Chirac Seeks Law Banning Head Scarves

[pinkeye]

Chirac Seeks Law Banning Head Scarves



By ELAINE GANLEY, Associated Press Writer

PARIS - French President Jacques Chirac asked parliament on Wednesday for a law banning Islamic head scarves and other religious insignia in public schools, a move that aims at shoring up the nation's secular tradition, despite cries that it will stigmatize France's 5 million Muslims.



Chirac said he also wanted to open the way for businesses to impose the same ban, warning that "fanaticism is gaining ground" in France.


"Secularism is one of the great successes of the Republic," Chirac said in an address to the nation. "It is a crucial element of social peace and national cohesion. We cannot let it weaken."


For many French, the Islamic head scarf symbolizes Muslim militancy and fears that fundamentalists are making dangerous inroads in France.


But Muslims — for many of whom the scarf is a mark of modesty and a symbol of identity — say a ban is discriminatory and violates their freedoms. They warn it could provoke a backlash, pushing Muslims out of France's mainstream life and fueling militancy.


Chirac said he would push for a law to be enacted in time for the school year that begins next autumn. Islamic head scarves, Jewish skullcaps and large crucifixes would fall under the ban.


"They don't have a place in our public schools," Chirac said.


However, Chirac said the wearing of discreet items like a small pendant with the Star of David "remains possible."


Chirac's proposal also covers the workplace. His labor minister may, if necessary, submit measures to parliament to allow business leaders "to regulate the wearing of religious signs" for reasons of safety or customer relations, Chirac said.


He also called for a law to stop patients in public hospitals from being able to refuse treatment because of the gender of the treating physician or medical personnel. A presidential panel on the issue included reports of Muslim men refusing to let male doctors treat their wives.


As expected, Chirac rejected a commission recommendation to establish the Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur and the Muslim Eid el-Kabir feast as school holidays.


Adoption of a law seemed likely, as lawmakers from both sides of the political spectrum have voiced support for a law on secularism.


France's Muslim community — 8 percent of the country's population — is the largest in Western Europe. France's Jewish community, about 1 percent of the population, is also Western Europe's largest.


The presidential panel said the law was a way for the country to grapple with what it described last week as fast-growing militancy.


"The question is no longer freedom (news - web sites) of conscience but public order," said the report by the 20-member commission, issued after six months of interviews with experts, religious leaders, teachers and school pupils.


The topic took on new life after dozens of girls were expelled from school in the past two years for refusing to remove head scarves.


France has grappled with the scarf issue for nearly 15 years. It began in 1989 when two 14-year-old school girls refused to remove their head-coverings.





The French Council of the Muslim Faith, set up this spring to serve as a link between France's Muslim and the government, expressed deep concern over the commission's report. It is headed by Dalil Boubakeur, who is also rector of the Mosque of Paris.

"The proposed terms ... seem most discriminatory toward Islam," the council wrote Monday in a letter to Chirac. It criticized "this new vision of secularism which minimizes guarantees of religious freedom."

Fouad Alaoui, the council's vice president and head of a powerful fundamentalist organization, said a law "would be an injustice."

A handful of labor unions as well as the League for Human Rights jointly voiced disapproval Tuesday of a law, saying they "refuse all stigmatization of a part of the population."

However, the presidential panel said public services other than schools also have been affected by militancy, with hospital corridors used as prayer rooms and women fulfilling national defense duties refusing any rescue operations with men.

Head scarves already are forbidden for people working (news - web sites) in the public sector, but that rule — which is not a law — is occasionally broken. A Muslim employee of the city of Paris was recently suspended for refusing to take off her scarf or shake men's hands.

The panel linked rising anti-Semitism with the new militancy, and said another victim was women's equality, demeaned by the head scarf.

"If you take the veil from Islamists, nothing is left. They are unmasked," said Mohamed Abdi, who heads an association that fights for ****** equality within the Muslim community.

"The head scarf is the sign of humiliation, the mark of submission of the woman," he said in a telephone interview.

Commission members said the law they proposed would protect rather than exclude. However, there are fears of a backlash.

"A law will displace the problem. It will turn the head scarf problem into a war on Islam," said Mohamed Ennacer Latreche, president of the small but vocal Party of Muslims of France.

A "parallel community" could develop, and "detach itself completely from French society," he said by telephone.

"This isn't a defense of secularism. It's an effort to domesticate Islam," Latreche said.

[SOG]

:lol: rofl woot

the war: france against france!
the winner: the world!

or actually on a serious side this is pretty interesting especially to how they will respond on both sides since certain things in this area of culture adoptions and break down will be affecting several other countries as well.

looking forward to any follow up posts.

[cut]

meh, read about this yonks ago.

[Vance]

Uh...why ban them?

[cut]

they're also banning skull caps and oversized crucifixes

[fantassin]

Because France is a secular country. That means State and religions have been separated officialy for a century. There is no State religion, no prayers at school, no crosses over the blackboard or anything of the like.

That means you are free to choose and practise you religion but not to "advertise" it in a prominent way while in public (school, hospitals...) places.

[Nite]

Well, i think this is a good thing. We in Germany haven't managed to seperate church and state and this causes only problems.

[Vance]

God bless the USA.*






This can refer to one or many Gods, which ever you choose to worship

[cut]

India's a secular country. I have a note from one of the kids I tought, saying that his hobbies in life were to "work with his father and scolding the muslims" and this was the brightest kid in my class, still at least I manage to teach them (with an iron fist, 'tis allowed there) that christian are not bad. In their school books said things like "India is a secular country" and have pictures of a temple, a mosque and a church and they always crossed out the church and the mosque..

[cut]

This can refer to one or many Gods, which ever you choose to worship

does Allah count as a God ;)

[Vance]

Well duh. Four kids in one of my classes are Muslim

[cut]

I went to an all catholic school so obviously..erm.. a quarter of my class were muslim.. and then another quarter were hindu..hmmm

[StarvingStudent47]

See, in the USA we have both protection against state sanction of religion, but also freedom to practice religion. That means that public school teachers can't lead students in prayers, but students are allowed to express their own religion--and that means wearinga crucifix or a headscarf if they want to. I like the American system much better than what Chirac is suggesting. He's crossed the line from "separation of church and state" to "banning of public practice of religion." The two are NOT the same.

[Seoulstriker]

See, in the USA we have both protection against state sanction of religion, but also freedom to practice religion. That means that public school teachers can't lead students in prayers, but students are allowed to express their own religion--and that means wearinga crucifix or a headscarf if they want to. I like the American system much better than what Chirac is suggesting. He's crossed the line from "separation of church and state" to "banning of public practice of religion." The two are NOT the same.


SS, you're missing a big point: many people in the US actually want what France is doing: banning of religion in public areas. :cantbeli:

[DPGLAW]

WOW!!! I am shocked as hell, I think that this is the first time the French had a good ide...holy ****, a pig just floew past my window...but in all seriousness, this is a good idea.

[fantassin]

Chirac is only pressing for that new law because of the multiplication of cases of (mostly) moslems people insisting on wearing a scarf or even more than a scarf while at school or in a civil servant position.

There has been a number of cases when moslem men prohibited their wives from being treated by male doctors in public hospitals, some cases resulting in the death of soon-to-be-born children.

For those who insist on living a religious life, of any type, they can attend private schools. The irony is that wealthy moslem in France sometimes send their children to Catholic schools because there are no disruptive arabs in the classes...

[cut]

For those who insist on living a religious life, of any type, they can attend private schools. The irony is that wealthy moslem in France sometimes send their children to Catholic schools because there are no disruptive arabs in the classes...

same in the UK although here it's often just as much to get a more priviledged eduction.

[Salty Dog]

"They don't have a place in our public schools," Chirac said.

that's what hitler said, and we all know how that turned out :roll:

[Ratamacue]

People have to freedom to wear whatever the hell they want. What if head scarves become a fashion in France (or rather, the US then France :P )?

[cut]

People have to freedom to wear whatever the hell they want.

Try and go to work wearing a thong and you'll find that's not true.

[the_spec]

Even if running around **** is in fashion, you can't do it at school. Besides, it's generally not accepted to wear any kind of headcover in class, may it be a scarf, a baseball cap or a helmet (happens...).
In Germany they're working on banning these kind of head dresses for teachers, as they are influential persons for the children at school. There were also parents who sued because they wanted the crucifix removed from the classroom. But it is to note that only bavaria has crucifixes in its classrooms, the rest of germany doesn't take it that serious with religion.

[Ratamacue]

In both high schools I have attended, no teachers give a **** whether you wear a hat or not. To say that a Muslim can't wear a headress is like saying that I can't wear jeans to school. As much as I oppose organized religion, I see this as absolutely ridiculous.

And yes cut, that's very true, but last time I checked, a headress isn't normally equated to a thong. ;)

[Salty Dog]

People have to freedom to wear whatever the hell they want.

Try and go to work wearing a thong and you'll find that's not true.

i did and they told me to get the **** out and never come back......i was a pizza delivery boy. :oops:

[mocking_loudly_died]

That’s kind of retarded let them wear their damn scarves.

Another issue that could easily be avoided by logic.

[fantassin]

The top moslem representative in France (D.Boubakeur) has approved this law, saying that the law of the Republic (ie France) are the laws of his country and that since they apply to every religion, moslems of France should follow it.

[Durandal]

Ralph Peters had it so right.

In France it is freedom FROM religion. In the United States it is freedom OF relgion...

France is walking down a VERY treacherous path. If a person wants to follow their religion, be it by wearing a head scarf, a star of david, or a crucifix, so be it, that is a right a freedom.

Germany has already done this and they will sooon learn as well...forcing secularism on an individual is a very bad thing.

The folks that think this is a GOOD idea simply do not get it.

[StarvingStudent47]

A couple people have made references to Nazi Germany, so let me clear something up. Nazi Germany didn't BAN symbols of religion. Last time I checked, they REQUIRED them (in the form of yellow Magen Davids sown on people's coats). It was the Soviet Union that outlawed symbols of religion--and that sure as hell didn't work well.

That said, this policy is bull. The difference between a headscarf and a thong, or a headscarf and a baseball cap, is that a headscarf is a symbol of modesty and respect, whereas thongs are immodest and baseball caps are disrespectful. Baseball caps aren't banned from classrooms because teachers need to see student's scalps; they're banned because they're disrespectful.

Forcing people to do something that they consider ******ly immodest is a recipe for disaster. What's next--no skirts allowed BELOW the knee?

I'm all for assimilation of new immigrants and minorities, but this is NOT the way to do it.

[marktigger]

the problem with legislation like this is it creates resentment among minorities. One of whom unfortunatley has a ready made pool of extreemists who will use the issue to gain recruits to attack western society.
France already has an Islamic terrorist problem and this might make it worse.

[cut]

It was the Soviet Union that outlawed symbols of religion--and that sure as hell didn't work well.



Why not? Just because the Soviet Union was communist and it later collapsed doesn't mean it was the outlawing of symbols of religion that didn't work for them.

[raid]

I'm glad this law is about to be passed.
You have to understand the situation here. Things are not like in the US. There's no reference to god in the constitution, on bank notes, etc... It is a secular country, that's the way it is, that's the way it's been for quite some time. And school is the first place you learn this. It is where kids from everywhere should learn assimilation, not discrimanation.

The scarf is a symbol of discrimination. It sets the muslim girls aside from the rest of the kids. No matter what they say, it is a symbol of communitarism.

I'm really pissed off at them.
First, they want to wear the scarf, then they don't want to attend some classes (like sports), then they ask to get special breaks during classes for prayers, then special religious hollidays, reserved opening hours for public services and so on...(I'm not making this up). Then what? separate buses for muslim/non muslim? separate cities? I'm sorry but this is not the way it works. 90% of the population has nothing to do with them, I don't see why we should all bend our knees and spread our asses. We got to show them the limits, that's it. If they don't like it, then leave the country.
I'd be curious to see how you guys would react if you were to wake up at 6 AM at the sound of muezzin in NY or LA. Well, they tried that too here... The day my country becomes a muslim state, it will be over my dead body.

[Durandal]

A couple people have made references to Nazi Germany, so let me clear something up...

Actually, I was referring to German today...they just had a similar court order that allowed each "State" to do it...and right off the bat, Bavaria was banning headscarves. I haven't checked in on the issue in the last couple of months but that was my point.

In the United States, a perfect example (of your example) would be the Meninittes...they certainly have a dress code and no public/state school is going to have their daighters in gym shorts and a t-shirt.

[Durandal]

BLAH BLAH BLAH

Raid, you know what? You are a dumbfu%k. No one is forcing YOU to do anything and you make it sound you are sacrificing something. They are not forcing you to wear headscarves, they are not forcing you to take prayer, they are not forcing you to do a damn thing and yet somehow, your precious secularism is violated because THEY want to worship that way even though not a one ahas suggested that YOU do it.

In this country Americans have died protecting or gauranteeing other American's freedoms. You are willing to die to prevent people from having these freedoms.

That is sick.

It is nice to know that facism hasn't died out in Europe, because every argument you used against the Muslims was used in 1935 to 1945 against the Jews in Germany.

[obd]

jeez people. Im known as the worst France hater on this forum and even I can see the wisdom of Chiracs ban. Secularism is one of the few things France, and the rest of Europe, have largely achieved which the United States has failed as of yet to follow. I support the decision 100%. People in schools should not go around advertising thier religion. And lets face it, the hijab is a symbol of Islamic oppression no matter what a few Muslum women may think. Think about it: It prevents women from organizing easily becasue its impossible to recognize anyone unless previosly there is something arragned, usually controlled by the man of the house. It turns women into faceless and powerless walking bedsheets. Remmember, women must not ony wear the hijab, they are also expected not to utter a word to male strangers and they are expected t have no male friends. Female freinds are usually approved by husband. In addition, many Muslum women are not allowed to drive (thus making them virtual prisoners as everyone knows the cra is vital to mobility in the modern world), and they are excluded from many jobs. In fact, in nations like Saudi Arabia, women are virtually kept silent and absent from the society. They shop in women only stores, gather in women only meetings, etc. It is all done to "keep them in their place" more easily. FRANCE IS RIGHT ABOUT HEAD SCARVES. DONT JUST SUPPORT IT B/c YOU WANNA BE ABLE TO SHOW THE WORLD YOUR OWN STUPID RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS!!!! IF YOUR GONNA BE RELIGIOUS, KEEP IT TO YOURSELF!!!!!

[obd]

by the way, I support religious freedom but like everything, it has its limits. Lets suppose someones religion told them to beat their wives every day. Should it be allowed because of freedom of religion?? Of course not, it would be preposterous. So of course, it isnt an issue of religious freedom per say, it more an issue of where the limits should be placed on a persons right ot act within their own religion. And I say any religion that creates slaves of half the population must be fought agaisnt. It should not be tolerated. Otherwise, anyone could do anything under "relgious freedoms" banner. There must be limits people!!!!! Think of all the times the curch in history has used "religious freedom" and "gods will" to steal, starve, and opress the people. The Catholic Church comes ot mind here............................

[raid]

Raid, you know what? You are a dumbfu%k. No one is forcing YOU to do anything and you make it sound you are sacrificing something. They are not forcing you to wear headscarves, they are not forcing you to take prayer, they are not forcing you to do a damn thing and yet somehow, your precious secularism is violated because THEY want to worship that way even though not a one ahas suggested that YOU do it.

In this country Americans have died protecting or gauranteeing other American's freedoms. You are willing to die to prevent people from having these freedoms.

That is sick.

It is nice to know that facism hasn't died out in Europe, because every argument you used against the Muslims was used in 1935 to 1945 against the Jews in Germany.

Yeah right. Let's talk about that in another 20 years...
For your information, radical islam is everything but freedom. I thought you knew that.
What we see everyday and what you cannot grasp is that islam is getting more and more radical here. I don't have a problem with muslim in general, as long as they don't force their opinions on me (same goes for every religion). But being waken up at the sound of allahu akbar in megaphones at 6 AM is ****ing violating my freedom, getting denied the access of a pool because it is muslim women access only is ****ing violating my secularism, and having women dressed from head to towes with a scarf and a small cage on their front is surely ****ing violating my equality principles...

And that is just the beggining. Let's do nothing about it, let's bragg about freedom at all cost, and how we should die for it, and within a few years, we may have the pleasure to watch the great come-back of stoning sentences... Yeah, let's have another Nigeria!

But what do I know, I'm the fascist here. Thanks a lot for opening my eyes, I must have missed that point when the GIA bombed our subways and hijacked the airbus plane. They were just peacefully promoting the great islam way of life. Damn I'm so dumb...

I'm sure all afghani women are just happy about wearing burqas... I'm dieing to see my wife with one of these.

[Durandal]

I must have missed that point when the GIA bombed our subways and hijacked the airbus plane.

WTF does this have to do with relious freedoms? The little girl wearing a head scarf or the boy next to her wearing a crucifix has nothing to do with it terrorists.

Personal faith and radical ideological violence are two different things. You have to seperate the two and right now you are using keys words used 70 years ago.

Pure forced secularism is just as bad as forced state religion. The two are the same.

[Durandal]

by the way, I support religious freedom but like everything, it has its limits. Lets suppose someones religion told them to beat their wives every day. Should it be allowed because of freedom of religion?? Of course not, it would be preposterous. So of course, it isnt an issue of religious freedom per say, it more an issue of where the limits should be placed on a persons right ot act within their own religion. And I say any religion that creates slaves of half the population must be fought agaisnt. It should not be tolerated. Otherwise, anyone could do anything under "relgious freedoms" banner. There must be limits people!!!!! Think of all the times the curch in history has used "religious freedom" and "gods will" to steal, starve, and opress the people. The Catholic Church comes ot mind here............................

This is such a "strawman" argument.

The point is, wearing a headscarves is not violating ANYONES freeedom, just as wearing a Yarmulke or Kippot does absolutely NOTHING to violate YOUR personal freedoms.

Telling someone the cannot wear a crucifix is the same as telling someone they have to and you folks do not seem to understand this. Just because it is secular does not make it right

[fantassin]

You are missing the point; the wearing of crucifix, star of david or the fathma's hand will still be allowed; only the oversized symbols will be banned.

At the moment, in Lille, North of France where there are a lot of moslems, they have succeeded in obtaining special opening times for women-only in swimming pools.

That's against that sort of separatism that attacks the fabric of the country by creating a myriad of communities that this law is being prepared.

[Durandal]

You are missing the point; the wearing of crucifix, star of david or the fathma's hand will still be allowed; only the oversized symbols will be banned.

No, I am not missing the point. Are you going to tell a Jewish male he cannot wear a Kippot? Some wear them all day (sunrise to sunset). Why not ban those too.

If muslims want to become politcally active and get some pools to open for women only hours, that is their right...I would hope France has some political, democratic freedom.

A nation the flexes and adapts to social change is good. If a region is a majority muslim then muslim related social changes would be the logical result.

America goes through it every time we have a wave of immigrants...Irish, German, Chinese, Japanese, Mexican, Cuban. Sometimes it happens smoothly, like the Vietnamese fleeing from Vietnam in the early seventies and sometimes it sucks like the way the Irish and Chinese were treated in the 1800s.

It sounds as if France is very close to repeating the mistakes America made in the 1940s with the Japanese.

If you keep telling youself it is ok to attack the small stuff, justifying it for whatever reason, then the larger stuff...laws oriented towards a specific group and camps will be easier to tolerate.

What I am hearing is a WHOLE bunch of super nationalism that ignores common sense using certain isolated issues as a reason to get all crazy. They have their culture, what gives you the right to not allow them theirs?

[raid]

my point is that we were attacked on the ground of religious and political beliefs. And this was not an outsider attack, like 9/11, but a series of attacks mostly carried out by people living in france for years...
Those people were not "sleeping agents" sent to an ennemy country. They were normal people who one day became manipulated pupets. And it happened here, in france.

The people who recruited them were imams, some of them still even exercising as we speak. This is the same kind of guys who are pulling the strings today, in a different manner, by slowly converting people to radical islam by taking advantage of their misery, pushing parents to force their daughters to wear the scarf everywhere, teaching those girls that being seen "bare head" by boys is forbidden by god and so on.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there's a few girls who do this freely, but what do you think most of those 13-14 years old kid would say if you removed their scarf: "god will be angry" or "my father/elder brother will be angry" ?

This got to be stopped somewhere. School is a good start. If it was up to me, all those radical imams would be kicked out of the country...

[fantassin]

You are missing the point because you are living in Kentucky, not in France where 6 M moslems are starting to create too many problems.

If nothing is done to canalize this, then at the next election, far-right parties like the Front National which will have banked on the fact that the gvt has given in to different communities will be getting much closer to power. And if they get it, then it would be very interesting for many...

A lot of moslems and other immigrants would then be in dire need of swimming pools to learn how to swim accross the Med for examples.

As for separate swimming pools, that's how it was in Franco's Spain until 1980...that is in the last european Fascist regime, in which officers were still wearing the non-denazified Iron Crosses complete with Swastikas in the middle until Franco's death. Not a good example by my standards.

Plus, France has kept a firm dividing line between religions and state for a century now; you never ever hear "God bless France" or anything like that in public speeches. In front of the law, religion is a private matter, period.

[raid]

They have their culture, what gives you the right to not allow them theirs

We have our culture, and it is called secularism. What gives them the right to put their religion on top of secularism?

[Adri]

What's next--no skirts allowed BELOW the knee?

hmm, that wasn't a bad idée !!!!!!!! :P

[Durandal]

What you both are missing is that they are individuals. Preventing a girl from wearing an object of religion is not an answer to open violence.

Sort of like getting rid of guns because criminals use guns. It is a joke. The people you end up punishing are the lawful folks who just want to live their lives peacefully.

You are talking about criminals, so you deal with criminals. You can justify attacking a person's religion all you want but ultimately what your country is doing is wrong.

I mean come on. Your government decided to cut out a work week and up retirement to 57 and you had riots in the street. The unions used strong armed tactics and even had a radio talk show host MURDERED for supporting the government's decsion. I do not see France going out and trying to ban unions...

Nor should it, because the responsibility of the violent actions rests on the shoulders of a criminal not a union.

You need to focus on the bad eggs, not the religion.

As far as my location goes, Ketucky is America. It is a State within the country. I am a Libertarian and Kentucky is pretty an open state when it comes to personal liberties.

Take a word of advice. Target the criminals that do bad things...they break a law, they do the time. Do not target a population just because they are muslim. The quickest way to get violence in the street is to take away the personal freedoms of someone or a group of people and that is exactly what your government is doing.

[Durandal]

They have their culture, what gives you the right to not allow them theirs

We have our culture, and it is called secularism. What gives them the right to put their religion on top of secularism?

They last time I checked most French culture was not based on secualrism but Western Franco Catholicism. It is in your art, your architecture, your history, your politics, and your miltary. It is as much of your culture as anyone else's. I am not a religious man, but to claim that religion, in my case the Puritan church was not a part of my culture would be sheer ignorance.

They don't have that right just as much as you do not have the right to force secularism upon them.

For a country that is all about the "European Community" (accepting the national differences between nations to form a community) France seems to be pretty ignorant of the community within its own borders. What it boils down to is that you cannot be French if you are Muslim and you want to protect the French culture (a VERY nationistic opinion). The irony (maybe hypocracy?) would be amusing if it were not so sad.

[Herrmannek]

This is most stupid idea I've heard of rofl , Shirac's fundamentalism defined new term "orthodox ateist"* rofl

Few question to french friends:
-Is "basball caps" will be banned as their users put faith in teams they are suporting...?
-Who will decide that this or another part of clothes is religion related and banned from wearing?


*Seulstriker can you give me adress of that user submited dictionary?

[fantassin]

Your view of France is quite frightening...I wonder if I am living in the country your are describing...and once again, VEIL AREN'T BANNED OUTSIDE OF SCHOOLS AND PUBLIC BUILDINGS !!!!

Religions are a goner in France; the richer and the more educated people become, the less interested they are in religious practise. "Religion is the People's opium"....nothing new...when you are poor and hungry, you have nothing else. Not when you are living comfortably.

Christianity is at an all time low, Judaism has a very discreet practise with only a handful of zealots since those who are very religious move to Israel and Islam is currently taking too much room in the public debate.

The issue is not religion; churches are empty here, only filled by elderlies; the issue is a group that uses religion as an alibi trying to enforce its ways to a country in which it is a guest.

The current gvt has no choice; if you see it in a different light it's because you are ignorant the local political context; people are SICK of seeing arabs getting away with murder and draining the country of it's welfare system. If nothing is done, the future holds something much more sinister (in your eyes, not mine) than the banning of the veil.

[Saranof]

See, in the USA we have both protection against state sanction of religion, but also freedom to practice religion. That means that public school teachers can't lead students in prayers, but students are allowed to express their own religion--and that means wearinga crucifix or a headscarf if they want to. I like the American system much better than what Chirac is suggesting. He's crossed the line from "separation of church and state" to "banning of public practice of religion." The two are NOT the same.


SS, you're missing a big point: many people in the US actually want what France is doing: banning of religion in public areas. :cantbeli:

yes, and it's a stupid idea. Starving is right, no state religion but you can express your religion as long as it does not harm anyone. And religion itsself can't do that, only stupid people :)

[fantassin]

The bottom line is that it's a law meant for French people living on French territory and that a majority of French people is in favour of it.

The rest of the world can regret it as much as they want but basically the answer is tough ****.

Just like some french leftists think they have the right to pass judgement on the USA because some states still use the death penalty; might make them feel better but it's not going to change anything on the ground...

[Durandal]

people are SICK of seeing arabs getting away with murder and draining the country of it's welfare system. If nothing is done, the future holds something much more sinister (in your eyes, not mine) than the banning of the veil

I rest my case. Give any idiot some time and you hear the hate come out...

[fantassin]

Insults are no substitutes for debate.

[morlick]

i totally agree with Fantassin, but it's normal i have not the chance to live in Kentucky.

[Durandal]

Insults are no substitutes for debate.

Ok, I will spell it out in much easier to understand terms.

You say ARAB. All Muslims are not Arab and not all Arab's are Muslims. Arabs are an ethnic group. Muslims follow a faith. A majority of the muslims in your nation are from Northern Africa not the Middle East. There are Christian Arabs, Muslim Arabs, Greek Orthodox Arabs, Agnostic and Atheistic Arabs just like their are American Muslims, French Muslims, Saudi Muslims, and Algerian Muslims. There are also a rainbow of different type of Muslim beliefs...heck, even different fundemtalist Muslim beliefs.

You also bring up welfare. A common argument used in Austrailia (against Asians and Aboriginies), Canada (against Indians), and the United States (usually Black, Cuban, and Hispanic) against minorities. Up to this point we were walking about religous tolerance.

You also generalize. Not all of the half dozen million muslims commit crimes. In fact, most of them do not. You categorize them all together thus providing a basis not only for your dislike for them but the laws that directly target them.

You also make it sound as if it is the end of the world. We are forced to do this to survive. It is not the end of the world and France has MUCH bigger problems to worry about.

You pretty much admitted that you are Nationalistic Racist...which is idiocy, irrational, and reactionary.

Now, I'll give you a chance to withdrawl your comment.

[Durandal]

i totally agree with Fantassin, but it's normal i have not the chance to live in Kentucky.

I HAVE been to France though.

[morlick]

i totally agree with Fantassin, but it's normal i have not the chance to live in Kentucky.

I HAVE been to France though.

how many time?

[fantassin]

That's so generous...you actually give me a chance? so good of you...and not patronizing at all...and so american considering the rest of the world like the third world

If I write arabs it's because that's where most of France's moslems are arabs from algeria, tunisia and morroco. Some are also from black africa like senegal but they very very rarely cause problems.

Police figures show in clear details that they are over represented in criminal statistics, just under the gipsys to be precise.

I wont bother answering the rest since there is a difference between having been somewhere and having lived for 40 odd years in the same place.

[Durandal]

how many time?

Three. Enough time that between friends that live there and being well read that I have more than the typical American understanding of your nation.

[Durandal]

That's so generous...you actually give me a chance? so good of you...and not patronizing at all...and so american considering the rest of the world like the third world

Ahhh and now we sart the whole "American" part of the argument. I was wondering when that was coming. Just out of curiosity, where did I claim France was part of the Third World?


If I write arabs it's because that's where most of France's moslems are arabs from algeria, tunisia and morroco. Some are also from black africa like senegal but they very very rarely cause problems.

We were talking about muslims. Not Arabs. You are the one that is generalizing. If a small number of people named fantassin commit crimes do we punish all the people named fantassin? The last time I checked there were Arabs in France that were not Muslim. I even met a couple both here at college, years ago and in France...


I wont bother answering the rest since there is a difference between having been somewhere and having lived for 40 odd years in the same place.

Take the easy way out mate! Sure there is a difference between living there and visiting. Better than having opinion with absolutely no experience at all. Then again, one might argue that having lived there for 40 years has made you conservative and biased...change is bad. One might also argue that if you are employed by your government (a 1 in 9 chance), you may be pissed off that you have to retire two years later (yikes, not 57!!) and lost a vacation (no more six weeks of vacation!). Sounds like a pretty good reason to blame people you think are draining the government of the money to keep up the OTHER form of welfare in the nation...I mean, I am sure you bounce some sort of derogatory term when discussing the Muslims....or is it Arabs? Which group? Or is it both? Do you dislike Gypsies just as much? What about Jews...so long as they know their place? Put them all in camps or kick them out you say?

OR you can keep discussing and prove that I am wrong.

[StarvingStudent47]

I still don't see what a 12-year-old girl covering her hair with a scarf has to do with violent religious extremism. Moderate peaceful Muslims wear headscarves too, last time I checked. We're not talking about burqas here, just chadors.

In the USA, on Ash Wednesday (or was it Palm Sunday? I don't know), all the Catholics go around with a little cross marked in ash on their foreheads. This includes going to school. I had classes with people who did this. Was it disrupting? NO. Did I think they were members of the IRA because they had a symbol of their faith? NO.

I wouldn't stop a Catholic from coming to class with an ash cross on their forehead. I wouldn't stop an Orthodox Jew from coming to class with a yarmulke (skullcap) on. And I wouldn't stop a little Muslim girl from coming to class with her hair covered.

What do all of these have in common? They don't affect ME in any way. It's just somebody dressing slightly differently. Who f*cking cares? It doesn't affect you unless you make it affect you.

[StarvingStudent47]

Plus, France has kept a firm dividing line between religions and state for a century now; you never ever hear "God bless France" or anything like that in public speeches. In front of the law, religion is a private matter, period.

"A century now"? Half a century ago, religion was a VERY public matter in France, if you happened to be a member of a certain minority religion.

[Kriz]

They should pass a law like this in belgian to, damn muslims think they can come to our country and impose their culture on us. F*ck off, we were never allowed to wear caps and hats, they shouldn't be allowed to wear them stupid things too.

[California Joe]

A lot of school districts in this country are adopting school uniforms. This works on a lot of levels. Lower income family kids look like anyone else. No caste system develops based on the latest Air Jordans, kids aren't being sent home for wearing Finnish Death Metal T- shirts, little wannabe Fitty Cent's aren't showing their ass cracks cause their pants are falling off, no Lil Kims flashing skin etc. School is about learning not fashion. Religion can be fashion. The French dig fashion. Chirac is a goofy bastard though.

[Durandal]

"A century now"? Half a century ago, religion was a VERY public matter in France, if you happened to be a member of a certain minority religion.

Technicaly, in 1903, the French adopted a purely secular government. Just a little over a century ago. Of course, France was pretty much all Roman Catholoic, but it is estimated that now, only 10% of the nation are practicing Roman Catholics.

I found some comparisons on line about anti-cultism in France (any religion being a cult) and Italy, who is predominately Roman Catholic. Italy has incredibly high tolerances when it comes to other religions.

Turkey and France are very similar in both the control and disdain for personal faiths.

[StarvingStudent47]

I'm not sure you caught my reference (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/jewish_deportation_01.shtml), Durandal.

And I'm not concerned with whether a government is officially secular. I'm concerned about the de facto situation.

[duck]

Durandal: Please read this Time Magazine article on Muslim ghettos in France. I'm not copy-pasting it since some of the content is really shocking.

http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/1202/crime/bellil.htm

[Durandal]

I'm not sure you caught my reference (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/jewish_deportation_01.shtml), Durandal.

And I'm not concerned with whether a government is officially secular. I'm concerned about the de facto situation.

No no, I understood the post, was simply posting a comment. One could argue that France was being REALLY secular with anti-semitic laws... :(

[Durandal]

Durandal: Please read this Time Magazine article on Muslim ghettos in France. I'm not copy-pasting it since some of the content is really shocking.

http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/1202/crime/bellil.htm

Just out of curiosity, what does this have to do with religious tolerances and whether a woman can wear a headscarf?

[Uncle Chô]

France has grappled with the scarf issue for nearly 15 years. It began in 1989 when two 14-year-old school girls refused to remove their head-coverings. :bash: Typicall French attitude. Stand by. Endless talks. Is there a problem ? We have to bury it asap. Do not open the Pandora box.. Our politics do not have the guts to take the right decision at the right moment. When the whole building is burning into flames, it is too late. :|


The regional paper "Paris-Normandie" argues that the entire debate on religious freedoms in France is irrelevant.

"Saddam Hussein has been captured, the (European) Union has broken down, the world economy is slow to recover, unemployment is taking root, but France chooses to debate secularism!"

It goes on to lament "the national genius that makes us capable of tearing one another apart over a social issue of interest to no-one but ourselves".

The debate over headscarf is merely a symptom of deeper problems facing France, the paper believes.

"It is a question of tackling the problems of integration, discrimination, gender equality and social and economic inequality. And it is not with a new law that such problems can be solved."



That is exactly my position.

[duck]

Durandal, ever heard of Mexifornia? Now why should anyone be worried about that? Well, what about 30 million American Muslims starting a parallel society where the Quran sets the standards and women's rights are defined by gangs and religious leaders?

[California Joe]

What? And outlaw Playboy and Ozzy albums? It already happened here. It's called Walmart.

[TriggerPuller]

Thats the smarteset thing Ive ever heard from that ****bird(Chirac). The only good Muslim is a dead Muslim. Round em all up and stick em in work camps or ship everyone of their nasty bodies back to the ****hole they came from! Anybody want to know how I really feel? LOL

TP

[StarvingStudent47]

Thats the smarteset thing Ive ever heard from that ****bird(Chirac). The only good Muslim is a dead Muslim. Round em all up and stick em in work camps or ship everyone of their nasty bodies back to the ****hole they came from! Anybody want to know how I really feel?

Actually, no.

[Durandal]

Durandal, ever heard of Mexifornia? Now why should anyone be worried about that? Well, what about 30 million American Muslims starting a parallel society where the Quran sets the standards and women's rights are defined by gangs and religious leaders?

So wait, let me get this straight. You think A) Headscarves and relgious faith is the problem and B) Banning items of personal faith from public buildings helps solve this?

You HAVE to be kidding me.

The article describes lawlessness in France get some cops down there and arrest the people that are breaking laws. Why alienate those that are NOT breaking the law?

[TriggerPuller]

Thats the smarteset thing Ive ever heard from that ****bird(Chirac). The only good Muslim is a dead Muslim. Round em all up and stick em in work camps or ship everyone of their nasty bodies back to the ****hole they came from! Anybody want to know how I really feel?

Actually, no. It was rhetorical,considering how I had just mentioned how I really felt dumbass!!

TP

[raid]

Just out of curiosity, what does this have to do with religious tolerances and whether a woman can wear a headscarf?

It has everything to do with typical radical islam way of controling women... The frightning thing is that this kind of habit (monitoring of women who try to live an occidental type of life) is spreading over a population larger than radical islamists or even muslim people.
You often hear girls saying that wearing a scarf is a way not to get troubles with neighbourhood boys... You know what I call that, I call that terror...
Last year, a 17 years old girl got burned to death because she was seeing someone without the "authorization" from the boys of her housing project... Who said talibans?

[duck]

There are arab police officers in the ghettos, as far as I know. But they are viewed as traitors by most of the population and live under constant death treaths. Using ethnically european police routinely draws violent demonstrations.

[Durandal]

It has everything to do with typical radical islam way of controling women...

So wait, are you telling me that Sikhs cannot wear turbans either? The men? Because it controls Muslim women? Are you also telling me that there are not Muslim women who feel that they are obligated to wear it because of their faith?

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Have the cops go in and police the goddamn streets.

That is, if they are not striking because they only have to work a 30 hour work week.

For f*cks sake.

See the forest dude, not the tree...

[Durandal]

There are arab police officers in the ghettos, as far as I know. But they are viewed as traitors by most of the population and live under constant death treaths. Using ethnically european police routinely draws violent demonstrations.

Then France is lost...screw it...ok next topic.

You know what, pissing off peaceful Muslims by denying them a right to practice their own religion is not going to make it any better, quite the opposite. Prohibiting religious icons is not going to solve lawlessness in a ghetto.

The ignorance..

[raid]

Durandal, I got to say you have a bad habit in reading too much in my statements...
I don't have too much of a problem with a grown up woman wearing a scarf in the street because of her own assumed religious beliefs (be them christian or muslim or any other religion that refers to scarf). Although the scarf is another debate.

I do have a problem with a 15 years old girl saying that she wears veils because it's the only way she doesn't get troubles with her families or neighbourhood.
I have a problem with kids wearing a scarf at school when the rest of the population, be them christian or jewish or anything you want, play by the rules and keep their religious opinion & appearance discreet...

And please stop saying this will deny the right to practice their religion. This law is only refering to school and public service personnel. School is not the place where you practice religion, period. If the kids want to go to church, mosquee, temple, synagog, more power to them..

[mocking_loudly_died]

Tripperpuller the voice of mediocrity.

"I like da big burgers when I go bomb dos foreign peoples!"

[TriggerPuller]

Tripperpuller the voice of mediocrity.

"I like da big burgers when I go bomb dos foreign peoples!" You know what I dont have to like these people. They stormed the American embassy in 79. killed my brothers in 83. Fought them on Special Operations during the Iran Iraq war. went back again for Storm/Shield. they ambushed my Ranger brothers in 93. Attacked the WTC TWICE. How about the USS COLE. Ive lost countless #'s of friends and have many there now. So **** everyone of them hard in the ass with a Camels ****!!!! I **** on their graves! Live my life and you wouldnt be so ****ing sympathetic you little worm!!

TP

[mocking_loudly_died]

Wow, there are some fantastic non-fanatical reasons to hate an entire lot of people that dare enter a religion you so despise.

You sir are a genius!

Oh the Irony, the All-American freedom loving heroic warrior being just as loony as the extremists he so detests.

[TriggerPuller]

Wow, there are some fantastic non-fanatical reasons to hate an entire lot of people that dare enter a religion you so despise.

You sir are a genius!

Oh the Irony, the All-American freedom loving heroic warrior being just as loony as the extremists he so detests. Been in combat there smart ass,continually seeing the same people year after year. Your lucky there are people like me to take care of the **** you havent got ther balls to do.Sorry Iam not as sympathetic as you when youve got blood on your hands from these people and it's not yours but your buds who youve trained and sweated with for years.Ive earned the right to not like them,but I dont go out and blow up their families or kill them because I dont like them. Thats the difference between them and me!! And when it comes to my Country YES Iam fanatical. Oh and by the way Iam a genius!

TP

[mocking_loudly_died]

You are the wind beneath my wings.

[TriggerPuller]

You are the wind beneath my wings.And you are the **** stain in my skivvies!!!

TP

[cut]

You are the wind beneath my wings.

don't you mean trapped wind?

[mocking_loudly_died]

You are the wind beneath my wings.And you are the **** stain in my skivvies!!!

TP

Respect for you is most likely to be found at the bottom of my toilet.

Feel free to eat it.

Now shut up you dumb yank.

[Durandal]

Durandal, I got to say you have a bad habit in reading too much in my statements...

Not really. We see it yet AGAIN in your statements below.


I don't have too much of a problem with a grown up woman wearing a scarf in the street because of her own assumed religious beliefs (be them christian or muslim or any other religion that refers to scarf). Although the scarf is another debate.

Who care what the f*ck you have a problem with. It is not YOUR life, it is theirs. If they wear their religion so be it. You are the one forcing a beleif system on someone, not them. If they want to say a prayer at lunch in school are you going to stop them? We are talking about faith here, not some fraternity. We are talking about a core sstem of beleifs that are not only paramount to their very existence but provide them comfort.

What do you do? Sh*t on it.

Do I agree with their beleifs. Nope. I do tolerate them and if it makes them a better person eve so much the better.

I do have a problem with a 15 years old girl saying that she wears veils because it's the only way she doesn't get troubles with her families or neighbourhood.


I have a problem with kids wearing a scarf at school when the rest of the population, be them christian or jewish or anything you want, play by the rules and keep their religious opinion & appearance discreet...

And please stop saying this will deny the right to practice their religion. This law is only refering to school and public service personnel. School is not the place where you practice religion, period. If the kids want to go to church, mosquee, temple, synagog, more power to them..

You do not leave faith at the door man. You do not hide it because you others think you should. ANY person should be happy with the beleif they have and not worry what some one else might think. No one is indoctrinating children to believe in a religion they do not want to believe in. They are celebrating it themselves. A church, mosquee, temple, or synagog is a place of worhsip and a social environment for those of the same beliefs.

Imagine this world if we hide ourselves from others and celebrate who we are alone in private.

Next you are going to tell me it is ok to be gay, just not in public. Or it is ok to be a woman but her palce is at home not in the work force...or blacks are only suited for s certain job type....so long as they know their place.

Do you actually believe the crap your shoveling?

Four legs gooooood! Two legs baaaaaaad!

[Durandal]

Oh and by the way Iam a genius!

Then type like one Mr. Short Bus.

[raid]

You do not leave faith at the door man

That's where we do not agree. I'm convinced faith is something from the inner part of someone. If they cannot leave an exterior sign out of secular ground for a few hours, believing they will be doomed or whatever, then it is plain wrong... Can a christian only believe when he wears a large crucifix? Can a jewish only believe when he wears a kippa?


Next you are going to tell me it is ok to be gay, just not in public. Or it is ok to be a woman but her palce is at home not in the work force...or blacks are only suited for s certain job type....so long as they know their place.
WTF does that have to do? Did I mentionned somewhere something about ****** preferences or origins?
Since you seem to like that kind of argument, let me return the compliment:
You're basically saying "If they wear their religion so be it". Does that includes Talibans?
You're saying "wearing a headscarves is not violating ANYONES freeedom". Does that mean you also support burqa?

You see, things are not the same here and in the US. It is easy to bragg about how islam should be protected when you get what, 0.5% of the US population as muslims.
The day you'll have half a bus filled with veils, when you hear everyday how laws should be changed in favor of islam, or you'll have "in allah we trust" on one side of your bank notes because it violates their beliefs to see god written everywhere... that day you won't find my echo to your thoughts.

[stephane from Paris]

The interresting thing is to heard north africa's arabs says that they see more girls with headscarf in France that in their origin's country!
Ton's of muslims girls ask for the law because they are opressed by their brothers, their family, the friends....
They says that if they want to be dress like all french girls they now become a bitch!!
last summer (very hot) i saw several time some couple, the men were in Tshirt but the women where in dark Vader dress (impossible to see skin).

Young muslims are far more religious than their father and middle east wars give for result an incredible rise of Muslim nationalism and Islamist integrism. Thanks mister Bush!
The muslims elected Isalamists radicals and not moderates for speaking in their name.
There's 5 millions of muslims here (3 in england, Germany and USA and most of US ones are blacks so american's origin), the choise: is do we want a future Yougoslavian situation , or do you must try to integrate them before it will be too late?
btw we could tell to the future imigrant that they will be wellcome in Kentucky.

[wulfstan]

This is about the only thing i give the French respect for in recent months, at least they have the bollocks to do it, this would never happen in the UK as everyone here is scared of upsetting someone's feelings. Better be careful about this as i will be in france end of next week...

[stephane from Paris]

As some US "friends" said we're racists, fascists I could add that in USA:
-It's not a line that is, in the south states, between whites and blacks but a wall!
-same thing between catholics and WASP americans!
-It's in your country that you can buy nazi stuff, where nazis can wear their uniform and says their hate! That situation is impossible here or in Germany!
-it's in your country where a group want to promote English because they're affraid that spanish will be the official language one day!
-It's in your country where there's a wall that separate you from the mexicans!
You understand what i means? No country is perfect, and certainly not more your's!

btw we are in the situation of indians native when they saw more and more imigrants who don't respects their culture!
We don't want to be like serbs who loose the land of their fathers (kosovo), we axcept imigrants including muslims, but we need to protect our way of life.

[stephane from Paris]

just to show that we'aren't the only bad guys in Europe:
http://www.hsite.co.uk/edy/docs/asylum.swf

And Durandal you spoke about Italia who have better laws! First They just see muslims imigrants come since a few years, they are less than 1% perhaps under and they're for most from Albania where people are muslims but don't practise very much!
Berlusconi who said several months ago that western culture is superior to islamics cultures, have 2 ultra right wing parties in his government (Legia Lombardia and the New Facist party of the little daughter of Mussolini).

[Durandal]

That's where we do not agree. I'm convinced faith is something from the inner part of someone.

Hehehehe rock on man. You just defined faith for over 6 BILLION people.


Does that mean you also support burqa?

Sure. so long as it is done voluntarily. There are plenty of women that do. I disagreed with the Taliban because the forced ALL women to do it. I'll say it a little slaower just in case ya missed it. FORCED.

Fundementally, France, by FORCING someone to HIDE their faith in public is doing very much the same the Taliban did by forcing women to wear the burqa. They may punish a person differently by the concpet still applies.


You see, things are not the same here and in the US. It is easy to bragg about how islam should be protected when you get what, 0.5% of the US population as muslims.

The day you'll have half a bus filled with veils, when you hear everyday how laws should be changed in favor of islam, or you'll have "in allah we trust" on one side of your bank notes because it violates their beliefs to see god written everywhere... that day you won't find my echo to your thoughts.

Hey we have Mexicans. More of them than the ENTIRE population of France. We deal. We do make laws that target Mexicans. Though if you are California, you make laws that help the illegal ones...go figure. Then again, I have never been a big fan of California...nice place to visit though.

France's problems are happening because France is filled with a bunch of racists. The Muslims, MUCH like the Mexicans in the United States emmigrated to France to live a better life. France did nothing to get ready for the changes...even though they have been staring at the problem for the last 15 or 20 years.


Again...

You have immigrants that are alien to you and do not follow your laws. They are poor live at poverty levels and live in a copncentrated area. They do not respect law officers of their own ethnic origin and they riot whne you send White European cops in...

Your answer is to get rid of head scarves? *snort*

[Miles Teg]

You answer is to get rid of head scarves? *snort*
We are considered like racist when we show a law for scarve, what will you think about law of intervention in """no law ghettos"""?

[Durandal]

As some US "friends" said we're racists, fascists I could add that in USA:
-It's not a line that is, in the south states, between whites and blacks but a wall!

I am not too sure if that is a problem any more. Onc could argue that the burroughs in our major citites have more problems in that regard. Definately not wear I live. I live next door to black and probably half my friends are black...then again, I do not live in a major city, the regional population os only 1.5 million...


-same thing between catholics and WASP americans!

Sure, but we do not make laws that prevetn Catholics from doing what the want to do. Heck, they have their own schools, maybe even more that the Baptists. That has also changed fairly quickly over the last 30 years as well.


-It's in your country that you can buy nazi stuff, where nazis can wear their uniform and says their hate! That situation is impossible here or in Germany!

It is called freedom. Hating someone is not illegal. There are times I would love to ignore groups like these and simply erase them, but then, I would be no better. Most Americans know that the Neo-Nazis and the KKK are fringe elements that have little or know power. The FBI keeps tabs on them as well. We used to have a bunch of Militia's too but in a time of fear a bunch of laws were passed (or broken) following the Oklahoma bombing and they were quite illegally shut down or infiltrated...that was Clinton. It is called Freedom though. You do not go around arresting people just becasue the disagree with you or hate a certain ethnic group. The funny thing is that one of your posts sounded straight up like a interview with a Klan member. "We need to preserve our culture"

Americans collect all sorts of stuff some of the collect German World War 2 stuff. That does not make them Nazis. The Japanese collect even more of the crap. Unless it is a gun, I could give to craps about the stuff. But other do like collecting it...so let them. Freedom.



-it's in your country where a group want to promote English because they're affraid that spanish will be the official language one day!

This is common sense thing. First it is an issue because the United States has never officilay made English the native language of America. Second, if I went to German I expect my ass to know German. THose are my views on it. Know one is preventing them from speaking Spanish though. That is a major difference.


-It's in your country where there's a wall that separate you from the mexicans!

Technically we ave no wall. Just barren scrub and patrols. There is a legal way to enter the nation and an illegal way. If you do it the legal way things are less likely to become like France.

[/quote]You understand what i means? No country is perfect, and certainly not more your's![/quote]

I never claimed that America was, but we were talking about France in this thread, not America. If you want to bitch about America's inequality and lack of freedoms, do it in another thread. :)

[stephane from Paris]

Wrong Durandal, they can wears as they want in the streets BUT no in classroom, not if they are in state companies, that's not the same!
How do you feel if you go to your post office and the postmens are in nazi dress? How do you feel if every time they see you they says: "hey you're a leftish, you don't like your country, you should thinks like me"

Here is the problem!
Ton's of imigrants come and knows that there isn't jobs, but if one of their child born here, his familly can stay and receive all the socials that is superior at their origin situation! Muslims aren't poor like you says, far lesser than 30millions of americans (UN sources sorry).
I lived 20years in a the same place (=south central without guns) of them so i thinks i knows far better than you the situation!
The biggest problem is tons of new immigrants come without works, and a part of the ones who were born here don't want to work as they have great socials here!
If you have a pizza for 4 persons, you should eat at 6 but if 2 guys come every hours it's a problem!
btw you didn't reply to my post!

[Durandal]

just to show that we'aren't the only bad guys in Europe:
http://www.hsite.co.uk/edy/docs/asylum.swf

And Durandal you spoke about Italia who have better laws! First They just see muslims imigrants come since a few years, they are less than 1% perhaps under and they're for most from Albania where people are muslims but don't practise very much!
Berlusconi who said several months ago that western culture is superior to islamics cultures, have 2 ultra right wing parties in his government (Legia Lombardia and the New Facist party of the little daughter of Mussolini).


Funny is it not. The allow facists and **** stars and Catholics to run for office but do not seem to have the problems Germany and France do.

Weird.

[stephane from Paris]

sorry you put it when i did mine!

[Durandal]

Here is the problem!

No, here is your problem. You have immigration laws that can be abused. You also need to ditch the nanny state scoial programs. Hell, if I lived in the ass end of the world and I had a chance of using someone's social welfare system to get my ass out of hell...I know I would do it.

Heheh that is funny...

You have been sucking from the "State Tit" so long you cannot even comprehend that it is actually part of the problem.

[stephane from Paris]

I understand people who come here and don't blame them for that!
I'm proud to live in a country where poor people have socials, and could go to school without play basket or football.

The problem is that we are too much on the pizza, and if some don't respect the rules it will be dangerous!

As i had a black girl friend and have 2 of my best friend who have metis children, i'm not in the same feeling of KKK!!
Love its own culture and country isn't fascist! Don't want do see it disapears isn't facist. You use same arguments than leftish and grennish here!

[StarvingStudent47]

just to show that we'aren't the only bad guys in Europe:
http://www.hsite.co.uk/edy/docs/asylum.swf

And Durandal you spoke about Italia who have better laws! First They just see muslims imigrants come since a few years, they are less than 1% perhaps under and they're for most from Albania where people are muslims but don't practise very much!
Berlusconi who said several months ago that western culture is superior to islamics cultures, have 2 ultra right wing parties in his government (Legia Lombardia and the New Facist party of the little daughter of Mussolini).

I still don't see how making 14-year-old girls bare their head fixes any of this. And I fail to see how saying "there are also racists in the UK" makes this official French government policy any less nauseating.

Hey, I know a flashwave movie with that same music, but without the racist overtones. It has nothing to do with this thread, but it's funny: http://www2.b3ta.com/motorbikes/

[Durandal]

I'm proud to live in a country where poor people have socials, and could go to school without play basket or football.

Hey, college is not a right. I'll agree that a community has a responsibility to educate the young through grade and high school. I do not believe that a nation is resonsible for a citizens comfort though. I believe a nation/local government IS responsible to gaurantee you live in peace and a re able to PURSUE happiness...working roads and an infrastructure, basic education, and law enforcement.


The problem is that we are too much on the pizza, and if some don't respect the rules it will be dangerous!

Do not make rules that can be taken advantage of. Loopholes are taken advantage by the poor and the rich and the middle class gets screwed. If the system is broken do not blame the people that take advantage of it...

Fix it.


Love its own culture and country isn't fascist! Don't want do see it disapears isn't facist. You use same arguments than leftish and grennish here!

Love for culture and country if taken too far can lead to facism and extreme nationalism. It has happened throughout Europe. People tend to ignore the past and repeat mistakes. So tread carefully. I believe in freedom and liberty and what I see happening in France is not freedom and liberty it is anarachy, nationalism, and a little bit of totalitarianism....in the name of secularism and maintaining your culture.

Oh, and I am the furthest thing from being leftish and gre(e)nish. Those folks would consider me a right wing wacko in comparison...though I consider myself a libertarian.

I am not there, I am not French, I have been to that country a number of times and have friends there...a few believe the way you do, while most of them are open minded enough to see the bag of dangers Shirac is opening. Maybe sitting onthe outside I am not so close to the subject and can see the forest for the trees...

Maybe some of you should try to do the same.

[Durandal]

I quote from issue number 10 (The Union as a Safeguard Against Domestic Faction and Insurrection) of the Federalist papers. The author is James Madison, one of the key constructors of the Constitution of the United States of America.

The was written back in 1787.


By a faction, I understand a number of citizens, whether amounting to a majority or a minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adversed to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community.

There are two methods of curing the mischiefs of faction: the one, by removing its causes; the other, by controlling its effects.

There are again two methods of removing the causes of faction: the one, by destroying the liberty which is essential to its existence; the other, by giving to every citizen the same opinions, the same passions, and the same interests.

It could never be more truly said than of the first remedy, that it was worse than the disease. Liberty is to faction what air is to fire, an aliment without which it instantly expires. But it could not be less folly to abolish liberty, which is essential to political life, because it nourishes faction, than it would be to wish the annihilation of air, which is essential to animal life, because it imparts to fire its destructive agency.

And I think you guys need to read this line and take a break and think REALLY hard about it.


The inference to which we are brought is, that the CAUSES of faction cannot be removed, and that relief is only to be sought in the means of controlling its EFFECTS.

Madison was both elegant and powerful and had a grasp for political realities that few politicians these days have. He was not so much a politician as he was a STATESMAN.

The entire article he wrote can be found here: http://memory.loc.gov/const/fed/fed_10.html

[California Joe]

*Thinking REALLY hard*

[Durandal]

*Thinking REALLY hard*

:D

[California Joe]

*Thinking REALLY hard*

:D

I vote in the Madison district. He was born down the road a piece from here. ;)

[Beowulf]

whoa whoa whoa!!! I can't believe i missed this thread.....you can't quote the federalist papers on an internet message board......are you crazy???!!
Just go back to flaming each other mindlessly so that I can continue my "re-education campaign" on you bunch of apes (except for the ladies of course :-))

Marx and Engels smoked pole, vote Beowulf in 2016

[California Joe]

Maybe you should be paying more attention to all the Grendel's running loose in this place Hero. ;)

[Beowulf]

Maybe you should be paying more attention to all the Grendel's running loose in this place Hero. ;)
It's "Epic Hero", I didn't spend 1000 years acquiring all this Fame, Glory, Power, and Wealth just to be called hero, thank you very much.

(finishes huge flagon o' mead and prepares to rip off some arms...)

[California Joe]

Maybe you should be paying more attention to all the Grendel's running loose in this place Hero. ;)
It's "Epic Hero", I didn't spend 1000 years acquiring all this Fame, Glory, Power, and Wealth the just be called hero, thank you very much.

(finishes huge flagon o' mead and prepares to rip off some arms...)



Sorry about that Epic Hero pal. When you're through quaffing the mead, Cuchulain is outside and say's you're a huge pussy.

[Beowulf]

okay gotta even things out a little..... http://www.lowbrow.com/index.html

[California Joe]

Thanks. Needed that.

[Durandal]

*snort* That was great... :D

[Durandal]

whoa whoa whoa!!! I can't believe i missed this thread.....you can't quote the federalist papers on an internet message board......are you crazy???!!

I could not help myself...

Yes, sometimes I lack sanity, but only in Fridays...

Then again, I am rarely sober on Fridays, so...

;)

[farmgirl]

Maybe you should be paying more attention to all the Grendel's running loose in this place Hero. ;)
It's "Epic Hero", I didn't spend 1000 years acquiring all this Fame, Glory, Power, and Wealth just to be called hero, thank you very much.

(finishes huge flagon o' mead and prepares to rip off some arms...)

*turns on the Partridge Family*

"I think I love you...." ;)

[oldsoak]

I have a certain sympathy for the french here. They have an identity which rightly or wrongly they feel is under threat. The immigrant population does not always espouse french culture and values simply because it brings its own and supplants what is already there. In effect, they do not become french. Their culture is sufficiently different from that of the native french that the change is noticeable. That allied with the fact that the immigrants look diffrent and have a different religion only emphasizes the difference. Knowing human nature for what it is, one can already see problems. If Chirac does not stand fast on this, then the likes of Le Pen will capitalise on it. Do we want to hand a victory to the far right ? There might be a lot of french who dont think like Stephane, but there are a lot that do and then theres the far right, and they can win elections. Like it or not, the French have to say that the same rule applies to all and show it to be so. :(

[stephane from Paris]

Just to add that in France the anti racism group SOS Racisme is OK for this law like all women associations!
The groups who aren't agree are Ultra Right and religious ones.

The problem here is that since 30years if you says i'm proud to be European or french or just l like my country and my culture you're suspect to be ultra right partisan! Here the National front is very strong specialy in zones where lives importants percents of muslims, and the most incredible is that some jews voted for ultra right!

I'm nationalist in the french way of thinking but i have a socialist feeling for the society! I thinks that the state must protect and help all his people and specially the poor!
Some of my friends are communists, some socialists (like my father), some are for right center (my mother) and some votes for ultra right as they wants that's changes!
If we don't do it now, i the future we'll have a ultra right leader or will have a Yougoslavian situation!
And it takes the same way in most of European's countries: switzeland (30% for ultra right, Austria remember Haïder, Spain who had riots between maroccans and spanish in the south, Italia who discovers muslim immigration and has now 2 neofacists party in government, England who had riots against Pakis in the north, Belgium where the Vlams Block is strong, Holland).
We are in the same position than Europe in 1938 who didn't stop Hitler when it was time to do!
Do it now or pay it.
btw: i play football (sorry soccer) with muslims and all guys who have my age (37) are agree with the law!
The girls who are dress with head scarf are not too numerous, but since we didn't says stop in time they are more and more now! In this situation , the rise of muslim nationalism is given by the middle east situation!
Chirac was right, OIF will give more and more sympathy to integrism, you don't want to understand that but this war will rise terrorism!!!!

[stephane from Paris]

And..... in France 50% of imigrant's children are maried to a french when they are only 5% in Germany and England!
When these 2 countries will have 8% of muslims we'll have another talk!

[stephane from Paris]

today's washington post:

French Muslims Offer Little Opposition to Head Scarf Ban

By Keith B. Richburg
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, December 20, 2003; Page A14


PARIS, Dec. 19 -- At a Tunisian bakery in a heavily Muslim neighborhood on the north side of Paris, a middle-aged woman with her head covered in an immaculate white head scarf shrugged off the news that President Jacques Chirac wants a new law banning Muslim head scarves from public schools. "It's normal," she said. "School should be a place of equality."



The reaction was the same from the Algerian vendor at the local kebab shop. "Everything has its place," he said. "Religion is private and should stay at home."

Some local Muslims, already feeling singled out in France, were reluctant to speak openly about the proposed law, and most did not want to be named. "It's only for high schools -- it doesn't apply to universities," said a young woman wearing a veil and holding a briefcase, waiting for her train after attending classes at a Paris university.

But outside Paris's main mosque, in a tranquil neighborhood of the Latin Quarter, unsigned leaflets appeared during Friday services urging Muslims to turn out on Sunday to protest the proposed law. "Such a law would further stigmatize the Muslim community, which has been the object of unrelenting political-media harassment," the leaflet read. "There shouldn't be any second-class citizenship."

Since Chirac made his announcement in a nationally televised speech Wednesday, the reaction from the political class has been largely favorable, with the main parties -- Chirac's ruling coalition and the opposition Socialists -- all voicing their support. Party leaders said the law could be passed by February. Only the Greens, Communists and members of other small parties opposed the new law on civil liberties grounds. The anti-immigrant National Front party also expressed opposition because the proposed ban includes Christian symbols.

The new law would ban from public schools not only Muslim head scarves, but also religious symbols that are considered ostentatious, such as Jewish yarmulkes, or skullcaps, and large Christian crosses. Religious signs considered discreet, such as small crosses, Korans and Stars of David, would be allowed, although it would be up to Parliament to draft the rules for categorizing the signs and symbols.

Chirac also called on his social affairs minister to begin consulting businesses about whether to introduce a law that would also allow workplaces to ban head scarves and other overt religious symbols. That would require changing the current work code's anti-discrimination provision, which now forbids firing or disciplining employees for religious reasons.

In the United States and elsewhere, a ban on religious symbols might be viewed as an excessive restriction on individual liberties. But in France, where concern over individual rights and freedoms is often trumped by a tradition that stresses equality and a strong, centralized state, many appear ready to accept the proposed law.

Some analysts seemed surprised by the hostile foreign reaction to it, compared with the muted response here in France, saying the Anglo-Saxon view is not necessarily applicable here.

"In France, the citizens of the republic do not belong to communities, they belong to the republic," said Dominique Moisi, a political analyst and commentator. In France, unlike in the United States, he said, "the state created the nation," and communities -- different regions, different ethnic groups, the Catholic Church -- were all seen as obstacles to that centuries-long process of centralizing state power.

Asked why Jewish organizations or Catholics were not protesting a ban that affects them as well, Moisi replied, "It is really a law against Muslim fundamentalists. But in order to hide that, you had to apply the law to Jews who wear [yarmulkes] and Christians who wear large crosses. The Jews are very prudent. They realize it is a law to protect them from the Muslims."

Moisi said he was "completely torn" by the law and "disturbed" that it was needed. But he also praised Chirac for what he said was an "excellent" speech that mentioned not only the need to defend secularism, but also to improve the integration of the country's newest arrivals.

Since the law would apply only to public schools, some predicted a surge in private Islamic schools. France's first Islamic high school opened this year in Lille.

The 3,000 Sikhs living in France will also be affected by the new rule, since Sikh boys from the age of 8 do not cut their hair, and their distinctive turbans are a sign of purity. In one school in the Seine-Saint-Denis district north of Paris, where many Sikhs live, the neighborhood school has adopted its own solution, allowing boys to keep their long hair in a net, which is considered more discreet than a turban.

The reaction outside France has been more critical. In Qatar, Yusuf Qaradawi, an influential Egyptian-born cleric, urged Muslims to oppose the proposed law. In comments broadcast over the international satellite television network al-Jazeera, he said banning head scarves might "provoke the hatred and enmity of Muslims."

But the view from abroad was also mixed. In Egypt, Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, grand sheik of al-Azhar University, one of Sunni Islam's most important centers of learning, said any country had the right to pass laws it deemed necessary.

Special correspondent Pan Yuk contributed to this report.

[Pille1234]

today's washington post:

The reaction outside France has been more critical. In Qatar, Yusuf Qaradawi, an influential Egyptian-born cleric, urged Muslims to oppose the proposed law. In comments broadcast over the international satellite television network al-Jazeera, he said banning head scarves might "provoke the hatred and enmity of Muslims."


This is an interesting paragraph. It is known, that Saudi Arab clerics sponsor mosques in Europe, which preach the need of head scarves and a fundamental interpretation in general. 'Fundamental' doesn't necessarily mean violent, btw.
I wish we had such brave political leaders over here, too. :(

[Durandal]

Stephane, no on is telling you no to be proud of your nation or your culture. Quite the contrary.

The danger is when you use that as an excuse to prevent other people from having their own culture, faith, or lifestyle.

That is the difference.

France is changing, just like my nation is changing. The places we live are not "Brigadoons"...that sit idle and unmolested for centuries...change happens, like it or not.

[Durandal]

today's washington post:

Since the law would apply only to public schools, some predicted a surge in private Islamic schools. France's first Islamic high school opened this year in Lille.


Heheh. Anyone see the problem here?

Stepane go back and read my Madison/Federalist Papers post...

This article is already showing the backlash from the prohibition.