View Full Version : Toughest Military Units of the past 300 years
NcDeuce
12-20-2003, 03:36 PM
I think this is a new thread...Just curious to see some history on a few of the toughest units...
Irish Brigade, Iron Brigade, Stonewall Jackson's brigade, Forrest's cavalry during the American Civil War.
101st Airborne Division units @ Bastogne, U.S. & British paratroopers in Normandy, Rangers @ Point du Hoc during WWII.
Roger Rabbit
12-20-2003, 03:43 PM
300 years so for those not too great at the old maths, or math as you Americans say for some peculiar reason, then thats from 1703-2003
Thats a lot of military units to cover. Anyway its kind of pointless as well because technology changes, politics, social stuff etc etc but just to amuse myself then i would say that some of the British units in the Napoleonic Wars were pretty tough. Some of the Irish units, Cannuaght Rangers were scary people as well.
Operation Ivy
12-20-2003, 03:49 PM
Russian 6th Guards Army and Tank Corps at Kursk
:D
Ratamacue
12-20-2003, 03:55 PM
Marine Raiders and Paratroopers holding the line at Guadalcanal.
British Paratroopers during Market Garden.
And definitely the 101st. Abn. during the Ardennes campaign.
martinexsquaddie
12-20-2003, 04:02 PM
Britsh infantry at Albuera
as Marshall sout said of them "The Day was Mine and they did not know it and would not run"
royal marines and Paras in the falklands "well the airlift is now at the bottom of the sea so your walking crack on "
Dalleer
12-20-2003, 04:38 PM
I'd say that the German WWII SS divisions had tough jobs before them in the eastern front, and they fought despite the negative image and some foul-play along the road...
Also the British paratroops at Market Garden were excellent in their skills during that operation, not to mention the various US divisions in Bastogne and the whole Ardennes offensive.
The Russians had a tough time too, and emerged victorious against the Germans, so I couldn't say which unit/division etc. is the best.
EvanL
12-20-2003, 06:07 PM
The Canadian units at Dieppe and the Somme. They knew they were gonna die but still ffought their arses off.
Va_Dinger
12-20-2003, 06:52 PM
The Waffen-SS 1st,2nd,3rd,5th, and 12th SS Panzer Divisions. I've seen them refered to as the greatest combat formations in history several times.
Argyll
12-20-2003, 07:28 PM
Yep and they also commited their fair share of atrocities too
Better drop Totenkopf (3rd) off the list. Most importantly, they had loads of sadistic concentration camp guards on their payroll and routinely rotated personnel between the camps and the division. Militarily, they were a sorry bunch in France in 1940 and still in Russia in 1941, more known for their brutality against POWs than combat prowess. Then they improved, being nearly annihilated at the siege of Kholm in the winter of 41/42, but in the end withstanding all Soviet assaults. After getting their ranks filled with a new stream of psychopathic killers, they then bled white against the Soviet defenses at Kursk in 1943. And in-between, managed to slaughter countless Russian civilians as "partisans". If I remember correctly, the division's final mission was the unsuccessful recapture of Budapest with the 6th SS Panzer army in early 1945 after which they eventually surrendered to the Soviets and were mostly "put to the sword". And every one of them would have deserved this fate.
FuturePara
12-20-2003, 08:32 PM
German Fallschirmjagers at Monte Cassino "The Green Devils" as they were called by the allies. Merills Maruaders, the Chindits.
Earlier, Rogers Rangers, Francis Marrion and his boys, Union Sharpshooter Regiments.
Minjin
12-20-2003, 08:39 PM
Fraser's Highlanders. At the battle of Quebec in Sept. 1759 they fired their first volley, and rather than reload and shoot again, they drew their broadswords and charged the French, causing a panic even among the native allies, which were at the time quite fearsome to both sides. Their charge was quite startling.
Other than that, I would say anyone who landed in Normandy definitely sticks out.
Operation Ivy
12-20-2003, 09:19 PM
Wasnt the 82nd at Bastonge too? y does 101 get all the fame
Vance
12-20-2003, 09:29 PM
Marines at Iwo Jima. Defenders of the Alamo. Rangers at Omaha Beach and Point Du Hoc. Canadians at Juno Beach. 101st at Bastogne. Marines at Wake Island. Task Force Ranger in Somalia. Russians at Stalingrad. (Germans put up a hell of a fight too.) And last but not least, the 1st Calvary at the Ia Drang Valley.
Skaman
12-21-2003, 12:04 AM
The japanese in nearly every theatre of war during ww2. These men made the allies look like boy scouts.
Midav
12-21-2003, 12:30 AM
The japanese in nearly every theatre of war during ww2. These men made the allies look like boy scouts.
May have, yet still got their asses handed to them with less casualties on allied side to top it off.
NcDeuce
12-21-2003, 12:43 AM
Wasnt the 82nd at Bastonge too? y does 101 get all the fame
Elements of the 82nd were present during the Battle of the Bulge but the 101st were the brunt of the American force. The Bastogne legacy lives on today...many companies, battalions, and regiments still have a "Bastogne Bulldog" as a mascot. ;)
Vance
12-21-2003, 01:23 AM
The japanese in nearly every theatre of war during ww2. These men made the allies look like boy scouts.
...Which is why they lost most of them, right?
ArmedPacifist
12-21-2003, 01:25 AM
You have 300 years to cover, so why are there so many ww2 units and battles listed?
NcDeuce
12-21-2003, 01:32 AM
You have 300 years to cover, so why are there so many ww2 units and battles listed?
Twas a big war.
ducimus19 wrote:
The japanese in nearly every theatre of war during ww2. These men made the allies look like boy scouts.
...Which is why they lost most of them, right?
Tis true...tough bastards who fought to the end...HELL how many Kamikaze units have you seen in history?
Ratamacue
12-21-2003, 01:59 AM
I will definitely say that the Japanese were some tough and determined guys and I think they deserve respect for that (though not for some other things). With that said, they certainly did not make the Allies look like "boy scouts."
AFACadet
12-21-2003, 02:37 AM
mmmmmm...
Yep, talk to the men who survived the Bataan death march. NOT books, I'm talking about talking to the actual men.
Look into their eyes when they are telling you the story.
/sarcasim
Yep, they made the allies look like boy scouts on that march
/sarcsim
idiot
Skaman
12-21-2003, 02:44 AM
The Huron and Iroquois warriors during the seven years war are in a league of their own. They were efficient guerilla fighters, brutal, and extremely effective.
While the Japanese were brutal, their aggressive behavior and honor made them a force to be reckoned with. The Kamikaze actions during the Pacific war of 44-45 had completely demoralized allied troops. The allies were fortunate to have a steady flow of equipment and naval/ air supremacy, which diminished all ill fated resistance from the Japanese, essentially rendered defensive from 1943 on.
If you want to see REAL tough warriors, you look at the Iroquois. No maps, no GPS, no automatic weapons, no air recon, no medical treatment, no armor. These men were extremely devoted and stupendous warriors. They navigated the forest, ambushed their enemies, and struck fear into the European 'virus' of the New World.
FallenAngel
12-21-2003, 03:47 AM
In addition to those stated above (101st, 1st Cav, Several Marine div. for actions on Guadacanal, Tarawa, Iwo, Okinawa...., 1st, 2nd, 12th, etc SS.....)
I would have to say Nelson's squadron at Trafalger.
TF58 in the central pacific campaign. (15 Carriers and 12 Battleships at it's core)
RAF in the summer-fall of 1940 (although if tactics had been changed, the Germans would have handed them their asses.)
digrar
12-21-2003, 04:26 AM
Australian 10 Light Horse Regiment charging on foot into well sighted machine gun fire at Gallipoli in WWI under British orders. After watching the 1st Light Horse regiment being destroyed in two and a half minutes the Tenth looked around knowing what the results of the attack would be and shaked each others hands and said goodbye to their mates, went over the top and got cut down wave after wave.
If you want to see REAL tough warriors, you look at the Iroquois. No maps, no GPS, no automatic weapons, no air recon, no medical treatment, no armor. These men were extremely devoted and stupendous warriors. They navigated the forest, ambushed their enemies, and struck fear into the European 'virus' of the New World.
and the americans-europeans had gps, automatic weapons, air recon, and armor? you are talking about native indians and british/americans in the 17th to 18th century right? well hell, we didnt have that **** either! what are you on? maybe we had a gatling in latter wars but it was hardly forest worthy and was so heavy as to slow down anywhere it travelled (custer aka the lack of)
and yes the indians had very effective medicines and great herbal remedies that celebrities pay ass over fist for to get these made for them modern day so yes they had very good medicine, just not so great "doctors". then again if you were wounded back then and werent a higher up officer your doctor would be a bottle of scotch and a hack saw. so they actually had much better "medicine" than we ever did during those times.
they didnt need maps in thier own backyard and homes, and our maps were useless since no one went into every inch of the forest and mapped it out! american maps were of retarted, easy target roads for how many years? how long did it take adventureres to get out and just map a trail across the lands in a single direction let alone with indians help and they had never travelled that far either?
i agree indians are bad asses but for thier stealth, outdoor survivability and mobility and tracking abilities, not any of your very weird reasons.
and yes, if you took a indian today and dumped him in the middle of the woods half a world away he'd be as lost as ****. that is why modern day warriors use gps, because they usually dont fight in thier backyard!
Shake n Bake
12-21-2003, 08:49 AM
I just saw Band of brothers..
That was some **** Easy Company got put thru.
oldsoak
12-21-2003, 09:51 AM
WWII German paras , Aussies in PNG, Scottish regiments at New Orleans whose discipline never broke under the most severe fire, French forces at Dunkirk who held the defensive perimeter knowing that they werent going to get evacuated to Britain - USMC in the pacific campaign - the list goes on and on. In the past three hundred years, most if not all western nations have produced units of note and repute.
Airsofters...Hands down. Those though guys are our future.
Deuterium
12-21-2003, 12:40 PM
The japanese in nearly every theatre of war during ww2. These men made the allies look like boy scouts.
Yep they raped and killed far more Chinese than we could ever hope to.
EvanL
12-21-2003, 01:39 PM
If you want to see REAL tough warriors, you look at the Iroquois. No maps, no GPS, no automatic weapons, no air recon, no medical treatment, no armor. These men were extremely devoted and stupendous warriors. They navigated the forest, ambushed their enemies, and struck fear into the European 'virus' of the New World.
and the americans-europeans had gps, automatic weapons, air recon, and armor? you are talking about native indians and british/americans in the 17th to 18th century right? well hell, we didnt have that **** either! what are you on? maybe we had a gatling in latter wars but it was hardly forest worthy and was so heavy as to slow down anywhere it travelled (custer aka the lack of)
and yes the indians had very effective medicines and great herbal remedies that celebrities pay ass over fist for to get these made for them modern day so yes they had very good medicine, just not so great "doctors". then again if you were wounded back then and werent a higher up officer your doctor would be a bottle of scotch and a hack saw. so they actually had much better "medicine" than we ever did during those times.
they didnt need maps in thier own backyard and homes, and our maps were useless since no one went into every inch of the forest and mapped it out! american maps were of retarted, easy target roads for how many years? how long did it take adventureres to get out and just map a trail across the lands in a single direction let alone with indians help and they had never travelled that far either?
i agree indians are bad asses but for thier stealth, outdoor survivability and mobility and tracking abilities, not any of your very weird reasons.
and yes, if you took a indian today and dumped him in the middle of the woods half a world away he'd be as lost as ****. that is why modern day warriors use gps, because they usually dont fight in thier backyard!
Thats a blatantly ignorant statement. :bash: :bash:
Argyll
12-21-2003, 01:41 PM
24th Regiment of Foot at Rorkes Drift...........nothing else compares!!
Deuterium
12-21-2003, 02:10 PM
If you want to see REAL tough warriors, you look at the Iroquois. No maps, no GPS, no automatic weapons, no air recon, no medical treatment, no armor. These men were extremely devoted and stupendous warriors. They navigated the forest, ambushed their enemies, and struck fear into the European 'virus' of the New World.
and the americans-europeans had gps, automatic weapons, air recon, and armor? you are talking about native indians and british/americans in the 17th to 18th century right? well hell, we didnt have that **** either! what are you on? maybe we had a gatling in latter wars but it was hardly forest worthy and was so heavy as to slow down anywhere it travelled (custer aka the lack of)
and yes the indians had very effective medicines and great herbal remedies that celebrities pay ass over fist for to get these made for them modern day so yes they had very good medicine, just not so great "doctors". then again if you were wounded back then and werent a higher up officer your doctor would be a bottle of scotch and a hack saw. so they actually had much better "medicine" than we ever did during those times.
they didnt need maps in thier own backyard and homes, and our maps were useless since no one went into every inch of the forest and mapped it out! american maps were of retarted, easy target roads for how many years? how long did it take adventureres to get out and just map a trail across the lands in a single direction let alone with indians help and they had never travelled that far either?
i agree indians are bad asses but for thier stealth, outdoor survivability and mobility and tracking abilities, not any of your very weird reasons.
and yes, if you took a indian today and dumped him in the middle of the woods half a world away he'd be as lost as ****. that is why modern day warriors use gps, because they usually dont fight in thier backyard!
Thats a blatantly ignorant statement. :bash: :bash:
He picked all the classical stereotypes too. But hey that's okay if you're a Lefty. Its only when conservatives or those on the Right say these things that they are condemned. Typical arrogance.
Thats a blatantly ignorant statement. :bash: :bash:
yes and canada is americas attic, you never want to go there and half the time you forget its there. now which EXACT part is so ignorant? can you carry on half a conversation and please explain?
EvanL
12-21-2003, 02:50 PM
Thats a blatantly ignorant statement. :bash: :bash:
yes and canada is americas attic, you never want to go there and half the time you forget its there. now which EXACT part is so ignorant? can you carry on half a conversation and please explain?
Thank you for proving my point.
Thats a blatantly ignorant statement. :bash: :bash:
yes and canada is americas attic, you never want to go there and half the time you forget its there. now which EXACT part is so ignorant? can you carry on half a conversation and please explain?
Thank you for proving my point.
exactly, youcome, insult someone, and cant explain why or carry a conversation, hows it feel? i mean if you have a point then id like to hear it, but starting off rude is like smacking someone and walking away without telling them why? this is base human interaction and you cant even carry that? simply amaizing.
California Joe
12-21-2003, 03:58 PM
I'm going with Argyll on this one.
Isn't it amazing how Duci 19 always manages to hold a strange opinion on everything?
I've studied the 7 Years War. SOG made very valid points. The Indians did influence the Rangers of the time period. The Indians were completely at home in those woods, they were HUNTERS whereas the average indentured servant turned farmer was at a HUGE dissadvantage. There are a great many myths associated with the Native Americans. They set fire to a great many acres in the east in order to flush game and increase their chances while hunting over open land, they had slaves, they were not some magical LotR elven society.
Vance
12-21-2003, 04:02 PM
Airsofters...Hands down. Those though guys are our future.
http://airsoftextreme.com/images/games/nd.jpg
;)
California Joe
12-21-2003, 04:15 PM
That picture cracks me the hell up everytime.
Spartans at Thermopylae?
Col MacDonnel and the Scots Guards and Coldstreamers at Hougoumont farm during Waterloo?
Irish Brigade before Mayre's Heights at Fredericksburg.
Deuterium
12-21-2003, 04:22 PM
... Adam in the backyard.
Argyll
12-21-2003, 04:34 PM
Morelike somebody in Adams backyard!! ;)
California Joe
12-21-2003, 04:35 PM
Quit hijacking threads. Never catch me doing that..... ;)
Argyll
12-21-2003, 04:38 PM
No thats true Joe,according to National news Adam B fought a brave and valiant battle with hundreds of cyber warriors and still came away to tell the story
California Joe
12-21-2003, 04:50 PM
I stand corrected. As one vulture said to another "Carrion"
Argyll
12-21-2003, 04:56 PM
rofl
Yah just crack me up there mate!!
Fliptape
12-21-2003, 05:09 PM
how about Rhodesia`s Selous Scouts.
They did a whole lot of asskickin`
Argyll
12-21-2003, 05:11 PM
There's to many to chose from really!!
The Israeli's at Entebbe were pretty good too
Va_Dinger
12-21-2003, 05:19 PM
Better drop Totenkopf (3rd) off the list. Most importantly, they had loads of sadistic concentration camp guards on their payroll and routinely rotated personnel between the camps and the division. Militarily, they were a sorry bunch in France in 1940 and still in Russia in 1941, more known for their brutality against POWs than combat prowess. Then they improved, being nearly annihilated at the siege of Kholm in the winter of 41/42, but in the end withstanding all Soviet assaults. After getting their ranks filled with a new stream of psychopathic killers, they then bled white against the Soviet defenses at Kursk in 1943. And in-between, managed to slaughter countless Russian civilians as "partisans". If I remember correctly, the division's final mission was the unsuccessful recapture of Budapest with the 6th SS Panzer army in early 1945 after which they eventually surrendered to the Soviets and were mostly "put to the sword". And every one of them would have deserved this fate.
I'd be carefull taking "war crimes" into the comparision. Expecially when Russian units are involved. Russian troops comitted horrible crimes on the eastern front. Totenkoph certianly started off slow and did at first have a rotation with concentration camps. But, by 1943 it was as good a combat formation as any in the Waffen-SS. Any defeats it suffered late in the war were not becuase its performance.
Salty Dog
12-21-2003, 06:14 PM
the continental army,navy and marines during the revolutionary war.
Minjin
12-21-2003, 10:01 PM
The Huron and Iroquois warriors during the seven years war are in a league of their own. They were efficient guerilla fighters, brutal, and extremely effective.
That is putting it mildly. I was doing some research for a paper when I was in University and came across letters home from soldiers in that war. They had been transferred to microfiche so we could have access to them. Every one that mentioned the natives did so in such a way that you couldn't help but feel that the author of the letter was absolutely terrified by the natives and their unique way of fighting.
They aren't really organized into a regiment or anything but they still deserve consideration in this context. Great warriors from a bygone age.
the_spec
12-21-2003, 10:21 PM
I personally wouldn't include units that proved their "toughness" or better, acquired a reputation of being tough, in only a single combat engagement, as some here did.
Also I think it's quite difficult to determine that if you have a time span of 300 years. Some units fought barely a year, others fought 5, some units won a single decisive battle, others showed their worth time and again in many less important ones, some units just made best use of their technological advantage, others simply had the better soldiers.
For me personally it would be the 2nd and 5th Waffen SS Panzer divisions. Given the odds against they were fighting in the last years and the lack of almost everything, they sure put up a tough fight. The only atrocities I could find were commited by elements of the 2nd SS Panzer. But taken that most people think that the whole waffen SS were murders, that's probably not important.
PsihoKeke
12-22-2003, 02:08 AM
About Totenkopf they surendered to Americans, but they turned them over to Soviets, becouse they were ''already full of prisoners''.
About toughnes. Third batallion of Prešerns brigade was (thanks of traitor) suprised in ski hotel, resting after long winter march. German attack on hotel failed, so they set it on fire with mortars. Several groups of partisans tried to break out but were cut down by machineguns. Germans were pounding hotel with everything they had and offered partisans chance to surrender but they refused and continued to fight from the basment of the burning building. On two ocasions partisans managed to germans into coming close to basement (they stoped firing and germans thought they are dead). At the nightfall, those few that still could walk tried to breakout and those that couldn't shot themseves. Germans then finished those wounded that were left from breakout attempts.
Lone Wolf
12-22-2003, 08:42 AM
i fear asian armies... japs, koreans, chinese... they look intimidating
Jack Mehoff
12-22-2003, 01:44 PM
How about vote for other country instead of your OWN?
I probably have to give it to the German SS during WW2
And any unit with Jack Mehoff in it :D
Jack Mehoff
12-22-2003, 01:54 PM
No mention of any French unit?
Argyll
12-22-2003, 02:04 PM
aye ok Jack just for you the 1st BEP at Dein Bein Phu
Jack Mehoff
12-22-2003, 02:06 PM
I thought French lost Dien Bien Phu, not a surprise there.
Argyll
12-22-2003, 02:09 PM
:D They did but ,all jocking aside ,and considering there were a lot of ex Waffen SS in their Ranks,they fought a losing battle against overwhelming odds,but they fought hand to hand,and in some of the bloodiest fighting of the Indo China war
Argyll
12-22-2003, 02:11 PM
How about a unit from each century and the reason for your choice?
300 years by TF160 is only covering the history of the USA!!
Ratamacue
12-22-2003, 02:57 PM
Well just to be a smartass, covering the history of the USA would be 227 years (or 228, depending on how you see it). ;)
Argyll
12-22-2003, 03:00 PM
:D
I think this is what TF was maybe driving at,there are units and Armies of the past steeped in history!!
Armour recon
12-22-2003, 03:35 PM
Surprise i'm going to say finnish long range patrols in winter war.
and the soldiers who fought in stalingrad. Both German and Russian.
In that cold for so long...tough bastards.
Let's keep with the eternal fetish of all adolescent boys, the germans of WWII. Instead of the SS thugs operating under mostly incompetetent commanders, I select three Wehrmacht units:
The 11th Panzer Division fighting a defensive battle at the river Chir close to Stalingrad, after the encirclement. Commanded by general Balck they annihilate whole russian tank units and secure the Chir line for the planned rescue attack towards Stalingrad.
The Panzergrenadier Division "Grossdeutschland", the elite Division of the Wehrmacht. Used as a fire brigade in all the hot spots of the Eastern Front and rarely conceding defeat.
The "Brandenburger" special operations unit that will often try and achieve the impossible. Often fight as conventional light infantry but every now and then take part in spectacular operations.
Skaman
12-22-2003, 04:19 PM
If you want to see REAL tough warriors, you look at the Iroquois. No maps, no GPS, no automatic weapons, no air recon, no medical treatment, no armor. These men were extremely devoted and stupendous warriors. They navigated the forest, ambushed their enemies, and struck fear into the European 'virus' of the New World.
and the americans-europeans had gps, automatic weapons, air recon, and armor? you are talking about native indians and british/americans in the 17th to 18th century right? well hell, we didnt have that **** either! what are you on? maybe we had a gatling in latter wars but it was hardly forest worthy and was so heavy as to slow down anywhere it travelled (custer aka the lack of)
and yes the indians had very effective medicines and great herbal remedies that celebrities pay ass over fist for to get these made for them modern day so yes they had very good medicine, just not so great "doctors". then again if you were wounded back then and werent a higher up officer your doctor would be a bottle of scotch and a hack saw. so they actually had much better "medicine" than we ever did during those times.
they didnt need maps in thier own backyard and homes, and our maps were useless since no one went into every inch of the forest and mapped it out! american maps were of retarted, easy target roads for how many years? how long did it take adventureres to get out and just map a trail across the lands in a single direction let alone with indians help and they had never travelled that far either?
i agree indians are bad asses but for thier stealth, outdoor survivability and mobility and tracking abilities, not any of your very weird reasons.
and yes, if you took a indian today and dumped him in the middle of the woods half a world away he'd be as lost as ****. that is why modern day warriors use gps, because they usually dont fight in thier backyard!
I am comparing traditional Iroquois/Huron warriors to the modern/ western ideal of an elite fighting unit. While western military units make use of mapping, compass, and other such navigation tools, the Native warrior effectively ambushed and overcame their enemies with stupendous results, as they were so knowledgeable of the land. Unfortunately, European born pathogens would diminish Native populations over time.
Argyll
12-22-2003, 05:14 PM
The Brandenburgers were all the criminals and dregs of society who were given the choice jail or fight!
As for the SS having Incompetent Commanders
Sepp Deitrich
Joachim Piper
Kurt "Panzer" Meyer
Otto Skorzeny
Were all excellent commanders according to the testament of their men
NcDeuce
12-22-2003, 05:23 PM
Airsofters...Hands down. Those though guys are our future.
http://airsoftextreme.com/images/games/nd.jpg
;)
rofl
Armour recon
12-22-2003, 06:10 PM
Airsofters...Hands down. Those though guys are our future.
http://airsoftextreme.com/images/games/nd.jpg
;)
rofl
Looks like Josh Hartnett jr.
Dietrich and Piper both failed miserably against American and British forces during the Battle of the Bulge. The furthest penetrations made were by regular Wehrmacht Panzer Divisions while the SS Panzer Army with the newest equipment was stopped dead in íts tracks after only modest advances. This was to be expected, how could a former bavarian butcher like Dietrich keep up with general staff educated rational prussian professional officers? The SS officers were brutal and ready to sacrifice their men, but never grasped the strategic level of war as others like Manstein or Guderian did.
SteelHand
12-22-2003, 08:33 PM
I'd have to go with the Ghurkas myself. Scary little men they are.
Tane Angle
12-23-2003, 01:17 AM
With all due respect and regard for all other units, especially SOF ones, out there, my vote goes to Delta and the ISA. Of them, the toughest of the tough are our inside people. So much for no women in high risk situations. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...
no particular order...
#1. 101st Airborne, why? Normandy, Bastogne, countless fields in Vietnam, GW1, Afghanistan, GW2. i'm a little biased of course, my uncle was in the 101st during Vietnam...
#2. 75th Ranger Regiment
#3. SAS + Royal Marine Commandos, the original badass SOF units...
#4. 10th Mountain, they wouldnt be deployed so much if they were'nt tough...
James
12-23-2003, 02:37 AM
Whenever I see threads like this, I always hope that the person who originated it will provide some definitions. What makes a unit tough? Is it the selection process or what the unit has done in an actual combat situation? And what makes the battle tough? Is it only the fighting, or does the environment play a role as well?
I think that 300 years of world history is an awful lot to cover for such a topic. That said...
18th Century - the untrained and poorly equipped men in the fledgling United States who (with a bit of help from our French friends ;) ) won freedom from the most powerful empire of the day.
19th Century - the British Rifle Brigade (was it the 94th Regiment of Foot?) during the Peninsular war and other adventures on the continent, fighting the French under Bonaparte.
20th Century - the 4th Marine Brigade (USMC) in World War One. They (the men) won every engagement they were in in spite of questionable leadership, poor training, and horrendous casualties.
21st Century - the 1000 (give or take) Allied SOF forces and our militia friends that drove the Taliban and Al-Quada from Afghanistan in the fall and winter of 2001.
Seiyuuki
12-23-2003, 02:59 AM
The Jedi.
James
12-23-2003, 03:14 AM
The Jedi.
:roll:
The topic is limited to the last 300 years. The Jedi were around a long time ago...
FallenAngel
12-23-2003, 03:43 AM
The Jedi.
:roll:
The topic is limited to the last 300 years. The Jedi were around a long time ago...
Damnit...I was going to add Imperial Royal Guard. :(
Royal
12-23-2003, 04:43 AM
19th Century - the British Rifle Brigade (was it the 94th Regiment of Foot?) during the Peninsular war and other adventures on the continent, fighting the French under Bonaparte.
The 95th. They were never a Regiment of foot - they were 'the rifles'.
Seeing as I'm in this thread now, God's Corps ;)
James
12-23-2003, 06:00 AM
God's Corps then. A bunch of tough bastards. Forgive me for making them a regiment if lowly foot. :)
Argyll
12-23-2003, 06:40 AM
93rd Highlanders at Balaklava.............The Thin Red Line!
fantassin
12-23-2003, 07:04 AM
The Groupes de Commandos Mixtes Aéroportés, the GCMA.
These were hand picked French special forces operators who parachuted behind vietcong lines in Indochina to train, equip and lead Montagnards Tribes against the communists in the early 50s.
They were living with the tribes for up to two years at a time...they jumped in teams of three or four, the chief, a 2iC, a radio operator and sometimes a medic, with weapons, silver bullions and bags of salt, the only known currencies of those tribes. No fire support, no medevac, no helicopter, no QRF, no R&R....
They disrupted VC operations so much that they had to divert whole divisions to fight them. Even though France officialy left Indochina in 1954, the GCMAs kept on fighting until 1957 when a last call asking for ammo was received...
When US SF arrived, they thought it was such a good idea they restarted it...and recruited what they called the "Yards", corruption of the french word montagnards, or mountain people. The differences were that the US were in A Teams of 12, had unlimited fire support, regular R&R, one-year tours and Uncle Sam's logistics.
But the outcome was exactly the same.
Visit this link for more infos on the GCMA:
http://www.gia-vuc.com/indo/INDOCHINEgcma.htm
16 OBr SpN
12-23-2003, 08:21 AM
It's very hard to say, because many countries have very tough troops.
But...
1) German and Finnish jaegers (correct me if I misspelled it).
2) Troops at Stalingrad, especially Russian storm groups.
3) Israeli Sayeret Matkal.
4) British SAS and Royal Marines
5) American SF in Vietnam
And of course, Russian VDV, Marines, and Spetsnaz!! ;)
Regards,
16 OBr SpN
XVIII century: Regiments Alcantara and Lusitania of cavalry. And specially TForce of governor Gálvez in American Revolution War, never so few men conquered so big territory in North America with the exception of Cortés centuries before him.
XIX: All infantry regiments and cavalry squadrons who got the first big victory over napoleonic troops in europe, in battle of Bailen, 1808. commanded by General Castaños, special mention to the andalusian cavalry squadrons. And all the irregular units who were built up for fighting the frenchs by unexperienced people and got enough experience for becoming the best soldiers of that war, my favourites are Julian Sánchez El Charro, from Salamanca, and Juan Martin El Empecinado from Burgos, although both them were professional soldiers when they were youngs, but they built big and organized forces of dispereses groups.
And the Pablo Morillo´s army sent to SouthAmerica in the early XIX century, and the cavalry squadrons of Boves, who fought in Venezuela in the same time
XX century: Tropas Regulares Indígenas and Tercio de la Legion in the Rif Wars, and the same units in Spanish Civil war in the Franco´s side, both infantry units and really good and tough in all senses, and in the Republic side, the 5º Regiment, and the 11 Division built around the 5º Regiment. And the Commandos Units of Republic trained in the Escuela de Guerrilleros de la Republica, I think it must be the first irregular war school created in XX century in europe, and the most of them fought in the II WW sharing their skills and their blood in the fight against nazism being part as coaches and fighters of the first Long Range British Patrols , the Tchad Column of Leclerq, the main Resistence groups in France and being parachuted behind the german lines in the east front in the forests of Ukraine in groups like the Medvediev column.
OldRecon
12-23-2003, 12:27 PM
Well "hard" in this context can mean a lot of different things like:
Physical strenght, load carrying ability and marching ability on foot.
Ability to achieve much out of little.
Abilty to dominate the opposition on the scene of action / field of battle tactically and/or technicaly.
Ability to suffer hardships.
Ability to stand upp to pressure.
Weapons proficiency.
Proficiency in field craft.
And last but not least consistency in performance with regards to all of the above factors.
As there are so many to choose from I cannot rank units but as for "though units" or soldiers within the specified timeframe one can f.ex. mention:
The Grognards of Napoleon, Allied WW-2 Paratrooper/airborne/commando/ranger units
German WW-2 paratroopers
Finish soldiers during the Winter war and Continuation war,
Russian soldiers have allways through history seemed to be better able to take hardships in the field than many of their opponents
The Japanese likewise seems to have been able to achieve quite a lot given their limited resources (even though they lost badly in the end), Some Waffen SS units (like the Leibstandarte, Das Reich, Totenkopf, Wiking, Hohenstaufen, Nordland) built themselves a quite formidable reputation the battlefields of WW-2. Although at the same time most of them also tarnished that reputation with a notoriety for attrocities and indifferent treatment of prisoners (especially on the Eastern front).
Though I think having the Panther, tiger, nebelwerfer, Mortars, MGs 34/42, the 88 mm gun and the Panzerfaust helped a lot on the combat power of German forces (at least against the Wester Allies after 1942) during WW-2.
The armies of Mao seems to have some of the same qualities as the Japanese, and managed to give the UN forces quite a match during the Korean war.
The NVA managed to wait out the americans in NAM, despite the greater firepower of the americans.
The ROK forces fighting along other allied forces in NAM have been recognized as some of the most effective in theatre at the time.
The Australians appeared to have been quite resourceful in both World wars. Gaining a particularly good reputation for themselves on the Western front during the latter stages of WW-1 and in the Desert mounted corps in Palestine at the same time. In WW-2 perhaps not so dominant vs. the German opposition during the previous WW, yet being one of the core units of the British forces in the Western dessert against Rommel. Likewise doing quite well against the Japanes on New Guinea.
The Canadians had a similar reputation to the Australians on the Western front during WW-1. Though this reputation does not seem to have been equalled during WW-2 (at least with regards to the Western front after D-day, not having an easy time of it against the German formations (some Waffen SS) ranged against them). On the Italian front the Canadian reputation appears to have been somewhat better though). During the Korean war the reputation of the Canadian elements there was up to WW-1 level. Especially with regards to the "Van Doos".
The french forces fighting inland of Cassiono during WW-2 were instrumental in breaking the deadlock there. The French Paras during the wars in Indo-China and Algeria appears also to have been though formations.
......and so on and so on.....
OldRecon
12-23-2003, 12:37 PM
Wasnt the 82nd at Bastonge too? y does 101 get all the fame
No they were on the northern shoulder of the Bulge near Malmedy, helping in containing the Battlegroup led by Jochen Peiper of the Waffen SS Leibstandarte division.
IDFM203
12-23-2003, 03:05 PM
All the units mentioned above are most defiantly deserving. I would just like to add few Israeli units that stand out a bit from the rest of the qualified units in the IDF that have fought in some of the toughest battles and against the type of odds that they had to face, which as a result makes them deserving to be on this thread.
Well I will say that besides Sayeret Matakl and Shayetet13 that have done some incredible things deep inside of enemy territory and have been in constant battle for the past fifty years (a lot of which is unknown and classified) I would also like to mention a few other Israeli units that belong here.
The first besides those two would be the paratroopers and their conduct in the 1967 war. Now while yes the IAF neutralized the skies, there were still some very heavy fighting on the ground and the paratroopers were involved in some of the heaviest fighting, especially the capture of the old city which was indeed a very bloody battle.
Second is Golani that fought some of the toughest infantry battles that Israel has ever faced when it fought in the recapture of the Golan Heights in the 1973 war. They literally scaled the mountain while the Syrians were entrenched from up above and shooting down below.
Now the next one is a bit of a departure for all the infantry units that are discussed here but this Israeli tank unit defiantly deserves to be here as well.
The 7th Armored Division along with the Barak Brigade in the 1973 war, where they faced 1200 Syrian tanks and fought for days to keep them from advancing further into Israel and barely but successfully held off till reserves finally came. In fact it was probably the biggest armour on armour fight since ww2
On a bit of a side note (but it does have some relevance to this thread), I found this listing on the French Foreign Legion site……………I found it quite interesting to say the least (especially since they are not an Israeli or Israeli biased site at all).
http://www.frenchforeignlegion.org/database/data/dta057.html
One other thing I found interesting and by no means do I mean any disrespect to the Germans here and this is not meant as a flame in any way for yes the Germans are indeed one of the best and most professional troops in the world today, but I have to question their ranking of the Germans in that particular field…..I mean besides their major amateurish screw up in their failing to rescue the Israeli Munich hostages at the air port in Germany, what have they done to prove they belong that high (I mean they even put them in front of the U.S.)
Shalom :D
Javehn
12-23-2003, 03:48 PM
A little story about "Tsvika force" . I think this one acctually been talled in here somewhere ,so i will make it short.
1973-Yom kipur war. Syrian forces braking Israeli lines on Golan hights , destroying on it's way small randomly Barak brigade tank units . Sunday-syrian tanks getting to "Nafah"-Israeli division command post . Situation is very bad.
5 tanks in vicinity of Nafah camp ordered to attack that syrian force . They try to do it . Barak Brigade Co , Brigade Xo , and Brigade Op. officer
killed on contact . Remaining tank of officer Tvsika Gershboym flanking syrian forces at the camp , driving between they lines , firing like crazy to all the direction . At last Syrian infantry retreating from camp , after suffering huge losses from this one tank .
That same commander before alone hit more then 30 Syrian tanks by himself alone , while jumping between different tanks , loading ammo , driving them ,and firing - Engagement at Tap line .
Skott
12-23-2003, 04:13 PM
I have always believed that Israel had 2 Bde's on the Golan Heights when the war started. The 7th and the Barak. What forces did the IDF actually have opposing the Syrians? In terms of bde´s that is.
Javehn
12-23-2003, 04:34 PM
I would love to answer to that , but unfortunatly i don't know what is Bde/
However , those 2 armored brigades are part Northern defence yes . Barak brigade was inihillated on first 2 days of the war . Completely .
The remaining couple of tanks were assigned to 7th brigade .
Royal
12-24-2003, 05:09 AM
God's Corps then. A bunch of tough bastards. Forgive me for making them a regiment if lowly foot. :)
God's Corps are indeed a tough bunch of bastards - they're the Royal Marines ;)
The 95th Rifles were not a Regiment of Foot - rifles were a new concept at the time so although given a foot regiment number (95) they were in fact part of a Brigade that was not considered 'of foot' in the same way as the Guards Regiments weren't.
Sorry British military pedantry ;)
-Max2-
12-24-2003, 12:54 PM
22nd SAS Regiment
1st SFOD-D
USMC
French Foreign Legion
and many others... ;)
NcDeuce
12-24-2003, 01:08 PM
101st Airborne Division units @ Bastogne
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/brochures/ardennes/p34.jpg
http://users.skynet.be/bs171567/webb/pic_boisenneige.jpg
http://users.skynet.be/bs171567/webb/pic_longroute.jpg
http://helios.acomp.usf.edu/~dsargent/bulge13.jpg
http://helios.acomp.usf.edu/~dsargent/bulge7.gif
http://helios.acomp.usf.edu/~dsargent/bulge12.jpg
http://helios.acomp.usf.edu/~dsargent/bulge10.jpg
http://helios.acomp.usf.edu/~dsargent/bulge6.jpg
http://helios.acomp.usf.edu/~dsargent/bulge8.jpg
101st bury their dead on Christmas Day *WARNING* GRAPHIC
http://www.campbell.army.mil/1502/images/smoke.jpg
http://www.campbell.army.mil/1502/images/truck_ride.jpg
http://www.campbell.army.mil/1502/images/standing.jpg
http://www.campbell.army.mil/1502/images/smiling_fox_hole.jpg
http://www.campbell.army.mil/1502/images/winter.jpg
Tough SOBs
http://www.campbell.army.mil/1502/Images/bastogne_sign.jpg
http://www.campbell.army.mil/1502/images/nuts.jpg
After hearing that the Germans wanted the 101st to surrender, the Acting Commander - BG General McAuliffe said "Nuts". woot
NcDeuce
12-24-2003, 01:24 PM
U.S. & British paratroopers in Normandy
http://www.campbell.army.mil/1502/images/cammo1.jpg
http://www.campbell.army.mil/1502/images/cammo2.jpg
http://www.campbell.army.mil/1502/images/prejump.jpg
http://www.campbell.army.mil/1502/images/ckecks.jpg
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/brochures/normandy/nop3.jpg
http://www.campbell.army.mil/1502/images/airplanes.jpg
http://www.campbell.army.mil/1502/images/ggod_drop_pic.jpg
http://www.campbell.army.mil/1502/images/hung.jpg
http://www.campbell.army.mil/1502/images/glider2.jpg
http://www.campbell.army.mil/1502/images/glider.jpg
http://www.jungbauer-imedia.nl/Walter_Gordon_met_Duitse_helm_Ste.jpg
http://www.jungbauer-imedia.nl/heltics_full2.gif
http://www.davidkenyonwebster.com/mainphoto.jpg
British taking Pegasus Bridge...
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/stephane.delogu/pegase2.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/stephane.delogu/pegase6.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/stephane.delogu/pegase11.jpg
http://www.normandybattlefields.com/mapphotos/29-pegasus_bridge.jpg
NcDeuce
12-24-2003, 11:19 PM
Rangers @ Point du Hoc
http://www.130thgeneralhospital.com/La_Point_du_Hac.jpg
Those men were some brave, tough SOBs for scaling those cliffs under fire.
http://freespace.virgin.net/michael.standbridge/images/pdh_out.gif
http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/tours/normandy/Images/point2.jpg
http://freespace.virgin.net/michael.standbridge/images/pdh_clff.gif
http://freespace.virgin.net/michael.standbridge/images/pdh_trch.gif
NcDeuce
12-24-2003, 11:25 PM
Marine Raiders and Paratroopers holding the line at Guadalcanal
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/guadalcanal/pics/ground/August7_Landing_GDA.JPG
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/guadalcanal/pics/ground/August7_Landing_GIO34a.JPG
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/guadalcanal/pics/ground/50_calibre_machine_gun_emplacement.jpg
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/guadalcanal/pics/ground/USMC_Paratroopers.jpg
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/guadalcanal/pics/ground/wounded_Marine_is_carried_back.jpg
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/guadalcanal/pics/ground/Marines_rest_in_the_field_August.jpg
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/guadalcanal/pics/ground/relieved_Marines_return_from_the_front.jpg
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/guadalcanal/pics/ground/Edsons_Ridge_after_the_battle.jpg
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/guadalcanal/pics/ground/some_very_close_action.jpg
*WARNING* GRAPHIC
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/guadalcanal/pics/ground/Japanese_dead_on_Edsons_Ridge.jpg
Marines survey the bodies of Japanese soldiers covering the battleground of Edson's Ridge.
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/guadalcanal/pics/ground/Jap_tank_hit_by_flamethrower.jpg
A Marine displays the head and bones of a Japanese tank crewman on top of a knocked out Japanese tank.
According to the caption, the tank was hit by a flamethrower, though this weapon did not see much use at this early stage of the war.
Marxist203
12-25-2003, 06:23 PM
Toughest units of the last 300 years? Any unit that fought the battle of Ortona, Canadian or German. That was the most brutal fight of the western theatre.
Funny story related to the end of the battle(well funny in the fact that its Ironic) German forces managed to lure 25 Canadian soldiers into a building where they promptly destroyed it...killing 16 of them. In a reprisal Canadian engineers wired the German command center some few blocks away with explosive and detonated it...killing some 80 German soldiers. The next day German soldiers were no where to be seen as they withdrew from the city.
Ortona was also referred to as "Little Stalingrad" so, the second most viscious urban battle of the war...any unit who served in Ortona.
Kitsune
12-26-2003, 12:04 PM
Ähem...@ TF160Soar
One of those pictures of "101st airborne at Bastogne", the 7th from above, shows a German soldier.
It is NOT an allied soldier wearing a German helmet for fun !!!
A bit more carefulness please
;)
Thomsen
12-26-2003, 12:55 PM
http://helios.acomp.usf.edu/~dsargent/bulge10.jpg
Indeed, typical US helmet, machin gun ammunition boxes and other equipment. ;)
Argyll
12-26-2003, 01:12 PM
http://helios.acomp.usf.edu/~dsargent/bulge10.jpg
Also note the SS runes on his collar!!
I'm honestly amazed that no one has yet mentioned the 1st Marine Division (USMC) and the 41st Independent Commando unit (Royal Marines) during the Chosin Reservoir campaign in 1950. I'm almost certain there were also attached units from the US Army but I'm afraid I don't know who they were.
NcDeuce
12-27-2003, 12:33 PM
Also note the SS runes on his collar!!
The Germans were tough SOBs! I coudln't leave 'em out!
Marmot1
12-28-2003, 08:33 PM
Westerplatte crew 205 men (civilans and soldiers) who defended polish military outopos at Gdansk for 7 days when they were bombarded by battleship, destroyers, artilery, luftwaffe, and attacked by couple of thousend germans (around 5000 were involved) they surrendered after 7days when ammo and food run out and there was no chance for relief.... they tried to hold beachhead for our "alies" from GB and France so they can deploy on the shore, they had only one 75mm canon couple mortars and couple of MG they sufferen only 15 KIA ... and surrendered with honors
Russian Texan
12-28-2003, 11:05 PM
Any soldier who fought in a battle and didn't chicken out deserves to be called tough.
My vote goes to
The Defence of Brest Fortress
Civilians can be tough also - one of my grandmothers survived 900 days of blockade Leningrad.
I dare you to find tougher man.
Stalingrad was the hardest clash of troops in IIWW, but for civilian people sure the Leningrad siege was the hardest tragedy of that conflict in all fronts.
Edited: I liked a lot all the pictures pasted in this thread, I knew some of them, but many others not. And I visited twice the northern shore of Normandy, and I was in la Point du Hoc, both times in august and, ohhh, what a windy and rainy days they were! I tried imagining mysefl climbing those cliffs under fire and frankly, I couldn´t. Brave guys.
Schiller
12-31-2003, 08:39 AM
If I had to make a selection.....
1. 22nd Special Air Service Regiment(UK)
Served in WW2(beat the **** out of Rommel and his Afrika Korps), Oman, Malaya(modern-day Malaysia), the Falklands, Sierra Leone, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq.........
2. 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment - Delta(US)
D-Boys really kick ass, a fact that we all acknowledge.
3. Imperial Japanese Army(Japan - WW2)
How many soldiers charge at tanks with bombs strapped around their asses?
4. ROK Marine Corps 2nd Battalion "Blue Dragon"(South Korea - Vietnam War)
You should really read about these crazy ****s.....One ROK Marine company actually stopped the advance of a VC division and annhilated them, with only a casualty of less than 20.
5. Sayeret Matkal(Israel)
The heroes of Entebbe, and one of the most highly-illustrated CT units in Israel.
6. French Foreign Legion(France)
The real stuff.....Fought like hell in Vietnam
.
7. Waffen SS(WW2 - 3rd Reich)
8. Seleus Scouts/SAS(Rhodesia - modern day Zimbabwe)
Really kicked the **** out of African guerillas-mostly mercenaries.
9. ANZAC(Australia & New Zealand - WW1/WW2)
Most heroic in Gallipoli landing, kicked ass in North Africa and Korea.
10. 101st Airborne(US)
WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War.........
GI_Rutger
12-31-2003, 07:49 PM
If I had to make a selection.....
1. 22nd Special Air Service Regiment(UK)
Served in WW2(beat the **** out of Rommel and his Afrika Korps), Oman, Malaya(modern-day Malaysia), the Falklands, Sierra Leone, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq.........
2. 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment - Delta(US)
D-Boys really kick ass, a fact that we all acknowledge.
I think its about the fact that an army is outnumbered, outgunned, etcetera! Like the 101st in Bastogne, the Russians in Stalingrad (although they weren't outnumbered at all, they got slaughtered by the Germans, two men for each gun, etc.) or all the German men, betrayed by Hitler without any winter clothing and back-up!
"D-Boys really kick ass", that ain't mean nothing. I think the Russians, Germans and Paratroopers were the best because they fought off the hunger, cold an the enemy with no back-up, enough ammo and clothes.
Another example are the 116th and 16th Reg on Omaha Beach. Hours stucked on a beach with no airsupport and no support from the sea, companies with an strenght of half an platoon or less.
mustamato
01-01-2004, 04:39 PM
3. Imperial Japanese Army(Japan - WW2)
How many soldiers charge at tanks with bombs strapped around their asses?
http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Piirrokset/EnglantilainenPiirrosTankintuhoajista.jpg
British newspaper about how the finns destroyed Soviet tanks during the Winter War 1939-40.
http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Varusteet/MolotovinCocktail.jpg
Molotov Cocktail, got its name during the Winter War because the russian prime ministers name was... Molotov, it was however used already during the spanish civil war, maybe earlier. Due to the lack of proper anti-tank weapon during the Winter War Oy Alko Ab bottled 500 000 Molotov's Cocktail. The fuel could be wood alcohol or gasoline or both. Tar was necessary for the smoke and to give a better grip. Later on also "blinding bottles" were made, the bottles were filled with a kind of tarry liquid that made blinding smoke when it burned..
http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Varusteet/Kasapanos.jpg
Finnish piled up charge, weighing 4-10 kg. Effective against tanks, bunkers, gun enplacements and so forth, but taking a quite strong and curageous soldier to throw them.
newyorker0852
01-03-2004, 06:22 PM
The 101 (Pukin' Chickens :D ) in the Ardennes. Living in the cold for months and still managing to kick the enemy's ass is truely honorable.
fantassin
01-04-2004, 06:02 AM
Général Eblé "pontonniers" (bridge layers) who built a 90 metres (280 ft) bridge over the river Berezina neck deep into freezing water on November the 26, 27 and 28, 1812 while being attacked and shelled by russian troops at the same time.
Andyman
01-04-2004, 09:54 PM
Easy company was pretty impressive for what they accomplished in WW2, eventhough they were fighting an already doomed German Army. Oh and band of brother is a kick ass mini series I own the DVD set HOOAAAHH!
I may also hand it out to the German units of WW2 especially the 2nd Waffen SS division. They went from beginning to end west to east and were largely successful until the later years of the war.
To read a good book about the the 2nd waffen SS division read:
DAS REICH by James Lucas
fantassin
01-05-2004, 01:33 AM
Das Reich was the 2nd SS Division ,not the 22nd.
Das Reich was also extremly good at slaughtering defenceless civilians; if in doubt, visit the village of Oradour-sur-Glanes near Limoges in France. Units of Das Reich came down on the village, rounding up all the men and gunning them down; then they put all the females and children in the church and burnt in down. For good measure, they threw some children in a well (along with some grenades, just for fun).
The death toll was around 650 at the end of the day; it was a retaliation against the fact that the Das Reich division had been relentlessly attacked by resistance units in the past days, attacks that had kidnapped and killed of of the division's officers.
The village still stands as it was left by the SS when they left as a testimony to Nazi madness. A visit there is unforgettable.
Andyman
01-05-2004, 03:19 AM
oops typo. :oops:
Anyways I never said that they were great guys and that they treated their captivees well. I beleive that the post was about strong and successful military units. Therefore I think that based on what they accomplished on the battlefield Das Reich was a strong fighting force.
StarvingStudent47
01-05-2004, 04:28 AM
Anyways I never said that they were great guys and that they treated their captivees well. I beleive that the post was about strong and successful military units. Therefore I think that based on what they accomplished on the battlefield Das Reich was a strong fighting force.
Right now on the History Channel there's a documentary on the Waffen SS. Lots of interviews with survivors of their massacres. This isn't a unit I'd hold up as one of the "toughest of the past 300 years." Unless you think that mass-murder of civilians proves a soldier's toughness.
Let's not forget that the SS were in charge of the Holocaust. Rounding up and murdering Jews was a major part of their duties and no discussion of their so-called "successes" is complete without it.
Andyman
01-05-2004, 02:35 PM
There were seperate divisions within the SS that were assigned to holocaust duties. Therefore divisions like the 2nd Waffen SS were on the battlefield only. Therefore I don't label them as merciless executioners cause as far as I know and from what I have read the 2nd Waffen SS never did any of the things like rounding up and killing civilians.
I'm not saying that anyone is wrong but provide some proof cause that book I read about the 2nd never mentioned anything about civilian killings
fantassin
01-05-2004, 03:28 PM
Can't have read much then...only one SS division, the 17 SS Div. Gotz Von Berlichingen was never accused of war crimes. And it probably was because it was
1- made up of drafted and older men (not SS volunteers for the most part)
2- only used on the Western Front
Extract from the trials hearing of a member of the Das Reich by the British at the end of WW2
Q. In June, 1944, for instance, the Panzer Grenadier Regiment 3 burned the village of St-Germain-de-Belair. You know nothing of that?
A. No, at the moment I do not.
Q. And Oradour-sur-Glane? It was the "Das Reich" Division that was responsible for that atrocity, was it not, when 793 men, women and children were deliberately murdered? You never heard of the atrocities of Oradour-sur-Glane performed by the "Das Reich" Division when it was a component part of your corps?
A. That name and the accusation came to my knowledge here, during my captivity, from the Indictment. Before that I had no knowledge of it. It apparently concerns an individual. company belonging to that division, which was put into action through local orders of the Field Kommandantur.
Q. Was not the Panzer Grenadier Regiment under your command?
A. No, at that time it was not yet under my command because I only returned to France from the East at the end of June.
Q. That was characteristic use of the units of Waffen SS for these terror purposes then, was it not - the very point I have been putting to you for many minutes through this cross- examination?
A. I have repeatedly stated that it was not a characteristic of this division.
Q. The Death's Head Division, when did you command that?
A. The Death's Head Division too came under my command at the same time, from the end of January, 1943, until August, 1943.
Q. Did you know that the 1st Regiment, the 7th Company of a detachment , belonging to the Totenkopf Division, had in Warsaw murdered about 45,000 Jewish men, women and children. Did you not hear of that?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't want to argue anymore about that. If you think the Waffen SS are heroes and to be praised, it must be because they never had the opportunity to exert their sickening ways on YOUR soil and on YOUR people.
Apart from the Malmédy massacre by KG Peiper in 1944, the USA never had to feel what Waffen SS racial theories, handling of POWs and treatment of civilians units were. That's probably why so many americans think the SS are so "cool"; The Canadians lost almost 65 POWs slaughtered by the 12 SS Division in the first few days after D-Day...
That's why you don't find that sort of enthusiasm in what was occupied Europe.
http://www.dasreich.ca/oradourindex.html
The last straw: direct from the "Das Reich" Homepage....
EvanL
01-05-2004, 04:24 PM
Can't have read much then...only one SS division, the 17 SS Div. Gotz Von Berlichingen was never accused of war crimes. And it probably was because it was
1- made up of drafted and older men (not SS volunteers for the most part)
2- only used on the Western Front
Extract from the trials hearing of a member of the Das Reich by the British at the end of WW2
Q. In June, 1944, for instance, the Panzer Grenadier Regiment 3 burned the village of St-Germain-de-Belair. You know nothing of that?
A. No, at the moment I do not.
Q. And Oradour-sur-Glane? It was the "Das Reich" Division that was responsible for that atrocity, was it not, when 793 men, women and children were deliberately murdered? You never heard of the atrocities of Oradour-sur-Glane performed by the "Das Reich" Division when it was a component part of your corps?
A. That name and the accusation came to my knowledge here, during my captivity, from the Indictment. Before that I had no knowledge of it. It apparently concerns an individual. company belonging to that division, which was put into action through local orders of the Field Kommandantur.
Q. Was not the Panzer Grenadier Regiment under your command?
A. No, at that time it was not yet under my command because I only returned to France from the East at the end of June.
Q. That was characteristic use of the units of Waffen SS for these terror purposes then, was it not - the very point I have been putting to you for many minutes through this cross- examination?
A. I have repeatedly stated that it was not a characteristic of this division.
Q. The Death's Head Division, when did you command that?
A. The Death's Head Division too came under my command at the same time, from the end of January, 1943, until August, 1943.
Q. Did you know that the 1st Regiment, the 7th Company of a detachment , belonging to the Totenkopf Division, had in Warsaw murdered about 45,000 Jewish men, women and children. Did you not hear of that?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't want to argue anymore about that. If you think the Waffen SS are heroes and to be praised, it must be because they never had the opportunity to exert their sickening ways on YOUR soil and on YOUR people.
Apart from the Malmédy massacre by KG Peiper in 1944, the USA never had to feel what Waffen SS racial theories, handling of POWs and treatment of civilians units were. That's probably why so many americans think the SS are so "cool"; The Canadians lost almost 65 POWs slaughtered by the 12 SS Division in the first few days after D-Day...
That's why you don't find that sort of enthusiasm in what was occupied Europe.
http://www.dasreich.ca/oradourindex.html
The last straw: direct from the "Das Reich" Homepage....
Tis true. They marched our men one by one down a cobble ston pathway into a hedgerow and as they turned the corner they would fire a bullet into the backs of their heads. Each soldier waiting to be marched down the path knew what he was heading into and hugged his pals goodbye. SOme of them even made light of the situation dancing down the path or goose-stepping beside the nazis.
ArmedPacifist
01-05-2004, 05:54 PM
This thread isn't about heroes and villians. It is about military units that were "in the ****".
EvanL
01-05-2004, 05:58 PM
I feel personally and patriotically that the soldiers who landed at Dieppe are some of the bravest soldiers ever. They knew that it was suicide they were getting into, and that they were being used as pawns, yet they still went ahead greatly outnumbered and managed.
StarvingStudent47
01-05-2004, 07:46 PM
This thread isn't about heroes and villians. It is about military units that were "in the ****".
That changes nothing, unless people think that executing unarmed civilians and disarmed POWs constitutes being "in the ****."
spectre5
01-06-2004, 04:26 AM
I would say finnish troops in the winter war. Santas little helpers destroyet russian t34 tanks with molotov-coctails. When the germans encountered the t34 what did they do :D .. They were runing back to german with their skirts covering their heads.
t.
Antti Korpela
I change this post to other post because it´s not the right place.
Andyman
01-06-2004, 02:02 PM
I guess I stand corrected. My bad :cantbeli:
scoone
01-06-2004, 02:06 PM
1.-Scots Guards
2.-Coldstream Guards
3.-US Marine Corps
4.-Regimiento de Caballeria Alcantara
Roger Rabbit
01-06-2004, 02:20 PM
Scoone why have you chosen those particular units? Just curious.
scoone
01-06-2004, 02:36 PM
Scoone why have you chosen those particular units? Just curious.
Ok i'll tell you :
1.-Scots Guards : Falkland Islands, they won at night and at the point of the bayonet, the battle for Mount Tumbledown.Bayonet fighting in the 80's, one of the last ( if not the last ) battles won that way.
2.-Coldstream Guards: The oldest unit in the british army .Messing around for a very long time Nulli secundus.
3.-USMC. They have fought bravely in every part of the world.In any war there are Marines , a fine troop with a unusual "spirit de corps"
4.Reg.Cab.Alcantara. Their duty in the Africa war was splendid.A true and brave spanish unit specially during the summer of 1921 in Morocco
StarvingStudent47
01-06-2004, 05:13 PM
A group of three woman who fought with coctails molotovs and dynamite against tanks and professional soldiers, they were civil women converted in soldiers in few days. I doubt any SForce of today have the spirit and bravery and, too, skill they showed.
Several people already have talked about brave civilians-turned-combatants. No discussion of such folks is complete without mentioning the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. A 23-year-old named Mordecai Anielewicz led 750 civilians, armed with a few small arms they had smuggled in, and prevented Waffen SS units from taking a two-square mile area of city for approximately four weeks. If that's not being "in the ****," I'm not sure what is.
Several people already have talked about brave civilians-turned-combatants. No discussion of such folks is complete without mentioning the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. A 23-year-old named Mordecai Anielewicz led 750 civilians, armed with a few small arms they had smuggled in, and prevented Waffen SS units from taking a two-square mile area of city for approximately four weeks. If that's not being "in the ****," I'm not sure what is.
I agree you, but it isn´t contradictory with my example.
StarvingStudent47
01-07-2004, 12:32 PM
I agree you, but it isn´t contradictory with my example.
I never said it was. The people you mentioned are darned cool. I was just mentioning others in addition.
TriggerPuller
01-07-2004, 05:39 PM
U.S. Marines 5th and 6th regiments Battle of Belleau Woods,WW1. This is where the germans named us Teufel Hunden more commonly known as Devil Dogs.
Guadalcanal 1942 my Grandfather was a Marine officer in that battle,those guys were some serious studs. The Japanese soldiers of WWII were fanatical but not great soldiers and they can kiss my Marine ass!!
TP
BTW I served with the fighting 5th Marines and they were and still are the Marine Corps most decorated combat regiment of all our 229 years of existence.
NcDeuce
01-07-2004, 07:19 PM
54th Mass. @ Fort Wagner, SC
http://www.movieclub.com/reviews/archives/00menofhonor/glory.jpg
http://www.civilwarweb.com/books/movies/glory-screen.jpg
http://images.art.com/images/PRODUCTS/large/10034000/10034531.jpg
Invasion of Normandy, 1863 style.
http://www.schistory.org/displays/CivilWar/morrisisland/Battery_Wagner_bombproofsm.JPG
Vance
01-07-2004, 07:20 PM
Wasn't that the all black division portrayed in the movie Glory?
California Joe
01-07-2004, 07:21 PM
54th Regiment. Yup.
Vance
01-07-2004, 07:22 PM
Very good movie.
Royal
01-08-2004, 07:52 AM
1.-Scots Guards : Falkland Islands, they won at night and at the point of the bayonet, the battle for Mount Tumbledown.Bayonet fighting in the 80's, one of the last ( if not the last ) battles won that way.
2.-Coldstream Guards: The oldest unit in the british army .Messing around for a very long time Nulli secundus.
Mt. Tumbledown, Mt. Harriet and Two Sisters were all night assaults and bayonets were used in all three actions. Bayonets were also used in the capture of Basrah by the Black Watch last summer, as well as in smaller operations such as Op James.
The oldest unit in the British Army is the 1st of Foot, the Royal Scots.
scoone
01-08-2004, 02:11 PM
Ok , didn't know about the bayonet issue in iraq.
What about the Grenadier guards ?
Which are your favourite ones?
StarvingStudent47
01-10-2004, 04:36 AM
Wasn't that the all black division portrayed in the movie Glory?
And it was very aptly named, because the film was effing glorious.
James
01-10-2004, 03:51 PM
U.S. Marines 5th and 6th regiments Battle of Belleau Woods,WW1. This is where the germans named us Teufel Hunden more commonly known as Devil Dogs.
Guadalcanal 1942 my Grandfather was a Marine officer in that battle,those guys were some serious studs. The Japanese soldiers of WWII were fanatical but not great soldiers and they can kiss my Marine ass!!
TP
If anyone ever has a chance to visit Belleau Wood, do it. The Marines that attacked the woods had to walk across several hundred yards of open wheatfield while being engaged by numerous German machine guns and riflemen. By the time the battle ended, the Marines had suffered more than 50% casualties. Less than a month later, the 4th Marine Brigade went into action at Soissons, where they suffered heavy casualties, all in a couple of days. They went on to fight at St. Mihiel in September 1918, Blanc Mont in October 1918, and some of their units crossed the Meuse River on the evening of November 10/11, 1918. When the war ended, they were surprised - they were preparing to cross the river in force and drive the enemy back.
The United States was only involved in combat during World War One for about six months. The first real action the Marines were involved in was at Belleau Wood, in June 1918. By the time the war ended, the unit had suffered about 150% casualties. They always attacked, and they never lost a fight.
perdurabo
01-10-2004, 04:09 PM
I would say Lisowszczycy or Husaria but they don't fit in time frames :(
Gauntlet
01-12-2004, 07:26 AM
These guys went to every island in WWII. The Japanese were numerous and motivated like Hell's train. But the Marines landed on the beaches and while under a blanket of machine guns, artillery, and grenades... they moved on.
Iwo Jima really showed the courage of the Marines, they dove on grenades and ran through minefields, they took what it takes.
One Marine was charged by a Japanese Officer with a sword. While the sword was brought down upon the soldier, he grabed the blade and with a blooding hand, took that sword and stabbed the Jap Officer.
There are countless stories of bravery with the USMC but in reality all soldiers are tough (even the French :roll: ).
Thorpe
01-13-2004, 06:12 AM
Excuse my spelling on this one.
1st The Chindits operating in Burma in WW2
2nd The SAS during ever conflict they have participated in.
3rd US Marines during WW2 running up beachs in the face of Japanese machine gun fire
NcDeuce
01-13-2004, 04:00 PM
Wasn't that the all black division portrayed in the movie Glory?
And it was very aptly named, because the film was effing glorious.
Wasn't Malarkey (Band of Brothers) from Eugene, OR?
NcDeuce
01-13-2004, 04:01 PM
British Paratroopers during Market Garden
Allied paratroopers were the shizit in Holland...
It's that damned British armor that f*cked up Market Garden.
Gauntlet
01-13-2004, 05:40 PM
British Paratroopers during Market Garden
Allied paratroopers were the shizit in Holland...
It's that damned British armor that f*cked up Market Garden.
I saw the movie "A Bridge Too Far". Those British Soldiers in the building over looking the bridge were called the "Red Devils". These me would run into smoke when theres a machine gun blazin. That would take guts.
Capt. Canada
01-14-2004, 08:25 PM
ok I apoligise if this has been stated already, I was scrolling rather fast. What about the 1st Special Service force - The Devils Brigade :|
sethen
01-18-2004, 04:39 AM
I would vote for the South Carolina Militia During the revolution. I have read Forewards and Intros to books on the Special Forces and they all trace SF back to S.C. militia and Francis Marion. These guys were hard core Indian fighters. Whats most suprising is that it was multi racial adn atht no other American Military Units were like that untill the 1950's. We are talking about 1770-1780's so this was a unique group of fighters.
California Joe
01-18-2004, 09:09 AM
I would vote for the South Carolina Militia During the revolution. I have read Forewards and Intros to books on the Special Forces and they all trace SF back to S.C. militia and Francis Marion. These guys were hard core Indian fighters. Whats most suprising is that it was multi racial adn atht no other American Military Units were like that untill the 1950's. We are talking about 1770-1780's so this was a unique group of fighters.
Robert Roger's Rangers predated them. Just sayin.....
I would vote for the South Carolina Militia During the revolution. I have read Forewards and Intros to books on the Special Forces and they all trace SF back to S.C. militia and Francis Marion. These guys were hard core Indian fighters. Whats most suprising is that it was multi racial adn atht no other American Military Units were like that untill the 1950's. We are talking about 1770-1780's so this was a unique group of fighters.
Actually, may be it was an exception in USA armed forces, but in America continent was rather frequent, I don´t mean all races had the same rights, but it´s a fact in spanish american provinces there were local militias with both white, indians, black and mixed people, and mixed people usually weren´t born as and "accident", interracial marriages were tolerated even they were promoted in many cases at the height of the late XVIII century. In the case of USA Revolution, I´m afraid is badly know the role played by spanish forces and supplies in powder, ammunition of every kind, uniforms, cash in gold currency, and a long etc.
Regarding the combatants, the war in what today is USA soil was held mainly by the strike force created by the governor of Nueva Orelans, Bernardo Gálvez, although the revolution war actually was a global war involving both the 13 colonies, GBritain, France and Spain with battles in the Mediterranean sea, all the Atlantic Ocean and all America, North and South, it wasn´t a local war in the east coast of USA. The figure of Bernardo Gálvez deserves a good study about him and being more reknown in USA. He was a tipical militar of the enlightment century, although he was of high class, he was a good student and had his baptism of fire very young in North Africa, risking his life without privileges, asecending because of his merits. The true interracial force in American revolution was built by Bernardo Gálvez, and it was really succesful, that force was filled with spanish from peninsula of regular infantry and from américa(the creoles) that had usually indians and spanish parents(the future mexicans), frenchs, indians, a big group of cubans and a group of american revolutionaries, true yankees, that descended the Mississippi to join that force in New Orleans, it´s said many of them were from Kentucky. The Gálvez column was very small at first and his first goal was gaining all control of Mississippi valley, capturing the british forts up along the river in fast atacks with light forces, being the most important ones Baton Rouge and Natchez, thus he could supply rebels safety throught the river. After that, he pulled to the east, along the Mexico Gulf coast, towards Mobile and Pensacola, and so he expelled all british forces of mexican gulf, because he controlled the continental shore and the gate to the gulf, that was Cuba being the island the main spanish base in west Atlantic, and a rich and well populated island too, many traders could send supplies from Cuba to rebels forces, and it was a safe spanish rearguard for both Gálvez column and reinforcements since the peninsula. Gálvez was a great leader in the battlefield, but the column he built was a skillful, bold and very well trained force, which could do long and fast walks, many times they surprised british soldiers who thought Gálvez´s soldiers still were very far from them, and I think this is more significant if we look at the different origins of his soldiers.
Spearin
01-18-2004, 08:30 PM
Mad Mitch and his bloaks at Aden.
(Can anyone besides Argyll tell me who I'm referring to? :P)
Colonel Colin "Mad Mitch" Mitchell. I don't know much about him, it's just that my old boss named his son Mitchell after having read "Having been a soldier"....
Burncycle
01-19-2004, 08:15 PM
442nd Regimental Combat Team
Royal
01-20-2004, 02:41 AM
Colonel Colin "Mad Mitch" Mitchell. I don't know much about him, it's just that my old boss named his son Mitchell after having read "Having been a soldier"....
Lieutenant Colonel Colin "Mad Mitch" Mitchell, Commanding Officer of the 1st Battalion the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders when they retook the Crater in Aden in the summer of 1967.
Mitchell's subsequant lobbying of the press saved the Battalion from disbandment or amalgamation in one of the many rounds defence cuts we've suffered. He retired as a Lieutenant Colonel and became an MP.
Spearin
01-20-2004, 10:39 PM
Royal gets a cookie :D Hope it doesn't get crushed in the Air Mail :|
Sleeping Sun
01-21-2004, 11:17 AM
The finnish army during the Winter War against the Soviet union from November 30th 1939 to March 13th 1940 when Stalin decided to come and free us from I don't know what. When compered to the massive red army it was almost non-existing. Still they we were able to prevent the russians from invading our country. The war lasted for 105 days and during those 105 days of glory 25 000 finnish soldiers lost their lives in the fight for their fatherland. The soviets lost 1 000 000 men out of their 1 500 000 man invading force. After the war a russian general is known to have said "We gained 22 000 square miles of land. Just enough to bury our dead."
Thanks to those men and women I am here today living in this model of democracy. Thanks to these men and women Finland has been an independent country for over 80 years and didn't end up to be a part of the Soviet Union like so many other countries after the WWII.
War does not determine who is right, but who is remaining ~an old finnish proverb
Colonel Colin "Mad Mitch" Mitchell. I don't know much about him, it's just that my old boss named his son Mitchell after having read "Having been a soldier"....
Lieutenant Colonel Colin "Mad Mitch" Mitchell, Commanding Officer of the 1st Battalion the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders when they retook the Crater in Aden in the summer of 1967.
Mitchell's subsequant lobbying of the press saved the Battalion from disbandment or amalgamation in one of the many rounds defence cuts we've suffered. He retired as a Lieutenant Colonel and became an MP.
Well, it's not very often I'm right, but I'm wrong again.
sethen
01-24-2004, 05:56 AM
I would vote for the South Carolina Militia During the revolution. I have read Forewards and Intros to books on the Special Forces and they all trace SF back to S.C. militia and Francis Marion. These guys were hard core Indian fighters. Whats most suprising is that it was multi racial adn atht no other American Military Units were like that untill the 1950's. We are talking about 1770-1780's so this was a unique group of fighters.
Actually, may be it was an exception in USA armed forces, but in America continent was rather frequent, I don´t mean all races had the same rights, but it´s a fact in spanish american provinces there were local militias with both white, indians, black and mixed people, and mixed people usually weren´t born as and "accident", interracial marriages were tolerated even they were promoted in many cases at the height of the late XVIII century. In the case of USA Revolution, I´m afraid is badly know the role played by spanish forces and supplies in powder, ammunition of every kind, uniforms, cash in gold currency, and a long etc.
Regarding the combatants, the war in what today is USA soil was held mainly by the strike force created by the governor of Nueva Orelans, Bernardo Gálvez, although the revolution war actually was a global war involving both the 13 colonies, GBritain, France and Spain with battles in the Mediterranean sea, all the Atlantic Ocean and all America, North and South, it wasn´t a local war in the east coast of USA. The figure of Bernardo Gálvez deserves a good study about him and being more reknown in USA. He was a tipical militar of the enlightment century, although he was of high class, he was a good student and had his baptism of fire very young in North Africa, risking his life without privileges, asecending because of his merits. The true interracial force in American revolution was built by Bernardo Gálvez, and it was really succesful, that force was filled with spanish from peninsula of regular infantry and from américa(the creoles) that had usually indians and spanish parents(the future mexicans), frenchs, indians, a big group of cubans and a group of american revolutionaries, true yankees, that descended the Mississippi to join that force in New Orleans, it´s said many of them were from Kentucky. The Gálvez column was very small at first and his first goal was gaining all control of Mississippi valley, capturing the british forts up along the river in fast atacks with light forces, being the most important ones Baton Rouge and Natchez, thus he could supply rebels safety throught the river. After that, he pulled to the east, along the Mexico Gulf coast, towards Mobile and Pensacola, and so he expelled all british forces of mexican gulf, because he controlled the continental shore and the gate to the gulf, that was Cuba being the island the main spanish base in west Atlantic, and a rich and well populated island too, many traders could send supplies from Cuba to rebels forces, and it was a safe spanish rearguard for both Gálvez column and reinforcements since the peninsula. Gálvez was a great leader in the battlefield, but the column he built was a skillful, bold and very well trained force, which could do long and fast walks, many times they surprised british soldiers who thought Gálvez´s soldiers still were very far from them, and I think this is more significant if we look at the different origins of his soldiers.
Loco>>> I am aware that the American Revolution was a global effort and that Spain as well as France gave a considerable amount of support to the effort. Without this it wouldn't have been a successful war. I read a book about The Revolution a few years back. Although I forget the title, but it agrees with you assertions. So, I think you are right! :)
As for the War in the southeast and its racial composition, I think that it was largely due to manpower issues that led to the multi-racial character of the militias. True whites were (and still are) an extreme minority in the area I hale from. So, allowing mixed raced soldiers was neccesary. I myself am of mixed ancestry. (Scotch-Irish/Waccamaw Indian/Jewish/English) So I am quite similar to the Mexicans you spoke of in that regard. :D
Atlantic Friend
10-04-2005, 09:17 AM
Me, I'd nominate every units from WW1 that fought 4 years of trench warfare. Going through what they suffered is beyond normal human resilience to me. And I don't give a damn whose side they fought it, they all went through nine sorts of hell and came out fighting.
Freibier
10-04-2005, 09:44 AM
Gotta be some german or russian units.
Compared to the sheer amount of death and destruction on the eastern front, everything else seems like a walk in the park - no other armies fought at such a large scale.
hughdotoh
10-04-2005, 10:44 AM
I'm for:
The Jeni Ceri;
Philippine Scouts (Uncle Sam's equivalent of Gurkhas);
THE Gurkhas;
The Takasago Raiders;
and
The Montagnards, Hmong included.
Backwoodshunter
10-04-2005, 01:14 PM
SOG, and Recon men of the Vietnam war, The brave boys at rourkes drift, All the commando operators during WW2, Spartans at thermopolaye(sp)
goldman
10-04-2005, 01:34 PM
The only american unit to achive over 100% casualty rate was sog, for every man SOG lost they claimed 200 enemy dead.
Give me the Gurkha's any day. Great guys, always cheerful an don't know what defeat is.
Laconian
10-04-2005, 01:58 PM
There is no such thing as a tough unit. Men are tough. Standards of a units training may be high or difficult, but tough men make the unit history. If you went to war, you are in a tough unit. I don't care if you are in the water reclamation bn or you are in the lead landing craft heading in to Omaha Beach.
Hundreds (maybe even thousands) of units over the 300 year span have distinguished themselves. What sized units? Army level? Division level? Reg't level? The US 28th Infantry Division that fought the Battle of the Hurtgen Forest is less tough than the 101st at Bastogne? Are either of those units tougher than the US 36th ID slugging it out in Italy? Why? Suppose you have a horrible Reg't, Bde, Bn, Co, Plt Cdr, does that mean that the squad isn't tough?
Who's biggest/baddest/best/coolest? It's all just d*#k measuring.
KEEPER0311
10-04-2005, 01:59 PM
I's say the various army, navy and marine corp units that fought through out the pacific during the opening days of America's involvement in WW2.
Backwoodshunter
10-04-2005, 09:01 PM
Reading the exploits of the SOG men in John PLasters books just make me realize the great men that served this nation in one of its most "disrespectful/Rebelious" modern times. The conditions and odds they fought against was amazing. How they sometimes hadd to lay in one place for almost a week straight in the pooring rain not able to move is one that strikes me as one of hardships they delt with. Muhc respect for such a crazy group of volunteers
goldman
10-04-2005, 09:47 PM
Reading the exploits of the SOG men in John PLasters books just make me realize the great men that served this nation in one of its most "disrespectful/Rebelious" modern times. The conditions and odds they fought against was amazing. How they sometimes hadd to lay in one place for almost a week straight in the pooring rain not able to move is one that strikes me as one of hardships they delt with. Muhc respect for such a crazy group of volunteers
Yup SOG members were tough bunch, much respect to them :hug:
ogukuo72
10-05-2005, 12:11 AM
All the famous ones have been taken. Here are some more obscure units:
The 57th Regiment of Foot at the Battle of Albuhera (May 1811)
The term "Die-Hard" was coined in the smoke of war during the Battle of Albuhera, fought on 16th May 1811 which was the bloodiest battle of the Peninsula War.
At this battle the 57th were out numbered four to one. The Commanding Officer of the 57th, Colonel Inglis, took his position in front of his "Fighting Villains", a term used by him when referring to his regiment and a term used by the illustrious Picton. When the fighting was at its heaviest he was struck down by a charge of grape shot in his neck and left breast. He refused to be carried to the rear for treatment, but lay in front of his men calling on them to hold their position and when the fight reached its fiercest cried, "Die hard the 57th, die hard!", and die hard they did. The casualties were 420 out of the 570 men in the ranks and 20 out of the 30 officers. Marshal Beresford wrote in his dispatch, "our dead, particularly the 57th Regiment, were lying as they fought in the ranks, every wound in front".
Even after this savage fight and such appalling casualties, the regiment were eager to advance with the remainder but Beresford called out, "Stop, stop the 57th, it would be a sin to let them go on!"
Later when the battlefield was viewed it was seen that the dead of the 57th were lying like a pack of cards that had toppled over.
Oman, the historian, said of the honour "Albuhera" "this, the most honourable of all Peninsular Blazons on a regimental flag......", but it was the soldiers of Wellington's army themselves that dubbed the regiment the "Diehards" after the exhortation of their Commanding Officer. This indeed is a compliment as the British soldier is wary when giving praise to fighting men.
Last 300 years? Man, there would be too many to name.
Taekwondo
10-05-2005, 08:24 AM
Well, name the Finnish cavarly Hakkapeliittas under Swedish flags, and all the other Finnish troops in the 30-years war, like the Pori and Savo Regiments; some north-borne peasants with bad training and equipment beating down Europe's most experienced mercenaries. For years. And turning the tide of the war ;)
edit: oh, yeah, they're older than 300 years. The Savo Regiment became Savo's Brigade some decades back, it closes in a few years, the Pori's Brigade will keep going strong.
This is my share.
204. vukovarska brigada. - defenders of Croatian town Vukovar. Vukovar is Croatian town on border with Serbia. Of 4.5 months of fighting for it, it was 2 months surrounded.
Serbs had 9 armoured brigades attacking, amongst them their elite armoured guard division, Infantry brigades, chetniks, paramilitaries,all the altillery you can imagine, planes, river flotila(river is border).Serbs destroyed town completely, with shelling, but they could not enter the town up until defenders (who had only light infantry weapons, light (simillar to rpg but worse)antitank granade launchers, 4 76mm guns, and 2 105 mm howicers(sp) and some mortairs..) lost the amo.
Defenders of Vukovar are for me hends down, the best (urban) fighters in the whole world.
Defenders of willage Bogdanovci near Vukovar 40 days surrounded fighting with atleast two serb armoured brigades.
Any mobile guarde brigade of Croatian army - they carried the war, and liberation of Croatia and part of Bosnia.
Defenders of surrounded town Dubrovnik, serbs had all dominate hils except one, they controled the sea with navy, but they could not enter the town.
110th, and 111th HVO brigades, defenders of Usora and Zepce enclave in BiH.
5th corps of BiH army surrounded with Serbs through whole war in Bosnia.
Sarajevo and Gorazde defenders, units of BiH army ,surrounded with Serbs holding dominate hils, much, much stronger in arms,
These last few are in no particular order.
Oh, yes, please refrein yourself of any flame comments, cos I will not respond, i don't want another serb-croat-bosnian flame war.
Instead post the units that you think were best in your country.
Thanks.
Cygnus
10-05-2005, 08:08 PM
Gurkas any time...
Capital Division of South Korea
Philippine Scouts during WW2
Serbian rebels in First Serbian uprising. Won two battles against Turks in which they were outnumbered arrount 10-1. Defenders of belgrade in 1915. Cetniks at Kumanovo. Cetniks at Manjaca in WWII. 7th. Brigade from Kupres, JSO etc. These are just Serbian. 300 years is kinda long war, and it would pain in the ass to list all of them, from all countries!
goldman
10-05-2005, 09:07 PM
This is my share.
204. vukovarska brigada. - defenders of Croatian town Vukovar. Vukovar is Croatian town on border with Serbia. Of 4.5 months of fighting for it, it was 2 months surrounded.
Serbs had 9 armoured brigades attacking, amongst them their elite armoured guard division, Infantry brigades, chetniks, paramilitaries,all the altillery you can imagine, planes, river flotila(river is border).Serbs destroyed town completely, with shelling, but they could not enter the town up until defenders (who had only light infantry weapons, light (simillar to rpg but worse)antitank granade launchers, 4 76mm guns, and 2 105 mm howicers(sp) and some mortairs..) lost the amo.
Defenders of Vukovar are for me hends down, the best (urban) fighters in the whole world.
Defenders of willage Bogdanovci near Vukovar 40 days surrounded fighting with atleast two serb armoured brigades.
Any mobile guarde brigade of Croatian army - they carried the war, and liberation of Croatia and part of Bosnia.
Defenders of surrounded town Dubrovnik, serbs had all dominate hils except one, they controled the sea with navy, but they could not enter the town.
110th, and 111th HVO brigades, defenders of Usora and Zepce enclave in BiH.
5th corps of BiH army surrounded with Serbs through whole war in Bosnia.
Sarajevo and Gorazde defenders, units of BiH army ,surrounded with Serbs holding dominate hils, much, much stronger ina arms,
These last few are in no particular order.
Oh, yes, please refrein yourself of any flame comments, cos I will not respond, i don't want another serb-croat-bosnian flame war.
Instead post the units that you think were best in your country.
Thanks.
Family member of mine fought in Vukovar, he was a tank driver. Well when he came back let's just say in 10 years he went through two divorces. The serbian paramilitary were just brutal, he was forced to drive over 4 HVO wounded soldiers.
ogukuo72
10-06-2005, 03:29 AM
Wake Detachment of the 1st Defence Battalion and VFM-211
Wake Island (Dec 1941)
First landing attempt
Early on the morning of December 11, the garrison, with the support of the four remaining Wildcats, repulsed the first Japanese landing attempt by the South Seas Force, which included the light cruisers Yubari, Tenryu, and Tatsuta; the destroyers Yayoi, Mutski, Kisaragi, Hayate, Oite, and Asanagi; two destroyer transports (the P-32 and P-33), and two troop transport ships containing 450 Japanese marines. The U.S. Marines fired at the invasion fleet with their six 5 inch (127 mm) coastal artillery guns, sinking the Hayate and damaging most of the other ships. The four Wildcats also succeeded in sinking another destroyer, the Kisaragi. Hayate was the first Japanese naval ship sunk during World War II. The Japanese force withdrew before landing. This was the first Japanese defeat of the war. The first battle of Wake Island also marked the only occasion in all of World War II when an amphibious assault was defeated by shore-based guns. After the defeat, when asked if he needed anything, the US commander said "Send more Japs".
But the continuing siege and frequent Japanese air attacks on the Wake garrison continued, without resupply for the Americans. The initial resistance offered by the garrison prompted the Japanese Navy to detach two aircraft carriers (Soryu and Hiryu) from the force which attacked Pearl Harbor to support the second landing attempt. The US mounted an unsuccessful relief attempt based around the fleet carriers Saratoga and Lexington plus escorts. The carrier forces did not spot each other so no naval battle took place.
Second landing and American surrender
The second Japanese invasion force, on December 23, composed most of the same ships from the first attempt with some new additions, plus 1,500 Japanese marines. The landings begain at 02:35 hours where, after a preliminary bombardment, the destroyer transports P-32 and P-33 were beached and burned in their attempts to land the invasion force. After a full night and morning of fighting, the Wake garrison surrendered to the Japanese by mid-afternoon.
The U.S. Marines lost only 49 killed during the entire 15-day siege while three U.S. Navy personnel and at least 70 civilians were killed. The Japanese losses were recorded at between 700 to 900 killed with at least 1,000 more wounded, in addition to the two destroyers lost in the first invasion attempt, as well as at least 20 land-based and carrier aircraft. The Japanese captured all of men remaining on the island, of whom the majority were civilian contractors employed with Morrison-Knudsen Company.
Captain Henry T. Elrod, one of the pilots from VMF-211, was awarded the United States Medal of Honor posthumously for his action on the Island during the Japanese landings on the 23rd for shooting down two Japanese Zero fighters. A special military decoration, the Wake Island Device was also created to honor those who had fought in the defense of the island.
Holstein
10-06-2005, 01:30 PM
French Foreign Legion in the battle of Camerone.
The Savolax brigade during the war between Sweden/Finland and Russia
dangerdan87
10-06-2005, 01:35 PM
The MARINES! Period
RGRBOX
10-06-2005, 01:38 PM
Wasnt the 82nd at Bastonge too? y does 101 get all the fame
The 82d was in the AO of Bastogne, but were smart enough not to get surounded... p-) The 505th fought a great battle against units of a German SS Panzer Div. at a place called Greize... I think that's the name, there's a great museum there, I've visited twice... they have a King Tiger there...
plodey
10-07-2005, 11:01 PM
another vote for the Gurkhas.
Tielir999
10-08-2005, 12:25 AM
Marines
Aerosoul
10-08-2005, 12:47 AM
war and the way it is fought has changed so ****ing much in the last 300 years....how can you have that time frame to say who is the toughest.
Miles.
10-08-2005, 01:56 PM
Marines at Iwo Jima. Defenders of the Alamo. Rangers at Omaha Beach and Point Du Hoc. Canadians at Juno Beach. 101st at Bastogne. Marines at Wake Island. Task Force Ranger in Somalia. Russians at Stalingrad. (Germans put up a hell of a fight too.) And last but not least, the 1st Calvary at the Ia Drang Valley.
Agreed!
Also, Army of Northern Virginia.
Remember, the North had to burn and rape the South to win. War crimes perpetrated by two generals: Grant and Sherman. But, they were on the "noble" side of the North, so who cares, right?
Telnyashka
10-08-2005, 02:24 PM
300 years is too broad...
I would have to stay the Spetsnaz involved in Beslan, rushing in there, most not even having time to grab body armour, and shielding the hostages with their own bodies to save them is certainly an amazing act of bravery.
As well, the Russian soldier who was made into a Saint. I believe his squad was captured and they were allowed to live if they converted to Islam, everyone of his friends converted except him and he got killed...even though I don't believe in religion, because he was willing to die for his beliefs and even have a chance out, is quite amazing.
Roy Batty
10-08-2005, 02:50 PM
Canadians at the Medac Pocket
Canadians at the Medac Pocket
Medac Pocket case study:
Ordre de Bataille - Battle Plan
http://www.nsf-journal.hr/issues/v3_n3-4/07.htm
Bataille de Medak - The Medak Pocket Operation
http://www.nsf-journal.hr/issues/v3_n3-4/08.htm
The Action’s Croatian Interpretation - Croatian Sources
http://www.nsf-journal.hr/issues/v3_n3-4/09.htm
Canadian Interpretation - Canadian Sources
http://www.nsf-journal.hr/issues/v3_n3-4/10.htm
Medak Pocket - Serbian Interpretation
http://www.nsf-journal.hr/issues/v3_n3-4/11.htm
Footnotes ANNEX - maps, photographs, graphs
http://www.nsf-journal.hr/issues/v3_n3-4/12.htm
Roy Batty
10-08-2005, 04:29 PM
Not a bad resource but unfortunatly it's Croation and so is liable to be biased ( as a Canadian one would be as well ). My interpretation comes from soldiers I serve with who were on the ground during the engagment. Some of those resevists equated themselfs extremely well for part time soldiers.
Johnny_H02
10-10-2005, 12:26 AM
Im not going to nominate one unit, three units, rather just compile a list.
Three hundred years? and everything is WWII lol.
Here we go
starting in the 1700's
Rogers Rangers
Gorems Rangers
42nd Regiment of Foot (Black Watch)
48th Regiment of Foot (Webb’s)
60th Regiment of Foot (Royal American)
The Kings Rangers
( im sorry I dont know any of the french units of the seven years war, and my War of indipendance knowelege is basic at best, so they are mostly all from the seven years war)
1800's
Les Volitguers Canadiens ( 1812 )
Napoleon's Imperial Guard
Scots Greys
Coldstream Guards
Scots Guards
Black watch
Gordon Highlanders
Any of the Cavelry Units of the Light Brigade that made that fatefull charge at Sevastipol
20th Maine Volunteer Infantry Regiment ( under the command of Joshua Chamberlain)
54th Massachusettes Regiment ( under the command of Robert Gould Shaw)
The Irish Brigade
The Army of Virginia under General Robert E Lee
many of the british regiments already listed fought in Crimea
the 17th and 21st Lancers
24th Regiment of Foot * south whales boarderers However this title was not what the regiment was known by for the battles in Zululand in 1879, they were infact "24th (the 2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot"
The Zulu tribes of South Africa, from Shaka Zulu through till king Catschewaou ( spelled horribly wrong )
The Boer Kommandos that apposed the british empire
The Australian, British and Canadian soldiers of the boer war
The Royal Canadian Regiment for thier charge at Paaderburg
1900's
Allot of the british regiments will remain the same
The British, German, French, Canadian, French, Turkish, American, and countless others that slogged it out between 1914-1918 in mankinds first truely Modern war
Royal Canadian Regiment
Princess Patricias Canadian Light Infantry
The Royal 22'nd Vent- Deux ( Van-Doos )
The ANZAC's
USMC
the 1st infantry Div ( the big red one )
The Allies of WWII to name a few
The USMC for thier campiegn in the pacific
The Royal Airforce for Standing up against the Luftwaffe in the summer of 1940 with a handfull of foriegn volenteers against the same luftwaffe that helped overthrow Europe
The Crews of Uboots, Destroyers, Battleships of the german navy of both WWI and II
the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Canadian Infantry divisions that fought in Dieppe, Italy, Normandy, Sheldt Estuary through to holland
the American infantry divisions that fought through Europe and the pacific as well as the US, Canadian, Free French, Australian, and British Royal navies that won the battle on the seas enabling our troops to fight the enemy on thier ground.
the 101st, 82nd and 317th airborne, as well as the 1st and 2nd airborne divisions , les Regiments De Chaudier, the Desert Rats, the the 1st infantry Div ( the big red one ), Princess Patricias Canadian Light infantry, Royal Canadian Regiment, Royal Regiment of Canada, The black watch, SAS, Royal Marine Commandos, Royal Navy Commandos.
The Green Devils
The German Fallschirmjagers that hit hte fortress Eben Emael, and continued to fight throughout the war untill the bitter end
There were some SS units that were not cruel baby eaters like the
Totenkoph, despite the name "Der Furher Div" was a unit born and bred from Austria which fought in the eastern front untill anniliated, the countless Panzer divisions and Russian Guard and rifle regiments that fought on the eastern front
The Imperial Japenese Navy for thier campiegn in the pacific ocean.
The Israeli Airforce and Army which defeated multiple nations simultaniously during the 7day war.
and in korea? the forgotten war
The Princess Patricias Canadian Light infantry stand out in my mind for thier Defense of Kap'Young
The USMC and the US army under General Macarthur
The Australians and British soldiers who fought in Koreas horrible Quagmire.
Vietnam
The North Vietnamese army for thier tet offensive
The 101st airborne and 82nd airborne
The American Air Cav
American regular infantry grunts that made up the bulk of forces committed to Vietnam
USMC
Green Berets
Navy Seals
The Falklands
The 2nd Parachute division for thier battle at Goose Green
The Royal Marines
The SAS
The list gos on, I could go into the present further into the first and second gulf war, the Intervention at Kosovo and Balkens, troops who are in Afghanistan, I really sort of branched out into general terms for WWI and WWII because it involved so many men? so many units that to simply name one short changes another, sure the 101 and the 82 get all the focus because of authors like Stephen Ambrose, and Film makers like Stephen spielberg. But little known is plenty of regiments have stood against overwhelming numbers against all odds, in the Falaise pocket the North Nova Scotia Highlanders were almost wiped down to the last man, as well as the loyal edmonton regiment, Queens own rifles of Canada, 1st Canadian Parachute battalion all of these units put up just as good a fight as any.
Im sorry if this sort of ran off topic, but i was sort of shocked to see how easy some of you can just Brand certain units "The hardest" simply because you have been blessed enough to see talented filmakers and authors show you thier plight.
Just wanted to say what was on my mind, again sorry for the long post.
catalyst
10-10-2005, 09:15 AM
toughest is very subjective.....
a unit that was rushed into the line at the key moment....mowed down by fire....didnt live to tell the tale....makes me think they are tough mentally gor just getting into the line and trying to hold it....
but a int. unit that is sitting and watching knowing somethign could happen....thats some tough mental stuff aswell....
nothing can be compared....sayign that.....I would give it to the Australian 10 Light Horse Regiment.....all round toughness......mentally they knew they were going to be slaughtered for nothing.....physically cause they got over the trench and RAN...all for nothing....knowingly.....thats hardcore **** for me....
Lokos
10-10-2005, 10:05 PM
This thread is idiotic. Nine out of ten units nominated are simply those that have received a lot of media coverage by virtue of being British/American and having had, at some point, a successful engagement that 'patriots' can look back to and use to show how awesome their respective nation is.
I won't bring up my own candidates. It would be hypocritical.
Lokos
Canadians at the Medac Pocket
The only thing I'm know about the canadians in Bosnia is that they were sent in as reinforcements to Nordbat, but they deemed the situation "too dangerous" and fled. The canucks were replaced by a company from the french foreign legion who not fled.
Lokos
10-11-2005, 03:22 AM
The only thing I'm know about the canadians in Bosnia
That says more about how much you know than about the Canadians.
Lokos
Keep dreaming. That's in fact the only first hand information I have about canadians in Bosnia.
This thread is idiotic. Nine out of ten units nominated are simply those that have received a lot of media coverage by virtue of being British/American and having had, at some point, a successful engagement that 'patriots' can look back to and use to show how awesome their respective nation is.
I won't bring up my own candidates. It would be hypocritical.
Lokos
Right you are.
-=P=-
10-11-2005, 08:00 AM
Yep and not only media coverage, also the version and numbers of the winning party.
Many units, like the Waffen SS units mentioned were really very though especially when there was no real hope to win anymore, but there some completely unknown such as Masoods troops in the Panjir vally, during the 80's. Soviets were controlling all territory around them and raiding them with Spetznas regularly, never managing to capture the valley. The situation there must have been very tough, without air support, regular supply not even the Americans were supporting them like they did with the other Mujaheddins.
In such situations toughness prove itself.
The Spartans at Thermopylae (don’t fir to the past 300 years limitation), should have been very tough but the sensational results could have only been so if Xerxes was attacking Hellas with a 1000000 man force and that numbers is an completely unrealistic exaggeration and that’s why the number of killed enemies by the Spartans is a huge exaggeration.
A nice example how unbelievable myths can be created if only the winning side is providing the information (or in this case, if we take our information from a about 2500 years book which tries to tell a story ;) )
U.S. marines.
End of discussion.
Lokos
10-11-2005, 10:11 AM
That's in fact the only first hand information I have about canadians in Bosnia.
Ergo: that goes to show what you know, and not much about the Canadian performance in BiH. Their Medak Pocket showing, in particular, was excellent. Your first-hand sources interest me not in the least, given the far more reliable historiographical evidence available to the contrary of their position.
Lokos
bigjeff
10-11-2005, 11:22 AM
Gurkha...i suppose.
welshmann
10-11-2005, 11:48 AM
go for the same as Argyll said a few pages back..the 24th of foot....ie the film zulu
moonmonkey
10-11-2005, 11:49 AM
Id go for Brit para's and marines
Ergo: that goes to show what you know, and not much about the Canadian performance in BiH. Their Medak Pocket showing, in particular, was excellent. Your first-hand sources interest me not in the least, given the far more reliable historiographical evidence available to the contrary of their position.
You are the indesputable moran as ever.
The dutch and the candians had the worst rep in Bosnia in terms of soldiership. However your view as a serb view it I'm not interested in.
The fact is that the candians sent to reinforce Nordbat (swedes and danes) in Vares bugged out because it was too dangerous and they were replaced by a company from FFL. Feel free to check it up.
Thor, where are you getting this information from.
Ea$y-8
10-11-2005, 10:43 PM
Dietrich and Piper both failed miserably against American and British forces during the Battle of the Bulge.
Really?
VII. The Ardennes campaign
After breaking through the encirclement at Falaise, the Leibstandarte crossed the Seine near Elbeuf and went through Marle, Montcornet, S of Maubeuge, N of Philippeville, Fleurus and into Belgium. They encountered British troops in each of these places.
When they arrived in Belgium, this coincided with the occupation of the Allies, and they had to bash through their lines again. Large groups broke through at Jodoigne, Tirlemont, Hasselt and Diest, into the area Bree-Neerpelt-Lommel Mol. On 4 September 1944 they recieved orders to withdraw to Germany, area of Bitburg.
SS-Obersturmführer Rink reports the following:
"And we, who had come depleted and exhausted from the inferno of Caen, through the breakout from the pocket of Falaise, through the nerve wracking retreat across France and partizan plagued Belgium, we had gathered our strenght and rebuilt our confidence."
Leibstandarte's daughter unit, the Hitlerjugend suffered even more from the retreat through Belgium. Kurt Meyer, that gallant SS officer, was captured by a Belgian farmer and his son who carried an old hunting rifle, and Hans Waldmüller (I./SS-Pz.Reg. 25, later Kampfgruppe Waldmüller, Ritterkreuz 27 August) was tricked into an ambush, killed and horribly mutilated by Belgian partizans on 8 september. He finds rest at the Heroes' cemetary in Düren.
With the Allies halted north by II. SS-Panzerkorps and south by a determined defence from 11. Panzerdivision and several Volksgrenadier divisions, Hitler felt that is was time for a large offensive again. This was not without ground. The Allies would pick up momentum again as soon as their supply lines were brought up, and if he could wound them bad enough before that, he would have enough time and resources to deal with the Russians.
Before the Leibstandarte would participate in the last great offense, they were raced to help the bombed population of Düren (see Waldmüller). The city had just suffered from an extensive American bombing raid, there were dead women and children everywhere. Jochen Peiper reported:
"We had to scrape them off the walls, it was that bad! I could have castrated the swine who did that to those people with a blunt piece of glass!"
By now the Leibstandarte wasn't it former self anymore, many recruits with hardly any training were to fill the gaps and munition and fuel were scarce. But the core of the Leibstandarte was made up of elite veterans who quickly passed on their knowledge to the younger ones. LAH was divided into 4 Kampfgruppen for the December 16 attack:
- SS-Kampfgruppe Peiper (SS-Obersturmbannführer Jochen Peiper)
- I./SS-Panzerregiment 1 (gemischt; 72 Panthers and IVH's, Werner Poetschke, attached was 9.(Pi.)/SS-Pz.Reg. 1 and 10.Kp.SS-Panzerflak, 3 Wirbelwind)
- s.SS-Panzerabteilung 501 ( 45 Königstiger, SS-Sturmbannführer Hein von Westernhagen)
- III./SS-Panzergrenadierregiment 2 (5 Kp., 5.Kp. - SP 150mm, SS-Sturmbannführer Jupp Diefenthal)
- II./SS-Panzerartillerieregiment 1 (geschleppt)
- Luftwaffe Flaksturmabteilung 84 (20mm, 37mm)
- SS-Kampfgruppe Sandig
- SS-Panzergrenadierregiment 2
- SS-Kampfgruppe Hansen
- SS-Panzergrenadierregiment 1
- SS-Panzerjägerabteilung (21 Jagdpanzer IV, 11 75mm PaK)
- Artillerieabteilung (105mm, geschleppt)
- 24 Nebelwerfers
- SS-Kampfgruppe Knittel
- SS-Aufklärungsabteilung 1
- 1 Batterie 105mm (geschleppt)
- 1 Kompanie SS-Panzerpioniere
Kampfgruppe Peiper (4800 men, 600 vehicles including some 150 SPW's) was given Rollbahn (highway) D, with Kamfgruppe Sandig following closely. Rollbahn E was followed by Kampfgruppe Hanssen, with Kampfgruppe Knittel behind him. Knittel wasn't bound to a Rollbahn, he had freedom of movement.
SS-Panzerregiment 1 is placed on alert by the end of nov. 44, regio of Stadtkyll, 13 km E of the Belgian border. Vehicles are carefully camouflaged.
14 december: Jochen Peiper, Rudi Sandig, Max Hansen, Gustave Knittel and Otto Skorzeny attend a meeting at Mohnke’s HK at Tondorf.
15 december : During the night, assault forces are placed into position.
16 december: 05:15 : order n°10697/44 (signed by v. Rundstedt) gives the order to attack, orders are given through the radio.
05:35 : assault commences, some 620 artillery pieces, 32.Gr.Werf. open up on the American lines.
08:00 : SS-Kampfgruppe Peiper is still waiting behind 12. Volksgrenadier, which should have achieved a breakthrought at Losheim and Losheimgraben by 07:00 : Peiper’s tanks are cought in traffic on the Blankenheim-Schnied road.
14:00 : Peiper is at HK of 12. Volksgrenadierdivision (General Engel)
16:30 : Peiper gives order to move out. At Scheid, the Pioniere of 12. VG proved themselves unable to repair the bridge, Peiper’s entire column dashes across an slope next to it, ignore the destroyed bridge.
Composition of Peiper’s Spitze:
SS-Obersturmbannführer Werner Sternebeck (commander), Panther
- SS-Untersturmführer Hans-Jürgen Bahrendt (1.Pz.Kp.), Panther
- SS-Untersturmführer Herbert Junker, SS-Oberscharführer August Wien (5.Pz.Kp), Mk.IVH
- SS-Unterstumführer Karl-Heinz Asmussen, SS-Hauptscharführer August Tonk (6.Pz.Kp.), Mk.IVH
- SS-Scharführer Horst Rempel (8.Pz.Kp.), Mk.IVH
- 2 Schützenpanzerwagen from 9.Pi.Kp./SS-Pz.Reg. 1, SS-Oberscharführer Dörr en SS-Rottenführer Wemmel
- In other terms; 2 Pz.V, 5 Pz.IVH and 2 SPW.
Behind them came Oskar Klingelhöfer’s 6.Pz.Kp., in Mk. IVH.
21:30 : Losheim reached. Korps orders a detour, Peiper is to move to the west of Lanzerath. Fallschirmjägerregiment 9, 3. Fallschirmjägerdivision, reports heavy resistance from the woods near Büllingen. Forward two Pz. IVH drive on German mines when entering Hüllscheid. SS-Obersturmführer Erich Rumpf’s Pioniere clear minefield, but Sternebeck’s Panzer jumps on another mine SE of Merscheidt, he switches to Asmussen’s Panzer. After finding his Kommando-Panther 001 having engine trouble, Jochen Peiper switches to the command SPW of Jupp Diefenthal, commanding Peiper’s old III.Bat.
22:00 : Königstiger of s.SS-Pz.Abt. 501 catch up with the column.
24:00 : SS-Kampfgruppe Peiper reaches Lanzerath, losses amounted to 3 Panzer and 2 SPW. Peiper meets with Oberst Hoffmann (Fallschirmjägerreg. 9) at his HK at Café Palm. In a bad mood, he demands to know why he halted. He said he heard that Battalion reported a strong opposition. Peiper knows it is just gossip, mad at Hoffman, demands a Fallschirmjägerabteilung to be placed under his command. Attack is delayed, Fallschirmjäger do not wish to attack, the Waffen-SS Panzer suffer loss of time, again.
Peiper re-arranges his Spitze: 2 Panther take the lead, followed by a Zug from 10.Kp./SS-Pz.Gren.Reg 2 (SS-Hauptsturmführer Georg Preuss), followed by 2 Flak-Vierlinge (SS-Obersturmführer Vögler).
17 december: 04:00 : assault on the Büllingen woods, II./FJÄ.Reg. 9 (Major Taubert) takes the lead. The Panzer commanders communicate by radio, the Fallschirmjäger lead with white hankerchiefs. No opposition encountered near the woods, Jochen mad about the loss of time. Americans fleeing at the other side of the woods, at Buchholz railway station. The Vierlinge follow the tracks of the Panzer in the snow, are taken under fire by American MG and AT, but suffer no damage, open fire and silence the enemy fire.
04:30 : Peiper’s Spitze rushes Honsfeld, GI’s are taken by surprise, AT guns and halftracks are unmanned, surprise is complete. Around this time, SS-Kampfgruppe Hansen starts entering the offensive.
05:40 : Bulk of the SS-Kampfgruppe rumbles through Honsfeld. The leading 2 Wirbelwinds are taken out by American AT guns. The third Vierlinge opens up and silences the cannons. When they reach the middle of the town, they are taken under fire again from the windows of the surrounding houses. The fire is answered, and soon the Americans surrender. Many dead and wounded on both sides. The Kp.Fhr. for the FlaK units, SS-Obersturmführer Vögler, who was in the first vehicle, was slightly wounded. Panther 232 and 235 are also taken out by AT gunfire when riding through Honsfeld. A Königstiger who rumbled along, carrying Fallschirmjäger, took four hits but destroyed the two firing AT guns without taking any damage itself whatsoever. The Fallschirmjäger pass on captured food, drinks and cigarettes to the passing Königstiger crews.
The bulk of Fallschirmjägerregiment 9 remains at Honsfeld, one Kompanie joins the SS-Kampgruppe. When he drives out of Honsfeld, Jochen realizes he has little fuel left, and the roads to the west of Honsfeld aren’t in a suitable condition. He did not hear any sound around him, so he took the guess that 12. SS-Panzerdivision wasn’t following. Therefore he took Rollbahn C, given to 12. SS, and drove as fast to Büllingen as fast as he could, hoping to capture the fuel depot there.
06:00 : Peiper moves out of Honsfeld, on to Büllingen. 2 km S of the city, 12 spotter planes were destroyed on the ground, a 13th got away.
08:05 : SS-Kampfgrupe Peiper drives into Büllingen, loss of one Pz. IVH outside the city, crew shot down while attempting to leave the vehicle. Sternebeck and Georg Preuss break trough the defence, despite heavy AA and MG fire. After house-to-house fighting, the Americans stop the fight and surrender. They find the Fuel depot on the market, and some US POW’s are made to refuel the Panzer. Preuss is put forward by Peiper for the Ritterkreuz, altough he didn’t like him.
10:00 : The Panzerspizte, rested and refueled, roars out of Büllingen and continues SW towards Möderscheid and Amel, not N towards Elsenborn as the Americans anticipate. Sternebeck did not notice he took the wrong turn, and went N of Büllingen towards Wirtzfeld. When, 1 km outside Büllingen, a Pz. IVH was hit in the tower, killing the commander, he realised he had taken the wrong turn. He detoured, and drove direction Bütgenbach. He ran into American doctors, who offered him the surrender of Fieldhospital 47, but Sternebeck wasn’t interested and drove on. He, his own Pz. IVH together with SS-Hauptscharführer August Tonk’s Pz. IVH and the 2 SPW from 9.Pz.Pio.Kp. linked up with Peiper again at the crossroads NO of Amel, near point 616.
Following Möderscheid, the Spitze continued towards Schoppen. Because of the bad condition of the roads, they advance very slowly. After the capture of a US Lt.Colonel just outside Thirimont, Jochen learns that General Timberlake had set up the HQ of the 49th AA-Art. at Ligneuville, and orders his Panzerspitze to push on hard. This radio-message is recieved by Sternebeck, who is located at the Baugnez crossroads.
11:00 : The Kampfgruppe drives through Thirimont. 10.Kp./SS-Pz.Gren.Reg. 2, with Peiper right behind them, drives on to Ligneuville through very difficult terrain, several detours have to be be taken.
13:00 : Panzerspitze (Sternebeck) reaches Ligneuville. They find no American units in the centre of the town, so they halt in front of the bridge over the Ambléve. Peiper ordered to seize the brigde intact. The Pioniere crawl forwards and check the bridge for explosives. A machinegun opens up, several men get wounded. The enemy machineguns are silenced. The Americans left in such a hurry, that the SS men found their meals at the Hotel Moulin still on table, the cigarettes still smoking and the glasses half-empty. Within ten minutes, the bulk of Peiper’s forces will arive. The Spitze witnesses how a battalion of US Sherman tanks (Captain Green), from 9th Armoured Division, prepares itself for combat outside the town.
13:10 : SS-Kampfgruppe arrives at Lignueville, fierce combat breaks out between the German and American tanks. The Shermans are all knocked out, and Green was captured. Preuß’ 10.Kp. entered combat with US Armoured battalion 14. Arndt Fisher remembers how
“My Panther arrived at Ligneuville ten minutes after the Panzerspitze, and was knocked out there from behind, it was an ambush. Peiper gave us cover fire when we left our tank from his SPW, we were taken under fire by small arms. I was terribly burned, we had spilled oil on our uniforms at Büllingen. Peiper, who give me first aid, was so irritated that he put on the bandage backwards.”
A Schützenpanzerwagen from 11.(gep.)Kp. was also taken out. Peiper wanted to destroy the Sherman A3 with a Panzerfaust, but a soldier from 11.Kp. beat him to it.
17:00 : SS-Kampfgruppe Peiper continues W, through Pont, ******** et Lodomez towards Stavelot and spends the night at Vaulx-Richard. Wilhelm Monhke, divisional commander of the Leibstandarte, set up his HK at Ligneuville (Hotel Moulin), and Peiper stays at Ligneuville to discuss the situation with him. SS-Sturmbannführer Werner Pötschke takes over command in the meantime.
3 Mk.IVH and 3 Mk.V had been knocked out sofar. 4 IVH and 8 V were having technical difficulties, along with several VIB.
Mrs. Willems de Spa comments:
“In december ’44, I lived in Ligneuville with my brother,in the bakery, right across the post officer.I saw Peiper several times. He himself was very friendly, something I can’t say of all his soldiers. He said that we should best stay in the cellar, because of the danger and the situation. He and some of his Unteroffiziere slept several hours during the night of 17/18 december, in a barn behind the bakery on field matrasses.”
18 december : 01:00 : Peiper and his group are located in the western partof Vaulx-Richard. SS-Obersturmfüher Kremser’s 1.Pz.Kp. is send to the front to prepare for the attack on Stavelot, at the front is Pantherzug 1 under SS-Untersturmführer Hans Hennecke. SS-Obersturmführer Christ’s 2.Pz.Kp. and Diefenthal’s III. are right behind them. This replaced the Sternebeck Panzerspizte, and 6. and 7.Pz.Kp, along with 3.(gep.)Pi.Kp. were held back. Pötsche had, with his communicationsofficer, scouted the area the night before the attack.
02:00 : 11.(gep.)Kp./III., SS-Obersturmführer Heinz Tomhardt attacks Stokeu, outskirts of Stavelot, with Zug 1 (SS-Untersturmführer Wille Horn) and 4 (SS-Oberscharführer Rudi Rayer) who engaged the Americans without the support of the SPW’s. They managed to seize the brigde, but were attacked by American tanks and taken under fire by machineguns. Tomhardt was wounded and Horn was killed, Rayer took over command. 9.(Pio.)Kp./SS-Pz.Reg.1 checked the brigde for explosives; it was clear. Immediatly afterwards came the Panther of 1.Pz.Kp. (the leading tank was that of SS-Oberscharführer Erich Strelow), who saw 2 American 57mm AT guns blocking his path, appearantly the SS-Panzergrenadiere has missed these. He drove on hard, rode over the first two guns and crossed the bridge where he drove over another AT gun. Hennecke’s 111 was taken out in front of the the bridge, but he switched to Kremser’s Panzer and took over command of 1.Pz.Kp.
Hennecke wasted no time and rode over the bridge, two Panther (SS-Untersturmführer
Heubeck and SS-Oberscharführer Thomas) of his Kp. following him. Outside Stavelot, the rest of SS-Kampfgruppe Peiper’s Panzer and Schützenpanzewagen were lined up, waiting on a steep road. The Americans attacked the left flank of the column, but this was repulsed by Diefenthal, who afterwards, at the head of his Batallion attacked Stavelot and kept the bridge open. He recieved the Ritterkreuz for this. Belgian Zivillisten (civilians, thus partisans) and American soldiers alike fired at Diefenthal’s III.Abt. at Stavelot. Peiper did not know that, N of Stavelot, there was a huge fuel depot at Francorchamps. The Panzer did not go further than they had to, and turned left at the market, heading W towards Trois Ponts following the N23.
12:00 : Right before the 2 important railway bridges in Trois Ponts, the Americans had laid down a minefield of some 20-25 mines. Strelow, in the forward Panther, climbed out of his tank, cleared all the mines while his gunner took out an AT gun and a MG nest. When the attack started, the left bridge (over the Amblève) exploded. Jochen Peiper and Pötschke came to watch the situation on foot. Peiper wanted to go south towards Werbomont, but because the two bridges over the Amel and the Salm rivers were already blown up, he took the road to the north, following the N33.
13:00 : The Panzerspitze (1.Pz.Kp.- Hennecke) reaches La Gleize, after having passed through Coo. There, it turned SW towards Cheneux to get back on the N23, Rollbahn D. Second bridge at Trois Ponts, over the Salm is also blown up.
13:30 : Panzerspitze passed the undamaged bridge over the Amel at Cheneux.
13:35 : With the weather clearing up for the first time since the offensive, 4 P47 (Thunderbolts) spot the column and attack.
14:40 : 16 P47’s attack the strung out SS column all the back to Lodomez, before Stavelot. Pötschke takes cover under a tank, Peiper takes cover in a ditch.
16:10 : Attacks end. A total of 3 Panzer, two Pz.V and one Pz.IVH and 5 Schützenpanzer were destroyed, some 40 men are wounded. A Wirbelwind shot down one P47, several other are damaged. The medical treatment and the towing of the damaged vehicles took hours.
16:30 : SS-Kampfgruppe Knittel drives to Stavelot, Knittel rides ahead and meets with Peiper at the Cheneux bridge. Along with Knittel’s command, 6 Mk.IVH, 2 Zuge Pioniere in SPW and 3 Königstiger drive through Stavelot. The fourth is damaged and blocks the bridge.
20:00 : The Spitze continued, and reached Chauveheid. Peiper gives Diefenthal the order to cross the bridge over the Lienne at Neufmoulin. When Diefenthal arrived, the bridge was blown up by a small group of men from the 291st US Engineer battalion. Peiper heard the explosion and arrived with his communications officer and some SPW’s. Peiper had to change routes again, and ordered 10. and 11.Kp. to scout for bridges across the Lienne that can carry his tanks. It had gotten dark by now.
11.Kp. (Heinz Tomhardt) finds a small bridge near Les Forges and passed it, driving further south to the destroyed bridge at Neufmoulin. They could not locate the N23 and drove to Trou de Bras but were ordered by radio to return.
10.Kp. (SS-Obersturmführer Preuß) found a bridge 4 km NE of Neufmoulin at Moulin Rahier but it could not support any tanks. He drove on towards Chervon and Habiemont but was halted by 4 M10’s and 3 57mm AT guns from 823st US TD battalion. He lost three SPW’s and 15 SS-Panzergrenadiere. He was recalled by Peiper over the radio.
Jochen got his Kampfgruppe together again, and drove back to La Gleize since he did not have the needed bridge equipment to construct bridges during the night. He would try an attack towards the West next day direction Stoumont. LW-FlaK.Abt. 84 stays at Cheneux to observe the other side of the Lienne river.
23:00 : SS-Kampfgruppe Peiper rests between La Gleize and Stoumont. Only 5 Pz.IVH of 6.Pz.Kp. manage to reach Peiper’s group at around midnight, the rest doesn’t have enough fuel.
24:00 : SS-Kampfgruppe Knittel links up with Peiper, he has been ordered N by Mohnke because Hansen’s Kampfgruppe did not advance far enough to aide Peiper. A small supply group manages to provide Peiper with enough fuel for his attack towards Stoumont. At this point, 22 Mk.IVH, 9. Mk.IVH and 27 Mk.VIB did even attain Stavelot because of fuel shortages or mechanical breakdown.
19 december : 08:00 : Peiper attacks Stoumont with 7 Panther from 2.Pz.kp. (Christ), several Mk.IVH, Diefenthal’s Battalion, Rumpf’s 9.Pi.Kp. and the remaining Fallshirmjäger.
10:00 : Stoumont captured by the SS, but Peiper’s group has no more fuel left to continue. The MK.IVH along with Rumpf’s SS Pioniere were sent back to La Gleize. Diefenthal was ordered to defend Stoumont with his unit. Peiper now only possed of 7 Panther, 2 Wirbelwind, 11.Kp (SPW) and one Zug from Sievers 3. Pioniere.
Peiper pressed on with these units.
12:00 : The first attack on Stoumont failed, they came under tremendous artillery fire, and Peiper pulled back to just before La Gleize.
Pötschke ordered a second assault sometime later, but the artillery was still raining down. He ordered Christ (2.Pz.Kp.) to advance, but he simply shook his head. Pötschke grabbed a Panzerfaust and pointed it to Christ and told him again to advance. He refused again. Pötschke positioned himself in front of the first Panther, aimed the Panzerfaust at the vehicle and ordered forwards, into the hail of artillery. The engine started, and the Panther moved towards the village, with shells raining down left and right. It entered the village, even made it to the church, but 200 m from the station a blast from the 90 mm AA stopped it. The 11.Kp. attacked from the south, on foot, while the other Panther attacked from the road. Some Americans surrendered, others retreated and the village was taken, at the cost of one damaged Panther. The Americans had disabled the 90mm gun before they fled. Peiper chased the fleeing Americans immediatly with 5 Panther.
13:00 : Stavelot was recaptured during the night by the Americans, they had found almost no opposition. Stavelot was vital to the offensive, as it was in the route of the supply line. Americans were on the northren side, Germans on the southren egde. A counterattack was launched. The first Königstiger who approached the southren side of the village was immobilised. I.Bat. from SS-Kampfgruppe Sandig’s Panzergrenadiere rushed for the bridge to reclaim it, but are stopped by intense machinegun and mortar fire, and suffer heavy losses. Knittel, who has been send back by Peiper so secure his supply line through Stavelot, attacks from the west supported by 2 Königstiger. But the area was mined, so the 2 Tiger could not participate, and Knittel only managed to reach the western outskirts of the city. Sandig leaves I.Bat. where it is, and sends II.Bat. (SS-Sturmbannführer Herbert Schnelle) towards Wanne. When they arrive, Mohnke orders them to join Peiper.
15:00 : Peiper runs into a numerically superior enemy, 3rd battalion from 119th US inf.reg., with 12 Shermans and 4 M10 TD’s. They were holding an exellent defensive position, namely there were the Amblève river, the N33 and the railroad run next to the each other, a valley of only 300 m wide. The Shermans opened up and 2 Panther were damaged, a third immobilised (caught fire) by an AT gun. Peiper withdrew to Stoumont. At this point, he had penetrated 100 km in the American lines, but he had no fuel left. He left Hennecke’s 1.Pz.Kp. to guard the station at Stoumont with III.Abt., Christ’s 2.Pz.Kp. to guard La Gleize from the NE.
Peiper set up his HK at La Gleize, at the gardener’s house of the Froid Cour castle. The castle served as POW camp for the Americans.
19:30 : The Americans, under pressure by the Waffen-SS who are eager to retake the bridge, blow up the bridge over the Ambléve at Stavelot during a pause in the fighting. This ment that SS-Kampfgruppe Peiper was now trapped.
23 december: Bulk of SS-Kampfgruppe Hansen arrives at Petit Spai, but a Pz.Jgr. IV destroys the bridge accidentally by driving over it. That bridge was now blocked as well.
“Gentlemen, we are risking everything for everything, and may the devil come for you if I can’t depend on you.” – Oskar Klingelhöfer
http://www.geocities.com/wolfram55/ardennes.html
MI2_MAA
10-11-2005, 10:50 PM
I would have to say any of the Gorkhas of the Indian Army, along with the 18 Grenadiers, 10 JAT, Jammu and Kashmir Rifles, and any other unit that fought in the Kargil conflict.
UraBudanov
10-13-2005, 02:10 PM
Any Russian Unit
Russians are the toughest, look at history.
This is a very stupid thread: how can you put in the same bag units that fought in the jungles of Vietnam (withstanding supriese attacks, mines, etc), soldiers of World War 1 (the worst war ever) or XVIII century infantry (withstanding cavalary charges and standing to the ground)?
Still a very, VERY though unit (probably the toughest ever on human endurance) - South African Special Forces ("Recces"):
Training (http://www.recce.co.za/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=41&bid=29&btitle=Special%20Forces&meid=73)
Operations (http://www.recce.co.za/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=42&bid=29&btitle=Special%20Forces&meid=74)
Facts and Figures:
1.
South African Special Forces Operators are known internationally by their nickname of "Recces" . This is the abbreviated form of the original name of the Special Forces Regiments - the Reconnaissance Regiments.
2.
In 2002, the South African Special Forces community celebrated the 30th anniversary of the establishment of a Special Forces capability in South Africa.
3.
By the conclusion of the war in Angola in 1988, out of the more than 100 000 persons who had applied to attend the Pre Selection interviews to attempt the Special Forces Operators Training Cycle, fewer than 480 had Qualified as Special Forces Operators. Out of this number, more than 80 Operators were killed in action during the Angolan war.
4.
By the beginning of 2003, fewer than 900 persons had ever Qualified as South African Special Forces Operators - fewer people than have ever successfully climbed Mount Everest. Out of this 900, more than 200 are deceased.
5.
Since the inception of Special Forces in South Africa, retired and serving Special Forces Operators observe the Saint Michael ceremony every September. Saint Michael is the protector and Patron Saint of Paratroopers, (every Qualified Operator is also a qualified Paratrooper), and this ceremony holds a special significance for Operators - especially during times of war.
6.
Throughout its history, the South African Special Forces has been a non-racial entity, and always had approximately equal numbers of black and white Qualified Operators.
7.
The most highly decorated Special Forces Operator to date is a black Operator from 5 Reconnaissance Regiment, who was awarded the Honoris Crux Gold in 1980.
8.
Despite the fact that Special Forces Operators are held to a much higher standard than the rest of the military when it comes to the awarding of medals, the South African Special Forces Operators is still the most highly decorated military entity in South Africa in respect of Bravery Medals since the end of the Second World War.
9.
All South African Special Forces Operators are highly qualified in all aspects of Land, Airborne and Seaborne skills, tactics, operations and deployments; and are able to and have Operated in virtually all possible terrain and climatic conditions.
10.
Special Forces Operators usually wore beards because they were unable to shave during their deployments. Shaving would waste precious water, and the enemy would be able to smell the shaving cream or soap if it was used. The beards also helped with camouflage of the face for both black and white Operators, as the sun would not reflect off a beard like it would off a shaven face. Similarly, the long hair as seen in some photographs of the Recces is as result of the long periods the Operators spent behind the enemy lines on operations, where they could not cut their hair.
11.
During war, Operators could expect to be physically deployed in actual operations against the enemy - primarily behind enemy lines - for an average of 9 to 10 months per year. Many Operators did this for 10 to 15 years.
12.
During war, the average weight of kit carried by Special Forces Operators is 60kg to 80kg. For long-distance deployments or Small Team operations, the average weight of kit carried is 100kg. The heaviest kit carried by Small Teams or Long deployment Operators is 130kg.
13.
An unofficial form of achievement within the South African Special Forces is when an Operator has completed a " Gunston 500" - named after the Surfing Championship. In the South African Special Forces context, a "Gunston 500" entails conducting an operation behind enemy lines, where one walks for 500 kilometres or more with full kit. Many Operators, and most who took part in the Angolan war, have completed at least one or many " Gunston 500's" .
14.
During the Angolan war, 95% of all Special Forces operations were carried out behind enemy lines - over distances of anything from 10 km to 2000 km behind the enemy lines.
15.
During reconnaissance of enemy targets and fixed positions, Special Forces Reconnaissance Teams usually comprise 2 to 4 Operators. They conduct reconnaissance on enemy bases from direct line of sight positions right on the edge of the bases, and would penetrate inside the bases. These bases comprised and can comprise anything from several hundred up ten thousand plus enemy soldiers.
16.
During the Angolan war, Special Forces Reconnaissance Teams who entered into contact with enemy forces during reconnaissance missions, or during infiltration or exfiltration, had to conduct Escape and Evasion to escape capture or death. The distances over which E&E was applied in such situations - on foot - has varied from 20 km to over 1000km.
17.
Historically, more than 55% of all Operators were at one time or another Wounded in Action - some on multiple occasions. Very often, they dressed and treated their wounds themselves, and seldom left the field or operations for treatment.
18.
The South African Special Forces have the highest statistical Killed in Action ratio of any South African military unit since the battle of Delville Wood during the First World War. During the Angolan war, an Operator had statistically only a one in five chance of long-term survival, due to the nature, frequency and number of operations which they conducted.
19.
The first South African soldier Killed in Action at the beginning of the Angolan / former South West Africa war was a Special Forces Operator, and the last South African soldier Killed in Action at the end of the Angola / former South West Africa war was a Special Forces Operator.
20.
During the entire Angolan war, the total strength of all the Special Forces Regiments combined was never more than 200 to 250 Operators at any one time, due to their Killed in Action and Wounded in Action statistics, retirements and resignations.
21.
Special Forces Operators have never had equal of superior numbers to the enemy when attacking enemy fixed positions, and have always been heavily outnumbered in all their engagements.
22.
During the Angolan war, amongst the Soviet and Warsaw Pact forces against which South African Special Forces Operators worked were Russians, Ukrainians, East Germans and others. Also present were Cubans, North Koreans, Vietnamese, and various other Soviet-aligned forces. These included Regular Army, Air Force, Navy and Special Forces elements of these forces.
23.
During the later stages of the Angolan war, the Soviet Union diverted much of its war materiel meant for Afghanistan to Angola - including the most sophisticated Russian arms outside the Soviet Union itself. Angolan airspace became classified as the most hostile airspace in the world, with the Soviets having total air superiority for virtually the whole war. This meant that Special Forces Operators never had the possibility of re-supply, support or evacuation on the majority of their operations, and once they were in, they were completely and utterly alone until they returned.
Dutch mariniersbrigade during the police actions in netherlands east indies because they took Indonesia and laughed about it, best junglefighters in the world according to Time magazine (or something like that) when some of them arrived in Korea in 1950.
the most experienced veterans fought in Rotterdam and Zeeland (may 1940) went to Surinam or the Antilles to fight guard POW's went to the US (camp Lejeune) formed a battallion for the Dutch Princess Irene Brigade, fought their way through Europe from D-day all the way to Holland, went back to the states to prepare fighting the Japs, that didn't happen because of the nukes so they went to Mallakka to liberate the East Indies, weren't allowed by the brits for a while, went anyway in 1946 landed at Surabaja did some cleansing missions untill the first police action in 1947, fought their way through the country untill the international community forced them to stop and go back to the demarcation lines, stayed their for a while untill the second police action 1948, liberated some islands and the rest of the mainland (together with the army of course) and then gave the entire thing back in orderly fashion when the international community forced us home.
then volunteered for deployment in Korea for 9 months.
that's 10 years of warfare
http://www.marine.nl/images/scr%20Mariniersbrigade%252001_tcm10-3984.jpg
StukaJr
10-13-2005, 05:19 PM
Did anybody said OMFG Delta!!!11111 yet?
Ea$y-8
11-22-2005, 12:10 AM
It really depends on what level of unit formation your talking about. If you are talking about units on the Division level.
For the Germans I would go with the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th divisions from the Waffen SS and Großdeutschland and Panzer Lehr from the Heer.
For the Americans The 1st Marine Division, 101st and 82nd Airborne ( the 101st is now Air Assault) 1st Cavalry Division and the 1st Mountian Division.
British 1st and 6th Airborne Divisions (WWII) and the Royal Marines (they don't have "Divisions") and the The 2nd Parachute.
Israel has the "Nahai" Infantry Brigade And Parachute Brigade.
For Special Operations You Have the British SAS/SBS.
American Have Army Special Forces (Green Berets) 75th Ranger Regiment, Delta Force, Marine Force Recon (Raiders in WWII) Navy SEALs (counting DEVGRU aka "SEAL Team SIX") last but not least Air Commandos.
Israel has it's famed Sayeret.
Germany has the KSK.
Holycrusader
11-22-2005, 07:26 AM
Did anybody said OMFG Delta!!!11111 yet?
Could you tell me more about Delta performance in armed conflict's?
Are they efficient?
Clearday-TRForce
11-22-2005, 08:18 AM
Hmmm...many people writes own country units here.So here s mine country s heros (many...)...
-Ottoman Emp. "Yeniçeriler"
-Modern Turkey's famous "Bordo Bereliler" and "SAT-SAS Units"
-M.Kemal's "Anafarta Orduları" (won a war against 8 country)
-"Suleyman the Magnificent's armies" his famous below;
(Link (http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/OTTOMAN/OTTOMAN1.HTM))
who am Sultan of the Sultans of East and West,
fortunate lord of the domains of the Romans, Persians, and Arabs,
Hero of creation, Neriman of the earth and time,
Padishah and Sultan of the Mediterranean and the Black Sea,
of the extolled Kaab and Medina the illustrious and Jerusalem of the noble,
of the throne of Egypt and the province of Yemen, Aden, and San'a,
of Baghdad and Basra and Lhasa and Ctesiphon,
of the lands of Algiers and Azerbaijan,
of the region of the Kipshaks and the lands of the Tartars,
of Kurdistan and Luristan and all Rumelia, Anatolia and Karaman,
of Wallachia and Moldavia and Hungary
and many kingdoms and lands besides;
the Sultan Suleyman Khan, son of the Sultan Selim Khan.
- The "hunter" Mehmed IV 's armies
...
many...
regards,
CDTRF
wiking
11-22-2005, 09:27 AM
Mine goes to the British redcoats in the napoleonic war.
And Napoleon's Imperial Guard. Buggers lost once didn't they, British infantry at waterloo. Before that they beat just about everything that was unlucky enough to get in their way. (If i'm wrong, tell me so, don't shout and scream and curse :) I'm getting good at predicting these things.)
And i've allways admired the British performance at the Battle of Omdurman, Sudan on 1898.
They came close to breaking at several points, out numbered and attacked from the rear with a small force to hold them off. Close combat, Churchill who was there as a Lieutenant in the 10th Lancers i think, related that at one point the enemy came so close the soldiers fighting the flanking move had to fire massive field pieces at pistol range.
And still, the British lost only 48 dead and 382 wounded out of a force of 3000, constituting the rear guard, holding off about 20.000 Dervishes all on their onesies. Totally the Dervish forces suffered 10.000 killed, 16.000 wounded and about 5.000 captured. Now that's some pretty good figues for a MASSIVE battle. (the total British force counted between 25 and 30 thousand i think.)
A wankfest for nationalists :roll:
bigjeff
11-22-2005, 08:16 PM
A wankfest for nationalists :roll:
Tat's true...a wasteland of it.:|
Clearday-TRForce
11-23-2005, 02:53 AM
A wankfest for nationalists :roll:
thats true...no sense.
jipman
11-23-2005, 12:24 PM
thats true...no sense.
Yes...But..
Any Finnish unit because we owned the Germans and Russians:)
Simply put we are t3h 1337.
Edit: Yes, even better than Casey Rybak of Seal Team 6.
fingon
12-01-2005, 02:19 PM
Any Russian Unit
Russians are the toughest, look at history.
And yet they were unable to "free" Finland, altough they tried it twice. Well I give you the credit of stopping the germans and Napoleon.
But just by looking the REAL facts about WW2 you can easily found out that the finns were up against all the odds and still managed to survive. And the surround attacks (There isn't even a good word in english to say this, Finnish started to use a word "motti") which were made by finnish army make other surround-type attacks look like a handfull of warm dog****. Just read about them. And yes, I am a nationalist.
Battle of Suomussalmi, maybe be the most famous of them all ( The conditions were somewhat totally different than for example in Bastogne, where the "real" winter fights were fought.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Suomussalmi
No comments about wikipedia, everybody is free to use google.:)
edit. After reading the question i say that the thoughest unit in military history is a one-man-sniper-team called Simo Häyhä whos score in only 100 days of war is the highest in the history of snipers.
ed316
12-01-2005, 02:39 PM
Look at the USMC and Imperial Japanese Army during WW2 in the Pacific if theses two aren't up in top three then I don't know what tough is.
jipman
12-01-2005, 02:55 PM
Yes no question the Russians are tough as nails but they need to get their shyt together.
kk111
12-01-2005, 03:06 PM
Brandenburger "Lehr Regiment Brandenburg zbV 800 "
Ea$y-8
12-01-2005, 04:48 PM
After reading the question i say that the thoughest unit in military history is a one-man-sniper-team called Simo Häyhä whos score in only 100 days of war is the highest in the history of snipers.
Simo Hayha killed over 500 Soviets with his scoped Mosin Nagent plus 200 more with a submachine gun.
fingon
12-01-2005, 04:59 PM
Simo Hayha killed over 500 Soviets with his scoped Mosin Nagent plus 200 more with a submachine gun.
542 according to his comppany's log. Something between 501 and 599 could be close, who knows.
FFanatic
12-01-2005, 06:37 PM
Simo Hayha killed over 500 Soviets with his scoped Mosin Nagent
He used mostly iron sights on his rifle. There's threads about Häyhä on this site. Use search if interested.
Ea$y-8
12-01-2005, 07:24 PM
Yes...But..
Any Finnish unit because we owned the Germans and Russians:)
When did you fight the Germans? And btw the USSR won the Winter War and gained 10% of Finland "Just enough to bury our dead" as a Soviet General put it.
Ea$y-8
12-01-2005, 07:27 PM
He used mostly iron sights on his rifle. There's threads about Häyhä on this site. Use search if interested.
I stand corrected :)
Alphonse
12-01-2005, 08:53 PM
U.S Army Rangers, American Paratroopers WWII, Gurkhas, Island-hopping Marines...
Lazarou
12-01-2005, 09:10 PM
When did you fight the Germans?
In the Lapland War (September 1944 - April 1945).
And btw the USSR won the Winter War and gained 10% of Finland "Just enough to bury our dead" as a Soviet General put it.
Keep in mind that it was a political victory - a very costly and controversial one. Militarily, as we all know, it was one of the worst screw-ups of the 20th century. "Soldiers did not lose the war, politicians did" as some old people here say.
Lanton
12-01-2005, 10:16 PM
Marines and Seabees on Iwo Jima
First Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment, "Gloucester Hill" (Hill 235)
Ea$y-8
12-01-2005, 11:17 PM
[QUOTE=Lazarou]In the Lapland War (September 1944 - April 1945). I just read a short thing on this war. From what I can gather the Germans were cut off already and slowly but surely forced to surrender.
fingon
12-02-2005, 02:29 AM
In the Lapland War (September 1944 - April 1945). I just read a short thing on this war. From what I can gather the Germans were cut off already and slowly but surely forced to surrender.
Ok, maybe so, but it does not change the fact we drove them off.. And if you put it that way, one could have their own suspections about Bastogne, Operation Market Garden, etc. I don't think German put a great effort on stopping the western allieds. Moreover, they felt they had lost, and the fatherland should be better give in the hands of USA &England than the USSR. Well it's easy to come to this conclusion, but I'm sure most of you won't except it. Anyways, there are lots of good and tough units. Fortunately they all aren't from the marinecore.:)
Kitsune
12-02-2005, 03:34 AM
The "war" between Germans and Fins was not very hotly fought, it started out downright phoney (both sides informing each other when they would "attack" and such) although there were some ugly scenes at the very end. Finland, like all of Germanys enemies, finally switched to the winning side. Be proud of it.
Reminds me a bit of the many French or Dutch who joined the Resistance in the days after the German withdrawal.
Better late than never, I suppose...;-)
Destin
12-02-2005, 08:30 AM
The "war" between Germans and Fins was not very hotly fought, it started out downright phoney (both sides informing each other when they would "attack" and such) although there were some ugly scenes at the very end. Finland, like all of Germanys enemies, finally switched to the winning side. Be proud of it.
Reminds me a bit of the many French or Dutch who joined the Resistance in the days after the German withdrawal.
Better late than never, I suppose...;-)
I gotta stick up for Finland here, hehe. They were pretty abused by all sides during WW2 and merely fought for survival and independence. They started off as Allies, Britain and USA selling them warplanes and other equipment. This being during the Winter War in 1939 when Russia was part of the Axis. Russia changed sides and joined the Allies ONLY after Hitler invaded Russia. Seizing upon that opportunity, Russia again invaded Finland to finish what they had started 2 years before. That's why the 2nd war with the Russians is called "The Continuation War". Finland was left totally alone at that point. When Finland started fighting back, and hard, and whipping the Russians (again), that got some of the Allies upset. Most noteably Churchill. He became obsessed with the outrage that Finland would actually fight for it's survival and independence and was already calling for no less than a brutal and unconditional surrender of Finland as far back as early 1943. The USA, on the other hand, was more cordial to Finland. They actually sent a peace delegation to Moscow to hammer out a peace treaty between Russia and Finland so that they could bring Finland back into the Alliance, stop Finland and Russia's distraction, and focus on wiping out Hitler. Moscow proposed a brutal set of terms to the American delegation, the Finns never got the chance to decline it. The Americans declined it on behalf of the Finns because they said it was too excessive. Eventually after months of negotiations, the USA had to conceded that they would never be able to get Russia to lessen it's treaty conditions and gave up in futility. All the while, Churchill is still thinking of Finland as being as bad, if not worse, than Hitler. I'll never figure out why he was so passionate about punishing Finland. So he's still calling for their complete and unconditional surrender, which dragged out the Continuation War for another full year. Unbelievably, and possibly due to the American pressure, Stalin reverses course and actually says that Finland has put up such a heroic fight for it's very survival, that he didn't see a need to impose unconditional surrender terms. Course, at that time, Leningrad near the border with Finland was still under seige. Speaking of which, Finland never made a point to invade Russia, even tho they could easily have done so. Perhaps that changed Stalins mind. As soon as Finland advanced to the 1939 borders, they stopped. And even tho they had a bit of a relationship with Germany during this time, they told the Germans that the Leningrad seige was all on them, that they wouldn't interfere with it. However, Finland did say that if Germany did take Leningrad and were able to prove that they could completely defeat Russia, then they would consider any proposals to drive into the heartland with them. But it never came to them even having to make such a decision.
In the end, Finland finally had to accept tough peace terms when the Allies and Russia were able to finally able to lift the seige of Leningrad, thereby putting Finland square in the bullseye of all-out allied fury. If Russia had pushed for another major invasion at that point, the British and Americans would have been forced to go in with them. Not to mention the fact that it could have seriously prolonged the war with another huge distraction, simply because Russia wanted a bigger buffer between the Finland border and Leningrad. Eventually, with the writing on the wall, the Finns had to accept the conditions or keep fighting much longer and possibly against all the Allies. Finland didn't have any beef with the Allies at all. Russia, as I pointed out, was never originally part of the Alliance. British had trained alot of the Finn pilots also. Peace conditions I'd have to research to be totally accurate, but was roughly the post Winter War borders, Finland having to agree to only ever have a 58,000 man total military, ceding almost all their entire navy, sweep mines/barriers from Gulf of Finland and Baltic Sea areas and lots of other "reparations".
That leads to the one big condition. The Lapland War. As part of the peace treaty, Finland had to make war upon the Germans. They had lended/leased some of their bases to the Germans. So now they had to fight them and kick them out. As well as help fight out the rest of the war. And yeah, early on in that, Finland basically told the Germans if they immediately set about leaving, they would take it easy on them. But in the end, the Germans had operational plans in place for the peace between Russia and Finland. So Germany, in some areas of Finland, then went on the offensive and were gonna make Finland pay. And though the fighting probably wasn't as brutal as the war with the Russians, it was war nonetheless. And there wasn't any of this "we're coming to attack you" stuff, as you say, once German went on the offensive against the Finns. Thankfully, German was getting put on the ropes and couldn't afford a prolonged war with Finland cause they were getting their clocked cleaned in France and on the Eastern Front after D-Day and the Allied juggernaut of dominance got rolling along.
All in all, Finland just wanted to be independent and a democracy. They wouldn't have had that under the Russians. And with Russia changing sides, then using that as an excuse to attack Finland a 2nd time and try to draw in the USA and Britain, what do you expect Finland to do? Lay down and surrender? Hell no, they did what any reasonable human beings would do. They fought for their freedom. And they are/were the only country who fought against Russia, who remained free after WW2. All the others ended up being swallowed by the infamous "Soviet Union".
I hold the Finns in high regard for their strong will and determination. Their passion for freedom and self determination. Their brilliant military tactics and innovations. They were just doing what they had to do to survive, any other government/leader like that would have done the same I'm sure.
The fact that the Finns had to beg, borrow or steal what military equipment they could get their hands on, most of which was useless or outdated, and then used it to embarass a military no less than 10x what they were and soundly whip them every time out, speaks volumes. I mean, the Finns were whipping ass with BIPLANES early on. You'd have to give them some votes for sure. Outgunned, outmanned and outclassed technologically, yet still managed to reel off victory after victory.
Kitsune
12-02-2005, 10:41 AM
@Destin:
You are quite right, buddy. But I simply could not resist to fire a dart after a certain arrogant remark from the Finnish corner. p-)
Lokos
12-02-2005, 11:03 AM
when Russia was part of the Axis.
The Soviet Union was never part of the Axis.
Russia changed sides and joined the Allies ONLY after Hitler invaded Russia.
The Soviet Union was its own side. Stalin actively planned for general war with Germany in 1942, when the RKKA would complete its reformative processes. He had also offered to go to war in 1938, when Czechoslovakia was dismembered - which the Western Allies refused. There was no 'friendship' between the GGR and the USSR.
When Finland started fighting back, and hard, and whipping the Russians (again)
Considering the flow of the general war, the subsequent draining of Soviet units for the 'Front' from the Finnish border, the Finnish rearmament and greater mobilization, it is hardly surprising that Finland achieved successes.
Speaking of which, Finland never made a point to invade Russia, even tho they could easily have done so.
No, not really. Don't confuse Soviet unwillingness to make an issue of reoccupying territories lost in the first days and weeks of the War on the Finnish Front for the incapability to beat off some hypothetical Finnish offensive - an offensive that would tear the heart out of Finnish manpower in one fell swoop, in any case.
Perhaps that changed Stalins mind.
About as unlikely as it gets.
thereby putting Finland square in the bullseye of all-out allied fury
What you mean to say is 'Soviet fury'. The Soviet government wouldn't have allowed any WA presence in that conflict, in any case.
Russia had pushed for another major invasion at that point, the British and Americans would have been forced to go in with them.
No, no they wouldn't have. In fact, the Soviets would have insisted the opposite.
Not to mention the fact that it could have seriously prolonged the war
Considering that the Soviets broke through the Finnish lines in 1944 on the second day of the offensive; hardly.
and try to draw in the USA and Britain
Nope.
All the others ended up being swallowed by the infamous "Soviet Union".
Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria were not. Nor was the DDR. WP members they may have been, but independent they were, too.
and then used it to embarass a military no less than 10x what they were and soundly whip them every time out, speaks volumes.
Someone's been perusing the liquor cabinet, I see.
Lokos
keimo lantio
12-03-2005, 04:08 AM
"Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria were not. Nor was the DDR. WP members they may have been, but independent they were, too."
Word "swallowed" can be understod differently, however those countries became satellite countries of USSR, so there is not big difference.
Lot of Soviet divisions were surroundered and destroyed which was not the case in Finnish side. One has to remember that the terrain even out the overwhelming material superiority of Soviets and Finnish troops were better trained for "forest" fighting.
At the end of the war Soviets lauched massive operation with more trained and battle hardened troops and gained success with heavy causualties. The men and material which was brought to theatre was simply too much for small Finnish army. However, we maintained our independency, compared to those satellite countries.
I don't even want to think what would happened to Finland if the war would have been lost.
Lokos
12-03-2005, 04:12 AM
At the end of the war Soviets lauched massive operation with more trained and battle hardened troops and gained success with heavy causualties.
Since the Finnish line broke on the 2nd day, what kind of casualties are you thinking they suffered?
Lokos
fingon
12-03-2005, 04:43 AM
Since the Finnish line broke on the 2nd day, what kind of casualties are you thinking they suffered?
Lokos
Heavy, but the defencelines at Kannas were plenty, and it was quite easy to retreat to the others. Also Finland used its few tanks with men as "a breakbuster", if you know what i mean. Where ever there was a break, they counter-attacked.
Salonen
12-03-2005, 08:48 AM
Here are some which might not have been mentioned.
19th century:
French Zouaves. Or where do you think US Civil War Zouaves got their inspiration from?
20th century:
French Colonial Paratroopers of the French Indochina war, 1946-54.
Viet Cong, Viet Minh, NVA, Charlie, or whatever they were named.
Algerian and Morroccan Tirailleurs, and Moroccan Goums of the Italian Campaign 1944.
keimo lantio
12-03-2005, 04:18 PM
Since the Finnish line broke on the 2nd day, what kind of casualties are you thinking they suffered?
Lokos
Are really asking that, since answer is very simple? Of course Finns suffered heavy losses against overwhelming force.
Vihta
12-03-2005, 05:03 PM
Heavy, but the defencelines at Kannas were plenty, and it was quite easy to retreat to the others. Also Finland used its few tanks with men as "a breakbuster", if you know what i mean. Where ever there was a break, they counter-attacked.
This doesn't have much to do with this thread, but my grandfather fought at Kannas and lived to tell about it.
My vote also goes for the Finns.
Lokos
12-04-2005, 12:03 AM
Are really asking that, since answer is very simple? Of course Finns suffered heavy losses against overwhelming force.
The question was hypothetical. 'Heavy casualties' is all very relative. In absolute terms, you're quite right, many were hurt or killed. In proportion to the overall Soviet force, though, the casualties were quite light for an operation of that size and scope.
Lokos
keimo lantio
12-04-2005, 04:28 PM
The question was hypothetical. 'Heavy casualties' is all very relative. In absolute terms, you're quite right, many were hurt or killed. In proportion to the overall Soviet force, though, the casualties were quite light for an operation of that size and scope.
Lokos
But that initial attack was stopped and after the unsuccesful battle of Tali-Ihantala Soviets decided to cease larger scale manouvres. That Tali-Ihantala battle was on of the heaviest artillery battles in the WWII. After Finns received much needed anti-tank weapons from Germany, they managed to stop the Soviet attack. Before that, ir was pretty risky business to try demobilize tank with log of wood or with molotov cocktail. Antitank weapons were nice tools for AT-men who used to run next to a tank, when now they could destroy them from distance. Peace of cake, they said...
In Tali -Ihantala Finns lost 8841 men and Soviets aroun 21000 and 400-500 tanks and ~140 planes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tali-Ihantala
Never under estimate the Soviet leaders willingness and ability to sustain human sacrifice, someone said some time ago
Ea$y-8
03-04-2006, 05:21 PM
I'm honestly amazed that no one has yet mentioned the 1st Marine Division (USMC) and the 41st Independent Commando unit (Royal Marines) during the Chosin Reservoir campaign in 1950. I'm almost certain there were also attached units from the US Army but I'm afraid I don't know who they were.
Task Force Faith which was built up of elements of the US 7th Infantry Division.
Royal
03-06-2006, 09:05 AM
Mine goes to the British redcoats in the napoleonic war.
And Napoleon's Imperial Guard. Buggers lost once didn't they, British infantry at waterloo. Before that they beat just about everything that was unlucky enough to get in their way. (If i'm wrong, tell me so, don't shout and scream and curse :) I'm getting good at predicting these things.)
The reatreat from Moscow anyone? ;)
Oh and it was Four One (Independent) Commando - no 'unit' at Chosin there were also (amongst the British troops there) elements of the SBS.
When you read about the way the British fought with Marlborough breaking the French expasion dreams.
ed316
03-06-2006, 03:41 PM
USMC but I'm bias
Greek soldier
03-06-2006, 03:50 PM
Legio Patria Nostra or Legion etrangere ;)
and Waffen SS.... :( :(
jipman
03-06-2006, 03:56 PM
Ivalon Sissikomppania!
KEEPER0311
03-06-2006, 08:47 PM
Marine Raiders and Paratroopers holding the line at Guadalcanal.
British Paratroopers during Market Garden.
And definitely the 101st. Abn. during the Ardennes campaign.
Defiantly, and the Soviet troopers in Stalingrad
KEEPER0311
03-06-2006, 08:47 PM
USMC but I'm bias
Whos not.
Semper Fi!
Violet Fashion by Mindy
03-06-2006, 10:18 PM
Independant Companies
These guys launched clandstine missions behind enemy lines against the Japanese in WW2. Often outgunned, outnumbered. But had remarkable sucess. Especially keeping quite a few Japanese stationed in Timor.
Silverdragon
03-06-2006, 10:46 PM
Napoleon's Imperial Guard.
ed316
03-06-2006, 10:50 PM
Napoleon's Imperial Guard.
Until they got to Moscow.
Ea$y-8
03-06-2006, 11:28 PM
Here is my master list of units I thought were outstanding
- Finns in Winter war
- 12th SS Panzer Division at Caen
- 1st Marine Division at Frozen Chosin
- US 5th Special Forces Group in Vietnam
- Fallschirmjägers at Mount Cassino
- Stonewall Brigade in US civil war
- II. SS Panzer Korps at Kharkov, Prokhorovka (Kursk) and Market Garden
- 62nd Army and 2nd Guards Tank Army at Stalingrad
- Cofederate Horsemen in US Civil War
- German Sturmtruppen (storm troopers) in the Great War
- Serbian Army in the Great war
- 101st Airborne at Bastogne
- Israelis in 6 day war
- 82nd Airborne in the Italian and Normandy campiagns
- Task Force Ranger in Somalia
- Afrika Korps under Erwin Rommel
- Confederate Army of Northern Virginia in US Civil War
- US 2nd Infantry Division at the "May Massacre" in Korea
- Union sharpshooters in US Civil War
- Prussians in 7 weeks and Franco-Prussian wars
- US Army Ranger battlions in WWII
please note that the master list is edited when ever I find a good example that deserves to be placed on it.
the Soviet 62nd army....Japanese units defending Okinawa and Iwa Jima
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