Confidence firing

[Pulsar]

Part of Philippine Army Scout Ranger training. Iron sights only, operator has to shoot two water bags at both ends of a short stick held by his buddy. The shooter then chnage places with the 'target'.

http://www.geocities.com/getflipzi/dropbox/Confidence-Firing.jpg
Confidence firing is a good measure of team integrity, if one does not trust an SR candidate as his confidence firing buddy, then there must be an issue with persons involved. It can either be his training, skill level, his attitude or his trustworthiness. Confidence Firing is a brutal method of letting these issues out in the open. It allows the training NCOs to have a sneak peek of the dynamics within a set of SR candidates. It usually is a good exercise to select mentally weaker candidates.

[Marmot1]

LOL.. how many of them fail this test?

[dacanadianbomb]

How many hands have holes in them ?

[Stavka]

Cool ****. Dont do this under the influence of alcohol though...

[bluffcove]

Forget trusting each other trust the guy that Zeroes the rifle!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Frens]

good test..weird but good/useful

[Pulsar]

a few accidents do happen but SR candidates actually are veteran infantrymen and all are marksmen...it is interesting to note that American Special Forces who came to visit were scared ****less and not one volunteered to try the concept even with their scoped M4s.

[Herrmannek]

a few accidents do happen but SR candidates actually are veteran infantrymen and all are marksmen...it is interesting to note that American Special Forces who came to visit were scared ****less and not one volunteered to try the concept even with their scoped M4s.
common sense prevailed :)

[bluffcove]

a few accidents do happen but SR candidates actually are veteran infantrymen and all are marksmen...it is interesting to note that American Special Forces who came to visit were scared ****less and not one volunteered to try the concept even with their scoped M4s.
common sense prevailed :)

What, not letting an american discharge a weapon near you?
His words not mine!!!!

[fantassin]

http://www.gign.org/images/dossiers/30ans/g-tir-confiance.jpg

http://www.gign.org/images/dossiers/30ans/g-tir-confiance-4.jpg

The French GIGN has done confidence shooting for years.

[Doomsayer]

awesome

but the Philipines are more badass than the french because they dont wear bodyarmor ;)

[Scottie]

^^^****..
id like to see a vid!!?!?!

[fantassin]

http://www.gign.org/images/dossiers/30ans/g-tir-confiance-3.jpg

The shooter and the target

[Scottie]

nice fantassin.

ye im sure the confidence and mainly trust between operatives is high..

[Pook2]

It's stupid IMO, there are plenty of other ways to learn to trust your teammates, and the risks of that type of thing outweigh the benfits IMO, just one flaw with the weapon or shooter and there could be serious consequences.

[fantassin]

nice fantassin.

ye im sure the confidence and mainly trust between operatives is high..

Yes, the GIGN has proved time and again in operational situations that their shooting skills were superb.

[Loke]

No matter how skilled you are with a firearm, you may get faulty ammo or other technical anomalies that will kill your fellow operative.
That's why anyone in their right mind would never do this.
Totally middle ages!

[bluffcove]

If it was safe then there would be no trust involved would there, How else do you want to build trust, if the stakes arent high then the gain isnt as great. Dont want a pissing war with anyone but isnt this exactly what the fabled "killing house" in Hereford is all about?

[Mahoro]

If those are rubber- bullet (is that what it called?)
then is fine :)

But come on, an assult rife w/ no scope and that water bag is beside his teammate's hand... :-*$

From that distance, is easy to kill your teammate by a slight aimming error. :cantbeli:

[LibertyUnites]

i think it would be awesome if you could assure me 100% (which is impossible) that there is nothing wrong with the ammo / weapon my buddy was shooting with.... if what you said about most of them being expert marksman is true then at that distance its a sure thing... but one wrong round and...........

[MEGR]

Delta Force has been doing this since its beginning I believe. One guy sits in a room, playing the hostage role, while his teammates storm the room with live ammunition and take out the terrorist-targets.

[Pook2]

If it was safe then there would be no trust involved would there, How else do you want to build trust, if the stakes arent high then the gain isnt as great. Dont want a pissing war with anyone but isnt this exactly what the fabled "killing house" in Hereford is all about?

There are plenty of other ways to develop trust.

[American Patriot]

It's safe. Just make sure you handload the ammo that your buddy will use to do this stunt.

Oh and I believe SEALs also do this type of thing in killhouses.

[fantassin]

It's safe. Just make sure you handload the ammo that your buddy will use to do this stunt.

Oh and I believe SEALs also do this type of thing in killhouses.

IIRC, GIGN uses .38 special wadcutter.

[Khabbi]

Theres a picture of Princess Diana and Prince Charles in a killhouse with SAS storming in and firing at paper targets

dont feel like finding it now though :P

[Blanke]

Theres a picture of Princess Diana and Prince Charles in a killhouse with SAS storming in and firing at paper targets

dont feel like finding it now though :P

I once read that during the Reagan administration VP George H W Bush wanted to participate in a live fire hostage rescue drill with Delta Force, with him as the hostage. As I recall the Delta Force personnel were quite confident in their abilities (you figured they would have to be if they were going to do it for real with a VIP as a hostage), and had no problem with this. The Secret Service, however, forbade it and they ended up having Bush in a clear bullet proof box with a couple of secret service guards at the ready.

[Pulsar]

No matter how skilled you are with a firearm, you may get faulty ammo or other technical anomalies that will kill your fellow operative.
That's why anyone in their right mind would never do this.
Totally middle ages!

Well each Special Forces unit has its own quirks and peculiarities, this has been a regular component of PASR training since the 1950s.

[Levan]

Let me tell you, this exercise is stupid. because it is totally unsafe and only third world countries like Philippines or France can use this trick for "training". :D
seriously, you dont need to practice such danger ****. its useless and stupid.

Russian elite police forces practice shooting to kevlar shields from very close range but minimal safe requirements are met and I think such exercise is useful to fight fear against bum bang aimed at you)) but again such exercise can be dangerous but should not be hazardous.

IMHO stupid staff.

I once read that during the Reagan administration VP George H W Bush wanted to participate in a live fire hostage rescue drill with Delta Force, with him as the hostage. As I recall the Delta Force personnel were quite confident in their abilities (you figured they would have to be if they were going to do it for real with a VIP as a hostage), and had no problem with this. The Secret Service, however, forbade it and they ended up having Bush in a clear bullet proof box with a couple of secret service guards at the ready.

Even Special Forces soldiers can hate the president. You never know what stunt they pull out.

Let me tell you, this exercise is stupid. because it is totally unsafe and only third world countries like Philippines or France can use this trick for "training".
seriously, you dont need to practice such danger ****. its useless and stupid.

Russian elite police forces practice shooting to kevlar shields from very close range but minimal safe requirements are met and I think such exercise is useful to fight fear against bum bang aimed at you)) but again such exercise can be dangerous but should not be hazardous.

IMHO stupid staff.


Have you ever fired at someone? Do you know how it feels or do you know how shaky you go? shooting near your troopers is very good training. No wonder why SPECIAL forces use this kind of simulation, because it helps maintain calm, get use to it kind of thing.

[bluffcove]

Bearing in mind how many shakes a bloke is going to get when in his section comes under enemy fire, is the reference to shakes in this even comparable?

Squeezing off one round from the ****e position at a stationary target thats not shooting back doesnt sound to me as dangerous as say.... Going to war which is what these guys are training to do.

There might be better ways to build trust, but as a means of demonstrating it and exercising it I dont see why it is so bad. Bad round? at the ranges shown I dont imagine a bad round is going to go madly awry!

Is their any record of a casualty being taken in this exercise.
they are soldiers, if they cant be relied on to hit a target at that range... well! And part of being a soldier is getting shot at, at least the guy with the weapon isnt trying to kill you!!

[Inconnu]

It's stupid IMO, there are plenty of other ways to learn to trust your teammates, and the risks of that type of thing outweigh the benfits IMO, just one flaw with the weapon or shooter and there could be serious consequences.

the GIGN is the professional one and it is best the troop of police elite woot

[Flukeman]

What about live fire shoot 'n' scoot drills, live fire advance to contact drills etc etc would all you armchair commandos say they were stupid training methods ?

[2RHPZ]

It is common practise for most of the CT units. It boost up morale indeed.

[supercontra]

It's close range, marksman ****e and a plastic bag is quite a large target. You'd have to be quite a bit off to hit your buddy.

[bluffcove]

So half the guys that have answered this thread like guns like looking at guns talking about guns. and being armchair heroes but are scared of being near one when it is aimed and discharged by a trained killer trusted by his government to be a resposnbile armed individual?

Well that pretty much sorts the WALTS from the men doesnt it!

[Flukeman]

So half the guys that have answered this thread like guns like looking at guns talking about guns. and being armchair heroes but are scared of being near one when it is aimed and discharged by a trained killer trusted by his government to be a resposnbile armed individual?

Well that pretty much sorts the WALTS from the men doesnt it!

Well said sir.

[Pook2]

So half the guys that have answered this thread like guns like looking at guns talking about guns. and being armchair heroes but are scared of being near one when it is aimed and discharged by a trained killer trusted by his government to be a resposnbile armed individual?

Well that pretty much sorts the WALTS from the men doesnt it!


I like guns but I am a safety nut, and I never advocate taking uneccessary risks.

[Raistlin]

I think you take an unecessary risk each time you pick a weapon of risk ;)

[Pook2]

I think you take an unecessary risk each time you pick a weapon of risk ;)

I think you think you're smart.

[Raistlin]

I think you're wrong.

No, seriously, people take lots of risks which are really unecessary. For example, is it really necessary to drive in a car (most of the time one can drive a horse)? No. But it's pretty damn convenient even though it increases the risk of being damaged A LOT.

Same with confidence firing. Maybe it's just so damn effective that the risk is justifiable?

[soma]

If it was safe then there would be no trust involved would there, How else do you want to build trust, if the stakes arent high then the gain isnt as great. Dont want a pissing war with anyone but isnt this exactly what the fabled "killing house" in Hereford is all about?

There are plenty of other ways to develop trust.

Yeah like sucking off a buddy and telling him not to tell anyone.

[bubkusjones]

I think you're wrong.

No, seriously, people take lots of risks which are really unecessary. For example, is it really necessary to drive in a car (most of the time one can drive a horse)? No. But it's pretty damn convenient even though it increases the risk of being damaged A LOT.

Same with confidence firing. Maybe it's just so damn effective that the risk is justifiable?

Umm, I don't know where you live, but I'm pretty sure it's against the law for anyone aside from Police Officers assigned to horse units to ride a horse in my city (and I would believe this to be true for most cities). :roll:

[Delta Niner]

Let me tell you, this exercise is stupid. because it is totally unsafe and only third world countries like Philippines or France can use this trick for "training". :D
seriously, you dont need to practice such danger ****. its useless and stupid.

Russian elite police forces practice shooting to kevlar shields from very close range but minimal safe requirements are met and I think such exercise is useful to fight fear against bum bang aimed at you)) but again such exercise can be dangerous but should not be hazardous.

IMHO stupid staff.

Just because you can't hack it, does not mean it is stupid. Stupid.

France is not a third world country.

Those Scout Rangers are the best soldier that we have, they do a very real, very dangerous and very hazardous duty. If they wanted to have a safe job they could have had a regular shift at the office and they would not have volunteered themselves to that unit. Do you understand? :bash:

[Delta Niner]

It's stupid IMO, there are plenty of other ways to learn to trust your teammates, and the risks of that type of thing outweigh the benfits IMO, just one flaw with the weapon or shooter and there could be serious consequences.

In a cohesive combat unit/team trust should run both ways. In the Scout Rangers buddy system is the norm. You can't even piss without your buddy. You just don't just train together, you literally do everything together and the bond that you develop runs a deeper meaning than any relationship that you had before or after.

It might be stupid to you but to them it is like earning their master's degree in combat proficiency, the hard way.

[JTAR7242]

a few accidents do happen but SR candidates actually are veteran infantrymen and all are marksmen...it is interesting to note that American Special Forces who came to visit were scared ****less and not one volunteered to try the concept even with their scoped M4s.
common sense prevailed :)
Scared ****less? Or perhaps simply unwilling to participate in such a pointlessly dangerous exercise (or it is entirely possible that American brass wouldn't allow it)?

[JTAR7242]

I think you're wrong.

No, seriously, people take lots of risks which are really unecessary. For example, is it really necessary to drive in a car (most of the time one can drive a horse)? No. But it's pretty damn convenient even though it increases the risk of being damaged A LOT.

Worst analogy... ever.

[Delta Niner]

a few accidents do happen but SR candidates actually are veteran infantrymen and all are marksmen...it is interesting to note that American Special Forces who came to visit were scared ****less and not one volunteered to try the concept even with their scoped M4s.
common sense prevailed :)
Scared ****less? Or perhaps simply unwilling to participate in such a pointlessly dangerous exercise (or it is entirely possible that American brass wouldn't allow it)?

Guess "scared ****less" is too demeaning.

Pulsar, bro. perhaps you could change "scared ****less" to just "scared". :lol:

[bluffcove]

These guys are soldiers, of course they take risks! and you are saying they should learn not to take them! WTF?

The first time a bullet whizzes past your hand I should imagine its a bit of a thrill a kick an adrenaline rush a buzz a contracting of your sphincter and a release of your bowels.


Now that can either happen when you are holding a plastic bag stood in a field when the guy with the gun doesnt wnt to hit you....
OR
It can happen when the next bullets going to have corrected for windage, your mate is screaming something about a grenade, your 2ic is saying something about a fat arse and moving it, the bloke next door to you jsut lost his face and a healthy portion of lung and at the same time your trying to find where the little bastard is thats shooting you,

Personally if I was training to go to war I would want to be sure that my lads were fairly "au fait" With the idea of hot lead whipping round them.

Secondly


The first time you discharge your weapon close to your mate can either be in your own time when you can get comfortable and ****e take an aimed shot and pop one off at a harmless plastic bag that is no threat to anyone,
Or
You can be asked to lay down covering fire directly over the heads of your mates as they either advance or retreat along an enfillade.

yet again Id prefer that the bloke firing over my head was "au fait" with firing near me and wasnt likely to A either hit me, or be so scared of hitting me that his covering fire is withering to say the least.

How would I know which sort of guys I was working with?
training - though clearly training is dangerous so should never be done and these experiences are best met first time out, up close and personal under hostile fire!

SHUT UP

are you scared of the Filipino Scout Rangers now? I remember I watched a program in a Filipino channel called MGB (Magandang Gabi Bayan) by Noli De Castro- now the Vice president of the Philippines, they were saying that one Scout Ranger Platoon was on Training NEXT to a Rebel position, I think they do SEAR in the REAL WAY, guess what happened?

Scout Troopers did not have any weapons with them and I think 3 of them got unlucky and was tortured and killed. The skeleton where recovered later on and forensics believe that they're eyes were suck out by a sharp material and rebels took it as a souvenir.

[crinkler]

a few accidents do happen but SR candidates actually are veteran infantrymen and all are marksmen...it is interesting to note that American Special Forces who came to visit were scared ****less and not one volunteered to try the concept even with their scoped M4s.
common sense prevailed :)
Scared ****less? Or perhaps simply unwilling to participate in such a pointlessly dangerous exercise (or it is entirely possible that American brass wouldn't allow it)?

Guess "scared ****less" is too demeaning.

Pulsar, bro. perhaps you could change "scared ****less" to just "scared". :lol:I find it unlikely a few American trained SF's would be scared to take a few shots at SR camdidates.

I am going to go with they felt it was pointless. :|

[Flukeman]

Or perhaps simply unwilling to participate in such a pointlessly dangerous exercise ?

Then should you join the military you won't last long as training involves Live fire and movement.

This topic as Bluffcove mentioned, sorts out the posters , there are 2 types here those who have never been in the military and think it's stupid and those who have been in the Military and can see why it's done and the benefits.

Pointless? Well everyone has a stand, but I will go with this training being very effective for muscle memory training. :slap:

[Flukeman]

I find it unlikely a few American trained SF's would be scared to take a few shots at SR camdidates.

I am going to go with they felt it was pointless.

I'll go with not quite the marksmen they think they are.

[Pulsar]

a few accidents do happen but SR candidates actually are veteran infantrymen and all are marksmen...it is interesting to note that American Special Forces who came to visit were scared ****less and not one volunteered to try the concept even with their scoped M4s.
common sense prevailed :)
Scared ****less? Or perhaps simply unwilling to participate in such a pointlessly dangerous exercise (or it is entirely possible that American brass wouldn't allow it)?

Guess "scared ****less" is too demeaning.

Pulsar, bro. perhaps you could change "scared ****less" to just "scared". :lol:

Ummm maybe but I actually saw a few of them blanch when politely offered to try the method.

They probably have not tried this during their training or they're not just confident with their buddies at the time, two or three wanted to be the shooter but not one volunteered to be the target holder.

[Delta Niner]

a few accidents do happen but SR candidates actually are veteran infantrymen and all are marksmen...it is interesting to note that American Special Forces who came to visit were scared ****less and not one volunteered to try the concept even with their scoped M4s.
common sense prevailed :)
Scared ****less? Or perhaps simply unwilling to participate in such a pointlessly dangerous exercise (or it is entirely possible that American brass wouldn't allow it)?

Guess "scared ****less" is too demeaning.

Pulsar, bro. perhaps you could change "scared ****less" to just "scared". :lol:I find it unlikely a few American trained SF's would be scared to take a few shots at SR camdidates.

I am going to go with they felt it was pointless. :|

After taking your shot/shots and your buddy is not hurt, it will be your turn to be the holder of the plastic waterbag.

[bluffcove]

pah - pussies. Hot lead only hurts when it hits you!
unless of course these SF guys dont trust their mates with weapons!

now then why do the US troops always wear their lids? = is their a correlation?

[Pook2]

This thread isnt even worth arguing anymore since the only aim of most of you in here is to sit around and bash on americans.

[bluffcove]

This thread isnt even worth arguing anymore since the only aim of most of you in here is to sit around and bash on americans.

was it meant to be an argument?
We were discussing the merits of confidence firing as a confidence and trust developing nad testing practice, and american said their guys had shied from it.

I didnt see an argument, though I do wonder why all the Americans in Iraq wear permanent head cover? when other forces out there get by just fine without.

[Half Pint]

I don't agree that American SFs were "scared ****less" when they were offered to do the same exercise..I think this was back at Camp Tecson in San Miguel Bulacan. this was the story i heard from one "Musang" (****ounced moo-sung), panther in Filipino. What i heard was that they just curtly turned-down the offer, period. I, even the SRs (Scout rangers) present will never know why, to be honest, unless they or I can read their minds. So i guess we should end that issue here.

But i don't agree that such exercise is stupid, pointless to find another term. I agree with what Delta Niner said. SR trainors used that form of training so that SR candidates can still fire and hit their targets even when their adrenalin is pumping high (i'm quite sure it's nerve racking for both the shooters and the guys standing at the range). That method is alot safer back then when in the mid-80s the guys who stand there hold the water balloons chest high! Another thing, it is obvious that those rifles were zeroed first before they were used on such exercises, otherwise the whole exercise is..pointless. SR training is one of the toughest training in the Phil Armed Forces. It was and is meant to be hard the first time around, since the only reason one volunteered to be a scout ranger is to go to war, period. All training exercises undergo a series of evaluation, and they will never retain or put that in the training regimen if the training cadres (who, btw, are all combat veterans) think it will not help the candidate in doing their jobs. And American SFs do learn some tricks form them too. SRs adopted the American MOUT/CQB doctrine and TTPs, while the Americans learned and probably adopted some of our jungle doctrines and TTPs (no offense intended, but SRs found that the American SF and Ranger doctrine is not generally applicable here in the Phils.), one example is the essence of travelling light in a hot, humid jungle. some SRs who were accompanied by US SF in Mindanao, were not used to the pace of the Americans, bec. SOME had difficulty moving due to all the gears the Americans were lugging. One SR section ended up recalling one fire team just to carry the Satcom and the other gears the US SF were carrying back then so they can move faster. But this doesn't mean that the US SFs were not that "good," it's just that they were not used to our climate and probably so are if ever we go and do some training exercises in your very cold climate.

Lastly, no SR candidate can graduate without finishing the Combat Mission Phase. It runs from a month up to 2 months, and is intentionally held in rebel-infested areas. Enemy contact is a must and each SR class has a standing tradition to outclass the previous class. :)

Peace to everyone!!!
:D

[PhillyMobster]

I guess to a certain extent that this confidence training is good, but it should only be undertaken by the most elite spec-ops units. I'm a safety Nazi, and if I see a person walking around with something as harmless as an airsoft springer rifle, and they have their finger on the trigger, I'll chew them out. When it comes to real guns, you BETTER observe correct safety when I'm around, or I'll probably try to lay you out. (I say try, because I might not be able to... ;) ) So, naturally, it goes against all my instincts to put someone downrange from a guy with live ammunition. It just seems stupid, like the skateboarders who jump off houses to show how brave they are. Just my $0.02.

[WARPIG]

Funny how all the virtual tuff guys here are using phrases like "armchair commando" to describe people who don't see the need to have d1ck measureing contests.

Shooting at plastic bags, body armor, or friggin apples of of each others head is just that... d1ck measuring contests.

Why would the SF option to not whip their members out? Fear? Ever run with the SF? Heck, drink a beer with an SF operator and I guarantee that fear is not a word you would use to describe them.

If my peer needs to prove his trust in me by letting me shoot at him, we don't really know each other do we?

If I want to know how good a shot my partner is, I can look over and count the holes in the "5" box.

This kind of "training" is a dumbass move. Plain and simple. A real professional doesn't need to prove it to his peers.

[California Joe]

Hiya PIG.

Whatever happened to just getting ****faced with your team and starting a bar fight with a bunch of locals?

Confidence firing: It's funny till someone loses an eye.

Another point that is actually relevant, the US Government does not expend ****loads of time and money training elite units just so someone from their own unit can shoot at them.

"Scared ****less" isn't a term I've ever heard associated with SF guys. But I'm sure one of you ninjas would say that in a bar in Little Creek VA right?

[bluffcove]

I think it might have more to do with trusting yourself to shoot near your mate, Discovering your limits not theirs.

I would like to think Id do it, In fact given I rifle I think I would I guess you dont know till you are offered, but I think its more of a test for the guy with the gun. He after all takes the risk of hitting his mate, and can only rely on his own expertise, whereas the target, delegates the reponsbility elsewhere and is an inanimate part of the drill.

[Miles.]

I'm going to chip in here...I would be scared ****less. I'm not going to say whether the exercise is pointless, because I simply don't know. But how many of you really would be scared? I know for certain I would be deathly scared.
Everytime a round is chambered, whether by me or my buddy, my focus is raised through the roof. And I think to myself, "this is serious." So I am being completely honest...I would never willingly participate in this "confidence firing." Before you start calling me an American pussy, ask yourself, without the machismo, would you risk life or limb in such an exercise?

[bluffcove]

Exactly, None (?) of the guys here would be able to do it. If every armchair commando here was prepared to do these things then "SF" wouldnt be very "S" would it.

If you remove the machismo from it then no you probably wouldnt but one thing SF are rumoured to have is machismo, that is why it is curious for the readership to hear they didnt partake in what is ostensibly a show of bravado and courage above all else.

I would be happy to stand there whilst a trained professional took the shot! He is aming at the bag not me.

I dont know if I would be happy to trust my skills to shoot "at" my mate holding the bag!

[Half Pint]

Well just like what i said earlier, that form of exercise, just like any exercise or drill, should pass an evaluation from the board before it can be implemented to a training regimen. The confidence Firing course received its own share of flak back then, but the SR board and the training cadres found it very relevant in preparing would-be SRs for combat, thus it stayed in the program, but made it "safer" than the previous one used in the mid 80's i just described. Surely a lot would find it hard to understand the logic behind it, but again, it would've never passed the board if they found it irrelevant. Plain and simple.

Cheers!

[Raistlin]

It's funny to see here two teams of "experts" calling each other names. One team says that the training is crucial and the americans were just scared. The other team says that the training has no use at all, in fact, it's plain silly and that's why the americans didn't do it.

[bluffcove]

Go and read the entire thread again! the Americans do an exact copy of this exercise as part of SF training supposedly in their killing house.

I have not claimed to be an expert, merely been amused seeing the gung-ho lot balk at this exercise