Thousands in Paris protest headscarves ban

[Vance]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&ncid=574&e=2&u=/nm/20031221/wl_nm/religion_france_protest_dc_2


PARIS (*******) - An estimated 3,000 protesters, including many young women in Muslim headscarves, demonstrated on Sunday against the French government's plan to ban overt religious symbols in schools.



The proposal, announced by President Jacques Chirac on Wednesday, has been welcomed by most local religious leaders but has drawn the ire of Muslims at home and abroad.


The predominantly Muslim demonstrators brandished French identity cards or the national flag as they marched through central Paris carrying banners that read "My veil, my voice" or "Veil, cross, kippa, leave us the choice." The draft law, which the government hopes to submit to parliament in February, would ban religious symbols such as headscarves, Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses.


Devout Muslims believe women should cover their hair from the view of men not related to them. Devout Jewish men wear skullcaps, or kippas, as a sign of constant reverence to God.


Pupils will still be allowed to wear discreet symbols of faith such as Islamic pendants, the star of David or crosses.


"In France, everyone is allowed to say what they think. Those who are in favor of this law have spoken, now it's our turn," said Wouassila, one of the organizers of the march.


Influential Muslim clerics have urged Muslims to use their political and economic influence over France to fight the draft law, while Syria's top cleric called on Chirac on Sunday to reconsider the legislation.


Mufti Ahmad Keftarou urged Chriac in a letter "to reconsider backing this decision to be in harmony with the great history of France...and its moderate tradition in allowing co-existence between religions, races and various nationalities."


Jacques Martin, conservative mayor of Nogent-sur-Marne to the east of Paris, fueled the controversy this week by ordering couples not to wear any religious, political or other overt symbols during civil wedding ceremonies.


Anti-racism groups said the measure was legally dubious and would only help to stir up ill-feeling toward Muslims, but Martin dismissed the polemic as a "storm in a teacup."


"This letter was written years ago and its purpose is to clarify the rules both for civil servants and engaged couples," he was quoted as saying on Sunday by the daily Le Parisien.

[duck]

http://in.news.yahoo.com/020318/43/1j1bv.html

Monday March 18, 10:27 AM

Attack adds to persecution of Christians in Pakistan: group
By Sanjay Suri, Indo-Asian News Service

London, Mar 18 (IANS) The blast in a church in Pakistan in which five people were killed Sunday follows a string of instances of persecution of Christians in that country, says an international group.

Following are some cases of persecution of Christians in Pakistan over the past year compiled by the group International Christian Concern:

February 13, 2002: The Supreme Court of Pakistan agreed to hear the case of Ayub Masih after admitting there were irregularities in his prosecution. The hearing is expected to take place within the next two to three months.

January 13, 2002: A bomb exploded inside a Christian church in Islamabad. The roof of the building collapsed, causing great structural damage. No one was in the church at the time the bomb went off.

November 9, 2001: Waheed Paul, a Catholic Christian, was shot to death as he travelled to his job in Peshawar.

November 4, 2001: Unidentified pro-Taliban gunmen murdered Benjamin John, a Christian security guard of the Airport Security Force at Quetta International Airport, as he and four other Muslim security guards attempted to halt the gunmen from entering a prohibited area. The gunmen forced John to the floor in a hail of gunfire, but did not injure any of the Muslim guards.

October 28, 2001: Five masked gunmen rushed into Saint Dominic's Church and opened fire on worshipping Christians, murdering 16 people and screaming "Graveyard of Christians - Pakistan and Afghanistan," "This is just a start," and "Allah-u-Akbar." Four children, four women, and eight men were slain in the attack.

August 9, 2001: The dead body of a 23-year-old Bible College student was found outside of his church along with a letter that said "Stop Preaching to Muslims". The Christian man, identified only as Sheraz, was kidnapped on August 2 as he left his place of work in Lahore.

June 25, 2001: Islamic extremists in Sabu Mahaal village robbed the home of Christian Hamid Masih and also raped his wife. Hamid is the brother of Saleem and Rasheed Masih, two men convicted of blasphemy in May of last year. Hamid has been caring for his brothers' wives and children. The family is now in fear for their lives.

April 1, 2001: Christian teacher Pervez Masih was arrested on charges of blasphemy. Masih, who ran his own high school in Chailayke village, Sialkot district, was accused of uttering blasphemous remarks against Prophet Mohammed during tutoring sessions with three former students. It is believed that the teacher of a rival high school has implicated Masih falsely in order to force the school to close and gain the business for himself.

March 11, 2001: The families of two men helping to support eight Christian girls who were raped in May of 2000 were threatened by Islamic extremists. Pastor Fareed Masih and Ashiq Masih were not present at the time that the extremists forcibly entered their homes and assaulted their family members, including Fareed's mother. The group left a message for the two men, saying that if they did not stop supporting the Christian girls, they would be killed.

February 11, 2001: Fourteen-year-old Naira Nadia was kidnapped from her home in Mariam-a-bad, Shiekhupura district. The kidnappers were angry that she had dared to share her faith in Jesus Christ with her schoolmates. The girl was brutally raped.

January 25, 2001: Three Christians accused of blasphemy in 1998 were acquitted by the Lahore High Court. Hussain Masih, Isaac Masih and Iqbal Sehar Ghauri were accused of desecrating the Koran and uttering derogatory statements about the Prophet Mohammed on November 25, 1998.

January 10, 2001: Three Christians and 14 Muslims in Karachi were arrested during a peaceful protest against Pakistan's blasphemy laws. Those arrested were charged with unlawful assembly and also attempted murder.

[StarvingStudent47]

Hold up, I'm confused. What does a bombing of Christians in Pakistan have to do with the banning of headscarves in French public schools?

[duck]

What does the Israeli/Palestina conflict have to do with violence against Jewish institutions and individuals in France? The spread of wahhabism is what I think France is trying to stop. Who is intolerant against whom?

[StarvingStudent47]

What does the Israeli/Palestina conflict have to do with violence against Jewish institutions and individuals in France? The spread of wahhabism is what I think France is trying to stop. Who is intolerant against whom?

But headscarves aren't a sign of Wahhabism, any more than crucifix necklaces are a sign of the KKK or skullcaps are a sign of Kachane Chai. Moderate peaceful Muslims wear headscarves. Wahhabists make their women wear burqas and stuff.

If Bush or Sharon had passed this measure instead of Chirac, 99% of its defenders would be screaming "Racism!!! Apartheid!!!"

[ostermalm]

LoL!!!!!! StarvingStudent47: U are a looser!!!

U are against this beacuse u are a against everything french.... Lets face it; U are a dam redneck punk who/which (english insnt my mother tounge) havent seen anythin else then McDonalds.

See u in Paris neaxt spring, looser!!!!

[Ratamacue]

If StarvingStudent was a redneck, then he would be all for something like this. Rednecks normally aren't racially- or religiously-tolerant people.

PS: McDonalds aren't normally located in rural, redneck-intensive areas.

[California Joe]

I seriously hope English is about your 5th language there chucklehead.

[Jack Mehoff]

Think i should put this for my sig?


If Bush or Sharon had passed this measure instead of Chirac, 99% of its defenders would be screaming "Racism!!! Apartheid!!!"

[duck]

America is built on immigrants and their diversity. But they (for the most part) accept the Constitution and learn the prevalent language. Integrate. That is what the french government is expecting here. A parallel society hostile to mainstream values and showing signs of preparation for violent resistance against governmental authorities can only lead to either revolution or a backlash.

[StarvingStudent47]

Think i should put this for my sig?


If Bush or Sharon had passed this measure instead of Chirac, 99% of its defenders would be screaming "Racism!!! Apartheid!!!"

Be my guest :)

[StarvingStudent47]

Warning: The following image may scare the bejeezus out of some people.

http://a740.g.akamai.net/f/740/606/1d/image.pathfinder.com/time/asia/magazine/2002/0218/muslim_girl.jpg

This is the threat that makes Jacques Chirac wet his bed. Just wanted to get that straight.


America is built on immigrants and their diversity. But they (for the most part) accept the Constitution and learn the prevalent language. Integrate. That is what the french government is expecting here. A parallel society hostile to mainstream values and showing signs of preparation for violent resistance against governmental authorities can only lead to either revolution or a backlash.

Since when is wearing a piece of cloth over one's hair mutually exclusive with learning the language and following the Constitution? We have Muslim immigrants here in the USA, you know. They learn English. They follow the Constitution. But many of them ALSO wear headscarves. The first time I had a girl with a headscarf in my class was middle school (age 12). There were always one or two during high school or college. They spoke English. They were law-abiding folks. They considered themselves Americans just as much as the next student did. I never realized that other people thought this was a big deal. Trust me: it's not.

[duck]

Like Peter Gabriel once sang, there's safety in numbers.

[California Joe]

Like Peter Gabriel once sang, there's safety in numbers.

He also sang "shock the monkey" Think about it...... ;)

[farmgirl]

Like Peter Gabriel once sang, there's safety in numbers.

He also sang "shock the monkey" Think about it...... ;)

:cantbeli:

[budanski]

He also sang "shock the monkey" Think about it...... ;)

I'm putting Peter Gabriel on my 'Axis of Evil' list. ;)

[Seiyuuki]

LoL!!!!!! StarvingStudent47: U are a looser!!!

U are against this beacuse u are a against everything french.... Lets face it; U are a dam redneck punk who/which (english insnt my mother tounge) havent seen anythin else then McDonalds.

See u in Paris neaxt spring, looser!!!!

Let me guess...new to the forum. You should get to know some of the users before you start insulting them. At least that way, you can formulate a more effective insult.

[Durandal]

Like Peter Gabriel once sang, there's safety in numbers.

He also sang "shock the monkey" Think about it...... ;)

rofl

[Durandal]

PARIS (*******) - An estimated 3,000 protesters, including many young women in Muslim headscarves, demonstrated on Sunday against the French government's plan to ban overt religious symbols in schools.

Hey, this is less than the number of people that RIOTED against France's change in retirement and vacation days for government jobs...

That says something.

[Mark Sman]

Wow.
Where are all the Europeans in this thread.

God knows I've seen them in other threads.

Nobody from the continent care to chime in here with the voice of reason?

[Saranof]

Wow.
Where are all the Europeans in this thread.

God knows I've seen them in other threads.

Nobody from the continent care to chime in here with the voice of reason?

here I am, look at me, look at me :D

ostermalm? You a swede? ostermalm is a part of stockholm, our capital ;)



What starving says is true, I agree totally. (WOWZAH! :D )
It's the french intergration policy that is wrong, not the people.

[fantassin]

Those demonstrations are great; they really help the police in their search for who's who in the moslem activists groups in France; they must have taken thousands of pictures during that demo; that's why the police is really happy when activists demonstrate !

[stephane from Paris]

1 or 2 millions muslims in Paris and Around and 3000 protesters in the streets!
No comments
8% of muslims in France, 1% in USA
No comments
The head scarf isn't wear by 80% of women in north africa countries where they come from, but more and more young girls here wears it=
muslims nationalism demonstration.

Before this problem they said "we must respect the laws of France (for *** equality....), but the law should change (= when we will be more numerous)"

No comment just acting before it will be too late!

[Loco]

Wow.
Where are all the Europeans in this thread.

God knows I've seen them in other threads.

Nobody from the continent care to chime in here with the voice of reason?
I don´t see this as a disturbing question. I´ve critized France and Germany in a previous post, in this question I support 100% french decission. What´s is wrong whit it?
The making of USA is quite different of the making of many european countries, at least the oldest states. A group of european of mainly anglo-saxon origins created ex-novo a new country in America, and they wrote a Constitution in which since the first moment was stablished the freedom of religion, but at the same time the separation of State and Religion. In europe many old countries had to fight, sometimes in wars, many years after 1776 for having the same that americans. The laicism of french republic is a warranty of the religious freedom, and the public school in France was designed since the time of Napoleon as the basic tool
for making new citizens formed in the values of revolution, and the best tool for creating a french national identity, don´t forget that french republic was new, like the USA one, but France itself was very old, so the habits revolution wanted to liquidate were quite old. A laic school in France means that a pupil is a french pupil, nothing more nothing less, all pupils are the same, the politics ideology and the religious beliefs of the kid´s parentes are kept out the school´s door. Religious symbols aren´t tolerated in public school because it was religion, specially catholic church, who ruled school in France during centuries, and were religious wars between protestans and catholic which tore all europe during 2 centuries, then, when a pupil goes to a french school, nobody is interested in the religion that boy or his parents have.
Like crucifixes aren´t shown in french public schools, so muslims signs musn´t be tolerated.
I think this is an interesting thread, but I suggest to americans fellows a sincere attitude. You do know in all europe, at least western europe, there is religious freedom, like in USA, and you do know in the most of western european countries there aren´t racial discrimination and interracial marriages never were a problem, which is not the case of USA still today. The case is that there is a rising trend in muslims comunities in europe to impose their habits, many of them don´t pretend being integrated in europeans societies nor they are interested in having western habits but they attemp to impose their habits to the society in which they live, and frankly I am against it. What would you say if a girl don´t want to do her sports class at school because she doesn´t want to wear sporting clothes? What would you say if a muslim woman, better said his husband, don´t wan´t to be inspected by a male doctor in a public hospital? What would you say if a muslim don´t want to talk with a female official and even he despises her? What would you do if the parents of a 12 years old girl take her off school and sent her to Marroq for getting married after they claimed they wanted free school for their children? What would you say if the parents of a 9 years old girl send her back to Egypt, Mauritania or Senegal for mutilating her clitoris during the school holydays?
All this things I´ve asked before have occurred and are occuring just now in all europe, mainly in France and Germany because this countries have the biggest muslims comunities, but in the others countries too. I talk about Spain: Muslim comunity is growing faster, in less than 5 years they rose from 100.000 to over 1 million, the most of them behaviour in a civilizated manner, but many don´t, and bad incidents are more frequent daily. A muslim iman(a shepherd) is being judged just now because he published a book in which he describes the best way of beating women, he says he only interpretates Koran, but is clear his a cynical living in the X century, and he invocates the freedom of religions for writing his ****. This purely is insane and evil. In Melilla, an spanish city, a group of muslims women claimed that they wanted to kept the public swimming pool for them to swimming alone some time of the week, because they dont´t want to be seen by male people, well, of course this was unauthorized by the Melilla´s council, since the public swimming pool is that: public, not private, they can swing in a private pool if they want, in the same way nobody pretend muslims women to swimming in top less or bikiny, but they don´t have to tell how the rest of the people must do it. And all this things are organized all through europe. Since Europe we see americans as paranoids about terrorism, when terrorism is an old reality here, well, many of the 11-9 terrorists travelled between USA-Eurpe without any problems a lot of times, many of them had supporting cells in the most of european countries in muslims comunities. And still we, in europe, didn´t any hunting of the muslim like was done in USA the months after 11-9, our policemen investigated and cought many terrorists, but muslims in general are living well and free here. The question is I don´t want any people abuse the freedom we have here for destroying what we have, at least in Spain the religious freedom was a hard won conquest, and we don´t like fannatics perverting this freedom for doing exactly the opposite, nor we don´t like muslims talking half joking/half seriously about the lost muslims lands of Spain.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Hey, in Florida we had some Muslim broad who wanted to get her Driver's License picture taken while wearing the full-blown headscarf...thingie. Only her eyes were visible. It kind of negates the ID's effectiveness if you can only see the eyes.

Of course the authorities refused. And of course she cried prejudice & accused the DMV of religious persecution.

Make no mistake, there IS a portion of the Islamic "community" that is attempting to create a state within a state. This goes on wherever large numbers of Muslims settle. If they can get enough living there, they'll begin to exert political pressure. Sound familiar?

THAT is what France is trying to avoid. Not just the headgear - but demanding special religious accommodation at public institutions like hospitals and gov't offices. How dare they send a female clerk to talk to a male Muslim in the line at the DMV! He'd prolly get so pissed, he'd text message his wife 3 times saying "you are divorced!" ... and that would be that. Another broken family, all thanks to the states religious insensitivity.

[Durandal]

Those demonstrations are great; they really help the police in their search for who's who in the moslem activists groups in France; they must have taken thousands of pictures during that demo; that's why the police is really happy when activists demonstrate !

Ok there Adolf.

[StarvingStudent47]

What starving says is true, I agree totally. (WOWZAH! :D )

This is something I never thought I'd hear from Saranof's mouth :) :hug: