Morality

[Saranof]

As posted on the Trackpads forum


Is Osama Right?
By
Nov 16, 2003, 12:11


Osama says Americans have no morales nor values. Is he right?

I do not support the attacks of 11 September 2001. Nor do I support the attack in 1993. I do not believe that killing people is the answer to your complaints, nor your arguements. However, I listen to what our enemies say and try to draw good from their intent.

Osama Bin Laden, as well as many others in the Muslim world, claim that Americans and Westerners have a degraded sense of morality.

When I turn on my television, I cannot help but to agree with them.

The latest installment of "Joe Millionaire" is a perfect example of the degredation of Western society. here we see television executives take a good man and put him in a situation involving incredibly beautiful European women. The premise is to deceive these women into believing this "Joe" is a millionaire. They couple this with the true statement that Joe is a cowboy. Joe is in fact a cowboy, but only makes about $10,000 (USD) per year. Far from the $80 million they portray to the women. In the ensuing greed fighting of the women and betrayl by the cowboy and the show's producers, we are subjected to the deception and promiscuity of the show's stars.

This is called reality TV. Remember when Reality TV started with the likes of Donahue, Sally-Jesse, and Ricky Lake? These programs show the worst of society. Unfortunately, these are the programs which can be seen on satellite around the world.

Those outside our scope think this is reality in the West. Who can blame them? We market this as reality. Reality TV to me is much different though. If we wanted a true reality show, let me produce it and do the title of reality justice. I would produce a show called "My ****ty Life." here cameras would follow a man or woman around their life, uninterupted by ****** innuendos and cat-fighting. You would get to see a person who hates their job, has trouble making ends meet when it is time to pay the bills, drives a jalopy that breaks down at the most inopportune times, and in general leads a quite average life. That folks, is reality. Beautiful women, caviar, and Italian mansions are not reality. They are the reality of only the bougouse. Those who make up much less than 1% of the world's population.

Yet, these are the programs that draw the highest ratings and have executives drooling when Nielson publishes their list. Consequently, advertisers pay the big bucks for these time slots to peddle their sexy clothing or alcohol that will make you more attractive to the opposite ***.

With this modern "reality" is it any wonder Osama Bin Laden says Americans are immoral?






Opinions?


Note: just because you might think that is right dosn't mean you support Osama and the likes :)

[WARPIG]

US values have definately fallen in the past few decades. Socially we have been losing on a gradual decline. Morally the foundations are still there. Our kids know the moral fundamentals that our grandfathers knew. Socially however we seem to be moving into more and more extreme forms of degradation.
Don't get moral ideals and social acceptances too mixed up. Yes they both directly impact each other but there is a difference.

Our ideals on the treatment of human kind has always been steady. Our acceptance of culture and diversity has grown exponentially compared to our past.
Islamic tolerance has not grown however.
European, social tolerance has hardly moved in several generations.

If your picture of the US is based on television.... shame on you. You should know better. Even if your view of Americans is based on CNN, BBC or other news media.. it is far from clear.

My biggest complaint of my country's social culture is our failure to support our family units. Our social climate is far from many other cultures where family is the most important thing. Religious faith seems a cultural taboo. This is a trend however. More and more young kids are taking a more .. ethical.. attitude. The constant bombardment of "reality" TV and unethical social norms is prooving distastful to more and more of our youths.
I lived in europe for several years... this is not a trend exclusive to the US. Most countries experience this. Our culture just happens to be in the spotlight the most.
None of this is the reason why Osama Bin Laden kills. He is a murdurous zealot.. killing is what he does. In his world, his reality, striking out at us is how he gains status. In his mind, killing those who do not think as you do will end in peace. Indeed... if all those who oppose you are dead.. would there be peace? Or would human nature simply find another difference to hate?

[NcDeuce]

The U.S. is not the only nation with declining morals, which I hate to say. Mankind, as a whole, is under a constant degradation. That's how life goes, the Greeks predicted it and their philosophy was moderation is the key. Smart civilization, eh?

By the way, Osama is saying we have no morals? This coming from a guy who funds terrorism and kills thousands of innocent people? WTF :fork:

[SamHamam]

Our ideals on the treatment of human kind has always been steady.

Not the opion one would form from reading many of the US based responses on the "the few the proud the not very bright" thread on this forum

[WARPIG]

Well to quote.. "Opinions are like assholes.. everybody has one."

If people want to focus on a few Americans, or a few muslims, or a few Germans,and French.. well then it could be said that the world is full of war-mongering, ******ly depraved Americans, hateful, murderous Islamic zealots, and financially driven Eurotrash with short term memories and warped moral hypocracy.
Generalizations are always drawn from limited details. We focus on the worst aspects of people who are not like us.. then base our opinions on it. Human nature... it takes a little intelligence and a lot of faith to step back and seek the truth.

[Kitsune]

Warpig wrote:
European, social tolerance has hardly moved in several generations.


And YOU claim to have lived in Europe? This statement is simply ridiculous.


Sorry this talk about "lost morals" is nonsense. Societies have changed, true, and they are still changing. This can be frightening. Sure there is television with all its vices. And if one sees *** as a cardinal sin we have indeed degraded. Prostitution for example isn't illegal here in Germany any more. The girls even have to pay taxes! But we have changed in other ways: No Death penalty anymore. We do not make wars as easily as 60 or 80 years ago (10.000 people killed? So what?). We think more about ecology. About human rights. Foreigners are readily accepted nearly everywhere. And I DO live here. I see ite every day.

Look to the United States: During WW II they tried to kill as much of the German or Japanese civilian pouplation as possible during air raids....today they try to minimize civilian losses. Same with there own soldiers: losses in the tens of thousands which were accepted even during Vietnam are now totally inaccaptable. Or take the treatment of racial minorities: Blacks and Indians were treated as inferior during WWII times. In fact you had an aphartheid society! Did that not change? Colored Americans are now seen as equal in most places, they become respected lawyers, doctors, generals, or starship captains (just kidding...but a series like Deep Space 9 with a Black in a commanding role would have been impossible during WWII (ok...there was no television back then, too)...it would have be seen as downright ridiculous).

So do not believe society has degraded. Fact is it became better in many instances. And summed up, I would say we are moving in the right direction. But we will see.

p-)

[Saranof]

Well to quote.. "Opinions are like assholes.. everybody has one."

If people want to focus on a few Americans, or a few muslims, or a few Germans,and French.. well then it could be said that the world is full of war-mongering, ******ly depraved Americans, hateful, murderous Islamic zealots, and financially driven Eurotrash with short term memories and warped moral hypocracy.
Generalizations are always drawn from limited details. We focus on the worst aspects of people who are not like us.. then base our opinions on it. Human nature... it takes a little intelligence and a lot of faith to step back and seek the truth.

Foockin yeah

[WARPIG]

Look, I didn't intend to offend any Europeans. I do have a slightly biased view. I loved my time in Germany and have great respect for the culture. My reference for European culture as being unmoving in their social climate was a generalization. I apologize. I do believe "in-General" that the social ethics in most European culture is really quite rigid. I know that the racial tension with Germans and Turks is still there... but that is not what I mean. The US had our phases of materialism. I think we may be headed toward that again. With the popular music and culture so focused on money during our poor economy.. as our economic state improves our materialistic tendencies will become the norm. In contrast.. the European community is changes a little more subtley. Since the EU that focus of materialism has become the norm.
Social ******ity and the traditional family units in the US have been in jeapordy in the past decades and show no sign of improvement. Europe is seeing similar changes but in slower, more subtle affect.
This is a good thing but it is that way because of the rigid climate of Europe. France is the more obvious example of this. Even with the success of the EU, the different cultures are still perfectly happy being seperate.

It has been a few years since I was in Europe last.. so don't forget that my opinion is still general. I think that it is not too biased though.

[TriggerPuller]

As posted on the Trackpads forum


Is Osama Right?
By
Nov 16, 2003, 12:11


Osama says Americans have no morales nor values. Is he right?

I do not support the attacks of 11 September 2001. Nor do I support the attack in 1993. I do not believe that killing people is the answer to your complaints, nor your arguements. However, I listen to what our enemies say and try to draw good from their intent.

Osama Bin Laden, as well as many others in the Muslim world, claim that Americans and Westerners have a degraded sense of morality.

When I turn on my television, I cannot help but to agree with them.

The latest installment of "Joe Millionaire" is a perfect example of the degredation of Western society. here we see television executives take a good man and put him in a situation involving incredibly beautiful European women. The premise is to deceive these women into believing this "Joe" is a millionaire. They couple this with the true statement that Joe is a cowboy. Joe is in fact a cowboy, but only makes about $10,000 (USD) per year. Far from the $80 million they portray to the women. In the ensuing greed fighting of the women and betrayl by the cowboy and the show's producers, we are subjected to the deception and promiscuity of the show's stars.

This is called reality TV. Remember when Reality TV started with the likes of Donahue, Sally-Jesse, and Ricky Lake? These programs show the worst of society. Unfortunately, these are the programs which can be seen on satellite around the world.

Those outside our scope think this is reality in the West. Who can blame them? We market this as reality. Reality TV to me is much different though. If we wanted a true reality show, let me produce it and do the title of reality justice. I would produce a show called "My ****ty Life." here cameras would follow a man or woman around their life, uninterupted by ****** innuendos and cat-fighting. You would get to see a person who hates their job, has trouble making ends meet when it is time to pay the bills, drives a jalopy that breaks down at the most inopportune times, and in general leads a quite average life. That folks, is reality. Beautiful women, caviar, and Italian mansions are not reality. They are the reality of only the bougouse. Those who make up much less than 1% of the world's population.

Yet, these are the programs that draw the highest ratings and have executives drooling when Nielson publishes their list. Consequently, advertisers pay the big bucks for these time slots to peddle their sexy clothing or alcohol that will make you more attractive to the opposite ***.

With this modern "reality" is it any wonder Osama Bin Laden says Americans are immoral?






Opinions?


Note: just because you might think that is right dosn't mean you support Osama and the likes :) This is complete BS. It is a ****ing T.V. show it has nothing to do with real life,this is what we have come to comparing a mass murdering religious fanatic to our moral ineptitude(alleged). Who the **** wrote this piece. Damn liberal ahole wont even put his name to it. I would stick my boot in his eye if I met this guy,what a POS!!!!!

TP

[WARPIG]

Funny.
According to this logic.. I am wondering why Osama didn't bomb the **** out of Saddam's palaces. or France, or Italy, or..

[cut]

The article is right in the sense that if you go to India and try and explain to them how there's no problem with *** before marriage in the West. And you realise how immoral the West is to them, and it doesn't matter if this kind of thing is fine in our society.

Could go on but tis boring enough as it is.

[Saranof]

Funny.
According to this logic.. I am wondering why Osama didn't bomb the **** out of Saddam's palaces. or France, or Italy, or..

Because Saddam was on his side.
One factor is the he probly can't make war on other muslims. Not that his war has any religious significance, but he would loose alot of support if he had done that.

[Ratamacue]

Last time I checked, there were quite a few Muslims in the World Trade Center. Osama's war has no base or consistency.

[TriggerPuller]

The article is right in the sense that if you go to India and try and explain to them how there's no problem with *** before marriage in the West. And you realise how immoral the West is to them, and it doesn't matter if this kind of thing is fine in our society.

Could go on but tis boring enough as it is.muslime are the biggest hypocrites when it come to morality. No *** before marriage or drinking yeah right! go to Bahrain and you will see tons of drunk Muslims and then have them try to tell you what is wrong with the west. They live in a world of spun lies.

TP

[California Joe]

Condemnations of the current lack of values an morality in society have been happening since ancient Rome. They get more conservative then there is always a backlash where anything seems to go as acceptable. Time is not linear in this case it's cyclical.

[Trigger]

Are you on the nitro again? rofl

[WARPIG]

Joe? Is that you? That didn't sound smartass or cynical at all! You hit the nail right on the head bro!
Is you mom using your computer again?

[California Joe]

Joe? Is that you? That didn't sound smartass or cynical at all! You hit the nail right on the head bro!
Is you mom using your computer again?

Yes, this is Joe's Mom. He's busy watching Chicago. Again :roll:

[farmgirl]

Joe? Is that you? That didn't sound smartass or cynical at all! You hit the nail right on the head bro!
Is you mom using your computer again?

Yes, this is Joe's Mom. He's busy watching Chicago. Again :roll:

damn.... this just confirms it... I should have known he was gay after he told me his favorite movie was Beaches, and Bette Midler was his favorite singer.

[Minjin]

I agree with the article, so long as it is not JUST American morals and values that are being discussed. It is all of "Western" society that is degrading like that. Not to mention the overprotectiveness and the ridiculous lengths such things as political correctness are taken to. Look at most kids these days. Little respect for their elders, little appreciation for how good they really do have it, and little regard for their fellow man. It is not the most inspiring feeling to watch shows like Joe Millionaire or even to watch a lot of the kids out there these days. But we do live in a free society, so in theory we are free to act to better these shortcomings. And that, if you ask me, is the point.

[Trigger]

Joe? Is that you? That didn't sound smartass or cynical at all! You hit the nail right on the head bro!
Is you mom using your computer again?

Yes, this is Joe's Mom. He's busy watching Chicago. Again :roll:

damn.... this just confirms it... I should have known he was gay after he told me his favorite movie was Beaches, and Bette Midler was his favorite singer.
Joe you bastard! Beaches was our movie... I can't believe you shared that with farmgirl. :oops:

[TriggerPuller]

I didnt mean to call them Muslime's but now that it came out that way it is so fitting!!!!!

TP

[farmgirl]

Joe? Is that you? That didn't sound smartass or cynical at all! You hit the nail right on the head bro!
Is you mom using your computer again?

Yes, this is Joe's Mom. He's busy watching Chicago. Again :roll:

damn.... this just confirms it... I should have known he was gay after he told me his favorite movie was Beaches, and Bette Midler was his favorite singer.
Joe you bastard! Beaches was our movie... I can't believe you shared that with farmgirl. :oops: :cantbeli:
Oh... you're THAT Trigger.... NOW I get it..... :oops: How could I have been so naive???

[California Joe]

Simmah don Blondie.

[Salty Dog]

Those outside our scope think this is reality in the West. Who can blame them?

i can ****ing blame them because i don't ****ing care what they think.

[Seiyuuki]

I wonder if the show "Queer Eyes for the Straight Guy" can be use as a torturing method toward Islamics' extremists?

[Trigger]

Little known fact:
That show is actually a spin-off of an old Marty Feldman show...

It was called 'Straight Guy with the Queer Eyes'

Thank you.

I'll be here all week.

[Falco]

I have to agree that, fortunately or unfortunately, the moral values of western societies aren't what they used to be. As some people before me said : we used to find that it was acceptable for 10 000 soldiers to lose their lives, for 90% of society to live in extreme poverety while the other 10% live in wealth, we used to consider that the lives of workers in factories were expandable (look at the unions now), we used to think that people of color were inferior. Many things have changed in society and I guess that bad ones come with the good ones. Now maybe Ben Laden has a point, but he's definately not the kind of person that can teach us some savoir vivre. I don't consider ambutation of a thief's hand as an acceptable punisment, neither do I accept his treating of women, jews, christians, hindus like rubbish.

Falco

[California Joe]

Little known fact:
That show is actually a spin-off of an old Marty Feldman show...

It was called 'Straight Guy with the Queer Eyes'

Thank you.

I'll be here all week.

Abby somebody, abby Normal.....

Funny bastard.

[bishop1]

I dont like the fact that so many people in America are stupid. And lazy. And instead of trying to fix that, they take advantage of whatever they can to get by. And i have a problem with however million of people are on unemployment and welfare who could have a job, theyd just rather collect the check and take money from the government, people and causes that might actually need it. Now i live in America, so i dont know how it is in other countrys. I love our country, and our government, but people suck ass and are stupid as a whole, and the way society is getting its like we have to adjust the way the world works for the stupid underacheivers or else were not being fair. And part of it is the governmnets and whoever elses fault, but it all goes back to the asshole who is too stupid and immoral to know what to do and what the right thing is, if they even care, which they probably wouldnt because the right thing is never easy. "Why should i get a job when i could get high and go to the mall and wait for my welfare check"? I dont have any problems with my country, but i see them, and as bad as they are its still cool to know with all these problems and sorry ass people living in the country, there are enough good people to come through and help keep this the greastest country in the world.

[California Joe]

Assholes should all get jobs and post on internet forums like the rest of us. Bastards.

[martinexsquaddie]

when I hear somebody talking about the falling moral standards in the the west. I get suspicious.
well **** you I don't live in a society where church or state can tell me what to do. where parts of society can be picked on because of there *** the color of the skin or who they choose to have *** with.
Don't like crap TV don't watch it.
things maynot be perfect but the 1950's are gone there never coming back and they were not a golden age. A book about a mythical god is not a foundation of a rational society

[Shake n Bake]

The more things change, The more they remain the same.


The world was full of scumbags and degenerates two thousand years ago...Just like its full of scumbags and degenerates today.(I'am looking at you, Joe)

[Saranof]

Those outside our scope think this is reality in the West. Who can blame them?

i can f*** blame them because i don't f*** care what they think.


Yes, and then you get planes crashing through your towers :D

[Roger Rabbit]

things maynot be perfect but the 1950's are gone there never coming back and they were not a golden age. A book about a mythical god is not a foundation of a rational society
rofl Thats very Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Holy Grail quote being more or less
"a watery tart handing out swords from a lake is no basis for a hierarchically structured society."

[California Joe]

The more things change, The more they remain the same.


The world was full of scumbags and degenerates two thousand years ago...Just like its full of scumbags and degenerates today.(I'am looking at you, Joe)


Mommmmmmmmmm ShakeNBake won't stop looking at me....

[Durandal]

Hehehe hold on just second...slow down!

rofl

Sorry, I could have sworn Bin Laden planned this attack where you know, 3000 INNOCENT people were killed.

*sniff*

Then I agree, America has no morals.

[Durandal]

I blame Grand Theft Auto III: Vice City















































































































;)

[Saranof]

Hehehe hold on just second...slow down!

rofl

Sorry, I could have sworn Bin Laden planned this attack where you know, 3000 INNOCENT people were killed.

*sniff*

Then I agree, America has no morals.

Just because he did something very wrong dosn't mean that our moral belifes are wrong, does it? :roll:

[Durandal]

Just because he did something very wrong dosn't mean that our moral belifes are wrong, does it? :roll:

Man, I hate it when you have to actually explain a joke. Was it really THAT lame? ;)

[NcDeuce]

http://www.fast-rewind.com/startrek41.jpg

[NcDeuce]

C'mon guys, if you don't believe society has for the most part degraded...just flip your TV on.

Before...
http://www.sitcomsonline.com/ilovelucycast.jpg


Now...
http://www.vmresource.com/south-park.jpg

http://gfx.dagbladet.no/magasinet/2002/10/29/jackass.jpg

Not saying these shows suck, it's just evident society has somewhat degraded itself.

[Durandal]

In Rome you used to watch folks get eaten by Lions and thrusting spears into each other's gut, now we play violent video games and watch movies of the same ilk.

I know some might argue otherwise, but I think that might JUST be considered a fairly large improvement.

Then again, maybe not...

[martinexsquaddie]

1950s exactly how many women and blacks in the US Goverment
2003 Black woman and senior ex general both in goverment
point proven
score two for 2003
plus jackass is way funnier and pisses off christians so another point

[Roger Rabbit]

Jackass is brilliant, the movie and the extras on the DVD were sheer comic stupidity.

Southpark is pretty damn good. Behind the sick jokes, racist, xenophobia, homophobia, anti-semitism, general piss taking of pretty much everything then they do sometimes make some pretty good points.

And the Waltons and Little House on the Prarie sucked to put it in 11year old language.

[Ratamacue]

South Park isn't actually racist/xenophobic/homophobic/anti-semitic, but rather it's a satire of all those things, and a pretty ingenius one at that.

[The Walrus]

Last time I checked, there were quite a few Muslims in the World Trade Center. Osama's war has no base or consistency.

Bin Ladens whole Jihad thingy has little to do with morals or religion, America is target #1 mainly because it's the big cheese, as far as the islamic extremists are concerned America is this huge alien power that has come to take their way of life, rape their country and make them slaves, and that they have to fight it like they fought the previous super-powers like the Ottoman, British and Roman empires. The main thing is that they don't see America as being any different in their motives than these previous empires, and so they are embarking on the same crusade they embarked on against these previous empires.

[StarvingStudent47]

South Park isn't actually racist/xenophobic/homophobic/anti-semitic, but rather it's a satire of all those things, and a pretty ingenius one at that.

Yeah. It isn't in the least bit anti-semitic or bigoted in any way. Yeah, it's got jokes that involve African-Americans (Chef), Jews (Kyle), disabled people (Timmy), and gays (big gay Al, Mr. Garrison). But they're FUNNY and NOT HATEFUL. When people actually watch entire episodes instead of quoting out of context, there's always a positive, constructive point about society. So I say more power to Trey Parker and Matt Stone. Their show is funnier than I Love Lucy ever was.

Anyway, Robert Smith of The Cure played Mothra on South Park and beat up Barbara Streisand. How much cooler can you get?

On a more serious note, I Love Lucy was HARDLY a reflection of all of society in the 1950s. It was a reflection of the 1% of people who actually have a perfect life. As for the rest of people:

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/history/brinkley/3651/photos/sixties/Birmingham3.jpg

http://www.hippy.com/trip/birmingham63.jpg

I'll take 2003, thank you very much.

[California Joe]

This kind of thing always ebbs and flows. Take the images of women in American movies. 20's had scandalous vamps as well as women being tied to railroad tracks by Simon LeGree. 30's the Depression is full blown and the country becomes more conservative again as if the roaring 20's precipitated a punishment of biblical proportions. 40's had Kate Hepburn and Bettie Davis, Barbara Stanwick and Rita Hayworth et al, strong intelligent, elegant women in the roles they played. The women always had the best lines in those movies, a product of more women in the workforce etc. because of WWII. Then morality became an issue and women in the 50's were supposed to shut up and get back in the kitchen like June Cleaver, or act retarded and try to trap your boss into marrying you like Doris Day. Backlash from all that was the late 60's.....

[Saranof]

Last time I checked, there were quite a few Muslims in the World Trade Center. Osama's war has no base or consistency.

Bin Ladens whole Jihad thingy has little to do with morals or religion, America is target #1 mainly because it's the big cheese, as far as the islamic extremists are concerned America is this huge alien power that has come to take their way of life, rape their country and make them slaves, and that they have to fight it like they fought the previous super-powers like the Ottoman, British and Roman empires. The main thing is that they don't see America as being any different in their motives than these previous empires, and so they are embarking on the same crusade they embarked on against these previous empires.


You have stated my view of this question, thank you :D



I can agree with most of you that we have come a long way since the gladiator games and the like.
But what about respect between people? In the 50's you wouln't dream of attacking or insultning strangers on the street (at least not here) but those things are quite common now. Views?

[TacoDelRio]

Does widdle Osama need a hug? Is he sad cause' the US isn't nice anymore?

Morality is up to the individual. I am moral. Er, I have morals. Something along those lines. Either way, you wanna jack off, screw people over, and look like an immoral f**kface in front of the whole world, well, that's up to you. Hopefully your "battle buddy" will stop you before you embarrass yourself, or the USA.

Just a few thoughts. :hug:

[2Sheds_Jackson]

The US's major export to the world is not steel, or wood or food - it's entertainment.

Wherever you travel, there's American TV & movies, usually dubbed into the local language. This is what the world sees of us. This his what the world thinks we are.

I lived on a small island off Honduras for a few months, doing drug intradiction work. We had some Honduran soldiers with us & they would watch our movies with us at night (yes, as the SATCOM guy, I stole satellite TV for us all). These guys grew up as peasants & were absolutely mesmerized by the movies. And they believed what they saw as freekin' gospel truth.

So it goes with the rest of the world. To them, thanks to the absolute bilge we put out as entertainment, we are the devil incarnate. Judging by that, I'd have to agree. I can't let my kids watch TV without supervising them. God only knows what they'd wind up seeing. This was not always the case. We have made the choice that the almighty dollar is more important than preserving our society.

The Islamists are absolutely terrified that their younger generation will be seduced by our culture & abandon the old ways. Of course, that would leave their leaders, who's power is based in religion, out in the cold. I mean, if you're watching Jackass, Girls Gone Wild & Crank Yankers, you're prolly not spending much time down at the mosque.

As for ACTUAL American society, as with all Western societies, it's moving progressively to the left. Not as quickly as in the 60' & 70's but it's still moving that way. For example - JFK who's the poster boy for the Democrats would be cast out of his party today as a hard line right-winger. His social & economic policies are closer to Ronald Reagan than to any Democrat. I guess it will continue in that direction until some cataclysmic event shocks us into a reversal.

[Saranof]

I think Saddam once aired Jerry Springer on national tv to show the Iraquis how stupid some people are. Of course, if the only picture you get of americans is off THAT show than you would want to kill em' all ;)

[fantassin]

Very good last post, congratulations. Your TV is not doing your country any favour. Since it's unescapable, wherever you are in the world, it's difficult escaping this image. When you think "Starsky and Hutch" is still played in some parts of the world...

As for the movement towards the Left, if Bush is left, then I suppose all hope is lost...

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Very good last post, congratulations. Your TV is not doing your country any favour. Since it's unescapable, wherever you are in the world, it's difficult escaping this image. When you think "Starsky and Hutch" is still played in some parts of the world...

As for the movement towards the Left, if Bush is left, then I suppose all hope is lost...

Well, Bush 43 is obviously to the right of the current batch of Democrats, but is clearly not as conservative as recent Republicans (Reagan, Nixon etc.) Things constantly move left.

If 9/11 had happened 50 years ago, we'd have nuked first & asked questions later.

Hell, with their social positions, none of the current Dems could have hoped to gain national office even 20 short years ago! They would have been considered nut jobs. 50 years ago they wouldn't have been able to be in politics period. And 100 years ago, they'd prolly have been in jail!

The thing that fascinates me is - how far left can Western society go before something gives? And that something would be the very fabric of society - you'd have a total collapse as all national unity would be lost in the pursuit of individual freedom. There's a line somewhere. My guess is that we're currently sensing that we're getting close to the line & have put some brakes on. Witness France's proposed banning of Muslim headgear in public school etc. in the name of preserving a secular society. Interesting that others seem to be "sensing" this too.