Yahhhooooo.... !!!! 54,5% No the Eu constitution

[descoqs]

Good bye Chirac... :lol:

French and European politician, it's time to land :D :D

cheeze

[Zi Pink Panthère]

Go home...... :|

[fdt]

I thought that the referendum was on EU constiution not the Chirac's presidency... :)

http://img171.echo.cx/img171/7063/jacques4ry.jpg

[Inconnu]

pffff ta voter contre chirac ??

Faut pas rever chirac partiras pas !

[M4ko]

can someone explain this whole EU constitution referendum to me? Why were only French voting on it?

[littlefrench]

this evening i'm really ashamed to be French...

Why do always people vote because of their fear ??

descoqs : shut up please, you don't understand anything, thanks ;)

M4ko : I don't speak english well enough to explain you the EU constitution but all european countries vote.

[Midav]

EU Constitution

Permanent EU president to replace six-month rotating presidencies.

EU foreign minister to conduct common foreign policy.

Qualified majority voting in most areas with vetoes limited.

Commission to be reduced to 15 with 100 non-Voting associates.

Policy areas covered by European Parliament up from 34 to 70.

Tax Harmonization.

Legally binding Charter of Fundamental Rights.

[descoqs]

this evening i'm really ashamed to be French...

Why do always people vote because of their fear ??

descoqs : shut up please, you don't understand anything, thanks ;)

M4ko : I don't speak english well enough to explain you the EU constitution but all european countries vote.

Of course, as usual, I don't understand anything, I am a traitor, a surrenderer aso aso...

But today, the french people voted clearly in a way and you're a minority.
So please, don't ask me to shut up and remember I don't care of your lectures...

55% remember, it's a clear message. ;)

[mountainbear]

EU Constitution

Permanent EU president to replace six-month rotating presidencies.

EU foreign minister to conduct common foreign policy.

Qualified majority voting in most areas with vetoes limited.

Commission to be reduced to 15 with 100 non-Voting associates.

Policy areas covered by European Parliament up from 34 to 70.

Tax Harmonization.

Legally binding Charter of Fundamental Rights.

You are American right?
With this post you know more about the constitution than most Europeans!! :lol:

French people didn’t vote against the constitution but against Chirac and those who did vote against constitution did it because it is not social enough. It should have followed the French model!! :cantbeli:

[David Lehmann]

Hello,

I am completely depressed ...

About 85% of the French voted, nice.

46% of the people said the main reason to vote no was because of the unemployment adn the innner politics ... they voted rather against our government although this was not the question which was asked.

60% of the socialists voted no, like all the other leftists (communists and other revolutionary extreme left), as well as the extreme right wing (FN) ... what a nice and coherent mix isn't it ?

In the right parties (UMP and UDF) 75% of the people voted yes.

IMHO this is bad for France and for Europe. It can weaken both of them. It's not a no to Europe, France will no go out of Europe but I am very sad tonight. We will see what will happen in other countries since the consultation about the yes or no to the constitution has still to take place in many other ones (The Netherlands, Poland, United Kingdom etc.)
If we had only voted in our parliament like most of the previous countries did we would have ended with 85% yes or more ... Of course the referendum is more democratic ... but well I can't feel happy and I am rather anxious for the future right know. This might slow down the Europe of the defense etc.

If really Europe as it was proposed is rejected by other countries I hope we could end with perhaps a more federalist model. A Europe of Nations working together rather than a big Europe mixing all the countries. But this will proabably take a generation more.

David

[hajaji]

What will be the repercussions of this voting?
Are they ,the French, going to have another vote or this is the last word?

[Midav]

EU Constitution

Permanent EU president to replace six-month rotating presidencies.

EU foreign minister to conduct common foreign policy.

Qualified majority voting in most areas with vetoes limited.

Commission to be reduced to 15 with 100 non-Voting associates.

Policy areas covered by European Parliament up from 34 to 70.

Tax Harmonization.

Legally binding Charter of Fundamental Rights.

You are American right?
With this post you know more about the constitution than most Europeans!! :lol:

French people didn’t vote against the constitution but against Chirac and those who did vote against constitution did it because it is not social enough. It should have followed the French model!! :cantbeli:

I'm a dual US-German citizen :)

I knew some of the points by heart, but not all... I cheated and looked it up ;)

And yes, this is more against Chirac than anyything on how I see it.

[mountainbear]

David Lehmann

60% of the socialists voted no, like all the other leftists (communists and other revolutionary extreme left), as well as the extreme right wing (FN) ... what a nice and coherent mix isn't it?

That’s happening more and more often in Switzerland between the socialist party and the ultra-conservative!

[joka]

If really Europe as it was proposed is rejected by other countries I hope we could end with perhaps a more federalist model. A Europe of Nations working together rather than a big Europe mixing all the countries. But this will proabably take a generation more.

David

+1, Well said.

What happens now? Is there a new proposal in the works? Is the idea of a constitution totally scrapped?

[David Lehmann]

Hi,

The French have voted, period. 10 countries have already voted but several only in their parliament like Germany in France we organized a referendum (consulation of the whole population).

Other countries have still to vote yes or no to the constitution that is proposed. If the no really wins than Europe will stay in the current status for at least 10 years more I guess.

Regards,

David

[descoqs]

The repercussion will be that the "Old Europe" has to tell itself strong question.

It's a clear signal that the country is going to collapse.

David Lehman, how this vote can slow down the military Europe since this plan was anyway not on the way ( a ridiculous budget ).

If you want a Military Europe, then first of all, let's share the seat at the UN security council with Germany... then allow a budget comparable to the american one.
Nothing concerning such a project was in the constitution.

This constitution was an empty-project... and it failed, really normal

[joka]

Hi,

The French have voted, period. 10 countries have already voted but several only in their parliament like Germany in France we organized a referendum (consulation of the whole population).

Other countries have still to vote yes or no to the constitution that is proposed. If the no really wins than Europe will stay in the current status for at least 10 years more I guess.

Regards,

David

So assuming all the other European nations approve it, what would happen then? I thought it had to be accepted by everyone, without exceptions?

[achilles]

This constitution was an empty-project... and it failed, really normal

Have you read it? If yes, what was so empty about it? If no...well, you are on the wrong thread ;)

[Sharp]

this big decisions shouldn't be take by the people and, as we can see now, by the stupid man who defend their interets and only them.
the europe is not for this old mans as Villier or Le Pen, it's for us, the new young.

Chirac have, i think, see the problem and the benefits of a Europe, the Europe.
It would show the democracy of the France and give the voice to the people, it's was a good thing and an error , because there have no come-back now.
We should not do a referendum for that. :|

[AROUETLJ]

I don't know why the **** you Americans or Anti-Europeans should be so jubilant about this result. The Constitution would have done more than anything to protect US control over European affairs. See Article I/41 of the Constitution.

[mountainbear]

this big decisions shouldn't be take by the people and, as we can see now, by the stupid man who defend their interets and only them.
the europe is not for this old mans as Villier or Le Pen, it's for us, the new young.

Chirac have, i think, see the problem and the benefits of a Europe, the Europe.
It would show the democracy of the France and give the voice to the people, it's was a good thing and an error , because there have no come-back now.
We should not do a referendum for that. :|
???????????In a DemocracY World?? really????

[Vertigo]

We Germans should visit France again and wash their heads :bash:

[David Lehmann]

We Germans should visit France again and wash their heads :bash:

Are you so sure of what would have been a referendum in Germany ?
With the people who lastly voted against Schröder etc. ?

Nonetheless I hope the Frenco-German cooperation which created the roots of the EU will go on.

Regards,

David

[Luxembourger]

don't know why the f*** you Americans or Anti-Europeans should be so jubilant about this result.

? I think that voting no to the constituion does not mean being anti european.

[David Lehmann]

don't know why the f*** you Americans or Anti-Europeans should be so jubilant about this result.

? I think that voting no to the constituion does not mean being anti european.

Of course not, it means an other view of Europe, not a reject of Europe ... Although amongs the 54.5% of people who voted against Europe there is a part of nationalists which are indeed anti-Europeans...

David

[Luxembourger]

if there were a referendung on the constituiton in Germany , does anyone know how the result would have been ?

I personnaly think the Germans would have said no too, but i might be wrong.

[Sharp]

this big decisions shouldn't be take by the people and, as we can see now, by the stupid man who defend their interets and only them.
the europe is not for this old mans as Villier or Le Pen, it's for us, the new young.

Chirac have, i think, see the problem and the benefits of a Europe, the Europe.
It would show the democracy of the France and give the voice to the people, it's was a good thing and an error , because there have no come-back now.
We should not do a referendum for that. :|
???????????In a DemocracY World?? really????

when it's about our future, yes...
it's not because you are in a democratic country that you will let kill youself without move...

as we have see, the people are too stupid for understand, they just follow the politics mans who said "no"
it's not them who will payed the price of that, it's us.

[Moledet]

That doesn't mean that our agreement with the EU is off, right?

[Vertigo]

Germany

59% Yes
15% NO
26% Equal

[Luxembourger]

nationalists which are indeed anti-Europeans...



I don t think so, I think being patriotic and love their country is not an evil thing and does not mean too to be anti europe. Although the fachist party in france voted no too, but that was to be expected since they are anti european.

I think most people said no too because they don t want to lose their identity being french.,,,

I mean that we are all europeans but that does not mean that some european laws will overwrite our national constitutions and delete some of our identity

[TheBelgian]

this big decisions shouldn't be take by the people and, as we can see now, by the stupid man who defend their interets and only them.
the europe is not for this old mans as Villier or Le Pen, it's for us, the new young.

Chirac have, i think, see the problem and the benefits of a Europe, the Europe.
It would show the democracy of the France and give the voice to the people, it's was a good thing and an error , because there have no come-back now.
We should not do a referendum for that. :|
???????????In a DemocracY World?? really????

I agree with sharp. Who the hell is stupid enough to let the public decide on an issue like this? I bet 80% of the people who voted on the constitution today didnt have the first clue about its content. It was basically a battle over which side could launch the best propaganda campaign. France did not vote on the consitution, they only used this opportunity to show their discontentement with the current french domestic situation. At the same dealing a heavy blow to European integration... Goddamn Chiraq for being stupid enough to hold a referendum. Descisions of this weight and complexity should be left to government officials who know what they're doing.

[David Lehmann]

Germany

59% Yes
15% NO
26% Equal

That was not a referendum, you cannot compare apples and oranges.

David

[AROUETLJ]

It's just that the US shouldn't be happy at all with this result. *


Of course you had pro-Europeans who voted NO, but I'm talking about people on the other side of the pond who thought this was a vote for or against Chirac, or for or against the EU itself.

* Same thing in the UK. This was as much Blair's vision of Europe as it was Chirac's, econonmically speaking.

Anyway, it's too early to predict the effects, and 15 other countries still have to vote. in 3 days' time it's the Dutch's turn, and polls predict a No victory, but for completely different reasons (UK tax subsidies.)

So you see, it's more complicated than you think. Bluezoo, feel free to add your comments to this thread, but you've been warned ;)

[mountainbear]

this big decisions shouldn't be take by the people and, as we can see now, by the stupid man who defend their interets and only them.
the europe is not for this old mans as Villier or Le Pen, it's for us, the new young.

Chirac have, i think, see the problem and the benefits of a Europe, the Europe.
It would show the democracy of the France and give the voice to the people, it's was a good thing and an error , because there have no come-back now.
We should not do a referendum for that. :|
???????????In a DemocracY World?? really????

when it's about our future, yes...
it's not because you are in a democratic country that you will let kill youself without move...

as we have see, the people are too stupid for understand, they just follow the politics mans who said "no"
it's not them who will payed the price of that, it's us.

It’s not the end of the world things will only go slower. It took 500 years for Switzerland to become how it is now and it worked pretty well 150 years of peace and stability.

[AROUETLJ]

I agree with sharp. Who the hell is stupid enough to let the public decide on an issue like this? I bet 80% of the people who voted on the constitution today didnt have the first clue about its content.

Wise words indeed.

[Vertigo]

Germany

59% Yes
15% NO
26% Equal

That was not a referendum, you cannot compare apples and oranges.

David
inquire around

[mountainbear]

I agree with sharp. Who the hell is stupid enough to let the public decide on an issue like this? I bet 80% of the people who voted on the constitution today didnt have the first clue about its content.

Wise words indeed.

What?
I just cannot imagine that some peoples would prefer not to participate in taking the decision on an important subject like this one. :(

[David Lehmann]

inquire around

You mean this is the result of a poll among the population ?

David

[Freibier]

I'm dissapointed with you Frenchies p-)

[BigBaribal]

Germany

59% Yes
15% NO
26% Equal


This is for the parliament.

Polls in Germany show that the people is againt this constitution at about 60%



Btw, what happened this evening is just GREAT, the "globalists", either from the left or from the right, have been defeated :D :D :D

[BigBaribal]

this big decisions shouldn't be take by the people and, as we can see now, by the stupid man who defend their interets and only them.
the europe is not for this old mans as Villier or Le Pen, it's for us, the new young.

Chirac have, i think, see the problem and the benefits of a Europe, the Europe.
It would show the democracy of the France and give the voice to the people, it's was a good thing and an error , because there have no come-back now.
We should not do a referendum for that. :|
???????????In a DemocracY World?? really????

I agree with sharp. Who the hell is stupid enough to let the public decide on an issue like this? I bet 80% of the people who voted on the constitution today didnt have the first clue about its content. It was basically a battle over which side could launch the best propaganda campaign. France did not vote on the consitution, they only used this opportunity to show their discontentement with the current french domestic situation. At the same dealing a heavy blow to European integration... Goddamn Chiraq for being stupid enough to hold a referendum. Descisions of this weight and complexity should be left to government officials who know what they're doing.


The alternative to the "stupid" people is an oligarchy. A kind of elitist mafia fearing and controlling the people to keep its power and privileges.

And tonite, it's so rare these days, the voice of the people has been heard and it's a pain for the fake-democrats who are in fact ugly globalists.

[cut]

fools
french socialist are officially greedy and nationalistic. Their justification is that they can get it passed by the 2009 deadline. The only thing these guys didn't think of was the pretty obvious fact that if france voted "non" no one else is going to let them get away with it.

[BigBaribal]

fools
french socialist are officially greedy and nationalistic. Their justification is that they can get it passed by the 2009 deadline. The only thing these guys didn't think of was the pretty obvious fact that if france voted "non" no one else is going to let them get away with it.



80% of the workmen, either from the right or from the left, voted for the "no" and this is just great. The ploutocrats, either from the right or from the left, have it in the ass tonite rofl

Btw, 65% of the people less old than 25 voted for the "no" too.

It's so great to see French citizen saying no to the "no-nation" concept!

In fact, it's a great opportunity for the coming of a real Europe, an "european" Europe by and for its citizen.

[MEGR]

Europe will unite eventually. This is just a minor setback.

[Oddbod]

GOOD
Now perhaps, we can begin to dismantle the overbearing, interfering & unelected European Comission.
The US Constitution was based on the English "Bill Of Rights; both were short, concise & understandable by anyone with half a mind.
The proposed EU Constitution is verbose, complex & only undestandable to SOME of those involved in its creation.
The whole raison d' etre of the EU has become the enrichment of the Beaurocrats entwined in its operation.

Pen-pushers produce NOTHING & merely absorb the assets of those who do.

I positively welcome the demise of the whole parasitic entity.

[Patrocle]

I'm very happy, i did not want to see my country ruled by other countries, even if they are neighbours.

France is still an independant country and this is a good thing in my point of view.

[BigBaribal]

But Europe must not be buried, an Europe in the form of a confederation of states and not a united federation.

[Drako]

The French just hit the bottom. It reminds me some idiots from our parliament before we entered the EU: "blahblahblah Germans will buy all our land blahblahblah our economy will be destroyed blahblahblah we'll lose our independence blahblahblah". Pure BS.

[Kilgor]

From what ive been hearing, this constitution would have helped bring economic reforms, thus helping "old" europe compete with "new" europe and the outside world. ?

[Mamon]

this big decisions shouldn't be take by the people and, as we can see now, by the stupid man who defend their interets and only them.
the europe is not for this old mans as Villier or Le Pen, it's for us, the new young.

Chirac have, i think, see the problem and the benefits of a Europe, the Europe.
It would show the democracy of the France and give the voice to the people, it's was a good thing and an error , because there have no come-back now.
We should not do a referendum for that. :|
???????????In a DemocracY World?? really????

I agree with sharp. Who the hell is stupid enough to let the public decide on an issue like this? I bet 80% of the people who voted on the constitution today didnt have the first clue about its content. It was basically a battle over which side could launch the best propaganda campaign. France did not vote on the consitution, they only used this opportunity to show their discontentement with the current french domestic situation. At the same dealing a heavy blow to European integration... Goddamn Chiraq for being stupid enough to hold a referendum. Descisions of this weight and complexity should be left to government officials who know what they're doing.
Indeed. Why should the people be allowed to vote on a Consitution that would, directly or otherwise, speed up the loss of our cultural identities, and create an avenue to bring about a centralized government, which by its very nature undermines the sovereignty of the nations bound to it? Ever heard of democracy? Really, the age of Absolute Monarchs is long gone. Maybe they should've just left the decision to the parliaments, with votes being bought as in an auction right up until the day of the vote.

You mention the fact that most people didn't understand the concept of the Constitution. For it to be universally understood, it should've been much more concise and precise. Either way, Europe has far too many of its own problems(social, economic) to shoulder the burden of integrating itself further; of dubious worth at any rate.

Descisions of this weight and complexity should be left to government officials who know what they're doing
Right, give more power to our wise, government officials, who can do no wrong. After all, it's only the future of Europe, and there's only one correct decision. Really, I can't believe nobody else on this forum has ripped this person a new one yet.

[M4ko]

How does the referendum affect Chirac's presidency?

[Siddar]

Winners and Losers out of this Vote

Winner
US This vote ends the myth of there ever being a European superpower.

UK Europe will now have to look for a new path UK will be well placed to offer one.

Russia Same view as US but Europe was allot closer and a much bigger threat to Russia then it was to US.

Tony Blair He was a goner as PM if UK had been first to kill this.

European Democracy Elites now have to go back to basics and build a new reason for Europe and will have to give allot more respect to views of the peasant classes.

Losers
France France has allway dominated Europe by pushing for more and faster European intergration and forceing others to go along with there view unless they be seen as not being european enough. This vote ends that forever.

Turkey Never really had snowballs chance in Hell of joining EU as a full member this vote really is just the first step in stateing that fact.

China Sorry no arms exports for you and we cant really allow chinese textile imports to put a million europeans out of work because we have to finaly start listening to these damned peasants are we may all lose are jobs as well.

Chirac Dead man walking.

European Elites Back to the drawing boards for these guys and much angst and unhappyness about how they managed to botch this whole issue.

[hughdotoh]

?????????

All I know is that the French would rather be governed from Paris than from Brussels. Not a bad thing, come to think of it.

Besides, would a French farmer be willing to subsidize a Hungarian farmer and give up his competitive edge?

[Kontra1]

Turkey Never really had snowballs chance in Hell of joining EU as a full member this vote really is just the first step in stateing that fact.

Wrong! we are actually the winners here... woot

As a matter of fact,we're the double winners of this out come.First of all, we will now get rid of the ruling gov't which was preperad to risk our national interests during the accession talks and for seconds,we won't have to go through these talks now that it's more obvious it won't lead to any membership...This is JUST GREAT!!! woot woot woot

Kontra1

[Skullknight]

We all have to learn what other countries have to deal with: listen to your peasants or die.

[Kilgor]

?????????

All I know is that the French would rather be governed from Paris than from Brussels. Not a bad thing, come to think of it.

Besides, would a French farmer be willing to subsidize a Hungarian farmer and give up his competitive edge?


Dont you think something should be done about the flatlining economy of old europe though ?

10% unemployment, 35 hour weeks and extremely generous social security may be comfortable now, but in a globalised world its going to be a death sentance.

[hughdotoh]

Dont you think something should be done about the flatlining economy of old europe though ?

10% unemployment, 35 hour weeks and extremely generous social security may be comfortable now, but in a globalised world its going to be a death sentance.

Something killed the competitive edge of old europe, i reckon it to be the angst of having too many people on the dole.

welfare encourages laziness and ruins dynamism.

the east europeans want to prove that they can be as good as the west, so they are working hard to prove it. the westerners figure they haven't anything else to prove anymore other than being culturally better than the "mongrel americans", so they just piss and moan about yankee hegemony instead of getting to work.

[tony6]

VIVA LA FRANCE!
;)

[Mirage]

Fortunately that there are the Breton ones which voted for yes....... :roll:
Vive la Bretagne et les Bretons!!! woot

Referendum : Vote Chart Map
http://medias.lemonde.fr/mmpub/edt/ill/2005/05/30/h_3_ill_655536_oui_non_referendum.jpg

[roland]

Fortunately that there are the Breton ones which voted for yes....... :roll:
Vive la Bretagne et les Bretons!!! woot

Referendum : Vote Chart Map
http://medias.lemonde.fr/mmpub/edt/ill/2005/05/30/h_3_ill_655536_oui_non_referendum.jpg

.. et vive le Rhone, l'Alsace et la Savoie woot

[strange: that is the one that pay for the others]

[TheBelgian]

this big decisions shouldn't be take by the people and, as we can see now, by the stupid man who defend their interets and only them.
the europe is not for this old mans as Villier or Le Pen, it's for us, the new young.

Chirac have, i think, see the problem and the benefits of a Europe, the Europe.
It would show the democracy of the France and give the voice to the people, it's was a good thing and an error , because there have no come-back now.
We should not do a referendum for that. :|
???????????In a DemocracY World?? really????

I agree with sharp. Who the hell is stupid enough to let the public decide on an issue like this? I bet 80% of the people who voted on the constitution today didnt have the first clue about its content. It was basically a battle over which side could launch the best propaganda campaign. France did not vote on the consitution, they only used this opportunity to show their discontentement with the current french domestic situation. At the same dealing a heavy blow to European integration... Goddamn Chiraq for being stupid enough to hold a referendum. Descisions of this weight and complexity should be left to government officials who know what they're doing.
Indeed. Why should the people be allowed to vote on a Consitution that would, directly or otherwise, speed up the loss of our cultural identities, and create an avenue to bring about a centralized government, which by its very nature undermines the sovereignty of the nations bound to it? Ever heard of democracy? Really, the age of Absolute Monarchs is long gone. Maybe they should've just left the decision to the parliaments, with votes being bought as in an auction right up until the day of the vote.

You mention the fact that most people didn't understand the concept of the Constitution. For it to be universally understood, it should've been much more concise and precise. Either way, Europe has far too many of its own problems(social, economic) to shoulder the burden of integrating itself further; of dubious worth at any rate.

Descisions of this weight and complexity should be left to government officials who know what they're doing
Right, give more power to our wise, government officials, who can do no wrong. After all, it's only the future of Europe, and there's only one correct decision. Really, I can't believe nobody else on this forum has ripped this person a new one yet.

Maybe no one else on the forum has "ripped me a new one yet" because they can look beyond the democracy-uber-alles crap, and really look at the issue, insead of being tied down by the democratic dogma that seems to afflict you. And that issue is that the majority of the population did not know what they were voting on, and were just voting according to the propaganda they heard. I mean, i'm studying politcal sceince at my University, and i dont even think that I know enough to be able to make a fair descision on this issue. The public is in no position to decide on this constiution. Your argument was that maybe the consitution should be more concise. Like in the USA? Where the supreme court constantly has to make judgement calls on the proper interpretation of their bill of right and consitution. It is unrealisitc to suggest that one could creat a simple and consise constitution for something as complex as the European Union.

I stand by my point, that the governemnts should have decided this. Thanks for backing my point up by saying that "the age of Absolute Monarchs is long gone." You are right, these arent monarchs. These are elected officials, chosen by the people to make governmental descisions for the people. People elected them, now they should trust them to do what's best. Why on earth should the people have to express their opinion explicitely on this particular issue, when they cant do so on any other issues?

What really exasperates me here is that most of the french people i've heard from so far voted no because they did not want France to lose power. Pretty ironic, because if the consitution does go through, France's power will actually increase, because country size would be taken into account when alloting votes, and France's voting power would go from 9% to 13%. I guess it just goes to show that the people really didnt know what they were voting on...

[tooms]

Few countries organize a referendum. Holland will surely reject [/b]this[b] constitution like British. There is something wrong in EU and we must rethink it.

I don't want to hate east european countries tomorrow because they are cheaper than us.

Fear->anger->pain->suffering->Dark Side. p-)

[Inconnu]

The Prime Minister will be can be to replace by Dominique de Villepin or Sarkozy

(Ca ce dit comme ca premier ministre en anglais ?)


Villepin
http://eur.news1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/xp/afpji/20050530/050530091603.7nlpv1a12b.jpg

Sarkozy
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/metasystems/Images/Sarkozy_rageur.jpg

[stephane from Paris]

Nice! people spoke and very well!
Nearly every french received the text and lot of them read it, talk about it! 2 months of talks (TV, newspapers, radios...), people choose you don't have the right (frenchies here) to insult them!
Which countries in UE did that? That's the most democratic act from dozens years.
The actual UE constitution is enough, it's works not so bad and the economic crisis isn't due to internal affairs but world situations (wars/prices of oil...).

"1871
les parisiens sont humiliés
par la défaite, et la colère
se lit dans leurs yeux fatigués

Plein de mépris pour tous ces gens
les députés ont foutus le camp
car pour ces courageux notables
la France est toujours négociable

Mais le peuple de Paris
aujourd'hui s'est soulevé
les politiciens ont trahis
pas question de capituler
partout dans la capitale
on dresse des baricades
on met en batterie des canons
partout c'est l'insurection
(...)
refrain
LES PAUVRES GENS N'ONT PLUS RIEN
LA PATRIE EST LEUR SEUL BIEN
ILS CREVENT POUR TE RAPPELER
L'ESPRIT DE COMMUNAUTE"

Lyrics VAE VICTIS

[Clearday-TRForce]

USA-CHINA-RUSSIA-TURKEY thanks Frenchs for "NO" vote. ;)
do you know why?

[Inconnu]

USA-CHINA-RUSSIA-TURKEY thanks Frenchs for "NO" vote. ;)
do you know why?

rofl

Parce que t'es con

[Clearday-TRForce]

USA-CHINA-RUSSIA-TURKEY thanks Frenchs for "NO" vote. ;)
do you know why?

rofl

Parce que t'es con

rofl

[Inconnu]

USA-CHINA-RUSSIA-TURKEY thanks Frenchs for "NO" vote. ;)
do you know why?

rofl

Parce que t'es con

rofl

En voila la preuve :cantbeli:

[achilles]

USA-CHINA-RUSSIA-TURKEY thanks Frenchs for "NO" vote. ;)
do you know why?

rofl

Parce que t'es con

rofl

En voila la preuve :cantbeli:

Hey got the plan? Those two memet Mustafa's here are giving their best shot to look as stupid as possible so that Europe rejects their backward buttocks. They dont need to pretend though... :lol:

[Clearday-TRForce]

have u got a problem with M.K.Ataturk? rofl

[achilles]

have u got a problem with M.K.Ataturk? rofl

http://images.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/review/games/_photos/monkey-brains.jpg

:petting:

[Jehuty]

Fortunately that there are the Breton ones which voted for yes....... :roll:
Vive la Bretagne et les Bretons!!! woot

Referendum : Vote Chart Map
http://medias.lemonde.fr/mmpub/edt/ill/2005/05/30/h_3_ill_655536_oui_non_referendum.jpg

.. et vive le Rhone, l'Alsace et la Savoie woot

[strange: that is the one that pay for the others]

I think it's safe to say that the Bas-Rhin voted yes because of the European parliement in Strasbourg. I have troubles to understand why the north-west voted yes overwhelmingly though.

[Knutsen]

this big decisions shouldn't be take by the people and, as we can see now, by the stupid man who defend their interets and only them.
the europe is not for this old mans as Villier or Le Pen, it's for us, the new young.

Chirac have, i think, see the problem and the benefits of a Europe, the Europe.
It would show the democracy of the France and give the voice to the people, it's was a good thing and an error , because there have no come-back now.
We should not do a referendum for that. :|
???????????In a DemocracY World?? really????

I agree with sharp. Who the hell is stupid enough to let the public decide on an issue like this? I bet 80% of the people who voted on the constitution today didnt have the first clue about its content. It was basically a battle over which side could launch the best propaganda campaign. France did not vote on the consitution, they only used this opportunity to show their discontentement with the current french domestic situation. At the same dealing a heavy blow to European integration... Goddamn Chiraq for being stupid enough to hold a referendum. Descisions of this weight and complexity should be left to government officials who know what they're doing.

I agree 100%. That's the beauty of parlamentary democracy, we choose some of us to represent us, that's why parliaments exitst.
When the referendum took place in Spain around 80% had no ****ing clue of what they were voting for. It was surprising the amount of old people who came to vote for their party instead of for their ideas. I remember an old man who asked us:
-"I want to vote for Zapatero"
-"But sir, we are not voting for PSOE or PP , we are voting to ratify the constitution, we have to vote yes or no"
-"But i want to vote for ZP"
-"Sorry sir, you have to vote yes or no (or blank)".
-"So , whats Zapatero voting?"
-"PP and PSOE are voting Yes and IU is voting NO"
-"But i don't want to vote for PP!!!!! "


And the conversation kept going for 5 minutes. I can guarantee you is not the only case, and these are the most notable cases, there are thousands others who vote the same way but don't ask.

Btw i'm really disappointed by the results. If only people could vote for what they are being asked for instead for their leaders.....

[Shadow]

I'm very happy, i did not want to see my country ruled by other countries, even if they are neighbours.

France is still an independant country and this is a good thing in my point of view.

rofl :bash:
Ask some bavarian guy if he's german he'll say "yes".
Then ask him if he's bavarian he'll say yes too...
Get it?!

In a United Europe you would have the european citizenship but you're french. I've a german citizenship but i'm a rhinelander.

[Vivelamorte]

Hello,

I am completely depressed ...

About 85% of the French voted, nice.

46% of the people said the main reason to vote no was because of the unemployment adn the innner politics ... they voted rather against our government although this was not the question which was asked.

60% of the socialists voted no, like all the other leftists (communists and other revolutionary extreme left), as well as the extreme right wing (FN) ... what a nice and coherent mix isn't it ?

In the right parties (UMP and UDF) 75% of the people voted yes.

IMHO this is bad for France and for Europe. It can weaken both of them. It's not a no to Europe, France will no go out of Europe but I am very sad tonight. We will see what will happen in other countries since the consultation about the yes or no to the constitution has still to take place in many other ones (The Netherlands, Poland, United Kingdom etc.)
If we had only voted in our parliament like most of the previous countries did we would have ended with 85% yes or more ... Of course the referendum is more democratic ... but well I can't feel happy and I am rather anxious for the future right know. This might slow down the Europe of the defense etc.

If really Europe as it was proposed is rejected by other countries I hope we could end with perhaps a more federalist model. A Europe of Nations working together rather than a big Europe mixing all the countries. But this will proabably take a generation more.

David


Hi!

The easiest thing is not to have the population vote, as here in Germany. Keeps things easy. :lol:

Anyway, I was on a field trip to the Netherlands last week, and it was interesting to see that each single party in parliament - be it the Greens, social democrats, conservatives & wotnot - are all for the Constitution. The billboards are plastered with party posters saying "Vote Yes". Unfortuanately, the Dutch seem that they don't want to, because of similar reasons to the French.

The government had a "Grondwetkrant" lying around everywhere, which translate to "Constitution Newspaper". The paper featured all paragraphs & articles of the EU Constitution. Hopefully some people read it, thought about it, and saw it wasn't a thing to be afraid of.

People who don't vote for Europe are idiots. Someone ought to slap them and tell them they're voting against not only Europe, but also against the unity of all European countries, peace & prosperity and that their "nay" is a disgrace in the face of those that fell on all sides in the wars which shattered Europe, which to avoid in the future the EU was founded.

[roland]

Nice! people spoke and very well!
Nearly every french received the text and lot of them read it, talk about it! 2 months of talks (TV, newspapers, radios...), people choose you don't have the right (frenchies here) to insult them!
Which countries in UE did that? That's the most democratic act from dozens years.


speak of a debate

- The commies, Fascists or brainwashed semi-illiterates: "We are going to vote NO because this constitution is Ultra liberal !
- Chirac: No, you're wrong, this constitution is communist enough you can vote YES



The actual UE constitution is enough, it's works not so bad and the economic crisis isn't due to internal affairs but world situations (wars/prices of oil...).


The current system will not work with 25 members.
And when you say that the economic crisis isn't due to internal affairs, that really show that there is not more blind that the one that don't want to see. Now explain me:
- why is it in the EU that the growth is the slower in the world ?
- why is it in the EU that the unemployment is the higher in the world ?
- why UK's GDP was 30% lower than French one 30 years ago and now equivalent but growing much faster despite all the handicap they have because they are not a Republic ?

Answer: because most of Europe has socialist structures.



"1871
les parisiens sont humiliés
par la défaite, et la colère
se lit dans leurs yeux fatigués

Plein de mépris pour tous ces gens
les députés ont foutus le camp
car pour ces courageux notables
la France est toujours négociable

Mais le peuple de Paris
aujourd'hui s'est soulevé
les politiciens ont trahis
pas question de capituler
partout dans la capitale
on dresse des baricades
on met en batterie des canons
partout c'est l'insurection
(...)
refrain
LES PAUVRES GENS N'ONT PLUS RIEN
LA PATRIE EST LEUR SEUL BIEN
ILS CREVENT POUR TE RAPPELER
L'ESPRIT DE COMMUNAUTE"

Lyrics VAE VICTIS

spare us your communist propaganda. The Communists rebels had been crushed by the army and that was a good thing. After that we had 40 years of the purest Republican regime France ever had: from 1870 to 1914, where we united the nation, fought illetrism and religion's oppression, and prepared for the WWI victory and have Alsace and Loraine back home. That was the good time when the Republican ideal wasn't polluted by socialism. Now in school our children spend more time speaking of the Commune insurection than the 1789 Revolution. Small wonder we are brainwashed and have No clue on how things work.
French think that to have something we just have to open a big mouth and shout in the road or break everything or block the trains or piss the most possible the people. But you'll soon be able to shout and cry all you want you'll have nothing: there is no more money. The baby boomers took everything, and let a debt of 1000 billion Euro. Tough time ahead, specially for the commies the civil servants and other parasites. :fork:

[Mamon]

this big decisions shouldn't be take by the people and, as we can see now, by the stupid man who defend their interets and only them.
the europe is not for this old mans as Villier or Le Pen, it's for us, the new young.

Chirac have, i think, see the problem and the benefits of a Europe, the Europe.
It would show the democracy of the France and give the voice to the people, it's was a good thing and an error , because there have no come-back now.
We should not do a referendum for that. :|
???????????In a DemocracY World?? really????

I agree with sharp. Who the hell is stupid enough to let the public decide on an issue like this? I bet 80% of the people who voted on the constitution today didnt have the first clue about its content. It was basically a battle over which side could launch the best propaganda campaign. France did not vote on the consitution, they only used this opportunity to show their discontentement with the current french domestic situation. At the same dealing a heavy blow to European integration... Goddamn Chiraq for being stupid enough to hold a referendum. Descisions of this weight and complexity should be left to government officials who know what they're doing.
Indeed. Why should the people be allowed to vote on a Consitution that would, directly or otherwise, speed up the loss of our cultural identities, and create an avenue to bring about a centralized government, which by its very nature undermines the sovereignty of the nations bound to it? Ever heard of democracy? Really, the age of Absolute Monarchs is long gone. Maybe they should've just left the decision to the parliaments, with votes being bought as in an auction right up until the day of the vote.

You mention the fact that most people didn't understand the concept of the Constitution. For it to be universally understood, it should've been much more concise and precise. Either way, Europe has far too many of its own problems(social, economic) to shoulder the burden of integrating itself further; of dubious worth at any rate.

Descisions of this weight and complexity should be left to government officials who know what they're doing
Right, give more power to our wise, government officials, who can do no wrong. After all, it's only the future of Europe, and there's only one correct decision. Really, I can't believe nobody else on this forum has ripped this person a new one yet.

Maybe no one else on the forum has "ripped me a new one yet" because they can look beyond the democracy-uber-alles crap, and really look at the issue, insead of being tied down by the democratic dogma that seems to afflict you. And that issue is that the majority of the population did not know what they were voting on, and were just voting according to the propaganda they heard. I mean, i'm studying politcal sceince at my University, and i dont even think that I know enough to be able to make a fair descision on this issue. The public is in no position to decide on this constiution. Your argument was that maybe the consitution should be more concise. Like in the USA? Where the supreme court constantly has to make judgement calls on the proper interpretation of their bill of right and consitution. It is unrealisitc to suggest that one could creat a simple and consise constitution for something as complex as the European Union.

I stand by my point, that the governemnts should have decided this. Thanks for backing my point up by saying that "the age of Absolute Monarchs is long gone." You are right, these arent monarchs. These are elected officials, chosen by the people to make governmental descisions for the people. People elected them, now they should trust them to do what's best. Why on earth should the people have to express their opinion explicitely on this particular issue, when they cant do so on any other issues?

What really exasperates me here is that most of the french people i've heard from so far voted no because they did not want France to lose power. Pretty ironic, because if the consitution does go through, France's power will actually increase, because country size would be taken into account when alloting votes, and France's voting power would go from 9% to 13%. I guess it just goes to show that the people really didnt know what they were voting on...
According to your logic then, people aren't informed enough to even properly vote for government officials. People should express their opinions, because if they don't then someone else will do it for them, and it's a slippery slope that leads to more power in the hands of fewer people. And if one actively furthers this type of government, then you truly get what you deserve. This isn't a bill dealing with a convoluted tax system or the intricacies of social services, but of the very nature of Europe's political future. If the people of Europe should not be involved in so crucial an issue because they aren't properly informed, then how can we trust the decisions of government officials, also elected by the same misinformed people?

anyways, this post has become real long and convoluted with the quotes.

[moughoun]

well,I look it it like this, in 20 year's when we're all in the toilet because we neither have the economic size nor political ability to talk to the US China and perhap's India as an equal, I'll look at all those Communist's and nationalist's (there won't be much of a nation for them to be martyr's for :| ) and with a straight face say, we had our chance, and you f.cuked it up playing petty politic's with the fate of 500 million people, I just have one thing to say to all the Little Englander's and Little France ect, what is all that nationalist pride going to do for you, in the future, you think anyone's going to listen to you?, there will be cities in India and Chian with 45-50 million people, why should they care what a bunch of insignificant little countries have to say, it'll be a world of giant "hyperpowers" and we'll be the little ant's trying not to get stepped on, an entire continent of Switzerland's :| all we're going to be is a quaint museum for Chinese tourist's, it was clear last night though, they talked to a man about why he voted no, he said because he wanted France to be strong.....naieve :roll: I'm proud to be Irish, but I'm also not stupid, pride won't get us far...............but democracy at work,it's done and dusted, sorry for the rant :oops:

[achilles]

well,I look it it like this, in 20 year's when we're all in the toilet because we neither have the economic size nor political ability to talk to the US China and perhap's India as an equal, I'll look at all those Communist's and nationalist's (there won't be much of a nation for them to be martyr's for :| ) and with a straight face say, we had our chance, and you f.cuked it up playing petty politic's with the fate of 500 million people, I just have one thing to say to all the Little Englander's and Little France ect, what is all that nationalist pride going to do for you, in the future, you think anyone's going to listen to you?, there will be cities in India and Chian with 45-50 million people, why should they care what a bunch of insignificant little countries have to say, it'll be a world of giant "hyperpowers" and we'll be the little ant's trying not to get stepped on, an entire continent of Switzerland's :| all we're going to be is a quaint museum for Chinese tourist's, it was clear last night though, they talked to a man about why he voted no, he said because he wanted France to be strong.....naieve :roll: I'm proud to be Irish, but I'm also not stupid, pride won't get us far...............but democracy at work,it's done and dusted, sorry for the rant :oops:

Fantastic post mough!

[thalia]

Fortunately that there are the Breton ones which voted for yes....... :roll:
Vive la Bretagne et les Bretons!!! woot

Referendum : Vote Chart Map
http://medias.lemonde.fr/mmpub/edt/ill/2005/05/30/h_3_ill_655536_oui_non_referendum.jpg
vive le Finistere woot

http://membres.lycos.fr/planetdune/Humour/france_constit.jpg


Who do you think is gonna be the next Prime Minister? De Villepin? Sarkozy?

[roland]

well,I look it it like this, in 20 year's when we're all in the toilet because we neither have the economic size nor political ability to talk to the US China and perhap's India as an equal, I'll look at all those Communist's and nationalist's (there won't be much of a nation for them to be martyr's for :| ) and with a straight face say, we had our chance, and you f.cuked it up playing petty politic's with the fate of 500 million people, I just have one thing to say to all the Little Englander's and Little France ect, what is all that nationalist pride going to do for you, in the future, you think anyone's going to listen to you?, there will be cities in India and Chian with 45-50 million people, why should they care what a bunch of insignificant little countries have to say, it'll be a world of giant "hyperpowers" and we'll be the little ant's trying not to get stepped on, an entire continent of Switzerland's :| all we're going to be is a quaint museum for Chinese tourist's, it was clear last night though, they talked to a man about why he voted no, he said because he wanted France to be strong.....naieve :roll: I'm proud to be Irish, but I'm also not stupid, pride won't get us far...............but democracy at work,it's done and dusted, sorry for the rant :oops:

Fantastic post mough!

yeah well said

[thalia]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[roland]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

mais encore ? :|

[descoqs]

well,I look it it like this, in 20 year's when we're all in the toilet because we neither have the economic size nor political ability to talk to the US China and perhap's India as an equal, I'll look at all those Communist's and nationalist's (there won't be much of a nation for them to be martyr's for :| ) and with a straight face say, we had our chance, and you f.cuked it up playing petty politic's with the fate of 500 million people, I just have one thing to say to all the Little Englander's and Little France ect, what is all that nationalist pride going to do for you, in the future, you think anyone's going to listen to you?, there will be cities in India and Chian with 45-50 million people, why should they care what a bunch of insignificant little countries have to say, it'll be a world of giant "hyperpowers" and we'll be the little ant's trying not to get stepped on, an entire continent of Switzerland's :| all we're going to be is a quaint museum for Chinese tourist's, it was clear last night though, they talked to a man about why he voted no, he said because he wanted France to be strong.....naieve :roll: I'm proud to be Irish, but I'm also not stupid, pride won't get us far...............but democracy at work,it's done and dusted, sorry for the rant :oops:

Fantastic post mough!

yeah well said


I fully disagree with this.
I'm not saying that this no vote is a solution, of course, it's not.

But when you talk about hyperpower, you're completely wrong. It's an idea of the past century, except for america. But the US aren't a "hyperpower", they are a post-modernistic Empire ( look at the film Starship troopers to get an idea of what I'm talking about ) and there's only one place available for such an empire in the whole world.
No one will be a "hyperpower", neither India nor China, of course not suicidal muslim "oumma", and they will soon experience as well strong economic problems, because of too fast economic growth that will lead to a violent crash.

THE problem, as the brits point rightly out saying thanks to french for having shot down this Europe as Brussel's Elite wanted to build up, is that this constitution was a french model for Europe and so a bad thing.

The century to come will be "multilateral" and not "multipolar".
This will be the century of "small is beautifull".
Just look who's in good shape in Europe : Norway, UK. They have their own money, their own policies, polarized economical models and everything's working well.

[Kontra1]

USA-CHINA-RUSSIA-TURKEY thanks Frenchs for "NO" vote. ;)
do you know why?

rofl

Parce que t'es con

Bunu ingilizce yazacak göt yok herhalde bu fransiz finosunda rofl

Kontra1

[moughoun]

well,I look it it like this, in 20 year's when we're all in the toilet because we neither have the economic size nor political ability to talk to the US China and perhap's India as an equal, I'll look at all those Communist's and nationalist's (there won't be much of a nation for them to be martyr's for :| ) and with a straight face say, we had our chance, and you f.cuked it up playing petty politic's with the fate of 500 million people, I just have one thing to say to all the Little Englander's and Little France ect, what is all that nationalist pride going to do for you, in the future, you think anyone's going to listen to you?, there will be cities in India and Chian with 45-50 million people, why should they care what a bunch of insignificant little countries have to say, it'll be a world of giant "hyperpowers" and we'll be the little ant's trying not to get stepped on, an entire continent of Switzerland's :| all we're going to be is a quaint museum for Chinese tourist's, it was clear last night though, they talked to a man about why he voted no, he said because he wanted France to be strong.....naieve :roll: I'm proud to be Irish, but I'm also not stupid, pride won't get us far...............but democracy at work,it's done and dusted, sorry for the rant :oops:

Fantastic post mough!

yeah well said


I fully disagree with this.
I'm not saying that this no vote is a solution, of course, it's not.

But when you talk about hyperpower, you're completely wrong. It's an idea of the past century, except for america. But the US aren't a "hyperpower", they are a post-modernistic Empire ( look at the film Starship troopers to get an idea of what I'm talking about ) and there's only one place available for such an empire in the whole world.
No one will be a "hyperpower", neither India nor China, of course not suicidal muslim "oumma", and they will soon experience as well strong economic problems, because of too fast economic growth that will lead to a violent crash.

THE problem, as the brits point rightly out saying thanks to french for having shot down this Europe as Brussel's Elite wanted to build up, is that this constitution was a french model for Europe and so a bad thing.

The century to come will be "multilateral" and not "multipolar".
This will be the century of "small is beautifull".
Just look who's in good shape in Europe : Norway, UK. They have their own money, their own policies, polarized economical models and everything's working well.
so you subscribe to that rather wishful thinking that somehow China and to a lesser extent India won't become superpower's? and what else is a 1 billion+ population superpower but a hyperpower? I'm not using that in the French context but in shear overall power, people have been predicting a Chinese crash since the late 80's, and isn't it ironic that in France the consitution was too "anglo-saxon" eg toeconomically liberal, while in the UK it's too French, :roll:



The century to come will be "multilateral" and not "multipolar".
This will be the century of "small is beautifull".
Just look who's in good shape in Europe : Norway, UK. They have their own money, their own policies, polarized economical models and everything's working well

now that's just wishful thinking, "Multilateral" what exactly is any country that's not big enough, do if the others set a policy, whine at the UN?, small has never been beautiful in a political sense, sure Switzerland or Norway are nice place's, but who care's what they have to say on anything?, I don't know about you but I've never seen the US or anyone else disuded from doing anything by what Portugal had to say on it, Norway is unusual has it has large oil field's to sustain it, the UK has sold alot of it's independence anyway by entrenchig itself in the US economy and increasingly the Asian one, but do you honestly think that the UK has any say in how the US or Asian economy is governed?....no, the UK Eurosceptic's keep trotting out this line about seeding soveringhty to the EU, yet they'll happily do it to Washington where they have no say :roll: look at my Country, we're held up as the success case for the EU, through the EU is the only way our voice on anything is heard, the reason we get good trade deal's is that the EU is counted as one while in negotiatian's, giving us equalweight to the big countries, with out that we'd all be little minnow's trying to deal with whale's p-), you seem to be in this "utopian" we'll all live under someone else's benevolent rule, I say f,uck that, I want to be a big dog too, call that harsh but I'm a realist

[roland]

@descoqs
woa ! post-modernistic Empire ??
you're looking too far I'm affraid.
Lets do it step by step will you ?
- first step: manage to be able to defend against American post-modernistic Empire, Chinese superpower or suicidal muslim "oumma" by ourselves if they try to F**** us,
- second step: err ... will see. At least the post-modernistic Empire will respect us at this stage if we did the first step correctly.

[moughoun]

descoqs, ask any American here, what they would prefer, to be the US as it is now, a military superpower, that shape's the planet, the "top dog" if you will, or a US like Switzerland, nice friendly, doesn't bother anyone, but that no one really care's to ask it's oppionion about anything or take's any notice of it?

[Oddbod]

Here's why I think the present model for a future European "Super State" is the wrong one:

"UK Economic Overview

The UK is the worlds fourth largest economy and has weathered the recent economic downturn better than any other G8 country.

The UK Governments economic strategy aims to improve growth and employment by creating economic stability based on low inflation and prudent government borrowing, and a better environment for long-term investment in industry, infrastructure, science and technology, and education and training.

Britains economy is based primarily on private enterprise which accounts for approximately four-fifths of both output and employment. Since the global recession of 1990 – 1992 the UK has experienced continuous growth and low inflation. Employment levels are the highest ever recorded.

The UK is Europes leading business center and has the least restricted business environment within the EU."

Perhaps those who are planning for the future ought to look at the UK economy for inspiration?

[moughoun]

Here's why I think the present model for a future European "Super State" is the wrong one:

"UK Economic Overview

The UK is the worlds fourth largest economy and has weathered the recent economic downturn better than any other G8 country.

The UK Governments economic strategy aims to improve growth and employment by creating economic stability based on low inflation and prudent government borrowing, and a better environment for long-term investment in industry, infrastructure, science and technology, and education and training.

Britains economy is based primarily on private enterprise which accounts for approximately four-fifths of both output and employment. Since the global recession of 1990 – 1992 the UK has experienced continuous growth and low inflation. Employment levels are the highest ever recorded.

The UK is Europes leading business center and has the least restricted business environment within the EU."

Perhaps those who are planning for the future ought to look at the UK economy for inspiration?
I couldn't agree more with that, listening to some of the comment's from the no camp, made me laugh, they seem to live in this fantasy land where money for massive social welfare programmes just appear's out of no where, eveything will turn out great if we all just work 1 week a year and tax businesses 150% tax :roll: :cantbeli: it was frustrating as hell hearing some of that wishwashy crap, now I have an idea why american's call us communist's, listening to these people that's exactly what they sounded like, no basis in economic fact at all, just pie in the sky utopian drival :bash:

[descoqs]

@descoqs
woa ! post-modernistic Empire ??
you're looking too far I'm affraid.
Lets do it step by step will you ?
- first step: manage to be able to defend against American post-modernistic Empire, Chinese superpower or suicidal muslim "oumma" by ourselves if they try to F**** us,
- second step: err ... will see. At least the post-modernistic Empire will respect us at this stage if we did the first step correctly.

Those who talk of chinese or India as superpower are wrong, I maintain it.
The only power will be the USA since they will have a REAL control WORLD on the free-market we are living in, what Dantec calls the " COSMOS INCORPORATED".
Americans rather than chinese will run the new technologies. Americans have the best high-tech military equipments and it will remain like for a while.
But they also control the market ( New-York stock exchange ), the monet ( dollar ), and lots of industrial stuff like petroleum best technologies...

When I say small is beautifull, I mean when you are small and wealthy, if you want to be heard, you have to defend your interrests through a coalition rather than a technocratic stuff like Brussel's EU.

That's what the UK did during the iraqi war, Chirac prefered to speak of an Paris-Berlin-Moscow axis that died within some days because it was so artificial.

The best way to defend youself ?
- be small and wealthy
- take part of coalitions
- Do not oppose USA

And everything will be going well...

The EU as power that would balance USA is an idea of those who didn't understand why the soviet union collapsed.

[Sharp]

rofl

et se mettre au rang de toutou fidèle (UK) ?
en gros fais ce qu'on te dit et ferme la..

[descoqs]

rofl

et se mettre au rang de toutou fidèle (UK) ?
en gros fais ce qu'on te dit et ferme la..

No, if you disagree, just stay home and that's it.
The mistake was to take the lead ( ortry to take the lead ) of an anti-US worldwide front.

Attack stronger than you is always dangerous...

[moughoun]

@descoqs
woa ! post-modernistic Empire ??
you're looking too far I'm affraid.
Lets do it step by step will you ?
- first step: manage to be able to defend against American post-modernistic Empire, Chinese superpower or suicidal muslim "oumma" by ourselves if they try to F**** us,
- second step: err ... will see. At least the post-modernistic Empire will respect us at this stage if we did the first step correctly.

Those who talk of chinese or India as superpower are wrong, I maintain it.
The only power will be the USA since they will have a REAL control WORLD on the free-market we are living in, what Dantec calls the " COSMOS INCORPORATED".
Americans rather than chinese will run the new technologies. Americans have the best high-tech military equipments and it will remain like for a while.
But they also control the market ( New-York stock exchange ), the monet ( dollar ), and lots of industrial stuff like petroleum best technologies...

When I say small is beautifull, I mean when you are small and wealthy, if you want to be heard, you have to defend your interrests through a coalition rather than a technocratic stuff like Brussel's EU.

That's what the UK did during the iraqi war, Chirac prefered to speak of an Paris-Berlin-Moscow axis that died within some days because it was so artificial.

The best way to defend youself ?
- be small and wealthy
- take part of coalitions
- Do not oppose USA

And everything will be going well...

The EU as power that would balance USA is an idea of those who didn't understand why the soviet union collapsed.
are you taking the piss?, so everyone shut up sit down and don't do anything we don't like? :roll: , so because I'm not a citizen of one of the 50 state's, my existence is just arbitery? I'm here because of the good will of the US, look Descog I know you want to be a US citizen, but you can stick that up your arse if you think I'm going to take that patronizing ****, the UK follow's the US because of what Winston Churchill put into word's "alway's stay close to the American", that's British policy, yu might want to check you fact's though, China now set's world commodity prices not the US, China is the US top crediter, who do you think is paying for these war's, the American taxpayer? :roll: and a history book would be usful too, the USSR bankrupted itself in the Arm's race hardlyour situation now is it?

[moughoun]

just realised there are too many spelling mistakes in that post :oops:

[Freibier]

@descoqs
woa ! post-modernistic Empire ??
you're looking too far I'm affraid.
Lets do it step by step will you ?
- first step: manage to be able to defend against American post-modernistic Empire, Chinese superpower or suicidal muslim "oumma" by ourselves if they try to F**** us,
- second step: err ... will see. At least the post-modernistic Empire will respect us at this stage if we did the first step correctly.

Those who talk of chinese or India as superpower are wrong, I maintain it.
The only power will be the USA since they will have a REAL control WORLD on the free-market we are living in, what Dantec calls the " COSMOS INCORPORATED".
Americans rather than chinese will run the new technologies. Americans have the best high-tech military equipments and it will remain like for a while.
But they also control the market ( New-York stock exchange ), the monet ( dollar ), and lots of industrial stuff like petroleum best technologies...

When I say small is beautifull, I mean when you are small and wealthy, if you want to be heard, you have to defend your interrests through a coalition rather than a technocratic stuff like Brussel's EU.

That's what the UK did during the iraqi war, Chirac prefered to speak of an Paris-Berlin-Moscow axis that died within some days because it was so artificial.

The best way to defend youself ?
- be small and wealthy
- take part of coalitions
- Do not oppose USA

And everything will be going well...

The EU as power that would balance USA is an idea of those who didn't understand why the soviet union collapsed.
lol,
lapdog ...

[Sharp]

this man can't be serious :cantbeli:

R.I.A
rest in america and don't return home, this mentality is not our.
"say yes and shut up" .. in wich world do you live?..

[descoqs]

do not oppose USA is just an advise, you're not obliged.

If you want, just try...
But look back during the last century who opposed to the US and what happened to them.

Germany during WW I : Germany was defeated.
Germany during WW II : Germany was defeated.
Japan during WW II : Japan was defeated.
UDSSR during cold War : UDSSR was defeated.
Iraq in 1990 : Iraq was defeated.
Serbia in 1999 : Serbia was prefered to stop conflict.

Do you want to be the next one ?

Just keep in mind that if we european wanted to have a real power, we should have managed stuffs differently since decades...
Now it's just to late to get it right now.
The reality is back !

[descoqs]

this man can't be serious :cantbeli:

R.I.A
rest in america and don't return home, this mentality is not our.
"say yes and shut up" .. in wich world do you live?..

You are for the Yes, you're just a minority today, don't forget.
I don't care of yours comments and if you don't understand, sorry for you but I don't care...

[Sharp]

http://forum-images.hardware.fr/icones/smilies/pt1cable.gif

[Freibier]

Vichy

[roland]

@descoqs: no franckly there is no way you could convince me there. Franckly I have to make an effort not to be shocked. I understand Sharp. Hell is it for this "bright" future of vassals that our ancestors fought and died ?

Also, nobody speak of opposing the US.
It's just a question of being able to defend our interest even when they are not the same than the US ones. That is not a so big deal. As long as the competition is fair and as long as we agree on "life or death" matters, where is the problem ?
The neoconnard that do all there fuss about that just don't support competition, much like in the USSR system.

To finish, may be one day we'll be part of a biger body that include the USA, but that will be like a part of it, NOT like satellites like you (Dantec?) suggest.
first the first step ;)

[descoqs]

Vichy

What's wrong with you ?
Do I call you nazi ?
So stop insult me... :bash:

[moughoun]

do not oppose USA is just an advise, you're not obliged.

If you want, just try...
But look back during the last century who opposed to the US and what happened to them.

Germany during WW I : Germany was defeated.
Germany during WW II : Germany was defeated.
Japan during WW II : Japan was defeated.
UDSSR during cold War : UDSSR was defeated.
Iraq in 1990 : Iraq was defeated.
Serbia in 1999 : Serbia was prefered to stop conflict.

Do you want to be the next one ?

Just keep in mind that if we european wanted to have a real power, we should have managed stuffs differently since decades...
Now it's just to late to get it right now.
The reality is back !
I think we won't take that advice :roll: , WWI the Aliieles were pushing the German's to defeat before the US intervened in 1917, WWII funny all the allies there are forgotten to, especiallty the Russian's who bled Germany dry :roll: , Japan yes, USSR fell through it's own incompentence, the US just kicked the door in at the end,Iraq and Serbia :cantbeli: , superpower's both of them, you seem to be under the delusion that we want to start a war with the US.........why?, what possible benefit could that give us?, if on the other hand you think we shouldn't compete economically then your argument is pointless and naive, and a little arrogant don't you think

[descoqs]

@descoqs: no franckly there is no way you could convince me there. Franckly I have to make an effort not to be shocked. I understand Sharp. Hell is it for this "bright" future of vassals that our ancestors fought and died ?

Also, nobody speak of opposing the US.
It's just a question of being able to defend our interest even when they are not the same than the US ones. That is not a so big deal. As long as the competition is fair and as long as we agree on "life or death" matters, where is the problem ?
The neoconnard that do all there fuss about that just don't support competition, much like in the USSR system.

To finish, may be one day we'll be part of a biger body that include the USA, but that will be like a part of it, NOT like satellites like you (Dantec?) suggest.
first the first step ;)

This organisation already exists, it's the WTO...

Don't see policy with 20th century's mind...
USA see no interrest to include Europe, of course not.

The mission builds the coalition as Rumsfeld says and americans are the only ones to be abble to lead a military coalitions.
About economical issues, we are completely to negociate with any country all around the world to build coalitions to defend our interrests...

I just describe the reality as it is and not as I want it to be.
Of course, we have less power than a century ago but that's life.
Eu-construction as it was built is a no-way and it's the good day to understand it.

[descoqs]

do not oppose USA is just an advise, you're not obliged.

If you want, just try...
But look back during the last century who opposed to the US and what happened to them.

Germany during WW I : Germany was defeated.
Germany during WW II : Germany was defeated.
Japan during WW II : Japan was defeated.
UDSSR during cold War : UDSSR was defeated.
Iraq in 1990 : Iraq was defeated.
Serbia in 1999 : Serbia was prefered to stop conflict.

Do you want to be the next one ?

Just keep in mind that if we european wanted to have a real power, we should have managed stuffs differently since decades...
Now it's just to late to get it right now.
The reality is back !
I think we won't take that advice :roll: , WWI the Aliieles were pushing the German's to defeat before the US intervened in 1917, WWII funny all the allies there are forgotten to, especiallty the Russian's who bled Germany dry :roll: , Japan yes, USSR fell through it's own incompentence, the US just kicked the door in at the end,Iraq and Serbia :cantbeli: , superpower's both of them, you seem to be under the delusion that we want to start a war with the US.........why?, what possible benefit could that give us?, if on the other hand you think we shouldn't compete economically then your argument is pointless and naive, and a little arrogant don't you think

I didn't claim USA won alone but they played each time a major rule in defeating ennemies, especially at the end of WW I and WW II, I can tell you.

I just wanted to point out what can happen when you want to oppose USA ( and really oppose I mean, not only contradict... ).

If you want to be the next one, you're on.

Brits say "What you can't beat, join it..."

[roland]

This organisation already exists, it's the WTO...


- The WTO is a multilateral organization.
- The US HATE multilateral organization. Not only because they tend to become uncontrolable bureaucratic monsters, that's true, that's a risk we have to deal with, no, rather because thay can't do like they want.
- So, why do they accepted the WTO ?
- because they had no choice
- Why they had no choice ?
- because they know that it they try to F*** the EU on trade matter, the EU will F*** them deeper.
So better avoid trade war, so better the WTO than nothing.

Understand ? all is a question of balance of power. That is a natural game and doesn't prevent us to be good friends.

[moughoun]

do not oppose USA is just an advise, you're not obliged.

If you want, just try...
But look back during the last century who opposed to the US and what happened to them.

Germany during WW I : Germany was defeated.
Germany during WW II : Germany was defeated.
Japan during WW II : Japan was defeated.
UDSSR during cold War : UDSSR was defeated.
Iraq in 1990 : Iraq was defeated.
Serbia in 1999 : Serbia was prefered to stop conflict.

Do you want to be the next one ?

Just keep in mind that if we european wanted to have a real power, we should have managed stuffs differently since decades...
Now it's just to late to get it right now.
The reality is back !
I think we won't take that advice :roll: , WWI the Aliieles were pushing the German's to defeat before the US intervened in 1917, WWII funny all the allies there are forgotten to, especiallty the Russian's who bled Germany dry :roll: , Japan yes, USSR fell through it's own incompentence, the US just kicked the door in at the end,Iraq and Serbia :cantbeli: , superpower's both of them, you seem to be under the delusion that we want to start a war with the US.........why?, what possible benefit could that give us?, if on the other hand you think we shouldn't compete economically then your argument is pointless and naive, and a little arrogant don't you think

I didn't claim USA won alone but they played each time a major rule in defeating ennemies, especially at the end of WW I and WW II, I can tell you.

I just wanted to point out what can happen when you want to oppose USA ( and really oppose I mean, not only contradict... ).

If you want to be the next one, you're on.

Brits say "What you can't beat, join it..."
the Irish say "**** **** up", your comparing the US at it's height against countries that were smaller then some US state's, I still don't get why your comparing the US on wartime footing with us, you keep saying don't go against the US, in economic's I'm afraid your too late, the US can't have it every way, on one hand encourage free trade and competiton while on the other have no peer of equal size, the chinese are opposing the US in virtually everything, but when the US need's to deal with NK who do they ask?, save the bogyman stories for the kid's when you get to the US man, they don't fly with me

[descoqs]

I don't tell you it's forbidden to oppose US, I just tell it's not a good idea.
Do you understand the difference ?

To Roland, I just wanted to point out that there is no need to a big political organisation including US and EU. Nobody wants it and since the free market rules ( moreless ) are running, it's enough.

One thing to understand : USA is a projection of Europe, they took with them the idea of Empire and we let it since a long time. That's a shame but that's it. Try to build a Empire only to oppose US and not for internal will is not a good idea.
People jus told you yersteday that prefer to get jobs, even if they stupidly believe in the god state, than to counterbalance US.
Normal people don't care about big policy since life is every day harder for them.

[moughoun]

I don't tell you it's forbidden to oppose US, I just tell it's not a good idea.
Do you understand the difference ?
. I understand it perfectly, you keep saying being economically competative and not going along with the US is bad for us, frankly I'm not worried about what the US can or will do to us, I still don't get what you think it could do, but whatever, my concern is with what goes on here not some weird idea you have that the US can do anything to us, we are not Iraq :roll:

[descoqs]

If you want a example of what's wrong to do, take Hugo Chavez Venezuela who wants to play oil war with US... or Iran who doesn't want to negociate about nuclear plan.
Let's see what will happen with those countries. If things turn wrong, if another war is on the way, then don't oppose US because they do the hard job, that's all I claim.

I just say also that Chirac was so arrogant during the iraqi war claiming all the time for his "multipolar" vision of the world and his arrogance lead to oppose styrongly US, untill asking support from communist China and autocratic Russia. It was not good idea, he should better had shut up, vote no at the UN poll and that's it...
Don't blame US for your own mistakes like it is more and more trendy to do and everything will go right.

[moughoun]

If you want a example of what's wrong to do, take Hugo Chavez Venezuela who wants to play oil war with US... or Iran who doesn't want to negociate about nuclear plan.
Let's see what will happen with those countries. If things turn wrong, if another war is on the way, then don't oppose US because they do the hard job, that's all I claim.

I just say also that Chirac was so arrogant during the iraqi war claiming all the time for his "multipolar" vision of the world and his arrogance lead to oppose styrongly US, untill asking support from communist China and autocratic Russia. It was not good idea, he should better had shut up, vote no at the UN poll and that's it...
Don't blame US for your own mistakes like it is more and more trendy to do and everything will go right.
I haven't made any mistakes :roll: , I'll put money down now that the US won't attack Iran, I offered this bet before, strangely no one wanted to take it up ;) Chirac don't like the man, the french voted him in, bet they wish they hadn't now and one last thing before I go, I'll stop voiceing my oppinion when I'm dead not a moment before, I frankly don't give a **** that you are some wannabe American, that's your thing, don't try and pawn your thing for the US onto me, I like the US I don't want to be American, you seem to see the place as your dream, good for you, that doesn't mean every where else is some sort of hell hole, frankly your thing of everyone shut up and salute the stars and stripes is as arrogant as chirac's ****, hope you get your green card so you no longer have to slum it wth us

[descoqs]

I didn't tell you to salute the stars and stripes flag. I didn't say that US is a heaven and everywhere else is Hell.

I just said that they are doing the hard work no one in Europe wanted to do, especially in the middle-east.

I will ask for american citizenship only if non-european immigrants get french or european ID, because thus citizenship won't mean anything more.

I said you can tell your opinion ( I didn't say you had to shut up ) but it's not a good idea to oppose to them. Remember I'm not american, I just think it's wiser to act like this.
That's it. No arrogance in it...

[Kitsune]

descoqs wrote:
do not oppose USA is just an advise, you're not obliged.

If you want, just try...
But look back during the last century who opposed to the US and what happened to them.

Germany during WW I : Germany was defeated.
Germany during WW II : Germany was defeated.
Japan during WW II : Japan was defeated.
UDSSR during cold War : UDSSR was defeated.
Iraq in 1990 : Iraq was defeated.
Serbia in 1999 : Serbia was prefered to stop conflict.

Do you want to be the next one ?



But what about Vietnam and Cuba? Castro has always opposed the US and he still lives. No cojones this Frenchie...
;)

[descoqs]

But what about Vietnam and Cuba? Castro has always opposed the US and he still lives. No cojones this Frenchie...
;)

In Vietnam, 1 million people have died and there was no real war in Cuba.

But do you think it was really a good thing for them to oppose US ? Do you think it put them in a better shape ? I don't think so.
Concerning Vietnam, we call it a "Pirrhus" victory ( that means the winner is almost also completely destroyed ).

I'm not saying USA are invincible, as every country they can be defeated, I'm saying you have to think for a long time before opposing them as Chirac did.


French "Le monde" newspaper told this morning Chirac could be regarded by the posterity as a "Doctor Folamor" of policy. True in my opinion and especially concerning his opposition to US during Iraqi war but not only of course... We could also talk about Africa, the whole middle-east, his support to so many dictators aso aso...

Old Europe, wake up !

[M4ko]

Chirac prefered to speak of an Paris-Berlin-Moscow axis that died within some days because it was so artificial

There was a such coalition? What was it purpose? Did they sign any official papers, becuase its the first time im seeing this. I Do remeber though RUssia, France and Germany opposing invasion of Iraq along with other countries but whos voice wasn as important.

[descoqs]

Chirac talked a lot about this "Axis". Just to say he took the lead of anti-american-coalition axis, sort of. Its purpose was to oppose to the war in Iraq plan, especially at the UN tribune. Chirac didn't want to be the only one to vote against the war. Nothing was signed of course but it was an example of Chirac's diplomatic and communication genius...

[roland]

Chirac talked a lot about this "Axis". Just to say he took the lead of anti-american-coalition axis, sort of. Its purpose was to oppose to the war in Iraq plan, especially at the UN tribune.


so what ?


Chirac didn't want to be the only one to vote against the war. Nothing was signed of course but it was an example of Chirac's diplomatic and communication genius...

so what ?

[descoqs]

So it was BS... I mean not serious.
there was no axis, no deep alliance, there was only a Chirac seeking for his own "grandeur".

[stephane from Paris]

speak of a debate

- The commies, Fascists or brainwashed semi-illiterates: "We are going to vote NO because this constitution is Ultra liberal !
- Chirac: No, you're wrong, this constitution is communist enough you can vote YES


The current system will not work with 25 members.
And when you say that the economic crisis isn't due to internal affairs, that really show that there is not more blind that the one that don't want to see. Now explain me:
- why is it in the EU that the growth is the slower in the world ?
- why is it in the EU that the unemployment is the higher in the world ?
- why UK's GDP was 30% lower than French one 30 years ago and now equivalent but growing much faster despite all the handicap they have because they are not a Republic ?

Answer: because most of Europe has socialist structures.



spare us your communist propaganda. The Communists rebels had been crushed by the army and that was a good thing. After that we had 40 years of the purest Republican regime France ever had: from 1870 to 1914, where we united the nation, fought illetrism and religion's oppression, and prepared for the WWI victory and have Alsace and Loraine back home. That was the good time when the Republican ideal wasn't polluted by socialism. Now in school our children spend more time speaking of the Commune insurection than the 1789 Revolution. Small wonder we are brainwashed and have No clue on how things work.
French think that to have something we just have to open a big mouth and shout in the road or break everything or block the trains or piss the most possible the people. But you'll soon be able to shout and cry all you want you'll have nothing: there is no more money. The baby boomers took everything, and let a debt of 1000 billion Euro. Tough time ahead, specially for the commies the civil servants and other parasites. :fork:


Rolland, Rolland poor Rolland!
If i'm totally desagree with descoq about foreign politics, i'm totally desagree with you on internal politic and i don't like your way of speaking!

Who are the brainwashed if not you who support politicals who lead the country since 40years????? The same politicals who asked for massive imigration in the 60's, who didn't stop it in the 70's when crisis was here, who received money from companies, who robbed the money of the state, who always said there's no problem of security, who didn't admit that Euro = +10 to 20% of inflation, who didn't help famillies to do more children to save our future socials programs...
who are the semi illetrate? Who are you to give lessons?

-why is in UE that growth is lower?
Because Euro= 1.4 dollars our products cost 40% more than before 2001, undersand now????
Because oil= x2

-England: is this system the new eden? working class people need often to take 2 jobs or works 60 hours /weeks just to live!
No control on littles boss who use illegalls workers, the poor haven't access to hospital.
Notice that from 1995 to 2000 all UE and specially France/Holland/Germany had a very good economy and unemployement
was low it was the same system but none expensive euro at this time.
If euro should return to 1$ or 0.8$ you see the result on our economy!
the truth of today will not be perhaps the truth of tomorrow.

For the Commune events, this time again you show a short view!
The rioters were patriots since they were against the surrending (the main ask was against surrender not for a socialist project)!
The result of 1870: France loose Alsace and Loraine, the attrocious WW1 to retake these territories following by WW2 (Hitler was the sons of WW1 result) which ended to kill our country!

If the traitors who signed, had support the "Communars", we had a chance to escape the 2 WW!
"ils ont tué l'âme des régions
c'est maintenant au tour des nations"
are the lyrics of other song from Vae victis (i suggest you to use Google to know this band)! they're commies? :lol:

You speaks about parasites but i feel that you spend tons of time on this DG do you have a work? Me yes, and not in public, i'm working in a big private company who earn tons of money and where UK financials ask every years for more money and i see every day the damages of ultra capitalism way!

Salutations identitaires
Stephane

[fdt]

i'm working in a big private company who earn tons of money and where UK financials ask every years for more money and i see every day the damages of ultra capitalism way!

StephaneLet me guess... :roll: You work for ALSTOM :roll: ?

[stephane from Paris]

totally wrong sorry! try again.

[roland]

Who are the brainwashed if not you who support politicals who lead the country since 40years?????

Not 40 but rather 30 years of socialism.
I'm the "generation Mitterrand". Our parents were leftists, our teatchers were leftists, we had a socialist president, the journalists are leftist, the intellectual are lftist, don't tell me the people are not brainwashed.
I see it everyday the edoctrinment in action with my childrens in the public school, that are influenced by there leftist teatchers, even leftist program, notably on history book.
The social system cost more than the state budget, around 500 billion Euro. Do you vote for this ? do you control it ? my @ss, it is under the trade union control. This not socialist that ? and for things that are only your own buiness: health, unemployment or retirement are my business. Do you know that when you earn 1000 Euro net, it cost your boss 1800 Euro so there is around 800 Euro that go for health, unemployment, retirements ?
Small wonder people think they earn peanuts and that companies prefer to do business elsewhere.
Now the state: tell me what is the use to vote ? if what the electorate decide fits the civil servant trade union, that means more spending and more advantage for them, it's ok. But if they don't agree, they oppose it by all mean, including quasi insurectional one. F*** who's the boss ? the elected one or the civil servant trade union ? look at the 1995 big strikes, the great moment of all leftists. that was only 6 months after Chirac election.
Hell I even didn't voted for him I was still socialist at this time. But F**** if other win, let them do there policy, all there policy, as long as he respect the Republican principle, they should be able to rule. You oppose with illegal means only if you face fascist, Petain like [btw that was the time the civil servant as a whole were the calmer, not to say a bunch of collaborator, notably in Paris.]
Those 1995 strikes oppened my eyes: c'est pas un quarteron de generaux felon, c'est quelques million de petit capo felon.
Now why don't the people see what is so obvious ? because people are brainwashed and also we all take advantage a way of another of all this waste that is leading us to ruin.



The same politicals who asked for massive imigration in the 60's, who didn't stop it in the 70's when crisis was here, who received money from companies, who robbed the money of the state, who always said there's no problem of security, who didn't admit that Euro = +10 to 20% of inflation, who didn't help famillies to do more children to save our future socials programs...


I don't see what you mean.

for the rest, we are in crisis since more than 20 years, as if a few mistakes, and even it's debatable, about the money value was the main reason.
We are so brainwashed that people find outrageaous when you say the truth that is that companies are here to do business and earn money.
When companies have interest to hire .. they hire. If there is no interest to hire they don't. Simple like that and that explain unemployment. The socialist wankers can turn the problem in all directions, make as many social laws as they want or give as many subsidies for outdated labor intensive low tech business, that will be useless as long as they don't understand that a company must have an interest to hire. We never spent so much to fight unemployment, there never was so many unemployed. Same with poverty. That is the whole socialist logic that is wrong and not based on reality and human nature.



For the Commune events, this time again you show a short view!
The rioters were patriots since they were against the surrending (the main ask was against surrender not for a socialist project)!
The result of 1870: France loose Alsace and Loraine, the attrocious WW1 to retake these territories following by WW2 (Hitler was the sons of WW1 result) which ended to kill our country!
If the traitors who signed, had support the "Communars", we had a chance to escape the 2 WW!


completly wrong. We had been beaten and Paris was besieged and starving. I had an ancestor who was there. There was little way to win the Prussian a conventional way as the army was either destroyed or trapped inside Paris. But there was some remains of the army that has started a war of ambush on Prussian supply lines and there was some garrison regrouping and organizing with the help of the people. A new popular army was on the rise, the Prussians felt the danger and proposed a honorable and acceptable peace to France and left. The commies took advantage of the French state weakness and tried to take the power. Forget the commie propaganda.
You can't deny:
- that the Prussian left the country quickly without too much damage,
- the the regime that followed was the French choice and was one of the best France ever had that was able to fight a win with the allies a much stronger Germany in WWI and take back our dear Alsace and Lorraine. Thinking that we could have beaten the Prussians in 1870 is pure nonsens. That would have been a new bloody 100 years war.



You speaks about parasites but i feel that you spend tons of time on this DG do you have a work? Me yes, and not in public, i'm working in a big private company who earn tons of money and where UK financials ask every years for more money and i see every day the damages of ultra capitalism way!

Salutations identitaires
Stephane

TOTAL ?
I don't see what's wrong with a company that earns tons of money. Why not buy stocks ? you'll earn money too and can influence the company at your little level and see if they invest wisely all there money to earn even more in the future.
Me I'm in the industry and that is a disaster. There is a deep lack of cash. Our customers only survive. Even when they have a lot of work they have no money to invest on machines, let alone R & D. The social system and the states suck too much money. We can't afford that anymore. Stop this suicidal policy and fast while were still have our engineering and technical excellence. Else it will be too late. When an industry go bankrupt it's all a network witch suffer and a know how that disapear that is very difficult to take back.

yes I have a work in a hight tech company that will probably go officially banckrupt next week.

salutations Republicaines
roland

[fdt]

TOTAL ?
Elf, Rhone-Poulenc, Sanofi Aventis... ?

[descoqs]

Roland, just understand that you ( we ) cannot convince them to do what they would have to do to rebuild the country.

I'm glad that we said no to European constitution because now other european countries will understand France is the sick man of Europe and won't follow our sovietic logic. But we unveiled it ourselves and that's a good point, it's honnest.
It unveils a deep crisis and unfortunately there's no solution to it. That's it.

The only thing we can do is to wait for the collapse of the country ( go get a job abroad as so many of us do, already 300,000 french people work in London ). Don't waste your time trying to convince people that they have to adapt to the XXIst century world, they don't want it and they won't want it either untill they won't have lost everything.

It's too late. Mrs Thatcher made reforms at the good time, already 20 years ago and we see the results today.

My personnal strategy : come back with my gun ( and maybe american support, hope so ;) ) for the next civil war in France... that will come sooner rather than later.

[fdt]

My personnal strategy : come back with my gun ( and maybe american support, hope so ;) ) for the next civil war in France... that will come sooner rather than later.

http://img68.echo.cx/img68/3307/descoqs8px.jpg

p-)

[Lokos]

Heh.


Serbia in 1999 : Serbia was prefered to stop conflict.

Yeah... Seven million people vs seven hundred million aren't odds any of us liked, back in '99.

Lokos

[descoqs]

http://img68.echo.cx/img68/3307/descoqs8px.jpg

p-)

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Very good...

[Bluezoo]

Roland, just understand that you ( we ) cannot convince them to do what they would have to do to rebuild the country.

I'm glad that we said no to European constitution because now other european countries will understand France is the sick man of Europe and won't follow our sovietic logic. But we unveiled it ourselves and that's a good point, it's honnest.
It unveils a deep crisis and unfortunately there's no solution to it. That's it.

The only thing we can do is to wait for the collapse of the country ( go get a job abroad as so many of us do, already 300,000 french people work in London ). Don't waste your time trying to convince people that they have to adapt to the XXIst century world, they don't want it and they won't want it either untill they won't have lost everything.

It's too late. Mrs Thatcher made reforms at the good time, already 20 years ago and we see the results today.

My personnal strategy : come back with my gun ( and maybe american support, hope so ;) ) for the next civil war in France... that will come sooner rather than later.

You could ask him because his wife is an American. She could petition him as a direct relative so that he can immigrate in the US and start a new job. It is even possible that he is already living and working the US incognito. :lol:

Oh, congratulations, Roland! Let me see, you are in the minority and you blame those in the majority of your country who voted against the EU Constitution as "brainwashed"? You have this same rhetoric when the news and facts don't suit you. :roll: Kinda paranoid here, huh? Sour grapes? :roll: your republic is ruled by the majority. Vox populi vox dei? You bring to mind the character who said "I see dead people everywhere..." rofl

[Bluezoo]

Here are some cartoons from various artists: Enjoy :lol:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/martin_rowson/2005/05/30/rowson512.jpg
http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/{BA43E6B4-6317-4A38-A6E6-0364EF7105C8}.gif
http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/{83B423EA-7A3D-41A6-B98E-D555870CDAEA}.gif

rofl

[Freibier]

lol, the first one is hilarious :lol:

[Bluezoo]

some more:
http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/{48928C36-1C1B-4373-9637-637742C33665}.gif
http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/{7A812029-78A8-4356-9C56-998C1B30E1D8}.gif
http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/{AA770D87-3F65-4035-8022-9254FE1A1827}.gif

[BadKarma26]

THE EU WILL BE THE NEXT SUPERPOWER!!!!!!!!ONE~~!!!

[achilles]

THE EU WILL BE THE NEXT SUPERPOWER!!!!!!!!ONE~~!!!
http://www.panathagrforum.net/phpbb2/images/smiles/jerkoff.gif

[Clearday-TRForce]

http://www.seppo.net/enviro/chirac.gif
http://www.amitai-notes.com/blog/archives/Chirac%20comic.jpg

Super what? rofl

[Inconnu]

lol

[stephane from Paris]

You can't deny:
- that the Prussian left the country quickly without too much damage,
- the the regime that followed was the French choice and was one of the best France ever had that was able to fight a win with the allies a much stronger Germany in WWI and take back our dear Alsace and Lorraine. Thinking that we could have beaten the Prussians in 1870 is pure nonsens. That would have been a new bloody 100 years war.


TOTAL ?
I don't see what's wrong with a company that earns tons of money. Why not buy stocks ? you'll earn money too and can influence the company at your little level and see if they invest wisely all there money to earn even more in the future.
Me I'm in the industry and that is a disaster. There is a deep lack of cash. Our customers only survive. Even when they have a lot of work they have no money to invest on machines, let alone R & D. The social system and the states suck too much money. We can't afford that anymore. Stop this suicidal policy and fast while were still have our engineering and technical excellence. Else it will be too late. When an industry go bankrupt it's all a network witch suffer and a know how that disapear that is very difficult to take back.



Concerning 1870 war you things that loosing Alsace and Loraine isn't a big shame???? Prussians wasn't enough strong to control all the country, and if the war should be long it's sure that we had win like during Revolution a poor army but well motived did!
I maintains that without the 70 shame the 2 WW should never be!

Concerning economy, i don't want to spend my time writing in english about it!
Just notice that I'm not socialist (even if i voted Chevenement) and i'm in favor of hard control about where the money goes (all socials programs) and if it's justify!
I'm in favor of hard immigration control and that all illegals go home, like foreigners without jobs since a long time: not more than USA or australia do!

But i'm proud that we don't let in the **** ,people who haven't the luck to have a work, to was born in a rich family!


Concerning my company, sorry but i laugh a lot when i read your text!
We never earn so much money, every years our chiefs give biggest objectives but we earn less money every year!
Every years we loose 100 jobs, their work is given to other people and if you're not OK: the door!

Do you really thinks that people will wins? only a few will wins but like in the USA and UK more and more people will be in the ****!
sorry but a society like Brasil isn't my goal!

I'm capitalist , but the ultra capitalism it's:

"ils ont ouvert les frontières
pour partager la misère
engraisser les actionnaires
et mieux baisser ton salaire"

again Vae Victis
Rock identitaire Français

Enough for me

Ps: i'm working for the 28th french money winner company, none of those were said here!

[roland]

Concerning 1870 war you things that loosing Alsace and Loraine isn't a big shame???? Prussians wasn't enough strong to control all the country, and if the war should be long it's sure that we had win like during Revolution a poor army but well motived did!
I maintains that without the 70 shame the 2 WW should never be!


Well I think it has been debated to death, there is no point doing it again here. All what I know is that Alsace and Lorraine never were abandonned
and finally we goet them back home :)



I'm in favor of hard immigration control and that all illegals go home, like foreigners without jobs since a long time: not more than USA or australia do!

at last something we agree.



But i'm proud that we don't let in the **** ,people who haven't the luck to have a work, to was born in a rich family!


Me too. What we do is assisting a lot of people. That is different. And there is private insurance. Social systems should be reserved only for those who can't deal themselves with the risk of life.




Concerning my company, sorry but i laugh a lot when i read your text!
We never earn so much money, every years our chiefs give biggest objectives but we earn less money every year!

I don't understand: you "never earn so much money" then "but we earn less money every year"
This being said, bad management exist too, that is the shareholder's role to fire them. Also, a well managed company don't have to hire 150 employees when 100 can do the job. That is basic economy a few people know.
Also it has never been proven that benevolence is a good motivation to do business. On the contrary, money and love for power are. So this social role of companies are pure brainwashed socialist concepts, that doesn't fit with the human nature. A well balanced system is when personal interest fit with general interest. then no need for cops or laws. A bad system is when personal interest are in contradiction with general interest. Then you have to put a lot of cops or laws and it doesn't work anyway. That is what happen now: the interest is not to invest or do business or hire. That explain delocalisation and unemployment.




Every years we loose 100 jobs, their work is given to other people and if you're not OK: the door!


Why do they give the work for other people ? either they are idiot (that happens) either they earn more working with others. The question is why ?
"if you're not OK: the door!": let me tell you a hard truth that we never hear in our socialist country: the company is the property of the shareholders NOT the property of the employee. The employee are here to make the shareholders earn money. It happens that to earn money they have to hire you so you earn money too. But if they don't need you or if the system make too risky and expensive to hire you, you'll have to find a job elsewhere, that is how it work, and there is nothing you can do except socialism but that doesn't work. When you know and understand the rules of the game, there is nothing wrong with them.



Do you really thinks that people will wins? only a few will wins but like in the USA and UK more and more people will be in the ****!


Of course people win. In the USA and UK a lot win, the system is not perfect but it give work growth, dynamism, hope for there children.
We are not forced to copy them like sheep anyway, we can find our own way. For me Republic and liberalism are the perfect mix like before WWI.



sorry but a society like Brasil isn't my goal!


I thought the movie Brazil was a socialist caricature but well .. nevermind

ciao

[az44zel]

u want arts ?

http://www.gerardkeegan.co.uk/humour/bush_bookincident.jpg

http://www.anvari.org/db/fun/Political/Bush_Binoculars.jpg

so ? lol :D dear George... :cantbeli:

+1 voted NON

[jedisponge]

u want arts ?

http://www.gerardkeegan.co.uk/humour/bush_bookincident.jpg

http://www.anvari.org/db/fun/Political/Bush_Binoculars.jpg

so ? lol :D dear George... :cantbeli:

+1 voted NON
lol.

As funny as that is it has no revalence to the topic.

[stephane from Paris]

I don't understand: you "never earn so much money" then "but we earn less money every year"
This being said, bad management exist too, that is the shareholder's role to fire them. Also, a well managed company don't have to hire 150 employees when 100 can do the job. That is basic economy a few people know.

Why do they give the work for other people ? either they are idiot (that happens) either they earn more working with others. The question is why ?


MY company never earn so much money and WE never earn less money!
The cash goes to the new shareholder. These are here for 7years, in 3 years they will leave with most of the cash!
150 employees who do the job are replaced by 100 who need to work more (all the managerial employees have to work far more than the 48hours limit) , a part of the job are give to little other companies (with lesser salaries)...
Big companies never earn so much money than now but all the salaries go down, who benefit of the ultracapitalism since most of the money goes outside and don't help national economy?
Concerning high managers, they came recently from high schools, they received parts of the company, their interrest isn't the long time but wins tons of money when the company will entered the stock market.

Is the goal of a company to give money to their managers and desapear or to live well and try to earn money to save the future of itself and its workers?

end!

[roland]

The cash goes to the new shareholder. These are here for 7years, in 3 years they will leave with most of the cash!


They want to put the company in the stock market and sell it much more than they buy it and leave with the cash ? what's wrong with that ? they took the risk to buy it at the first place.



150 employees who do the job are replaced by 100 who need to work more (all the managerial employees have to work far more than the 48hours limit) ,..


48 hours isn't a so big deal if the job is interesting.
II agree, it's not a good parctice to take advantage of people's good will for too long though. It can backslash and the management would have nobody to blame except them. Clever unions can serve to explain that to high management that is sometime cut from the employee's reality. Moral of the troops is something important, not for moral reason, but because motivated and happy employees work better. still a question of interest that can lead to good things contrary to what most of the people think here.



.. a part of the job are give to little other companies (with lesser salaries)...


not good for you that. If you are not better, there is nothing that can prevent your company to go to your competitors more and more. Social laws can only slow down the process but too much social laws are overall bad as it make business more difficult to be profitable in France.



Big companies never earn so much money than now but all the salaries go down, who benefit of the ultracapitalism since most of the money goes outside and don't help national economy?


It's true that the one that earn big are the big international company. In fact, most, like TOTAL, earn there money elsewhere than France. That is why they don't invest here and even are closing factories here (they are closing a factory near where I live: LYON)
It is stupid to whine about that, treat them traitors, b@stard or ask for more business regulation that would make things worse. The real question is: why do they earn more money elsewhere than France
Answer this question and they will stay in France.
Concerning the little companies that do there business in France or in socialist low growth EU, they either survive, either go down. That is a disaster. That is all a industrial tradition that is disapearing. Little factories that do spectacles with 5 axis machine tools are replaced by companies that deliver Pizzas. I don't think that's as good for the country. There is not enough cash for the industry. All the cash is suck by .. well yes: mostly parasites.




Is the goal of a company to give money to their managers and desapear or to live well and try to earn money to save the future of itself and its workers?


The shareholder decide. If there interest is to invest do R & D, be innovative and work for the future, that's what they do.
If there interest is to buy the know how and sink the company as it happens more and more, it means that something is rotten in our system. Individual reactions are not determining: businessmen tend to be rational. There is still idiots, that's true, but company ruled by idiots die even in a business friendly system. A kind of Darwinism. Not a big deal if the economy is dynamic, you should find job easilly.