Why don't Muslims grow up?

[Dennis G]

Why don't we Muslims grow up?
Irshad Manji



The Newsweek riots show that the head should be engaged as quickly as the heart



SO NEWSWEEK has retracted its report about the defiling of Islam’s holy book, the Koran, by interrogators at Guantanamo Bay.



It’s too late. A single paragraph in the magazine, alleging that American soldiers had flushed a Koran down a lavatory, was enough to mobilise anti-American rallies from Gaza to Java. Violent riots have taken place in Afghanistan; effigies of President Bush have been torched in Pakistan.

Serious questions do emerge from this debacle. Muslims are left asking whether the United States, a country that trumpets the virtues of faith, respects all religions. Journalists are wondering what standards allowed an incendiary charge to be published without proof. But at least one more question needs to posed: even if the Koran was mistreated, are violent riots, chants of “Death to America,” and vows of jihad a justified response?

“What do you expect?” my critics will declare. “Abusing the Koran is like abusing basic human rights. If you’re a good Muslim, your very identity and dignity are bound up in revering the Koran. It’s the literal word of God. Unsullied. Untouched. Unedited. Unlike the other holy books.”

Sorry. That argument just doesn’t wash. One can appreciate the Koran’s inherent worth, as I do, while recognising that it contains ambiguities, inconsistencies, outright contradictions — and the possibility of human editing.

This is not simply a reform-minded Muslim speaking. This is Islamic tradition talking. For centuries, Islamic philosophers have been telling the story of the Satanic Verses. The Prophet Muhammad accepted them as authentic entries into the Koran. Later, he realised they deify heathen idols rather than God. So he belatedly rejected the verses, blaming them on a trick played by Satan. Which implies that the Prophet edited the Koran.

Let’s push this point further. Because pious Muslims emulate Muhammad’s life, those who compiled the Koran’s verses after his death might have followed his example of editing along the way. The compilers were, after all, only human — as human as Muhammad himself. Moreover, they collected the Koran’s verses from sundry surfaces such as bones, stones and bark. How did the passages get there? According to Islamic lore, the Prophet, an illiterate trader, could not personally record them. His companions served as second-hand scribes, often writing from memory.

Given so much human involvement, isn’t it possible that human errors infiltrated the process of pulling together the “authoritative” Koran?

In asking this question, I’m neither impugning the allegorical wisdom of the Koran nor inviting another fatwa on my life. I’m saying that Muslims have to get comfortable asking such questions. Riots in Afghanistan left at least 14 dead. Aid workers have been attacked; their offices burnt. How does this benefit the cause of dignity? Another question needs to be asked: is dignity the same as identity?

These days, it’s lazily assumed that if you challenge a group’s deeply held religious convictions, you’re undermining their dignity. That’s certainly how my questions will feel to most Muslims.

Yet by urging my fellow Muslims to consider these questions, I’m showing faith in our capacity to be more thoughtful and humane than most of our clerics give us credit for. I’m appealing to their heads rather than only to their hearts. Ultimately, I’m fighting not Islam but the routinely low expectations of those who practise it.

Contrast that with the tactics of Imran Khan. The Pakistani cricketer turned politician rallied his countrymen to express their rage about the Newsweek report. As a fierce critic of Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan’s President, Khan was doing more than opposing his government’s co-operation with the United States on security matters. He knew he was feeding the most reflexive of Muslim impulses: to treat the Koran with uncritical veneration.

It reminds me of the Miss World beauty pageant in Nigeria in 2002. That fiasco spun off into church-burnings and more than 50 deaths. It was not the affront of immodestly clad women that sparked the uproar. Nigeria’s Muslims had known for months about their country hosting the pageant. Rioting began only after a columnist suggested that the Prophet Muhammad would have enjoyed it and taken its winner as his wife. An imprudent remark, to be sure, but should it have caused banditry and murder?

When people are indoctrinated to believe that certain dimensions of religion are off-limits to questions, it doesn’t take much to incite violence — or to withhold forgiveness. In the Nigerian case, even though the offending newspaper apologised three times, Muslim protesters set its offices ablaze. Weeks earlier, the same columnist had scolded Christians and invoked the name of Christ along the way. Nobody died.

Muslims worldwide are organising demonstrations for the end of this month against those who insult Islam. They will peacefully protest against not just the possibility of the Koran’s desecration at Guantanamo, but also proven torture at Abu Ghraib and civil rights violations suffered by Muslims in the United States. They have every right to condemn these injuries.

Will they also speak out against the bloody, fiery riots that, in the name of honouring Islam, are killing an increasing number of Muslims and non-Muslims? It’s a question worth asking.

© New York Review of Books

[Praetorian 05]

Their mentality is confused because they have small *****es! Why else would it be so important to control their women.

Their problems stem from insecurity.

[EsoognomEhT]

:bash:

[faithless]

Its all religions fault.

[SeanAshi]

I'm sure this has been brought up but how do you flush a book down a toilet? I'll try it later with the Book of Mormon. :lol: nah I'm kidding.

[faithless]

Ok but how many times have muslims destroyed others religious items or something like that.

[American Patriot]

DO NOT TRY TO FLUSH A QURAN

I paid $65 to Roto-Rooter to have my toilet fixed.

[Praetorian 05]

Save the book; flush a Muslim!

[Bronson]

Wouldn't us Americans love to be painted with the same brush, as so many on here are quick to do to Muslims?

I've yet to meet a Muslim-American who spouted the kind of hate you see on here. But then again, "they" are all so nutty right? :roll:

[Praetorian 05]

Give that Fker a Suicide Vest and see how much you like him!


(I know :oops: I'll stop the Spam.)

[Ayura]

Give that Fker a Suicide Vest and see how much you like him!


(I know :oops: I'll stop the Spam.)


As far as Islam is concerned, suicide is Haram. In Islam, anyone who commits suicide, immediately goes to Jahanam (hell).

[stuntman]

Give that Fker a Suicide Vest and see how much you like him!


(I know :oops: I'll stop the Spam.)


As far as Islam is concerned, suicide is Haram. In Islam, anyone who commits suicide, immediately goes to Jahanam (hell).
This is true unless they kill in the name of Allah which makes it just peachy! Truth is I don't have a problem with Islam as a religion, I just hate the present interpretation of it. It reminds me of Catholism in the middle ages. The religion can be great, but unlike Catholism or Judism there is no central over site like a I have (Vatican) to really decide whats best in a modern minded world! By the way if you guys get a chance read this womans (Irshad Manji) books, she is well read in general politics of western and eastern societies and is a good patriot of Canada!

[cbreedon]

Give that Fker a Suicide Vest and see how much you like him!


(I know :oops: I'll stop the Spam.)


As far as Islam is concerned, suicide is Haram. In Islam, anyone who commits suicide, immediately goes to Jahanam (hell).
This is true unless they kill in the name of Allah which makes it just peachy! Truth is I don't have a problem with Islam as a religion, I just hate the present interpretation of it. It reminds me of Catholism in the middle ages. The religion can be great, but unlike Catholism or Judism there is no central over site like a I have (Vatican) to really decide whats best in a modern minded world! By the way if you guys get a chance read this womans (Irshad Manji) books, she is well read in general politics of western and eastern societies and is a good patriot of Canada!


Judaism has no central leadership like the Vatican either.

[black mamba]

there r no such things as 'devils verses' and there was no such incident as the 'changes made by the Prophet'
i don't know where this writer is getting her sources from, but she seems to b pretty messed up!

[Mr Hat]

Theres a simply reason for not growing up and it is their parents + education system. Education is ****e, their parents are faggs.

[EsoognomEhT]

:cantbeli:

[promillo]

Its, of course an educational problem.

Many muslim states are in fact islamofaschist states and they put hate against everything in the hearts and minds of kids. Look at the PA, there the hatemonging is good documented.

It might be good if we would point out the hate-preachers and lock them up, or, if they preach in foreign countriess, neutralize them.

Destroy teh so called "mosques", where the preach hate, capture the leaders, cut off their funds and fight them in every country, where they hide or where they are supportedd from.

Its a long way, but we must start it NOW!

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

I might start a crusade against the catholic churh to.

Burn the churches down. Do it in the states to where neocon fascists a bred.

:roll:

[Turhapuro]

unlike Catholism or Judism there is no central over site like a I have (Vatican) to really decide whats best in a modern minded world!
You must be kidding, right? Vatican can decide whats bes in a modern world? rofl

Maybe Islam is still at middle ages but I can assure you that catholism has not passed to this millenium (pope thinks like in the beginning of 20th century). In modern thinking, protestants start closing 90's.

Religions and modern thinking just does not mix up.

[promillo]

I might start a crusade against the catholic churh to.

Burn the churches down. Do it in the states to where neocon fascists a bred.

:roll:

blahblahblah...

do the caths tell their youth, that they shall get some TNT and blow themselve up in a crowd of "infidels"?
Do they tell that such mass-murder is "martyrdom" in the name of their god?
Do they stone women for being raped?
Do they fly swawstikas and want to exterminate a whole people?

The islamofascists do!
Thats the reason, why we have to defend us.
But how can we defend us, if we allow the enemy to put his propaganda of hate and supersticious into their victims? We must neutralize the hatemongers. Or we will be stoned or blown up or driven into the sea or got our heads cutt off with rusty knifes... Is it that, what you want?

[Weasel]

The end is near.... :(







p-)

[BigBaribal]

The end is near.... :(







p-)



So.....

http://img75.echo.cx/img75/2510/qqqq0kw.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

p-)

[Thor]

Their mentality is confused because they have small *****es! Why else would it be so important to control their women.

Their problems stem from insecurity.
Yes, it's true. I've seen them.

[Nikitaras]

The ignorance and bigotry of this thread is quite revolting. Some of you dumb little boys need to go to class instead of posting all day long. You kiddies might actually learn something instead of posting non sensical, uneducated bile.

I'm sure the majority of idiots who've made the moronic comments in this thread have A) Never met and conversed with a real Muslim or B) Have never been to a Muslim country. Either way you guys have alot of growing up to do.

[LazerLordz]

The ignorance and bigotry of this thread is quite revolting. Some of you dumb little boys need to go to class instead of posting all day long. You kiddies might actually learn something instead of posting non sensical, uneducated bile.

I'm sure the majority of idiots who've made the moronic comments in this thread have A) Never met and conversed with a real Muslim or B) Have never been to a Muslim country. Either way you guys have alot of growing up to do.

Simple.Anyone who claims to kill in Allah's name, for some vainglorious and misguided reason is no Muslim and is condemned by all.

Too bad,there are too many of these animals around.

[BigBaribal]

In fact, it's simple: you recognize a tree by looking at its fruits.

[BigBaribal]

Simple.Anyone who claims to kill in Allah's name, for some vainglorious and misguided reason is no Muslim and is condemned by all.

Btw, I've never heard about massive manifestations against islamist violence either in the muslim world or among muslim communities in western countries.

So, basically, we have no way of knowing what the muslim silent majority thinks about it.

[Nikitaras]

The ignorance and bigotry of this thread is quite revolting. Some of you dumb little boys need to go to class instead of posting all day long. You kiddies might actually learn something instead of posting non sensical, uneducated bile.

I'm sure the majority of idiots who've made the moronic comments in this thread have A) Never met and conversed with a real Muslim or B) Have never been to a Muslim country. Either way you guys have alot of growing up to do.

Simple.Anyone who claims to kill in Allah's name, for some vainglorious and misguided reason is no Muslim and is condemned by all.

Too bad,there are too many of these animals around.

The same can be said of any religion.

[chauncy republicans]

Simple.Anyone who claims to kill in Allah's name, for some vainglorious and misguided reason is no Muslim and is condemned by all.

Btw, I've never heard about massive manifestations against islamist violence either in the muslim world or among muslim communities in western countries.

So, basically, we have no way of knowing what the muslim silent majority thinks about it.
Why should they have to come out and demonstrate to apease people like you into giving them the respect not to be judged for a crime they have not commited? Thats pretty condescending and arrogant to say the least.

[BigBaribal]

Simple.Anyone who claims to kill in Allah's name, for some vainglorious and misguided reason is no Muslim and is condemned by all.

Btw, I've never heard about massive manifestations against islamist violence either in the muslim world or among muslim communities in western countries.

So, basically, we have no way of knowing what the muslim silent majority thinks about it.
Why should they have to come out and demonstrate to apease people like you into giving them the respect not to be judged for a crime they have not commited? Thats pretty condescending and arrogant to say the least.


This would just be an easy way to convince "people like me" that islam is really "a religion of peace", as we are told by our liberal medias and mainstream politicians.

In the meantime, as I don't have access to the tree, I just look at the fruits.

[b33f]

DO NOT TRY TO FLUSH A QURAN

I paid $65 to Roto-Rooter to have my toilet fixed.
rofl rofl rofl
I always wondered how the interrogator managed to do it (if he did it).



even if the Koran was mistreated, are violent riots, chants of “Death to America,” and vows of jihad a justified response?
NO.

[Stormy]

Down with all religions.. Let the pagans reclaim the Earth!!

http://mlpeters.com/zeus%20large.jpg ;)

[Ayura]

This would just be an easy way to convince "people like me" that islam is really "a religion of peace", as we are told by our liberal medias and mainstream politicians.

In the meantime, as I don't have access to the tree, I just look at the fruits.

Then people like you should go speak to some muslims, and conduct some research on the "islamic religion" not the muslims themselves.


It's extremely unwise to judge an education system by the students rather than the system itself...

[BigBaribal]

In the library of a Swiss university, I've had all the time to read extensively the koran, the hadiths and a good number of books on the subject.

In fact, I've always thought it's much wiser to learn as much as possible from a potential threat.

[b33f]

In the library of a Swiss university, I've had all the time to read extensively the koran, the hadiths and a good number of books on the subject.

In fact, I've always thought it's much wiser to learn as much as possible from a potential threat.

Know your foe. True.

[Ayura]

In the library of a Swiss university, I've had all the time to read extensively the koran, the hadiths and a good number of books on the subject.

In fact, I've always thought it's much wiser to learn as much as possible from a potential threat.


Tell me, from your own research - is Islam a threat or not? I'm just curious :)

[ronin2172]

In the library of a Swiss university, I've had all the time to read extensively the koran, the hadiths and a good number of books on the subject.

In fact, I've always thought it's much wiser to learn as much as possible from a potential threat.


Tell me, from your own research - is Islam a threat or not? I'm just curious :)
For him every person who is non white and non christian is a threat.... :lol:

[Ayura]

LOL...I wouldn't happen to know that, I'm not acquainted with BigBaribal ;)

[chauncy republicans]

This would just be an easy way to convince "people like me" that islam is really "a religion of peace", as we are told by our liberal medias and mainstream politicians.

No, I was merely commenting on the arrogant and self rightous attitude you displayed. The fact that you talk that 'Liberal Media' bull**** is highly laughable. The same 'Liberal' media you think loves Muslims, completely ignores the very same demonstrations that you speak of. If you did'nt rely so much on the media and blog sites maybe you'd actually know of a few demonstations. Although they are not apologizing and groveling to a bunch of snoty westerners like you feel they should, they are voicing their discontent with the current wave of violence that has taken place at the hands of their fellow 'Brothers' nonetheless.
It's painfully obvious you have taken to the ignorant notion that we are in a clash of civilizations between Islamic and Judeo-Christian ideals. Do some objective research on the subject and you will notice it is more acurately a clash between Muslims over the very soul of Islam.

[Ayura]

Excellent post...

[Kontra1]

[quote=Praetorian 05]they have small *****es!


Yes, it's true. I've seen them.

YOU DID! :lol:

rofl sorry guys...I couldn't resist rofl


Kontra1

[Kontra1]

Thousends of protesting Turks walked in Germany carrying both Turkish and German flags.They were critized for carrying Turkish flags. :roll:

They thought it was smart to have something indicating who they were, so people wouldn't think they were Germans protesting... :lol:

Kontra1

[Erik2a4]

I don't think that it is Islam per se that is the threat. I think that any ideology which is used by people with ambition to consume the passions of the poor and uneducated is a threat.

Islam is being used by those with power (and ambitions for more power) in the same manner as the former Communism, Facism, and the former Roman Catholic Church.

This is human nature. Some people in power or with ambitions for power utilize ideology as a tool to further their own sphere of influence.

I study Islam and the middle east currently because I want to know my enemy...that does not mean that every Muslim is my enemy...far from it, and I owe my life to the actions of more than a few Iraqis...just that nearly all of my (current) enemies are Muslim.

Of course, if someone wants to accuse me of being anti-Islamic, go ahead. I think my Muslim Turkish girlfriend could provide good character reference. ;)

Edit: You know, I've read several of BigBaribal's posts, and I often think he wins his arguments. Why? Because instead of attempting to refute his argument, those who disagree with him just resort to callng him names (racist, bigot, prejudiced, etc.)

Keep it up Big. I enjoy reading your posts. I just wish the others' counterargument was at least somewhat cogent.

[Bia]

I'm sure this has been brought up but how do you flush a book down a toilet? I'll try it later with the Book of Mormon. :lol: nah I'm kidding.

It's simply a misnomer.
Chances are they were thrown into a toilet...but of course...never flushed.

:)

[username]

If you didn't vote for G W Bush, your a terrorist

[b33f]

If you didn't vote for G W Bush, your a terrorist
Do you really have to spam every second topic with that random B.S.?

[Eat a bullet]

If you didn't vote for G W Bush, your a terrorist
What? I thought I was a freedom fighter... :lol:

[BigBaribal]

From the very good blog "View from the Right":


http://www.amnation.com/vfr/




I had recommended to an Indian citizen living in the West, whose lucid e-mails about Islam I have been posting occasionally at VFR, my article from August 2004, “The Centrality of Jihad in Islam.” He wrote back the below note which is both complimentary—about my articles—and chilling—about what would happen to people who wrote or published such articles in a country with a significant Muslim population. Let us never forget that with every increase in the Muslim presence in a non-Muslim country, the ability of that country’s citizens to speak frankly about Islam is materially diminished. Does President Bush realize this little problem? Does his twin brain, Condoleezza Rice, realize it? Hell, does anyone who matters in this country realize it?

And if any of them did realize it, would they care?

Here’s the note from my correspondent:

Thanks for the article.

I admire your writings very much. I have rarely seen anyone write with such eloquence and candour about Islam. At least there are a few honourable men who are willing to speak the truth.

The fact is though, if Americans (and Europeans) wake up within time, they can put an end to this madness and stop further ingress. And as you correctly note, this is a reversible process. Look at Denmark. Its a classic example of what can be done if the political will is mustered within time.

Such candour as shown in your numerous superb articles on Islam would be impossible in India. The problem in India is that there is a physical menace in the form of a population of 150 million Muslims. An article such as the one you wrote would cause a riot or two. No major newspaper or website (associated with the so-called “Mainstream” or “respectable press”) would dare print it for fear of their offices being bombed or being stoned to death.

But I guess French, Belgian and Italian “hate speech” laws already accomplish the death of free speech by the tyranny of law enforcement without even a single riot from Muslims. I don’t know where I’d rank that in the history of collective insanity but it would have to be right up there with the best of them.

[perdurabo]

one question what religious book says "strike them down hit them by sword in their necks..." (rough translation from polish version)
yes its quran 44:4 (or something like that i may miostaken numbers :) )
so much for religion of peace rofl

[ronin2172]

one question what religious book says "strike them down hit them by sword in their necks..." (rough translation from polish version)
yes its quran 44:4 (or something like that i may miostaken numbers :) )
so much for religion of peace rofl
And any muslim, bhuddist, hindu, atheist can quote acts of violence from the bible...what about the inquisition...or the conquistadors (who had the blessing of the church)....how interesting that peoples of ALL religions forget their transgretions when criticising another...

[chauncy republicans]

Extremist, insurgent and terrorist movements based on religious identity – and not just on the Islamist identity – need to be understood in the peculiar contexts within which they are currently being provoked. These are, in essence, reactions against modernity, symptoms of a distress provoked by trends towards modernisation within stagnant communities, of the social and moral confusion resulting from the challenge to the supremacy of the fundamentalist line of thought that has long been propagated uncontested in many countries, as well as in many sub-cultures within larger and sometimes pluralistic communities. The violence of the Islamist response is, in fact, an index of the fears and frustration at the realization that the ways of thought and of life the fundamentalists favour are losing popularity, and that they have, themselves, become a minuscule minority within Islam.

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/kpsgill/terrorism/05Feb05Pio.htm

[BigBaribal]

In the library of a Swiss university, I've had all the time to read extensively the koran, the hadiths and a good number of books on the subject.

In fact, I've always thought it's much wiser to learn as much as possible from a potential threat.


Tell me, from your own research - is Islam a threat or not? I'm just curious :)
For him every person who is non white and non christian is a threat.... :lol:

I've never said that. In fact, I do hate any kind of supremacism or colonialism.

[promillo]

one question what religious book says "strike them down hit them by sword in their necks..." (rough translation from polish version)
yes its quran 44:4 (or something like that i may miostaken numbers :) )
so much for religion of peace rofl
And any muslim, bhuddist, hindu, atheist can quote acts of violence from the bible...what about the inquisition...or the conquistadors (who had the blessing of the church)....how interesting that peoples of ALL religions forget their transgretions when criticising another...

This is no excuse for the islamofascism of TODAY!

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

As it turned out there was no excuse for an invasion of Iraq either. :roll:

[promillo]

As it turned out there was no excuse for an invasion of Iraq either. :roll:

Who invaded Iraq?

The Iranians tried but falied...some decades ago.

the last thing I remember about Iraq was its liberation.

[Erik2a4]

And thus, another thread turns to crap...

[caleb]

It always suprises me how many uneducated and retarded rednecks waste forum space with racist and unknowing comments about muslims and the Islam in generell...

If you just want to exchange the word "muslim" with "jew" you would all sound like Nazi-scum, wait....in fact all of you sound and act like Nazi-scum, already. If Goebbels was around today, he would be proud to see that racist propaganda still falls on fertile soil everywhere, where people stop using their heads and give in to simple hate that is fueled by biased and uninformed media and politicians that try to push their interrests and agenda towards a new picture of the "enemy-of-the-state" since the fall of the USSR and the end of cold war.

Brainless and blatant propaganda combined with ignorance of the islamic culture is a dangerous cocktail, but you all seem to enjoy the taste of it....

Sad to see that many of you already succumbed to fashism...

[Lazy Lob]

It always suprises me how many uneducated and retarded rednecks waste forum space with racist and unknowing comments about muslims and the Islam in generell.....

Does that apply to the brain dead wankers who shout "death to Amerrrrica" "death to Brrriten" "death to Izrrrel" and death to anyone who does not agree with them, you PC git? Oooo, ooo, ooo you could even be an Islamofascist moron.

@ Ayura. Yes I do believe Islam is a threat. So are all other religions, specially (but not only) when taken to an extreme. They dull people's minds and have a tendency to weaken civil and secular society not to mention science. I say it in a current day context. Western society has gone a bit too far in accommodating foreign cultures and not giving the same level of political protection to their own populations.

[caleb]

It always suprises me how many uneducated and retarded rednecks waste forum space with racist and unknowing comments about muslims and the Islam in generell.....

Does that apply to the brain dead wankers who shout "death to Amerrrrica" "death to Brrriten" "death to Izrrrel" and death to anyone who does not agree with them, you PC git? Oooo, ooo, ooo you could even be an Islamofascist moron.

@ Ayura. Yes I do believe Islam is a threat. So are all other religions, specially (but not only) when taken to an extreme. They dull people's minds and have a tendency to weaken civil and secular society not to mention science. I say it in a current day context. Western society has gone a bit too far in accommodating foreign cultures and not giving the same level of political protection to their own populations.

:roll:

Do you actually intend to sound like the role-model of nationalistic right-winger?

And just a quick reminder: There is no such thing as "islamofashism", it is a word that doesn't exist but is often used by ignorant rednecks who don't know what they are talking about, just like you. The term you are seeking is "fundamentalism", Islamic fundamentalism that is. Look it up..


Oh, and thanks for proofing my point, mate.

[promillo]

Some morons even dont want to see, that there is islamofascism and that this islamofascism kills people.

How brainwashed are you? We are at war since 9711 and you even dont want to know who is our enemy.

Nothing but PC-bull****. but that wont help you, if the islamofascists come or you.

[Lazy Lob]

"islamofashism", it is a word that doesn't exist

I know it doesn't exist. Fashism is not a word. ;)


but is often used by ignorant rednecks who don't know what they are talking about, just like you.

Please educate us oh mighty caleb.

[caleb]

Some morons even dont want to see, that there is islamofascism and that this islamofascism kills people.

How brainwashed are you? We are at war since 9711 and you even dont want to know who is our enemy.

Nothing but PC-bull****. but that wont help you, if the islamofascists come or you.

Go learn some grammar or how to spell properly before calling me a moron.

About your post: Wow, just wow.....I really didn't know we are at war with the whole Islamic world, I always thought we're at war with terrorists and therefore terrorist cells like Al Quaida for example, Ansar al Islam maybe and not to forget Djamal Islamia just to name the more important ones.

At war with the whole Islamic world? Just a fashist would dare to speak that out, it's simply ignorant and racist bull****.

[Freibier]

x2!

[Belrick]

The ignorance and bigotry of this thread is quite revolting. Some of you dumb little boys need to go to class instead of posting all day long. You kiddies might actually learn something instead of posting non sensical, uneducated bile.

I'm sure the majority of idiots who've made the moronic comments in this thread have A) Never met and conversed with a real Muslim or B) Have never been to a Muslim country. Either way you guys have alot of growing up to do.

You really would prefer we lived without TV and other means of infomation sharing dont you? That way Muslim's can carry out there childish and hateful acts without them being judged.

But thanks to the age we live in we can judge Islam and the foul stench of there corrupted nations without ever stepping foot in actual putrid cesspits they call home.

Time for the muslim culture to grow up.

[Belrick]

As it turned out there was no excuse for an invasion of Iraq either. :roll:

Who invaded Iraq?

The Iranians tried but falied...some decades ago.

the last thing I remember about Iraq was its liberation.

You consider a nation with armed foriegn troops roaming its streets liberated?
Bet you were there cheering the nazi liberators as they marched into Paris, Warsaw and Minsk.

[promillo]

As it turned out there was no excuse for an invasion of Iraq either. :roll:

Who invaded Iraq?

The Iranians tried but falied...some decades ago.

the last thing I remember about Iraq was its liberation.

You consider a nation with armed foriegn troops roaming its streets liberated?



Dont worry, the foreign islamofascist terrorists(I wouldnt call them troops, they are bunches) from Saudi, Jordan, Iran and so on will soon whiped off of the streets of Iraq.



Bet you were there cheering the nazi liberators as they marched into Paris, Warsaw and Minsk.

No. Because that was no liberation.
but 1944-45 as the liberation of Europe occured, there was cheering. Yust as it was in Iraq, as the coalition forces put an end to Saddams tyranny.

[Belrick]

If the majority of Iraqis were happy to have a end put to Saddam why didnt they do it themselves? Who Kept SH in power? Foriegn merceneries or Iraqi citizens?
Or were the US supporting the minority of Iraqis in true US democratic fashion? (afterall there prez was elected by the minority)

Once again you consider armed foriegn troops bombing a nation, entering and killing thousands, liberators? Not to mention tearing up treaties that offended the new liberators and taking control of the conquered nations natural resources.

The US were as much of a liberator as Russia was in 1939 when they invaded Poland. One word somes it all up.

Propaganda.

[Trigger]

"Why don't Muslims grow up?"

Well, there's these things called explosive belts... ;)

[Ayura]

Why can't muslims (and jews) be like these two people -

http://www.robertmulder.nl/nieuw/lastJews/Jem1-17.JPG



- Irrelevent to the topic, I know, but I thought I would share it :)

[Werewolf01]

I am beginning to wonder how many people here would still be burning heretics at the stake if it were legal..... :|

[promillo]

If the majority of Iraqis were happy to have a end put to Saddam why didnt they do it themselves? Who Kept SH in power? Foriegn merceneries or Iraqi citizens?

They tried it some times...but saddam had the better weapons(Gas e.g.) and they were slaughtered.




Or were the US supporting the minority of Iraqis in true US democratic fashion? (afterall there prez was elected by the minority)

Once again you consider armed foriegn troops bombing a nation, entering and killing thousands, liberators?


Yes.



Not to mention tearing up treaties that offended the new liberators and taking control of the conquered nations natural resources.

The US were as much of a liberator as Russia was in 1939 when they invaded Poland. One word somes it all up.

Propaganda.


You are doing propaganda.
You are telling lies about the liberation of Iraq and putting the USA on the same level as Stalins Russia.
Shame on you.
You choosed your side.

[Belrick]

Im spouting propaganda?

So the US never invaded iraq killing Iraqis in the process?
They didnt alter the Iraqi govt and make changes to Iraqs foreign policy?

There is no US troops patrolling the streets killing Iraqis that take offense to armed troops governing there country by gun point?

Iraq doesnt have a puppet goverment?

A minuteman shooting a redcoat was a patriot while a Iraq shooting a marine is a terrorist?

You need to think about the facts before engaging your emotions that leds you to the lie that US intentions towards Iraq were anything other than in the US best economic interests.

You mention is was Saddam who gassed his enemies? He got down and dirty and did it himself or did other Iraqi's do it for him?

[Belrick]

You are telling lies about the liberation of Iraq and putting the USA on the same level as Stalins Russia.

Stalin told his troops that they were liberating Polish pesents from oppresive land owners.

Bush told his troops that they were liberating Iraq from an oppressive dictator.

My question to you is who had the better quality of life? 1939 Polish civilians or 1990 Iraqi civilians? Is it clear cut? I think not.

What would the quality of life been like for iraqi civilians without trade embargoes? But then without the embargo it was Europe, Russia and China that were set to benefit from Iraqs oil wasnt it?

[promillo]

Im spouting propaganda?


Yes, you do.


So the US never invaded iraq killing Iraqis in the process?
They didnt alter the Iraqi govt and make changes to Iraqs foreign policy?

They neutralized saddamists and baahtists who suppressed and murdered the iraqi people. Almost one million people were killed during saddams tyranny. this was stopped. Do you regret this?
And if you call the funding of terrorists and agressions toward neigbour countries as "foreign policy" of saddams iraq, then there was in fact a change.



There is no US troops patrolling the streets killing Iraqis that take offense to armed troops governing there country by gun point?


There are iraqi and coalition troops who make iraqs streets safe and who protect the civilians from islamofascist terror.


Iraq doesnt have a puppet goverment?


No.


A minuteman shooting a redcoat was a patriot while a Iraq shooting a marine is a terrorist?

Yes.
BTW, most of the terrorists are foreign islamofascists form jordan, saudi arabia, iran and other axis of evil staates. And they hardly shoot at coalition forces but kill mostly iraqi civilians.


You need to think about the facts before engaging your emotions that leds you to the lie that US intentions towards Iraq were anything other than in the US best economic interests.


Economic? If there were economic interests, then they were with the froggies, germans and other old europeans who refused to free the iraqi people in favor of saddams oil.



You mention is was Saddam who gassed his enemies? He got down and dirty and did it himself or did other Iraqi's do it for him?

moron.

Maybe you should ask some kurds about this.

[Nikitaras]

The ignorance and bigotry of this thread is quite revolting. Some of you dumb little boys need to go to class instead of posting all day long. You kiddies might actually learn something instead of posting non sensical, uneducated bile.

I'm sure the majority of idiots who've made the moronic comments in this thread have A) Never met and conversed with a real Muslim or B) Have never been to a Muslim country. Either way you guys have alot of growing up to do.

You really would prefer we lived without TV and other means of infomation sharing dont you? That way Muslim's can carry out there childish and hateful acts without them being judged.

But thanks to the age we live in we can judge Islam and the foul stench of there corrupted nations without ever stepping foot in actual putrid cesspits they call home.

Time for the muslim culture to grow up.

Thanks for proving my point. In one fell swoop you judge 1.3 billion people because the TV man told you so. Time for you to grow up kiddo.

[Trigger]

The ignorance and bigotry of this thread is quite revolting. Some of you dumb little boys need to go to class instead of posting all day long. You kiddies might actually learn something instead of posting non sensical, uneducated bile.

I'm sure the majority of idiots who've made the moronic comments in this thread have A) Never met and conversed with a real Muslim or B) Have never been to a Muslim country. Either way you guys have alot of growing up to do.

You really would prefer we lived without TV and other means of infomation sharing dont you? That way Muslim's can carry out there childish and hateful acts without them being judged.

But thanks to the age we live in we can judge Islam and the foul stench of there corrupted nations without ever stepping foot in actual putrid cesspits they call home.

Time for the muslim culture to grow up.

Thanks for proving my point. In one fell swoop you judge 1.3 billion people because the TV man told you so. Time for you to grow up kiddo.
If those 1.3 billion people feel so misjudged, then maybe they should do something to weed out the fanatics in their midst that keep reinforcing the negative stereotype we constantly see.
A grownup wouldn't need me to point this out.

[TheDeacon]

It seems like a lot of people are really missing the point. The original topic here was 'why don't muslims grow up' and I think it is a relevant one. Whether or not the US and its Coalition allies were justified in the invasion is not relevant to this particular question.

As others have said here, the sad fact is that some religions are used by people with political ambitions, with desires for vengeance or who have a loathing for the way other people live their lives.

The very word "religious" actually refers to someone seeking communion with God. However, its meaning has come to be "an institution pursuing an agenda of spiritual faith". What I mean by this is that it is less about you establishing a sense of personal ethics, morality and spirituality and more about people wanting to tell a lot of other people what to do.

I don't think this is limited to Islam. I think that this occurs with Christians, Jews, Hindus and whomever.

[Nikitaras]

The ignorance and bigotry of this thread is quite revolting. Some of you dumb little boys need to go to class instead of posting all day long. You kiddies might actually learn something instead of posting non sensical, uneducated bile.

I'm sure the majority of idiots who've made the moronic comments in this thread have A) Never met and conversed with a real Muslim or B) Have never been to a Muslim country. Either way you guys have alot of growing up to do.

You really would prefer we lived without TV and other means of infomation sharing dont you? That way Muslim's can carry out there childish and hateful acts without them being judged.

But thanks to the age we live in we can judge Islam and the foul stench of there corrupted nations without ever stepping foot in actual putrid cesspits they call home.

Time for the muslim culture to grow up.

Thanks for proving my point. In one fell swoop you judge 1.3 billion people because the TV man told you so. Time for you to grow up kiddo.
If those 1.3 billion people feel so misjudged, then maybe they should do something to weed out the fanatics in their midst that keep reinforcing the negative stereotype we constantly see.
A grownup wouldn't need me to point this out.

The majority of Muslim countries actually do take steps to combat extremism. Extremism is as much a threat to the ME as it is to the west. Of course a grownup would know this from first hand experience and not swallow everything that was spoon fed to them by FOX News.

[Trigger]

The ignorance and bigotry of this thread is quite revolting. Some of you dumb little boys need to go to class instead of posting all day long. You kiddies might actually learn something instead of posting non sensical, uneducated bile.

I'm sure the majority of idiots who've made the moronic comments in this thread have A) Never met and conversed with a real Muslim or B) Have never been to a Muslim country. Either way you guys have alot of growing up to do.

You really would prefer we lived without TV and other means of infomation sharing dont you? That way Muslim's can carry out there childish and hateful acts without them being judged.

But thanks to the age we live in we can judge Islam and the foul stench of there corrupted nations without ever stepping foot in actual putrid cesspits they call home.

Time for the muslim culture to grow up.

Thanks for proving my point. In one fell swoop you judge 1.3 billion people because the TV man told you so. Time for you to grow up kiddo.
If those 1.3 billion people feel so misjudged, then maybe they should do something to weed out the fanatics in their midst that keep reinforcing the negative stereotype we constantly see.
A grownup wouldn't need me to point this out.

The majority of Muslim countries actually do take steps to combat extremism. Extremism is as much a threat to the ME as it is to the west. Of course a grownup would know this from first hand experience and not swallow everything that was spoon fed to them by FOX News.
Baby steps don't count. If they genuinely cared about changing the negative stereotype the threat would be eradicated.

I see and accept your white flag of surrender in this matter. We all know that when you run out of excuses and logical argument you throw up a "FOX News" comment and some unsubstantiated comment associated with it.
Good day. p-)

[Werewolf01]

The ignorance and bigotry of this thread is quite revolting. Some of you dumb little boys need to go to class instead of posting all day long. You kiddies might actually learn something instead of posting non sensical, uneducated bile.

I'm sure the majority of idiots who've made the moronic comments in this thread have A) Never met and conversed with a real Muslim or B) Have never been to a Muslim country. Either way you guys have alot of growing up to do.

You really would prefer we lived without TV and other means of infomation sharing dont you? That way Muslim's can carry out there childish and hateful acts without them being judged.

But thanks to the age we live in we can judge Islam and the foul stench of there corrupted nations without ever stepping foot in actual putrid cesspits they call home.

Time for the muslim culture to grow up.

Thanks for proving my point. In one fell swoop you judge 1.3 billion people because the TV man told you so. Time for you to grow up kiddo.
If those 1.3 billion people feel so misjudged, then maybe they should do something to weed out the fanatics in their midst that keep reinforcing the negative stereotype we constantly see.
A grownup wouldn't need me to point this out.

The majority of Muslim countries actually do take steps to combat extremism. Extremism is as much a threat to the ME as it is to the west. Of course a grownup would know this from first hand experience and not swallow everything that was spoon fed to them by FOX News.
Baby steps don't count. If they genuinely cared about changing the negative stereotype the threat would be eradicated.

I see and accept your white flag of surrender in this matter. We all know that when you run out of excuses and logical argument you throw up a "FOX News" comment and some unsubstantiated comment associated with it.
Good day. p-)

Actually, I think he proabaly just got tired of arguing with a twelve year old mentality.

[Trigger]

The ignorance and bigotry of this thread is quite revolting. Some of you dumb little boys need to go to class instead of posting all day long. You kiddies might actually learn something instead of posting non sensical, uneducated bile.

I'm sure the majority of idiots who've made the moronic comments in this thread have A) Never met and conversed with a real Muslim or B) Have never been to a Muslim country. Either way you guys have alot of growing up to do.

You really would prefer we lived without TV and other means of infomation sharing dont you? That way Muslim's can carry out there childish and hateful acts without them being judged.

But thanks to the age we live in we can judge Islam and the foul stench of there corrupted nations without ever stepping foot in actual putrid cesspits they call home.

Time for the muslim culture to grow up.

Thanks for proving my point. In one fell swoop you judge 1.3 billion people because the TV man told you so. Time for you to grow up kiddo.
If those 1.3 billion people feel so misjudged, then maybe they should do something to weed out the fanatics in their midst that keep reinforcing the negative stereotype we constantly see.
A grownup wouldn't need me to point this out.

The majority of Muslim countries actually do take steps to combat extremism. Extremism is as much a threat to the ME as it is to the west. Of course a grownup would know this from first hand experience and not swallow everything that was spoon fed to them by FOX News.
Baby steps don't count. If they genuinely cared about changing the negative stereotype the threat would be eradicated.

I see and accept your white flag of surrender in this matter. We all know that when you run out of excuses and logical argument you throw up a "FOX News" comment and some unsubstantiated comment associated with it.
Good day. p-)

Actually, I think he proabaly just got tired of arguing with a twelve year old mentality.
Especially when the twelve year old mentality was beating him. (and you). :hug:

[Werewolf01]

The ignorance and bigotry of this thread is quite revolting. Some of you dumb little boys need to go to class instead of posting all day long. You kiddies might actually learn something instead of posting non sensical, uneducated bile.

I'm sure the majority of idiots who've made the moronic comments in this thread have A) Never met and conversed with a real Muslim or B) Have never been to a Muslim country. Either way you guys have alot of growing up to do.

You really would prefer we lived without TV and other means of infomation sharing dont you? That way Muslim's can carry out there childish and hateful acts without them being judged.

But thanks to the age we live in we can judge Islam and the foul stench of there corrupted nations without ever stepping foot in actual putrid cesspits they call home.

Time for the muslim culture to grow up.

Thanks for proving my point. In one fell swoop you judge 1.3 billion people because the TV man told you so. Time for you to grow up kiddo.
If those 1.3 billion people feel so misjudged, then maybe they should do something to weed out the fanatics in their midst that keep reinforcing the negative stereotype we constantly see.
A grownup wouldn't need me to point this out.

The majority of Muslim countries actually do take steps to combat extremism. Extremism is as much a threat to the ME as it is to the west. Of course a grownup would know this from first hand experience and not swallow everything that was spoon fed to them by FOX News.
Baby steps don't count. If they genuinely cared about changing the negative stereotype the threat would be eradicated.

I see and accept your white flag of surrender in this matter. We all know that when you run out of excuses and logical argument you throw up a "FOX News" comment and some unsubstantiated comment associated with it.
Good day. p-)

Actually, I think he proabaly just got tired of arguing with a twelve year old mentality.
Especially when the twelve year old mentality was beating him. (and you). :hug:

I concede. You're right. We should hate all Muslims because some of them are terrorists. but let's add a few to that list: Irish, environmentalists, gun owners, Christians, Jews, Spaniards, the French, Italians, Amrican Indians, Let's not forget WASPs,........

[Nikitaras]

The ignorance and bigotry of this thread is quite revolting. Some of you dumb little boys need to go to class instead of posting all day long. You kiddies might actually learn something instead of posting non sensical, uneducated bile.

I'm sure the majority of idiots who've made the moronic comments in this thread have A) Never met and conversed with a real Muslim or B) Have never been to a Muslim country. Either way you guys have alot of growing up to do.

You really would prefer we lived without TV and other means of infomation sharing dont you? That way Muslim's can carry out there childish and hateful acts without them being judged.

But thanks to the age we live in we can judge Islam and the foul stench of there corrupted nations without ever stepping foot in actual putrid cesspits they call home.

Time for the muslim culture to grow up.

Thanks for proving my point. In one fell swoop you judge 1.3 billion people because the TV man told you so. Time for you to grow up kiddo.
If those 1.3 billion people feel so misjudged, then maybe they should do something to weed out the fanatics in their midst that keep reinforcing the negative stereotype we constantly see.
A grownup wouldn't need me to point this out.

The majority of Muslim countries actually do take steps to combat extremism. Extremism is as much a threat to the ME as it is to the west. Of course a grownup would know this from first hand experience and not swallow everything that was spoon fed to them by FOX News.
Baby steps don't count. If they genuinely cared about changing the negative stereotype the threat would be eradicated.

I see and accept your white flag of surrender in this matter. We all know that when you run out of excuses and logical argument you throw up a "FOX News" comment and some unsubstantiated comment associated with it.
Good day. p-)

Why do conservatives always declare victory once their arguments are refuted and get so offended when Fox news is brought up?

As far as baby steps go, I have a question for you. Have you ever been to the ME or worked with any of their govts against terrorist threats and do you know the extent of their CT/AT efforts?

[Nikitaras]

The ignorance and bigotry of this thread is quite revolting. Some of you dumb little boys need to go to class instead of posting all day long. You kiddies might actually learn something instead of posting non sensical, uneducated bile.

I'm sure the majority of idiots who've made the moronic comments in this thread have A) Never met and conversed with a real Muslim or B) Have never been to a Muslim country. Either way you guys have alot of growing up to do.

You really would prefer we lived without TV and other means of infomation sharing dont you? That way Muslim's can carry out there childish and hateful acts without them being judged.

But thanks to the age we live in we can judge Islam and the foul stench of there corrupted nations without ever stepping foot in actual putrid cesspits they call home.

Time for the muslim culture to grow up.

Thanks for proving my point. In one fell swoop you judge 1.3 billion people because the TV man told you so. Time for you to grow up kiddo.
If those 1.3 billion people feel so misjudged, then maybe they should do something to weed out the fanatics in their midst that keep reinforcing the negative stereotype we constantly see.
A grownup wouldn't need me to point this out.

The majority of Muslim countries actually do take steps to combat extremism. Extremism is as much a threat to the ME as it is to the west. Of course a grownup would know this from first hand experience and not swallow everything that was spoon fed to them by FOX News.
Baby steps don't count. If they genuinely cared about changing the negative stereotype the threat would be eradicated.

I see and accept your white flag of surrender in this matter. We all know that when you run out of excuses and logical argument you throw up a "FOX News" comment and some unsubstantiated comment associated with it.
Good day. p-)

Actually, I think he proabaly just got tired of arguing with a twelve year old mentality.
Especially when the twelve year old mentality was beating him. (and you). :hug:

There you go again declaring victory where there is none to claim.

[Werewolf01]

The ignorance and bigotry of this thread is quite revolting. Some of you dumb little boys need to go to class instead of posting all day long. You kiddies might actually learn something instead of posting non sensical, uneducated bile.

I'm sure the majority of idiots who've made the moronic comments in this thread have A) Never met and conversed with a real Muslim or B) Have never been to a Muslim country. Either way you guys have alot of growing up to do.

You really would prefer we lived without TV and other means of infomation sharing dont you? That way Muslim's can carry out there childish and hateful acts without them being judged.

But thanks to the age we live in we can judge Islam and the foul stench of there corrupted nations without ever stepping foot in actual putrid cesspits they call home.

Time for the muslim culture to grow up.

Thanks for proving my point. In one fell swoop you judge 1.3 billion people because the TV man told you so. Time for you to grow up kiddo.
If those 1.3 billion people feel so misjudged, then maybe they should do something to weed out the fanatics in their midst that keep reinforcing the negative stereotype we constantly see.
A grownup wouldn't need me to point this out.

The majority of Muslim countries actually do take steps to combat extremism. Extremism is as much a threat to the ME as it is to the west. Of course a grownup would know this from first hand experience and not swallow everything that was spoon fed to them by FOX News.
Baby steps don't count. If they genuinely cared about changing the negative stereotype the threat would be eradicated.

I see and accept your white flag of surrender in this matter. We all know that when you run out of excuses and logical argument you throw up a "FOX News" comment and some unsubstantiated comment associated with it.
Good day. p-)

Actually, I think he proabaly just got tired of arguing with a twelve year old mentality.
Especially when the twelve year old mentality was beating him. (and you). :hug:

There you go again declaring victory where there is none to claim.

Hmmmm..you noticed that too eh? "There are no American troops in Baghdad!"

[Trigger]

Especially when the twelve year old mentality was beating him. (and you). :hug:

I concede. You're right. We should hate all Muslims because some of them are terrorists. but let's add a few to that list: Irish, environmentalists, gun owners, Christians, Jews, Spaniards, the French, Italians, Amrican Indians, Let's not forget WASPs,........

*edited for brevity

Sorry pal, but putting words in my mouth won't change the fact that you're wrong.
I said nothing about hating all Muslims. I spoke of negative stereotypes.
Feel free to misrepresent what I wrote, but it's plain enough for all to see. You will only continue to flaunt your own ignorance.

[Werewolf01]

Especially when the twelve year old mentality was beating him. (and you). :hug:

I concede. You're right. We should hate all Muslims because some of them are terrorists. but let's add a few to that list: Irish, environmentalists, gun owners, Christians, Jews, Spaniards, the French, Italians, Amrican Indians, Let's not forget WASPs,........

*edited for brevity

Sorry pal, but putting words in my mouth won't change the fact that you're wrong.
I said nothing about hating all Muslims. I spoke of negative stereotypes.
Feel free to misrepresent what I wrote, but it's plain enough for all to see. You will only continue to flaunt your own ignorance.

:cantbeli: Now which wall????

[Trigger]

Why do conservatives always declare victory once their arguments are refuted and get so offended when Fox news is brought up?

As far as baby steps go, I have a question for you. Have you ever been to the ME or worked with any of their govts against terrorist threats and do you know the extent of their CT/AT efforts?
What arguments did you or Werewolf refute? You didn't.
You tried to imply that some Muslims were being judged without reason. Your error was pointed out and you didn't like it. Then you tried to dismiss it all as a result of FOX News. I wasn't offended, I was amused.

Regarding your question (actually 3 questions):
Yes.
Not recently.
No, they keep that stuff to themselves.

Not that any of that helps your argument.

[Nikitaras]

You tried to imply that some Muslims were being judged without reason.

I think you need to go back and reread my post instead of making assumptions and implications. My response was to certain people who were judging all Muslims in the same light as Islamist fanatics. thats the same as judging all Christians by the acts of extremists who blow up abortion clinincs and murder doctors.

Your error was pointed out and you didn't like it. Then you tried to dismiss it all as a result of FOX News. I wasn't offended, I was amused.

There was no error pointed out you made a moot point which was refuted. The vast majority of Muslims condemn terrorist acts not only on other countries but on their fellow Muslims as well. As for the Fox comment, well lets just say that Fox only propels anti-Muslim sentiment in the US.

Regarding your question (actually 3 questions):
Yes.
Not recently.
No, they keep that stuff to themselves.

Not that any of that helps your argument.

Sure it does because if you claim to have done all these things then you know that many of the ME countries have very active AT/CT programs. I'm sure you're an old hat at all of this, you being Jack Bauer and all ;)

[Trigger]

I'm sure you're an old hat at all of this, you being Jack Bauer and all ;)
Way to go.
Now I have to create a whole new cover identity. :lol:

[theg]

HAHA

[Artie Bucco]

BTW, most of the terrorists are foreign islamofascists form jordan, saudi arabia, iran and other axis of evil staates. And they hardly shoot at coalition forces but kill mostly iraqi civilians.


Guerilla Wars are about fitting in, avoiding detection, and foreigners just can't compete with the native population. To claim that most of the fighters are foreigners is absurd. You can't plop a guy from Syria or Saudi Arabia and expect him to know every nook and cranny of Ramadi or Mosul. The game is about sneakiness and a guy from Saudi Arabia will stick out like or soar thumb if he is not being taken care of by local guerillas.

[Belrick]

Dont even bother Artie, his mind was made up by propaganda, you can no more convince him hes wrong than you could of convinced a wehrmacht soldier in 1939 that invading poland was wrong.

[promillo]

Artie & Belrick:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=50807

[Praetorian 05]

No one has addressed the fact that it is the Muslims, through religious teaching, whom judge all others.
Sorry but the fact still remains;not all Muslims are terrorists, but so far, all the terrorists are Muslim. Why is that? Could there be some sort of perverted or distorted teaching in that Religion?
So Nikitaras instead of attacking a good person, explain why the Muslims have been so FK'ed up through out their existance.