Was your country ever colonized?

[Schiller]

Was your country ever colonixed, or occupied by a foreign power for at least a brief span of time?

[NcDeuce]

:lol:

[Roger Rabbit]

Well quite a large proportion of the World has been colonised by us nasty Brits at one time or anothers.

Suppose you could say the Romans, Saxons, Vikings and Normans colonised Britain to a degree.

[NcDeuce]

WHo said no?

[Roger Rabbit]

I did :lol:

[Dalleer]

Well there was the Swedish, and then there were the Russians and after some time it was the Russians again...

Now there's the German tourists.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

I've been "colonized" by a few girls so im voting yes.

[Kriz]

Belgium was occupied for hundres of years by foreign powers, but that's not really colonization.

[Guttorm]

Well let's see... First we invaded places like england, coutries in middle east and som other places... Then we turned compleaty pussy's and were invaded by sweden, and they again sold/gave us to denmark, then denmark gave us back to the swedes and we thought **** THIS, and became independent... An then... The frigging Nazi's came...

Now we're mostly invaded by groups of japanese people with 5-6 cameras slung around their necks.

[ostermalm]

Guttorm: When did Sweden invade Norway? Tell me about it i would like to know.... We did get Norwy for a while, but we got it from Denmark.

Dalleer: Finland has always been a natural part of Sweden, check the history books again if u want. It wasnt until the war of 1808-9 that Sweden lost control over Finaland.

[tony6]

Was my country ever colonized?
Many times-I live in Poland.
We were even totally wiped out from Europe map for 123 years.
But we are still here:)

[James]

I am American, and my country was colonized by he British, French, and Spanish in the 17th century. Alaska was Russian until the U.S. bought it in the 19th century.

[Seiyuuki]

Vietnam: Mongols - Kick them out, Chinese - Kick them out after 1000 years, Japanese - Kick them out, France - Kick them out, then the rest as you know they say, "...it's history."

[sunnysandy]

INDIA:Yes
1)Aryan tribes from europe,they just settled down bred with the locals.
2)Alexander ,He ruled us for some time but his men became tired of constant warfare and they left(he got killed on the way back)
3)Mughals(muslims)They settled down and became a part of the culture.
4)Brits,they ruled us for nearly 200years,when we couldnt fight them we took up non violence and turned the other cheek ,they got pissed and left.
5)French.Low profile left as quietly as they came
6)Portugal,Made a lot of noise but we kicked them out in 1960 :slap:

[Guttorm]

Guttorm: When did Sweden invade Norway? Tell me about it i would like to know.... We did get Norwy for a while, but we got it from Denmark.

Dalleer: Finland has always been a natural part of Sweden, check the history books again if u want. It wasnt until the war of 1808-9 that Sweden lost control over Finaland.

Sorry, I guess "invade" was the wrong word to use, but colonized would be better. :) But I seem to remember from history that sweden had control first, then gave norway to denmark, and then got it back?

[Armour recon]

Well there was the Swedish, and then there were the Russians and after some time it was the Russians again...

Now there's the German tourists.

That's right!!

[Mr. Nielsen]

Some scandinavian history:

In 1363 the norwegian King Håkon VI married the danish princess Margrethe. In 1370 they had a son Oluf, who in 1376 was elected King of Denmark (ruled by Margrethe when he was a kid). In 1380 King Håkon died and Oluf inherited Norway, with it followed Iceland, the Faroe Islands and Greenland.

In 1814, when the Napoleon War ended, the spoils were divided. Russia, being one of the winners, had during the war conquered Finland from Sweden. But Sweden was also on the winning side. Denmark (or Denmark-Norway) was on the losing side. So as a compensation for loosing Finland, Sweden got Norway. But the the Faroe Islands, Iceland and Greenland stayed with Denmark.

[One?]

My country of origin (lebanon) was colonized by france :oops:

[Macs.]

My country of origin (lebanon) was colonized by france :oops:

What a shame !!! ;)

[Dalleer]

Dalleer: Finland has always been a natural part of Sweden, check the history books again if u want. It wasnt until the war of 1808-9 that Sweden lost control over Finaland.

Now I'm hoping that you're a Swedish person saying this since what you've said about the important dates does add up, however your view of "Finland always being a natural part of Sweden" rubs me the wrong way.

Maybe you Swedish are the Americans of Scandinavia (sorry about this figure of speech, American members of the board) . Thinking that one way or the other you own everything that you might've set foot on once just does not apply here.

We've never been a part of your little "empire" as a people, you've conquered territories and that's that, nothing more.

What's more upsetting, is that you've left "your people" behind here, and you've also forgotten to take Åland (I can't possibly remember the English name for it) with you as well. So we do have several "monuments" of your past rule here to give us more trouble.

Now I'm not trying to make up a fight here, I'm just pointing out that your view of Finland being somehow part of Sweden is very much obsolete and a very fatal mistake if you Swedish (If you are a Swedish person, that is) still view Finland as something of a "part" of your territory.

We might have once been "under" you, but we are very much a culture and a people of our own; the same way as the Norwegians are.

I suggest that at least you, as a individual correct this rather silly and way too nationalistic "fact" that some of you Swedish (again, if you are a Swedish person) seem to be cultivating.

Finland might've once been a part of your empire, but we have never liked nor wanted to be under your rule, I figure that the Norwegians have similar feelings towards this matter as well.


But, despite my rather glum view of Swedish and Finnish history I am very much fond of Sweden, not just in their ways to produce the very cool M/90 camouflage patterns and the best potato salad I've ever tasted.

I've been to Sweden many times, and I'll even tell all of you a little secret that I have towards Sweden; I've been born there.

But, I am not Finnish-Swedish nor do I know how to speak Swedish that well, I've also got a dual-citizenship to Sweden and Finland.

There, I've got some experiences of Sweden myself.

EDIT: Apparently "MrNielsen" is Danish, but nevertheless Finland has never belonged to Sweden as a "natural part", conquered or annexed part perhaps but that has never been anything close to "natural".

[tony6]

My country of origin (lebanon) was colonized by france

What a shame !!!
LOL :D :D :D

[oldsoak]

In Britain we have this cyclical colonisation thing - we get colonised, we colonise, we get colonised - that sort of thing. We're being colonised at the moment, so in about 50 years we'll be out forcing people to drink tea and play cricket again. Just say "milk and two sugars" when we turn up and there will be none of this nasty, ill behaved, blood on the carpet stuff... :D

[Loco]

Do you consider colonization the same as occupation or conquest?
In the case of Spain, lots of countries came here.
1.Mediterranean peoples came to Iberian peninsula through the north of Africa and the south of the actual France and colonized Spain.
2.Celtics peoples came through Pyrinees(North of Spain) and colonized Spain in two differents periods.
3.Greeks cities stablished colonies in spanish mediterranean shore for trading about 3.000 years ago
3.Phoenicians stablished colonies in spanish mediterranean shores for trading about 3.000 years ago.
4. Carthago began the conquest of southeast Spain until the war with Rome around the III century before Christ.
5.After the war with Carthago Rome began the conquest and colonization of Iberian peninsula(portugal and spain today), around the 200 b.C.
6.German tribes(visigoths and suebians) conquered Spain after the fall of Roman empire.
7.Muslims conquered Spain, although they were expelled of Spain, it took us 800 years, and they had enough time for building marvellous cities, some of them destroyed, btw, by the muslims integrist of 700 years ago. A good amount of Mohamed´s sons remained in the south of Spain mixed with us.
8.Between 50-60 millions tourists colonize our beaches and towns every year, several thousands of them remain living here.
9. About 2 millions of inmigrants have come to Spain recently, many of them from countries we colonized before.
10. ...
And the earth gyrates and gyrates...
Merry Christmas and a Happy new year!!!! :)

:D :D

[fantassin]

Lebanon was not colonized by France. It was created by France after the Sèvres treaty (8.10.1920) that gave France Syria, (a country that used to be owned by Turkey) after the defeat of Turkey in WWI.

The Lebanon was created by the French as a shelter for the Christian populations (the Maronites) of Syria.

It remained administered by France until Général de Gaulle granted it independence at the end of WWII.

The same Général de Gaulle who fought against the Bolshevicks with polish army in Poland in the 1920s.

I feel your shame is especially stupid considering over 130 french soldiers died in the Lebanon since 1978 trying to keep peace there. You show a distinct lack of respect for those who died trying to improve the fate of your country of origin.

But it's so much easier to go with the flow and do some French bashing just to be popular...

[ostermalm]

Well Daller, I respect you for your opinon, but you are wrong. Finland was until the peace of 1809 just as a natural part of Sweden, as Västerbotten is today. It was the war with Russia that changed that.

Thats fact. Wheter You like it or not. I could confess to you and admit that I am somewhat nationalistic, and I would today take back the island of Åland if I could do.

We have been waging wars with many countries in the past (Poland, Russia, Denmark etc.) but countries like Finland didnt exist at the time. Neither did Germany. Finland was simply a part of Sweden.

Again, go back to the history books. But I dont no which books you are reading.

Its said that you think that I and other Swedes are too nationalistic, in fact, I THINK that its you, the finns, that are WAY too cocky against us, your neighbours. We have helped you many times and we have got nothing in return but despite.

A Swede

[Ichhabe]

ostermalm said:


Thats fact. Wheter You like it or not. I could confess to you and admit that I am somewhat nationalistic, and I would today take back the island of Åland if I could do.

You do that, and we take back Jämtland and Herjedalen. Göta län also belonged to us, and then Denmark could get back Skåne while we were at it.

[Dalleer]

Thats fact. Wheter You like it or not. I could confess to you and admit that I am somewhat nationalistic, and I would today take back the island of Åland if I could do.

Well, I think that there's no reason for you to even try to take Åland back since we can just give it to you. those folks living in Åland have never liked us, and they've always been more Swedish than anything else so.

Åland has always been a somewhat of a thorn on our side, not to mention the "Finnish Swedish"-population that you Swedish have left behind here.


Well Daller, I respect you for your opinon, but you are wrong. Finland was until the peace of 1809 just as a natural part of Sweden, as Västerbotten is today. It was the war with Russia that changed that.

This is yet again something that you view as a "natural" part of Sweden, in your opinion Finland has always belonged to you and whatever the hell, indeed Finland has "belonged" to you in terms of occupation and annexation of territory.

We have never "belonged" to you as a people. You might exploit our territories and use our resources but nevertheless you've never owned us Finnish completely.

And then some people wonder why we support the Norwegians in various international competitions...






"Again, go back to the history books. But I dont no which books you are reading. "


Well, those matters shouldn't really concern you, not to mention that I just agreed that Sweden has owned Finland through annexation and occupation of Finland as a territory.

For the second or the third time, you might have owned our land but you can't make us bow for you.




[/quote]Its said that you think that I and other Swedes are too nationalistic, in fact, I THINK that its you, the finns, that are WAY too cocky against us, your neighbours. We have helped you many times and we have got nothing in return but despite. [quote]


And how have you reached this conclusion then?


Let's not forget that some of you people view us as a "part" of your country and view us Finnish as something close to unintelligent bastards that should still be under your yoke.

Perhaps a few examples of our "ungratefulness" towards your kind deeds are in order at this point?

I am fully aware that you helped us to some extent during the winterwar and afterwards as well, and I assure you that we are more than grateful for your assistance during that time.

Personally I'd say that these nationalistic pissing-contests are seldom of any use, therefore I hope that this thread will be the last where we'll ever consider these things again.

And I have much respect towards Sweden and it's accomplishments, I truly hope that Mr Ostermalm shares the same feelings towards Finland.

Both of our nations should need a change in policy towards each others' people, don't you think?


EDIT: corrected some typos and a terrible mess with the quotes that still seems to be going on...

[ostermalm]

Dalleer: I do respect Finland!!! I just sometimes think that you are too nationalistic sometimes, but I guess that you feel the same about "us"?

I aslo feel that OUR (Swedish) description of the Swedish history is filled with too little pride and patriotism and with far more self-crtitism. But thats just me. I can also tell you that I am jellos of your "SISU" and will to defend what you belive belong to you. Thats really true and I think that many Swedes share my feelings.

(qoute):Both of our nations should need a change in policy towards each others' people, don't you think?

YES!!!

Regards/ a friend and Swede

PS. Why cant we start one big Scandinavian country? DS

[Dalleer]

Yes well, "SISU" is a rather interesting concept, I've found that the hardest part of "SISU" currently is to try and explain it people that are from really far away lands...



PS. Why cant we start one big Scandinavian country? DS

That would be really interesting!


Regards to you too, from a Finn.

[Falco]

Now lets see first came the Amerindians, then the Vikings, after that the French, they got kicked out by the Brits, then the US attacked us, needless to say that we kicked them out and finally we got overun by all the immigrants (that's not to bad, look at all the different kind of chicks you can pick up)

[Smintjes]

(off topic) Äland is beautiful! woot

[radon]

(off topic) Äland is beautiful! woot
Yes but the people are swedes. They dont even bother to learn or talk finnish. Imo the swedes should get theyr own back.

The russians conquest of Finland in 1809 must be one of the top military failure of all times. The commanders should given somekind of coward awards imo.

Altough the russians rule was not worse than the swedes. likely better.

[aFgHaNibOi]

Yes and no...

Yes, by the conquerors of the past [Alexander the Great, Changez Khan, etc...].

No, the British tried three times, but no luck. Sorry guys. ;) But we got skrewed with that blasted Durand Line agreement! :slap:

[aFgHaNibOi]

Regarding Spain,
Arab Muslims did conquer this part of the world, and like some have mentioned, they were there for 800 years...that's a looong time. This is why some say that people of Spanish descent have Moorish [Arab] blood in them. Take a look at some of the words that are in the Spanish language, for Closet [pretty sure it's closet], they say, Almario, and in my language, Farsi, we say Almari. Farsi has a lot of Arabic influence in it, and likewise with Spanish I would expect... :|

Some Mexicans that I know have the last name, Medina, which is a city in Arabia, as you would know. ;) Who knows really. :|

[Loco]

Regarding Spain,
Arab Muslims did conquer this part of the world, and like some have mentioned, they were there for 800 years...that's a looong time. This is why some say that people of Spanish descent have Moorish [Arab] blood in them. Take a look at some of the words that are in the Spanish language, for Closet [pretty sure it's closet], they say, Almario, and in my language, Farsi, we say Almari. Farsi has a lot of Arabic influence in it, and likewise with Spanish I would expect... :|

Some Mexicans that I know have the last name, Medina, which is a city in Arabia, as you would know. ;) Who knows really. :|


Actully, in spanish we don´t say "almario", but "aRmario" and it isn´t for calling the closet but for wardrobes or cupboards. Armario is a word of latin origin: armarium. Spanish is a latin language, but there are hundreds of arab origin words, many of them begining with the prefix "al", who were adopted by spanish and from Spain were exported to the rest of europe: almohada(willow), albaricoque(apricot), alcalde(not need translation), alférez(second leutenant), ajedrez(chess), azul(blue, and I think azul is farsi not arab), alicatado(encaustic tile-work), albañil(mason worker), alcatraz(a kind of fisher sea-bird), mudejar(muslim mason worker, and an architecture style), jalifa or jerife(sheriff), naranja(orange), alarde(military parade), naipes or baraja(playing cards), azafrán(saffrom), alhaja(jewel), algodón(cotton), azahar(orange flower), arroz(rice),...
Regards of arab occupying Spain, yes, I said they were here 800 years, and it looks strange a long occupation was reversed after so many years, but I should add something more: Arabs never occupied all Spain, in the summit of their strength they never could conquer the northern territories of Iberian peninsula, even they tried it hard, which are only about a 20% of the all Spanish surface, and in those territories the northern spanish(my ancestors, which btw were almost indepent during roman empire and goth kingdoms) built little kingdoms who proclaimed legitime heirs of the former visigoth monarchy, and at first they only could survive the attacks of muslims in the first 300 years, till around 1.004 a.C. , after this year the Caliphate of Cordoba(the muslim state in Spain) blow up in over 300 hundreds(I don´t exagerate) muslims states, and the northern christians kingdoms utilized this fact to eating one by one those tiny muslims states, and since this moment muslims never more were the main power in iberian peninsula. Roman empire controlled almost the whole iberian peninsula after 200 years of fights, except the northern strip, and Caesar Augustus planned a war to conquer the northern strip, a tiny territory populated by few and poor tribes, and the self-same Augustus came to this wild and woody land to directing the war and spent 5 years here when he could be living with all comfort in Rome, and he had to leave to home ill and exhausted, he gave to Agripa, his best general, the commitment of finishing the war after 20 years around the 5 b.C. It was a fatal mistake of muslims thinking they could sleep quietly without conquering our northern territories, a thing Romans, more powerful than arabs, didn´t tolerate to themselves: you must finish all the job, only then you can rest.
Muslims invaded Spain in 711a.c and they were at first about 30.000 warriors, risen to about 70.000 with berbers riders after the first years, but Spain wasn´t a desert land, it was a very developped country of the region since the days of Roman Empire, and had a population of over 5.000.000 people, posibly more than any other arab country in the same time, the main arab influence was cultural, not demographic, what muslims rulers did to control the peninsula was promoting the conversion of christians to islamism by peaceful ways sometimes and not peaceful ways many other times. The salvation of spanish, at least northern spanish is that muslims periodically expelled the christians who didn´t want converting to islam to the northern kingdoms and so they reinforced this little kingdoms with more population, and usually the christians that came from the south were experienced in many disciplines that arabs had developed more than europeans in that time, they usually had an urban culture(northern christians not), were more sophisticated and they taught our ancestors the best things of their enemies, regarding war, science, food, medicine or arts. As an example, the first fire wepons shooted first time in europe were used by muslims against spanish, of course, but soon christians learnt how to make them.
BTW, it´s indubitable that some spanish have arab blood mainly in the south, but I wouldn´t say arabs but muslims ancestors, since the moment the biggest population in the muslims kingdoms after the conquest were spanish converted to islam. Arabs were very few in the group of islamists warriors, they were the elite, the aristocracy, the most of islamist warriors were from Algeria, Tunez and Marroq. Although after the conquest of Granada in 1492 Queen Isabel let muslims remaining in Castilla(Castilla is the biggest kingdom of Spain and it´s made of other little kingdoms) with some conditions, but after a sublevation of muslims in 1571 in the Alpujarras(other arab name) in Andalucia(Al Andalus), they all were expelled from Spain. In the kingdom of Aragon, the last muslims were expelled around the years 1.609-1612. In this cases, as in the case of jews, they were expelled when they didn´t convert to christianism, and I don´t know the ciphers, but in Aragon kingdom, mainly in the Valencia region, it´s sure many muslims converted to christianism and their descendants luckily still remained full integrated with the christian population, even in the next years many spanish muslims who didn´t feel well in north Africa returned to Spain with authorities looking to other side, as they were regarded as good craftmen and mason.
Regarding surnames, we know of course where is Medina, the city were Mohamed died. But it doesn´t mean a people with the surname "Medina" has arabs ancestors, specially if he is Mexican man. In Spain muslims usually gave arabs names to the spanish cities they conquered, and there are several towns called "Medina de...", the most famous is Medina del Campo, in Valladolid, Old Castilla(north Spain),
http://www.delsolmedina.com/
, and as I know, Medina was used in christians kingdoms as s synonymous of "city" because christians have almost no cities but towns and villages, and the biggest cities were in the south, so they thought "medina" meant city, and in fact Medina del Campo, today a small town, became a big christian city and it was a trade center for wool who exported to all europe.
In Spain, our surnames many times aren´t "spanish", I mean that "spanish" is only the "castellano" or Castilla language. Castellano is now the most important language, but in the Middle age, when the fight against islam, they were important too the basque, catalan and galaico-portuguese languages, and we have surnames of all this languages. People from Castilla, the biggest kingdom, are the ones with more arab influenced surnames, but it doesn´t mean they have arab ancestors, and vicebersa, you can have castillian or catalan surnames and having arab ancestors. In the middle age, there wans´t a Civil Office, and people were only baptized with the christian name, and when they were adults, they chose the full name they most liked: They usually signed with their christian name first, second the patronimic surname(son of...), and third the town where they were born, sample a warrior called "Rodrigo(nickname Ruy) Díaz de Vivar", means his name was Rodrigo, son of a man called Diego(Díaz, son of Diego), and born in the town of Vivar. And the son of Rodrigo, baptized Sancho and born in Medina del Campo, would have the name of "Sancho Rodríguez(or Ruiz) de Medina(or Del Campo)".
A people that sure have arabs ancestor are the ones with the surname Benjumea, and andalusí surname. It´s said they descend from the Ben Omeya or Umeyya dinasty, the ones who built the Caliphate of Cordoba in the VIII century, and many of them were aristocrats.
Really, today in Spain we apreciate the arab heritage, in fact our kings were enough smart for keeping the marvellous buildings they built, a thing arabs didn´t do with the hispano-romans and christians monuments they found in Spain, even the best example of arab civilization in Spain, the city of Medina(again Medina) Al-Azahara, a resting-place and an administrative center built near Cordoba by the Calipha Abderramán III in the X century, was completely destroyed by an invasion of north african muslims integrist that invaded the muslim Spain in theory for helping their muslims brothers, at the end the only gain they had is that christians conquered more territories after the chaos they created. Arab heritage is something you can see daily in the southern cities of Spain, and in our vocabulary, it´s not something hidden. It doesn´t mean we aren´t more proud of our ancestors who never surrendered to muslims, and resisted during 3 long centuries when it looked a crazy adventure to defy the most strong empire of the world in that time.

[Dalleer]

Now that's what I'd call a long post...

[Loco]

Now that's what I'd call a long post...
ehhr...I think I forgot writing some things, but I´ll do it other day, p-)

[Merecir]

Clarification of Sweden and Finland...

Swedish vikings went eastward.
They went into Gårdarike eastward of the baltic sea, and down along the rivers to Micklagård (Constantinople).
Along the way they settled many places... Like Kiev, that later turned into Moscovy and Russia.
And naturally they settled down in the south and western coasts of todays Finland.

Then, Sweden became a relativley unified christian country. With natural posessions on the other side of the baltic sea.
And as happen in Scandinavian Sweden, the borders are pushed north/east (By that time Sweden only reached about half-way as far north as now)

Now in time we have the crusades... And what do the christian Sweden find nextdoor? Yes, heathen Finnish tribes.
So of course several crusades are quickly organized and sent to deal with thiese heathens. (That Novgorod where on the way from the east and where pulling the eastern Finns into their Orthodox church might have something to do with it aswell)...

Thiese crusades turn into regular fights against Novgorod.
And by 1323 we have the peace at Nöteborg between Sweden and Novgorod that establishes the border. (That looks basicly like the modern Finnish eastern border)

From thiese days, the Finns are treated as any Swedes.

And "Finland" is really a provice in southern East-Sweden, but later a King creates Finland as a Duchy for his son.

In the early 1800's, Sweden and Brittain is the only European powers that stand against Napoleon. Russia gets a deal with Napoleon and invades Sweden.

In 1809, Sweden looses the war due to treason... :fork:
-Sweden looses all of East-Sweden east of the Tårneo river...
Russia calls it the Duchy of Finland, although the conquered area is much bigger then the original duchy...

Questions:
-Did Sweden aquired Finland through conquest, colonizing or natural expansion?
-Can one say that Sweden took the area by force when the inhabitants where barley out of the iron-age?
-Would the modern Finns be better off, if the Novgorodians had expanded to the baltic? Would we even know of any "Finns" at all? (Or would there only be Russians...)

[Loco]

-Would the modern Finns be better off, if the Novgorodians had expanded to the baltic? Would we even know of any "Finns" at all? (Or would there only be Russians...)
My God!! That´s an interesting history-fiction case, but who knows, perhaps the russians wouldn´t exist and today in Moscow it would be spoken finn.
BTW, I didn´t know the finns lived in russian territory before. I listened they were tribes that came from some place between europe and asia and that Finn language is closely linked with hungarian language, is true? And another question about estonians and finns, excuse my ignorance, I see that estonians names sounds in some way similar to finn, and since they are close countries, does the estonian belong to the same family of languages than finn? Can a finn understand an stonian talking in estonian?Can a finn understand hungarian?
And about the languages talken in Latvia and in Lituania, are they related with finn or estonian? Thanks, :)

[aFgHaNibOi]

Loco,
Thank you very much for that well typed out mini "essay," ;) it was very very informative.

In regards to the names and surnames, how about Don Quixote de la Mancha? ;)

I agree with what you said in the last sentences. We should [as you do] respect others' traditions and cultures. Look at how beautiful and rich the Spanish-Arabic culture is! The Moors left a legacy behind in Spain [the beautiful Al Hambra :roll:]...it is sad to hear that the invaders of the South destroyed such buildings and other things. I wonder many times why conquerors destroy the conquered lands/areas/regions, when they could benefit from such secrets and beauties that these areas hold. Example, Changez Khan, who had the biggest empire on earth, destroyed everything. He poured salt on the ground so that crops wouldn't grow. He destroyed many many fine cities, destroyed EVERYTHING. Sad...

Anyways, before I drift off-topic, thank you again for taking your time with that! :) Maybe by this time next year, I will be speaking Spanish with you. ;)

[radon]

Loco: Finnish cant understand hungarian. Finnish and hungarian are still related in some way. Estonian is very similiar to finnish and many words are really similiar. The languages are closely related.

Finnish people cant understand estonian, only some words. Nobody can talk estonian here... But for some reason more atleast estonian people can understand (and even talk) finnish alot better than the finns estonian.
hope this helps

[Loco]

Ok, it seems as the relationship between all those languages are too old. Excuse me if I do too many answers, but the matter is very interesting: Do you or anyother know if stonian and hungarian are related? And are there any relationship between the finnish-stonian and the lithuanian and latvian languages?
Thanks in advance.

[Jooglae]

Hmm Interesting post.

Well, the Japanese colonized us from 1910 to 1945. My grandpa once had to serve in the imperial Japanese army because he was drafted, but then he came back safe and sound, because even before he was deployed to the war zone, the crazy banzai f*cks surrendered.
And he lived in Seoul until 1992 for the rest of his life. God bless him. And may the lord sink the f*cking Japs to the bottom.

[Seiyuuki]

Hmm Interesting post.

Well, the Japanese colonized us from 1910 to 1945. My grandpa once had to serve in the imperial Japanese army because he was drafted, but then he came back safe and sound, because even before he was deployed to the war zone, the crazy banzai f*cks surrendered.
And he lived in Seoul until 1992 for the rest of his life. God bless him. And may the lord sink the f*cking Japs to the bottom.

Careful with your generalization.

[aFgHaNibOi]

Hmm Interesting post.

Well, the Japanese colonized us from 1910 to 1945. My grandpa once had to serve in the imperial Japanese army because he was drafted, but then he came back safe and sound, because even before he was deployed to the war zone, the crazy banzai f*cks surrendered.
And he lived in Seoul until 1992 for the rest of his life. God bless him. And may the lord sink the f*cking Japs to the bottom.

Careful with your generalization.

Correct. That wasn't very nice Mr. Jooglae. :|

[Jooglae]

Hmm Interesting post.

Well, the Japanese colonized us from 1910 to 1945. My grandpa once had to serve in the imperial Japanese army because he was drafted, but then he came back safe and sound, because even before he was deployed to the war zone, the crazy banzai f*cks surrendered.
And he lived in Seoul until 1992 for the rest of his life. God bless him. And may the lord sink the f*cking Japs to the bottom.

Careful with your generalization.


OK. I'm sorry for being offensive.(Especially if you are a Japanese) But I just can't stand the extreme-right Japanese politicians an historians, who are trying to justify their colonization of Korea, and their invasion of China, and all the atrocities they have committed to us. I guess I got a little carried away. I'm sorry about that, reallly. I just gotta cool down.

[Dalleer]

OK. I'm sorry for being offensive.(Especially if you are a Japanese) But I just can't stand the extreme-right Japanese politicians an historians, who are trying to justify their colonization of Korea, and their invasion of China, and all the atrocities they have committed to us. I guess I got a little carried away. I'm sorry about that, reallly. I just gotta cool down.

This might be a bit odd coming from me and all, but somehow I really understand the Koreans and the Chinese for their wrath against the Japanese for their outright warcrimes during the second world war.

One of the crappiest comments against the US that I have heard coming from some of these completly un-educated activists here in Finland goes along the lines that: "the US murdered thousands of civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki with the atomic bomb, and they did it for no reason at all"

These "activists" often forget that the Japanese did some pretty horrible atrocities against other civilian populations themselves those days, and they played the game called war with dirty tricks up their sleeves.

In my opinion, the Japanese "army" and the whole nation deserved those atomic bombs dropped on them that day in 1945 in order to bring the Japanese a little taste of suffering to their home front.

"You play the game with dirty tricks, you've got to be prepared to receive similar hits yourself "

[aFgHaNibOi]

OK. I'm sorry for being offensive.(Especially if you are a Japanese) But I just can't stand the extreme-right Japanese politicians an historians, who are trying to justify their colonization of Korea, and their invasion of China, and all the atrocities they have committed to us. I guess I got a little carried away. I'm sorry about that, reallly. I just gotta cool down.

This might be a bit odd coming from me and all, but somehow I really understand the Koreans and the Chinese for their wrath against the Japanese for their outright warcrimes during the second world war.

One of the crappiest comments against the US that I have heard coming from some of these completly un-educated activists here in Finland goes along the lines that: "the US murdered thousands of civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki with the atomic bomb, and they did it for no reason at all"

These "activists" often forget that the Japanese did some pretty horrible atrocities against other civilian populations themselves those days, and they played the game called war with dirty tricks up their sleeves.

In my opinion, the Japanese "army" and the whole nation deserved those atomic bombs dropped on them that day in 1945 in order to bring the Japanese a little taste of suffering to their home front.

"You play the game with dirty tricks, you've got to be prepared to receive similar hits yourself "

To be honest, I don't think anybody deserves an Atomic bomb, or two for that matter, to be dropped on them. That's not cool. I mean, they're still suffering from it. There are people who're still affectec by all the radiation and whatnot, it's horrible, and I see no reason whatsoever of supporting this.

America was Island hopping their way all the way to Japan, so what's with the Nukes? :|

[GI_Rutger]

Ehm...In the last 3000 years?
- Once by the Romans: very hard time :)
- Once by the Wikings: which year? Don't know, a ****ing long time anyway
- By every British, German, French bastard in the dark years 500-1500
- By the French in 1800
- By the Germans 40-45

Sure forgotten some other countries, but it's anyway, HOLLAND is occupied to many times. I think we should send in each caravan to France two soldiers to attack Belgium from the back.... :-*$

[Dalleer]

America was Island hopping their way all the way to Japan, so what's with the Nukes?

Mainly, the going would've gone a lot more tougher when the allied forces had advanced to Japan's three major islands.

We're talking about hundreds of thousands of casulties from both sides, and not to mention how much time it would have costed to take the three islands one by one.

At its worst, the war in the pacific could've been extended by years...

[Sleeping Sun]

In school I was taught that Finland is not geographically part of Scandinavia and that it coud be compared to saying that Italy is part of the Balkans...but who gives a ****!

[Schwabo Elite]

OK. I'm sorry for being offensive.(Especially if you are a Japanese) But I just can't stand the extreme-right Japanese politicians an historians, who are trying to justify their colonization of Korea, and their invasion of China, and all the atrocities they have committed to us. I guess I got a little carried away. I'm sorry about that, reallly. I just gotta cool down.

This might be a bit odd coming from me and all, but somehow I really understand the Koreans and the Chinese for their wrath against the Japanese for their outright warcrimes during the second world war.

One of the crappiest comments against the US that I have heard coming from some of these completly un-educated activists here in Finland goes along the lines that: "the US murdered thousands of civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki with the atomic bomb, and they did it for no reason at all"

These "activists" often forget that the Japanese did some pretty horrible atrocities against other civilian populations themselves those days, and they played the game called war with dirty tricks up their sleeves.

In my opinion, the Japanese "army" and the whole nation deserved those atomic bombs dropped on them that day in 1945 in order to bring the Japanese a little taste of suffering to their home front.

"You play the game with dirty tricks, you've got to be prepared to receive similar hits yourself "

I agree with aFgHaNibOi in that no one "deserves" a nuclear bomb.
I do not see it necessary to punish civilians (innocent or not) with death. Actually I do not see the point for death punishment at all, but tha is another matter.
What I do count as a good point for throwing th bomb is that the US realized that the politicl situation was difficult in Japan at best. It seems to be a fact that the Japanese would not have agreed to a total surrender before "feeling" the war in their country. Bringing the war to their countryy proved to be difficult, as they were even tougher fighting on Iwo Jima and Okinawa (as did the Germans, look at the Hürtgen Wald). So it seemed to be inevitable to either end the war without unconditional surrender (no choice for the Allies) or invading the Japan main islands (Op. Coronet and Olympic). This would have condemned possibly houndreds of thousands of US, British and Australian soldiers (not to mention other nations) to death, as well as an even larger number of Japanese soldiers and civilians.
Dropping the bomb seemed to be a good way to "save a lot of people" as sarcarstic as it might sound. I doubt it saved a lot of Japanese, but in war, enemy lives rarely count.
There was a political implication, too. Ending the war without heavy losses and very early would allow the Allies (especially the USA) to rearrange its military to the upcoming cold war, and sending home the soldiers to power up the economy. This would allow the US to profit most from the new markets and would deny the Soviets to gain hold in Europe and Asia even more.

By the way, arguing that Japans attrocities called for nuclear punishment arouses the question in me: What is the limit?
I mean at what "number of attrocities" would you DALLEER start punishing nucear. For justice's sake. I mean, more like 6 or 6,000 or 6,000,000? What is attrocity then? Torture? Pillageing? Raping? Murdering? Waging war? All our nations should perish then. Especially if you punish normal people for their governments crimes. Sure, they did not intervene. Sure they all could have known. But what if one could not have known? What if one was against his leaders? COLLATERAL DAMAGE?

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."
-- J.R.R. Tolkien

SE

[Dalleer]

All our nations should perish then.

Agreed, you are pretty much on the same wavelength with me now.

But, that's not the issue here.



Sure, they did not intervene. Sure they all could have known. But what if one could not have known? What if one was against his leaders? COLLATERAL DAMAGE?

Well you know, I'm not 100 % educated over the Japanese ideology towards their own "attrocities" in WWII but I'd say that the Japanese government, as well as the army and not to mention the civilians must have known of these things carried out in their campaigns, at least to some degree.

I wonder, did the government know of these attrocities being carried out? did they openly agree on them or did they punish the soldiers carrying out these acts?

Now that I don't know, but I'd sure be interested of finding out.


By the way, arguing that Japans attrocities called for nuclear punishment arouses the question in me: What is the limit?

This is speculation on my part yet again, but to me the limit is complete ignorance of these acts by the government/army.

Did any of these acts get punished by the government or the military themselves?

If not, then you could argue that these sorts of things were not held in such high value on the Japanese system of waging war (preservation of foreign civilians, protection of foreign civilians, etc.)

After all, the Japanese were the occupiers of many countries, but I doubt that they took care of the civilian population that good, perhaps they didn't even care for them at all. They were just somebody to exploit, beat, rape, murder, torture and so on.

When nobody cares of these things, especially the Japanese government themselves, you have got to start wondering about it all.

Sure the Japanese population might have not known, or perhaps they knew but were too afraid or ignorant to act.

It's just that it's pretty hard to move all the civilians out of the area, then nuke the place where all of the leaders are situated in.

That's war for you, and I won't be making any more comments after someone brings us some facts about the Japanese populations/army's /governments thoughts over the war crimes.



For justice's sake. I mean, more like 6 or 6,000 or 6,000,000? What is attrocity then? Torture? Pillageing? Raping? Murdering? Waging war?

Well, that is a very interesting question on your part.

What is an "atrocity", then?

It purely depends on your own views, what you might view as a "clean way to conduct war" might be viewed by others as a dirty war crime.

Perhaps the Japanese army thought this way, and proceeded to wage war on that manner.

However, it still doesn't change the fact that it's pretty damn low to intentionally kill civilians.

[Schwabo Elite]

I agree with most of your statements, but remain of the opinion that a nuclear bomb (in fact any use of weapons) is a proper kind of punishment for any country, no matter the crimes.
Countries are not allowed to punish other countries for things they view as crimes. For that we got the UN which is the only institution to judge countries.

Of course I am aware of the fact that UNO didn't exist back then (well in a way it did, but that's a diffrent matter) and the People's League was erased. And as a German I am pretty happy the Allies choose to "do some proper self justice", but the statement "they deserved it" is on the same moral level as "my god wants you to die, I am his tool" and we should be past this, otherwise we lived the past 250 years for nuts.

CU SE

[gorg]

Dalleer, I'm a swede and I have read quite a bit of history and I agree with you on almost everything. When it comes to the northern european nations we swedes are a bit to cocky and patriotic, but never, neverhave I got the impression that some people look down on Finland(we have Norway for that :) kidding ;p)

Finland was a part of Sweden for over 600 years and there wasn't exactly many serious attempts to brake off. But if someone says Finland had it good during that time they would be incorrect, Finland always had it worse than Sweden.

When it comes to the island of Åland, well thats a tricky issue, neither Sweden or Finland got what they wanted becuse of Russia and Nationernas Förbund(don't know the english name for it), the orginization that lay the grounds for the United Nations.

[Dalleer]

Dalleer, I'm a swede and I have read quite a bit of history and I agree with you on almost everything. When it comes to the northern european nations we swedes are a bit to cocky and patriotic, but never, neverhave I got the impression that some people look down on Finland

Agreed, no _civilized_ Swede would look down on Finland, but as you've seen there was this guy in the board the other day, "Chobbamdog" I believe, that was more than enough of a shame for the whole Swedish nation for his actions...

So they are around, unfortunately.


Finland was a part of Sweden for over 600 years and there wasn't exactly many serious attempts to brake off. But if someone says Finland had it good during that time they would be incorrect, Finland always had it worse than Sweden.

Well, I'm not going to speculate too much over the matter, but I think that either we didn't know how to "insurrect" against you, or then we didn't even care to.

And, of course Finland has had it worse than Sweden, but it's our own individual inferno and no one should bother our alcohol-drinkin' wrist-slashing' sauna-going paradise.

I'm sorry, the last one was a stupid joke, but some people just wanted me to say that.


When it comes to the island of Åland, well thats a tricky issue, neither Sweden or Finland got what they wanted becuse of Russia and Nationernas Förbund(don't know the english name for it)

Yes, well the "league of nations", I believe that it's called, really messed it up in a way.

However, I'd be more than glad to give Åland back to the Swedish since "obviously" the Ålanders (?) are more willing to be a part of Sweden than Finland.

Honestly, the whole "nationalistic spirit" of us Finns does not depend on one island, believe me.


Countries are not allowed to punish other countries for things they view as crimes. For that we got the UN which is the only institution to judge countries.

That's correct in a purely logical way, however I'm sure that alot of others countries viewed what the Japanese did as horrific, so in a way I suppose that they "agreed" on the use of the atomic bomb with the US, until they of course learned of the various extra that came with the big blast and cool effects.

Then again, I doubt that the US viewed (or still views) the atomic bombs as the direct punishment for the Japanese atrocities' , more likely just a quick way to win the war.

Depends on the point of view, yet again.

[Tengu]

YES, Belgium: occupied by the romans, french and germans. We colonized the congo.

[Loco]

YES, Belgium: occupied by the romans, french and germans. We colonized the congo.
Spanish were in Belgium a short season too, about 100 or ¿200 years?, I don´t know if as tourists or what, anyway is good we left there few memories because it means we were good boys. ;)
http://frenchfilms.topcities.com/Kermesse_heroique_3.jpg

[Schwabo Elite]

No the German Emperor was by then in personal union king/emperor of Spain. Since the Netherlands and with them parts of modern Belgium (the Dutch speaking part) were part of the German Empire the Spanish ruled there as well.
The famous Emperor Charles V. was even born in Gent (important city in Belgium) and care alot about the country of his birth. However his successor Philip II. (the guy the Philipines are named after) screwed up majorly buy being a ruthless ****head and pressing all money out of the rich cities (such as Brugge). Even more than his predecessor, plus he was a savage.
So the Dutch (and the Belgish with them) started a guerilla war by 1568 and went fighting it nonstop into the 30 year war that harassed whole of Germany. So they got an 80 year war and were pretty f***ed up after that.
The problem proved to be that after the war and with the introduction of diffrent confessions in the Christian church most of what is now the Netherlands became protestant and all the Roman-Catholics stayed/moved to modern Belgium. However all the rich people converted to protestantism and moved to the northern provinces (now known as Netherlands). Such the former rich cities of Belgium, glamerous and important in the late medieval times of the "Hanse" slipped into being less important where as the "Zeven provinzen" (seven provinces) of the Netherlands rose to unknown power and were soon after be able to colonize far countries and trade with all the world.

SE

[Parzival]

:lol:

[Tengu]

cool Schwabo Elite \o/

[Loco]

No the German Emperor was by then in personal union king/emperor of Spain. Since the Netherlands and with them parts of modern Belgium (the Dutch speaking part) were part of the German Empire the Spanish ruled there as well.
The famous Emperor Charles V. was even born in Gent (important city in Belgium) and care alot about the country of his birth. However his successor Philip II. (the guy the Philipines are named after) screwed up majorly buy being a ruthless ****head and pressing all money out of the rich cities (such as Brugge). Even more than his predecessor, plus he was a savage.
So the Dutch (and the Belgish with them) started a guerilla war by 1568 and went fighting it nonstop into the 30 year war that harassed whole of Germany. So they got an 80 year war and were pretty f***ed up after that.
The problem proved to be that after the war and with the introduction of diffrent confessions in the Christian church most of what is now the Netherlands became protestant and all the Roman-Catholics stayed/moved to modern Belgium. However all the rich people converted to protestantism and moved to the northern provinces (now known as Netherlands). Such the former rich cities of Belgium, glamerous and important in the late medieval times of the "Hanse" slipped into being less important where as the "Zeven provinzen" (seven provinces) of the Netherlands rose to unknown power and were soon after be able to colonize far countries and trade with all the world.

SE
:roll: Then, spanish weren´t on hollidays in Belgium? I don´t want being offensive, but if I could choose between Napoli, Seville or Antwerppen 4 centuries ago, I´m afraid I wouldn´t choose the "glamerous and important" one for hollidays. It´s interesting that diversity of opinions, so Charles V(Carlos I here) is well considered in Belgium but Philip II not?, well, as you have pictured Philip II policy, he was a kind of Robin Hood who tried to get the fair taxes of rich cities for paying the cost of the empire who made rich those cities, you know, a honest citizen must pay taxes, the 1/5 of the crown. In Spain there are several opinions about that as well, in fact the belgian Charles V came to Spain in 1518 together a belgian staff of politicians and bishops who sacked all Castilla kingdom literally appart the taxes and even asked money to spanish for the empiror´s elections in Germany, which people here thought to be some strange since spanish weren´t germans, umm, this remembers me in some way people of today, ¡hey, I´m sure a Schroeder´s ancestor was around there! So there was a war in Castilla against Charles V, la Guerra de los Comuneros, who was the winner btw. It seems as Philip II learnt some things of his father and thought that what belgians tried to do in Spain was fair he did the same in Belgium. p-)
http://www.duela.be/images/kermesse-affiche.jpg
That´s a funny belgian movie!
**Not pretend to flame a war (well, only a little), but you must tell all facts, ;)

[Schwabo Elite]

:roll: Then, spanish weren´t on hollidays in Belgium? I don´t want being offensive, but if I could choose between Napoli, Seville or Antwerppen 4 centuries ago, I´m afraid I wouldn´t choose the "glamerous and important" one for hollidays. It´s interesting that diversity of opinions, so Charles V(Carlos I here) is well considered in Belgium but Philip II not?, well, as you have pictured Philip II policy, he was a kind of Robin Hood who tried to get the fair taxes of rich cities for paying the cost of the empire who made rich those cities, you know, a honest citizen must pay taxes, the 1/5 of the crown. In Spain there are several opinions about that as well, in fact the belgian Charles V came to Spain in 1518 together a belgian staff of politicians and bishops who sacked all Castilla kingdom literally appart the taxes and even asked money to spanish for the empiror´s elections in Germany, which people here thought to be some strange since spanish weren´t germans, umm, this remembers me in some way people of today, ¡hey, I´m sure a Schroeder´s ancestor was around there! So there was a war in Castilla against Charles V, la Guerra de los Comuneros, who was the winner btw. It seems as Philip II learnt some things of his father and thought that what belgians tried to do in Spain was fair he did the same in Belgium. p-)
http://www.duela.be/images/kermesse-affiche.jpg
That´s a funny belgian movie!
**Not pretend to flame a war (well, only a little), but you must tell all facts, ;)

Errh some slight misunderstandings here, sorry about that:
1. Napoli?? I only know one (European) Napoli. That's Italy.
2. Charles V. wasn't actually well conceived in Belgium, rather "better" than Philip II. Who was in Belgish/Dutch eyes the "Hitler" of that time, faring with the people in a way that led to a guerilla war and the formation of the famous "watergeusen" (spelling?). I recommend the Flamish version of Til Ulenspigel (multiple spellings possible) for that, funny yet horrifying in some parts.
3. Philip surely was now Robin Hood :roll: although history is often told diffrently and wrong, it has certain, well founded, causes that Philip II. is remembered for the "Spanish Inquisition". However the topic Inquisition is to big to discuss here in any length shorter than a thousand pages, so we should skip that and go straight for the end... ;)

Ciao SE

[Pyle]

The Philippines

The Spaniards came

The Americans bought us from Spain

The Japanese invaded the country and kicked Uncle Sam in the crotch

McArthur returned with a vengeance

And the Philippines remained American ever after

The End

[Schwabo Elite]

Actually tip on the globe and if land under your finger it once was occupied by someone who wasn't there first...

SE

[Loco]

Errh some slight misunderstandings here, sorry about that:
1. Napoli?? I only know one (European) Napoli. That's Italy.
2. Charles V. wasn't actually well conceived in Belgium, rather "better" than Philip II. Who was in Belgish/Dutch eyes the "Hitler" of that time, faring with the people in a way that led to a guerilla war and the formation of the famous "watergeusen" (spelling?). I recommend the Flamish version of Til Ulenspigel (multiple spellings possible) for that, funny yet horrifying in some parts.
3. Philip surely was now Robin Hood :roll: although history is often told diffrently and wrong, it has certain, well founded, causes that Philip II. is remembered for the "Spanish Inquisition". However the topic Inquisition is to big to discuss here in any length shorter than a thousand pages, so we should skip that and go straight for the end... ;)

Ciao SE
Certainly, Napoli is in Italy, you won a penny!, always was there. But 4 centuries ago there wasn´t a state called Italy. Napoli and Scilly together were a kingdom, which king was the same of Aragon kingdom, which king btw was the same of Spain. Thousands of spanish were in Napoli in one moment of their lifes in that time, and many of them remained for ever living there, they could go and came to Napoli like to Seville or Valencia. They felt in Napoli like at home, that´s what many of them wrote about that. And yes, they thought Napoli, and all Italy, was "glamorous", like you say, or sophisticated, and funny, and charming, and risky too, definitively a good place for young people, but they didn´t think the same about Flandes(Belgium), so when they had the chance to choose between a place like Antwerppen of Napoli...and I´m talking of the time before the wars began. And yes, it´s curious how history is written in each side. Really, here we don´t think Philipp II was a saint or a Robin Hood, but in any way can him being compared with Hitler, specially if the comparison is made by a germany, that´s as simply as that. What Philippe II did in Netherland wasn´t the worst thing done in europe in that time, and of course the belgians can´t complain too much about Philippe II, since many of them supported him with their blood and money. It would be a praise to Hitler being compared with Philippe II: King Philippe II built an managed an empire with an iron fist, true, but he never exterminated nor pretended to exterminate any country on the surface of the earth, and he ruled over many different people of differents races and different religions, yes, because he ruled over millions of muslims and jews in Asia and he didn´t fought against them, and at last, the empire of Philippe survived him more than 2 centuries and evolutionated, more than 20 countries born of that empire and you can´t find any one of that countries where something like an apartheid´s style regime was founded like the ones who fought agaisnt Philippe II done in SAfrica still yesterday, and well, you know how many centuries survived the III Reich of beloved Adolf and the result of it, a mount of ashes. ;)
The problem with belgians and dutch people(them called flamencos) with Philippe II is that they pretended to rule not only Spain, but all the european empire, not to talk of spanish colonies in America. But belgians didn´t complain when Philippe II gave to them, to the city of Bruggen, the privilege to print all the religious books(bibles, evangeliums, praising books, etc) to export to spanish empire, I´d call that hipocresy :backhand:
They tried to throw the stone but they got back the stone in their face, that´s all. Charles V came to Spain with the bishop of Utrech, and he tried to be the regent in Spain, not only that but he and his group of flamencos(dutch and belgians) try to impose in Spain taxes for their own policy in Flandes and Germany, and the bastards did it with the aprobation of Charles V!!! I think that in that time, flemish thought a lot of good things about Charles V.
And yes, we could talk about "spanish" Inquisicion, that´s an insane court! ufff! The problem is that all europeans were fond of burning each others. At least, we, spanish did it with more order and contention. 15.000 people(accused of doing witchcraft, baptised catholics accused of practising jew or muslim religion, or practising protestantism) were burnt in the bonfires of the so called "Autos de Fe" in 300 years, 15.000 is many people, certainly, about 50 every years, 1 every week, terrifiying. Now I would like you to say how many people were executed by other catholics(Inquisición wasn´t only spanish, in fact it was imported from Rome), but they were "only" 15.000, 2 days of work in Auschwitz, never were people lynched in Spain in that time. Or how many people were burnt or executed for being catholics or considered heretics in protestant countries, do you know the numbers? In Spain we know it because we keep our archives and files ordered since many centuries ago(contrary to the stereotype, germans aren´t the only organized people in the world ;) ), but I´m afraid we never will know how many were killed in times like the Night of Sain Bartholomew? It´s said that far more than 15.000 thousands in 1 night. How many were killed by protestants in Germany or the now civilizated Switzerland???? A spanish scientific, Miguel Servet, the one who discovered the circulatory system in the human body, was burnt accused of being heretic, not by Inquisición, but by calvinists in Geneva, Switzerland, so...like we say in Spain "Everywhere people cook broad beans"
And, ehem, the true "schwabo elite" don´t live in Germany any more, they came to Spain 1.600 years ago, :P .


The Americans bought us from Spain
:roll: Well, really the sell was like this: Americans sunk all our ships in Manila bay, so with this offer we said yes to the sell.

[Schwabo Elite]

:) Nice post. I reckon you are quite firm in European history. And surely comparing Hitler and Philip II. is alittle over the edge, but you got the point, I hope. ;)

I know that the Inquisition didn't burn most of the people. Technically they had to hand over suspects to the secular authorities. I don't support the protestants in any way, the 30 years war killed a third of our population.

But the "true" Schwabo Elites never went to Spain if you are referring to the Visigoth (West Gots), they came from the island of Gotland which is not German.
By the way the last "true" Europeans, who were possibly not Asian invaders like the Indo-Europeans, are a small bunch of people living in the North of Spain. The Basque. I recently translated a very nice article about that which basically handled certain familiarities in European names of places. The rest of us is all Asians...
Speaking of true German always makes me laugh, I think together with North America and the Levante/Asia Minor, Germany is one of the crossroads of the human world. Someone who is truely German at least got with him half a dozen Germanic tribes, the same number of Celts, Romans, Huns, Slawic and other mixture-people like the French (who drop by frequently) and the like.
I like it the way it is...


SE

[Maine Finn]

Loco: Finnish cant understand hungarian. Finnish and hungarian are still related in some way. Estonian is very similiar to finnish and many words are really similiar. The languages are closely related.

Finnish people cant understand estonian, only some words. Nobody can talk estonian here... But for some reason more atleast estonian people can understand (and even talk) finnish alot better than the finns estonian.
hope this helps


Ok, it seems as the relationship between all those languages are too old. Excuse me if I do too many answers, but the matter is very interesting: Do you or anyother know if stonian and hungarian are related? And are there any relationship between the finnish-stonian and the lithuanian and latvian languages?
Thanks in advance.

Does this help?


*Excerpt from Fenni: The Finns Among Us by Art Jura*

If we accept the notion that some of our ancestors were milling about in prehistoric Russia, probably one system of tracing them would be through language. The Finnish language is part of a Uralic language group known as Finno-Ugric. The structure is foreign to Western minds, and there are no articles, definite or indefinite, no gender, no future tense of verbs, and almost no prepositions.

This may surprise many of you, but there are supposedly 23 million (23,000,000) people who speak all of the related languages within Finno-Ugric! These various people live in North Eurasia and were the original inhabitants of Central, Eastern, and Northern Europe, as well as Western Siberia.

Linguistically, these people are divided into five branches, with the Baltic-Finnic group representing the tribes that we should be most concerned with. The Baltic-Finnic group consists of the Finns, Estonians, Karelians, Ingrians, Livonians, Votes, and the Vespes. How many of you recognised at least three of these? Really? No cheating!

The other four linguistic groups are the Sami, Volgaic, Permian, and the Ugric. Another distant group, sometimes within this listing, are the Samoyed – although mostly of Mongolian race. Hungarians are usually classified with the Ugrics.

… Estonians are a people closely related to the modern Finns. They populate their own homeland, which is directly to the South, across the Gulf of Finland. Their language is similar enough that Finns and Estonians can learn to communicate, although it is not identical. This Finno-Ugric tribe had to compete for their own communities against other nomadic tribes from the south, which ultimately became the Lithuanians, Latvians, and Prussians. All of these groups made the transition to farming by the early Iron Age. The long and difficult history of the Estonians parallels that of their Finnish cousins, but with different opponents. This was also a battleground between East and West, with centuries of colonial and religious conflict between Germans, Latvians, Lithuanians, Russians, Poles, Swedes, and Danes. Modern Estonia is an independent republic, now emerging from the shadows of the Iron Curtain.

Karelians are the people that originally occupied a vast area of Eastern Finland, which has often been referred to as “Old Finland”. This was the section rich in the oral traditions that have been recorded in the Finnish national epic, Kalevala. The area was also heavily influenced by the Orthodox Church of the Novgorod and was the site of perpetual wars between Catholic Sweden and Orthodox Russia. The boundaries have been redrawn numerous times, depending on the victors. The last partition was in 1944, by the USSR. Over 400,000 Karelians were evacuated to Finland.
The language is considered by many scholars to be the closest to Finnish, while others classify it an Eastern dialect of Finnish. Actually, the northern dialects of Karelia are very close to those of eastern Finland, while the southern dialect resembles the original Vespian language.

Ingrians are a sub-group of Finno-Ugrics who historically occupied the area between the Gulf of Finland, the basin of the Neva River, and Lake Ladoga. The area was designated as the Province of St Petersburg in 1710, and as Leningrad Province in 1927. As far back as 1695, 74% of its total population was Finnish. Following the Great Northern War of 1700-21, this area was separated from the rest of the Finns. However, fully 200 years passed before a repressive Soviet regime implemented collectivisation practises, deportations, and executions, which were designed to label Ingrian Finns as aliens of their own ancestral lands. After the demise of the USSR, the new government has attempted to rehabilitate the Ingrians as a nation. It may be too late for this “endangered species”, as thousands have emigrated to Finland.

Livonians are the ancient Finno-Ugric tribe that inhabited a belt of land along the eastern shore of the Gulf of Riga, stretching from the Daugava River to the present territory of Estonia. Many had already assimilated with the Latvians by the 19th Century. The remaining Livonians fled their native villages in both World Wars, and their ethnicity was not recognised by the Soviets. They are near extinction as a race.

Votes were among the indigenous peoples of old Ingria and were Finno-Ugric in both race and language. They have been assimilated by neighbouring Slavs, and are probably extinct as a race.

Vespes were Finno-Ugric who originally occupied the territory between the three lakes named Ladoga, Onega, and Beloye Ozero. Today, they live in seven districts of three provinces and probably total 13,000 ethnic Vespes. Lacking a common administrative territory, they are rapidly assimilating with neighbouring Slavs.

…Kerätkää tähteeksi jääneet palaset,
ettei mitään menisi hukkaan. - John 6:12