Russian-Afghan War

[ArmedPacifist]

Well I've been thinking about the topic for quite some time now and I've had a question on my mind.

Did the Russian-Afghan war break the soviet union, or did it's capitalist policies break it (perestroika).

[Nite]

Well I've been thinking about the topic for quite some time now and I've had a question on my mind.

Did the Russian-Afghan war break the soviet union, or did it's capitalist policies break it (perestroika).
Well, actually the subject is to complex, to name just one reason for the collapse of the soviet union.

[Vance]

I think in some ways it was, but like Nite said there are many reasons...

[Russian Texan]

The war had very little to do with it. Two biggest factors were:
#1 Russians who traveled abroad came back and told stories abou how every family has 2 cars, several TVs, 300 types of shoes in a store, stripmalls, etc.Unfortunately they forgot to tell about unemployment, crime, drugs in schools, subaverage education, decent healthcare for wealthy only and other great things that come with the western way of life.
#2 USSR would help financialy just about anybody in the world who expressed any sympathy towards communism. At one point economic weight of that help simply was too much.

But most Russians agree on a person to blame - Gorbachev. The man was too weak and not smart enough to control such huge and complicated country as USSR. And as soon as opportunity presented itself republics started to break off. To put it in simple terms:
USSR consisted of 15 republics that had to report to Moscow, all of those republics had local governments. Once control became lose - small bosses decided to become big bosses. It was similar to when large corporation breaks up into multiple small companies.

[ArmedPacifist]

So the war in Afghanistan had little impact? I find this hard to believe.

[96B]

The war had very little to do with it. Two biggest factors were:
#1 Russians who traveled abroad came back and told stories abou how every family has 2 cars, several TVs, 300 types of shoes in a store, stripmalls, etc.Unfortunately they forgot to tell about unemployment, crime, drugs in schools, subaverage education, decent healthcare for wealthy only and other great things that come with the western way of life.
#2 USSR would help financialy just about anybody in the world who expressed any sympathy towards communism. At one point economic weight of that help simply was too much.

But most Russians agree on a person to blame - Gorbachev. The man was too weak and not smart enough to control such huge and complicated country as USSR. And as soon as opportunity presented itself republics started to break off. To put it in simple terms:
USSR consisted of 15 republics that had to report to Moscow, all of those republics had local governments. Once control became lose - small bosses decided to become big bosses. It was similar to when large corporation breaks up into multiple small companies.

You mean to tell me that Russia (then USSR) did not have unemployment, crime, drugs in schools, and subaverage education? Frankly, most of those are the individuals fault so I wouldnt blame the government for everything.

[ShadowNeo]

You mean to tell me that Russia (then USSR) did not have unemployment, crime, drugs in schools, and subaverage education? Frankly, most of those are the individuals fault so I wouldnt blame the government for everything.

Actually, the communist government's main aim was to give everyone a "fairer, more equal" life. During the USSR, unemployment was non-existent as everyone who needed jobs were given jobs, and were guaranteed payment for their work. This inevitably however resulted in firms and companys taking on much more employees than they really needed, and it was common to have employees simply standing around for lack of work to do. Crime and drugs were of course still around back then, but with everyone more or less on the same step of the social ladder, it was far less than what it probably is now.

The main downfall of the USSR in my opinion was the way it operated economically. As it was a "command economy" the government would try to predict what consumers needed and wanted, and would produce those items as it saw fit. For example, the government could predict that, say, there was a demand for 2 million pairs of shoes. They would then produce those shoes, regardless if people actually did want them or not, and this process in general resulted in hefty wasted outputs. Because of the governments "quota" system of production, inefficiency in production was rife, as firms would only meet the governments quota for production and seldom exceed it as they would be given no extra pay, there was no profit incentive as there was in the west.

I could babble on more about the economic problems, but in general the government's way of running the economy simply did not work.

[96B]

You mean to tell me that Russia (then USSR) did not have unemployment, crime, drugs in schools, and subaverage education? Frankly, most of those are the individuals fault so I wouldnt blame the government for everything.

Actually, the communist government's main aim was to give everyone a "fairer, more equal" life. During the USSR, unemployment was non-existent as everyone who needed jobs were given jobs, and were guaranteed payment for their work. This inevitably however resulted in firms and companys taking on much more employees than they really needed, and it was common to have employees simply standing around for lack of work to do. Crime and drugs were of course still around back then, but with everyone more or less on the same step of the social ladder, it was far less than what it probably is now.

The main downfall of the USSR in my opinion was the way it operated economically. As it was a "command economy" the government would try to predict what consumers needed and wanted, and would produce those items as it saw fit. For example, the government could predict that, say, there was a demand for 2 million pairs of shoes. They would then produce those shoes, regardless if people actually did want them or not, and this process in general resulted in hefty wasted outputs. Because of the governments "quota" system of production, inefficiency in production was rife, as firms would only meet the governments quota for production and seldom exceed it as they would be given no extra pay, there was no profit incentive as there was in the west.

I could babble on more about the economic problems, but in general the government's way of running the economy simply did not work.

I would agree with many of your points, good intelligent post.

[Durandal]

#1 Russians who traveled abroad came back and told stories abou how every family has 2 cars, several TVs, 300 types of shoes in a store, stripmalls, etc.Unfortunately they forgot to tell about unemployment, crime, drugs in schools, subaverage education, decent healthcare for wealthy only and other great things that come with the western way of life.
#2 USSR would help financialy just about anybody in the world who expressed any sympathy towards communism. At one point economic weight of that help simply was too much.

Come on now.

There are numerous reasons why the Soviet "Empire" collapsed. To blame it on the two issues you listed is silliness. Let's review some of the reasons many diverse political, social, and economical writers and professors have given us (in no particular order):

• Dissatisfaction with the Government because of:
• The War in Afghanistan
• Low Level Class Conflict between the "Haves" (The Party and Business Men) and the "Have Nots" the workers and normal folks.
• Lack of anything remotely resembling an consumer oriented market
• Lack of Freedoms
• Intolerance of Diversity whether it be Religious or Racial
• Political Corruption on a Massive Scale

• Social and Economical Pressures
• Again, Freedom of Speech and Press, Religion, etc.
• Placement within society, rewards for loyalty, etc.
• Quality Goods, or lack there of lead to a want of Western Goods...again more available for different classes.
• A massive increase in crime, drugs, prostitution, *** slaves, racketeering, and black market goods, towards the end, in part a result of southern conflicts within States, the War, and Social Depression
• Massive Nationwide Alcoholism

• Economical and Global Issues
• Pollution and Fallout
• Lack of domestic and international trade that had a net gain for the country.
• Lack of valuable world currency. It was a joke. Barter system...trade in goods (rather than purchase) was used a great deal because of such a devalued/inflated currency.
• Supported corrupt regimes (not that the west did not, but Russian certainly had no qualms and COMMUNISM certainly was NOT a litmus test used to deal with these nations (I am still laughing about their support of the socialist nations of the world...what was Lybia, Syria, and Iraq?).
• Supported regimes with absolutely NO return on the investment (other than having THEIR party children attend your schools) because the regimes were much in the same boat as the USSR.
• Was on the verge of losing the southern States because of a massive influx of Muslim ideology as well as free market (this can be argued depending on who you talk to).
• Was caught up in an arms race with a nation who's quality of goods far surpassed theirs, could outspend without a change in lifestyle for its citizens, trained its soldiers far better, and used a technology base that outmatched theirs by at least two generations.
• Spent FAR two much money doing much of the above (including trying to match SDI).

That is just the tip of the Iceberg. It does not deal with weak leaders such as Gorbachev (weak) or Yeltsin (bought). It doesn't really deal with the very obvious comparison of a true corrupt nanny state vs. other western governments (a range of different types I might add...some of which did socialized medicare far better than the USSR EVER did.

If I had to pick a single cause of the collapse, it was Economic. Regardless of the reasons, the USSR spent far too much money. The spending was done by an economy that had been pretty much dealing with a recession for fifty years...or more. You cannot have a socialist society without capitalism...no money. You cannot spend money trying to match a nation that has a GNP so more massive than your own. You cannot operate purely on credit with debtor (economies going through a period(s) of massive inflation, recession, or in the middle of a depression) nations.

[duck]

There was widespread slavery in the Central Asian Soviet Republics and the Caucasian/Central Asian drugs/cotton/whatever mafia had close contacts with the Kremlin. There is a quite famous book on organized crime in the Soviet Union, just forgot the title and the author.

[duck]

Ahh, got it. Arkady Vaksberg: The Soviet Mafia

[California Joe]

Delusional. Absolutely delusional. Take Texan out of your handle. It's annoying.

[Pojo]

The afghan war mostly forced a political change much more so then any kind of material drain of resources. USSR has a horrible state run economy and its been running in the red for many years prior to the visible collapse. The free healthcare was horrible in quality, the entire nation suffers from alcoholism. Even though most had jobs many of them were simply given to relatives that were not even qualified for that post. Normal people had no way to really advanced and become wealthy unless they get in bed with the corrupt authorities. My grandfather on my moms side is one of smartest engineers in Russia. He has helped to design many commercial jet engines, wrote like 10 books (technical encyclopedias and such) about alternate fuel engines. He has worked for TSAGI (RUSSIAN NASA) all his life. Sadly his pay is barely above that of some looser that sweeps the street for living and has 5th grade education. Thats the "we all equal and everything is everyones" mentality that drove that country into the ground.

In USSR if you were smart you would get approached by the government and you either work for them or you end up missing. Never underestimate the scientific and engineering power of even today's Russia. They have some of the smartest people around working next to for free. Its the government system and very serious corruption that prevents that country from becoming a world power once again.

:bash:

[Russian Texan]

The reasons I have named didn't come from me, I wasn't old or educated enough at that time to analyze. Those two reason is a sum up of numerous conversations with the older generation people, peole who had to live thru it and deal with it.

The things that yall have named are definitely the factors that contributed but they weren't decisive. What was decisive is peoples desire to live like americans and economys inability to make it happen and then it was allowed to explode.
Russia simply could not anymore economicaly support it's satelites and other communist symphatizers around the world - it was becoming too many of them. And at the same time the "control grip" on society was relaxed and chained reaction followed.

What amazes me is that how you guys are making statements about USSR break up without even knowing what USSR or Russia is. Do any of you speak russian, may be you lived in Russia for 10+ years, - no? Do you even have a clue about russian mentality, society or values? Do you know or understand moving forces behind politics in USSR and then Russia? So what makes you different from so called "armchair generals"?
The only things that you know about it - you have learned from a History Channel and a half-retarded CNN journalists, oh wait, some of you might read a book or two by a western authorwho had couple of conversations with some dissident... Not only you make uneducated guesses, you also seem to be pretty glad that USSR ended up the way it did.

I have been there at the time, I was young but I have a lot of things embeded in my memory about breaking up of USSR.
I have seen a professor of nuclear physics go thru the dumpster in order not to let his kid and wife to starve, I have seen MD work as janitor in a bank that was created to launder stolen money from pension funds, I remember one kid in my class laughin at another and making condenscending commnets about him because his dad was a "businessman" and poor kids dad was an engineer that wasn't getting paid for 7th month straight so he couldn't buy his son Nike shoes, I have witnessed transformation of one of my friends dad who used to be a division commander into alcoholic and eventualy becoming a bum at the train station, I have heard of New Russians buying new S600 because they didn't like the color of old one anymore while kids in orphanages were starving and freezing because they weren't state sponsored anymore and couldn't afford "market economy utilities", I have seen WW2 veterans walking through the park and picking up empty Pepsi bottles after punks like me, so they could turn them in and buy some bread, I have seen friend of my mother wearing a black dress and a veil when her husband - recipient of multiple combat medals of the Afgan war, died because he couldn't afford "market priced" medicine, I can't describe you the feelings that I had when an Afgan veteran in a small cart, because he didn't have any legs, pushed himself up to my dad's car in traffic and streched his hand...I still want to cry from anger and not being able to help even now. I have seen reaction of people when their life long saving became wothless, I have seen expensive restaurants open up for new Russians when 95% of population were standing in lines to chash in their food stamps for some milk and bread, I have seen a lot of things that you all will never see and are not able to relate to, so SHTFU!!! you have no clue what it was like and this topic is very personal to me.
I'll give you couple of more examples: The last year of USSR Moscow had under 300 homicides, nest year it had 1200+ it's just a little heads up on the crime situation.
Another one: back in USSR years the worst crime in School was smoking, new Russia has added alcohol, drugs and teenage prostitution.
Corruption, oh I can tell you a thing or two about corruption in a modern day Russia and Ukraine... Back in USSR days corruption obviously existed but it wasn't so "in your face". Now it is open and anything can be bought and sold.
USSR "elite" was able to enjoy things that a regular person couldn't even dream about but they kept quite about it. New Russians and democrats were not ashamed to have lavish receptions and show off their luxury lifestyles in front of majority that was living below the poverty level.
USSR "elite" didn't care about an individual person but they cared abou the country in general. Russian democrats cared about neither, for them it was all about making money and bying property abroad.
USSR didn't start wars for money, New Russia did. For someone war is a tragedy, while for others it's a gold mine... There is russian song that describes so well what happened at the start of the First Chechen war, the idea of it is that while soldiers were counting down hours by the mine explosions ( midnight = 12 o'clock = 12 explosions) and wiping off blood during an assault on Groznyi on New Years eve, at the same time "new masters of Russia were sitting in evening dresses behind tables in Moscow and toasting each other....suki

I remember seeing a poll in a newspaper where 86% of Russians blamed break up of USSR on one single person - Gorbachev, he was the one who lost the country, he is the one who caused so many tears, paine, suffering and humiliation to so many Russians and other USSR nationalities. I will never forgive him for what he have done to my parents generation and generations before: he simply threw out their lifes.
Yes, the changes to the way USSR was run were absolutely needed but it should not have to be done in some kind of perverted western democracy way. Look at China: it chose the smart way - it started introducing capitalism without painfull breaking of the general society system. I sure do envy 5000 years of Chinese wisdom...
Thank God Russia had started to wake up to reality now as recent elections show and thank God it has a leader like Putin who at least has some sense of direction...
So guys, stop acting like some "armchair generals" cause you don't know or understand a ****...

[Russian Texan]

Delusional. Absolutely delusional. Take Texan out of your handle. It's annoying.

Well, considering that the purpouse of my life is to please you...
If you want to act like an asshole - you have to be one, you don't have what it takes...

[Pojo]

I was born and lived in Moscow for 13 years before I moved to the states, I still keep up good contact with many of my relitives there. Most of the older people are of the mentatility that "stalin was better" they been so heavily brain washed and the fact that things now are in many ways worse they forces them to arrive at that conclusion.

Its funny listening to latest russian tunes and just how many of them use english words and phrases. They are very quick to adopting western language, in a few more generations the young people should all be able to speak at least some english. This is a good thing as our two countries need to get together and rule the world. Having been on boths sides I can easily state that we more alike then any other two countries as far as people. Russian, US, Britain and Australia now thats sounds like world dominating alliance.

[ArmedPacifist]

Thanks for all the input. guys. Much appreciated. :)

[Russian Texan]

Most of the older people are of the mentatility that "stalin was better" they been so heavily brain washed and the fact that things now are in many ways worse they forces them to arrive at that conclusion.

They are not saying it because they were brainwashed, they are saying because they defended Moscow, fought at Stalingrad, died at Kursk and took over Berlin with the words: "For Stalin, For Motherland!" It is not brainwashing, well being and glory of USSR was a sole reason of their lives... They have also witnessed comaradery, honor and pride being replaced with bubble gum, ****ography and dollars, that is why they are so bitter.

[16 OBr SpN]

I was born and lived in Moscow for 13 years before I moved to the states, I still keep up good contact with many of my relitives there. Most of the older people are of the mentatility that "stalin was better" they been so heavily brain washed and the fact that things now are in many ways worse they forces them to arrive at that conclusion.

Its funny listening to latest russian tunes and just how many of them use english words and phrases. They are very quick to adopting western language, in a few more generations the young people should all be able to speak at least some english. This is a good thing as our two countries need to get together and rule the world. Having been on boths sides I can easily state that we more alike then any other two countries as far as people. Russian, US, Britain and Australia now thats sounds like world dominating alliance.

You see, my personal view is, Gorbachev, Yeltsin and other "democrats" have destroyed the nation. Instead of normalizing the life standard of people, they brought even more poverty, crime, and corruption.

Basically these two people have betrayed us. One destroyed the country I gave an oath to, and the other further humiliated us. It's not only elder people who think that way. Maybe 90% of us think that we should put all those "democrats" into Butyrka prison and let them rotten there.

They destroyed one of the world's most powerful security organizations - KGB. As a result of that, the state security has suffered tremendously.

Afghan veterans were treated like crap. That's why many of them went into organized crime. I personally, was approached dozens of times, with tempting offers to work as a "security advisor".

Organizaed crime was a cancer of our society, even during times of Stalin. We are the people who brought many famous poets, musicians, artists, etc., and at the same time, gave birth to world's most notorious criminal groups. That's the mistery about Russia.

You are talking about western "values" being implemented in Russia. I personally don't see anything positive about it!
Instead of growing as patriots of their nation, children grow up weak, and immoral. No thank you, I think we can do good without any western culture. Look at what's going on on our TV: ****ing homo******s; reality-TV; prostitutes; rap music!! It became a one big brothel!! :(

In movies, the mafia, is portrayed as something humane and heroic! Look at "Brigada" and "Boomer"!! This is NOT the Russia I want my children to grow up in!! :(
Me and other soldiers who spilled blood and lost lives, did not do it for those weak cowards on TV; movies; and politics!!

Russia definitely needs an iron hand. Get rid of 99% of "democrats", and "businessmen"; and everything will be much better. Otherwise our culture and heritage will die.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[SFontaine]

And while we're at it lets just get rid of Freedom of Speech and civil liberties.

[96B]

Well at least we are on the same page with regards to our disdain for fricken rap music!

[16 OBr SpN]

And while we're at it lets just get rid of Freedom of Speech and civil liberties.

WHAT IS freedom of speech? We actually never had it. Those journalists are 99% bunch of prostitutes. They say whatever they are told/paid to say by "democrats" and "businessmen". Or is it a dumb rap music, and ****ing pop singers/prostitues?? Maybe it's that stupid reality TV with bunch of weak ****heads?? Or maybe it's the goddamn faggots all over the TV and music?? Or talk shows talking nothing more but who sleeps with whom??
If it is - screw this "freedom of speech".

You guys want to say that there is freedom of speech in USA?? I've seen some developments in America before Iraqi war which indicate a totally opposite. Please don't teach us something if you guys are far from that yourselves.

Civil liberties?? What is it??
If that means mafia, corruption, drugs, prostitues, faggots, ****ing traitors, and etc; then YES, let's get rid of it for good! I don't want some politician on TV teaching us how to live, when he's ready to sell his own mother, leave alone his own country. I don't want to see those "human rights" assholes talk about our "genocide of chechen population"! I don't want them to spit on the names of my comrades, who lost lives protecting them from fundamentalist scumbags!!
Goddamn traitors - that what comes to my mind when I see them on TV.

Because this is the kind of "civil liberty" bull**** which I see going on in Russia.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Pojo]

Russian Texan & 16 OBr SpN - Believe me when I say that I understand your views and they do reflect the current general feeling in russia. However I must urge you to be more patient and look the the future as it will get better, these are simply growing pains. They were brainwashed by the russian media and propaganda while they were under Stalin's rule. Stalin took great care to only show himself as the good guy through any kind of media. Anyone that even though otherwise would end up in the gulag camps that supposedly didn't exist according to the new and media of the times.

Having pride in your country is great but they were doing it for all the wrong reason. Yeah we kicked the Germans ass and yes things were really going well on the surface in 1950-70. What most people didn't see was the massive economic collapse slowly taking place and the deep political corruption that was taking hold over the entire country. USSR didn't collapse because of the western ways or the new perestroika leaders. It collapsed because its economic structure and political structure was failing in every respect simply because they are not viable systems. They simply ended because they could no longer support their own growth and had no future.

Things did get worse but that's what happens when last 30 years your country has been running itself into the ground economically and politically speaking. It took the US about 200 years to arrive at a truly viable economic and governmental systems. Anyone that was hoping for russia to just change over a few years are simply naive. It will take decades and many generations of people before things will get better for good.

People hate change, and they hate it even more if its for the worse. Again these problems are not because of the change itself but because the previous way of life has collapsed and this is the result of that collapse.

With no strong governmental all the criminals simply filled a void that's was left open. All this crime is in part fueled by the new gaping hole that was left after the economy collapsed. With no real stable economy there is tons of opportunity to make money illegally. People that have been denied personal property and personal profit for 50 years are lashing back and abusing their new found liberties.

Crime is very bad in russia at the moment without a good economy there are very little jobs and people turn to crime to survive. The older generation is simply can not accept these new values and they wish for the older simpler times to return. The new generation has a choice to make, either embrace the changes and make best of it or become drug addicts and alcoholics and complain all day.

It will take a few more generations before people will accept the new way of things and they will in the long run benefit from having a stable economy and new liberties. I know both views very well and here is my take on what is happening.

- ussr collapses under its own impotent economy and government
- new leaders try to put a new spin on this collapse as if it was a new initiative to change
- systems begin to fail and things get bad fast and hard
- russian overcompensate for things they never had before but now have access too (movies, ****o, dollars, super cars.. etc..)
- russia is split between those that can adapt and those that cant
- slowly the new generations will shift the balance away from the non adapters

Russia has a very long and hard road ahead to install new systems that simply don't exist right now. Crime needs to be slowly removed from all political, government and military branches. New way of thinking and using the free market economy has to develop. All these challenges are huge and will take decades to really complete. There is a reason why my family moved away as we clearly saw the **** was about to hit the fan. That's not really an option for most and as I said before I wish the best to everyone that still there and fighting everyday to make something better.

[Kingpin]

16 OBr SpN
I'm a kind of bussinesman. Now shoot me. :) In general i agree with many of your points but not with all.

[16 OBr SpN]

16 OBr SpN
I'm a kind of bussinesman. Now shoot me. :) In general i agree with many of your points but not with all.

Sorry man! I'm a businessman myself. :)
There was no insult meant to people who are indeed businessmen.

As you notice, I said "businessmen" in quotes, i.e. olygarchs, thieves, gangsters, who now became "respected businessmen" (Khodorkovsky; Friedman; Chubais; Alekperov; Berezovski; etc.). They made their fortune by screwing other people, and murdering those who stood in their way.

I hope you understand what I was trying to say. :)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Kingpin]

16 OBr SpN
I'm a kind of bussinesman. Now shoot me. :) In general i agree with many of your points but not with all.

Sorry man! I'm a businessman myself. :)
There was no insult meant to people who are indeed businessmen.

As you notice, I said "businessmen" in quotes, i.e. olygarchs, thieves, gangsters, who now became "respected businessmen" (Khodorkovsky; Friedman; Chubais; Alekperov; Berezovski, etc.). They made their fortune by screwing other people, and many murders.

I hope you understand what I was trying to say. :)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

Not true until proved in court.
1. Berezovski always dealed with all kind of extremists and terrorists in Russia but now how asylum in UK
2. Khodorkovski only accused of not paying taxes
3. Chubais only catched with couple of money issues
4. Friedman and Alikperov still clean

[Kingpin]

16 OBr SpN
I'm a kind of bussinesman. Now shoot me. :) In general i agree with many of your points but not with all.

Sorry man! I'm a businessman myself. :)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

Security advisor? :) ;)

[16 OBr SpN]

16 OBr SpN
I'm a kind of bussinesman. Now shoot me. :) In general i agree with many of your points but not with all.

Sorry man! I'm a businessman myself. :)
There was no insult meant to people who are indeed businessmen.

As you notice, I said "businessmen" in quotes, i.e. olygarchs, thieves, gangsters, who now became "respected businessmen" (Khodorkovsky; Friedman; Chubais; Alekperov; Berezovski, etc.). They made their fortune by screwing other people, and many murders.

I hope you understand what I was trying to say. :)

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

Not true until proved in court.
1. Berezovski always dealed with all kind of extremists and terrorists in Russia but now how asylum in UK
2. Khodorkovski only accused of not paying taxes
3. Chubais only catched with couple of money issues
4. Friedman and Alikperov still clean

What do you mean "clean"?

I can tell you one thing, Friedman was very involved in 1st Chechen war.

Chubais is still the head of RAO EES, and that's just outrageous. People are freezing in Far East, while the guy is playing politics!. "SPS" bull****!
I remember how those SPS assholes were talking about urgently stopping the "war in Chechnya" during Dubrovka! As if one Budennovsk wasn't enough! :(
Typical prostitues who tried to gain political points on the sufferings of others!

Again, they are not alone. There are lots of scumbags in government who keep them there as long as they pay them money.

The whole system is corrupt. I personally don't believe it any more. :(

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Kingpin]

I mean officially clean. May be i also killed babushka with an axe but i clean until court prove this case ;) ;) ;) ;)

[Durandal]

They are not saying it because they were brainwashed, they are saying because they defended Moscow...

Or maybe they are saying it because, they can. As opposed to the other 20 million, killed by Comrade Stalin.

[Durandal]

Because this is the kind of "civil liberty" bull**** which I see going on in Russia.

Sorry to hear that. Civil liberties and Freedom of Speech mean you do not end up in prison because you oppose the party. It means you can be an artist and not end up in a gulag because of your pacificst views. It means that when you condemned Stalin you were not shot. It means when you were a Ukranian and opposed Communist doctrination you, your family, and the village were not slaughtered.

Whine all you want. The fact that a bunch of folks YOU do not like can talk and live, legally, means something.

[Russian Texan]

Whine all you want. The fact that a bunch of folks YOU do not like can talk and live, legally, means something.

You mean like if some kind of muslim cleric would be able to get the airtime on your local TV station and express his views regarding US/politics?
You want the truth - US is very similar to USSR, except in economic way.

Interesting thing you have mentioned all those millions killed by Stalin. Do you honestly think that Stalin himself pointed to every single individual to be imprisoned, he himself signed the execution papers?
Let me educate you abot this huge myth:
The fact is that it Stalin had made a speech about having internal enemies, people who tried to sabotage USSR from within and he said that we need to be swift and harsh in dealing with traitors. It was in many ways similar to Mccarthy speech. So people started looking real hard for those "internal enemies", a lot of times too hard...
Let's say I didn't like my neighbor. I would write a "report" about him doing somekind of suspicious activity or being a spy/terrorist cell member, etc... "Justice" was swift and in a matter of couple of days my neighbor was building socialism in Siberia or explaining principals of communism to polar bears, while the local NKVD chief would report upstairs about succsessfully caught spy or destroyed terrorist network.
That is what happened.
Granted that Stalin wasn't a "Mother Theresa" but don't accuse him of something out of your lack of knowledge.
What did Stalin mean for Russia and why do so many cherish him? Like one western politician of his time said: "Stalin had recieved the country with a plough and left it with an "A" bomb..."

For the sake of arguement about "civil liberties" I can remind you of the Japanese-Americans fate in the US during WW2.

[aktarian]

So the war in Afghanistan had little impact? I find this hard to believe.

It sure didn't help. It just brought problems of the society to the open, made them more ****ounced. But you can't pin collapse of SU solely on it.

[Durandal]

Granted that Stalin wasn't a "Mother Theresa"...

For the sake of arguement about "civil liberties" I can remind you of the Japanese-Americans fate in the US during WW2.

No, he was not a Mother Theresa, he was another f%cking Hitler.

Hey, I AM appalled at the Japanese American camps as are most Americans these days.

And do not compare one of the most brutal dictators of the modern era to Senator MaCarthy. We were not going around putting people into camps and placing them in front of firing squads.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Whine all you want. The fact that a bunch of folks YOU do not like can talk and live, legally, means something.

You mean like if some kind of muslim cleric would be able to get the airtime on your local TV station and express his views regarding US/politics?
You want the truth - US is very similar to USSR, except in economic way.

Interesting thing you have mentioned all those millions killed by Stalin. Do you honestly think that Stalin himself pointed to every single individual to be imprisoned, he himself signed the execution papers?
Let me educate you abot this huge myth:
The fact is that it Stalin had made a speech about having internal enemies, people who tried to sabotage USSR from within and he said that we need to be swift and harsh in dealing with traitors. It was in many ways similar to Mccarthy speech. So people started looking real hard for those "internal enemies", a lot of times too hard...
Let's say I didn't like my neighbor. I would write a "report" about him doing somekind of suspicious activity or being a spy/terrorist cell member, etc... "Justice" was swift and in a matter of couple of days my neighbor was building socialism in Siberia or explaining principals of communism to polar bears, while the local NKVD chief would report upstairs about succsessfully caught spy or destroyed terrorist network.
That is what happened.
Granted that Stalin wasn't a "Mother Theresa" but don't accuse him of something out of your lack of knowledge.
What did Stalin mean for Russia and why do so many cherish him? Like one western politician of his time said: "Stalin had recieved the country with a plough and left it with an "A" bomb..."

For the sake of arguement about "civil liberties" I can remind you of the Japanese-Americans fate in the US during WW2.

Stalin was a control freak. He may not have pulled the triggers himself, but he damn knew exactly what was going on, and in fact encouraged it. Hitler didn't run the ovens himself, but was he not ultimately responsible? In both cases, the people comitting the atrocities were acting as agents of the state, not as criminals pursued by the police. In fact in many cases they were the police.

Of course a lot of Russians long for the old days. They were the major beneficiaries of the various communist programs. The "A-bomb" is not the only thing Stalin left Russia with. He left it with opression, gulags, slave labor, secret police, and a policy of acquiring it's neibors in order to exploit them to stave of it's own inevetible demise.

And the Japanese American's you mentioned...we had just suffered a sneak attack. We kept families together, and relocated them to remote camps. Did it suck? Yes. Was it "wrong"? I don't know - we will never know if we prevented any furhter attacks by imprisioning them. We didn't force any into slave labor. We didn't "recondition" any. We didn't murder any of them. Meanwhile, the Japanese were shelling our forests in the NorthWest to hopefully burn down our population centers. They floated chemical weapons canisters over the west coast on baloons. We were fairly terrified of them, and behaved accordingly. I regret that it happened, but I bet it's better than what happened to any Germans living in Russia during WWII!

[Durandal]

You mean like if some kind of muslim cleric would be able to get the airtime on your local TV station and express his views regarding US/politics?

You want the truth - US is very similar to USSR, except in economic way.

I have no problem with a Muslim Cleric getting air time. n He is ALLOWED to express his views.

The United States and Russia are in fact very...not similar. Sure a lot of it has to do with economics problems as a cause of economics (like lack of police in the country side, bandits on the VERY few highways Russia has, "little" stuff like that, but there are a lot of other issues as well.

I am actually wondering if you really do live in Texas.

[Kingpin]

The United States and Russia are in fact very...not similar. Sure a lot of it has to do with economics problems as a cause of economics (like lack of police in the country side, bandits on the VERY few highways Russia has, "little" stuff like that, but there are a lot of other issues as well.

I am actually wondering if you really do live in Texas.

Yes he is. Trust me - many people who was born and grew in USSR after immigrating to US call back to relatives in Russia and tell them that USA is "like USSR only with capitalism". Don't ask me why they conclude this - i never been in US. I only know they're saying this.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

You mean like if some kind of muslim cleric would be able to get the airtime on your local TV station and express his views regarding US/politics?

You want the truth - US is very similar to USSR, except in economic way.

I have no problem with a Muslim Cleric getting air time. n He is ALLOWED to express his views.

The United States and Russia are in fact very...not similar. Sure a lot of it has to do with economics problems as a cause of economics (like lack of police in the country side, bandits on the VERY few highways Russia has, "little" stuff like that, but there are a lot of other issues as well.

I am actually wondering if you really do live in Texas.

I'm not really an authority on the subject (having not visited Russia myself) - but they seem to have a serious problem with ethics & law enforcement. A "Western" type economic & social system can't take hold there until there's effective law enforcement & judical system. It's a shame, since they have a lot of natural resources, and talented scientific/techical people to work with. Hey, I've even bought 2 Russian software programs - they work & they're cheap.

[Kingpin]

Hey, I've even bought 2 Russian software programs - they work & they're cheap.

I recommend you Fine Reader from ABBYY Software House. Best OCR in the world. I participated in development of 4th version in 97-98 years. :) And still in credits in 7th version. Though it isn't cheap :)

[GazB]

"Of course a lot of Russians long for the old days. They were the major beneficiaries of the various communist programs. "

Bull. Most of them were the equivelent of peasants... working people. Most of the evil commies have maintained and even strengthened their power, they just call themselves businessmen. When companies with huge resources and large unwieldy labour forces were "privatised" who do you think had the money to buy them and then fire most of the people and then sell anything that was worth anything to foreigners? Only the Former communist bosses that the power, connections and ready money to do that. Some came from nowhere and gained money and power, but most already had it and just changed the label from communist to capitalist overnight.
And it is not the salt mines and the killings the Russian people are nostalgic about... it is the law and order. Even the Russian Exile/poet Andrei Sakharov (spelling) has said publiclly despite being exiled by the communists for his work on freedom and democracy that he prefers the old way. The KGB could be brutal, but the had orders and followed them. There was some trust. He said these days a corrupt official was so unpredictible as were mafia bosses that you might think you were going to be his friend just before the knife goes in your back.

"He left it with opression, gulags, slave labor, secret police, and a policy of acquiring it's neibors in order to exploit them to stave of it's own inevetible demise. "

And which neighbours did they "aquire" after Stalins death? The only country they directly attacked was Afghanistan several decades after Stalins death. there were attempts to drag it into the 20th century and create ties between Afghanistan and the Soviet Union, but it certainly wasn't annexed. Along ethnic lines the north of Afghanistan could have been annexed due to the close ties in that area to the people across the border in the soviet union.

I am not going to defend Stalin... he is certainly not worth defending, but criticising a country because one if its previous leaders was a jerk is pretty stupid. Especially since he wasn't even Russian.

BTW I have several games from Russians... Su-27 Flanker, Flanker 2.0, and I want LOMAC, and on the ground Outbreak was pretty good and i am looking forward to that FPS set in Chernobyl where you get a whole lot of Russian weapons and go in as a merc to find alien technology to sell (and to kill aliens and stuff). (I think it is called Chasers or something.)

[Kingpin]

BTW I have several games from Russians... Su-27 Flanker, Flanker 2.0, and I want LOMAC, and on the ground Outbreak was pretty good and i am looking forward to that FPS set in Chernobyl where you get a whole lot of Russian weapons and go in as a merc to find alien technology to sell (and to kill aliens and stuff). (I think it is called Chasers or something.)

1. I very very recomend you to buy IL-2 Sturmovik and IL-2 Sturmovik: Forgotten Battles - the best aviasims I ever played. I experienced here the best dogfights online. Fly physics and damage model incrediblly detailed.

2. Game you mentioned called STALKER: Oblivion Lost. Actually it is developed by Ukrainian team but it doesn't matter - we're all came from USSR :) .
http://www.stalker-game.com/index_eng.html

[Durandal]

And which neighbours did they "aquire" after Stalins death? The only country they directly attacked was Afghanistan several decades after Stalins death. there were attempts to drag it into the 20th century and create ties between Afghanistan and the Soviet Union, but it certainly wasn't annexed. Along ethnic lines the north of Afghanistan could have been annexed due to the close ties in that area to the people across the border in the soviet union.

Let's see, there was ALL of Eastern Europe. We all KNOW that living under Soviet rule in these "nations" was no fairy tale. I seem to recall a WHOLE bunch of democratic protests. There was the siege of Berlin in 49. Crushing of Unions and democratic parties and gatherings in Poland, Czechoslavakia, the Baltic States, Eastern Europe. This nations were not independent nations but puppet States that had the yoke of one oppressor thrown off by and replaced by another.

Now, here is the sad thing. Afghanistan was BETTER before the Soviet invasion than before. It was a simple land grab and EVERYONE knows it. Quit playing it like it was a move to "help" them.

I did not mean to start off this day with arguing, so...

I hope you guys all have a safe and beautiful day. Happy holidays!