We Finally Got Our Frankenstein..and He Was In a Spider Hole

[Skaman]

Check out Moores article:

Thank God Saddam is finally back in American hands! He must have really missed us. Man, he sure looked bad! But, at least he got a free dental exam today. That's something most Americans can't get.

America used to like Saddam. We LOVED Saddam. We funded him. We armed him. We helped him gas Iranian troops.

But then he screwed up. He invaded the dictatorship of Kuwait and, in doing so, did the worst thing imaginable -- he threatened an even BETTER friend of ours: the dictatorship of Saudi Arabia, and its vast oil reserves. The Bushes and the Saudi royal family were and are close business partners, and Saddam, back in 1990, committed a royal blunder by getting a little too close to their wealthy holdings. Things went downhill for Saddam from there.

But it wasn't always that way. Saddam was our good friend and ally. We supported his regime. It wasn’t the first time we had helped a murderer. We liked playing Dr. Frankenstein. We created a lot of monsters -- the Shah of Iran, Somoza of Nicaragua, Pinochet of Chile -- and then we expressed ignorance or shock when they ran amok and massacred people. We liked Saddam because he was willing to fight the Ayatollah. So we made sure that he got billions of dollars to purchase weapons. Weapons of mass destruction. That's right, he had them. We should know -- we gave them to him!

We allowed and encouraged American corporations to do business with Saddam in the 1980s. That's how he got chemical and biological agents so he could use them in chemical and biological weapons. Here's the list of some of the stuff we sent him (according to a 1994 U.S. Senate report):
* Bacillus Anthracis, cause of anthrax.
* Clostridium Botulinum, a source of botulinum toxin.
* Histoplasma Capsulatam, cause of a disease attacking lungs, brain, spinal cord, and heart.
* Brucella Melitensis, a bacteria that can damage major organs.
* Clostridium Perfringens, a highly toxic bacteria causing systemic illness.
* Clostridium tetani, a highly toxigenic substance.

And here are some of the American corporations who helped to prop Saddam up by doing business with him: AT&T, Bechtel, Caterpillar, Dow Chemical, Dupont, Kodak, Hewlett-Packard, and IBM (for a full list of companies and descriptions of how they helped Saddam, click here.

We were so cozy with dear old Saddam that we decided to feed him satellite images so he could locate where the Iranian troops were. We pretty much knew how he would use the information, and sure enough, as soon as we sent him the spy photos, he gassed those troops. And we kept quiet. Because he was our friend, and the Iranians were the "enemy." A year after he first gassed the Iranians, we reestablished full diplomatic relations with him!

Later he gassed his own people, the Kurds. You would think that would force us to disassociate ourselves from him. Congress tried to impose economic sanctions on Saddam, but the Reagan White House quickly rejected that idea -- they wouldn’t let anything derail their good buddy Saddam. We had a virtual love fest with this Frankenstein whom we (in part) created.

And, just like the mythical Frankenstein, Saddam eventually spun out of control. He would no longer do what he was told by his master. Saddam had to be caught. And now that he has been brought back from the wilderness, perhaps he will have something to say about his creators. Maybe we can learn something... interesting. Maybe Don Rumsfeld could smile and shake Saddam's hand again. Just like he did when he went to see him in 1983 (click here to see the photo). http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

Maybe we never would have been in the situation we're in if Rumsfeld, Bush, Sr., and company hadn't been so excited back in the 80s about their friendly monster in the desert.

Meanwhile, anybody know where the guy is who killed 3,000 people on 9/11? Our other Frankenstein?? Maybe he's in a mouse hole.

So many of our little monsters, so little time before the next election.



For more articles, go here:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0818-02.htm

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/medsearch/FocusAreas/riegle_report/report/report_index.htm

http://www.progressive.org/0901/anth0498.html

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/03/23/news-crogan.php

http://www.fas.org/man/gao/gao9498.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52241-2002Dec29?language=printer

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/publications/iraqgate/iraqgate.html

Stay strong, Democratic candidates. Quit sounding like a bunch of wusses. These bastards sent us to war on a lie, the killing will not stop, the Arab world hates us with a passion, and we will pay for this out of our pockets for years to come. Nothing that happened today (or in the past 9 months) has made us ONE BIT safer in our post-9/11 world. Saddam was never a threat to our national security.

Only our desire to play Dr. Frankenstein dooms us all.

Yours,

Michael Moore

[Vance]

http://reichnation.com/uploads/stfuinsult.jpg

[Shake n Bake]

http://www.timewarp-toys.com/troll.jpg

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da26b3127cce96536f121dee0000001610

http://www.hugi.is/hahradi/bigboxes.php?box_id=51208&f_id=901

[Zach R.]

douchebag19, try to post that over at www.ar15.com or SOCNET. :bash:
This is gonna be good. :lol:

[Seoulstriker]

* Bacillus Anthracis, cause of anthrax.
* Clostridium Botulinum, a source of botulinum toxin.
* Histoplasma Capsulatam, cause of a disease attacking lungs, brain, spinal cord, and heart.
* Brucella Melitensis, a bacteria that can damage major organs.
* Clostridium Perfringens, a highly toxic bacteria causing systemic illness.
* Clostridium tetani, a highly toxigenic substance.


moore, you really don't sound intelligent when you're trying to sound like an expert on bioweapons when you're not. :roll:

[budanski]

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg

"Stay strong, Democratic candidates. Quit sounding like a bunch of wusses. These bastards sent us to war on a lie, the killing will not stop, the Arab world hates us with a passion, and we will pay for this out of our pockets for years to come. Nothing that happened today (or in the past 9 months) has made us ONE BIT safer in our post-9/11 world. Saddam was never a threat to our national security."

Seriously though, Douchebag. I don't see why you've got such a hard on for Moore. Both you and Moore have been constantly proven wrong yet you repeat it over and over and over and over... GOD! If you're gonna try to impress us with your "University" studies, please be a little more credible than posting the works of a fruitcake.

First off, it's hard to prove a negative. Anyone can claim anything...but the burden is on the accuser to prove the claim. There is an interesting chart (http://i.xanga.com/dissidentfrogman/saddamgraph.gif)(which I've posted numerous times) that puts into perspective how much material support Saddam actually got from the US. Among the Western nations, the US was actually far down on the list.

The "we armed Iraq in the 1980's" is a constant excuse used by the Left to argue against war with Saddam. While Saddam did get limited military suppport, most of what he got during the Iraq/Iran war was intelligence infomation. In fact, the evidence of this was the Gulf War in 1991. Just how many US made aircraft did you see fighting against our troops? How many US made tanks did you see? Their troops were using AK-47s, and their tanks were Soviet TU-type tanks. It wasn't F-Fighters that we found buried in the Iraq dessert...or that were moved to Iran before the Gulf War; it was Mirage and Migs. Seriously...think about that. We also armed Stalin during WWII with the Lend-Lease Act but that didn't preclude us from engaging in a Cold War, immediately after WWII ended.

And this crap about giving Saddam Bio/Chemical "weapons" is a lie as well. Saddam never got "weaponized" nerve agents or biological agents from the USA. Everything he got from us was a cooperative (UN and Western nations) effort to help Iraq deal with the rampant spread of contagious diseases and viruses that were killing his people. While this did include biological samples of viruses, this was a standard practice with the ATCC (American Type Culture Collection) and other medical institutions as they sent samples to medical researchers around the world...so they could develop immunizing agents to battle these diseases.

This was especially of interest for Baghdad University (who made the request) as they appealed to the UN, CDC and WHO for help in controlling the spread of Brucellosis, Diptheria, Hepa****, Cholera, TB and any number of contagious diseases. It's unfortunate, but in order to find a cure (or immunize) for a disease, the medical researcher usually needs a sample of the live virus. This is a far cry, however, from the claims of "weaponized" materials being sent to Saddam.

Much of these so-called "chemicals" were also based on the same principal of fighting disease...which included Chlorines and pesticides that could be used in agriculture and in water treatment facilities to contain the spread of disease. Before the concern over bio/chem warfare, these were common practices that medical researchers egaged in world wide. Saddam never got instructions from the US on how to weaponize these agents. That he got from the USSR, as they not only instructed Saddam on the process, they contributed the entire weaponized component.

In hindsight this was obviously a stupid thing, but it was not illegal...and if it was, the Senate Banking Committee, who actually investigated these charges, would've brought charges against those who participated. While they did acknowledge material transfers to Iraq, nothing was done outside the law. Unfortunately, this was all the ammunition the left needed to accuse the US of arming Saddam with bio/chem weapons. There is a great article that debunks this myth and explains the details in these tranfers. And even though anthrax was a part of these transfers, these transfers had been occuring since the late 1960's and was common practice within the medical community, before the fear of bio/chem warfare.

Unfortunately, nowadays, anyone can turn chlorine and pesticide into a gas bomb...and fertilizer into a explosive device. This is a far cry, however, from the Sarin and Mustard Gas that was used by Saddam on the Kurds. And the USA never gave Saddam these nerve agents. You wouldn't know that, though, from reading the accusations of others.


For an extended period of time US policy was that any research labs were required to share viruses and items like anthrax with other research labs from other countries if that country was not deemed an "enemy." We sent three shipments to university research hospital in Iraq, with the first being in 1973. A lab in England supplied the fourth. The objective was to help others try to come up with antidotes or cures for certain diseases. It was not until Iraq invaded Kuwait that we put them on the "bad" list that would have prohibited the export of any anthrax or similar items.

The policy was naive but had good intentions. In hindsight, it was probably pretty stupid. In 1973 we were heavily involved in Vietnam and the Middle East was probably not high on our radar screen. Then in the 1980s after the hostage situation in Iran we saw Iraq as the enemy of our enemy so no flag would have been triggered by sales of viral strains to a University research hospital there at that time. Unfortunately, this has been spun into us somehow deliberatly creating a biological weapons program for Iraq as policy.

This is a copy of the Riegle report that was submitted to Congress in 1994. It is in regards to the possibility that some of our military were exposed to chemical or biological agents during the first Gulf War.

Full Report Here (http://www.gulfweb.org/bigdoc/report/riegle1.html)
Detailed list of every biological agent shipped to Iraq (http://www.gulfweb.org/bigdoc/report/r_1_2.html)

This shows only two shipments but each contained more than one sample. The third in 1973.

SNIP

Date : May 2, 1986
Sent To : Ministry of Higher Education
Materials Shipped:

1. Bacillus Anthracis Cohn (ATCC 10)
Batch # 08-20-82 (2 each)
Class III pathogen

12. Bacillus Anthracis (ATCC 14185)
Batch #01-14-80 (3 each)
G.G. Wright (Fort Detrick)
V770-NP1-R. Bovine Anthrax
Class III pathogen

13. Bacillus Anthracis (ATCC 14578)
Batch #01-06-78 (2 each)
Class III pathogen

Date : September 29, 1988
Sent To : Ministry of Trade
Materials Shipped:

1. Bacillus anthracis (ATCC 240)
Batch # 05-14-63 (3 each)
Class III pathogen

2. Bacillus anthracis (ATCC 938)
Batch # 1963 (3 each)
Class III pathogen

5. Bacillus anthracis (ATCC 8705)
Batch # 06-27-62 (3 each)
Class III pathogen

8. Bacillus anthracis (ATCC 11966)
Batch #05-05-70 (3 each)
Class III pathogen

from the text: "...pathogenic (meaning "disease producing"), toxigenic (meaning "poisonous"), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce. Records prior to 1985 were not available, according to the supplier."

Interesting newspaper articles as well as a lot of independent research here. Wisconsin Project (http://www.wisconsinproject.org/)

From a Wall Street Journal article: (http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/bioter/vilebusiness.html)

Will our troops find caches of poison gas, or even be hit by it on the battlefield? If so, German and French companies will be mainly to blame. In the 1980's, the German firm Karl Kolb and the French firm Protec combined to furnish millions of dollars' worth of sensitive equipment to six separate plants for making mustard gas and nerve agents, with a capacity of hundreds of tons of nerve agent per year. These companies had to know what the specialized glass-lined vessels they peddled were to be used for. It is insufferable that, like Pontius Pilate, Germany and France now wash their hands of the whole affair, and even chastise others for cleaning up the mess their companies helped create.

And how would the poison gas be carried? A gas doesn't stream through the ether by itself to reach a target. A specially prepared munition has to deliver it. Iraq admits that in the 1980's it bought more than 3,000 chemical-ready aerial bombs from Spain, more than 8,000 chemical-ready artillery shells from Italy and Spain, and more than 12,000 chemical-ready rocket warheads from Italy and Egypt. Most of these munitions remain unaccounted for. If our troops take casualties from a gas attack, they will have been inflicted by an international consortium of reckless suppliers.

There are also some Scud-type missiles to worry about that were left over from the first Gulf War. Saddam may fire some at Tel Aviv (as in 1991) to goad Israel into the fighting. Our friends the Russians sold Iraq 819 of these missiles, but the Iraqis soon discovered they didn't fly far enough. Their range had to be increased to reach Tel Aviv, where they flattened buildings in the first Gulf War, and to bombard Saudi Arabia, where they killed 28 American soldiers sleeping in their barracks. The Germans were only too happy to provide what was needed to make the missiles more lethal. From the German firm Thyssen came 35 turbopumps to enhance their rocket engines; from the firms BP, Carl Zeiss, Degussa and Tesa came training in wind tunnels and missile electronics; and from the electronic giant Siemens came switching devices and electrical systems to control missile fuel production. Not to be left out, Britain's Matrix Churchill Ltd. (in which the Iraqis had a controlling interest) supplied sensitive machine tools, Britain's TMG Engineering served as a front company for missile procurement, and U.S. defense contractor Litton Industries bankrolled the German firm that built Iraq's main missile production complex.

And anthrax? Botulinum? Most of the strains to make these deadly agents came from an outfit in Maryland - the American Type Culture Collection. France's Pasteur Institute also sold some. The Iraqis admitted producing 8,445 liters of anthrax (inspectors think three times as much was made) and almost 20,000 liters of botulinum. Both of these germs were loaded into missile warheads and aerial bombs. The Iraqis were also working on airborne spray devices. These weapons too remain mostly unaccounted for. If our troops or cities are attacked with this material, our own bugs will be coming back to bite us.

In all, the rush to outfit Saddam with mass destruction weapons reveals a lot about national morals. Our organization did a study of Saddam's pre-Gulf War suppliers a few year back. We discovered that Germany garnered fully half the total sales. In fact, just before the Gulf War, Germany was selling complete, ready-to-operate poison gas plants to Iraq and Libya at the same time. The rest of the world divided the remaining half of Iraq's purchases. The Swiss, who have an unreasonably good reputation in the world, placed second in the sweepstakes with about 8% of sales (specialized presses, milling machines, grinding machines and electrical discharge machines found at nuclear weapon sites; procurement of missile parts and supervision of missile plant construction; equipment for processing uranium to nuclear weapon grade). In third place, with 4% each, Italy and France scored a tie.


Notice how I used credible sources. Your sad attempt at looking for the truth "outside the box" just for the sake of being different tends to lead you further from it. Please, give a rest now will ya?

[Skaman]

The trial might turn into more than an account of genocide, invasion, murder and massacre, dominant though that would be.

It could become a political event tinged with some embarrassment for countries and individuals who were once close to him.

Saddam Hussein's egocentric sense of history, largely centred around a vision of himself leading the Arab world as Saladin led it against the Crusaders, would surely tempt him to play to the gallery of Arab opinion.

In the process, he might raise the question as to why those who later opposed him once supplied him with technical, military and diplomatic muscle.

Two current Western leaders in particular might find their names in the frame - the French President Jacques Chirac and the US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

But before considering their role, it is important to remember that Saddam Hussein's main supplier was the Soviet Union. He was sent its best equipment - Mig 29s, T 72 tanks, artillery, gunboats and Scud missiles.
And he did not pay for it all. Russia, the Soviet Union's successor state, is still owed billions of dollars.

French role

France, however, was also a major supplier. When he was prime minister in 1974, Jacques Chirac went to Baghdad to see Saddam Hussein, then the power in Iraq, though not yet the president.

The following year, Saddam Hussein went to France and Prime Minister Chirac showed him round a nuclear plant.

They negotiated the sale to Iraq of two French nuclear reactors. One of them was destroyed in an air raid by the Israelis in 1981 amid fears that Iraq was developing a nuclear weapon.

France also agreed to provide Iraq with 133 Mirage F1 jet fighters over a 10-year period. It is reckoned that during the 1980s, 40% of France's arms exports went to Iraq.

'My dear friend'

In 1987, a French paper published a letter written to Saddam Hussein by Jacques Chirac a few months previously. It began: " My dear friend."

It refers obliquely to "the negotiation which you know about" and to the "co-operation launched more than 12 years ago under our personal joint initiative, in this capital district for the sovereignty, independence and security of your country."

The French president has since said that, at the time, many governments supported Iraq in its war against Iran

Mr Chirac denied that the "negotiation" meant a discussion about repairing Iraq's nuclear reactors.

The French president has since said that, at the time, many governments supported Iraq in its war against Iran and that Iraq was seen as "progressive".

Indeed many other Western countries - including the United States, Britain, West Germany and Italy - also helped Iraq with equipment and expertise, both civilian and military, and with finance.

Iraq's Arab neighbours in the Gulf, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia among them saw revolutionary Iran as a threat and poured money into Baghdad.

US diplomacy

The role played by the United States turned out to be important diplomatically. And this is where Mr Rumsfeld came in.


Saddam Hussein was once courted by the West
In the early 1980s, the bogeyman for the Americans was Ayatollah Khomeini. He had come to power in Iran during the 1979 Islamic revolution.

The United States had been humiliated by the seizure of its embassy and the holding of its staff as hostages for more than a year. This helped Jimmy Carter lose the presidency to Ronald Reagan in 1980.

With Iran seen as the danger, Washington turned to Iraq as the bulwark.

Iraq had invaded Iran in 1980 but the Iranians had held the advance and were striking back with human wave attacks. Iraq was known, by 1983, to have used chemical weapons to stop these.

A US State Department memorandum in 1983 stated: "We have recently received additional information confirming Iraqi use of chemical weapons."

President Reagan determined nevertheless that Iraq should be supported and he sent Mr Rumsfeld to Baghdad with a personal letter from himself to Saddam Hussein.

Mr Rumsfeld had been defence secretary under President Ford and was then head of a private pharmaceutical company.

Minutes of their meeting in December 1983 were taken by an American diplomat and later released in edited form under the Freedom of Information Act. They were published by the National Security Archive, a private research group.

Iran the motive

It is clear from the account that Mr Rumsfeld was concerned about Iran and that this was the motive for the American approach.

Saddam Hussein showed obvious pleasure with the president's letter and Rumsfeld's visit

US State Dept memo
The minutes state: "Rumsfeld told Saddam that the US and Iraq shared interests in preventing Iranian and Syrian expansion."

There is a lot of talk about stopping Iranian oil exports.

The report also sums up Saddam Hussein's reaction: "Saddam Hussein showed obvious pleasure with the President's letter and Rumsfeld's visit."

There is no mention of Mr Rumsfeld having raised the issue of chemical weapons with Saddam Hussein, though he said he did in an interview with CNN in 2002.

A report on another meeting, recorded that he did raise it with the Iraqi Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz, saying that "our efforts to assist were inhibited by certain things that make it difficult for us, citing the use of chemical weapons".

Diplomatic relations between the US and Iraq were restored in 1984.

Past alliances often embarrass governments.

If Saddam Hussein chooses to do so, he could use them to embarrass some of his current enemies.

Real point of trial

Not that it would diminish his own responsibilities. The London based organisation Indict, which has gathered evidence against Saddam Hussein and his associates, has published one eyewitness account of the dictator's personal behaviour.

It is a reminder of what the trial will really be about:

"One of the president's bodyguards brought 30 prisoners out. They were Kurds. The president himself shot them one after another with a Browning pistol.

"Another 30 prisoners were brought and the process was repeated. Saddam Hussein was laughing and obviously enjoying himself. There was blood everywhere - it was like an abattoir...

"Those who were still alive were eventually finished off by the security officers."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3324053.stm


No one said the USA was soley responsible for the problems in Iraq, but they sure helped.

[Saranof]

We still have a video with Rumsfeldt shaking hands with the same man.

[Vance]

No one said the USA was soley responsible for the problems in Iraq, but they sure helped.
And now we're making up for our mistakes. Is that so wrong?

[budanski]

We still have a video with Rumsfeldt shaking hands with the same man.

Compliments of He219:

Just to clarify the repeated reference......


Note the formality in this picture


http://www.random-abstract.com/archives-gm/rumsfeld-sadam-bigger.jpg
CNN.com - Interview With Donald Rumsfeld (http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0209/21/cst.01.html)
MCINTYRE: Well, let me take you back about 20 years ago.
The date, I believe, was December 20th, 1983, you were meeting with Saddam Hussein.
I think we have some video of that, of that meeting. Tell me what was going on during this meeting.
RUMSFELD: Where did you get this video? From the Iraqi television...
MCINTYRE: This is from Iraqi television.
RUMSFELD: When did they give it to you? Recently or back then?
MCINTYRE: No, we've dug this out of the CNN library.
RUMSFELD: I see. Isn't that interesting? There I am.
MCINTYRE: So what was going on here? What were you thinking at the time?
RUMSFELD: Well, Iraq was in a battle, war with Iran. And the United States had just had 241 Marines killed. And President Reagan asked me to take a leave of absence from my company and serve as a temporary special envoy, and I traveled throughout the Middle East for a period of months. And we were trying to get the Syrians to get out of Lebanon and stop killings Americans at the Marine barracks. And among other things, we believed that it would be helpful if Saddam Hussein's Iraq would behave in a way in that region that would be helpful to our goals with respect to Syria and the terrorist threat that existed. And we decided it was worth having me go in and meet with him. In that visit, I cautioned him about the use of chemical weapons, as a matter or fact, and discussed a host of other things.




On the other hand......


France, however, was also a major supplier. When he was prime minister in 1974, Jacques Chirac went to Baghdad to see Saddam Hussein, then the power in Iraq, though not yet the president.

The following year, Saddam Hussein went to France and Prime Minister Chirac showed him round a nuclear plant.

They negotiated the sale to Iraq of two French nuclear reactors. One of them was destroyed in an air raid by the Israelis in 1981 amid fears that Iraq was developing a nuclear weapon.

France also agreed to provide Iraq with 133 Mirage F1 jet fighters over a 10-year period. It is reckoned that during the 1980s, 40% of France's arms exports went to Iraq.

'My dear friend'

In 1987, a French paper published a letter written to Saddam Hussein by Jacques Chirac a few months previously. It began: " My dear friend."

It refers obliquely to "the negotiation which you know about" and to the "co-operation launched more than 12 years ago under our personal joint initiative, in this capital district for the sovereignty, independence and security of your country."

Mr Chirac denied that the "negotiation" meant a discussion about repairing Iraq's nuclear reactors.

The French president has since said that, at the time, many governments supported Iraq in its war against Iran and that Iraq was seen as "progressive".

Indeed many other Western countries - including the United States, Britain, West Germany and Italy - also helped Iraq with equipment and expertise, both civilian and military, and with finance.

Iraq's Arab neighbours in the Gulf, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia among them saw revolutionary Iran as a threat and poured money into Baghdad.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3324053.stm



excerpt from The Sun

1 The French President first met Saddam in 1972 when the pair struck a lucrative oil deal. Chirac described Saddam then as a “personal friend” and little appears to have changed. Chirac is the only Western head of state to know Saddam personally.

2 France has sold the tyrant arms worth £15billion, more than even the Soviets at the height of the Cold War.

3 They have also built two nuclear reactors near Baghdad.

4 Saddam was close to getting an A-bomb before Israeli jets blitzed his facilities in 1981 in a raid condemned by Chirac as “unacceptable”. Without Israel’s hardline act, Saddam could have held the world to ransom with nuclear arms.

5 Chirac is so keen to build on relations with Saddam he has his own special envoy in Baghdad who is so trusted he is even allowed to sit in on Iraqi Cabinet meetings.

6 Despite world opinion, the men have continued to cut deals. Chirac encouraged French firms to help re-arm Iraq after its war with Iran in the 1980s. French companies sold Baghdad warplanes armed with Exocet missiles.

7 Chirac was so keen to help his old pal he even extended him credit when Iraq failed to meet the repayments. France also sold Iraq equipment to improve the accuracy and range of Scud missiles.

8 Despite tough UN trade sanctions, French firms hold massive oil contracts with Iraq. And there are many more in the pipeline — even in the aftermath of a second Gulf War, Chirac has told energy bosses.

9 Time and time again France has turned a blind eye to Iraq’s abuses when they have been exposed by the UN Security Council. It comes as no surprise to diplomats that French firms keep on landing lucrative deals.

10 World leaders were horrified after Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990 but France again helped Saddam. Under pressure from Chirac, then President Francois Mitterrand sent emissaries to 24 countries assuring them France would only participate in the war as a “defensive” measure.


Or did you mean these?

http://www.all-natural.com/images/chiracandsaddam.jpghttp://a1636.g.akamai.net/7/1636/797/b81725404756e3/graphics.boston.com/news/packages/iraq/images/ideas_0302.jpg

[WARPIG]

Other than sounding like a complete moron.. what is Moore's point? Oh... maybe to sell more books! No, that would be completly taken out of context. That doesn't sound like Moore or dicamus19.
Here is a litte more thought.
The British used to be our enemy.. why are we allies now?
Wait, what about Russia, Germany.. hmm.. are Republicans in some sort of conspiracy to befriend all of our old enemies, only to get them close enough to stab them in the back?
Hmmm maybe we could stop free trade and let the Government control who private businesses can and cannot do business with.
Because the US Government is responsible for private companies trading globally with people who might not be our friends 15-20 years from now.
Wait that sounds contradictory... Republicans, who like to enforce rules.. family values.. set standards... allow free trade? So, Democrats.. protectors our constitutional rights above all.. would be able to effectively prevent trade with future threats?

Yeah.. that makes sense. rofl

[Seoulstriker]

oh, you guys. ;) :hug: woot woot woot woot woot

[Deuterium]

Good post Budanski..

[NcDeuce]

http://www.ci.houston.tx.us/departme/person/savvypages/savvygraphics/frankenstein.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39633000/jpg/_39633917_saddamgrab203.jpg

Huh?

[Trigger]

It's true:


budanski ROCKS!!!

so does He219!!!

but ducimus19 does not.

[WARPIG]

Funny how the only people that see Saddam's capture as some ideological event are those who want to use it to bash the US presence there. US soldiers barely reflect any joy in it and assume no change in any mission ahead. Liberal drama mongers seem to be eating this up though.

[ShotOver]

http://www.opflash.org/pt/troll2.jpg

[Jack Mehoff]

Hey, Stalin used to be our friend until.............

ONLY America supported Saddam? There is no such thing only America

[Skaman]

No one said the USA was soley responsible for the problems in Iraq, but they sure helped.
And now we're making up for our mistakes. Is that so wrong?

You see, thats the irony. Your not.

[Vance]

So taking Huessein out of power was not? :bash:

[StarvingStudent47]

Since nothing else worthwhile is going on in this thread, here's the latest Penny Arcade (http://www.penny-arcade.com/) comic:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2003/20031219l.jpg

[usa320]

This guy rarely adds decent conversation to this site, never posts photos or makes decent comments in regards to military or photos. THe only reason he is at this site is to troll.

I think its time he be booted.

[Beowulf]

http://www.berkeleybreathed.com/Images/outland_full.jpg

[WARPIG]

Hey.. don't boot him. Even trolls have a right to opinion.
"Opinions are like assholes.. everyone has one." In the case of dicamus19 his asshole and his opinion seem to emit the same material.

[Seiyuuki]

http://money.cnn.com/2002/01/22/news/column_sportsbiz/ichiro.jpg

http://www.buddycom.com/japan/images/ichiro.jpg

http://www.japan-zone.com/modern/pix/ichiro.jpg

[Skaman]

This guy rarely adds decent conversation to this site, never posts photos or makes decent comments in regards to military or photos. THe only reason he is at this site is to troll.

I think its time he be booted.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6517
-
That is not the reason, you are wrong. Unlike North America, having more children provides a better economic future for your family. It is likely that 25% of your children will die, thus they need to have 5-7 offspring to work farms, sell their bodies through prostitution, and beg on the streets; the family must do this to survive. Africa needs jobs, only then will the need for large families be hindered, returning the population to a healthy static level that can meet the carrying capacity of the region. Unfortunately, jobs require education, a long and arduous process.

In turn, having more children spreads the epidemic of aids, additionally, producing more offspring than can be fed results in starvation. Homelessness and disease follow behind in a similar pattern. It is a vicious cycle.


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6318

These ar two posts I did in the last week. Confrontational? Hardly. I think you meerly dont like what I have to say as I challange your false pre-conceptions of American foreign policy.

This BS about 'me being proven wrong' is just as spurious.

[Vance]

This BS about 'me being proven wrong' is just as spurious.
rofl

[ShotOver]

*yawn*

:roll:

****in` ducimus19...

[usa320]

im with PT.

**** him.

[Seiyuuki]

http://sportsmed.starwave.com/media/pg2/2002/0628/photo/martinez.jpg

http://staff.washington.edu/meganw/boy/edgar3.jpg

http://www.collectingichiro.com/ud01-f6.jpg

[Skaman]

Baseball. Worst sport ever....

[GRENDEL X]

Ducimus19,

Keep on posting ! The fact that they may or may not want to listen is inmaterial. All I can say to the folks out there is find out for yourself and draw your own conclusions.

[Seiyuuki]

Baseball. Worst sport ever....

For a Canadian, No ****, Sherlock!!! 'cause the Montreal Expos have been sucking ever since the team was created.

http://ca.yimg.com/i/cf/*******/20020925/i/1678327831.jpg

http://reds.enquirer.com/2002/09/28/reds2_zoom.jpg

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Theres a couple things I want to know, Do people actually think America is a safer place today then the day before Saddams capture? Do you think Saddam was involved with international terrorism (from what I've seen majority of Americans think 9-11 was partly Saddams doing).

Im not trolling here these are questions that I've wanted to ask for awhile, I expect actuall response's not trolling (because I know how much people love to troll).

[Vance]

(from what I've seen majority of Americans think 9-11 was partly Saddams doing).
That's totally untrue. Seeing as how you're in Canada, I don't think you are in a position to say that.

[NcDeuce]

Baseball. Worst sport ever....

For a Canadian, No ****, Sherlock!!! 'cause the Montreal Expos have been sucking ever since the team was created.

http://ca.yimg.com/i/cf/*******/20020925/i/1678327831.jpg

http://reds.enquirer.com/2002/09/28/reds2_zoom.jpg

Javier Vazquez is on the NY Yankees now. Vladi is either already on the Baltimore Orioles or is on the verge of signing. All the Expos have now is Jose Vidro. ;)

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Well Vance if its untrue prove me wrong, why were they argueing over it on Crossfire on CNN and Fox?
http://www.rense.com/general41/sd7.htm
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030906.wpoll0906/BNStory/International/
How come 7 out of 10 Americans believe Saddam was some-how tied to 911?

I personally dont think you have any right to tell me what my postition is Vance, just because I live in Canada doesn't mean I dont have access to American Tv/websites.

[Vance]

But you don't talk to Americans everyday, face to face do you?

[Seiyuuki]

Javier Vazquez is on the NY Yankees now. Vladi is either already on the Baltimore Orioles or is on the verge of signing. All the Expos have now is Jose Vidro. ;)

You got to be ****ting me!!!!!!!!!! Guerrero with the Orioles??????????? Damn...with Tejada and Guerrero in the line-up for Orioles, maybe they can now provide the Yankees with some actual challenge in that division.

No offense to Red Sox friends, but their track record isn't that great when going up against the Yanks, especially toward the end of the regular season and during the post season.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Well if you wanna get technical Vance I do talk to Americans over the phone at msn, thanks Seiyuuki for the PM it cleared things up for me.

[Skaman]

Don’t worry BC, they will find some way to 'disprove' you. Keep the good posts coming!. The pure idiocy of the war in Iraq is that it follows similar suit to the 'war on terror', yet there are no correlations. The motives in Iraq are in stark contrast to that of Afghanistan. The US should be after terrorist cells, not Saddam and his US supplied nerve gas. Why did the US not invade Saudi? This is an important question that needs to be raised!

[firwinn]

Nice posting ducimus19

its gotta suck to be an ignorant american when u read this post :)

not all americans! but most of u :hug:

[Durandal]

its gotta suck to be an ignorant american when u read this post :)

Hmmm not really...

Two things happened in Iraw in regards to terrorism...well three, but the third is sort of in Limbo right now.

One
A source of funding has dried up for Hezbollah and Ad Hamas...two terrorist groups. Sure, Iraq is not the only source of funding but it is a start.

Two
Whether it was planned for or not, Iraw is a magnet currently for Fundamentalists and Jihadists. It takes the heat off other areas, divides forces, and squanders resources that regardless of what some might think, definately NOT unlimited.

Three
Provides, fingers crossed, a democratic center in the Middle East. Iraq, literally, has the ability to become the leading Middle Eastern/Persian Gulf nation in both resources, allies, education, and business opportunities. If one looks into the future, it is quite possible for this to happen. I am not looking for a pro-American Iraqi government, I just want one elected by the people that actually represents the people. Why would someone want to live in Saudi Arabi when you can get an education and have an opportunity to propser in a nation that is free and open?

Has America dropped the ball on this? In some ways yes, in some ways no. It pisses me off that we were not better prepared, but I think overall, things are going relatively well. To simply stand there and say bad, bad, bad is so f*cking annoying and counter productive.

[Ratamacue]

its gotta suck to be an ignorant american when u read this post :)

not all americans! but most of u :hug:
Remember kids, generalizations and stereotypes are the way to go!

[usa320]

I didnt want to have to do this, but im left with few alternatives.

http://ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/sucks1.jpg

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Well Im confused here again, I thought the war in Iraq was about WMD/removing an evil regime (take your pick). Now if I may, I did some research into Saddam, Hezbollah and Ad Hamas.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/decade/sect5.html

Now according to your own Whitehouse's information the only terrorists "in country" in Iraq before the United States invaded was "Mujahedin-e-Khalq,Palestine Liberation Front" also including offering amounts of money to "martyr's" of Palestinian's who attack Israel. Im not saying its not possible that they were funding them, but according to this Whitehouse report they are not linked together.

Iraq is a magnet for terrorists now, its become the place to go if you want to attack American Soldiers.

I'm not trying to start a flame war, I'd just like to see some facts on the Hezbollah and Ad Hamas terrorists groups that they are and were in Iraq before the Us/coalition invasion.
http://www.terrorismanswers.com/groups/hezbollah.html
http://www.terrorismanswers.com/groups/hamas.html
According to these two sites they are also not know to be in Iraq. Is it possible that they are being funded from Iraq, sure but I didnt see any articles that linked funding directlly to Iraqi's. Ironically most of these groups are funded by Saudi's.

[Skaman]

Ironically most of these groups are funded by Saudi's

How many times have I said this? Yet the USA will do nothing in SA as they have billions invested within the US and maintain firm 'diplomatic relations'

Talk about acting in the best interest of the American people. :roll:

The patronage pigs need to be brought to justice....

[StarvingStudent47]

Hey Ducimus,

Do you ever get tired of posting the same thing over and over and over again? Just wondering...

[Seiyuuki]

"Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer."

[WARPIG]

How many times are you going to contradict yourself dicamus19?
You badmouth the US for it's "cowboy" foreign policy.. yet criticise the fact that we have not taken military action to Saudi Arabia. How naive can you possibly be? Do you think that knowing the extent of activity that terror has from SA that we just choose to ignore it? Or, would you rather believe that the CIA is only as succesful as what the public knows. Let's look at that.. is it more logical that an organization like that blunders publicly and is completely inept or that the successes of the CIA are not celebrated, publicized, nor reported? Hmmm that would make great headlines. Money lines blocked. Or Communication network tapped. How about Research Confirmed. Yeah.. CIA should call Fox news with this stuff.
As much as you would like to think that the world is "black and white" the truth is never that simple. That is probably why you narrow your view to such small details. I guess the more complicated truths called reality are just a little too much for such a simple mind. Just like the way people like to focus on WMD, and Saddam when it comes to Iraq. What the hell are we still there for? Oil? Puhlease. Why haven't we just locked Iraq down with a little Marshall Law then? Could you people be any more narrow minded? No one thinks of the US as some Great White Hope. Yet, idiots seem to crawl out from every greasy corner to call us some sort of great evil. Every little action is some kind of idiotic conspiracy. Think for yourselves people. Stop focusing on the two dimensional picture you choose to comment on. Look around and get the whole picture.

[usa320]

Now according to your own Whitehouse's information the only terrorists "in country" in Iraq before the United States invaded was "Mujahedin-e-Khalq,Palestine Liberation Front"

False.

Ever hear of a wonderful group of People called "Ansar Al- Islam"?

Known for there great home movies of cats and dogs getting bombarded with Ricin and Anthrax.

:roll:

[ibstolidude]

Well Vance if its untrue prove me wrong, why were they argueing over it on Crossfire on CNN and Fox?
http://www.rense.com/general41/sd7.htm
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030906.wpoll0906/BNStory/International/
How come 7 out of 10 Americans believe Saddam was some-how tied to 911?

I personally dont think you have any right to tell me what my postition is Vance, just because I live in Canada doesn't mean I dont have access to American Tv/websites.
that wasn't cnn or crossfire that you quoted.... Bub.

But and I asked about 86 people if they or anyone they know were interviewed...all answered NO..that is a ****ty survey sample..

I did however ask 5 canadians if eating **** is funny and 4 of them said YES so I anticipate a new Headline in the Am to read:
Four out of five Canadians eat **** for Fun!

it is about as scientific.

[ibstolidude]

its gotta suck to be an ignorant american when u read this post :)
Two
Whether it was planned for or not, Iraw is a magnet currently for Fundamentalists and Jihadists. It takes the heat off other areas, divides forces, and squanders resources that regardless of what some might think, definately NOT unlimited.
- BINGO give the man a cigar!!!

counter attack, intel collection and manuever a re all limited in the in the US by mandate and nature...but in Iraq??? well the reigns are much more lifted..and teh contstraints much removed