Iraq bars its soldiers from mosque raids

[Secret Squirrel]

Iraq's government said Monday its soldiers would no longer participate in raids on mosques in their fight against an increasingly violent insurgency, banning a tactic that Sunni Muslim Arab leaders had long argued was provoking sectarian strife.

In an afternoon news conference in Baghdad, Defense Minister Sadoun Dulame said "it is strictly prohibited that any employee of the Defense Ministry raid worship places."

Later in the day, Prime Minister Ibrahim Al-Jaafari met with Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, the most influential spiritual leader of Iraq's Shiite Muslim majority, and said they discussed the "participation of Sunnis in the political process," among other topics.

The conciliatory gestures by the Shiite-led government came as a wave of car bombings and slayings continued in Iraq.

Mortars, bombs and drive-by gunmen killed at least 24 Iraqis on Monday, and the new government vowed to capture and punish the killers of at least 50 other people found slain in the past 48 hours.

More than 490 Iraqis have been killed in car bombings, ambushes and other insurgent attacks since Iraq's first democratically elected government was formed. In a grisly twist to the relentless violence, batches of bodies, many of them bound and blindfolded, turned up in several parts of the country during the past week.

link (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050517/NEWS06/505170404/1012)

[sheroo]

Iraq's government said Monday its soldiers would no longer participate in raids on mosques in their fight against an increasingly violent insurgency, banning a tactic that Sunni Muslim Arab leaders had long argued was provoking sectarian strife.

In an afternoon news conference in Baghdad, Defense Minister Sadoun Dulame said "it is strictly prohibited that any employee of the Defense Ministry raid worship places."

Later in the day, Prime Minister Ibrahim Al-Jaafari met with Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, the most influential spiritual leader of Iraq's Shiite Muslim majority, and said they discussed the "participation of Sunnis in the political process," among other topics.

The conciliatory gestures by the Shiite-led government came as a wave of car bombings and slayings continued in Iraq.

Mortars, bombs and drive-by gunmen killed at least 24 Iraqis on Monday, and the new government vowed to capture and punish the killers of at least 50 other people found slain in the past 48 hours.

More than 490 Iraqis have been killed in car bombings, ambushes and other insurgent attacks since Iraq's first democratically elected government was formed. In a grisly twist to the relentless violence, batches of bodies, many of them bound and blindfolded, turned up in several parts of the country during the past week.

link (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050517/NEWS06/505170404/1012)

Man the Iraq govt is loosing its balls. The Soldiers are willing to go but the govt wants to cover its ass. ****ing Beaurocratic attitude even before the beaurocracy is established

[Sloppy Joe2]

i see how it is a very sensitive issue, but a lot of the coalitions major busts on weapons caches have been in mosques :roll: i think the new iraqi government is going in the right direction with the consideration of religious concerns and attempting to help the situation, but tactically it seems like a mistake to me. :|

[sheroo]

i see how it is a very sensitive issue, but a lot of the coalitions major busts on weapons caches have been in mosques :roll: i think the new iraqi government is going in the right direction with the consideration of religious concerns and attempting to help the situation, but tactically it seems like a mistake to me. :|

It would seem to be the right decision if it was something new but even the saudi govt at times has used force to storm mosques in mecca and medina

[Sloppy Joe2]

i see how it is a very sensitive issue, but a lot of the coalitions major busts on weapons caches have been in mosques :roll: i think the new iraqi government is going in the right direction with the consideration of religious concerns and attempting to help the situation, but tactically it seems like a mistake to me. :|

It would seem to be the right decision if it was something new but even the saudi govt at times has used force to storm mosques in mecca and medina
tactically it seems like a mistake to me. ;)
if you look at the intense backlash that the iraqi government is getting from its people on the mosque raids, something needs to be done. such raids are leading to more violent incidents and possibly more insurgents, the after effect in saudi arabia has less extreme consequences. if some system could be worked out to search mosques with the clerics supervision, then maybe it could be an easier compromise. although not as effective, its something.

[Mailman]

As long as Mosques are used for illegal purposes then they should be raided. I would even go so far as to level them completely if they are used to aid terrorists in murdering civilians.

Mailman

[Aerosoul]

Looks like the US would still be able to, though. I say raid every single one of them. It's not like we could worsen our image much more to the Muslim world. Everyone knows there has been tons of stuff going on in the mosques.

[Sloppy Joe2]

As long as Mosques are used for illegal purposes then they should be raided. I would even go so far as to level them completely if they are used to aid terrorists in murdering civilians.

Mailman if you destroyed one mosque unprovoked by any forces on the grounds that it just had weapons, you would have 1,000 insurgents recruits by next day. to many, religion supersedes the need for peace and stable nation. if we were to do that we would find out all to soon that fact as we are now with newsweek article :|

[PhillyMobster]

Looks like the US would still be able to, though. I say raid every single one of them. It's not like we could worsen our image much more to the Muslim world. Everyone knows there has been tons of stuff going on in the mosques.

x2. The Iraqi government needs to decide whether its going to coddle the insurgency, or stomp it out. It was because of some stupid dolts in high places that we didn't clean Falluja out until last November. It should have been done a long time before. Now, we can bet that every single terrorist and insurgent in Iraq is going to run to the neares Mosque every time the coalition turns up the heat on them.

[Pille1234]

Looks like the US would still be able to, though. I say raid every single one of them. It's not like we could worsen our image much more to the Muslim world. Everyone knows there has been tons of stuff going on in the mosques.
You can worsen your image. If the shiites become part of the insurgency, which has not yet happened, the whole thing is lost.

[Aerosoul]

We've raided mosques before. It's time to just go in and clean the place up. If we find a bunch of stuff, which is a certianty, then we'll be fine.

[moughoun]

We've raided mosques before. It's time to just go in and clean the place up. If we find a bunch of stuff, which is a certianty, then we'll be fine.
no, if you destroy a Mosque the Shia would be slightly annoyed don't you think, if they join an insurgency in any sort of large number, then the US might as well pack up and come home, because victory's gone then

[Aerosoul]

I never said destroy the place.

****, just go in with a platoon or more if needed and search!!!

[szr]

Looks like the US would still be able to, though. I say raid every single one of them. It's not like we could worsen our image much more to the Muslim world. Everyone knows there has been tons of stuff going on in the mosques.
You can worsen your image. If the shiites become part of the insurgency, which has not yet happened...And won't happen. Too many acts of violence are commited by the main insurgency against the Shi'ites for their two causes to suddenly mesh. The Shi'ites have already demonstrated their form of insurgency and it isn't the same model as the primary insurgency in Iraq. The Shi'ites formed multi-faceted, high-profile groups with clearly defined relgious, political, paramilitary aspects that could be engaged on any or all of those three fronts, making negotiation and settlement possible. That opposition model is extremely different from that of the main insurgent body, that they and we are currently at war with.

[Praetorian 05]

You people crack me up! You really think that we will win their hearts and minds as long as we don't offend them in one silly ass way or another. **** That! The Sunnis, Shiites and all the ****bag tribes, sects and Bastardized family/tactical units will never except infidels on the same planet with them. Much less helping, guiding, loving, or conjoling them. So **** them all and their domed churches; they sure as hell didn't care about our tall or five-sided buildings.
As long as we are there and need to protect our personnel, we need to burn every building that is used against us and kill every SOB that raises his hand against us. After all the radical muslims are dead, then and only then, will we have accomplished a peacemaking mission.

[Umm-Qasr]

If the mosque is indeed being used to store weapons and start attacks in any form, which has happend a lot, then just raid it. But I think that this step is just a political one, since the new minister is a Sunni ... It's just an excuse to 'crush the infidels' ... :|

[GrimmyRX]

You people crack me up! You really think that we will win their hearts and minds as long as we don't offend them in one silly ass way or another. f*** That! The Sunnis, Shiites and all the ****bag tribes, sects and Bastardized family/tactical units will never except infidels on the same planet with them. Much less helping, guiding, loving, or conjoling them. So f*** them all and their domed churches; they sure as hell didn't care about our tall or five-sided buildings.
As long as we are there and need to protect our personnel, we need to burn every building that is used against us and kill every SOB that raises his hand against us. After all the radical muslims are dead, then and only then, will we have accomplished a peacemaking mission.

So once you're finished destroying all the mosques (cause you can be damn sure that the first time you level one, you're going to have a LOT of pissed off people on your hands) you'll have to go and kill all the muslims in Iraq (cause you'd be damn sure they'd probaby not take too kindly to your leveling of their mosques).

You know what? Why don't you just have the population of each city line up against the walls and shoot them instead. Less property damage that way.

[Praetorian 05]

So once you're finished destroying all the mosques (cause you can be damn sure that the first time you level one, you're going to have a LOT of pissed off people on your hands) you'll have to go and kill all the muslims in Iraq (cause you'd be damn sure they'd probaby not take too kindly to your leveling of their mosques).
Dude, there have already been quite a few Mosques leveled.


You know what? Why don't you just have the population of each city line up against the walls and shoot them instead. Less property damage that way.
Not a bad idea; but first we give them the option of converting to Christianity. :bash:


So you feel that by conjoling the radical muslims our problems will be solved?
Have you any actual experience in dealing with these Muslim insurgents?
Do you understand the radical Muslim way of thinking?
What was your first thought when you first saw the burned bodies of the Blackwater guys hanging from the bridge? Did you think that maybe these radical muslims might just not be the sensible kind?
What about 911?
You probably feel that we Americans shouldn't have built the World Trade Center buildings right in the way of novice Muslim pilots.
FK Off!

[Sloppy Joe2]

So once you're finished destroying all the mosques (cause you can be damn sure that the first time you level one, you're going to have a LOT of pissed off people on your hands) you'll have to go and kill all the muslims in Iraq (cause you'd be damn sure they'd probaby not take too kindly to your leveling of their mosques).
Dude, there have already been quite a few Mosques leveled.


You know what? Why don't you just have the population of each city line up against the walls and shoot them instead. Less property damage that way.
Not a bad idea; but first we give them the option of converting to Christianity. :bash:


So you feel that by conjoling the radical muslims our problems will be solved?
Have you any actual experience in dealing with these Muslim insurgents?
Do you understand the radical Muslim way of thinking?
What was your first thought when you first saw the burned bodies of the Blackwater guys hanging from the bridge? Did you think that maybe these radical muslims might just not be the sensible kind?
What about 911?
You probably feel that we Americans shouldn't have built the World Trade Center buildings right in the way of novice Muslim pilots.
FK Off! so you believe we should begin a mass genocide of the people of once religion, wow that sounds familar :roll: look at your thinking for one second, you are going to let the actions of a few thousand people represent a religion of billions :slap:
you live in america right? well so do i, go look at the first amendment and tell me what it says then look at what you said and look at what is wrong :bash:

[Praetorian 05]

Dude if you think that I'm serious about genocide of an entire race, then you need to get out of the house more often. I clearly stated that we should smoke every building and every person that raises their hand against us inorder to protect our forces. Selective and surgical does not work in a counterinsurgency op. (You can not shoot only the bad guys wearing red shirts, or knock down only the buildings that are valued less than $5K.) You must convey to the insurgents and the local population that you are willing to go the distance to beat them. Then the locals will start working against the insurgents inorder to protect what is theirs. Once you have the locals working with you, then you go into surgical strike mode.
Arabs perceive an unwillingness to fight all out as a weakness on our part; therefore they use places like mosques, schools, hospitals, etc. as staging points. They certainly would not hesitate to conduct an operation against one of our schools, hospitals, trade centers, etc.
You speak highly of the First Amendment; how do feel and the Second?

[Sloppy Joe2]

Dude if you think that I'm serious about genocide of an entire race, then you need to get out of the house more often. I clearly stated that we should smoke every building and every person that raises their hand against us inorder to protect our forces. Selective and surgical does not work in a counterinsurgency op. (You can not shoot only the bad guys wearing red shirts, or knock down only the buildings that are valued less than $5K.) You must convey to the insurgents and the local population that you are willing to go the distance to beat them. Then the locals will start working against the insurgents inorder to protect what is theirs. Once you have the locals working with you, then you go into surgical strike mode.
Arabs perceive an unwillingness to fight all out as a weakness on our part; therefore they use places like mosques, schools, hospitals, etc. as staging points. They certainly would not hesitate to conduct an operation against one of our schools, hospitals, trade centers, etc.
You speak highly of the First Amendment; how do feel and the Second? sorry about misunderstanding you :D as you have probably seen there has been a surge in ediots lately on mp.net, just mistaken your sarcastic statement for one :hug:
i agree completely when you say we need to protect our troops and when you say we need to have support of the people, but show in force on certain targets is not the way. for every time we raid or damage a mosque it brings negativity against us and even supporters and recruits for insurgents. the people of iraq will not see this as a sign of weakness, they will see this as a sign of respect for a very important part of their lives and very large concern. remember support from the people is a larger battle then that against the insurgents, if we have them with us we can get things done quicker and happier (means no more recruits) thus allowing coalition troops to exit the situation. i do not believe the iraqi government would have done this unless under a lot of pressure from the people.

[Praetorian 05]

A word from someone who has been there and done that; when you designate a specific area as a "no fire zone", who do you think takes up residence? When they take up residence they start bothering/recruiting the locals with little things like coercion by threatening family members and such. This in turn makes it look as if the locals are now against the controlling government and it brings increased military action in and around the area. The locals then get hurt and it does lead to some actually aiding the insurgents on their accord. And so continues the cycle of a Counter/Insurgency Operation. The everyday Iraqis are not totally oblivious to this and therefore do not create the commotion about a mosque getting raided and leveled if necessary as much as is portrayed. The crap you see in the media is much blown out of proportion and the protesters are not always from the local area around the mosque. It's all propaganda. And the "educated" of the world fall for it and create political pressure to stop such acts. The Insurgents know this and use it to their advantage.

[Sloppy Joe2]

A word from someone who has been there and done that; when you designate a specific area as a "no fire zone", who do you think takes up residence? When they take up residence they start bothering/recruiting the locals with little things like coercion by threatening family members and such. This in turn makes it look as if the locals are now against the controlling government and it brings increased military action in and around the area. The locals then get hurt and it does lead to some actually aiding the insurgents on their accord. And so continues the cycle of a Counter/Insurgency Operation. The everyday Iraqis are not totally oblivious to this and therefore do not create the commotion about a mosque getting raided and leveled if necessary as much as is portrayed. The crap you see in the media is much blown out of proportion and the protesters are not always from the local area around the mosque. It's all propaganda. And the "educated" of the world fall for it and create political pressure to stop such acts. The Insurgents know this and use it to their advantage. thanks for your insight praetorian, made a lot of sense :D for a second i forgot about the work you do :lol: