The future of Africa- is anyone paying attention?

[Trident-za]

http://iafrica.com/news/sa/292488.htm

I know that the Western media have been focusing on Iraq recently, but things are happening in Africa. It might not revolve around terrorism (or oil, for the cynical), but the consequences in terms of human deaths could be extreme. Can someone from a Western power help?


This week Zimbabwe's inflation surged to close to 620 percent, up from a previous figure of 526 percent. Employment is at around 70 percent and there are severe shortages of food facing half the country's 11.6 million people.



The scary thing, for me, is that South Africa is the only African country with any chance of surviving on an international scale, and yet our government chooses to join with the "losers".

[2Sheds_Jackson]

I'm not sure there's a fix for everything. There's only so much that others can help with. The problem has its roots in the rampant corruption imbedded in the various governments there. I don't know what could be "done" for them.

If you forgive their debt, they just take out more loans, which they won't repay. It's a temporary band-aid.

What the hell is it with these people? I know some areas don't have many natural resources - I can understand them being economically stressed. But other areas have no problem growing food. I mean, can you imagine what it would cost to build a car in Mozambique or Tanzania? Humanity evolved here...can't they figure out how to build refrigerators or military jets or glass eyeballs or something to get a little prosperity??

[duck]

Trident-za: I've read some articles on Mugabe hiring Chinese state-owned companies to do the farming in Zimbabwe as his "freedom fighters" do not seem to have much interest in the task? Is this true?

[Vance]

If you haven't noticed, we don't exactly have a good record with the Africans. I'd like for us to help but I'd really hate for this to become another Somalia.

[California Joe]

As Sam Kinison said....."You live in a f*cking desert, move to where the food is".

Seriously the death toll is already of monumental proportions and it seems like the world is just waiting for it to implode. Between genocide and AIDs it's amazing that there is any life on the continent. It's bizarre how little anyone cares but for a few relief workers and Bruce Willis in Tears of the Sun.

[budanski]

Speaking of willis. ;)
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6519

[California Joe]

Seen it. *Doing the black woman on Rikki Lake head thang*

[ChuckThunder]

http://iafrica.com/news/sa/292488.htm

I know that the Western media have been focusing on Iraq recently, but things are happening in Africa. It might not revolve around terrorism (or oil, for the cynical), but the consequences in terms of human deaths could be extreme. Can someone from a Western power help?


This week Zimbabwe's inflation surged to close to 620 percent, up from a previous figure of 526 percent. Employment is at around 70 percent and there are severe shortages of food facing half the country's 11.6 million people.



The scary thing, for me, is that South Africa is the only African country with any chance of surviving on an international scale, and yet our government chooses to join with the "losers".

I lived in Tanzania for four years (89-92), and what a **** hole it was. When I returned from being evacuated because of the 1st Gulf War there was an unexploded RPG in my front yard. :|

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Unfortuneatly until Diamonds power suv's nobodys really going to care about Africa. As long as theres still animals, and rainforests people are going to think Africa is a cheery place. The minute it turns into a giant terrorist ****storm waiting to happen is when the problems get fixed.

sad but true

[Saranof]

the main problem right now is AIDS. Now, this could be solved in a way- but the companys who have the patent for them mecicins won't give it away for a affordable price.

[Durandal]

Zimbabwe, what a mess...

This should be a lesson for racist dictators...

Do not take away the land the white land owners that are willing to properly run their farms and generate income for you to tax.

This problem was created. Not an accident at all.

And sad too...

What I want to know is, why are African countires that ARE prosperous...well relative to other African nations not helping. South Africa is a mess now. Rather than simply going on they are trying to punish the whites with reperations. Egypt and Lybia are sort of OK...any other nations?

How do you help an entire continent? Especially when it is already sort of getting a fair chunk of change? We are not talking about a single nation ...or a couple nations, we are talking about hte bulk of entire landmass.

*shudder*

[California Joe]

the main problem right now is AIDS. Now, this could be solved in a way- but the companys who have the patent for them mecicins won't give it away for a affordable price.

Or infected people could just stop f*cking constantly cause they're bored and hungry or out of kat or AK-47 shells.

[Trigger]

the main problem right now is AIDS. Now, this could be solved in a way- but the companys who have the patent for them mecicins won't give it away for a affordable price.

Or infected people could just stop f*cking constantly cause they're bored and hungry or out of kat or AK-47 shells.
Saranof has a point there Joe. It's simple. We just dump billions of dollars worth of Meds and food and stuff and they'll lay down their RPGs and stop the tribal genocide that's been going on forever and we'll all live happy productive lives.....





Naaaaaaaaaaaah. Too simple.

[Skaman]

the main problem right now is AIDS. Now, this could be solved in a way- but the companys who have the patent for them mecicins won't give it away for a affordable price.

Or infected people could just stop f*cking constantly cause they're bored and hungry or out of kat or AK-47 shells.


That is not the reason, you are wrong. Unlike North America, having more children provides a better economic future for your family. It is likely that 25% of your children will die, thus they need to have 5-7 offspring to work farms, sell their bodies through prostitution, and beg on the streets; the family must do this to survive. Africa needs jobs, only then will the need for large families be hindered, returning the population to a healthy static level that can meet the carrying capacity of the region. Unfortunately, jobs require education, a long and arduous process.

In turn, having more children spreads the epidemic of aids, additionally, producing more offspring than can be fed results in starvation. Homelessness and disease follow behind in a similar pattern. It is a vicious cycle.

[Shake n Bake]

Get white people back in power

[martinexsquaddie]

we did such a bang up job last time :roll:
Old europe did'nt exactly do a stand up job in africa before ww11 then left as quick as possible.
though arguably the CIA/KGB probably managed to kill more people through the various proxy war and mayhem they produced only because there were more people around to slaughter.
Then rich people turn round and say africa's a basketcase but don't want to look at the causes.
Fake nations cross tribal borders etc locals have no love of there country
weak goverments. corruption. etc

[Durandal]

the main problem right now is AIDS. Now, this could be solved in a way- but the companys who have the patent for them mecicins won't give it away for a affordable price.

Damn those capitalists. Making money off a product they spent MILLIONS researching.

Actually, AIDS is not the main problem it is a symptom. Africa's social and economic issues are the problems. When you have a polygamous, patriarchal uneducated society, AIDS spreads like wildfire.

[FallenAngel]

Actually, AIDS is not the main problem it is a symptom. Africa's social and economic issues are the problems. When you have a polygamous, patriarchal uneducated society, AIDS spreads like wildfire.

So there's alot of guys who like to f*ck and don't know about using a condom. Although, in my Poli Sci class we were reading about how rapes of young (I am talking pre-teens here) girls is on the rise because SOMEBODY seems to be spreading the word that *** with a virgin (rape in 99.9% of the cases) can cure AIDS. It's really sad. Something like 1/3 of girls in S. Africa have been raped or been through an attempted rape by the time they're 16 (I think that's right. My figures might be slightly off.)

It's a sad situation, but as someone above said, much of the strife is brought upon themselves.

[maw]

i think it's unproductive to generalize africa as being one big basket case, the situation in botswana is very different to the one in chad which in turn is very different to the one in cote de ivoire and so on. speaking as someone who's been there several times (going back to central africa end of febuary/beginning of march), i love the place.
regarding the article. it didn't say much. zimbabwe's situation will improve with the establishment of a democratic government. its citizens still remember what it was like to have an effective form of government. they'll go with it.
south africa is in relative turmoil because it is going through some dramatic changes. change causes chaos. change happens slowly in africa. i'll have an opinion about south africa in twenty years.
it's a complex place with more than its fair share of dynamics, don't be so quick to judge its people.

[Tane Angle]

Ok, I have to run in a minute, so I'll try and make it short.

The situation is a perfect recruiting ground for extremist groups. It's frighteningly similar to 1920s/30s Germany, and 1970s Iran.

The people don't know to use condoms because a certain religion, from the top down, has been teaching them that condoms and other contraceptives spread AIDS. That's where the money is needed, not just for antiretroviral drugs. The drugs only plug a leak that will still doom the ship. Education gets the ship into drydock. If the ship sinks, it takes the other ships, like North America and Europe, down with it, via terrorism and economic issues.

By the way, people do notice it, just no one really listens to them.

And remember, a certain head of state promised in his State of the Union Address $15 billion to fight AIDS in Africa. Now $15B isn't even enough, but at least it would be something. But because one of the NGOs fighting AIDS in Africa made a comment supporting condoms to prevent AIDS, in China, all the money was cut.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Yeti]

I say **** em. Look what they did to Liberia; ungoverned, corrupt, a jungle.. Look at Seirra Leone, look at Johanessburg, look at Somalia.. they **** everything up..

[Seiyuuki]

The fact that Africa is one huge continent with multiple countries and not one small easily fix country make the situation very complicated.

[Shadow]

Is there Oil in Africa? ;)

[Vance]

Why don't you send the Canadians in, since they can solve any issue.

[venture160]

well i just took a class on the developing economies and africa, and there a number of factors that are holding africa back
1. corrupt leaders - for example nigeria, many of the african leaders take the countries earnings and spend on fruitless things for their own purposes and hide the money overseas
2. mis drawn borders - there are so many ethnic groups that were split up after WWII for africa, and as a result countries trying to unite warring tribes have only run into more trouble
3. AIDS - it is destroying an entire generation, and taking away a valuable workforce that is invaluable for africa's future
4. Leader Country - Africa lacks a leader, one that sets a good example such as how the asian NICS or taiwain, south korea, hong kong etc have inspired growth in countries like vietnam, indonesia, malaysia etc. Africa doesn't have its own leader to follow.
4. With all this turmoil, leaders, work force, aids, insecurity, foreign companies have negelcted to invest in africa, or loan any money because they know these counties cannot pay them back, its only getting worse, and until an international effort is made to fix the problem of aids, its debt and get rid of corrupt leaders, a new economy with western investors that could bring much needed jobs and money to africa is never going to happen sadly.

[Durandal]

i think it's unproductive to generalize africa as being one big basket case, the situation in botswana is very different to the one in chad which in turn is very different to the one in cote de ivoire and so on. speaking as someone who's been there several times

Yeah, but these places can change for the worse when someone sneezes. They may be stable now, but the future?

[The Walrus]

I remember an interesting article in 'the economist' about this, it was mainly about how so called 'free-trade' made it impossible for home grown African industry to prosper.
Much of our (western) basic, foundation industry was developed in the 19th century under an insulated blanket that protected developing industries from foreign competition, thus the various sectors could spend more of the profits on improving output and expanding until they reached a stage when they could compete internationally.
Much of Africas countries became independent in the 20th century, and so they have to start from scratch to build a solid economic foundation, but unlike Britain/America in the 19th century, African countries can't insulate their developing industries because that would violate the new international trade laws, so each new enterprise is thrown in at the deep end with far more developed foreign multi-national companies which simply swallow up the many small budding companies and use Africa as a source of cheap manual labour with little (if any) union/environmental laws.

[Trident-za]

Walrus, very good post! And I'm afraid that you hit the nail on the head. Even if corruption were to stop, and the AIDS issue was solved, most of Africa would still be screwed. Face it, most African countries have very little in the way of electricity/running water compared to Europe/US - how are these countries going to "compete" with multi-billion dollar global corporations?

The most that the average African country can hope for is they can get enough stability going that the foreign companies will come "invest" (i.e. the multi-billion dollar companies can turn over enough of a profit to make it worth their while). This in turn means their own countrymen will earn enough of a salary to be able to buy food, while keeping the unemployment figures down. (as an aside, I don't think many western people grasp how difficult it is to "go get a job" in a country with no economic prospects, and hence no companies providing jobs)

African governments are then caught in a Catch-22. In order for this foreign investment to truly benefit their own countries (enough to be able to build power plants etc), they need to tax the foreign companies. As soon as that happens, the foreign companies leave, often crying "unfair! " or "corruption!" or "we are here to help you, why are you doing this to us?"

In the Darwinian world of capitalism, Africa is screwed. The playing field is not level, and the gap is getting bigger every year. (can any of you imagine a Somali company outcompeting Halliburton or Microsoft anytime soon?) The scary thing is the potential for a HUGE continent to become a HUGE breeding ground for fanatical terrorists who don't see any other way out....

P.S. Please note that I'm not a communist of anything like that. I'm not even a liberal :) The truth, though, is that the "African problem" is going to get worse and worse and worse..... AIDS and corruption play a part, sure. But they are also "symptoms" of a far bigger problem which can't be solved the traditional capitalist way.

[Trident-za]

I'd like to add that the issues my post above deals with are seperate from the issue of humanitarian abuses dealt out by Mugabe or various rebel groups (too many to mention).

Perhaps the sheer economic hopelessness faced by many African countries makes it easier for rebel groups and/or dictators to do what they do. I see many posts in this thread are "dismissive" of Africa, and to some extent with good reason. For example,


I say f*** em. Look what they did to Liberia; ungoverned, corrupt, a jungle

This has some vailidity. But, there are 2 things I'd like to add here. First, if you replaced the entire leadership of Liberia with Americans AND placed those new leaders with the SAME RESTRICTIONS the current leaders have, the situation would not improve very much in the next 30 years. It takes a lot of money to provide the necessary fixes (education/electricity/business etc etc), and its money that Liberia will never have or get.

The second point is that saying "f**k em" is a very short sighted view - Africa is a damn good place to breed terrorism, because at least 75% of the population lives in the kind of misery you cannot imagine.

As you know, I live in South Africa -which is actually remarkably well developed. We have cities, highways, computers etc etc. I've yet to meet a foreign visitor who isn't astounded by the quality of our freeways, for example. In short, South Africa has a chance of surviving intact, and even producing wealthy people legitimately. However, there are still thousands of South Africans who have NEVER been inside a motor vehicle. There are literally hundreds of thousand who have never seen a computer, and there are millions who don't have a telephone. A survey recently showed that nearly 80% of South Africas population has NEVER had a bank account....

If this is the "reality" for a well-developed African country, what is it like for others? Do you really think the avergae African country could solve this problem by competing on the world market?

I don't think there is a easy solution to the problem - I just know that ignoring the problem most definitely won't work. Getting rid of dictators like Mugabe would be a start, but no gaurantee.....

[Durandal]

South Africa's problems are a result of deliberately keeping a majority of the population in poverty.

[Trident-za]

Riiiiight.. I wonder why the ANC hasn't figured that out? Damn, and all this time the problem was really so simple to solve :roll:

Well, as quite possibly the African country with the best prospects for the future, we must be doing something right.....

Out of curiosity, you seem to have firmly fixed opinions on South Africa... have you been here? Do you know what the situation in South Africa actually is, or are you basing your opinions/comments purely on the US media reports?

P.S. I'm genuinely curious, NOT trying to yank your chain....

EDIT: who exactly is "deliberately" keeping the majority of the population in poverty?

[maw]

to answer some earlier questions:
is there oil in africa?
yup. nigeria is one of the leading oil producers, unfortunately the vast majority of the wealth is held by a very small percentage of the population. sound familiar?
recently oil production has led to a peace accord in sudan where the muslim tribes from the north were practising a type of ethnic cleansing against their christian and animist neighbors in the south. the southerners primarily the spla (led by an interesting man called john garang - a ft.benning grad) resisted (even had some assistance from the christians in action back in the 90's). in the last couple of years discovery of oil in the south has caused the north to re-evaluate its stance. the three main wells south of nuba are in production, however it will be interesting to see just how much of the wealth "flows" back to the south. lately it appears that the islamic government in khartoum has been up to it's old tricks in a western region called darfur, and there are now thousands of refugees coming over the border into chad.
here are couple of quick links:
http://www.sudanlostboys.com/
this second is a fair and objective assessment by a former ;) ;) nsw intel officer:
http://www.usainreview.com/2_3_Nuba_Mountain.htm

kenya is proof that in a general sense, a stable and productive african country can exist. ethiopia/abbysinia has good coffee but poor agricultural practises (almost everyone i met there was catholic!). somalia is a complete ****hole on account of the warlords tearing the place up and the west turning its back on the place. going through djibuti you'll bump into us marines at all the interesting places. i could go on.

one last thing i wanted to say, there was a post that mentioned that africa is a hotbed for terrorists (sure there are chechens and habbibi hardliners hanging around in khartoum), but as a general rule, the west has bought a TON of good will among the people (including muslims) in many parts of africa through its aid programs. the people there love americans and westerners, when you get out into the sticks, almost every other person has a story regarding how someones baby was saved with a vaccine shot or how some else was fed when they needed help. the west has done a lot of good in africa.
that's why when something likes this happens:
http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/0/cd05c8018c7aabbac1256db700472b87?OpenDocument
its a tragedy.

[German_American]

Personally besides the aids in South Africa I thought it was doing pretty good for itself being in Africa. Please dont call me a racest, but when I look at the situation when South Africa started kicking all the whites out of power and in my view becoming prejudice against whites thats when the country started going downhill. I hope South Africa does do well, they might be able to save the world from a terroist breeding ground by giving Africa some hope. Another point is, the argument that Africa has a lack of natural resources is a bunch of bull. Iceland barly has any and they are doing fine. People live very well there. One of the reasons may be a lot of people have a good education. I read somewhere kids in Iceland learn four languages while in high school. If we can even get better education in Africa that can be a start. Maybe im just a moron, I dont know just putting my 2 cents in.

[Vance]

I say f*** em. Look what they did to Liberia; ungoverned, corrupt, a jungle.. Look at Seirra Leone, look at Johanessburg, look at Somalia.. they f*** everything up..
And yet we go in there with good intentions; and this is why we don't pay attention to ****ing Africa anymore. So, **** Africa. You happy now?

[Trident-za]

Africa is not currently a hotbed of terrorism - but it certainly will be in the coming years (20 years +) if the situation continues to deteriorate.

Kenya is indeed starting to do quite well, after trying really hard for about 20 years to take itself back into the 15th century! My wife teaches a few Kenyan kids at University, and they are astounded that the ANC is attempting to try all the things the Kenyan government gave up on years ago. Some lessons have (hopefully) been learned though...

German American - South Africa is actually doing suprisingly well economically. Our currency has almost doubled in strength, relative to the $US, in the past 12 months. There is plenty of reason to be optimistic for the future, although there are many problems still to be resolved.

Yes, there is a lot of prejudice against non-black people in South Africa - its extremely difficult to get a job as a white male, for example, unless your "skills" are in short supply. This isn't necessarily a train smash, provided the jobs are going to qualified people. This, sadly, is not always the case. On the whole, though, I am optimistic about South Africa.... I'm not so optimistic for Africa as a whole though. :(

Africa is, by the way, one of the richest place on earth, in terms of "natural resources" - it's just tricky to get those resources out..... and those resources are often the cause of wars (e.g. diamonds in the Congo, Sierra Leone and Angola have claimed millions of lives).

[Trident-za]

And yet we go in there with good intentions; and this is why we don't pay attention to f*** Africa anymore. So, f*** Africa. You happy now?

Interesting comments. A question - good intentions for who? Africans, or capitilism (i.e. fight communism), or US big business? Controversial issue that :) How many times in the last 20 years has America "gone in" to Africa at all - with good intentions or otherwise? I wasn't aware of many situations at all - perhaps you could let me know? (this is not sarcasm, but a genuine request for info)

And who should be happy?

[German_American]

Good to hear for South Africa (not on the prejudice issue). I have a few questions. Do you think when South Africa is very prosperous that countries bordering South Africa will either want to be some what annexed by South Africa, or will South Africa have a huge immigration problem like many European nations and the United States has. With the natural resources if anyone wants to get something done I see no alternative except a European, American, or possibly Asian puppet govt to get the countries up and running. These dicators get nothing done, atleast with a puppet nation people will have more jobs and the country will have some economic growth. Maybe im wrong, maybe there are already puppet nations.

[German_American]

One thing the good old United States has done is give billions to help fight AIDS. President Bush signed a bill about a year ago giving billions to help fight AIDS. It might have been millions im not sure i just know its a lot of money. Its more money then Clinton gave in his whole 8 years. I don't think the US has done much in Africa in the 90s. Clinton always went there as a political gain and really got nothing done. Even those dumb movie stars like Richard Gear (cant spell his name) said that he did nothing. Sorry for all you Clinton fans I just think he is a commie so I take any chance I can get to make him look like the jackass he is.

[Trident-za]

South Africa already has a huge immigration problem - and this is causing a bit of trouble. Apart from the fact that a huge percentage of crime (especially drugs and prostitution) is allegedly run by "Nigerian crimelords", the average black South African hates black foreigners with a passion you would not believe. It is actually a huge problem at Universities where non-South African black students are either ignored completely, or activily intimidated.... they see these foreigners as coming to steal their jobs.

I very much doubt that any "annexing" will happen. Although, we are getting an awful lot of immigrants from Zimbabwe and Mozambique.

[Shake n Bake]

And yet we go in there with good intentions; and this is why we don't pay attention to f*** Africa anymore. So, f*** Africa. You happy now?

Interesting comments. A question - good intentions for who? Africans, or capitilism (i.e. fight communism), or US big business? Controversial issue that :) How many times in the last 20 years has America "gone in" to Africa at all - with good intentions or otherwise? I wasn't aware of many situations at all - perhaps you could let me know? (this is not sarcasm, but a genuine request for info)

And who should be happy?


**** like in "Black hawk down" turns people off is what he means to say.

[German_American]

That really sucks. We have the same problem with Mexicans and middle eastern peoples. I have nothing against them I just wish they would come to my country legally like my ancestors did and stop causing all the crimes they do. Some of my Ancestors fought in the revolution (my last name is Adams, im also british). Your country isn't America tho so you guys shouldnt really have immigration. I don't blame the people of your country for hating those immigrants causing the crimes, its a shame you have to deal with that on top of the other problems. Does your govt do anything about it because I know mine doesn't they just let the illegals come in for some reason. Both of our political parties are to scared to put bunkers and machine gun posts on our border.

[Vance]

And yet we go in there with good intentions; and this is why we don't pay attention to f*** Africa anymore. So, f*** Africa. You happy now?

Interesting comments. A question - good intentions for who? Africans, or capitilism (i.e. fight communism), or US big business? Controversial issue that :) How many times in the last 20 years has America "gone in" to Africa at all - with good intentions or otherwise? I wasn't aware of many situations at all - perhaps you could let me know? (this is not sarcasm, but a genuine request for info)

And who should be happy?
Don't tell me Operation Restore Hope wasn't with good intentions...

[Trident-za]

Not saying that at all Vance - this was one operation, though and it lasted how long? What other American involvement has their been? I know a few US oil companies made an impact in Nigeria, although maybe not for the right reasons. There are still people who claim Nigeria was severely screwed by those companies. True or not, I don't know.

You guys have taken more casaulties in Iraq and Afghanistan - but you are still there. So why leave Africa after one bad day?

Anyway, I'm quite sure the US doesn't need to send troops to make a difference in Africa, although there are definitely places that would require it.

[Vance]

You guys have taken more casaulties in Iraq and Afghanistan - but you are still there.
That's because we don't have a pussy for a President.

[Trident-za]

:lol: OK, fair enough.

Well, I hope your badass president tries to help Africa out a bit when he is done with the middle east.

[German_American]

I love that statement Vance. Thats right we don't have a pussy for a president. We did for 8 years and he screwed us over.

[Durandal]

I'm genuinely curious, NOT trying to yank your chain....

EDIT: who exactly is "deliberately" keeping the majority of the population in poverty?

Ummm, just to check (and I am not trying to be an ass here) you do know (and I hope you do) that South Africa had forced segregation right? Minorities (not just blacks) were pretty much prohibited from advancing economicaly till about 1994. Since that ended, the country has seen an average of about 4% growth per year. Which is not bad. Much in the same way you saw a direct correlation to female workers in the United States vs. Federal economic growth.

Are blacks being deliberately kept out now? No, of course not. Things have changed since then.

South Africa does have a roughly 33% unemployment (this is among LEGAL immigrants and citizens of SA and does not include other illegal immigrants). The number ranges from 20% to 46% depending on what source you quote. Regardless of which number you choose to believe, unemployment is either pretty bad or really $hitty.

I had a chance to date a SA (white) woman for about six months. I met her parents and a couple friends. Her parents were from the old school Dutch/Boer. Needless to say they were wacked. They were major land owners and dealt in produce and sheep/livestock (beautiful farm I have to say regardless of their racism). They were pretty pissed about the whole reperation taxes that were palced on them. I do not know how much it is or if it still goes on today. I can only tell you what they told me.

Point is, they were pissed, right or wrong.

SA has an AIDs epidemic, immigration problems, massive rifts between minorities and the upper class whites...still, black on black crimes, and are surrounded by powderkeg nations waiting to explode or are in the process of imploding.

A great deal of the issues facing SA DO indeed originate in the inblance of personal freedoms and rights prior to 1994. While I never have supported socialism where a there is a more equal distribution of the wealth, there was deliberate control of the wealth in SA and that is problem the nation is STILL dealing with and will continue to deal with for the next century.

I guess my point is. relative to hsi thread is that South Africa is not all that stable (extremely stable compared to surrounding neighbors yes, but that is not a good litmus test) and they certainly do not have the GNP need to help kick start other African communities. They have to deal with their internal issues before helping out the rest of the continet and that will take some time.

Edit: Sorry I just made a one line comment without showiing you my thoughts on it and don't worry about trying to yank my chain...I have thick skin and love a "strong" discussion. ;)

[Trident-za]

Durandal, good response.

I hope you realize that Afrikaans people ar NOT representitive of the entire white community in South Africa. This might sounds kinda strange, but I'd not had much exposure to Afrikaans people until I got into the army - prior to that I'd gone to a multi-racial school and shared a dormintory with people of all races and religions. (this is in the 1980's). At that point I used to think the whole "racism thing" was a pile of crap made up by foreigners. Boy, was I shocked to find myself in an essentially Afrikaans community (the military at the time). I think I would have found an alien invasion less disorientating.

[those who have never had to live/work with Afrikaans people from the karoo (that farm you describe sounds like the karoo) will not understand the shock value]

Anyway, I can understand your point of view from that perspective. And yes, the consequences of apartheid will take generations to undo. An interesting fact though - as the South African economy has grown stronger over the last decade (the largest emerging "group" is the upper class black) the gap between rich and poor has grown :(

The reasons for this are numerous - the obvious being lack of education. This is a very serious issue, with unfortunate consequences for the economy. Unfortunately, quality of education is declining fast. The ANC is very mindful of their promises to educate the masses, but have discovered its a bit harder to actually do, so they are lowering the standards big time. Their latest "educational suggestion" is that the individual Universities (I think you US people call them colleges?) should no longer be responsible for admissions. All applications for "higher education" will go to a central government body which will decide who gets admitted, and to which University. The universities themselves will no longer have a say.

Believe me, our universities are already swamped by people that cannot write or think. This latest move will boost the numbers of "educated" people without actually addressing the reality. Politics is great :(

In addition, the matter of getting people out of poverty relies big time on having a globally competitive market. For various reasons (as discussed in above posts) this will not happen anytime soon. Would any one of the Fortune500 companies allow a bit of leaway so that black South Africa can be more competitive, and create more jobs? I don't think so.... Capitalism rules, yes?

I agree that the biggest problem Africa (not just South Africa) faces is poverty. Unfortunately, the solution is a whole lot more complicated than you might think, and it cannot all be blamed on white South Africans.

[Trident-za]

Just to add - I HATED the apartheid government in South Africa, but here is something to consider: in the 2 years leading up to the 1994 elections (where the ANC took over) the government built more low cost houses for the poor blacks than the ANC has managed to build in the last 9 years.

In addition, a news item released today: the ANC has just passed a law to speed up land reparations. I agree, in principle, with this. However, the ANC's track record is this: give a former farm worker a bit of land because his great-great-granddaddy was born there, but no education on how to farm, and no financial support. Almost all the "success stories" of these farmers are due to education and loaning of farm equipment from white farmers. Odd, isn't it?

[Durandal]

This was one operation, though and it lasted how long? What other American involvement has their been? I know a few US oil companies made an impact in Nigeria, although maybe not for the right reasons. There are still people who claim Nigeria was severely screwed by those companies. True or not, I don't know.

You guys have taken more casaulties in Iraq and Afghanistan - but you are still there. So why leave Africa after one bad day?

Anyway, I'm quite sure the US doesn't need to send troops to make a difference in Africa, although there are definitely places that would require it.

Well, outside of actual military involvement, America sends a LOT of aid to Africa. Not just as a nation but by indivdual citizens, religious organizations, and private organizations (something no one ever really considers most of the time...). BILLIONS go to African States or organizations that have a primary role in these same states.

As far as military involvement I can pick several (there are others...I am sort of giving a broad list to give you a feel fo the different type of operations).

Somalia (Military Operations)
American forces/government officials were in place from March 1992 to August of 1995. That is over three years. Not just a quick in and out...

Somalia was screwed up on the American side because you had a presidential election and a change of office during it. Bush had pulled out the heavy hitters earlier since they were, in theory, not needed, that role being handled by other U.N. nations present there as well. Clinton comes in and decideds to change the role and objectives but not the force structure. We get our noses bloodied and decide to pull out (Clinton AND America's will for military manpower loss was pathetic).

Egypt (Defense Excercises)
Mutual Defense delpoymenty operations for that region. Operation Bright Star... Egypt gets stability and economic boost.

Mozambique (Disaster Aid Missions)
Operation Atlas Response. A direct response to massive flooding damage to the nation of Maozambique. US troops are sent to aid flood survivors and displaced people. Treatment of children and the elderly and construction equipment is flown in. US Airforce does SAR work with CH-53s.

Djibouti (North of Somalia) (Counter Terrorism)
The US has in place, Camp Lemonier, an anti-terroism task force. That not only provides American troops but trains regional troops in counter terrorism operations. Recently(June), the Marine 26th Expeditionary Unit trained there following their rotation out of A'stan.

Ghana (Development Conferences and Seminars)
"The West Africa Seminar is intended to enhance regional capabilities by working with participants to formulate practical, sustainable strategies to prevent conflict. The theme for this seminar emerged from on-going consultations with African and U.S. Government leaders."

That is just a few, there are lots. More than say, a Eurropean nation does (not a slam, just fact). I figure I would show them to you to prove a point:

America does participate and HELP Africa...

[Trident-za]

Indeed... but I can justifiably say that in terms of military and humanitarian aid, South Africa has done MORE for the rest of Africa than the USA. Not in terms of financial contributions, of course. We don't have the financial resources..... my point is a simple one: I have no doubt that the US does a lot of good in Africa - but if my poor country can be involved in more contributions - well, that means you have no real interest here...... which is a pity. We need your help!!!!! We dont need a "f**k em" philosophy.

[Durandal]

I hope you realize that Afrikaans people ar NOT representitive of the entire white community in South Africa.

No, I know that. I had the chance to meet a friend of mine's father who had been a U.S. Ambassado down there in the mid-90s and discuss it. Unfortunately, the military, police, border guards, and much of the politicos were...


Unfortunately, the solution is a whole lot more complicated than you might think, and it cannot all be blamed on white South Africans.

Actually, I'll admit that I do not have an answer. I do not think anyone does, even those that think throwing money at a problem will magically correct the wrongs.

Ultiimately, Africa (much like the Middle East) needs to develop a large, strong, educated middle class that is poltically active and has somethign to lose. When that happens...then you will probably see change. The question is how to get to that point.

[Trident-za]

I hope you realize that Afrikaans people ar NOT representitive of the entire white community in South Africa.

No, I know that. I had the chance to meet a friend of mine's father who had been a U.S. Ambassado down there in the mid-90s and discuss it. Unfortunately, the military, police, border guards, and much of the politicos were...


Unfortunately, the solution is a whole lot more complicated than you might think, and it cannot all be blamed on white South Africans.

Actually, I'll admit that I do not have an answer. I do not think anyone does, even those that think throwing money at a problem will magically correct the wrongs.

Ultiimately, Africa (much like the Middle East) needs to develop a large, strong, educated middle class that is poltically active and has somethign to lose. When that happens...then you will probably see change. The question is how to get to that point.

Agree 100%

[Durandal]

Indeed... but I can justifiably say that in terms of military and humanitarian aid, South Africa has done MORE for the rest of Africa than the USA. Not in terms of financial contributions, of course. We don't have the financial resources..... my point is a simple one: I have no doubt that the US does a lot of good in Africa - but if my poor country can be involved in more contributions - well, that means you have no real interest here...... which is a pity. We need your help!!!!! We dont need a "f**k em" philosophy.

Not too sure if this post was directed at me, but military operations in Angola does not really count as helping Africa.

[Trident-za]

:lol:

Yes, I realize that. I just mean that in the past 10 years or so South Africa hs been involved militarily with quite a variety of African countries - including, but not restricted to: Lesotho, Congo, Liberia and Siearra Leone (I'm not sure if this last was official). They have also provided humanitarian aid to a lot of African countires - all the above, plus a good few others (sorry, can't remember all the names, but I know it includes Zimbabwe, Congo, Liberia and Mozambique).

My point is that if you just want to look at the "number" of interventions or diplomatic overtures, the South African effort outweighs what the US has done in the last 10 years. I make no judgement on the relative "quality" of the interventions, not having access to all the info.

Again, I have no doubt that the US helps Africa...... the question is whether are helping enough.

[Red]

i really dont know where you all get your information about africa but anyway i think you all are overgeneralising.The problems in Africa vary from place to place.I dont live on trees and there is no genocide in my part of town.In my honest opinion,politicians were the worst things to happen to Africa.And yes Oil companies screwed and still screw Nigerians over but that is because the VERY corupt government of Nigeria lets it go on.Some western countries are also culpable in this but i dont want to get into that.

[Durandal]

In my honest opinion,politicians were the worst things to happen to Africa.

Just out of curiosity what would you replace them with?

[Red]

In my honest opinion,politicians were the worst things to happen to Africa.

Just out of curiosity what would you replace them with?

statesmen

[California Joe]

Cecil Rhodes.

[Durandal]

Cecil Rhodes.

rofl

Joe, you rock...

[GODDARD]

I am from south africa and this place has its good points and bad points. as for aids and hiv the ex president is doing more to fight aids than the new president it is as if the new pres. thinks the problem will just go away but it will not. :cantbeli:

The military is getting back into shape with op phoenix, for those who do not know what that is. The gov will over the next year try and bring resevist in and they will form the military and do spot check and protect and serve this wonderfull country.

If that plan fails this country will be in the place that zimbabwe is now. :-*$ The army here supports the police with personell and resources for operations.

unempoyment here is high so if your dad is not a bussinessman or you dont have varsity deploma you are f***ed. so thats why crime is high as they have to steal to get money for food

[Durandal]

The military is getting back into shape with op phoenix, for those who do not know what that is.

Operation Phoenix? I think someone in South Africa should do a better job naming their ops.

;)

[[AFSOC]]

Get white people back in power

ALlz i have to say is that your a fagget you ignorant ****.

[Trigger]

Look out ][JTF-2][ is going to go into full '3RCR-GodSsoN-theGHOST-=75thRANGER=-Cpl. Roldan' mode. Could you possibly change your screen name more often? rofl

[NcDeuce]

Monkeys, AIDS, civil war... :|

[GODDARD]

its nothing to do with white or black its about who is willing to take a stand and fight for white they believe is right and of cause they try and make a buck from it if they can

[Durandal]

...fight for white they believe is right and of cause they try and make a buck from it if they can

Are you SURE? Or was that a mistake on your part? :|

[California Joe]

See, THAT was funny.

[DPGLAW]

Who F ucking cares, thats my opinion, go ahead and say what you will but this is just a stupid thread...my .02

[California Joe]

Who are you again?

[Durandal]

See, THAT was funny.

:)

[GODDARD]

Damn :cantbeli: I f**cked up You know what I meant.