new leftish or just open eyes!

[stephane from Paris]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22922-2003Dec22.html

[budanski]

Zinni was a complete failure in Israel/Palestinian talks. So failing in that arena like so many others makes him an authority on the Middle East?

Also, he was an ex-commander of forces in Somalia....and what happened to our guys in Somalia?.....left on the streets of Mogidishu without armor support?...left on the streets of Mogidishu without air support? Got 18 of Americas finest killed on account of politics? Something to think about.

I'm sorry, but how would a former military member know the contents of any plans? I doubt war planners would be consulted by retirees about plans. It's amazing how many of these retired generals are quick to criticize a plan they’ve never seen.

Sounds more like a New Age Fuffball (http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/20030228.asp) ;)

[Zach R.]

Zinni was a complete failure in Israel/Palestinian talks. So failing in that arena like so many others makes him an authority on the Middle East?

Also, he was an ex-commander of forces in Somalia....and what happened to our guys in Somalia?.....left on the streets of Mogidishu without armor support?...left on the streets of Mogidishu without air support? Got 18 of Americas finest killed on account of politics? Something to think about.

I'm sorry, but how would a former military member know the contents of any plans? I doubt war planners would be consulted by retirees about plans. It's amazing how many of these retired generals are quick to criticize a plan they’ve never seen.

Sounds more like a New Age Fuffball (http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/20030228.asp) ;)

Dammit! You always post what I was gonna say.

[Maj C]

Gen Zinni was not in charge of the Army units that had all the problems in Mogadishu..he was in charge of the Marines who pulled everybody out after the Army and UN screwed it all up. He's a smart man and not particularly a lefty. Retired Generals get ALOT of scoop - it's an old boy network, particularly in a small community like the USMC. I don't think he's becoming another Smedley Butler...he's just calling them as he sees it.

[front]

"I'm sorry, but how would a former military member know the contents of any plans? I doubt war planners would be consulted by retirees about plans. It's amazing how many of these retired generals are quick to criticize a plan they’ve never seen."

There are answers in the article to this. Zinni only has to look at the build-up, and outcome, of any plan to be able to criticise it...

"The more he listened to Wolfowitz and other administration officials talk about Iraq, the more Zinni became convinced that interventionist "neoconservative" ideologues were plunging the nation into a war in a part of the world they didn't understand. "The more I saw, the more I thought that this was the product of the neocons who didn't understand the region and were going to create havoc there. These were dilettantes from Washington think tanks who never had an idea that worked on the ground." "

... and seeing as he had experience in the region his opinions should not be idly dismissed.

""My contemporaries, our feelings and sensitivities were forged on the battlefields of Vietnam, where we heard the garbage and the lies, and we saw the sacrifice," he said at a talk to hundreds of Marine and Navy officers and others at a Crystal City hotel ballroom in September. "I ask you, is it happening again?" The speech, part of a forum sponsored by the U.S. Naval Institute and the Marine Corps Association, received prolonged applause, with many officers standing. "

It also seems that his opinions are felt by some of those still serving. I'd take it as a given that Zinni knows what he is talking about. He's hoping that someone in power will listen.

cheers

front

[budanski]

It seems as though at the beginning of the Iraqi War, every retired general came out of the woodwork to criticise the war plan. Every one of them were going by the last Gulf War. How many of these retired generals were proven wrong when Tommy Franks and Co. were able to take Baghdad in 21 days?

[front]

"every retired general came out of the woodwork to criticise the war plan"

And what was the "war plan" budanski? What WAS the war plan? Tell us please. Make a big long post on how you saw the war plan as per currently serving Generals (and don't forget to include General Franks in there too... the General who left before it was over... but he was a big part so get stuck in there).

"Every one of them were going by the last Gulf War."

Sources please. Come on my friend. Give us a few links so we can read about all these Generals and their misguided prophecies on US T.V. and in published articles, talks, symposiums, and other such relevant platforms.

"How many of these retired generals were proven wrong when Tommy Franks and Co. were able to take Baghdad in 21 days?"

Ouch... General Franks got out when the going was good. Budanski? It's easy to "take" territory... it's another thing to hold it.

I believe that General Zinn has more particular ideas which are more relevant today.

cheers

front

[96B]

It seems as though at the beginning of the Iraqi War, every retired general came out of the woodwork to criticise the war plan. Every one of them were going by the last Gulf War. How many of these retired generals were proven wrong when Tommy Franks and Co. were able to take Baghdad in 21 days?

That is because OIF was unlike any war in the past and in many ways unconventional. The vast majority of Generals love their big tank battles and conventional engagements and are apprehensive about SOF (i.e. Norman Schwarzkopf). The most common gripe I recall of the retired group pertained to the manpower and how we "only" had 250,000 instead of the 500,000 from Desert Storm.

As for Zinni, I recall reading a bit about him and seeing him in a few interviews and it did seem that he leaned a little to the left. But then again its hard for me to tell because Im just to the right of Attila the Hun...

[Saranof]

Yeah, thank you front. You said what I thought of..