Reversible Goretex Camo Parka

[Der Weisse Hai]

GoreTex Reversible Parka (http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=5550&tabID=139)

Anyone who has got practical experiences with this gear? How is the quality? Are ther other, similar products?

DWH

[Dalleer]

Well , as far as I've understood the various Goretex - clothing used by the US is of very good quality overall.

It might cost you , but it's surely worth the money.

[Beer Monster]

Never really quite grasped the concept of a reversible gortex jacket ........ surely the gortex only works one way i.e. vapour permeable on one side and impermeable on the other. So if it's reversible and you wear it "impermeable side in" the jacket won't breath (... you'll sweat like your bo**ocks off) and the permeable side may start to transport the moisture into the jacket?!? :| ?

[memphiz]

Never really quite grasped the concept of a reversible gortex jacket ........ surely the gortex only works one way i.e. vapour permeable on one side and impermeable on the other. So if it's reversible and you wear it "impermeable side in" the jacket won't breath (... you'll sweat like your bo**ocks off) and the permeable side may start to transport the moisture into the jacket?!? :| ?
Goretex doesnt breath anyways, ,thats why people tend to not like it

[rokdoc]

Never really quite grasped the concept of a reversible gortex jacket ........ surely the gortex only works one way i.e. vapour permeable on one side and impermeable on the other. So if it's reversible and you wear it "impermeable side in" the jacket won't breath (... you'll sweat like your bo**ocks off) and the permeable side may start to transport the moisture into the jacket?!? :| ?
Goretex doesnt breath anyways, ,thats why people tend to not like it

Gortex breathes just fine if it's used in the conditions in which it was designed to work. As long as the outside air temperature is >20 degrees colder than the inside temperature, it will breathe. The myth that it doesn't work is carried along by morons wearing it when the weather conditions aren't right.
Different garments for different conditions. It's not a luxury that we have in the military, but there is a reason for it.

[Beer Monster]

Never really quite grasped the concept of a reversible gortex jacket ........ surely the gortex only works one way i.e. vapour permeable on one side and impermeable on the other. So if it's reversible and you wear it "impermeable side in" the jacket won't breath (... you'll sweat like your bo**ocks off) and the permeable side may start to transport the moisture into the jacket?!? :| ?
Goretex doesnt breath anyways, ,thats why people tend to not like it

Gortex breathes just fine if it's used in the conditions in which it was designed to work. As long as the outside air temperature is >20 degrees colder than the inside temperature, it will breathe. The myth that it doesn't work is carried along by morons wearing it when the weather conditions aren't right.
Different garments for different conditions. It's not a luxury that we have in the military, but there is a reason for it.

You're right about needing a temperature gradient to be effective (http://www.gore-tex.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ContentGView?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&productId=10255). Thats why arctic explorers, mountain warfare troops etc swear by cotton ventile (bloody expensive though!). In very cold weather conditions the temperature inside and outside your outer jacket is the same so moisture vapour doesn't pass through the membrane and builds up on the inside of the jacket = damp and uncomfortable clothes!

If you're active wearing any type of waterproof jacket your going to sweat ......... but your clothing won't get as wet/will dry our quicker if your wearing gortex jacket. It's worth pointing out that there is no point in wearing a gortex jacket without a decent sweat "wicking" base layer/mid layer underneath it. Regular cotton is the worst baselayer it just traps and holds sweat next to your body and dries out so sloooooowly ...... in cold weather it can be a killer.

[AROUETLJ]

And if you're sweating faster than the transpiration rate, you'll still get wet. Same thing with goretex boots.

[rokdoc]

This is why we developed the PCU. Look it up. Protective Combat Uniform.....you can thank us here at Natick Labs.

[fantassin]

The XL sizes on those jackets are on the small side. Mind it if you are tall.

[AROUETLJ]

This is why we developed the PCU.

Yes I read about it. The concept seems to be to have an outer shell with the same properties as goretex, and an inner shell which speeds up the evaporation of sweat by spreading it out over a larger area.

But you'll still get wet if you're sweating buckets, since the outer shell, at the end of the day, still has a finite transpiration rate. Apart from that, you're most likely to wear the outer waterproof shell when it's raining or when you're lying in the wet, which means that the humidity gradient isn't that steep, and it'll be even more difficult to achieve a fast transpiration rate. You can still be relatively comfortable, though, if you wick the sweat away fromt he body, since that's not a question of transpiration, assuming you don't reach the point where the inner layer is saturated with sweat. Then again, you're not likely to reach that point unless it's terribly hot. And if you're terribly hot and standing in 90% humidity (i.e. in a jungle), you don't wear a waterproof layer because it actually makes you more uncomfortable.

The point, of course, is that even the most technical clothing has its limitations. (Unless you're prepared to wear a spacesuit...)

[Sabre]

Goretex has its uses. In temperate climates it is always worth carrying if only for when you stop.

I always carry a goretex jacket and bivvy bag whenever I go out to the hills. But i don't like wearing it uless it's really wet/windy. I also tend not to like goretex boots. The best thing is to tab in as few layers as possible (lifa shirt and windproof layer) and just put the goretex on when you stop. That way, you don't build up so much sweat and hence dont get cold.

[rokdoc]

This is why we developed the PCU.

Yes I read about it. The concept seems to be to have an outer shell with the same properties as goretex, and an inner shell which speeds up the evaporation of sweat by spreading it out over a larger area.

But you'll still get wet if you're sweating buckets, since the outer shell, at the end of the day, still has a finite transpiration rate. Apart from that, you're most likely to wear the outer waterproof shell when it's raining or when you're lying in the wet, which means that the humidity gradient isn't that steep, and it'll be even more difficult to achieve a fast transpiration rate. You can still be relatively comfortable, though, if you wick the sweat away fromt he body, since that's not a question of transpiration, assuming you don't reach the point where the inner layer is saturated with sweat. Then again, you're not likely to reach that point unless it's terribly hot. And if you're terribly hot and standing in 90% humidity (i.e. in a jungle), you don't wear a waterproof layer because it actually makes you more uncomfortable.

The point, of course, is that even the most technical clothing has its limitations. (Unless you're prepared to wear a spacesuit...)

Rethink your opinion on the PCU. You have the entire concept wrong.

[Beer Monster]

Goretex has its uses. In temperate climates it is always worth carrying if only for when you stop.

I always carry a goretex jacket and bivvy bag whenever I go out to the hills. But i don't like wearing it uless it's really wet/windy. I also tend not to like goretex boots. The best thing is to tab in as few layers as possible (lifa shirt and windproof layer) and just put the goretex on when you stop. That way, you don't build up so much sweat and hence dont get cold.

Same here ...... good advice. Very rarely wear gortex trousers either ........ makes that annoying "swishing" sound when you walk! :roll: Trousers dry out quickly anyway.

So all in all:- a reversible gortex jacket will only "work" when its worn with the right layer on the outside so getting a reversible gortex jacket means that only 1 of the 2 camouflage patterns (depending on which one is exposed) will work as a regular gortex jacket. The other pattern will not be vapour permeable and hence will be no different from a regular nylon jacket. Fair assessment? :)

As for which patterns to go for black sticks out like a sore thumb in any climate so avoid that one and I think there was a thread on here somewhere about the night desert camouflage ...... I think the outcome was that it doesn't work!

So that leaves the temperate/desert DPM. Hopefully its the temperate DPM pattern on the impermeable layer (chances are you will use it in a relatively cold climate so the temperature gradient will work!) and the desert DPM pattern on the permeable layer (desert pattern - generally hot climate less temperature gradient so gortex probably won't work that well anyway!). I could of course be completely wrong ....... wouldn't be the first time! :D

PCU is a layer system isn't it? Ranging from wicking base to various warm mid layers and different shells so you can tailor your clothing to your environment? Don't know much about it I'm afraid ......... wish our government got of it's a*se and produced something similar though!

[Sabre]

I'm not so sure how a reversible smock would work. I think the principle of goretex is simply that the membrane has small enough pores for vapour to pass through, but not droplets. I think it would work each way, it just depends on the environment inside/outside the smock. It's true that it only works with the correct temperature gradients and correct moisture gradient (ie it doesn't work in high humidity or if submerged). It is possible for the correct conditions to be present in a desert environment, especially at night.

I suppose it depends on what you're planning on using the smock for. Personally, I'd just use a standard goretex jacket in green/dpm. If you are worried about cam, then just wear it under your jacket. Chances are it won't matter that it's green.

If goretex works both ways, then it might be fine. My only concern would be the two layers of material. That much nylon will just make you sweat buckets.

[AROUETLJ]

Rethink your opinion on the PCU. You have the entire concept wrong.

How about handing me some item for a review? hmm? Yes?

[rokdoc]

Hmm...no. Well, maybe. We shall see when my next set gets here.

[memphiz]

Never really quite grasped the concept of a reversible gortex jacket ........ surely the gortex only works one way i.e. vapour permeable on one side and impermeable on the other. So if it's reversible and you wear it "impermeable side in" the jacket won't breath (... you'll sweat like your bo**ocks off) and the permeable side may start to transport the moisture into the jacket?!? :| ?
Goretex doesnt breath anyways, ,thats why people tend to not like it

Gortex breathes just fine if it's used in the conditions in which it was designed to work. As long as the outside air temperature is >20 degrees colder than the inside temperature, it will breathe. The myth that it doesn't work is carried along by morons wearing it when the weather conditions aren't right.
Different garments for different conditions. It's not a luxury that we have in the military, but there is a reason for it.
Thanks for clearing that up, people usually talk down of Gortex saying it doesnt breath so thats what I began to think.
I found it strange because I never had any problems when I wore mine.

[HoboWithAK]

So all in all:- a reversible gortex jacket will only "work" when its worn with the right layer on the outside so getting a reversible gortex jacket means that only 1 of the 2 camouflage patterns (depending on which one is exposed) will work as a regular gortex jacket. The other pattern will not be vapour permeable and hence will be no different from a regular nylon jacket. Fair assessment?

Wrong. Goretex fabric is the same on both sides- like a sheet of paper. It's still vapour permeable inside out.

[MapleLeafInfantry]

I see nobodies ventured to talk about stealth suits!

A stealth suit is a extreemly light gortex layer designed to be worn underneath your uniform, better then a cumbersome jacket or rain pants, it provides that layer of waterproofness which fits as light as long underwear does.

I like to wear it with a moisture wicking layer, such as polypro but other guys just wear it for wind/rain protection underneath the combats. adds a few degrees of heat protection too. Its pretty high on the canadian gucci kit list i'd say....

http://kitshop.ppcli.com/images/StealthSuit.JPG
mapes
-shame its reflective....

[memphiz]

I see nobodies ventured to talk about stealth suits!

A stealth suit is a extreemly light gortex layer designed to be worn underneath your uniform, better then a cumbersome jacket or rain pants, it provides that layer of waterproofness which fits as light as long underwear does.

I like to wear it with a moisture wicking layer, such as polypro but other guys just wear it for wind/rain protection underneath the combats. adds a few degrees of heat protection too. Its pretty high on the canadian gucci kit list i'd say....
http://kitshop.ppcli.com/images/StealthSuit.JPG
mapes
-shame its reflective....
How the eff do I get one of those, I always see Cpls and up wearing them, and those scarfs that look like shemags(sp?) ?

[Beer Monster]

So all in all:- a reversible gortex jacket will only "work" when its worn with the right layer on the outside so getting a reversible gortex jacket means that only 1 of the 2 camouflage patterns (depending on which one is exposed) will work as a regular gortex jacket. The other pattern will not be vapour permeable and hence will be no different from a regular nylon jacket. Fair assessment?

Wrong. Goretex fabric is the same on both sides- like a sheet of paper. It's still vapour permeable inside out.

So what’s stopping rain and water vapour from outside permeating into the jacket? I'm probably being really stupid! :lol:

[Beer Monster]

I see nobodies ventured to talk about stealth suits!

A stealth suit is a extreemly light gortex layer designed to be worn underneath your uniform, better then a cumbersome jacket or rain pants, it provides that layer of waterproofness which fits as light as long underwear does.

I like to wear it with a moisture wicking layer, such as polypro but other guys just wear it for wind/rain protection underneath the combats. adds a few degrees of heat protection too. Its pretty high on the canadian gucci kit list i'd say....

-shame its reflective....


How the eff do I get one of those, I always see Cpls and up wearing them, and those scarfs that look like shemags(sp?) ?

Do you guys get issued them? Arktis Ltd make something similar called Rainshield jacket and trousers. Not sure how well it performs compared to gortex.

[Sabre]

So all in all:- a reversible gortex jacket will only "work" when its worn with the right layer on the outside so getting a reversible gortex jacket means that only 1 of the 2 camouflage patterns (depending on which one is exposed) will work as a regular gortex jacket. The other pattern will not be vapour permeable and hence will be no different from a regular nylon jacket. Fair assessment?

Wrong. Goretex fabric is the same on both sides- like a sheet of paper. It's still vapour permeable inside out.

So what’s stopping rain and water vapour from outside permeating into the jacket? I'm probably being really stupid! :lol:

Mate, in simple terms the holes are too small for water droplets from the environment to pass through, but water vapour can. There isn't much water vapour around outside a goretex jacket because of the temperature and the fact that convection currents will disperse it. The highest concentration of water vapour is inside the jacket, because you sweat and your body heat vapourises that sweat. This high concentration of water vapour then 'diffuses' accross the goretex to a low concentration area (ie the outside. This is why they are only effective in certain climates. The more humidity (water vapour in the atmosphere) there is, the less well it works because there is less of a difference between outside the jacket and inside. You'll notice that droplets forming on the inside don't pass through either. It works both ways.

[Sabre]

Here's a diagram:

http://img281.echo.cx/my.php?image=goretex0nf.png

[Sabre]

Ignore my last, I can't edit for some reason.... :|

here

http://img281.echo.cx/my.php?image=goretex0nf.png

=========================================

EDIT: WTF????!?!?!?!?!?

I'm confused.......

......never mind, the link ought to work.

[Beer Monster]

Ignore my last, I can't edit for some reason.... :|

here

http://img281.echo.cx/my.php?image=goretex0nf.png

=========================================

EDIT: WTF????!?!?!?!?!?

I'm confused.......

......never mind, the link ought to work.

Roger so far. I always thought there was another nylon layer that was impermeable outside the gortex membrane but it turns out it is just plain old nylon (coated with a water repellent finish (http://www.gore-tex.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ContentGView?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&productId=10257)) to protect the membrane. All makes sense now. Cheers :)

[MapleLeafInfantry]

memphiz, you buy em, kitshop.ppcli.com, or if you get the chance to go to the nearest ppcli kitshop on base to you, they should run you around $250

They aren't issued to saturday morning cartoons like myself nope.


mapes



I see nobodies ventured to talk about stealth suits!

A stealth suit is a extreemly light gortex layer designed to be worn underneath your uniform, better then a cumbersome jacket or rain pants, it provides that layer of waterproofness which fits as light as long underwear does.

I like to wear it with a moisture wicking layer, such as polypro but other guys just wear it for wind/rain protection underneath the combats. adds a few degrees of heat protection too. Its pretty high on the canadian gucci kit list i'd say....

-shame its reflective....


How the eff do I get one of those, I always see Cpls and up wearing them, and those scarfs that look like shemags(sp?) ?

Do you guys get issued them? Arktis Ltd make something similar called Rainshield jacket and trousers. Not sure how well it performs compared to gortex.

[memphiz]

memphiz, you buy em, kitshop.ppcli.com, or if you get the chance to go to the nearest ppcli kitshop on base to you, they should run you around $250

They aren't issued to saturday morning cartoons like myself nope.


mapes



I see nobodies ventured to talk about stealth suits!

A stealth suit is a extreemly light gortex layer designed to be worn underneath your uniform, better then a cumbersome jacket or rain pants, it provides that layer of waterproofness which fits as light as long underwear does.

I like to wear it with a moisture wicking layer, such as polypro but other guys just wear it for wind/rain protection underneath the combats. adds a few degrees of heat protection too. Its pretty high on the canadian gucci kit list i'd say....

-shame its reflective....


How the eff do I get one of those, I always see Cpls and up wearing them, and those scarfs that look like shemags(sp?) ?

Do you guys get issued them? Arktis Ltd make something similar called Rainshield jacket and trousers. Not sure how well it performs compared to gortex.
Damn, $250.
Ill wait then, thanks for the info

[slobo]

GoreTex Reversible Parka (http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=5550&tabID=139)

Anyone who has got practical experiences with this gear? How is the quality? Are ther other, similar products?

DWH

I was considering picking up one of these myself

http://www.adventuretech.com/catalog_reversible.html

Anyone in the U.S.Army or USMC use these inthe field that can comment on them? How do they compare to the ECWCS? If lighter, that would seem to addrss my number 1 problem with ECWCS -- it's bulkiness.

BTW: Are these issue items, PX items, or "aftermarket" items. If the latter, any problem wearing them as "non-issue". How popular arethey when the conditions justify them (cold desert nites for example)?