists) ?

4. I don`t mean Tel-Aviw but small villages surounded by palestinians. I wil never go here.

If you will read carefully you will see I have referred to to that also.


5. It is true - I have seen a video and read few articles about that - articles in a newspaper owned by Jew.

If unarmed stone throwers are killed it is only by accident and not deliberately.

[IDFM203]

I like you IDFM203 ! You learned well in your school - are you from some kind of PR department ? what, I thought we not going to make this personal :roll: ….I will ignore you weak attack on me this once in an attampt to try to continue a fair conversation.


You just ignored my question about the Israel Resolutions and started a questioning me about any arab resolutions. no I did not, I completely answered it!! You see those resolutions are written by a biased UN, meaning for the most part it was the Arab block and the soviet black and their supporters that wrote those resolutions… if you expect Israel to obey resolutions written by its enemies than you do so, I personally wouldn’t give the UN the time of day after their unfair treatment of Israel at the hands of the Arabs and the soviets.

But here to make it more clear I have dug back to my first posts here in this forum for I have gone over this before.

you asked for an answer so here it is.....

Lets have a look at the UN and the way it treats Israel for a second. Though Israel was founded in 1948 — over fifty years ago and at about the same time as many other countries in the wake of World War II — its "legitimacy," its "right to exist," are still being questioned and a topic of constant debate in the UN.
Following the 1967 Six-Day War, the hostility of the United Nations against Israel expanded out of all bounds. Between 1967 and 1988, the UN Security Council passed 88 Resolutions against Israel and the UN General Assembly passed more than 400.
In 1974, Yassir Arafat addressed the General Assembly with a holstered pistol on his hip and received a standing ovation by that body. The hostility against Israel reached its peak in 1975, when the General Assembly passed Resolution 3379 declaring "Zionism as a form of racism." This infamous Resolution remained in effect for sixteen years when, under intense pressure from the United States, it was finally repealed. What is the reason for the collective hostility of the UN against Israel? All of this hostility is based on the very structure of the United Nations. In the General Assembly,130 of the 190 members will always, automatically, vote against Israel. The inner circle of this hatred is the core of twenty Arab nations, which initiates the harshest condemnations of Israel. Those countries are part of the larger 56-member Muslim group, which can reliably be counted on automatically to join the Arab block in their anti-Israel Resolutions. And those countries are almost always joined by the "non-aligned" group, which are essentially the underdeveloped countries of the world. They have little interest in Israel, but they are united in their hatred of the United States and consider Israel its surrogate. Each country in the General Assembly counts the same. The vote of the United States counts the same as that of, say, Rwanda or the Ivory Coast.
The greatest outrage is that of the 190 members of the UN, Israel, not being a full member of any of the "regional groups," is the only country that cannot be a member of the Security Council, the most important body of the UN. Syria, deservedly classified as a terrorist state, has just been elected to a 2-year term on that Council. Such outlaw countries as Libya, Iran, North Korea, and even Saddam Hussein's Iraq are eligible for membership. Israel is not.
The most virulent center of anti-Israel activities within the UN. The Human Rights Commission (UNHRC) has classified Israel as the principal human rights violator in the world today. Since its inception, about 25% of its Resolutions have condemned Israel. Such egregious human rights violations as those of China in Tibet, or of Russia in Chechnya don't even come to the floor for discussion. The genocide in Rwanda, the ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia, the horrifying "communal strife" in Indonesia's East Timor, the "disappearance" of a few hundred thousand refugees in the Congo, and the ruthless rampage of the Sudanese Muslims against the Christians are not found worthy of the attention of the Human Rights Commission. Such canards as the "blood libel," that Jews use the blood of Muslims and Christians for the baking of their Passover matzos or of the Israeli injecting Arab children with the AIDS virus are earnestly discussed in that forum.
Much is made of the loss of life in Israel and in the administered territories since the beginning of the so-called "intifada," the civil disobedience campaign by the Palestinians. Every human life is precious, of course. Israel is very much aware of that. But, in view of how long this has been going on, it is remarkable how few people have died, considering the violence and the hatred on the part of the Arabs. The relatively small number of casualties is testimonial to the restraint of the Israeli military and the Israeli government. Who can doubt that the "intifada" could have been suppressed in a few days, had Israel followed the cruel norms of the area in which it is located. Some Arab states conduct wholesale massacres of political opponents as state policy. In 1982, for instance, Syrian president Hafez Assad ordered the killing of over 20,000 civilians in the city of Hama. Iraq routinely executes so many people even for bizarre "offenses" (such as insulting the president) that Amnesty International has given up counting them. Iraq has also recently reached a new low in human rights abuse by killing more than 5,000 of its own Kurdish citizens by poison gas, because they were not thought to be politically reliable. The Democratic Republic of Yemen has periodic mass executions. Even the so-called "moderates" among the Arab states know how to handle civil disobedience "efficiently." Saudi Arabia, where slaves are still being kept and where public amputations for small offenses are the norm, killed over 400 Muslim pilgrims in one bloody day in Mecca in 1987. Egyptian troops killed over 100 people during public riots in 1986. In April of 1989, Algerian government troops opened fire in the city of Souk Ahras against Algerian citizens who were protesting food prices and corruption. 350 people were killed in less than an hour. These are just a few examples of human right violations by Arab governments. All this is besides the Arab countries lack of the most basic elements of human rights — freedom of speech, freedom of the press, free elections, equality for women, freedom of religion, freedom of association. Opponents, instead of facing television cameras, face execution. Those countries do not have to defend themselves against foes who are single-mindedly intent on their destruction.
Finally, there is the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), established in 1949 to assist the Palestinian "refugees". For more than 50 years, UNRWA has funded and administers the so-called "refugee camps" — hotbeds of murderous anti-Israel activity, including the notorious camp in Jenin, which is the source of most of the suicide bombers who have so far killed over six hundred Israeli civilians and wounded thousands more. "Instead of condemning and hating Israel, [the underdeveloped countries] should take it as an example of how to build an advanced, prosperous and competent nation."

With all these facts in mind it is truly a wonder why those Arab nations do not draw the enormous degree of attention and condemnation that Israel receives. I guess after these facts that I presented are understood the only logical conclusion is that the clear bias against the Jewish states and people have never disappeared.



There are enough resolutions regardinf the palestine conflict where syria or egypt is mentioned. Resolution 92 for example. But you still didnt answered my why Israel can break Resolutions like they like why other countries not. now you have not answered my question…again when have there been a single resolution condemning any Arab nation or state?? Go read resolution 92 it is not condemning any Arab state.

Also can you list me the number of resolutions that was written to condemn an Arab state or an Arab terrorist organisations in the context of the Israeli/Arab conflict.


I always thought you are a democratic land and not dictatorian like Iraq was for example. and I always thought originally that the UN was a fair democracy but I guess its not.

We are a democratic land and unlike Iraq, we are civil for if we were like Iraq or like Syria, the death toll would be a hundred times greater.


Shalom :D

[Groove]

When i write i like you i mean it this way and not the other ! ;)

Groove

[IDFM203]

When i write i like you i mean it this way and not the other ! ;)

Groovehehe ;) no I was refering to your school and PR comment and what you implied by that :(

oh and we can be freinds, right? ;) (of course I mean it in a plutonic way ;) )

Shalom :D

[Javehn]

Great , now that you all friends in here .
You have some open question's left , groove and Husar? If there is something that we didn't answered , ask them please .

Ah , offcorse , innocent children throwing rocks on Tanks . Ok.
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20031227/i/r1397893906.jpg

As i wrote above , the use of tanks is without any question , most needed , and most important . Many soldier lifes had saved because of the tank use . If you look at first /second page (not shure which one ) , of this thread , you will find out , that they have couple of things better then rocks .

Many Palestinian had noticed that tanks / APC's behaving in strange manners , when they got close to it . The barrels started to look suddenly in they direction , and even sometimes started to fire . But with every time , they noticed that the soldier would always fire on a safe distance from them , ussually to places like garbage cans , or near them (sorry , i am writting this way , because i can't explain you the exact procedure that used by IDF-OPSEC violation . I can only say that this procedure came to answer suicidal explotions near/at the vehicles).They started to use that fact .
I am not fully understand what you mean by saying Palestinian children fight against tanks - like i explained above , they understood the power of media well ahead of Israel , and started to use it . Bellieve me , that they had pretty good instruments to fight the soldiers , but the children throwing rocks wasn't one of them (except maybe the fighting over World Opinion ) . Those kids doing it for they fun , when they know the soldier can't heart them.

Plus to Palestinians is that this one pictures fantastic on the media , with the fact IDF soldier holds the barrel on the kid . What picture of opression can be more better then that !? And when the soldiers starting to shoot (the way i explained above) , that's better then fantastic for them !! That's all the TV shots they need !!! They are victorios .Notice , that there is not one picture , where you can see IDF soldier firing on children, only when a soldier pick his rifle and shoot (where did he shooting ?? Ofcorse , on the innocent kids !!! ) . Why ? Maybe because he wasted the cameraman also ? :roll:

And why there are so many pictures and videos of children throwing rocks and tanks , and so on , but the real fire fight pictures /movies very rare , and done most of times by Israeli Army cameraman (some of them got killed in action , by the way . Last one got killed something like 6 month ago , i think. Very brave guy ) ?

Think about it .
And more questions .

[Groove]

Sorry i meant Resoltuion 93. You answered my questions. Thank you.

Of course you cant be "neutral". I understand this. But my hope is that you try to understand the palestinan ppl and the arabs why they hate jews. They dont hate you because you are the Jews and they not. They would also hate Christians that much if they would take their land away i think.

I have a question here which i forgot. I saw in many publications that the "Jews" says that Israel was always their homeland. I mean the area down there. But i often saw reportages which sayed that jews ruled this are called israel today for only some hundret years. Could you explain me the "history" you have.

The most interesting thing i saw on TV (Discovery) was that the "Jews" roots are in eritrea. So they are from Africa. Did you know anything about this ? I mean is something like this teached in the schools or what is the teached history of the Jewish Nation before the 20th century.

Thx for answers !

Groove

[Groove]

Groove wrote:
When i write i like you i mean it this way and not the other !

Groove
hehe no I was refering to your school and PR comment and what you implied by that

oh and we can be freinds, right? (of course I mean it in a plutonic way )

Shalom

This PR thingie was like i saw it. Its the right way to "circle" around questions :) Every politican knows this, even yours :)

Of course we could be friends. We have a discussion here. Im glad you can answer my questions as i never had the oppurtunity to ask such things to someone who live in Israel.

As i already mentioned im tryin to be neutral and understand the position of both sides.

Groove

AND YES IM 100 % HETERO ! (about the platonic friends) :hug:

[One?]

this discussion, and all similar discussions are realy a waste of bandwidth to this site. You will argue the same points, people won't change their minds and palestinians/Israelis will keep fighting.

[Deuterium]

Okay to step up to the plate..... What's the answer on the Jerusalem issue? How in the hell do we placate both sides? Neither will be happy if the other controlls the ground.

[UoUo]

Jeruslem will divied into 2...arab regions to palstin...jewish places to the Israel.

Freedom to all the religion...

[IDFM203]

Sorry i meant Resoltuion 93. well my response to 92 applies to here as well

You answered my questions. Thank you. your welcome :D

I hope it brought a better understanding to you!

Of course you cant be "neutral". I understand this. But my hope is that you try to understand the palestinan ppl and the arabs why they hate jews. They dont hate you because you are the Jews and they not. They would also hate Christians that much if they would take their land away i think. I understand all that expect for the fact that Israel didn’t take away any land.

Oh and indeed a lot of Arabs do hate Jews because they are Jewish. (I am talking about elements of the Palestinians as well as large elements of the rest of the Arab world)

but also not all of them do as well!!

I have a question here which i forgot. I saw in many publications that the "Jews" says that Israel was always their homeland. I mean the area down there. But i often saw reportages which sayed that jews ruled this are called israel today for only some hundret years. Could you explain me the "history" you have. not true but I am too tired to do the research…….its there in your library ;)

The most interesting thing i saw on TV (Discovery) was that the "Jews" roots are in eritrea. So they are from Africa. Did you know anything about this ? I mean is something like this teached in the schools or what is the teached history of the Jewish Nation before the 20th century. I know i give long answers but to discuss the whole history will take up pages and pages!!

As for the Eritrea comment, that’s not something I am awhere of. (Now while I do know a lot about Jewish history I don’t know everything so if you can show me links to what your talking about perhaps I can do some research)

Groove wrote:
This PR thingie was like i saw it. Its the right way to "circle" around questions :) Every politican knows this, even yours :) yes I got that was the way that YOU saw that BUT it was wrong for I did not circle around but I gave you a direct answer.

I don’t mean any disrespect but if you don’t at first understand my answer it doest mean that I am playing circles!!

Of course we could be friends. We have a discussion here. Im glad you can answer my questions as i never had the oppurtunity to ask such things to someone who live in Israel. if you keep it civil I am more then glad to have these discussion :D

As i already mentioned im tryin to be neutral and understand the position of both sides. I understand that but this is just my personal opinion, there is no such thing as neutral or unbiased……I don’t want to go round and round on that point but that’s just the way I see things.



this discussion, and all similar discussions are realy a waste of bandwidth to this site. You will argue the same points, people won't change their minds and palestinians/Israelis will keep fighting. "kief alek" :D

Yes your right……I am arguing a lot of the same point's (heck a lot of times I just repost what I have written before ;) )

I know its pointless I guess I am somewhat beholden to my sig, especially the one in blue (not that you are one ;) )


Okay to step up to the plate..... What's the answer on the Jerusalem issue? How in the hell do we placate both sides? Neither will be happy if the other controlls the ground. well when they controlled the ground there was absolutely no religious freedom for other religions.

anyway’s to get past that, on the ground there is already a de-facto division and I think it will just be made official……but understand this clear…Jerusalem is the capital of israel and it will remain under Israel’s sovereignty…perhaps in a final deal east Jerusalem will become officially Palestinians but that is it.

Oh and of course as is now there will continue to be religious freedom for all religions there.

P.S. I see that you have been around, have you ever been to this neck of the woods (eer desert)

Shalom :D

[Javehn]

Well , One , you right , damnit . But what to do , when people will polute other threads no matter what ?? Better they will do it allready in one thread , and even get maybe good answers (if they would ready to listen ) . That was going rather ok , by the way , at start , when people asked some questions about the army , and they got couple of nice answers , i think . Too bad it always comes back to the political stuff , and ruins this thread ...

To groove about question that was asked in other thread: Does the jews / Israeli government really don't want to keep West bank and Gaza ?
Sence there is many emmigrants that comming to Israel .

question: Emmigrants have nothing to do with that fact . There is enough place inside Israel for them to live , and the government isn't making anyone to leave inside west bank/Gaza . Mostly the people that living there, have strong religios spark to Israel land , and they feeling commited to it (West bank was a part of promise land to jews - Yehuda and Shomron clans lived there until the Jews were banished from Israel by Romans) .

If Israel state wanted this land , it would never start building the security Fence (not wall , fence . It's have a very few parts as a wall , to prevent shootouts to Israeli side ) . The so called Aparteheid rejime excuse is no valid on this case , as a clame that Israel builed the fence (called by PA propaganda the wall ) just to took lands from Palestinian side . People of Israel had fed from Palestinians , and they just want to leave in peace and in sepregattion from Palestinian people . The fence is a step to forming individual state of Palestine ( as you know , between 2 governments should be a border , specially if there is conflict going on between them . But that's just me ) , apart from Israel . That can only benefit to both countries - so think why the Palestinian government is against the security fence ??

The "settlements " are very controversial matter in Israel. Unlike what you think, Israeli government isn't united in it's views , and the settlement is one of the hot subjects . The settlements had a little answer to some threats in 1967 - one of them was a forming of the Palestinian state-or another enemy to Israel state that is much much much closer to our borders then Syria and Egypt . They practicly live inside of Israel . That view was wrong , and those days it seams that better to have Palestinian state with fool sebragation , then Palestinian cities in proximity to Israel cities , with thousands of terrorists inside . So , it's not that simple and clean as you think .

The Palestinian propaganda however does make it look very simple in black and white colors , so people with a little knowladge would offcorse see the obvious - Israeli depression rejime that works all together as an oiled machine to accheave one goal - to deppress Palestinian people .

Read this one , if you like : http://www.lexisnexis.com/academic/2upa/Imes/sdCentralPalestine-Israel.asp

Very serious source .

About the survey that jews in Israel wants peace :

http://www.aaiusa.org/news/aainews112302.htm

Palestinians want peace : http://www.palestinechronicle.com/article.php?story=20011226162436709

Oh , and offcorse , famous Europian survey , that Israel is a threat to world security : http://drs.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=survey+israel+want+peace/v=2/TID=F186_64/SID=w/l=WS1/R=3/H=0/*-http://www.proutworld.org/news/nov/20031103eus.htm

Another survey : http://www.gamla.org.il/english/article/2001/feb/ler1.htm

About the Ariel Sharon , you can't be more wrong about him . The man is not the same desicive fighting general that he used to be . After the commity that looked what happened in Sabra and Shatila , and they found him partially guilty , he is not the same man . He is afraid to take any dessitions by himself , affraid that he would be remind about that thing .

[Groove]

Thx for this really nice infos Javehn !

Greetings

Groove

[Javehn]

Here you have a movie that was released by IDF , with an explanation to it bellow . The movie released after another set of lies from PA side .
Here i am giving you example , how does Palestinian Propaganda works .
Watch the movie : http://www.idf.il/newsite/movies/Strike_heb2.asf
(Warning : the movie is long ! And it took me something like 2 hours to find , sorry , i am not good with all this internet stuff , what can i say...)


The Strike Against the Vehicle of the Terrorist Cell in the Nusseirat
Refugee Camp
An IAF helicopter identified a terrorist cell attempting to infiltrate the
perimeter fence between the Gaza Strip and Israel.

Several members of the terrorist cell fled in a vehicle towards the
Nusseirat refugee camp.

The vehicle was identified by the IAF (Israel Air Force). A missile was then
launched towards the vehicle. It should be noted that there were no people
in close proximity to the vehicle.

The vehicle lost control, skidded from its lane, and hit an object that
appeared to be a tree.

>From the impact of the strike, the vehicle reversed, and stopped in the
middle of the road. At this stage, another missile was launched towards the
vehicle - a minute after the first was launched. Only two and a half minutes
later did a crowd begin to amass.

Palestinian version to story in short : IAF helicopter shoot on the vehicle while there were a huge crowd around , killing 12 people , and injuring 30 , many of them children . They actually even took some photos of people smeared in "blood" liyin around , ambulances comming and taking those "dead" children out -Another typical action from IDF side , no difference between children and fighters ..

[Groove]

"nice" video. The second rockets impact seems to be "evil". I bet you wouldnt like to stand in front of a shop some meters away from the car when the 2nd missile hit this car ?

I wouldnt like to be standing there as it seems to be some kind of urban area..

Greetings

Groove

PS: I know that not everything the PA shows on TV is true :)

[Javehn]

You right , Helicopter missiles do have "huge" impact . However , Israeli pilots do watch out in every mission , that no inoccent people would heart ( it is problematic when it comes to helo - sence from it's angle of view sometimes the pilot can't see everything , that he would see on the ground , specialy on build areas ).I pressume you heard about 13 pilots that declined to go out to missions there ....

However , it done by helicopters with following judgement : Gaza strip , and city of Gaza is most prepared "fighting" city in the world right now - This city is one big trap to ground soldiers that would enter there - sence IDF had no operation inside the cities of Gaza , all the terror infrastructures remain intact there . To picture it for you : If Israeli task force would enter inside the Gaza city , or any other city inside Gaza strip , they would be doomed , and be dealt with much harsher then in the movie "Black Hock Down" , if you saw it . And as i said allready , IDF is very low torellable to it's losses . That's why the use of Helicopters .

[Groove]

Didnt knew that about the Gaza Strip...

So the IDF have some kind of "fear" to enter it ???

Groove

[UoUo]

And i thoght the Rafih is in gaza strip..

צה"ל לא פוחד להיכנס לעזה...פשוט אין לו צורך מבצעי כזה...כי כמו שאתה יודע סביב רצועת עזה יש גדר ביטחון.

[Javehn]

It's not fear , it's simple tactical considiration/judgement. Typical incursion operation , like , to arrest important terrorist deap in the heart of Gaza ( I am talking mostly about the city of Gaza itself- nest of terror ) , cannot be done by ground forces in in/out operation without primature long "preparation" of the cities .

However , in the late times IDF forces started to make some limited operations in the outscirts of Gaza city , Rafah , and a large scale operations in northern parts of Gaza strip cities .

[Javehn]

Ok , i would like to tell a little personal story here about couple of things that happend to me in my IDF service , that you would better understand what is going on there , and not to make that thread boring as hell :


Couple of years ago , the city of Jenin . My tank platoon was sent to
impose cuerfew on the city , after terrorist attack went out from this city . Ussually tanks work with infantry together , specially inside cities , so offcorse , we worked together with one IDF's infantry brigade called Golani . We blocked the entrance to the city in couple of points , and in one of the times we were sent to one main road inside the city . We stand there with 2 APC's , one tank , and one APC called "Ahzarit"-Golani armored FV . We were there for a couple of days allready , and nothing special happened ...
One morning , something like 5:00 oclock , i wake up . I looked thrue my optics and saw ambulance getting to our checkpoint - the ambluance wanted to get out from the city . According to our orders then , we supposed to do quick check of Ambulance , and then let the Ambulance out , sence couple of days before Ambulance found with ammo inside ...

The ambulance standed 4 metters from us , when suddenly someone started to snipe on us. I heard the bullets richosheting on top of the turret between commander and loader hatches , and i saw how bullets were hitting the IFV episcopes , and hitting it's hatch (The IDF soldiers don't close the hatches all the way , like custom in other armies , to gain better control on outside world ) .I was very fresh soldier then , almost right out of the training , so this thing ofcorse spooked the living **** out of me , but never the less, we (the tank , and Ahzarit vehicle ) started to perform visual scan in order to find out the fire source . It took 3 minutes , but the sniper were spoted - it was sniper , and his assistent firing on us from 230 metters from behind wall with a holl in it . We recieved clearense to fire , and the bastards received tank round in order to brake the wall they were hiding behind , and long MG burst did the rest of the job . But the main thing was - in all the adrenalin and confussion we tottaly forgot that the ambulance still waiting to pass . The sniper started to shoot just when the ambulance got close to us - not only endangering us , but also the ambulance itself . Lucky to him , nothing wrong happend (only a little concussion to the driver from the shell blast we fired ) , and he went thrue us to Israeli hospital .

Take that example , and learn from it , even if there is much more examples like that ...

[Groove]

If i would be the sniper i would stat running when the tank start to move his turret. They must be dumb at all. Javehn could you tell us more about the Hisbollah. There is often in news about their Katyusha attacks on Northern Israel. I know they financed by Iran but who support them too ?

Ho is their skill ? Are they well armed and do they use military tactics ?

Greetings

Groove