Korean War

[JF45]

Mig Alley for example
Are you referring to Korea when inferior American Sabres went against superior Soviet-flown Migs and scored a kill ratio of 10:1(a little high) or a more realistic 3:1? And the low number is assuming Soviet pilots shot down every F-86, and if we were referring to only Soviet piloted Migs, and not including Chinese.

Or are you going by the Soviet 2:1 that when combined with the Chinese claim more than twice the amount of Sabre's shot down than were ever in theater?

[Kingpin]

Are you referring to Korea when inferior American Sabres went against superior Soviet-flown Migs and scored a kill ratio of 10:1(a little high) or a more realistic 3:1? And the low number is assuming Soviet pilots shot down every F-86, and if we were referring to only Soviet piloted Migs, and not including Chinese.

Or are you going by the Soviet 2:1 that when combined with the Chinese claim more than twice the amount of Sabre's shot down than were ever in theater?

Ok. Here it is:


On April 12, a force of 48 B-29s attacking the railroad bridge linking Korea with Antung, Manchuria were attacked by dozens of MiGs, and three B-29s were shot down and seven were damaged.

(According to Russian sources - 12 B-29 downed, without attackers losses).

Turning back to the Korean Air War: I agree with you that there were periods were the US pilots took the best in the aerial combats. But in the period April 1951-January 1952 were the Soviet MiG-15 pilots from the elite 303 and 324 divisions who won the upper hand - please remember that in such period happened the worst slaughters of the B-29 bombers (April 12 and October 23 1951)- and they shot down more UN planes than their own losses. They even had an 1:1 kill ratio with the F-86s, and as I said before, there were days where fell more Sabres than MiGs.

On April 7 1953 a MiG-15 pilot who would be credited with 5
kills, Sr.Lt. Grigorii N. Berelidze, shot down the F-86E of Harold Fischer
(10 MiG kills), forcing him to eject and being captured. Few days later -on
April 12- another MiG-15 Ace credited with 8 Sabre kills, Semyen A.
Fedorets, could put himself behind and bellow of the F-86E of Joseph
McConnell and shot-up the Sabre so badly that McConnell had to bail out and
carried by helicopter to K-13 (OK, it is far to be told, before to bail out,
McConnell managed to avoid Fedorets and striked back, riddling the MiG with
0.50 bullets and forcing Fedorets to eject too). I want to mean that, even
in the last months of war, Korea was not a ´piece of cake´ for the US
pilots, and the US edge sometimes reduced to none.

[Kingpin]

Additionally:

50 12 22

Vorobyev/177 IAP V-VS MiG-15 1 x F-86 Bach/4th (KIA)
Fomin/177 IAP V-VS MiG-15 1 x F-86
Tishchenko/177 IAP V-VS MiG-15 1 x F-86
Ryabov/177 IAP V-VS MiG-15 1 x F-86
Agureyev/177 IAP V-VS MiG-15 1 x F-80
Meleshkin/177 IAP V-VS MiG-15 1 x F-80
Pugh/4th USN F-86A 1 x MiG-15 1
Eagleston/4th USAF F-86A 1 x MiG-15 (Zub - wounded)
Meyer/4th USAF F-86A 1 x MiG-15 (Barsegyan - KIA)
Odiborne/4th USAF F-86A 1 x MiG-15
Roberts/4th USAF F-86A 1 x MiG-15
O'Connor/4th USAF F-86A 1 x MiG-15


51 04 12

- V-VS MiG-15 12 x B-29 44 MiGs involved; no losses (Lobov)
4 x F-84
324 IAD V-VS MiG-15 10 x B-29 30 MiGs involved; no losses (Golotyuk)
4 x F-80
- USAF B-29 7 x MiG-15 3 x B-29
6 x MiG-15 (P)
7 x B-29 (D)
Jabara/4th USAF F-86 1 x MiG-15 3
Hinton USAF F-86 1 x MiG-15 2
Meyer USAF F-86 1 x MiG-15 2
Lane USAF F-86 1 x MiG-15



53 07 19
16th Air Division PLAAF MiG-15 1 x F-86
Fedorets/913 IAP V-VS MiG-15 1 x F-86 7
Curtin/4th USAF F-86 1 x MiG-15 5 (38th Ace)
Glenn USMC F-86F 1 x MiG-15 2

53 07 20
Sellers USMC F-86 2 x MiG-15
PLAAF MiG-15 1 x F-86F (Sellers - KIA)
V-VS AAA 1 x F-86F (Knott - crashed)



etc. etc.

Let's exclude Chinse and Korean pilots from discussion (i don't care about their performance). Soviet pilots reported their own losses as 1:10 against UN planes in 1951 and 1:2 to 1:1 in 1953

The world 1st jet-vs-jet kill. On November 1st, 1950 was the encounter of MiG-15 and F80. The Soviet pilot Khominyh shot down one of the Shooting Stars. The Americans hide this loss, and did so in future. Many shot down planes were writen-off as "not-combat losses".

[JF45]

So you count bombers and antiquated planes in your kill ratios? A real kill ratio comes from dogfights with the two planes close in technology. The American F-86 Sabre and the Soviet-flown Migs. Bombers are no match for any fighter jet. If you can't shoot down a bomber, or worse, get shot down by one, you have no place flying a fighter.

Fact:
119 Sabres were lost. This is verified. Tail numbers, condition, all recorded. All but 5 lost in air to air engagement.

Fact:
The Soviets admitted 345 Migs lost in Mig Alley.

Simple math and it comes out to around 3:1. Now, if you want to include every bomber and substandard plane, go ahead. But the fact is when almost equal jets fought in dogfighting, with technological advantage going to the Soviets, the kill ratio became uneven in favor of the Americans.

Of course, it's interesting the Russian sources accuse Americans of hiding losses, when they themselves do it, as well as pad numbers and declare kills if a plane simply passes through their crosshairs(or whatever aiming point).

[Russian Texan]

JF45
In you opinion, what is the goal of airsuperiority? And what is the purpose of fighters?

I am going to let you in on a little secret, the purpose of fighters is to win airsuperiority so the bombers can fly their missions unopposed...tshh, don't tell anyone.

Soviet main goal was to stop american bombers and protect key instalations. And if you do some research on Korean airwar, you'll see that they more than succeeded. Fighting sabres was a consequence.
I suggest you look up the number of UN airplanes that were shot down and russians that became aces during Korean war, look at their scorecards then compare it to american pilots achievements.
Here is something that you have never heard of before:

The 64th Fighter Aviation Corps was sent to fight in Korea in Nov 1950. They performed very well, shooting down over 1,300 UN aircraft of all types while losing only 345 of their own. 16 Soviet pilots made ace, with the top scorer being Evgeni Pepelyaev with 23 kills. This info comes from the magazine article, and the author got his info from various US and Russian publications. The 2:1 MiG-15 vs. F-86 statistic is from the "Red Star" series. It should be mentioned that American and Soviet info do not contradict each other with regards to kill tallies. Only if an American plane is brought down over the combat area was it counted as a "loss". U.S. Air Force does not count planes damaged beyond repair or forced to land on the way home. The Soviets do, so their figures are naturally higher with regards to kills.

This makes sense because MiG-15 is considered the better plane. Its just that Chinese and North Korean pilots were SO bad that the US could score a 13:1 kill ratio against them. Many US and Soviet pilots were veterans of World War II. Most of the Soviet pilots sent to Korea were veterans and aces, including Ivan Kozhedub, 3-time Hero of the Soviet Union with 62 German kills to his credit. So pilot quality was even (since USSR sent almost exclusively elite pilots, you could even say that man-for-man they were superior). In addition to their good scores against enemy fighters, the Soviet pilots were the primary reason the US stopped using B-29 bombers (US first switched from day to night bombing and, after 1951, hardly used them at all).

[JF45]

Russian Texan, I got the impression that Kingpin was arguing dogfighting, not air superiority. That's why he fled the Israeli-Soviet debate. No argument that the Mig-15 was the superior aircraft. The problem with kill ratios though, can probably be shown with the first recorded Mig shot down. Americans say the one day, but Soviets show it made it back, and the first lost was the day after. So unfortunately, when you factor in miscalls and the inevitable padding, the only numbers that can be used are from the records. Ironically, the History Channel showed a program on the Mig-15 tonight. Well don't that beat all.

[Kingpin]

So you count bombers and antiquated planes in your kill ratios? A real kill ratio comes from dogfights with the two planes close in technology. The American F-86 Sabre and the Soviet-flown Migs. Bombers are no match for any fighter jet. If you can't shoot down a bomber, or worse, get shot down by one, you have no place flying a fighter.

Fact:
119 Sabres were lost. This is verified. Tail numbers, condition, all recorded. All but 5 lost in air to air engagement.

Fact:
The Soviets admitted 345 Migs lost in Mig Alley.

Simple math and it comes out to around 3:1. Now, if you want to include every bomber and substandard plane, go ahead. But the fact is when almost equal jets fought in dogfighting, with technological advantage going to the Soviets, the kill ratio became uneven in favor of the Americans.

Of course, it's interesting the Russian sources accuse Americans of hiding losses, when they themselves do it, as well as pad numbers and declare kills if a plane simply passes through their crosshairs(or whatever aiming point).

During these times kill can be confirmed only if someone excluding pilot also can confirm this kill. That why some soviet aces have two number of kills: confirmed and unconfirmed.

Yes, we confirmed loss of 345 aircrafts but this number include all losses of Soviet, Chinese and Korean planes like antiquated Il-10, La-9, La-11, Il-2M, Po-2. You "forget" that these also were used.

USA confirmed combat loss of 119 (103) Sabres and 17 B-29. Very funny because according to official rescue teams report they flew 1000+ rescue missions into enemy territory.

According to official US report overall losses of American planes equal to 2837 aircrafts (combat and non-combat). Please explain this number, if combat losses in total according US sources is below 200.

Soviet Union claimed that Soviet pilots downed 1097 enemy planes and this number seems to be more realistic.

[JF45]

119 being the numbers of Sabres lost in air to air engagement. The Sabre was the only fighter that could compete with the Mig-15 in dogfighting, and was still at a technological disadvantage. 345 is number of Migs the Soviets admit to losing themselves.

About arabs we all agreed that they showed themselves as weak warriors and i suppose we should limit our arms supplies to them because they only discredit our weapons.
No argument here. A SSGT I knew recounted to me a story about a Saudi unit he worked with in Gulf War 1 near Khafji. Needless to say, when the Iraqis were rolling in, they went all "in the hand of Allah" on him. Wasn't going to fight or run. Thank goodness for airpower. ;)

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Russian Texan, I got the impression that Kingpin was arguing dogfighting, not air superiority. That's why he fled the Israeli-Soviet debate. No argument that the Mig-15 was the superior aircraft. The problem with kill ratios though, can probably be shown with the first recorded Mig shot down. Americans say the one day, but Soviets show it made it back, and the first lost was the day after. So unfortunately, when you factor in miscalls and the inevitable padding, the only numbers that can be used are from the records. Ironically, the History Channel showed a program on the Mig-15 tonight. Well don't that beat all.

I'm not so quick to proclaim the Mig as the "superior" aircraft. In terms of what? Top speed - accelleration - climb rate - turn rate - gun - range - durability - engine MTBF - performance at high altitude...etc. So many variables. After reading several now declassified documents from US & British pilots I'd say that it was pretty much a toss up - the outcome depending upon who dictated the terms of the fight.

It's hopeless to compare "kill" numbers when both sides pad the numbers. It is accurate to say that the Korean and Chinese pilots were not up to speed (pardon the pun) - the US pilots could instantly tell when they were facing a Soviet driver.

Still it's interesting to see 2 variations on a theme & how the US & Soviet engineers went about making such closely matched but different aircraft.

[Kingpin]

Major Robinson 'Robbie' Risner
336th Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Interceptor Wing
Describes his win over soviet pilot.

On October 22, 1952, he was flying escort for some fighter-bombers; to screen them, he had to fly across the Yalu, right above the big Chinese air base at Antung. He immediately encountered four MiGs that turned and flew deeper into China. Staying with them anyway, Risner fired at extreme range at the tail-end Charlie and shattered his canopy glass. As the MiG pilot twisted and dodged, Risner caught his plane with another burst. Almost down on the deck, the Communist flier started a split-S, and to Risner's amazement pulled out of it in a dry river bed. Risner pursued through the MiG's jet wash and dust that it kicked up. Through more tortuous maneuvers, Risner could barely stay with the enemy plane. Risner himself described the chase in Eric Hammel's Aces in Combat, Volume 5:
"He was not in very good shape, but he was a great pilot - and he was fighting like a cornered rat!
He chopped the throttle and threw his speed brakes out. I coasted up, afraid that I'd overshoot him. I did a roll over the top of him, and when I came down on the other side, I was right on his wing tip. We were both at Idle with our speed brakes out, just coasting.

He looked over at me, raised his hand, and shook his fist. I thought 'This is like a movie. This can't be happening!' He had on a leather helmet and I could see the stitching in it."

For JF45 from www.acepilots.com


Claims
The numbers shown above (on this web page), and used throughout, are claims, and are almost certainly in excess of the actual number of MiGs downed. During the war the USAF pilots claimed over 800 enemy planes. Postwar research revised that figure downward to 379, which closely matches the admitted Russian losses of 345. The Air Force has not disclosed, perhaps does not fully know, which pilot claims to revise, so the contemporary numbers stand, although, as in all claims for aerial victories, the claims exceed the other side's documented losses.


Adjusted Claims per Soviet Data
In the years since the breakup of the old Soviet Union, records relating to the Korean War have come to light. Aviation history researchers like Cookie Sewall and Diego Zampini have pored over these records and have been able to correlate Soviet records of specific aerial battles on specific dates, and thus documented certain over-claims by the USAF pilots. As noted above, over-claims have occurred in all wars and amongst all combatant nations. John Lundstrom similarly researched American overclaims versus Japanese air forces in WW2.
The adjusted claims shown here in no way detract from the heroic accomplishments of the aces. In any historical research, accuracy is all-important; without striving for accuracy (within the limits of resources, documents, archaelogical evidence, etc.) it is not history, it is merely story-telling.

The "Adjusted Claims" column represents a work in progress. As no Chinese archives have been opened up at this time, only USAF claims against Russian air forces have been reviewed. (In other words, the claims against Chinese air forces are counted here, without any challenge.) I hope to provide more documentation, identifying the dates and circumstances of the reduced claims. The "n.a" simply means that I have no information about any adjustments for that pilot; the USAF number should stand.

[Midav]

http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroot/aerial_victory_credits/avc_korean_ab.html

Here's a list and think it would be accurate.

Anyone have the url to actual gun footage? That would drive the last nail into the coffin ;)

I'm curious about this one:

http://www.acepilots.com/korea_aces.html

How would the Soviets know which selected American aces shot down what?

In the end, I don't think we'll ever know the true number if we just go by tales. Each side uses propaganda, and misinformation of course.

The best way to find out is through footage.

[Kingpin]

Anyone have the url to actual gun footage? That would drive the last nail into the coffin ;)


In soviet archives every kill accomplished with gun camera photos. But these archives never been transfered to Internet so only few available. Like that:
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img003/korean-war-038-f86-ivanov.jpg


I'm curious about this one:

http://www.acepilots.com/korea_aces.html
How would the Soviets know which selected American aces shot down what?

They didn't. But they accurately documented how was downed every Soviet (and US) plane. So when comparing to US pilots reports researcher can conclude was particular plane truly shot down or not.


In the end, I don't think we'll ever know the true number if we just go by tales. Each side uses propaganda, and misinformation of course.

The best way to find out is through footage.

I'd better answer with another quote:
it is important to keep in mind, that none of what you will read below (Soviet archives about air war) was ever used for propaganda purposes by the Soviet Union, which, officially, never even admitted direct participation in the Korean war.

[Midav]

In soviet archives every kill accomplished with gun camera photos. But these archives never been transfered to Internet so only few available. Like that:


I would think most countries do that. Would be nice if both sides would finally release everything to the net where us common folks can see them as well.

They didn't. But they accurately documented how was downed every Soviet (and US) plane. So when comparing to US pilots reports researcher can conclude was particular plane truly shot down or not.

I'm not just talking Soviet. I also mean Chinese and N Korean. At best, it is guesswork.

it is important to keep in mind, that none of what you will read below (Soviet archives about air war) was ever used for propaganda purposes by the Soviet Union, which, officially, never even admitted direct participation in the Korean war.

Those are whoms words backed up by what?

Only a fool would think propaganda is not used. Have to remember, even if not released to the general public, there are still pilots, various military officials and government people that read and see some of these things....

[Kingpin]

Only a fool would think propaganda is not used. Have to remember, even if not released to the general public, there are still pilots, various military officials and government people that read and see some of these things....

Once again I repeat: during 50's it was very strict rules in Soviet army about reporting losses and kills. Everyone who was catched biasing this info for some reason was thrown into prison.

As for modern times, i agree it can happen anytime.

[Midav]

during 50's it was very strict rules in Soviet army about reporting losses and kills

Thank you! That's all I wanted to hear.

Merry Christmas :D

[cold0]

Some notes about the air war in Korea, just to restart a flamewar :D :

- The superiority of MIG15 is “relative” at best:

With similar installed power, the Sabre was rather larger and heavier than its opponent, which in part accounted for its high-altitude performance. However, handling was far superior, notably in transients in pitch and roll. Roll rate peaked at Mach 0.60 at 210deg/sec- considerably faster than its opponent. Both aircraft suffered from severe pitch-up (up to 8g) at transonic speeds, although this was largely cured on later Sabre by an all-flying tail. The Sabre‘s greatest weakness was its firepower: 6 .50- calibre MG had been adequate for WWII, but it was less so in Korea.
The MIG15 handled less well. As a gun platform it was unstable, with a tendency to snake laterally at speeds above Mach 0.86 while the speed brakes deployed automatically at Mach 0.92, when heavy buffering started. Whereas the Sabre was benign at the stall, the MIG gave little or no warning; spun at slightest provocation and snap- rolled from accelerated stalls.
So the MIG could stay at 48.000 feet where they outperformed the Sabres but if they started a dog-fighting the things switched in favour of the American fighter. The US fighter pilot had a better equipment, with G-suit and “bone dome” helmet, while Russians and their allies wore the old WWII suits.
In the fall of 1951 the first F-86E models began to arrive in Korea, these had an all-hidraulic flight- control system and a modified tail that simplified turns at high speed. In mid-1952 the “F” model began to arrive, its performances closing the gap between the MIG and the Sabre. It had a more powerful engine, resulting in higher top speed and better altitude performance. The Sabre could now reach the MIGs and this was the end of the “high level sanctuary” and now the “Yankee” had a superior aircraft.

-About the “official” scores of Russian pilots. The Russians acknowledged losses of 345 MIGs, but their claim totalled over 1.300. Given that loss figures are generally fairly accurate and with the knowledge that the combined Chinese and North Korean Air Forces took a significant part of the action and that their losses were heavy, the claims of the sabre pilots look remarkably accurate. The same cannot be said for their opponents, although stated USAF losses are conflicting. Sabre Measures the USAF official study, shows 130 air-to-air losses from December 1950 to the end of the war. To this we must add losses of fighter-bomber, h. bombers etc., plus aicrafts of the USN, USMC, RAAF, FAA and SAAF.
Anyway some of soviet claims are quite strange. For example, according to Pepelyaev, the leading russian ace, 8 Starfires penetrated into China as far as Shenyang in heavy cloud conditions during July 1951. They were intercepted by 10 MIGs and 7 were shot down; the Starfighter was a overweight night fighter, noted to by a “turkey” in close combat. Its range was such that it would have been hard pressed to reach Shenyang and return. The type did not appear in Korea until March 1952 and until November it did not flight over the North Korea. Finally, only 2 were lost in combat both at night, although another 28 were written off to other causes. But obviously the MIGs intercepted something. But what were they? Pepelyaev is quoted as saying: “not everything that was scored was actually shot down!”. Just remember that took place in the lifetime of Stalin and he was extremely unforgiving of failiture. Many russian leaders who fought in Spain were purged on their return. Given the choise, would we rather face the Gulags, or tweak the results?

- To a better view of Russian point of view about the Korean Air War I suggest the articles of Krylov and Tepsurkayev, published on Mir Aviatsi magazine and re- published on Combat Aircraft.

Bibliography

AIRCRAFT VS. Aircraft- Norman Franks 1998
The Complete Fighter Ace- Mike Spike 2001
Russia’s plan to seize the Sabre- L. Krylov and Yuriy Tepsurkayev “Combat aircraft” Vol. 2, No. 10.

[Kingpin]

Russia’s plan to seize the Sabre- L. Krylov and Yuriy Tepsurkayev “Combat aircraft” Vol. 2, No. 10.

Read it some time ago.
Can't start flame wars because generally you're right.

One comment i want to receive from you: why 2500 planes were written off if only 130 planes were shot down?

[cold0]

Because many were shooted downed by the AAA, other by incidents.

Indeed I agree with you that US forces prefer to classified as "unknow causes" or shooted down by AAA aircrafts that, sometimes, were lost in air-to-air combat. For example try to compare the North Vietnam claims with the US losses (I have used the statistics published in the Osprey series); you find that some aircrafts (no much, I remember 5-6) claimed by NV pilots (and very probable downed in air to air combat) was classified "lost by SAM or AAA" (but not incidents!) by USAF or US NAVY.
This doesn't change the overall statistics of the war but the NV MIGs performed a little better that the Americans admitted.

The same thing could be happen in Korea. Really I think that the russian claims are overstimated but that a share (5-10% if we use the same ratio of the Vietnam War) of UN aircraft (fighters, bombers ect.), classified as downed by AAA, was really downed by MIGs.

Regards,

[cold0]

....... And you have forgotten to remeber the the official US study Sabre Measures speaks only of the US fighters lost in air-to-air combat. So we don't have only 130 aircrafts lost by MIGs, but 130 fighters (F-86 mainly)....To this we must add losses of fighter-bomber, h. bombers etc., plus aicrafts of the USN, USMC, RAAF, FAA and SAAF.


Regards,

[Kingpin]

....... And you have forgotten to remeber the the official US study Sabre Measures speaks only of the US fighters lost in air-to-air combat. So we don't have only 130 aircrafts lost by MIGs, but 130 fighters (F-86 mainly)....To this we must add losses of fighter-bomber, h. bombers etc., plus aicrafts of the USN, USMC, RAAF, FAA and SAAF.


Regards,

Yes, i understood this actually. And wanted to emphasize that main target for Migs were bombers while main target for Sabres was Migs. That's why we can't compare performance of pilots from different sides - they had diferent goals to achieve.

So we don't have disagreements :)

[cold0]

Yes. So no flamewar this time! :lol:

[Kingpin]

Yes. So no flamewar this time! :lol:

Many like to talk about Migs and Sabres and only few like to talk how much B-29 were lost in Korea. But this theme very important because B-29 was only western nuke delivery capable plane at these times.

[cold0]

Try[/b]B-29 Superfortress Units of the Korean War published of Osprey.
I haven't it but, generally, the Osprey books are accurate and have some good infos.

Regards,

[Kingpin]

Try[/b]B-29 Superfortress Units of the Korean War published of Osprey.
I haven't it but, generally, the Osprey books are accurate and have some good infos.

Regards,

Anyway i can't buy them here in Russia :(

[cold0]

Anyway you can buy them on internet at http://www.ospreypublishing.com

Regards,

[Kingpin]

I don't have credit card man! :)
Actually it is possible for me to take one but i don't plan to do this yet. :)