13 Sayeret Matkal soldiers refuse...

[Armour recon]

Just heard from the news that 13 Sayeret Matkal soldiers rufesed to their duty bacause of moral reason.
Anyone have a more information about this?

[Vance]

Who the hell are these people and where were they refusing to go...

[He219]

You must be talking about this story...

Israeli Commandos Refuse to Serve in W.Bank, Gaza (http://news.lycos.com/news/story.asp?section=CatalogSearch&storyId=808279)


Sunday, December 21, 2003 2:59 p.m. ET


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By Megan Goldin

JERUSALEM (*******) - Thirteen fighters in Israel's most celebrated commando unit have publicly refused to serve in the West Bank and Gaza Strip because they believe the army's operations there are immoral, Israeli media reported.

The commandos announced their refusal to serve in a letter sent to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, who has come under increased pressure to halt efforts to quash a three-year-old Palestinian uprising and instead engage in peace treaty talks.

"We will no longer be party to an oppressive rule in the territories and the disregard for the human rights of millions of Palestinians," the 13 Sayeret Matkal reservist commandos wrote in their letter, according to local television stations.

"We will no longer be a defensive wall against settlements," added the letter, in a reference to Jewish settlements in lands Israel occupied in the 1967 Middle East war.

The Sayeret Matkal, or General Staff Reconnaissance Unit, is Israel's most elite commando unit and has often been compared to the U.S. military's Delta Force or the British army's SAS.

It has carried out some of the Israeli army's most daring missions including the rescuing of 106 passengers taken hostage by Palestinian guerrillas at Entebbe Airport in Uganda in 1976.

During the uprising, the Sayeret Matkal has been involved in raids to arrest senior Palestinian militant commanders behind a suicide bombing campaign against Israel.

The commandos' letter followed a petition earlier in the year from 27 air force pilots -- all but nine of whom had retired -- as refusing to carry out missions against Palestinian militants in which civilians could be killed.

The 13 signatories to the commando letter were all identified as being reservists, but it was not clear how many were still involved in active military duty.

Sharon's office declined to comment, but military officials described the letter as political, noting that it was sent to Sharon and not military commanders.

"It is very serious that reserve soldiers are using their military past and the name of the unit in which they served as a vehicle to publish their political views," an army spokesman said about the letter.

One of the signatories, identified as Zohar, told Channel One Television: "This is not a political letter...we spoke of the phenomena of occupation which corrupts."

The commandos' letter joined the pilots' letter as the most high-profile acts of defiance by members of the armed forces since the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, when a tank brigade commander resigned rather than invade Beirut, after saying he saw children through his field glasses.

Some of Israel's top military and political figures served in the Sayeret Matkal, including former prime ministers Ehud Barak and Benjamin Netanyahu, whose elder brother was killed in the Entebbe rescue operation.

Israeli television stations said it was likely that those signatories still in active service would be dismissed from the unit. The air force removed the nine combat pilots still in active duty after they signed their protest letter in September.



Copyright © 2003 ******* Limited.

[Armour recon]

Don't know! the reporter didn't reveal their secret plan!!!!!!! It was a quick
info...

[Armour recon]

Thank's he219! :D

[ostermalm]

Vance: Because they are afraid of their lives!

Go yourself if u want.... U can actually volunteer as an foreigner. U will be given important tasks as cleaning gasmasks etc....

[He219]

Vance: Because they are afraid of their lives!

I don't think those SF guys are chicken to fight, it's what they are fighting for. They are expressing their disapproval with Sharon's politicall agenda that puts their lives and the lives of innocent Palestinians in jepardy. Remember the IDF pilots that refused to bomb Palestinians within the urban civilian populus? They were not afraid of their lives from PA anti-aircraft, but from their personal beliefs and convicitons as accountable under our creator.

My $.02

:D

[IDFM203]

I have been in enough Israeli/Palestinian debates on this forum so I am going to try not to go round and round here………………..

I am just going to try to make this one post.

Listen the IDF is a conscript army that is made up of its citizens.
Now as you and everyone else knows, Israel is divided in its views and is fragmented in differing opinions but mainly they centre on right or left (yes there is more but it falls down in general to those two camps).

Now being that the IDF is a “peoples army” well its only logical that you are going to have dissenting views that mirror the society.

The Israeli society is (my opinion, rightfully) now more right wing now (as a result of the Oslo failures to bring peace and the war that the Palestinians have started) But it does have a vocal minority left wing view as well, and that is how the IDF is as well in terms of percentages, for again its almost a exact reflection of the society.

So when I hear these 13 reservists or before with the shin bet that express their views (where a lot of them are registered labor/left wingers), I can guarantee you that there are much more with the same rank or status that disagree and hold right wing views and have expressed theirs as well.


What I am getting at here is that you in the rest of the world love to jump on this as some sort of proof that Israel is wrong (you might think Israel is wrong but this is no proof at all or has no bearing as to your arguments) or something in that nature where you point out that even some in the IDF think so…where I recognise that it doesn’t prove anything other then reaffirming that the IDF is a peoples army and as we know there is a divide and that there is a left wing that believes what Israel is doing is wrong and there is a right wing that believes what Israel is doing is correct or at least something that it has no choice but to do. (Just a note that no one even the right is happy about what Israel does, just we feel like we have no choice considering the real reality that we face on a day to day bases)

I personally feel that they are wrong to mix politics while they are in uniform and should be reprimanded for that but I wont get into that here.




To he219

For further understanding of what I am saying, imagine the U.S. was a conscript army and had everyone in the U.S. serving (like having all the Liberals, democrats, left-wingers that usually don’t serve now on mass…………….), well I can guarantee you that if it was, you would have the same or more percentage of “refusnicks” that openly express their negative views about the war amongst your ranks with regards to the U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Now if that were the case would that prove that the war was wrong or unjustified?? Or simply that your nation has a divide of an opinion about it and that’s it………….I believe the latter view is the correct way to view this.




Shalom :D

[He219]

To he219

For further understanding of what I am saying, imagine the U.S. was a conscript army and had everyone in the U.S. serving (like having all the Liberals, democrats, left-wingers that usually don’t serve now on mass…………….), well I can guarantee you that if it was, you would have the same or more percentage of “refusnicks” that openly express their negative views about the war amongst your ranks with regards to the U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq.
Shalom :D

Believe me that I am glad that the US has a professional military. I love that word 'refusenick', where did it ever originate?

As for objectors to Sharon's military policies, you mentioned the past four former Shin Bet directors, the IAF pilots and now members of Israel's Elite SF - correct me if I'm wrong.

These guys are no chumps. Don't you have to volunteer to be in SF?

Happy Hanukkah!
:D

[IDFM203]

Believe me that I am glad that the US has a professional military. yeah I hear you……..your fortunate enough to be secure enough in your home borders to not need a conscript army where everyone goes.(and have all the liberal’s with their negativity and dissenting and refusnics attitudes and views in your military especially with regards to the war with iraq, like we do, where you don’t in large numbers because no one is forced to serve and as a result a lot don’t),


I love that word 'refusenick', where did it ever originate? its from refuse(yes I know, I am caption obvious here ;) )

Listen Hebrew is full of these English words that they make into plural Hebrew words.

In fact there is a nickname for it…………hebrish (get it?….yeah its lame but the point is there :D )


As for objectors, you mentioned the past four former Shin Bet directors, the IAF pilots and now members of Israels Elite SF - correct me if I'm wrong. yes and there are Shin Bet and Mossad with ranks like those, plenty and in fact much more IAF pilots, and plenty and again much more of Israeli elite soldiers that disagree and have the opposite view as the ones that you mentioned.

So yes Israel has a divide in opinion that the IDF mirrors as you repeated now again.



These guys are no chumps. yes on the battlefield they certainly are not, as well as the soldiers that disagree with them (and there is more that disagree for again the society is more to the right now)


Don't you have to volunteer to be in SF? yes but again, the pool that volunteers again reflect on percentage terms the society and right or left.


Happy Hanukkah!
:D thank you and a happy Christmas to you :D

P.S. I believe especially you as an American (with the war in iraq) now can fully understand what a vocal minority and what a silent majority mean and how societies have that concept!!

Shalom :D

[the_spec]

yes but again, the pool that volunteers again reflect on percentage terms the society and right or left.

But wouldn't that make your whole first post, about how a conscript army reflects society, useless? I mean, if they volunteer, they obviously know what they are volunteering for and shouldn't refuse doing their duty, right?
The real question is, are they right in refusing to do certain things, 'cause they can't clear it up with their conscious or maybe because their orders really are inhumane? Or is the IDF drafting a small percentage of left winged "free thinkers" who refuse to do certain things at their own convenience?

[IDFM203]

yes but again, the pool that volunteers again reflect on percentage terms the society and right or left.

But wouldn't that make your whole first post, about how a conscript army reflects society, useless? I mean, if they volunteer, they obviously know what they are volunteering for and shouldn't refuse doing their duty, right?
First of all, no one volunteers to the army. Everyone is forced to go…. now once your in (the first day). you can volunteer to go to SF..but lets be clear, that SF "volonteer" pool is a pool of conscripts that were forced to go to the military.

Secondly, if you notice most of the people that are doing it are actually past their conscription service and are in the reserves (or a lot of them are not even involved in active missions).

Thirdly, again those that are volunteering to SF units from conscription are from a pool with right and left wingers from socity, so again IDF and even the volnteer SF units reflect society……actually the SF and good infentry units have now more right wingers as it mirrors the society that is more right wing and as such, indeed less left wingers volunteer to these SF units.

Again that doesn’t prove right or wrong, it just shows that the IDF mirrors a divided society.


The real question is, are they right in refusing to do certain things, 'cause they can't clear it up with their conscious or maybe because their orders really are inhumane?.

Or is the IDF drafting a small percentage of left winged "free thinkers" who refuse to do certain things at their own convenience? first of all your last statement is not correct either…no they believe that they are right as does the minority left view in Israel.

The majority right view believes that they are correct and that the minority left are wrong.

Again this is a society debate and the IDF mirrors that.


Listen the IDF drafts everyone. For every left wing refusnic, there is a much larger amount that disagrees and wilfully follows orders for they believe that they are correct and that it is not immoral or inhumane.


Again my point is whether you believe the IDF is wrong or right is one thing but bringing these people down to prove it, is wrong and it has no bearing or proof to anything to back up your arguments if you do in fact believe the IDF is wrong.

Shalom :D

[StarvingStudent47]

I seem to remember quite a few reports of certain US soldiers refusing to go to Iraq for religious reasons, political reasons, and lack-of-cojones reasons. And the US military is ALL voluntary. These things happen, even in top-of-the-notch militaries. I don't think too much can be read into it.

[oldsoak]

Israel is not just territory, it is also about ideals. These men show part of that - they will not partake in something they cannot morally justify to themselves. ( A pity more people did not do this when the jews were being persecuted. ) Whether its a wise decision in the light of current conflict is another matter - hope they are treated leniently - after all its not as though they are "bad" soldiers. I fully appreciate that its easy for me to praise or criticise from a safe distance. Just my 2 cents.
rgds

[marktigger]

I have to say i respect the guys who have refused to go to the occupied territories. I may not agree with them as regards duty etc. But in a society like Israel where military duty means so much to take a stand like that takes courage. as M203 has said it is a citizen army and as such reflects all of society. It is easy for soldiers to get caught up in the herd instinct and do what everyone else does. But as human beings we are given the ability to think for ourselves and to think on effects of our actions. In America and Britain we have the privilage of volunteering to serve and therefore that alters how we think and our attitudes to our military duties. But an Israeli doesn't have that choice. I would sugest those 13 guys will have had a hard time wresteling with their sense of duty and will face a hard time in the immediate and near futures. But I would say if the Syrian army cmae over the border they woul have no problems going to fight.
The Palistinian issue is a mess there is right and wrong on both sides and its got to be resolved so both sides are secure.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Hey - with conscripts, you're going to get a fair amount of unmotivated folks. Plus, these are reservists. I doubt that these people really have moral objections to doing this work. More like their instincts of self preservation has kicked in.

The article says theyr'e special forces, but I wonder just how special they are. The "SF" moniker is often used as an enticement to get people to join what amount to very un-glamorous units.

Does anybody know if these are seasoned, experienced troops, or are they just green kids? My guess would be that they're kids who bit off more than they can chew.

Like when a 17 year old walks into a recruiter's office, they hit them with the sexy security police, special forces, and EOD videos...hey do this and you get a cool pin on your hat. All I'm saying is that people join SF for a number of reasons...and many get cold feet when it's time to put up or shut up.

[Tane Angle]

The Sayeret MATKAL people are some of the most intelligent and thoughtful folks around. They are selected specifically because they think for themselves. They are usually more aware than most staff officers of the big strategic picture. They probably have wives and children to support. They have been in the IDF for a considerable amount of time, and as a result have some of the bigger paychecks in the IDF. What I'm getting at is that these people have something to lose by making this statement. I doubt they're scared; my guess is that they weighed the strategic pros and cons and decided that Israel will be better off out of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. If they are from that unit, then that's something very significant. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[UoUo]

"Sayert matkal" is one of the best unit of the world....just look for google if you want information...
BTW : most the people that refuse to serve are above 18...and above 20...and most of them in the reservse...and they didn't serve in the army for atleast 6 years....so....they just looked for the media....

[UoUo]

my guess is that they weighed the strategic pros and cons and decided that Israel will be better off out of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. If they are from that unit, then that's something very significant. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

Most of the people in israel think like that.

[Javehn]

Man , i knew you would jump on this subject. This is too much complicated issue (mostly political ) , and the media reflects only a small part of it (the one ofcorse , that would make headlines ) .Almost every male in Israel is soldier in reserves . That was political statement made by couple of people , that had they political view . The fact that this letter send to Sharon itself , and not to Army factors makes it as political statement . They knew that this one will make headlines , so they done it . They are serios guys , and soldiers , just like 90 percent of Israeli people . This arguement can go for ages , but it doesn't say at all that Israeli Army does something illegal on so called "occupied territories" .

[Tane Angle]

True, and I don't mean that as a slight on the Israeli people in general. But I think it's safe to say that the Sayeret MATKAL people are selected specifically because they do it to an extreme level.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

The Sayeret MATKAL people are some of the most intelligent and thoughtful folks around. They are selected specifically because they think for themselves. They are usually more aware than most staff officers of the big strategic picture. They probably have wives and children to support. They have been in the IDF for a considerable amount of time, and as a result have some of the bigger paychecks in the IDF. What I'm getting at is that these people have something to lose by making this statement. I doubt they're scared; my guess is that they weighed the strategic pros and cons and decided that Israel will be better off out of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. If they are from that unit, then that's something very significant. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

Point taken, but I wonder how smart it is to create units that think for themselves at this level. I mean, they're paid more specifically because they're willing (or supposed to be willing) to put themselves in harm's way at the whim of their chain of command. They should know that as foot soldiers, they're not privy to the "big picture", nor should they be. They're not paid to make policy decisions.
Hell, they fired 5-Star General McArthur when he second guessed his chain of command. Why should these enlisted guys get to do it?

[Javehn]

You can't be more wrong . Just like i said , this topic is for people of Israel to discust , because the outside world don't understand the little things , and they will make a mess out of it . You shurely can't judge what sayeret matkal know or don't know . Second , those are not "enlisted" soldiers , those are reserve soldiers of Sayeret matkal , that have built life outside the army , and army is not they main interest , or source of paycheck. Israel army as itself , because of its unic structure , and connection to Israel people (IDF called "peoples army" , because you can find all the people section in the army . And they don't mentally changed to soldiers without any point of view , because of IDF special conduction between soldiers . Those are basicly civilians with uniforms , and high millitary knowladge ) .
I think this topic shouldn't be debated here , cose it will be only miss-interpritted by people that fully don't understand the Israeli political picture .

[2Sheds_Jackson]

You can't be more wrong . Just like i said , this topic is for people of Israel to discust , because the outside world don't understand the little things , and they will make a mess out of it . You shurely can't judge what sayeret matkal know or don't know . Second , those are not "enlisted" soldiers , those are reserve soldiers of Sayeret matkal , that have built life outside the army , and army is not they main interest , or source of paycheck. Israel army as itself , because of its unic structure , and connection to Israel people (IDF called "peoples army" , because you can find all the people section in the army . And they don't mentally changed to soldiers without any point of view , because of IDF special conduction between soldiers . Those are basicly civilians with uniforms , and high millitary knowladge ) .
I think this topic shouldn't be debated here , cose it will be only miss-interpritted by people that fully don't understand the Israeli political picture .

While I respect your point of view, I don't agree that this topic can't be debated here simply because we're not all Israeli, and can't understand. This is what separates humans from lower animals - our ability to think. I don't have to fall out of a tree first in order to know that I will get hurt. It seems to me that Israel's solutions to its various problems have not been entirely successful over the years -just look at the current situation to see what I mean. Not that I have any better ideas...but it sure illustrates that maybe they aren't exactly the best and brightest either.

By "enlisted" I meant that their positions within the IDF structure is not to determine policy. Are they commissioned officers, or are they enlisted members? I don't recall the article saying which they were, so I'm assuming they're enlisted (though I could just as easily be wrong).
I've had family serving in components of the IDF, so I do realize that there's a lot that goes unreported (or reported wrong) in the world media. I'm not making a statement about whether any of Israel's policies are right or wrong.

I'm questioning whether it's appropriate for members of a military unit, especially a special forces unit, to simply refuse a mission because they disagree with their government's political policy. It is appropriate to obey all lawful orders. Military members are NOT obliged to obey unlawful orders (such as being ordered to bomb a building that is known to house non-combatants, etc.).

In my judgment, any military member who refuses a lawful order is subject to disciplinary action. You cannot have a military that's run based upon what each particular member feels like doing (or not doing) at the moment. It's obvious that these individuals can no longer be trusted to carry out orders. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be fighting next to them. So do they continue to draw a paycheck while they sit and watch the Flintstones? Do they get reassigned to gun cleaning duty? It will be interesting to see what happens to them.

[Tane Angle]

I'd like to think that I know something of Israel, but maybe I don't. I said that they're free thinkers because they have shown themselves to be free thinkers. And well, the ability to function when cut off from a chain of command, deep in enemy territory requires free thinkers, so I think it is wise to have a unit full of them. That what differentiates the unit from most other units out there, that they are supposed to get the job done with little support in the absence of a commander.

As for should they have said it...probably not. It's not their call, and the order is allegedly legal. If it is a legal order, than that's that. However, if they felt a particular operation would result in unjustifiable civilian casualties, then they have a good case. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[IDFM203]

While I respect your point of view, I don't agree that this topic can't be debated here simply because we're not all Israeli, and can't understand. This is what separates humans from lower animals - our ability to think. I don't have to fall out of a tree first in order to know that I will get hurt. I don’t think he meant it the way you interpreted it….it’s a consequence of his poor English.

Of course you or everyone else can have an opinion just like any Israeli. I believe what he is saying is that this is actually a purely political context and not a military one and Israeli politics are indeed very complex and as such Israelis do have a more of a understanding of the internal workings of it then outsiders……….That’s all.

I actually agree with a lot of what your saying!! :D


It seems to me that Israel's solutions to its various problems have not been entirely successful over the years -just look at the current situation to see what I mean. you use the word solution and I think that’s wrong. There is no magical solution.(and Israel has tried a lot of things to lead to that like the failed Oslo process)

What Israel has done has been very successful in bringing more security to Israelis (where before were being blown up on a almost daily bases to now its much less.) in the absence of a real and genuine peace partner on the other side no matter what Israel does or doesn’t do!!


Not that I have any better ideas...but it sure illustrates that maybe they aren't exactly the best and brightest either. true Israel has a lot of people that are not the best and brightest…. lets not forget that Israel is fragmented and has differnt people with all sorts of views and has left wing and a right wing parties and ideologies.

Heck the U.S. has a democratic/liberal/left part and a republican/conservative/right parts to it.

Get my drift? ;)


By "enlisted" I meant that their positions within the IDF structure is not to determine policy. Are they commissioned officers, or are they enlisted members? I don't recall the article saying which they were, so I'm assuming they're enlisted (though I could just as easily be wrong). they are reservists!! Meaning that most are not full time active service members and are not enlisted per say.

And yes they are not structured at all to determine Israeli policy!!


I'm questioning whether it's appropriate for members of a military unit, especially a special forces unit, to simply refuse a mission because they disagree with their government's political policy. I am fully with you here as well!!
Your correct to ask this…. they made a purely political statement that was outside the realm of IDF actions but rather a political statement that was intended for the political arena.

Remember they wrote this letter not the army chief of staff but rather to the prime minister and that is political.



In my judgment, any military member who refuses a lawful order is subject to disciplinary action. again I fully agree with you!!!

Especially in Israel’s case

Listen Israel is a fragmented society with all sorts of views and the IDF is a reflection of that and there is simply and must be no tolerance for soldiers be it in the regular army or in he reserves, making political statements.

I mean the same goes for the right wing settler soldiers who refuse to dismantle settlements!! Somehow I don’t think that the people on this board calling these 13 soldiers brave for disobeying orders will put that same label to those right wing soldiers that disobey. (Hypocrisy to those people if in fact they would not label those right-wingers brave as well)

The IDF must be devoid of politics or it wont be able to function due to it succumbing to the whims of the differing opinions that make up Israeli society especially the whims of the extreme left and also to the whims of the extreme right


You cannot have a military that's run based upon what each particular member feels like doing (or not doing) at the moment. It's obvious that these individuals can no longer be trusted to carry out orders. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be fighting next to them. right on!! Again that’s why the IDF will kick them out of the military.

Remember that there are slot of sayeret matkal soldiers that firmly disagree with them and believe that what they are doing is correct and just!!

Tane Angle uses the argument that they are free thinkers…. well there are a lot more of them from this unit or from others that actually disagree with those 13 and they are free thinkers as well.

Basically this doesn’t prove right or wrong, all it shows is that Israel is a divided nation when it comes to how to deal with this war that Israel is in.




So do they continue to draw a paycheck while they sit and watch the Flintstones? I mean no disrespect but your paycheck refernce is a bit funny in the contaxt of the IDF ;) :D

Anways they are reservists that serve one or two moths a year (or can be called up any time) and that is it….

Shalom :D

[Javehn]

How come you are the only one that understands me ? :(
My english can't be so bad ..

[oldsoak]

relax javehn, your english is better than our hebrew ! :D

[2Sheds_Jackson]

relax javehn, your english is better than our hebrew ! :D

Heh, that's true! I know just enough Hebrew to order a sandwich at a NY deli. :)

One other point - I understand that the soldiers in question are reservists. I keep calling them "enlisted" & I keep getting corrected --- like "no, they're not enlisted, they're reservists". I'm not referring to their military component (reserve vs. active) but their rank (enlisted vs. commissioned officer).

I don't know about the IDF, but in the States the two are not mutually exclusive. We have enlisted (NCO and below) reservists, and officer (2nd Lt & above) reservists. Oh yeah, and we have warrant officers too.

In other words, we have all our ranks in all our military components (Active Duty, Guard, and Reserve). Isn't it the same in the IDF?

[Andyman]

(as a result of the Oslo failures to bring peace and the war that the Palestinians have started)

Now its lines like that one right there that make me stop reading the post you made and realizing how stupid I am for possibly believing that you could possibly post any unbiased information. I dont mean to start a flame war but IDF really has to stop saying **** like that, it really aggrevates me.

"The war that the Palestinians started"

I want everyone who reads this to post their opinion on who they think started the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Or just ignore my post under the notion that you like many have concluded that the Israel/Palestine situation will never be solved = BLOODY PESSIMISTS!!!

[IDFM203]

(as a result of the Oslo failures to bring peace and the war that the Palestinians have started)

Now its lines like that one right there that make me stop reading the post you made and realizing how stupid I am for possibly believing that you could possibly post any unbiased information. I dont mean to start a flame war but IDF really has to stop saying **** like that, it really aggrevates me. No flame war Andyman (yet ;) ) :D (just keep this at a respectable level and I promise you that I will reciprocate in kind!!)

First of all I do have bias and I have admitted that. I am biased because I fought in this war and it effects me personally

Listen everyone has a bias (there is no such thing as Unbiased, even from a outsider looking in ) but it doesn’t mean that what I say is wrong.

If you disagree with me then fine show me how I got it wrong and back it up with facts or sane and intelligent arguments. I truly have no problem with that.

Also why if your living in Canada are you aggravated and seemingly very upset here (yeah your unbiased :roll: ;) )



"The war that the Palestinians started"

I want everyone who reads this to post their opinion on who they think started the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I am talking about the past three years with the Intifda.

Yes the Palestinians started that war (I have gone over it in great detail before on how I personally saw it unfold and also other factors that I have brought down here to show that, so I prefer not to go round and round again)

As for the conflict in general well that’s a whole other debate that again I have gone over and over and it can take pages long.

Also this is not a popularity contest here and how one thinks this or that….if people think something than bring down fact’s or sane analytical arguments to back that up!



Or just ignore my post under the notion that you like many have concluded that the Israel/Palestine situation will never be solved = BLOODY PESSIMISTS!!! I won’t ignore your post when it’s in a respectable manner. Oh and yes I am what I term a realistic or a reality pessimist (meaning not by nature but just the way I see the reality is).


P.S. I haven’t heard from you in a while, what’s up? How’s the military treating you? (hey just trying to be freindly here :D )

P.S.S this thread is about the 13 soldiers and “refusinics” and not about the whole conflict so please don’t turn this thread into that for we have had tons of those threads already.

Anyway’s shalom to you :D

[Javehn]

What is that ??? I have opened a thread in this section , that is just for this thing , and ment that other posts will remain non polute of this discustion. Look it good , it's called Israel-Palestine , mr Andyman from Toronto , Ontario that seams to be proffesor on Middle east .

[StarvingStudent47]

Why is it that people think that one dozen people's opinions are so darned important, but nobody pays attention to the hundreds of thousands of IDF soldiers who think that incursions are a necessary evil for protecting Israeli citizens from terrorism?

I'm sure I could find one dozen American servicemen who didn't think we should have gone into Afghanistan or Iraq. What does that prove? Do their votes outweigh everyone else's for some reason? Shoot, in the USA we've got a retired four-star general saying that the war in Iraq was a bad idea!!! Does that mean that he's right? No. These Sayeret Matkal guys are just Israel's Wesley Clark.

[Andyman]

Thanks man my bad. I thought you were referring to the entire Israeli/Palestinian conflict, so yeah my bad assumption. Anyways the army is good considering that my course is on Holidays until Jan 9. I would have preferred that the course continue on through the winter cause I dont celebrate christmas or anything like that so yeah it wouldn't have had an affect on me. But yeah our range weekend was cancelled in late November cause the base we were going to had all the local roads leading to it closed to any civilian vehicles and ironically our entire platoon was travelling in coach buses :cantbeli: . So yeah we were all pumped to go to the range and then they just sent us back home with full weekends pay for doing nothing p-). I also was awarded a blue chit for ensuring that my section won this inter platoon competition. Some guy couldn't finish his lap with a 200lb stratcher so i ran out and took over his spot. I was placed at the front of the platoon and our Lt told everyone that I was an example to all for physical fitness, and what can I say that made me feel good. But yeah I'm glad we have overcome our differences and I take back any harmful things I have said about you or that which you believe in.

Peace

[Saranof]

one thing here pisses me off. I don't give much for the IDFs policys.
But I react to people referring to the palestinian people as a single oraganisation. The people who cause the trouble are the terrorists. The palestinan people are NOT terrorists. That clear enough? It's like saying that because one american soldier shoots an Iraqui policeman by mistake, it means that all americans are idiots and it is therefore legitimate to bulldoze their houses to prevent futher mistakes.
See how stupid it sounds?
Grand :)

Now, how do these groups get support? Well, the fact that most palestinians live in the various camps that Israel set up dosn't help. The fact that from time to time, israeli tanks bulldoze their houses and kill some people to avenge some suicide bombing does not help.
Now. If Israel were to give these people jobs, schools, houses that arn't in a concentration camp, then many of the terrorists would have no need to fight.
Though some claim they fight against zionists, the actual cause is really that they are oppressed.
The groups that terrorise israelis should be fought, yes.
BUT not by bombs. Do you want a reason why? Well, the fact that 50 years of that policy has only resulted in loss of life and money is a quite good reason, don't yah think?
If you were to try a leftisktcommieragheadfreedomhatingantizionistand-so-on solution to the problem, and give the oppressed what they need, they wouldn't fight anymore.

Shalomskij :)

[duck]

The same guys might agree to join an assault group targeting a Pakistani nuclear missile silo or an Iranian plutonium reactor. Or they might be dropped in some godforsaken desert to evacuate members of the local Jewish community. Why are the occupied territories measure of all things?

[Tane Angle]

Just to clarify, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with them, I'm just saying that it's pretty dang noteworthy. Just as it would be if several former Delta operators went against US policy. (Say, that did happen, and they got canned :( Poor guys). Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[NcDeuce]

relax javehn, your english is better than our hebrew ! :D

Heh, that's true! I know just enough Hebrew to order a sandwich at a NY deli. :)

One other point - I understand that the soldiers in question are reservists. I keep calling them "enlisted" & I keep getting corrected --- like "no, they're not enlisted, they're reservists". I'm not referring to their military component (reserve vs. active) but their rank (enlisted vs. commissioned officer).

I don't know about the IDF, but in the States the two are not mutually exclusive. We have enlisted (NCO and below) reservists, and officer (2nd Lt & above) reservists. Oh yeah, and we have warrant officers too.

In other words, we have all our ranks in all our military components (Active Duty, Guard, and Reserve). Isn't it the same in the IDF?


http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/positive.jpg

[StarvingStudent47]

Just to clarify, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with them, I'm just saying that it's pretty dang noteworthy. Just as it would be if several former Delta operators went against US policy. (Say, that did happen, and they got canned :( Poor guys). Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

Just as "noteworthy" as General Wesley Clark's opposition to the Iraq War. No more, no less ;)

[Tane Angle]

Very true :D .

[ShotOver]

The news report i watched said these guys were the IDF's equivilant of Americas "Delta Force", is this true?

[Javehn]

To explain on the most easiest level what they up against ? Ok
They are not against the actions on territories . But because of the fact , that the fighting enviroment there is so problematic (while Israeli troops enter inside cities to find detonator labs and terrorists , they encounter fire - terrorists ussualy fire when they mix up with simple people . Soldier had to fire back , and innocent people got killed . In order to correct that , IDF started to impose cuerfew on cities , so if terrorists would get out and start to fire , innocent people wan't get harm. Ofcorse ,then Europe started to shout - "Oppression!Mass murder ! Geneva convention ! " , and for know IDF have to operate while all the people walking on the street . That is most problematic situation , i brought a film here once about IDF operation to catch terrorist while the cuerfew is not imposed . And they just got very lucky-here is the movie -property of Uri - http://uri.staff.fresh.co.il/army/DetainingRaedBarghuthi.mpeg ) , they just afraid that they will eventually heart someone innocent . Even , if that sort of things happening on the time of war , some people in Israel mostly ,from the left wing , are what is called "super morals" , and they can't take the concept of "neccecary evil".

[ShotOver]

Yeah, i saw that 3 Palestinians were killed today...

Because of an IDF "Incersion" i would like to know what exactly an IDF Incursion is, and what happens...

[Javehn]

Yeah, i saw that 3 Palestinians were killed today...

Because of an IDF "Incersion" i would like to know what exactly an IDF Incursion is, and what happens...

IDF incursion is : On operation executed by task force , when it's required to go inside the territories under full palestinian control ("A" territories ).Mostly that would be inside city/refugee camp . Mission of operation are varios : catch known terrorist , destroy detonator laboratory's , destroy enemy/ammo slicks. Ussually incursion done by previos intel information . The houses that get destroy , and then you shout "war crimes ! war crimes kill em all ! " are one of the mentioned above .
Almost immidiatly after IDF forces enter inside firefight starts .That's why it's much prefered to go at night , when every body still sleaping . Sometimes , if fire is ineffective, the guy get's lucky to come back home allive because it's choosen not to respond.Othercases ...
Firefight--dead palestinians .

[ShotOver]

So an IDF squad or platoon move into a Palestinian area, get shot at, fire back.. kill some Palestinians... do their mission and get out again?

[Javehn]

More or less , yes , that is incursion . But sometimes it can take days , weeks , and even month , when the mission target is on high level . Let's say brigade mission is to destroy every single detonator laboratories inside city X . from the brigade mission goes down to subordinates , where every one get his Area of Operation , and the mission starts... But at the end of incursion forces are drown out .The mission can go warios between , let's say to arrest some guy , and that will take nothing more then 1 hour from incursion to extraction , to what i said above , and that can take a long time .

[ShotOver]

Okay, so to sum it up.

IDF Move into Palestinian Zone/Area
Do a mission
Leave

[Javehn]

More or less , yes . Just watch what is going on in "Black hock down".This is typical incursion . They mission was to arrest couple of people , when they had outside threat . Our mission don't get so ****ed up , because we know to mass correct forces to mission , more or less , and the armed millitants afraid/don't know how to act properly on face of the task mission .