(Barca) Is all barbed wire the same?

[Moledet]

Teachers’ training manual in Barcelona compares Holocaust to Israel’s security barrier in West Bank; Israel demands manual be removed from shelves
By Diana Bahur-Nir



JERUSALEM - Officials expressed outrage over the weekend that the City of Barcelona would publish a teachers’ training manual comparing “the wall of shame Israel is building in Palestine” to concentration camps.


The manual was published last week and serves as a guide for high school teachers talking about the Holocaust. The specific comparison is found in the chapter dealing the imprisonment of Spanish Republicans.


“The concentration camps can be compared to two other historical events: The wall of shame Israel is building in Palestine and the (American) detention camp in Guantanamo,” the manual goes.


According to Israeli diplomatic officials in Spain, the murder of six million Jews is only mentioned in passing.



Israeli reaction


Ambassador Victor Harel wrote a scathing letter to Barcelona Mayor Joan Clos demanding that these distortions be cleaned up and that current copies of the manual be removed from the shelves.


“We’re talking about statements that border on the anti-Semitic and that completely distort the very term ‘training manual’,” Israeli embassy spokesman Jackie Eldan said.


In the coming days, the president of Catalonia, the region of Spain whose capital is Barcelona, is visiting Israel. Pasqual Maragall will meet with President Moshe Katsav, who expected to raise the issue.

[Ichhabe]

I say!!! That was a pretty bad comparison.

But why must they always scream "anti-semitism"? That is not making their case better. Why not call it lies and revisionism only?

...btw; Fvck'em. Burn them with the manual on the town square.

[Knutsen]

According to Israeli diplomatic officials in Spain, the murder of six million Jews is only mentioned in passing.

It's kind of boring to hear ONLY complaints about the 6 million jews, but what about the millions of non-jews who died in concentration camps? When i hear/read something about the holocaust coming from Israel , in few occasions the murder of non-jews is mentioned.


Btw, i agree that this manuals are very unfortunate (this is the first time i hear of them).

[UoUo]

According to Israeli diplomatic officials in Spain, the murder of six million Jews is only mentioned in passing.

It's kind of boring to hear ONLY complaints about the 6 million jews, but what about the millions of non-jews who died in concentration camps? When i hear/read something about the holocaust coming from Israel , in few occasions the murder of non-jews is mentioned.


Btw, i agree that this manuals are very unfortunate (this is the first time i hear of them).

:roll:

Maybe....cuz we are jews?


I sick of the this new statement of the europeans regarding the holoccaust.

**** you all.
they killed 6 milliom of us and that the important thing to me.
and not everything else.

[mack pl]

f*** you all.

thanks, we will try our best to make new Euro babies :lol:



they killed 6 milliom of us and that the important thing to me.
and not everything else.

who do you mean by "they"? Germans? Or maybe Europeans as a whole? ;)

Anyway, Poland loosed 6 milions citizens(I dont count Belarussians, and Ukrainians)...50 % of them were Jews, 50 % native Poles, and for me Jewish and Polish victims are in the same level...Jewish life isnt more worth than Polish, and vice versa....but you, my little semitic friend, can dissagree with me of course ;)

Shalom

[UoUo]

And for me Jewish victim and other victim of the war is not the same.


But i agree with you, jewish victim of the holocoast and Native Polish victim are the same.

But still i have more sensitive for him since as a jew i feel more connection to him.

That is so hard to understand?

[mack pl]

That is so hard to understand?

I have problems with understandig Jewish logic...maybe thats why Im poor :lol:


p-)

[UoUo]

That is so hard to understand?

I have problems with understandig Jewish logic...maybe thats why Im poor :lol:


p-)

p-)

[Moledet]

BTW, if I was to write this manual it would be something like that:
"The concentration camps can be compared to two other historical events: Darfur mass murder and the mass murder of 50mil. people by the Spanish conqueror in America."

[Knutsen]

BTW, if I was to write this manual it would be something like that:
"The concentration camps can be compared to two other historical events: Darfur mass murder and the mass murder of 50mil. people by the Spanish conqueror in America."
I wouldn't compare the holoaust to anything due to its nature. No country in history ever built such a killing system.


And for me Jewish victim and other victim of the war is not the same.



I sick of the this new statement of the europeans regarding the holoccaust.

f*** you all.
they killed 6 milliom of us and that the important thing to me.
and not everything else.


Maybe....cuz we are jews?

No, that doesn't have anything to do with being a jew, it has to do with being a xenophobe/racist.Following your logic we should never talk/remember the jews cause we aren' jews???
You asked me once about the bombings in Israel regarding my post about the anniversary of Madrid. I told you i felt it different but the victims were all the same. But now YOU only talk about the dead jews, about how Europeans killed 6million jews (AFAIK they were killed by nazis and nazi followers) but again you IGNORE the rest of the victims and JUSTIFY it saying that you are a jew and you only care about jews.
Now the difference between a NAZI and YOU is NOTHING. You are no better than those you hate, you are not better than those Hamas phanatics , you are not better than those white-supremacists.
Now you'll accuse me of anti-semitism (very typical)because you are a jew and i'm an european but you don't realise (or don't want to) that this is not anti-semitism. It's anti religious phanatics like you, like the ones who blow themselves up in the name of a religion, like the ones who burned people in my country, like the ones (like you) who go to Auschwitz to tell THEIR version of the holocaust and forgetting about the rest of the victims. That , my dear friend is revisionism, the same kind of revisionism you accuse europeans.

[UoUo]

difference between a NAZI and YOU is NOTHING


Have a nice day.

Ass hole

[Moledet]

BTW, if I was to write this manual it would be something like that:
"The concentration camps can be compared to two other historical events: Darfur mass murder and the mass murder of 50mil. people by the Spanish conqueror in America."
I wouldn't compare the holoaust to anything due to its nature. No country in history ever built such a killing system.


And for me Jewish victim and other victim of the war is not the same.



I sick of the this new statement of the europeans regarding the holoccaust.

f*** you all.
they killed 6 milliom of us and that the important thing to me.
and not everything else.


Maybe....cuz we are jews?

No, that doesn't have anything to do with being a jew, it has to do with being a xenophobe/racist.Following your logic we should never talk/remember the jews cause we aren' jews???
You asked me once about the bombings in Israel regarding my post about the anniversary of Madrid. I told you i felt it different but the victims were all the same. But now YOU only talk about the dead jews, about how Europeans killed 6million jews (AFAIK they were killed by nazis and nazi followers) but again you IGNORE the rest of the victims and JUSTIFY it saying that you are a jew and you only care about jews.
Now the difference between a NAZI and YOU is NOTHING. You are no better than those you hate, you are not better than those Hamas phanatics , you are not better than those white-supremacists.
Now you'll accuse me of anti-semitism (very typical)because you are a jew and i'm an european but you don't realise (or don't want to) that this is not anti-semitism. It's anti religious phanatics like you, like the ones who blow themselves up in the name of a religion, like the ones who burned people in my country, like the ones (like you) who go to Auschwitz to tell THEIR version of the holocaust and forgetting about the rest of the victims. That , my dear friend is revisionism, the same kind of revisionism you accuse europeans.
We didn't accuse europeans (spaniards) of revisionism in this case, we accused them of Antisemtiism and hypocracy.
When the report said that the death of six million Jews wasn't realy mentioned it meant that the others were mentioned a lot.

And YES, I care more of my town poorest as we say in hebrew, I do think that the others should be remembered but I'd let them fight for that.
And YES, for me to hear about the death of Jews is more close and horrible than to hear about any other group, because we are all brothers.

[Knutsen]

Moledet, i'm not talking about revisionism in this particular case, i was just making a comparison between revisionism and what UoUo and many others do.
I perfectly understand your point of view, in fact is fully respectable. I told that to UoUo when he asked me about the bombings in Israel. I understand that you feel closer to the murder of jews at the same extent i feel closer to the bombings in Madrid than to the ones in Israel. That is pretty reasonable. But that doesn't mean that i don't care about the rest.
My post was exlusive for UoUo and his posts which in my opinion are a great sample of xenophobia/racism. And UoUo, if all you can extract from my post is a single sentence then you should read my post carefully cause i'm talking about your attitude which certainly is the attitude of those you hate that much.
Moledet, no problem with you mate.

[Drako]

We didn't accuse europeans (spaniards) of revisionism in this case, we accused them of Antisemtiism and hypocracy.
When the report said that the death of six million Jews wasn't realy mentioned it meant that the others were mentioned a lot.

You can't just call every bad word about Jews an antisemitism... Should we accuse all newspapers which wrote about "Polish deathcamps" of being anti-Polish? Or do the same if your WW2 books are focused on Jewish casualties? Just tell me, how much space do your history books save for history of other nations during the WW2?

You can say that manual is poorly written but don't call it antisemitic cos this article doesn't mention any signs of that.

[Wodan]

come on, back to topic, open another topic about how jews are racists in general or are victims in general....





“The concentration camps can be compared to two other historical events: The wall of shame Israel is building in Palestine and the (American) detention camp in Guantanamo,” the manual goes.


Errm... isnt that a bit stupid?

Comparing a Wall with a Camp?
In what way?

And Id compare concentration camps with the gulags or the original concentration camps of the brits.... fits much better

[EvanL]

Its a stupid comparison but has nothing anti-semetic about it. Thats where people start loosing credebillity is when they start yelling anti-semetism at the slightes mention of anything negative about Israel. Afterall isnt the new Israel more than just jews?

[alexz]

BTW, if I was to write this manual it would be something like that:
"The concentration camps can be compared to two other historical events: Darfur mass murder and the mass murder of 50mil. people by the Spanish conqueror in America."
I wouldn't compare the holoaust to anything due to its nature. No country in history ever built such a killing system.


And for me Jewish victim and other victim of the war is not the same.



I sick of the this new statement of the europeans regarding the holoccaust.

f*** you all.
they killed 6 milliom of us and that the important thing to me.
and not everything else.


Maybe....cuz we are jews?

No, that doesn't have anything to do with being a jew, it has to do with being a xenophobe/racist.Following your logic we should never talk/remember the jews cause we aren' jews???
You asked me once about the bombings in Israel regarding my post about the anniversary of Madrid. I told you i felt it different but the victims were all the same. But now YOU only talk about the dead jews, about how Europeans killed 6million jews (AFAIK they were killed by nazis and nazi followers) but again you IGNORE the rest of the victims and JUSTIFY it saying that you are a jew and you only care about jews.
Now the difference between a NAZI and YOU is NOTHING. You are no better than those you hate, you are not better than those Hamas phanatics , you are not better than those white-supremacists.
Now you'll accuse me of anti-semitism (very typical)because you are a jew and i'm an european but you don't realise (or don't want to) that this is not anti-semitism. It's anti religious phanatics like you, like the ones who blow themselves up in the name of a religion, like the ones who burned people in my country, like the ones (like you) who go to Auschwitz to tell THEIR version of the holocaust and forgetting about the rest of the victims. That , my dear friend is revisionism, the same kind of revisionism you accuse europeans.

Sees like the catholics in spain pass their antisemetism from their
mothers breast milk. To say you are tired of the holocaust, to say that the Jewis have a different story of the their holocaust and to aquate
Israel to Nazis is something is done onlt to ease a very guilty conscious.
BTW the barcelona manual also equate the holocaust to the Guantanamo
Bay holding facilty of terrorist. After reading the manual i can truely hope
the Madrid bombing happens every day all over spain and the Basque shouldn't stop bombing until the racist spain burns to the ground.

[Rakki]

I don't recall Jews in their concentration camps firing off mortars and launching suicide bomber attacks on the Nazi prison guards.

[UoUo]

Moledet, i'm not talking about revisionism in this particular case, i was just making a comparison between revisionism and what UoUo and many others do.
I perfectly understand your point of view, in fact is fully respectable. I told that to UoUo when he asked me about the bombings in Israel. I understand that you feel closer to the murder of jews at the same extent i feel closer to the bombings in Madrid than to the ones in Israel. That is pretty reasonable. But that doesn't mean that i don't care about the rest.
My post was exlusive for UoUo and his posts which in my opinion are a great sample of xenophobia/racism. And UoUo, if all you can extract from my post is a single sentence then you should read my post carefully cause i'm talking about your attitude which certainly is the attitude of those you hate that much.
Moledet, no problem with you mate.

Calling me nazi don't worth even reading your Post.

As a all i think you didn't understand what i was wanted to tell you.

[UoUo]

What i meant to say in the first place was :

A victim of the war is not eaqul to a victim of the holocoast

But all the victims of the holocoast are eaqul.
But of coarse i care more about the jewish victims of the holocoast than the other victims.



And yes, i know my english sucks.

[mack pl]

What i meant to say in the first place was :

A victim of the war is not eaqul to a victim of the holocoast

But all the victims of the holocoast are eaqul.
But of coarse i care more about the jewish victims of the holocoast than the other victims.


so, Pole who was killed in Aushwitz, is not equal to the Jew who was killed in Aushwitz?

amazing

:lol: :roll:

[Moledet]

Its a stupid comparison but has nothing anti-semetic about it. Thats where people start loosing credebillity is when they start yelling anti-semetism at the slightes mention of anything negative about Israel. Afterall isnt the new Israel more than just jews?
It is antisemitic, because it tries to compare Jews to nazis which is antisemitism.

[UoUo]

What i meant to say in the first place was :

A victim of the war is not eaqul to a victim of the holocoast

But all the victims of the holocoast are eaqul.
But of coarse i care more about the jewish victims of the holocoast than the other victims.


so, Pole who was killed in Aushwitz, is not equal to the Jew who was killed in Aushwitz?

amazing

:lol: :roll:

WTF?

The war and the Holocoast are 2 diffrend things! i said all the victims of the Holocoast are eaqul! but i care more about the jews~! cuz i am jew.

that so hard to understand?

[mack pl]

What i meant to say in the first place was :

A victim of the war is not eaqul to a victim of the holocoast

But all the victims of the holocoast are eaqul.
But of coarse i care more about the jewish victims of the holocoast than the other victims.


so, Pole who was killed in Aushwitz, is not equal to the Jew who was killed in Aushwitz?

amazing

:lol: :roll:

WTF?

The war and the Holocoast are 2 diffrend things! i said all the victims of the Holocoast are eaqul! but i care more about the jews~! cuz i am jew.

that so hard to understand?

you still amazes me....2 guys died in same way, in same place, from hand of the same SS-man, but theirs death isnt equal, just becuase one of them was a Jew :lol: WOW....okay, Holocaust victims rulezzz :roll:


end of story for me, my friend ;)

[Knutsen]

Calling me nazi don't worth even reading your Post.
The same can be said when you call me or anyone esle anti-semite


And yes, i know my english sucks.
I'm not one of those who ends discussions or uses the argument of the poor english of the other one instead of entering a real discussion. That's not my style.


It is antisemitic, because it tries to compare Jews to nazis which is antisemitism.
I kind of agree with you. It should change Jew for Israel.


Sees like the catholics in spain pass their antisemetism from their
mothers breast milk.
You're talking to an atheist anti-Catholic Church (and before you all bite my neck, i'm agains the INSTITUTION, not personal beliefs)


To say you are tired of the holocaust, to say that the Jewis have a different story of the their holocaust and to aquate

Use the search function to find the thread called "Auschwitz 2004".


like the ones (like you) who go to Auschwitz to tell THEIR version of the holocaust and forgetting about the rest of the victims
That's what i said about jews and different storeies, which is far different from your statement. I invite you to go to Auschwitz and ask any guide about SOME Ultra-Orthodox guides who go to Auschwitz.


Madrid bombing happens every day all over spain and the Basque shouldn't stop bombing until the racist spain burns to the ground.

The Basque???? Man you know **** about Spain and the Basque conflict. Saying Basque when referring to ETA is a stupid generalisation , like saying all muslims are terrorists ( well, i'm sure you think so).

[BigBaribal]

BTW, if I was to write this manual it would be something like that:
"The concentration camps can be compared to two other historical events: Darfur mass murder and the mass murder of 50mil. people by the Spanish conqueror in America."


I would rather say the Rwanda and the Armenian genocids.

[S'13]

It's kind of boring to hear ONLY complaints about the 6 million jews,

I never knew the Holocaust was supposed to be entertaining.


but what about the millions of non-jews who died in concentration camps?

They are also mentioned, however no one can deny the fact that the Jews were the main subjects designated for liquidation and that the majority of those who were systemicly murderd were Jews.


When i hear/read something about the holocaust coming from Israel , in few occasions the murder of non-jews is mentioned.

This is due to the reasons I mentioned above and the fact that as a Jewish nation the genocide of our people has had a profound impact on us.

[S'13]

so, Pole who was killed in Aushwitz, is not equal to the Jew who was killed in Aushwitz?

amazing

:lol: :roll:

Yet a Pole who was sent to Auschwitz was probably sent there because he was an intellectual or a part of the Polish underground while the Jew was sent to Auschwitz because he was born.

[Gallewicz]

Really sad to see you all fighting like this, everyone that died in the holocaust, whether jewish, gypsy, polish, russian, etc went through hell and deserve respect. And comparing Guantanamo/The fence to the holocaust is just wrong on so many levels.

[UoUo]

Really sad to see you all fighting like this, everyone that died in the holocaust, whether jewish, gypsy, polish, russian, etc went through hell and deserve respect. And comparing Guantanamo/The fence to the holocaust is just wrong on so many levels.

Agree.

[Weasel]

so, Pole who was killed in Aushwitz, is not equal to the Jew who was killed in Aushwitz?

amazing

:lol: :roll:

Yet a Pole who was sent to Auschwitz was probably sent there because he was an intellectual or a part of the Polish underground while the Jew was sent to Auschwitz because he was born.

*still sees no difference*

[S'13]

so, Pole who was killed in Aushwitz, is not equal to the Jew who was killed in Aushwitz?

amazing

:lol: :roll:

Yet a Pole who was sent to Auschwitz was probably sent there because he was an intellectual or a part of the Polish underground while the Jew was sent to Auschwitz because he was born.

*still sees no difference*

In that case there's no use having the term genocide...
As you don't differentiate between murder on a political basis and murder on a racial basis.

[Weasel]

so, Pole who was killed in Aushwitz, is not equal to the Jew who was killed in Aushwitz?

amazing

:lol: :roll:

Yet a Pole who was sent to Auschwitz was probably sent there because he was an intellectual or a part of the Polish underground while the Jew was sent to Auschwitz because he was born.

*still sees no difference*

In that case there's no use having the term genocide...
As you don't differentiate between murder on a political basis and murder on a racial basis.

It´s only a definition by law. The result is the same: a dead human being.

[S'13]

The result is the same: a dead human being.

The Holocaust was more than murder... it was the attempt to annihilate whole ethnic groups. That is were the fundamental difference lies.
True, a Pole would be murderd by the Germans because he was considerd a part of the Polish inteligencia or he was a part of the underground fighting the Nazi occupation.
However at that time there weren't (not yet at least) plans to erase that Poles culture and his nation, and not leave a single remnant of it.

[mack pl]

The result is the same: a dead human being.

The Holocaust was more than murder... it was the attempt to annihilate whole ethnic groups. That is were the fundamental difference lies.
True, a Pole would be murderd by the Germans because he was considerd a part of the Polish inteligencia or he was a part of the underground fighting the Nazi occupation.
However at that time there weren't (not yet at least) plans to erase that Poles culture and his nation, and not leave a single remnant of it.

I see your point...but you know that Slavic nations were also in German plans...of course, they didn't want to kill 100% of us...

Shalom

[Weasel]

@ mack pl

Sorry, Poles are only victims second class. Jews are the victims first class. :petting:

:cantbeli:

[S'13]

The result is the same: a dead human being.

The Holocaust was more than murder... it was the attempt to annihilate whole ethnic groups. That is were the fundamental difference lies.
True, a Pole would be murderd by the Germans because he was considerd a part of the Polish inteligencia or he was a part of the underground fighting the Nazi occupation.
However at that time there weren't (not yet at least) plans to erase that Poles culture and his nation, and not leave a single remnant of it.

I see your point...but you know that Slavic nations were also in German plans


I am well aware of this... after the Germans were to finish with us they would have probably started to systemicly murder the Slavs, although they would have done so while considering how many they should leave and live as the "master race's" slaves.

[S'13]

Sorry, Poles are only victims second class. Jews are the victims first class. :petting:



The only one who sees classes here is you...

Poles in the concentration camps were just the same as the Jews in the camps, however the perception of what was done to the total Jewish popualtion and the total Polish population was different, at least in at that time.

[mack pl]

@ mack pl

Sorry, Poles are only victims second class. Jews are the victims first class. :petting:

:cantbeli:

its not like that mate ;) I still belive that death of single human being is absolutaly equal...but generally speaking, we have to do with 2 different situations...as S'13 said in his post above, after killing all Jews, nazis would deal with Slavs...

[Stormy]

Mack_PL is on a war path~~ :D

[mack pl]

Mack_PL is on a war path~~ :D

not at all... ;)

[BigBaribal]

@ mack pl

Sorry, Poles are only victims second class. Jews are the victims first class. :petting:

:cantbeli:

its not like that mate ;) I still belive that death of single human being is absolutaly equal...but generally speaking, we have to do with 2 different situations...as S'13 said in his post above, after killing all Jews, nazis would deal with Slavs...

Historically, it's probably not totally correct to say that. Of course, the antisemitism of the nazis was obvious, but in some areas of Russia, the Germans have been rather well welcome and even helped until the end of the war: I'm for instance thinking of the many cossacks who fought against Soviet troops until the end.

[Stormy]

Ahh the Cossacks, the men of the vast euro steppe. Pl is a descended of the winged hussar, not a cossack though. :P

[mack pl]

@ mack pl

Sorry, Poles are only victims second class. Jews are the victims first class. :petting:

:cantbeli:

its not like that mate ;) I still belive that death of single human being is absolutaly equal...but generally speaking, we have to do with 2 different situations...as S'13 said in his post above, after killing all Jews, nazis would deal with Slavs...

Historically, it's probably not totally correct to say that. Of course, the antisemitism of the nazis was obvious, but in some areas of Russia, the Germans have been rather well welcome and even helped until the end of the war: I'm for instance thinking of the many cossacks who fought against Soviet troops until the end.

it has nothing to do with our discussion...I can say about Jewish militia in ghettos who helped Germans(in some way), but it means nothing...and just becuase some Cossacks, or Ukrainians, or Russians(RONA) helped nazis, it doesnt mean nazis loved Slavs, and din't want to deal with us(Im not talking about extermination of course). So, I disagree with you...

[mack pl]

Ahh the Cossacks, the men of the vast euro steppe. Pl is a descended of the winged hussar, not a cossack though. :P

btw
in German army fought smth about 250 000 Cossacks....one of my ancestors was Cossack, but he serve in Russian tsar army(XIX century)... ;)

[Stormy]

Good stuff PL, I have the Winged Hussar model. It's very nice.
This very same one, I have
http://www.maitlandtoysoldiershoppe.com/products/images/grenadastudios/g277.jpg

[mack pl]

its Polish Husarz(Winged cavalryman)... ;)

[BigBaribal]

@ mack pl

Sorry, Poles are only victims second class. Jews are the victims first class. :petting:

:cantbeli:

its not like that mate ;) I still belive that death of single human being is absolutaly equal...but generally speaking, we have to do with 2 different situations...as S'13 said in his post above, after killing all Jews, nazis would deal with Slavs...

Historically, it's probably not totally correct to say that. Of course, the antisemitism of the nazis was obvious, but in some areas of Russia, the Germans have been rather well welcome and even helped until the end of the war: I'm for instance thinking of the many cossacks who fought against Soviet troops until the end.

it has nothing to do with our discussion...I can say about Jewish militia in ghettos who helped Germans(in some way), but it means nothing...and just becuase some Cossacks, or Ukrainians, or Russians(RONA) helped nazis, it doesnt mean nazis loved Slavs, and din't want to deal with us(Im not talking about extermination of course). So, I disagree with you...


I've just read yesterday a very good and long article in a Swiss newspapers about the travel of a journalist in the cossak area of Tchetcheny (at Tchervlionnaia area to be more precise). So this journalist asked an old cossack named Petro Kolodiadny about Germans during WWII and the old man said: "The German, have they been welcomed? No, Sir, I must tell you the truth, the cossacks have not good welcomed the Germans. They have welcomed the Germans with all their soul, that's the truth."

[mack pl]

I've just read yesterday a very good and long article in a Swiss newspapers about the travel of a journalist in the cossak area of Tchetcheny (at Tchervlionnaia area to be more precise). So this journalist asked an old cossack named Petro Kolodiadny about Germans during WWII and the old man said: "The German, have they been welcomed? No, Sir, I must tell you the truth, the cossacks have not good welcomed the Germans. They have welcomed the Germans with all their soul, that's the truth."

true, but it has nothing to do with antisemitism, or German politic and plans about Slavs ;)

btw
I think Tchetcheny=Chechnya

[alexz]

BTW, if I was to write this manual it would be something like that:
"The concentration camps can be compared to two other historical events: Darfur mass murder and the mass murder of 50mil. people by the Spanish conqueror in America."


I would rather say the Rwanda and the Armenian genocids.

The barrier wall can be compared with fenced and occupied spanish cities Ceuta and Melilla (enclaves) in Morocco. Minus the hundreads of suicide
bomber.

[Loco]

BTW, if I was to write this manual it would be something like that:
"The concentration camps can be compared to two other historical events: Darfur mass murder and the mass murder of 50mil. people by the Spanish conqueror in America."


I would rather say the Rwanda and the Armenian genocids.

The barrier wall can be compared with fenced and occupied spanish cities Ceuta and Melilla (enclaves) in Morocco. Minus the hundreads of suicide
bomber.
That statement about the fence in Melilla is the same stupid statement that israeli ambassador in Spain said months, the same statement that isrealies ambassadors across the world are saying oftently without being kicked in the ass out. They are everything except diplomatic, no other diplomatic would be tolerated to saying false nonsenses in the host country without consequences. The wall in Cisjordania is an obscenity to all human beings with some common sense. The fence in Mellilla, even it can´t be called a wall, it´s just that, a fence in the border between Marroq and Spain, Spain hasn´t stolen nor a inch of marroqui territory for building that fence, not to speak of expellling peasants of their homes or the way that Guardia Civil care about the unlucky inmigrants that try to cross the fence compared with palestinians humilliated and killed in their own land.
I´m tired of this matters about Israel, always the israelins blaming to people and using the holocaust victims as an alibi for doing today what it´s just unfair, illegal and oftenly a crime.
About the comparisons of Mr.Moledet, well, I simply think he´s a racist, by things he said before in other statements and it´s just because he´s israeli and jew that he hasn´t to hide being racist and other things that are exactly contrary to my opinions, he doesn´t like anybody out of Israel and I feel free to say that I don´t like neither the face in his avatar nor him nor people like him in his country, that´s not saying that I don´t like all israelis or jews, I wouldn´t need to say the last point but I know I need to say here and now.
I support rules valids for everybody everywhere, I deeply think all humans beings have same rights and the reciprocity must by the rule among men. Simultaneously, I´m more interested at first by the destiny of people close to me, my relatives or other spaniards, than the fate of foreing people, but once I said that, I don´t presume foreigners should be more interested in the well-being of spaniards over their own people and that´s a thing israelis sometimes tend to forget. Reciprocity, remember.
And about "the mass murder of 50mil. people by the Spanish conqueror in America...", ¡Qué grandes somos! Aren´t we? We were better than nazis, we killed 10 times more people than them with only less of 20.000 spanish in America in the XVI. Really, we are the supreme race, the chosen people, masters of souls and bodies, because today spanish people are welcome in every american country by the survivors of that genocide, and I think it´s not the case of germans in Israel today. Well, maybe at last it wasn´t a good comparison the conquer of America with the nazis death camps. Anyway, I don´t admit lessons of good behaviour coming from Israel.

[Loco]

http://www.periodistadigital.com/imgs/20050520/1116591114_5_1_1.jpg
I beg pardon to Israel for the visit of those two spanish clowns, better said catalan clowns(excuse me the catalans of the forum, pero son vuestras criaturas) to Israel last week. They are the president of Catalunya(the wannabe photographer) and the leader of the party allied in the ruling coalition in Catalunya. Frankly, I would expect some complain comming from Israel because of this two cretines, not about books written in Catalunya that in no way any israeli, ambassador or not, has the right to even try to censor.

[Moledet]

BTW, if I was to write this manual it would be something like that:
"The concentration camps can be compared to two other historical events: Darfur mass murder and the mass murder of 50mil. people by the Spanish conqueror in America."


I would rather say the Rwanda and the Armenian genocids.

The barrier wall can be compared with fenced and occupied spanish cities Ceuta and Melilla (enclaves) in Morocco. Minus the hundreads of suicide
bomber.
That statement about the fence in Melilla is the same stupid statement that israeli ambassador in Spain said months, the same statement that isrealies ambassadors across the world are saying oftently without being kicked in the ass out. They are everything except diplomatic, no other diplomatic would be tolerated to saying false nonsenses in the host country without consequences. The wall in Cisjordania is an obscenity to all human beings with some common sense. The fence in Mellilla, even it can´t be called a wall, it´s just that, a fence in the border between Marroq and Spain, Spain hasn´t stolen nor a inch of marroqui territory for building that fence, not to speak of expellling peasants of their homes or the way that Guardia Civil care about the unlucky inmigrants that try to cross the fence compared with palestinians humilliated and killed in their own land.
I´m tired of this matters about Israel, always the israelins blaming to people and using the holocaust victims as an alibi for doing today what it´s just unfair, illegal and oftenly a crime.
About the comparisons of Mr.Moledet, well, I simply think he´s a racist, by things he said before in other statements and it´s just because he´s israeli and jew that he hasn´t to hide being racist and other things that are exactly contrary to my opinions, he doesn´t like anybody out of Israel and I feel free to say that I don´t like neither the face in his avatar nor him nor people like him in his country, that´s not saying that I don´t like all israelis or jews, I wouldn´t need to say the last point but I know I need to say here and now.
I support rules valids for everybody everywhere, I deeply think all humans beings have same rights and the reciprocity must by the rule among men. Simultaneously, I´m more interested at first by the destiny of people close to me, my relatives or other spaniards, than the fate of foreing people, but once I said that, I don´t presume foreigners should be more interested in the well-being of spaniards over their own people and that´s a thing israelis sometimes tend to forget. Reciprocity, remember.
And about "the mass murder of 50mil. people by the Spanish conqueror in America...", ¡Qué grandes somos! Aren´t we? We were better than nazis, we killed 10 times more people than them with only less of 20.000 spanish in America in the XVI. Really, we are the supreme race, the chosen people, masters of souls and bodies, because today spanish people are welcome in every american country by the survivors of that genocide, and I think it´s not the case of germans in Israel today. Well, maybe at last it wasn´t a good comparison the conquer of America with the nazis death camps. Anyway, I don´t admit lessons of good behaviour coming from Israel.
Why did you build that fence? Because you fear of ilegal immigrants. Why did we build our fence? Because for over 30 years we've been attacked by these terrorists.
We didn't steal that land from anyone, it belongs to NOBODY and if our government wish so we can annex it and make it ours. Right now they don't annex the part in the Israeli side of the barrier because they want to discuss with the Palestinians about this land in the future (a very stupid idea IMO). The fence that we built in Lebanon was almost identical to the one we are building today and we moved it tens of times without any trouble.
We don't treat the poor palestinians good enough? Oh I feel so sorry for them that they can't cross the fence and blow me up like they wish.

First of all, I like all the Jews around the world, whether they are american, european or whatever.
The only nations I dislike are the europeans and the arabs in the enemy countries.

History is tough ah? Well you did kill 50mil. people in the americas (directly and indirectly) and the ones that are living there now are pretty much spanish since you brought your own people there and converted the natives and all kind of stuff. I don't expect them to dislike you since anyone who did, was killed 500 years ago.

BTW, did you write in spanish, "We are bigger than somo wrestlers"?

Oh and, Palestinians don't have a land they are refugees, ask them for papers, and they'd laugh in your face.

[Knutsen]

It's kind of boring to hear ONLY complaints about the 6 million jews,

I never knew the Holocaust was supposed to be entertaining.


I'm sure you perfectly know what i mean when i say boring, so please don't twist things up .




When i hear/read something about the holocaust coming from Israel , in few occasions the murder of non-jews is mentioned.

This is due to the reasons I mentioned above and the fact that as a Jewish nation the genocide of our people has had a profound impact on us.

However SOME Israelis accuse Europeans (in this particular case spaniards) of anti-semitism when the holocaust is not mentioned the way they like.
At the same time they accuse ALL europeans of that holocaust (like UoUo). As Loco said, the holocaust is being used by many as a shield thanks to which they can go around insulting, accusing others and simply being a racist because the world "owes" them something. I'm not saying the hiolocaust was terrible (you can see my previous posts about it), i'm just saying that the use some of the "victims" do of it is completelly repugnant.



The only nations I dislike are the europeans and the arabs in the enemy countries.
This is an example of what i said above. If it was a post by an European automatically everyone would be biting his neck accusing him of racist, nazi and the like. However, coming from Moledet this sounds to many people as a self-defensive statement.


History is tough ah? Well you did kill 50mil. people in the americas (directly and indirectly) and the ones that are living there now are pretty much spanish since you brought your own people there and converted the natives and all kind of stuff
I'm sure you know many millions died due to European diseases like flu. Yes, whereas flu was not mortal for Europeans it was highly destructive for indians. And that , my friend is something people didn't know at the time.

[Loco]

There´s no posibility of any discussion with you with self-willed and false statements like that of "land belongs to nobody" or "palestinians don´t have a land", etc. Of course, you´ve stolen their land and destroyed every document you could to try to erase their claims.
Spaniards killed lots of people in American, and??? History is tough and marvellous, and I think the only thing we spanish are truly ashamed is about the civil war 70 years ago. Because you like to blame people of everywhere, I think you should study history seriously: There never were 50million people in America before 1492, the most of indians died in the first 100 years after the arrival of spanish, mostly of illnes like small pox, and all the spanish that arrived to American until 1600(soldiers, sailors, civil servants, workers, etc) were less than 20.000. And certainly you can brainwash people, that´s a thing that many israelies like you believe, but you can´t convert a red skin into a black bear pale face spanish. Most of indians survived, and whole countries like Paraguay, Guatemala, Bolivia or Nicaragua are populated almost 100% by natives, and big countries like Mexico have the 80%percent of the people with indians ancestors, only a minority of mexicans have more spanish ancestors than mexicans. Certainly, the result of the discoverement of American it would be quiet different if israelies had arrived to America. Lets us suppose what would be the result, I think everything except israelies soldiers getting married with naked indians and the rabbis blessing the union.


BTW, did you write in spanish, "We are bigger than somo wrestlers"?
No entiendo. Try here http://translation2.paralink.com/

[Loco]

Indians killed millions of spanish and europeans with sifilis too, since the first travel of Colón, ask to Martín Pinzón. Anyway, I think the contagious was very pleasant ;)
GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE!!!

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

If Isreal invades Syria and I support Syria does that make me a Nazi?

Just saying

[S'13]

They are everything except diplomatic, no other diplomatic would be tolerated to saying false nonsenses in the host country without consequences.


Maybe it's not diplomatic... but false?


The wall in Cisjordania is an obscenity to all human beings with some common sense. The fence in Mellilla, even it can´t be called a wall, it´s just that, a fence in the border between Marroq and Spain, Spain hasn´t stolen nor a inch of marroqui territory for building that fence, not to speak of expellling peasants of their homes or the way that Guardia Civil care about the unlucky inmigrants that try to cross the fence compared with palestinians humilliated and killed in their own land.

rofl

The words 'hypocrisy' and 'distortion' aren't enough to describe what you just wrote.

I guess the fact that Morocco has objected to the construction of the barrier, as it considers Melilla to be occupied Moroccan land doesn't mean anything.


http://www.djh.dk/euroviews/2003/maps/MELILLA_MAP.gif

Spanish land you say... it's not even on the same continent as Spain :lol:

As for calling our barrier a wall, it's kind of strange considering that about 97% of it is in fact a fence.

However unlike you we are building this barrier in order to actually protect our civilians and our borders against terror attacks and not because we have some interests to keep immigrants and smugglers out of a certain area that is not even on the same continent as our state.


because today spanish people are welcome in every american country by the survivors of that genocide,

Yeah having a few hundred years pass after the event and having the whole issue neglected can do that.


and I think it´s not the case of germans in Israel today

And you know this because? Israel and Germany are strong partners in many fields. True, in Israel there are people who don't want to have anything to do with Germany.
However you don't have this just in Israel but also in France, Holland and England and other nations that didn't even endure genocide at the hands of the Germans.

[S'13]

I'm sure you perfectly know what i mean when i say boring, so please don't twist things up .


I know what you mean, however there are ways in which you can bring across your opinions, and yours was a very bad example.


However SOME Israelis accuse Europeans (in this particular case spaniards) of anti-semitism when the holocaust is not mentioned the way they like.

The Holocaust is not mentioned the way they like? :roll:

In this example we can see that there is an equalization between Nazis and Israelis, Goebbels himself loved to do such equalizations between Jews and rats or between Jews and the Bolsheviks. What can we do that this case in Spain looks very familiar.

Of course you could say that there is no comparison being made with Jews but with the IDF, Israeli government, Zionists and so on. On the other hand I could argue that instead of using the word Jew they are using the word Israel or Zionists in order to camouflage their message and provide themselves with the benefit of the doubt while still managing to get it across.

Now please keep in mind that I myself am not claiming that this case is one of anti-Semitic nature or not but you could understand the view of things that some people have (what I wrote above).

[S'13]

If Isreal invades Syria and I support Syria does that make me a Nazi?


Well if you were to support the Syrians because you believe in their cause, that doesn't mean you are an anti-Semite.

If you were to support Syria simply because it was fighting a nation populated mostly by Jews and because it is regarded as the Jewish national homeland then your motives are surly anti-Semitic.

[S'13]

There´s no posibility of any discussion with you with self-willed and false statements like that of "land belongs to nobody" or "palestinians don´t have a land", etc. Of course, you´ve stolen their land and destroyed every document you could to try to erase their claims.


Loco, the Palestinians never had autonomous control over these lands, this is a fact accepted by everybody and even by the Palestinians themselves.


Because you like to blame people of everywhere, I think you should study history seriously: There never were 50million people in America before 1492, the most of indians died in the first 100 years after the arrival of spanish, mostly of illnes like small pox, and all the spanish that arrived to American until 1600(soldiers, sailors, civil servants, workers, etc) were less than 20.000. And certainly you can brainwash people,

Although I don't agree with the statements made by Moledet, it is a known fact that the Spanish enslaved native Americans, enforced Catholicism and in some cases deliberately spread disease to the natives.


but you can´t convert a red skin into a black bear pale face spanish.

But you can reduce the ethnic group's numbers and kill off their culture and force those who are left to assimilate.


Paraguay, Guatemala, Bolivia or Nicaragua are populated almost 100% by natives

Not really...

Paraguay- 95% of the population are Mestizos

Guatemala- 55% of the population are Metizos while 42% are in fact Amerindians.

Nicaragua-69% of the population are Metizos while under 17% are people of unmixed European descent.

Bolivia is the only country out of those you mentioned that has a majority of indigenous groups (56%-62%).


and big countries like Mexico have the 80%percent of the people with indians ancestors, only a minority of mexicans have more spanish ancestors than mexicans.

Ok, lets have a look...

Mexico-60% are of mixed descent.

Colombia-58% are of mixed descent while 20% are of European descent.

Argentina-88% are of European descent.


Certainly, the result of the discoverement of American it would be quiet different if israelies had arrived to America.

Yeah, we would have probably given them equal rights without forcing them to assimilate and enable them to have their own culture.

[Knutsen]

The Holocaust is not mentioned the way they like?
Sure, what i mean is that in the pamphlet there's a mention to the holocaust. As the article says, that mention is very brief. Now SOME (not the word SOME in my posts) accuse it of being anti-semite. But when the same people talk about the holocaust from THEIR point of view, IGNORING and FORGETTING facts, that is perfectly acceptable, isn't it??

That is hypocrisy and double-standards man

[S'13]

But when the same people talk about the holocaust from THEIR point of view, IGNORING and FORGETTING facts, that is perfectly acceptable, isn't it??


I take it that you mean people who mention the Jeiwsh aspect of the Holocaust.

I don't see what's wrong, naturally as Jews we will focus on what happend to the Jews as this is what had the greatest impact on us. However I fail to see how this seems to you as forgetting or ignoring the fact that other groups were victims of the Holocaust.

Also I find it difficult to see how you can compare this to a case in which the Holocaust concentration camps are placed in the same category as a barrier being built in order to prevent terror attacks.

[Loco]

This is so tiring...
We spanish don´t neglect any crime in America, we conquered, we killed, we oblied to convert to catholicism 500 years ago, and we enslaved indians, why not? that were the things that people did time ago. The jews expelled from Spain contributed with their cash to finance the sultan Soliman The Magnificent in the hot and the cold war against chrisitian europe. Thousands and thousands of spaniards were caught and sold as slaves in their villages by turks and berbers galleys frequently financed with cash of jews, and sent to Istambul or Algier, where wealthy jews gathered lots of money in all kinds of trade. Everybody could be a slave in that time, except the jews as I see.
The conquest of America was strongly discussed at the time at home both in the court and in the universities, and the doctrine elaborated by spanish scholars(Menchaca, Francisco de Vitoria, Francisco Suárez and others) founded the modern "ius gens", or International Law. Many conquistadores were sent to the jail, and there´s some relation with their behavior with the indians. You didn´t exterminate today palestinians because the world wouldn´t tolerate you to do it. Enough said?
About the meaning of "mestizo" in America today, I´m afraid I know more than you about that word, not only because I know many more americans than you but because I was in America. It´s not a question of having 100% indian genes, in the moment you speak and think mainly in spanish, and you wear western clothes and live as a westerner, you aren´t considered an indian anymore but a "mestizo" even if all your ancestors are indians. Israelies, like arabs with their tribal mentality, dont understant the difference between culture and race. You have been conquered like us by Rome, but it seems you didnt learnt of them.
Many americans have some spanish ancestors, but only about a 1/64 or 1/128 or 1/256, they don´t look like spanish but share and contribute to the same culture than spanish from Spain, that´s not the stept of a genocide but the consequence of an invassion where invaders melted with the invaded people, and we spanish weren´t the only conquerors that melted with the conquered, many other people before and after us did that. We were taught by Rome, contrary to jews that didnt learn anything good of Rome, even you had one Massada and spanish had at least 4 Massadas. There is something called LAW thats more important that the tribal links in a modern society.
We are living in the XXI and you still are crying and living with the rules of 500 years ago.
It is your problem, as jews, that you don´t melt with people, if you´re majority then you exclude the non jews people around you, but if you´re a minority you ask for tolerance to other people. You wouldnt considerate as a jew an indian that had only a jew grandgrandgrandparent, in fact you would reject out of your community that man. At least spanish recognized their sons and gave their habits and surnames to them. We open the doors of our homes to other people, you dont. You and us are different, that´s all.
And about Melilla, that´s spanish soil way before Mahoma was born, and if I were a jew, I wouldn´t talk too much about spanish stealing that piece of land to Marroq. There are big jews communities in Melilla and Ceuta that were threatened by muslims neighbour in recent times, and I am pretty sure jews from Melilla would prefer to build up a wall at the israely stile than a fragile fence. And this links to other fact: the ingratitude that many jews here and in Israel show to the arab world. Jews lived peacefully among arabs since the time of Mahoma. In Marroq, in fact, there were jews since the time of the Roman Empire, many of the jews expelled from Spain in 1492 stablished in Marroq and lived there until the beginning of the XX century, when Spain occupied the north of Marroq (not Ceuta and Melilla). The berbers, of course, fougth hardly agaisnt spanish soldiers, not the jews that lived in cities like Xauen or Tetuan, that prefered living and doing good deals with the newcomers, and even going to live to the "occupied" Ceuta, Melilla or even the same Spain. Jews in Spain like the fence of Melilla, are they wrong or right?

[Moledet]

This is so tiring...
We spanish don´t neglect any crime in America, we conquered, we killed, we oblied to convert to catholicism 500 years ago, and we enslaved indians, why not? that were the things that people did time ago. The jews expelled from Spain contributed with their cash to finance the sultan Soliman The Magnificent in the hot and the cold war against chrisitian europe. Thousands and thousands of spaniards were caught and sold as slaves in their villages by turks and berbers galleys frequently financed with cash of jews, and sent to Istambul or Algier, where wealthy jews gathered lots of money in all kinds of trade. Everybody could be a slave in that time, except the jews as I see.
The conquest of America was strongly discussed at the time at home both in the court and in the universities, and the doctrine elaborated by spanish scholars(Menchaca, Francisco de Vitoria, Francisco Suárez and others) founded the modern "ius gens", or International Law. Many conquistadores were sent to the jail, and there´s some relation with their behavior with the indians. You didn´t exterminate today palestinians because the world wouldn´t tolerate you to do it. Enough said?
About the meaning of "mestizo" in America today, I´m afraid I know more than you about that word, not only because I know many more americans than you but because I was in America. It´s not a question of having 100% indian genes, in the moment you speak and think mainly in spanish, and you wear western clothes and live as a westerner, you aren´t considered an indian anymore but a "mestizo" even if all your ancestors are indians. Israelies, like arabs with their tribal mentality, dont understant the difference between culture and race. You have been conquered like us by Rome, but it seems you didnt learnt of them.
Many americans have some spanish ancestors, but only about a 1/64 or 1/128 or 1/256, they don´t look like spanish but share and contribute to the same culture than spanish from Spain, that´s not the stept of a genocide but the consequence of an invassion where invaders melted with the invaded people, and we spanish weren´t the only conquerors that melted with the conquered, many other people before and after us did that. We were taught by Rome, contrary to jews that didnt learn anything good of Rome, even you had one Massada and spanish had at least 4 Massadas. There is something called LAW thats more important that the tribal links in a modern society.
We are living in the XXI and you still are crying and living with the rules of 500 years ago.
It is your problem, as jews, that you don´t melt with people, if you´re majority then you exclude the non jews people around you, but if you´re a minority you ask for tolerance to other people. You wouldnt considerate as a jew an indian that had only a jew grandgrandgrandparent, in fact you would reject out of your community that man. At least spanish recognized their sons and gave their habits and surnames to them. We open the doors of our homes to other people, you dont. You and us are different, that´s all.
And about Melilla, that´s spanish soil way before Mahoma was born, and if I were a jew, I wouldn´t talk too much about spanish stealing that piece of land to Marroq. There are big jews communities in Melilla and Ceuta that were threatened by muslims neighbour in recent times, and I am pretty sure jews from Melilla would prefer to build up a wall at the israely stile than a fragile fence. And this links to other fact: the ingratitude that many jews here and in Israel show to the arab world. Jews lived peacefully among arabs since the time of Mahoma. In Marroq, in fact, there were jews since the time of the Roman Empire, many of the jews expelled from Spain in 1492 stablished in Marroq and lived there until the beginning of the XX century, when Spain occupied the north of Marroq (not Ceuta and Melilla). The berbers, of course, fougth hardly agaisnt spanish soldiers, not the jews that lived in cities like Xauen or Tetuan, that prefered living and doing good deals with the newcomers, and even going to live to the "occupied" Ceuta, Melilla or even the same Spain. Jews in Spain like the fence of Melilla, are they wrong or right?
Heh, so many stereotypes of the Jews that it looks like it was written 400 years ago, and then you wonder why...

[Loco]

Not stereotypes, but true facts, about stereotypes what you all have written about 50 millions murdered in America or Melilla.
I just cant understand the mental process in what a jew born, lets say in Tanger where his family lived since many centuries ago, and educated in spanish, decides to stablishes himself in Madrid and being more exagerated spanish than me, and why other jew born in Tetuan or the same Tanger, where his family lived since many centuries ago, educated in spanish too, and he decides to travel and living in Palestina and says he does own that land. None of them will consider themselves as marroqis, well, simply I dont understand it. The second guy, for example, could be Shlomo Ben Ami, former israeli ambassador in Madrid, a man who I consider btw a friend of Spain, and by far a better ambassador that the actual one, and still so I dont understan him.
And its true that the way jews deal and relates with people is different that the spanish way, both you and us can create problems, but because you dont like to mix and melt with people and we like to do it, it depends of the situation that can be good or bad.. I dont say we are better than you.

[Knutsen]

I take it that you mean people who mention the Jeiwsh aspect of the Holocaust.
Exactly, the ones who only mention that aspect.


However I fail to see how this seems to you as forgetting or ignoring the fact that other groups were victims of the Holocaust.
I'm not talking about the Barcelona manual, i was just talking about UoUo, his attitude and the attitude of many others.


Also I find it difficult to see how you can compare this to a case in which the Holocaust concentration camps are placed in the same category as a barrier being built in order to prevent terror attacks.

Again, i'm not talking about this particular case.I'm not comparing the barrier with the holocaust. In fact i think this manual is pretty unfortunate to say the least.

To clarify things, i'm caomplaining about the use some jews do of the holocaust, the manipulation and the double standards . I'm not talking about you. Of course there's the same situation in the non-jews side, of course there is anti-semitism, but in this particular thread i'm not discussing it. Everything comes from UoUo's posts which in my opinion are a great sample of those things i'm mentioning above.

[Moledet]

Not stereotypes, but true facts, about stereotypes what you all have written about 50 millions murdered in America or Melilla.
I just cant understand the mental process in what a jew born, lets say in Tanger where his family lived since many centuries ago, and educated in spanish, decides to stablishes himself in Madrid and being more exagerated spanish than me, and why other jew born in Tetuan or the same Tanger, where his family lived since many centuries ago, educated in spanish too, and he decides to travel and living in Palestina and says he does own that land. None of them will consider themselves as marroqis, well, simply I dont understand it. The second guy, for example, could be Shlomo Ben Ami, former israeli ambassador in Madrid, a man who I consider btw a friend of Spain, and by far a better ambassador that the actual one, and still so I dont understan him.
And its true that the way jews deal and relates with people is different that the spanish way, both you and us can create problems, but because you dont like to mix and melt with people and we like to do it, it depends of the situation that can be good or bad.. I dont say we are better than you.
Jews don't want to assimilate, believe it or not but they feel great as Jews. the fact that you can't accept this is disturbing.

As for Jews not fighting, first of all they weren't allowed to fight, carrying weapons by Jews was forbidden all around the world. Jews did have a fighting techniq called Abir, but when the Jews were deported to Europe they weren't allowed to teach this martial art so it was forgotten and you can only see some of it in Hassidic dance moves.

Why didn't Jews assimilate?
First of all, the Jewish religion, in order for your kids to be Jewish you need to marry a Jewish woman, if the mother isn't Jewish the baby isn't Jewish.
In addition, Jews can't pray alone, they need to have 11 other people with them, because of that Jews had to live together.

The second thing is YOU, well not you in person but the Goyim, they caused us to stay Jewish because they made us hate them and their countries thanks to their laws and the way they acted.
Also, all kind of diseases like small pox that were caused by hygienic resons caused the Jews to believe that god is with them since they weren't hurt by these diseases while they annahilated a big part of europe.

Why some Jews are "more spanish" then you? Well I guess that they don't realy feel like spaniards so they want to prove you that they are.

Why do Jews come to Israel? Lets start with the term that is used for a Jew that immigrates to Israel, he's called Oleh, from the world Aliyaha whice means moving up. That doesn't mean that Jews believe that Israel is in the north, it means that for us only by comming here you go up the ranks in your sprituality.
The other thing is that NO JEW feels at home when he's out of Israel, it's very strange but you can feel that it's not your country and the nations you are living with aren't your own.

[S'13]

We spanish don´t neglect any crime in America, we conquered, we killed, we oblied to convert to catholicism 500 years ago, and we enslaved indians, why not? that were the things that people did time ago.


So I see that because this happend years ago it gives you an excuse not to acknowledge your nation's crimes? How convenient for you, though I could also find more recent facts that wouldn't shed good light on your country.


The jews expelled from Spain contributed with their cash to finance the sultan Soliman The Magnificent in the hot and the cold war against chrisitian europe. Thousands and thousands of spaniards were caught and sold as slaves in their villages by turks and berbers galleys frequently financed with cash of jews, and sent to Istambul or Algier, where wealthy jews gathered lots of money in all kinds of trade. Everybody could be a slave in that time, except the jews as I see.

I can see that even to today there are Spaniards with a mindseat befitting that of the Inquisition.
I guess you forgot to mention that there were Jew also financing the Spanish monarchy and that its debts were wiped when the noteholders were condemned in court, this motive was probably as valid and strong as the religious and cultural motives.

As for how Jews lived in Spain under Christian rule, they more less lived like cultural slaves and didn't have basic freedoms.


The conquest of America was strongly discussed at the time at home both in the court and in the universities, and the doctrine elaborated by spanish scholars(Menchaca, Francisco de Vitoria, Francisco Suárez and others)

And I do know that Francisco de Vitoria justified Spanish colonialism in America and the way the natives were treated.


Many conquistadores were sent to the jail, and there´s some relation with their behavior with the indians.

There's a limit to how much BS you can try to to provide me with.


You didn´t exterminate today palestinians because the world wouldn´t tolerate you to do it. Enough said?

Or maybe unlike so many European nations we don't have this urge within us... and I think its hard for you to argue against that due to the fact that there are over a million Arabs in Israel who since its independence were given equal rights and weren't forced to adopt our culture.


It´s not a question of having 100% indian genes, in the moment you speak and think mainly in spanish, and you wear western clothes and live as a westerner, you aren´t considered an indian anymore but a "mestizo" even if all your ancestors are indians.

The defenition of Metizo is a person with mixed descent and even if your claim was true, it only further proves the scale of the cultural genocide that the natives went through.


Israelies, like arabs with their tribal mentality, dont understant the difference between culture and race. You have been conquered like us by Rome, but it seems you didnt learnt of them.

Well maybe you can adopt things from other cultures without having your own wiped out? Ever thought about that?

BTW, if you don't know jack s**t about my nation, don't make so many unfounded claimes with such confidence.

It's well known that Jews adopted certain aspect of Egyptian, Babylonian and Greek (Hellenistic synagogues for example) cultures throughout the years.
The best example is the Hebrew langauage that developed mostly out of Aramaic.


that´s not the stept of a genocide but the consequence of an invassion where invaders melted with the invaded people

Yeah, by forcing upon them your religion and culture. :roll:


We were taught by Rome, contrary to jews that didnt learn anything good of Rome

Gee, you are right, we should have learnt how to carry out cultural genocide (after all, it's such a good thing).
BTW, Romans usually provided freedom of worship and enabled other peoples to have their own culture while only trying to get the other peoples assimilated into their so society, so don't try to force feed this s***.


It is your problem, as jews, that you don´t melt with people, if you´re majority then you exclude the non jews people around you, but if you´re a minority you ask for tolerance to other people.

If we are majority? You mean in Israel, right? Since it's the only place in the world where we are a majority... Arabs and others (who hold Israeli citizenship) in Israel have the same rights as any Jew and that includes their right to have their own culture.


You wouldnt considerate as a jew an indian that had only a jew grandgrandgrandparent.

We consider people of African origin whose ancestors converted to Judisam to be Jews, and over 68,000 of them came to Israel, so your hypothesis kind of goes down the drain.


You and us are different, that´s all.

Yeah, you guys conquered south and cetral America by using cultural genocide while we built a Jewish national homeland with a society that enables even those who aren't Jews and living within it to practice their own culture and religion.


And about Melilla, that´s spanish soil way before Mahoma was born

rofl

I can say the same about the Gaza Strip, West Bank, Jordan, parts of Syria and Iraq (after all it was a part of the Judean Kingdom) :cantbeli:



and if I were a jew, I wouldn´t talk too much about spanish

Well your not, so... ;)


I wouldn´t talk too much about spanish stealing that piece of land to Marroq.

Sorry but it's kind of hard not to do so when looking at the map.


In Marroq, in fact, there were jews since the time of the Roman Empire, many of the jews expelled from Spain in 1492 stablished in Marroq and lived there until the beginning of the XX century, when Spain occupied the north of Marroq (not Ceuta and Melilla). The berbers, of course, fougth hardly agaisnt spanish soldiers, not the jews that lived in cities like Xauen or Tetuan, that prefered living and doing good deals with the newcomers, and even going to live to the "occupied" Ceuta, Melilla or even the same Spain.

Well I find it hard to believe that a person holding the Demi status could have gone to fight even if he wanted to.

BTW, Hitler like you would claim that in WW1 Jews were getting rich while Germans were dying on the front, of course the fact that over 100,000 Jews died in the service of Germany didn't change that and also the fact that a Jewish commander was the one who awarded him with the Iron Cross.


Jews in Spain like the fence of Melilla, are they wrong or right?

They are right because it is for their best interests. The reason that the Melilla barrier was brought up was in order to give you a little bit more insight and to look at yoursleves before you talk about others.

[S'13]

I'm not talking about the Barcelona manual, i was just talking about UoUo, his attitude and the attitude of many others.


I don't think UoUo is trying to suppress the fact that other groups were targeted by the Nazis, and he's well aware of this.
You can assert that he and others aren't giving enough attention to the other aspects, but to say that they completely ignore this seems far fetched to me.


To clarify things, i'm caomplaining about the use some jews do of the holocaust, the manipulation and the double standards . I'm not talking about you. Of course there's the same situation in the non-jews side, of course there is anti-semitism, but in this particular thread i'm not discussing it. Everything comes from UoUo's posts which in my opinion are a great sample of those things i'm mentioning above.

I can see your point, though I do believe you are a bit exaggerating. :)

[alexz]

[quote]
To clarify things, i'm caomplaining about the use some jews do of the holocaust, the manipulation and the double standards.

Please explain the manipulation those long nosed, caniving Jews do of the
holocaust.

By turnning the victims into the murderes and villans the europeans
are clansing themselvs of responsiblities of un imaginable crimes (which this generation has nothing to do with) that was commited on their soil. With this revision of history they can now act moraly superior and preach the rest of the world about their fake hypocritical liberalism and good intentions while letting down the people of Rwanda and now the Darfur region.

[Knutsen]

Please explain the manipulation those long nosed, caniving Jews do of the
holocaust.
If you haven't noticed yet, i'm not talking about jews as a whole. When you understand this, you'll start to understand my posts.


By turnning the victims into the murderes and villans the europeans
are clansing themselvs of responsiblities of un imaginable crimes (which this generation has nothing to do with) that was commited on their soil.
Who is turning victims into murderers???
Which europeans? When you learn history you'll realize that the responsibles for this genocide were the members of the NSDAP and allied parties.


With this revision of history they can now act moraly superior and preach the rest of the world about their fake hypocritical liberalism and good intentions while letting down the people of Rwanda and now the Darfur region.

I assume you're american.Then you should now your country did NOTHING in Rwanda and is doing NOTHING in Darfur (well, yues, an arms embargo is extremelly helpful in those conditions of famine).

[mi35d]

Wow! A thread that started out on one topic and morphed into a "You're a Nazi!" - "Noooo - You're a Nazi!" flame war. I bet this has NEVER happened before!

Forget the name of the internet "rule" about how many steps until someone calls the other a Nazi.

This thread degenerated to that level pretty darn quick. Might be a new record! Wait...I may have some here. I'm off to make a post!

[Loco]

Wow! A thread that started out on one topic and morphed into a "You're a Nazi!" - "Noooo - You're a Nazi!" flame war. I bet this has NEVER happened before!

Forget the name of the internet "rule" about how many steps until someone calls the other a Nazi.

This thread degenerated to that level pretty darn quick. Might be a new record! Wait...I may have some here. I'm off to make a post!
I´m sorry, I´m just having a cup of coffee and haven´t enough time. I see your point, and I´ve read many times before almost the same thread, one side are always israelis, and the opposite side are usually germans, poles, frenchs, everybody that have ever dealt with jews. I doesn´t matter that yesterday and today there can be the same quota of jew-haters in USA than in Europe, isrealies here and now won´t blame USA because it´s more easy and more convenient to them to blame the little ones. Regarding us, the spaniards, I only say to israelies that Spain is the holy land, our holy land and as we say in Spain, I don´t have hair in the tongue to defend myself or my people. We do not have to stand a hoolygan wearing the clothes of ambassador just because his isreali, is it clear??? We don´t have to ask any perdon to any jew in the earth, I don´t care what isreaelis say or write about Spain in Israel, but I care a lot about what isrealies say in Spain or do about Spain. We can live without them, but if they like to talk about spanish or other people saying we all are europeans and we all are guilty of I don´t know what, then I´ll remember isrealies that they certainly can´t live without Europe, USA gives them their military muscle, but we give them nor less than the half of their commercial trade an some other things, and I´ll say too that if spanish state didn´t recognized officially Israel State until 20 years ago, it was only because of the pressure of other european countries they like to insult that pressured over Spain if we wanted to join EU. Isrealies need to learn that people don´t like be snapped and spit in the face without response, at least in the case of spanish.
Ariel Sharon is a corrupt criminal and a terrorist, he´s as bad as was Yasser Arafat, that´s my opinion and if anybody doesn´t like my opinion, I respect him, but I won´t change. The fence in Melilla is not of barbed wire or concret, is only wire, we don´t shoot inmigrants(usually subsaharians, not marroqis) that try to jump over the fence, the Melilla fence is built just in spanish territory so we didn´t stole an inch of foreing land to built that fence, the fence was built in internationally recognized frontier, and we built that fence oblied by the UE to monitorize the wave of inmigrants that not only try to reach spanish shores but France, GB, Netherland, etc. So comparing the Melilla fence with the wall built up in Cisjordania expelling people of their land and occupying a 20% of foreing land by the same people that is stealing land in Gaza and the same Cisjordania is an insult to intelligence. Period.
Sooner I´ll talk about Francisco de Vitoria.

[S'13]

I doesn´t matter that yesterday and today there can be the same quota of jew-haters in USA than in Europe, isrealies here and now won´t blame USA because it´s more easy and more convenient to them to blame the little ones.

Or maybe it's simply because we only see cases of state sponsored incitment against Israel coming from European countries.


and I´ll say too that if spanish state didn´t recognized officially Israel State until 20 years ago, it was only because of the pressure of other european countries they like to insult that pressured over Spain if we wanted to join EU

rofl

Yeah it didn't have anything to do with the Franco regime and the fact that Europe and Israel didn't want anything to do with your country. Boy... looking at some parts of your country's history, it's amazing that you can feel that you can preach morals and present your country as a positive example.

And you are right, it is an insult to human intelligence to compare your barrier to ours as we are building a barrier that will (and already has) saved lives while yours was built in order to protect economic interests.

[alexz]

[quote] If you haven't noticed yet, i'm not talking about jews as a whole. When you understand this, you'll start to understand my posts.


O.K. Which Jews are you talking about? and what holocaust manipulation
"that group" is doing. I just can't believe the amount of hate that
still exist in Europe towards the Jews (and now towards Israel) in the
21 century.



Who is turning victims into murderers???
Which europeans? When you learn history you'll realize that the responsibles for this genocide were the members of the NSDAP and allied parties .

Only members of NSDAP took part in the genocide?
I think the Imams in Gaza teach more accurate view of History
than they teach in europe. the polish, Ukrenian lativian that guarded
and did most of the killings were members of the NSDAP too?





I assume you're american.Then you should now your country did NOTHING in Rwanda and is doing NOTHING in Darfur (well, yues, an arms embargo is extremelly helpful in those conditions of famine).

Now you are becoming a streotypical european hypocrate.
Hundreads of years of european rule, rape and pillage of Africa and
the murder of millions (read the book called heart of darkness) and
it's the US that should clean your doings? And it was the French and
belgium that were already in Rwanda when all hell broke loss; what
did they do to stop the horrors that took place right infront of their eyes?