Part of Korean air war in pics

[Kingpin]

Attention: destroyed US equipment! :)

Here was very hot discussion about Korean war somewhere on this forum. This is just free add-on.

Ok. Here we go. Morning of 1st August 1952

http://www.airforce.ru/awm/ivanov/ivanov9.jpg


F-86E-10-NA (s/n 51-2767) "The Chopper". Pilot:Felix Asia, Jr. Nearly ace: 4 confirmed kills, one unconfirmed.



http://www.airforce.ru/awm/ivanov/ivanov7.jpg


MiG-15bis (s/n 2515302) Pilot: Cpt. Ivanov, newbie from 726 IAP 133 IAD


http://www.airforce.ru/awm/ivanov/ivanov2.jpg


Sabre of Asia took off for it mission but on his way he met Mr. Ivanov


http://www.airforce.ru/awm/ivanov/ivanov3.jpg


F-86 on gun camera of MiG-15.

http://www.airforce.ru/awm/ivanov/ivanov5.jpg http://www.airforce.ru/awm/ivanov/ivanov6.jpg


Consequences of meeting. Mr. Asia didn't become ace after all.


http://www.airforce.ru/awm/ivanov/ivanov1.jpg


Cpt. Ivanov (Became Maj. Ivanov after Korean war) with colleagues in August 1952

[UoUo]

No matther what you going to say...the history tell us that all the wars between Usa equipment vs Soviet equipment....the Usa equipment always won.


woot woot

[Trigger]

There's only five guys in that last pic. Are they the only ones who survived?
Where's the 15 MiGs that accompanied the F-86 to the scrap heap.
Korean War had a 15:1 kill ratio in favor of the Americans.
Just sayin'

[MolliG]

No matther what you going to say...the history tell us that all the wars between Usa equipment vs Soviet equipment....the Usa equipment always won.

But most of the Soviet equipment is more than likely manned by 'poorly' trained crews (etc) and also not in the numbers the Soviets would have used (and there is support, et cetera, et cetera...).

;)

[Undo]

This could be a VERY interesting thread, but will not be if it becomes a US vs USSR equipment debate or a kill ratio debate. Both of these issues are highly contentious and subject to too much interpritation, or in the case of kill ratios, just plain wrong (even USAF no longer claims anything near 15:1).

I would like to here more about soviet participation in the air war and would love to see more soviet pics from this era if Kingpin has them.

I heard that USN panthers shot down two USSR (not chinese or NK) mig 15s near northern china (?) thinking that they were chinese. I heard that the USN was waiting for bad things to happen, but USSR never acknowledged the loss. Could it be because soviet pilots were fighting in NK and the USSR didn't want to make an issue of it?

I have also read that Russian pilots were not allowed to fly over enemy territory to avoid the possibility of being captured and that if they did find themselves "down south" they were instructed to fly out to see and eject near a soviet airguard ship. Any truth to this?

[UoUo]

No matther what you going to say...the history tell us that all the wars between Usa equipment vs Soviet equipment....the Usa equipment always won.

But most of the Soviet equipment is more than likely manned by 'poorly' trained crews (etc) and also not in the numbers the Soviets would have used (and there is support, et cetera, et cetera...).

;)

Why is that ? cuz you think that arab are more stupaid then let's say...hmmm americans or france people ? or israelis ?

The fact is that the arab fighter have very high moral...and have faith....this is very important factor.

[MolliG]

No matther what you going to say...the history tell us that all the wars between Usa equipment vs Soviet equipment....the Usa equipment always won.

But most of the Soviet equipment is more than likely manned by 'poorly' trained crews (etc) and also not in the numbers the Soviets would have used (and there is support, et cetera, et cetera...).

;)

Why is that ? cuz you think that arab are more stupaid then let's say...hmmm americans or france people ? or israelis ?

The fact is that the arab fighter have very high moral...and have faith....this is very important factor.

No :cantbeli:.

Imagine, for some reason or another, you have M60s with American crews (well supplied, high on morale, have air support) and T72s with, let's say, Somali crews ('ok' supplied, high on morale, a few mortars for support), pitted together. Now the Americans have gone through extensive training, whilst the Somalis have been shown the tanks had a little go with them then put on the front lines... Experience being their training.

Now imagine the same situation but with well-trained, Finnish, or even Russian crews (both well supplied, high on morale, have air support) in the T72s...

Do you see what I mean?

:)

*The M60s and T72s being at a level of modification so that they are 'equal'.


Now back on topic ;)...

[2Sheds_Jackson]

No matther what you going to say...the history tell us that all the wars between Usa equipment vs Soviet equipment....the Usa equipment always won.

But most of the Soviet equipment is more than likely manned by 'poorly' trained crews (etc) and also not in the numbers the Soviets would have used (and there is support, et cetera, et cetera...).

;)

Why is that ? cuz you think that arab are more stupaid then let's say...hmmm americans or france people ? or israelis ?

The fact is that the arab fighter have very high moral...and have faith....this is very important factor.

UoUo - I think you took that wrong. The fact is that the US did have better training (and still does) - primarily because we have more money to throw at it. That being said, the Soviets had better training than the Chinese and the NKs. Nobody is questioning anybody else's intelligence or morale etc...just the training infrastructure.

About faith & morale, that's a tough one. I guess if you deluded yourself into thinking that God would take care of everything for you, you'll do very dangerous things. But that's a double edged sword. Bold action can catch an enemy off guard & be successful. Or maybe they'd just wind up being cannon fodder, like those poor bastards in the Iranian human wave attacks. Pitiful.

[Whistler]

I heard that USN panthers shot down two USSR (not chinese or NK) mig 15s near northern china (?) thinking that they were chinese. I heard that the USN was waiting for bad things to happen, but USSR never acknowledged the loss. Could it be because soviet pilots were fighting in NK and the USSR didn't want to make an issue of it?

I know the incident you are refferring too. Happened in 1952

The USS Oriskany was steaming somewhere near Vladivostok when Soviet Mig-15s attacked 2 patrolling F9F Panthers. The US Panthers evaded, had a dogfight, and the American Navy pilots mopped the floor with the Soviets.

One of the few real Soviet-US (as in Soviet marked planes vs US marked planes) encounters of the Cold War.

http://home.att.net/~historyworld/VF-781.html

http://home.att.net/~historyworld/MiG-15Kill.JPG
Mig-15 bites the dust.

[Trigger]

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/korea50/k50-2a.jpg

"The MiG-15 was good, but hardly the superfighter that should strike terror in the heart of the West…There was no question that the
F-86 was the better fighter."
-No Kum-Sok, North Korean fighter pilot who defected in 1953 after flying nearly 100 combat missions in the MiG-15

The control of the skies over Korea was the primary mission of the USAF. After defeating the small North Korean Air Force in the first month of the war, USAF pilots were later challenged by Soviet, Chinese, and North Korean pilots in nimble, swept-wing MiG-15 jets. The winning combination of the new F-86 "Sabre" and skilled USAF pilots led to a kill ratio of about 8:1 against the MiG, and ensured that UN forces on the ground need not fear the enemy in the skies.

The US Air Force counter to the MiG threat was the swept-wing, F-86 "Sabre" jet fighter. The F-86A entered combat in mid-December and quickly proved its worth. The MiG-15 versus the F-86 in Korea has long been the subject of comparison. While the MiG-15 enjoyed some performance advantages against early model F-86s, it also suffered serious vices that killed a number of its pilots. The F-86 was a better gun platform and could dive faster. Ultimately, any MiG-15 performance advantages over the Sabre were more than offset by the superior quality of American pilots. Whenever the Communists tried to challenge UN air superiority they suffered heavy losses from USAF Sabres almost every time.

The combination of the F-86 Sabre and the superior quality of USAF pilots denied the Communist armies air cover and gave protection to UN forces on the ground. Except on isolated occasions, UN ground troops seldom saw a Communist aircraft, while enemy soldiers suffered under relentless UN air attack. In the primary role of air control, the US Air Force performed both brilliantly and successfully in its first combat test as a separate service.

Kingpin, you may now kiss my ass. :bash:

undo: My bad, it was only 8:1 by these estimates. Still an ass kicking by the Yanks, as usual.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/korea50/k50-2.htm

[Ratamacue]

Unofficially, the Soviets had many pilots that fought for North Korea during the war.

[Kingpin]

15:1 and even 10:1 is just US airforce legend :)

Soviet pilot remembering that in the beginnig of war they scored at 10 downed US planes per 1 soviet downed. And only in 1952 and later situation shifted to 1:1 kills.

Unfortunately i don't have time to translate all their memoirs. So i will do only quoting of english materials

I suppose in 1952-53 both sides downed approximately equal number of enemy planes. But from end of 1950 to end of 1951 Soviet pilots scored much more (during this year in Korea was squadrons of best pilots under command of general Kozhedub). Later in 1951 they were replaced by other pilots.

From www.acepilots.com



Claims
The numbers shown above (on this web page), and used throughout, are claims, and are almost certainly in excess of the actual number of MiGs downed. During the war the USAF pilots claimed over 800 enemy planes. Postwar research revised that figure downward to 379, which closely matches the admitted Russian losses of 345. The Air Force has not disclosed, perhaps does not fully know, which pilot claims to revise, so the contemporary numbers stand, although, as in all claims for aerial victories, the claims exceed the other side's documented losses.


Adjusted Claims per Soviet Data
In the years since the breakup of the old Soviet Union, records relating to the Korean War have come to light. Aviation history researchers like Cookie Sewall and Diego Zampini have pored over these records and have been able to correlate Soviet records of specific aerial battles on specific dates, and thus documented certain over-claims by the USAF pilots. As noted above, over-claims have occurred in all wars and amongst all combatant nations. John Lundstrom similarly researched American overclaims versus Japanese air forces in WW2.
The adjusted claims shown here in no way detract from the heroic accomplishments of the aces. In any historical research, accuracy is all-important; without striving for accuracy (within the limits of resources, documents, archaelogical evidence, etc.) it is not history, it is merely story-telling.

The "Adjusted Claims" column represents a work in progress. As no Chinese archives have been opened up at this time, only USAF claims against Russian air forces have been reviewed. (In other words, the claims against Chinese air forces are counted here, without any challenge.) I hope to provide more documentation, identifying the dates and circumstances of the reduced claims. The "n.a" simply means that I have no information about any adjustments for that pilot; the USAF number should stand.




Major Robinson 'Robbie' Risner
336th Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Interceptor Wing
Describes his win over soviet pilot.

On October 22, 1952, he was flying escort for some fighter-bombers; to screen them, he had to fly across the Yalu, right above the big Chinese air base at Antung. He immediately encountered four MiGs that turned and flew deeper into China. Staying with them anyway, Risner fired at extreme range at the tail-end Charlie and shattered his canopy glass. As the MiG pilot twisted and dodged, Risner caught his plane with another burst. Almost down on the deck, the Communist flier started a split-S, and to Risner's amazement pulled out of it in a dry river bed. Risner pursued through the MiG's jet wash and dust that it kicked up. Through more tortuous maneuvers, Risner could barely stay with the enemy plane. Risner himself described the chase in Eric Hammel's Aces in Combat, Volume 5:
"He was not in very good shape, but he was a great pilot - and he was fighting like a cornered rat!
He chopped the throttle and threw his speed brakes out. I coasted up, afraid that I'd overshoot him. I did a roll over the top of him, and when I came down on the other side, I was right on his wing tip. We were both at Idle with our speed brakes out, just coasting.

He looked over at me, raised his hand, and shook his fist. I thought 'This is like a movie. This can't be happening!' He had on a leather helmet and I could see the stitching in it."

[DE_Six]

Oh no, not again...This thread starts to sound like those that could be found during the Kosovo air campaign in 1999, with Serb supporters claiming that the JNA air defense had downed some 200 NATO aircrafts (including a B2 bomber, no less) in the first 48 hours of the war...
I still have recurrent headaches from the dead-end debates...
So please, please, to whom it all may concern, please don't bring back those debates. And for Pete's sake, no more .ru aviation-related URLs packed with fantasy claims, they make me sick in the tummy...

[Kingpin]

Oh no, not again...This thread starts to sound like those that could be found during the Kosovo air campaign in 1999, with Serb supporters claiming that the JNA air defense had downed some 200 NATO aircrafts (including a B2 bomber, no less) in the first 48 hours of the war...
I still have recurrent headaches from the dead-end debates...
So please, please, to whom it all may concern, please don't bring back those debates. And for Pete's sake, no more .ru aviation-related URLs packed with fantasy claims, they make me sick in the tummy...

1. This is NOT dead end discussion because Russian archives about Korean airwar now open and everyone who have enough time can check them personally about all those claims. Don't forget - every kill was documented with all available reports (not only from pilots but also from ground troops) and with photos.

2. DURING Kosovo campaign US forces also claimed a lot of different interesting things. For example they claimed almost complete destruction of yugoslavian armor in Kosovo. After war stopped we all have seen endless columns of Yugoslavian armor leaving Kosovo.

3. Western governoments always use basic rule: anything that didn't reported in media didn't happen. And if it was reported - it happened. For example 51st Iraqi division surrender was reported by media and only after several days it's all turned to be fake. You reported taking over Basrah 5 times. :) Basrah has been taken only after fall of Baghdad. That's why i do not trust in numbers from US sources as you don't trust in numbers from RU sources.

BTW www.acepilots.com not RU source rofl rofl rofl

[ShotOver]

aaaaw, Poor kingpin... didnt perform well in bed with his husband, now he has to come on here and start an argument to try and make himself feel like a big man again.. :petting:

[Kingpin]

aaaaw, Poor kingpin... didnt perform well in bed with his husband, now he has to come on here and start an argument to try and make himself feel like a big man again.. :petting:

Can't say smth useful? Don't cry baby and go to Humour Forum - this is place for you.

[ShotOver]

Me? Say somthing usefull? hahahahahahaha rofl

[perdurabo]

ok stop that you idiots :bash: ;-) it happened 50years ago so why arguing? is it thing that can change whole world ? :)
ok Kingpin face it fighter pilots aren't born they are trained yes some ppl have better coordination so they can be better than others i made few flights its hard job if you don't train it all the time you will not be god at it. It's not jerking off -witch comes naturally ;-)
Yes russian constructors Polikarpov Sukchoi Mikoyan Yakovlev and my favourite Oleg Antonov (for AN-2 it's prabably the best plane ever build ;-) -i made few fligts in pilots cabin when i was kid great memories) are realy great Su fighters now are superb in aerobatics, but how meany russian pilots have/had above 2000 hours in the air? how often they fly? usa have more money and they put more money on trainings our (Polish) pilots are great but they still spend not enough time in air :(
second thing is equpipment maybe equal (F86 vs MiG15) dont know [ i would prefer to have flying Lim (Polish copy of MiG15) than Sabre :) ]
third thing is field maintence and ...-ee aaa **** i've lost word:/ hmm maybe how good plane comes frome factory? how meany falitures it have and how is produced?
if americans have close to big airbases wiich can make general maitence on high level and NK don't then redines of NK MiGs will be lower than american :] and if Us have better control on their planes factory they have better build planes in line :)

[George W. Bush]

tell me are all russians this stupid? go commit some more warcrimes in chechnya. you talk so much crap yet your country was the one sending thousands of greenhorn army conscripts to die in grozny, argun, and other places.

with people like you living in russia there's no chance for russia. last time i checked we're fighting the same enemy you idiot.

btw your stupid smily faces annoy me.

you should be ashamed for what your country used to be. communism was a completely dismal failure and you're proud of that? i bet you're going to have a party when Reagan dies out of spite because he brought down the evil empire. :) :) :) here's some smileys for you.

[Javehn]

Sorry to say to you , but first of all ,Argun isn't country . Go figure it ..
Second Last time you checked Russians and you fought the same enemy ? Interesting , i would like to know more about that conflict . And third , you are the one that should be asshame for letting know what idiot you are, even on the internet .
About Russian pilots , i know that Russian pilots much better trained (it goes for tank crues and everything else ) . I know about encounter between Russian and Israeli pilots during 1968 when Israeli pilots made suffisticated "Sandwich" ambush on Russian pilots , but still they fought very hard back . After the long battle taking down of 5 russian Migs , soon Russian Strella crues made they own suffisticated ambush knocking down 5 Israeli phantoms .
Russian pilots have different way of control . While Israelies and any western pilot suppose to make his own choices , Russian pilots are controlled from ground radar station , that is one . But even thow , they still managed to fight hard back. And second , Russian pilots were trained to engage and fight only in wings (2 and more plains ) , while western pilots had better knowladge of 1 on 1 fighting .

[George W. Bush]

Sorry to say to you , but first of all ,Argun isn't country . Go figure it ..
Second Last time you checked Russians and you fought the same enemy ? Interesting , i would like to know more about that conflict . And third , you are the one that should be asshame for letting know what idiot you are, even on the internet .
About Russian pilots , i know that Russian pilots much better trained (it goes for tank crues and everything else ) . I know about encounter between Russian and Israeli pilots during 1968 when Israeli pilots made suffisticated "Sandwich" ambush on Russian pilots , but still they fought very hard back . After the long battle taking down of 5 russian Migs , soon Russian Strella crues made they own suffisticated ambush knocking down 5 Israeli phantoms .
Russian pilots have different way of control . While Israelies and any western pilot suppose to make his own choices , Russian pilots are controlled from ground radar station , that is one . But even thow , they still managed to fight hard back. And second , Russian pilots were trained to engage and fight only in wings (2 and more plains ) , while western pilots had better knowladge of 1 on 1 fighting .

Have you had too much vodka, dumbass? I wrote Grozny and Argun where you suffered horrible casualties to please Yeltsin.

Russia and the United States are both fighting extremist Muslim terrorists. A Russian friend of mine told me our two countries are fighting a war on terror and I completely agree with him.

[Russian Texan]

last time i checked we're fighting the same enemy you idiot.

What enemy that would be? Are you that naive to believe in "global war on terror"
Russia is not fighting terrorists, America does. Russia is fighting rebels and freedom fighters in Chechnya...


btw your stupid smily faces annoy me.

Sounds like you have a personal problem here...


you should be ashamed for what your country used to be. communism was a completely dismal failure and you're proud of that? i bet you're going to have a party when Reagan dies out of spite because he brought down the evil empire.

Communism is a utopian concept and can't work due to the human nature. As someone who had a little glimpse of communism in his life, let me tell you there is nothing to be ashemed of. Communism has brought Russia from medieval times into nuclear age and done a lot of other good things. I do no know how much you know about Russia and its history but looked it up and see what it was before and what it became after 1917.

Here is a little example of life in the "evil empire"

Once a year everyone would get about 4 weeks of vocation time that he or she could take at once if they wanted to. Alsop everyone was given "vocation money". I think most of the employers in US would have a problem with such concept.
Most of people would try to get to Crimea to spend their vocation. You know how much 2 way airplane ticket did cost - 34 rubles from Leningrad (it's quite a distance). You know how much a factory worker was making - 180 to 300 rubles a month.
And while it is true that there were no 500 different models of cars, shoes, stereos, etc. to choose frombut there were so many other things that, in retrospective, outweighed the rest: free healthcare, free higher education, low crime rate, unemployment rate of 0%, and so on).

It amazes me how little/perverted idea people what was life like back in the USSR, even Beatles wanted to go there :)

[George W. Bush]

I don't want to hijack this thread but have you read the newspaper lately? The Russians are doing a damn good job fighting terrorism albeit they had a few problems in the beginning.

[Trigger]

Thanks for the link Kingpin ;)
NK still failed to conquer SK despite the participation of the vaunted MiGs and Russian pilots.
MiGs and Russian trained crews using Russian tactics have also had their asses handed to them in other places around the world. The Bekaa Valley comes to mind. What was it? something like 96-0 in favor of the Israelis using western equipment.
Oh well, the argument goes on...

[Midav]

Interesting.

Not going to make any excuses.. we lost quite a few of good pilots over Korea.

Just begs the question, how many Soviet pilots were downed as well?

[Undo]

:cantbeli:

[RomanS]

wangchung wrote:

"tell me are all russians this stupid? go commit some more warcrimes in chechnya. you talk so much crap yet your country was the one sending thousands of greenhorn army conscripts to die in grozny, argun, and other places.

with people like you living in russia there's no chance for russia. last time i checked we're fighting the same enemy you idiot. "


wangchung

How in the hell did this turn into CNN style judgement of Russian actions in Chechnya. What is a war crime? could you please give me a brief explanation.

As for my country sending thousands of greenhorn army conscripts, well we could of finished the bandits with 2 atom bombs, and Dudaev would of run to us bagging for surrender, but we had to go on feet to preserve so called "constitution of peace".
Yes, our privates were not ready for this kind of fighting, and the loss of life was horrbile on both sides. But later on it turned into heaven for AllahAkbar fashion. It became a popular place for the beards from all over the peacful Arab countries.

Again, please DEFINE WAR CRIME

[2Sheds_Jackson]

last time i checked we're fighting the same enemy you idiot.

What enemy that would be? Are you that naive to believe in "global war on terror"
Russia is not fighting terrorists, America does. Russia is fighting rebels and freedom fighters in Chechnya...


btw your stupid smily faces annoy me.

Sounds like you have a personal problem here...


you should be ashamed for what your country used to be. communism was a completely dismal failure and you're proud of that? i bet you're going to have a party when Reagan dies out of spite because he brought down the evil empire.

Communism is a utopian concept and can't work due to the human nature. As someone who had a little glimpse of communism in his life, let me tell you there is nothing to be ashemed of. Communism has brought Russia from medieval times into nuclear age and done a lot of other good things. I do no know how much you know about Russia and its history but looked it up and see what it was before and what it became after 1917.

Here is a little example of life in the "evil empire"

Once a year everyone would get about 4 weeks of vocation time that he or she could take at once if they wanted to. Alsop everyone was given "vocation money". I think most of the employers in US would have a problem with such concept.
Most of people would try to get to Crimea to spend their vocation. You know how much 2 way airplane ticket did cost - 34 rubles from Leningrad (it's quite a distance). You know how much a factory worker was making - 180 to 300 rubles a month.
And while it is true that there were no 500 different models of cars, shoes, stereos, etc. to choose frombut there were so many other things that, in retrospective, outweighed the rest: free healthcare, free higher education, low crime rate, unemployment rate of 0%, and so on).

It amazes me how little/perverted idea people what was life like back in the USSR, even Beatles wanted to go there :)

Hey - wangchung is being a little hard on the Russkies here, but I can't listen to how great Communisim was for Russia either.

Imagine what Russia could have been, with its oil reserves, huge land mass, educational infrastructure, and other natural resources, if it hadn't suffered under Communist rule for so long. They'd be running the whole show in Europe by now.

Russian Texan - don't forget the people that really paid for the "free" healthcare, education etc. Not to compare them directly, but Hitler did amazing things for Germany too when he stole everything and redistributed the wealth. The Communist party did the same thing - putting millions to death in purges, taking the land & all other posessions. Hell, I could give everybody a free refrigerator too if I got to kill everybody in Rhode Island to do it.

I know it's human nature to look back on the good old days...but for an awful lot of people (now pushing up daisies) they were not good.

[Saranof]

Communism is a utopian concept and can't work due to the human nature.

:) I'd certainly like to know how you know of this. Have you studied psycology? Read the Capital? If you had, you would notice that Communism is BUILT around the human nature. Capitalism on the other hand, is unnaturla due to the fact that it basicly means do what the f**k you want. As a species, we evolved and became so successfull, because we could cooperate. Capitalism has nothing to do with cooperation, or democracy.
I would like to know if any of you have read any Marx and Engels, and if so which works?
To straighten things out a litte- Russian was not a communist land. Nor was north korea, and so on.

[Marmot1]

Well back in 80`s in poland there was a joke:
How the polish-russian exchange works??
We gave them potatoes and in exchange they take coal from us....it's your free vacation, on the cost of other nations in europe...poland produced 2 times more food than now and 3 times more coal and we ended with debts in bilions$ after the friendship with russia and now we produce half the food and 1/3 coal and it is to much for our needs do you know why ? everything was send to russia. I have a tag from a radio where is writen that it was made by UNITRA Warsaw and then next line "zdziełano w CCCP" (made in Sovet Union) it is your cool comusnism... of course education was for free but my father was rejected from univerity becouse his aunts husband brother was a cleric.... and my father graduated at the top of his class in high shool... that is fuc...n comunism.... you needed a coupon in poland in order to buy 300.(ca. 2/3pound) of meat and each familly was allowet to buy 1 bar of chocolade per person per month...its your f...n comunism

and about chechenia....during the 1 chechen war you fighted freedom fighters not terrorist and they had great succeses but also casaulties (same as russian army)but when you invaded chechenia in 1999 again most of the rebel fighters died in first months now you fight with islamic extremist from all around the world keep that going and you will fight next war with devil himselve since you try to conquer chechenia from mid 30 in X!X century and you failed in 1848 whe there was Shamil uprising then in 1943 when Chechens were deported by stalin and 1990's and you will fail in in a year or two again since it is a war to the last man standing and there is still around 1M chechens alive despite genocide.......

I have spoken with the polish guy who fighted in chechenya in 1 chechenya war and he described enormus genocides of russian army especialy done by contract soldiers who shoot dead entire villages just for fun then they've put couple of spare AK around just to heve excuse when commanding officer was visiting...

about the pilots well russian pilots are great!!! and i cannot argue that but tactics sux.... the same is with armour.....but in armour units your equipment is great but training and tactics sux.

[Russian Texan]

Communism is a utopian concept and can't work due to the human nature.

:) I'd certainly like to know how you know of this. Have you studied psycology? Read the Capital? If you had, you would notice that Communism is BUILT around the human nature. Capitalism on the other hand, is unnaturla due to the fact that it basicly means do what the f**k you want. As a species, we evolved and became so successfull, because we could cooperate. Capitalism has nothing to do with cooperation, or democracy.
I would like to know if any of you have read any Marx and Engels, and if so which works?
To straighten things out a litte- Russian was not a communist land. Nor was north korea, and so on.

Well, I know this because one of the basic ideas of communism is that everything belongs to everyone. The human nature is to strive for better, be better, have more, etc. In communist society individualism almost equals crime.
As for what Russia could have been, you are obviously not familiar with the Russian history. You know what was the illiteracy rate in Russia before 1917 - 90%. Why was Russia still leaving in medieval times when the rest of the world was past industrial revolution age? Basically Lenin/Stalin done the same thing as Ivan the Terrible and Peter the Great before, they have draged russians, with the help of violence, into the modern world and they used communism as a tool/idea that appealed to masses exausted by sensless war, slavery and poverty.

Like I have said: Communism in its pure form is impossible due to the faulty human nature. To put in kindergarden terms - there are good people and there are bad people, bad people take advantage of good people...

To the guy from Poland
If I understood you correctly, USSR was able to exist solely because of Poland industrial might... rofl rofl rofl

The reason why I am laughing so hard is because I have heard so many times from various economists, researchers and historians: The reason USSR economy folded and US prospered is because while US was selling stuff to their allies, USSR was giving things away or "selling" at symbolic prices due to political reasons. And while I don't know much about potatoes, I know for sure that since the end of WW2 things like heavy machinery, airplanes/helicopters, steel, chemicals, oil, gas, etc. were practicly donated to communist block countries.
In general I do not feel like exploring the issue of "who ows whom" because I know that no matter what stats, data and common sense I present you with, they will never be able to get through that "little guy/inferiority/low self esteem complex" that some poles on this forum have been exibiting towards Russia related issues.

To sum it up, to me communism in USSR represented a tool/ idea that allowed the country to make same progress in tens of years that took others a cetury to complete and some are still not even there yet. Communism gave Russia a jump start that translated into 99.9% literacy rate, highest percent of population with a college degree, space exploration achievements and powerfull military among other things.

[Kingpin]

Interesting.

Not going to make any excuses.. we lost quite a few of good pilots over Korea.

Just begs the question, how many Soviet pilots were downed as well?

We also lost quite a few of good pilots over Korea. Statistics said that chances be shot down high during several first missons when you still green newbie. Good experienced pilot is much more hard target. That's why both sides lost just few aces.

Also to Soviet losses contributed their task: preventing bombing raids of US forces, while US fighter pilots had task only to dominate in skies. So when MiG dealing with B-29 it is soft target for Sabre.

[Kingpin]

Here is good article in English on this topic.
http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws002/migs_in_local_conflicts_part_i.htm

[Kingpin]

And also
http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws002/the_hunt_for_the_sabre.htm

[Nochmal]

From www.acepilots.com



As noted above, over-claims have occurred in all wars and amongst all combatant nations.

I suggest that those who read the links Kingpin just posted also read Kingpin's earlier post which contains the above quote. In other words...the numbers of shootdowns by Russians of USAF fighters probably would be revised downward as well.

N

[Nochmal]

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj89/hurley.html

This link has an interesting review of the Bekaa Valley fight. Not only does it mention how the two sides claimed shootdowns don't match (especially interesting is the Soviet claims about Bekaa) it also examines all the variables that were present in that combat and how all those variables can make drawing any conclusions about quality of equpment (or anything else, for that matter) very difficult.

N

[Kingpin]

From www.acepilots.com



As noted above, over-claims have occurred in all wars and amongst all combatant nations.

I suggest that those who read the links Kingpin just posted also read Kingpin's earlier post which contains the above quote. In other words...the numbers of shootdowns by Russians of USAF fighters probably would be revised downward as well.

N

May be but i'm not sure. Anyway personal vitories of Soviet pilots wouldn't be revised because they counted only personal kills which have strong evidence. Best Soviet pilot in Korea shot down 23 UN planes.

[Nochmal]

From www.acepilots.com



As noted above, over-claims have occurred in all wars and amongst all combatant nations.

I suggest that those who read the links Kingpin just posted also read Kingpin's earlier post which contains the above quote. In other words...the numbers of shootdowns by Russians of USAF fighters probably would be revised downward as well.

N

May be but i'm not sure. Anyway personal vitories of Soviet pilots wouldn't be revised because they counted only personal kills which have strong evidence. Best Soviet pilot in Korea shot down 23 UN planes.

I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say here, but I think you are saying that the claims must be correct because they are kills claimed by specific pilots personally. If you read your own post earlier, you will find that the claims by USAF pilots are all personal claims as well.

It is the personal claims that are so often exaggerated.

N

[DE_Six]

May be but i'm not sure. Anyway personal vitories of Soviet pilots wouldn't be revised because they counted only personal kills which have strong evidence. Best Soviet pilot in Korea shot down 23 UN planes.

Ok, so let me get this straight. When US pilots make victory claims, it's propaganda, but when Soviet pilots do, it's an unquestionable fact? :roll:

[Kingpin]

I'd better answer with another quote:

it is important to keep in mind, that none of what you will read below (Soviet archives about air war) was ever used for propaganda purposes by the Soviet Union, which, officially, never even admitted direct participation in the Korean war.[/quote]

And once again i repeat: this isn't reports like "today i kicked 10 american asses". This is full reports with included photos of gun camera, photos of wreckage (if available), eyewitnesses reports not only from airforce but also from ground troops.