First Stryker Destroyed by hostile fire..

[He219]

http://www.armytimes.com/content/editorial/editart/122203front5.jpg

Soldiers on Saturday investigate the burned hulk of a Stryker destroyed by an improvised explosive device during an attack at Forward Operating Base Pacesetter. Guerilla forces ambushed a Stryker patrol near Samarra, destroying one vehicle — the first Stryker to be lost to hostile fire. The four-soldier crew escaped, but one soldier was injured in the attack.

:(

[Ratamacue]

Sounds to me like something that would take out just about any APC. Good thing that no one was killed though.

[Operation Ivy]

:( Poor thing

Glad Everyone still alive :)

[He219]

At least they caught the bastards!

http://www.armytimes.com/content/editorial/editart/122203rocket.jpg

Iraqi guerillas launched Chinese-made rockets, some propped up with dead tree branches, at Forward Operating Base Pacesetter early Sunday morning. — U.S. Army


December 22, 2003

Enemy fire breaks through Stryker camp perimeter
FOB Pacesetter suffered no casualties, damage
By Matthew Cox - Times staff writer

AD DULUIYAH, Iraq — Two exploding rounds vibrated the ground around the sleep tents here just after midnight Sunday, sending soldiers scrambling to defensive positions against a guerrilla attack.
The incoming rocket and mortar fire also shook the relative sense of peace inside the Stryker brigade’s base camp, the first time an attack had penetrated the inner perimeter of Forward Operating Base Pacesetter.

The first round sounded at 12:12 a.m., but most troops assumed the far-off explosion was friendly artillery firing.

The next two rounds, coming about 30 seconds apart, brought an instant about-face on that view, and soldiers deep in sleep one moment were racing into action.

“Let’s go! Let’s go! Get in your hole!” shouted Sgt. 1st Class James Green, fire-support NCO for the 5th Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment. Soldiers in various states of dress dashed to nearby sand-bagged bunkers.

“Is anybody still in these tents?!” Green shouted.

Soldiers on .50 caliber machine guns on the outer perimeter sent bursts toward the southeast, red tracers slicing through the dark.

Incoming rounds continued to creep closer for the next 20 minutes, with the final two landing close enough that one could hear the incoming whistle and watch the orange explosions light up the night.

The troops manning Pacesetter’s 155mm howitzers unleashed five rounds of counter fire, silencing the attack.

Radar operators tracked the incoming fire, discerning that this was more than just a hasty attack.

“They were firing from two different points,” said Capt. Curt Rowland, who was acting as the 5-20’s battle captain inside the unit’s tactical operations center.

The barrage inflicted no casualties or damage to the camp, which has served as base for the Fort Lewis, Wash.-based 3rd Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division (SBCT) since it arrived in early December. But the attack sent a message that after five days of counter-insurgency operations in nearby Samarra, a hotbed of guerrilla activity, enemy forces here are still capable of potentially deadly attack.

Just several hours before this attack, guerrilla forces in Samarra ambushed a Stryker vehicle from 1st Battalion, 23rd Infantry Regiment with an improvised explosive device. No soldiers were hurt in the explosion that damaged one of the vehicle’s tires. Minutes later, an OH-58D Kiowa scout helicopter spotted the assailants in a vehicle trying to escape. Elements of 1-23 went after the vehicle, stopped it and captured the five men without firing a shot, said Lt. Col. Joe Piek, spokesman for the Stryker brigade.

This is the second such attack on a Stryker vehicle. The first occurred Dec. 13 when militants detonated a similar explosive device near a reconnaissance vehicle from 1st Squadron, 14th Cavalry patrolling near this city of 50,000.

The four-soldier crew managed to escape, but one soldier was injured in the attack. The explosion set the Stryker on fire and destroyed it.

Immediately following Sunday’s early-morning barrage, soldiers in a mix of Strykers and Humvees searched the surrounding area. Six kilometers to the southeast, the patrol found about 20 Chinese and Russian 107mm rockets lined up at the ready. The patrol also found a mortar position about two kilometers west of the rocket position.

“Once we started counter-firing … I guess they decided they didn’t want to hang around,” said Capt. Eric Olson, battle captain at brigade headquarters.

The counter-fire rounds hit to the rear of the rocket position, one as close as 75 meters away, said Staff Sgt. Jorge Bourdon, fire support NCO for the brigade, describing the position as “low-tech but effective.”

The rockets were propped up against a small berm at roughly a 45-degree angle, some held in place with dead tree branches.

“They knew the exact angle they had to get them at,” he said. “Pretty smart. Whoever did it took their time.”

There have been similar barrages in the past, but none of them have ever penetrated the inner perimeter of the camp, said CW3 Joe Peveto, targeting officer for the brigade.

“They were terrible shots until last night,” he said. “This was definitely coordinated.”

[usa320]

I think instead of bitching about the destroyed stryker, everyone should be commending the machine for keepin its crew alive and well.

[Vance]

I think instead of bitching about the destroyed stryker, everyone should be commending the machine for keepin its crew alive and well.
Yep.

[ArmedPacifist]

I think instead of bitching about the destroyed stryker, everyone should be commending the machine for keepin its crew alive and well.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

[Skaman]

Atleast they caught the bastards


Why are they bastards?

[Shake n Bake]

get the **** out of here ducimus

[Ratamacue]

Shake, he has the right to be here and he asked a legitimate question. At least be civilized so you don't look like a complete fool.

[Shake n Bake]

What do mean he has the right to be here? This is a private site you don't have any "rights" here.. we're all guest.

[Ratamacue]

Very well, then. He has no less the right to be here than you do. So why don't you get the f*ck out of here?

[GLax]

http://www.armytimes.com/content/editorial/editart/122203front5.jpg

just looking at this, youd think nobody got out, but its great that they were all able to escape. hope the guy that got wounded gets a speedy recovery.

[96B]

Atleast they caught the bastards


Why are they bastards?

Because they target not only our troops who are ultimately there to improve Iraq but also innocent civilians and anybody remotely sympathetic to America or the coalition.

[Shake n Bake]

ducimus doesn't contribute anything to these forums..

all he does is troll and stir **** up. Why he is still allowed here is beyond me...

[Skaman]

Atleast they caught the bastards


Why are they bastards?

Because they target not only our troops who are ultimately there to improve Iraq but also innocent civilians and anybody remotely sympathetic to America or the coalition.

This is war, and the reasoning behind both sides is subjective and questionable. To the USA, this is Liberation, to Iraqis, this is Invasion.

The war is interpreted very differently; even this judgment cannot be made in entirety.

[Dalleer]

Not that I would know much about the "Stryker", but it seemed to perform quite well in the account of crew survival.

[NcDeuce]

This is war, and the reasoning behind both sides is subjective and questionable. To the USA, this is Liberation, to Iraqis, this is Invasion.

To the Iraqis, this is invasion? From all of the guys I have spoken to that have been there, the majority of the Iraqi population has embraced the Allied forces. Quit watching your Jane Fonda shi*.

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/gulf_war_2_iraqi_freedom_army_special_forces/asdlsad092.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/gulf_war_2_iraqi_freedom_army_infantry_divisions/infantry122.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/gulf_war_2_iraqi_freedom_marines/usmc281_001.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/gulf_war_2_iraqi_freedom_marines/usmc282_001.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/gulf_war_2_iraqi_freedom_marines/usmc277_001.jpg

[budanski]

Why are they bastards?
'cause they were born from unwed parents. Saddam told me so.

[HumanShield]

Does anyone else acount the no casualties to the fact that they were able to get out of the large door in the rear of the Stryker unlike the hatch of a tank?

[SOG]

Atleast they caught the bastards


Why are they bastards?

because they are the enemy, they are on the other side. we, are infidel bastards to them. its very simple, enenmies dont view eachother as friends or "disagreeing parties.

ill leave it best said by soldiers,

"So they've got us surrounded, good! Now we can fire in any direction, those bastards won't get away this time!" -CHESTY PULLER, USMC

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." - Patton (notice the commanality of the word "bastard")

My God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're going up against. My God, I do. We're not just going to shoot the bastards, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy Hun bastards by the bushel. Now some of you boys, I know, are wondering whether or not you'll chicken out under fire. Don't worry about it. I can assure you that you'll all do your duty. The Nazis are the enemy. Wade into them. Spill their blood, shoot them in the belly. - patton

on the side you equate them as freedom fighters under a previous reign which is now wholly gone, to actually think they are fighting for thier people could be true and not true. what if some iraqis like what the US is doing and some dont? does that make us anymore the bad guy then them? we wouldnt be there if they werent still there? people who shoot at you are bastards because they are trying to kill you and vice versa.[/b]

[Saranof]

This is war, and the reasoning behind both sides is subjective and questionable. To the USA, this is Liberation, to Iraqis, this is Invasion.

To the Iraqis, this is invasion? From all of the guys I have spoken to that have been there, the majority of the Iraqi population has embraced the Allied forces. Quit watching your Jane Fonda sh**


That's funny, last time I checked, most iraqis were pretty pi***d off by the way the US governed the country.
The partisans in france in world war two. To us, they were legitimate freedom fitghters. The iraqi greilla are freedom fighters for some iraqis.
The difference? They are fightning against YOU.
So I don't expect you to understand.

[marktigger]

looking at the pics I'm glad the casualties were so light.

interesting in MND se they don't seam to have attacks like this. I wonder why?
saw an interesting incident before I left British convoy heading for basra passes a us convoy heading for somewhere further north. The local Kids were waving at us but as soon as the US convoy appeared they started throwing stones at it.
Then I saw the Channel 4 piece last week on how US troops are behaving in and around Bagdad etc and it all became clear. I would sugest if you keep on with the policies and attitudes you are currently showing we are going to end up with another Vietnam and the US scuttling out of Iraq with its tail between its legs.

[George W. Bush]

They set off their charge and fled like the pussies they are.

Bring it on extremists!

[marktigger]

thats what terrorism is all about same as the VC, IRA, PLO used to do.

[Andrekid]

Sorry, but this is a invasion!!!!
During the IIWW, in ocuppied France many people was happy with nazi invasion and support the Vichy govemnent and make money with this. and it is a invasion and many people died in the invasion!!!!!!!!
Some photos don´t say nothing about situation in Iraq, if it isn´t a invasion, the US govermnent must pass the power for the democratic and legal Iraq goverrmnent.
:fork:
Support an defend yor contry is right , but be blind about the errors of your govermnent is other thing
Merry Christmas to all
André Mendonça
Brazil

[Vance]

Sorry, but this is a invasion!!!!
During the IIWW, in ocuppied France many people was happy with nazi invasion
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Andrekid]

What up?

You must read more books of history my friend!!!!!
I will send you a bibliografic references
Don´t have people in France ou Ukraine or Poland that agree nazi invasion???????
Is the same thing in Iraq, I agree that Saddan is a criminal, but this isn´t support a invasion and where are the mass destruction weapons in Iraq?????
Anybody know????
Now you send me a item, telling that in Vietnam, the VC are terrorists? and the USA don´t invade the Vietnam???????

[Vance]

Wait wait are you saying most of the French poulation welcomed the invasion of France by Nazi Germany?

[Andrekid]

My Friend, read again my item
I wrote " Many people " not THE MOST PART OF FRENCH PEOPLE.
oKAY?

[George W. Bush]

so who's going to play the Americans and come save peaceful Iraqis from the evil neo-con Nazi fascist invaders?

[Andrekid]

SAVE????
You are crazy???
The USA invaded Iraq without a UN accept!!!!!!!! creat in Iraq a "new palestine" with new possible young men that now see the Us soldiers as the gilt of death of friends and parents. And this men and women in the furture could be new bomb-men and new terrorists. This invasion is note a legal act and in the background of it , have many lies and politicoal and monetary interests

[REMOV]

Don´t have people in France ou Ukraine or Poland that agree nazi invasion?In Poland? No.

Poland was the only occupied country during the WWII without nazi-collaborator government. None of Polish politician agreed to cooperate with German occupiers. No-one.

[Operation Ivy]

Don´t have people in France ou Ukraine or Poland that agree nazi invasion?In Poland? No.

Poland was the only occupied country during the WWII without nazi-collaborator government. None of Polish politician agreed to cooperate with German occupiers. No-one.

Andrekid proved wrong what a shock :roll:

[Andrekid]

I´m sorry to be wrong about Poland , but the question is American invaded or not Iraq????
They are invaded or "saver"?
Think about and see around and imagine if your contry are invadaded and soldiers enter in your house in the middle of night, have tanks and APCs in front of school of yours sons. Dis you like the scene??? This is iraq today!!!!!!!!!
Think about

[UoUo]

Don´t have people in France ou Ukraine or Poland that agree nazi invasion?In Poland? No.

Poland was the only occupied country during the WWII without nazi-collaborator government. None of Polish politician agreed to cooperate with German occupiers. No-one.

Hmmm...you can also say that about the people in poland during the nazy occupied?

[George W. Bush]

The Polish people were more than eager to give up their Jews to the Nazis

[REMOV]

Hmmm...you can also say that about the people in poland during the nazy occupied?Of course - not. There were traitors and heroes, fallen souls and brave ones. But - the fact is that the Polish had no collabor-government at all, and the Polish underground army was the largest in Europe.

No Pole agreed the German occupation. We fought 123 years to regained (in 1918) our independence, and we REALLY didn't like any occupants at any time, trust me.

BTW - Poland is the country which suffered most in proportion to its population with 6 028 000 deaths, equivalent to 17.2% of its population. There is no family which didn't lose somebody during the war.

[REMOV]

The Polish people were more than eager to give up their Jews to the NazisReally? And that's why they have most trees at Yad Vashem? Thats why there in Poland was only underground organization (Zegota) in occupied Europe found only to help the Jews.

[Javehn]

I must ask forginess in behalf of my younger and eager colleagues in here .
That matter is very controversial how ever , and needs to be debated by another means .

Have you noticed that this thread has been "hijacted" far away from it's original matter ? Happends a lot in here somehow .

[Andrekid]

Where is the means of discussion?

[Andrekid]

Sorry,
Where is the right means of discussion

[2Sheds_Jackson]

SAVE????
You are crazy???
The USA invaded Iraq without a UN accept!!!!!!!! creat in Iraq a "new palestine" with new possible young men that now see the Us soldiers as the gilt of death of friends and parents. And this men and women in the furture could be new bomb-men and new terrorists. This invasion is note a legal act and in the background of it , have many lies and politicoal and monetary interests

Since when does the US take orders from the panty waists at the UN? The UN can't even decide what color to paint thier gender-neutral bathrooms. Who needs them.

It's the UN that needs us - name a major UN operation without us. The UN is a joke. most of the countries in the UN are sh*tholes that civilized people wouldn't be caught dead in. Hopeless, worthless, and contributing nothing but another suckling mouth to the West. Syria on the security council? Give me a break.

You also act as if all invasions are bad. The Allies invaded Normandy in WWII. Was that bad? For the Germans, yes it was. So this similarly points out why the US going into Iraq is bad for you. It's contrary to what you'd like to see happen.

[Kingpin]

It's the UN that needs us - name a major UN operation without us. The UN is a joke. most of the countries in the UN are sh*tholes that civilized people wouldn't be caught dead in. Hopeless, worthless, and contributing nothing but another suckling mouth to the West. Syria on the security council? Give me a break.


Every operation which UN perform without USA usually simply doesn't receive media attention. Nobody talked in headnews about UN actions in Somalia until US didn't join the party. :)

[Andrekid]

Man, give me a break!!!!!!!
UN is legal represent of internacional cummunity,and what´s the problem of Syria make part od securit consil. Syria has the same rights of USA and others contries. If the process is slow is the consequence of democracy and legality. If you acuse Syria of a terror country , the USA give money and weapons to Saddam in 80´s and give money and to the Bin laden. the diference is who have the power and who manipulate the press and public
The UN depends of USA as depends of others countries.
All inlegal invagian and without aprove of UN and international community is bad. The D day is a operation in a war , and not a invasion that occur in inlegal form to the international laws.

[Marmot1]

What up?

You must read more books of history my friend!!!!!
I will send you a bibliografic references
Don´t have people in France ou Ukraine or Poland that agree nazi invasion???????
Is the same thing in Iraq, I agree that Saddan is a criminal, but this isn´t support a invasion and where are the mass destruction weapons in Iraq?????
Anybody know????
Now you send me a item, telling that in Vietnam, the VC are terrorists? and the USA don´t invade the Vietnam???????

well in poland ppl started guerilla fight 2 days after official capitul;ation of last polish unit... and if we come to ucraine...there situation was different sincew ukrain was under soviet rule many ppl there aporiciated german ocupation,example SS battalion "Nachtigal" was made of ukrainians... they hoped that under gremans they will have inndependent country...but it was only hope... btw later in the war this battalion before was disbanded was accused of various war crimes...

and for you who thin that your country was't shamed by SS there were various SS units from division to battalion from finnland and in general scandinasiw SS division Viking... (one of the tank aces of this division Ola Olsen :-) destroyed 5 russian tanks on the road like 2 miles from my house :-) ) there was ss division Wallon made of french and belgian there was croatian , hungarian, dutch, spanish, romanian,russian (RONA), estonian,Latvian,and there was even the American SS company... only one but it was also one hindus company, and various smalle units.... as far as i know there wasn't any polish (100% sure)and czech (80% sure)SS unit.

[Marmot1]

The Polish people were more than eager to give up their Jews to the NazisReally? And that's why they have most trees at Yad Vashem? Thats why there in Poland was only underground organization (Zegota) in occupied Europe found only to help the Jews.
and ppl you must remember that polish polulation of jews was largest in europe so of course there were more examples of ppl who gave up jews to germans since there were more jews in poland.... and some examples of that were since in years 1939-1941 part of polland was occupied by russians and many jews were in comunist administration on this teritory so when germans invaded this part in june 1941 ppl give them up not as a jews but as a comunists... but if u compare to total population this examples were very rare...

Loses in jewish population (%means jews that were exterminated):

przed wojną=before war po wojnie=after war

Irleland - (przed wojną 4,000, po wojnie 4,000) 0%
Great Britain - (przed wojną 350,000, po wojnie 350,000) 0%
Spain - (przed wojną 4,000, po wojnie 4,000) 0%
Turkey - (przed wojną 50,000, po wojnie 50,000) 0%
Sweden - (przed wojną 8,000, po wojnie 8,000) 0%
Denmark - (przed wojną 7,000, po wojnie 7,000) 0%
France - (przed wojną 320,000, po wojnie 230,000) 28%
Belgium - (przed wojną 85,000, po wojnie 61,000) 28%
Holland - (przed wojną 140,000, po wojnie 35,000) 75%
Luksemburg - (przed wojną 2,000, po wojnie 1,300) 35%
Switzerland - (przed wojną 20,000, po wojnie 20,000) 0%
Norway - (przed wojną 2,000, po wojnie 1,200) 40%
III Reich - (przed wojną 230,000, po wojnie 50,000) 78%
Austria - (przed wojną 80,000, po wojnie 15,000) 81%
Czechoslovakia - (przed wojną 315,000, po wojnie 45,000) 86%
Italy - (przed wojną 45,000, po wojnie 37,000) 17%
Poland - (przed wojną 3,250,000, po wojnie 250,000) 92%
Hungary - (przed wojną 400,000, po wojnie 100,000) 75%
Jugoslavia - (przed wojną 75,000, po wojnie 15,000) 80%
Greece - (przed wojną 75,000, po wojnie 10,000) 87%
Romania - (przed wojną 800,000, po wojnie 450,000) 44%
Bulgaria - (przed wojną 60,000, po wojnie 49,000) 18%
Soviet union - (przed wojną 2,800,000, po wojnie 1,600,000) 43%
Lithuania - (przed wojną 155,000, po wojnie 20,000) 87%
Latva - (przed wojną 95,000, po wojnie 10,000) 90%
Total - (przed wojną 10,092,000, po wojnie ok. 4,000,000) 61%

as you see polish population of jews was biggest in europe they were almost 10% of polish citizens before war....in countries where were only couple thousands of jews it was easier to hide but in poland it ws imposible to hide 10% of ppl its why this population was so badly exterminated...[/b]

[Fioraon]

Atleast they caught the bastards


Why are they bastards?

Because they target not only our troops who are ultimately there to improve Iraq but also innocent civilians and anybody remotely sympathetic to America or the coalition.

This is war, and the reasoning behind both sides is subjective and questionable. To the USA, this is Liberation, to Iraqis, this is Invasion.

The war is interpreted very differently; even this judgment cannot be made in entirety.

Really? You speak for the majority of Iraq? Idiot.

[usa320]

Andrekid sucks nearly as bad as ****mus...wait...actually...worse.

****mus is so dumb and predictable hes funny, hes your typical 14 year old pimply face, counterstrike playing airsofting punk.

But andrekid, hes just a moron.

[NcDeuce]

This is war, and the reasoning behind both sides is subjective and questionable. To the USA, this is Liberation, to Iraqis, this is Invasion.

To the Iraqis, this is invasion? From all of the guys I have spoken to that have been there, the majority of the Iraqi population has embraced the Allied forces. Quit watching your Jane Fonda shi*.

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/gulf_war_2_iraqi_freedom_army_special_forces/asdlsad092.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/gulf_war_2_iraqi_freedom_army_infantry_divisions/infantry122.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/gulf_war_2_iraqi_freedom_marines/usmc281_001.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/gulf_war_2_iraqi_freedom_marines/usmc282_001.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/gulf_war_2_iraqi_freedom_marines/usmc277_001.jpg


That's funny, last time I checked, most iraqis were pretty pi***d off by the way the US governed the country.


You are wrong. Watch your word selection next time. Most Iraqis welcome the Americans. Some are unhappy about being liberated by the Allies.

[FallenAngel]

^ word TF. Might I add that those "some" who don't like the liberation are those who HAD power but now don't. They were the ones who were the oppressors for 30 years and now fear that they will be the ones who are now oppressed. ;)

[Andrekid]

Man, I´m not a moron!!!!
I´m only a man that don´t defend USA when it do a mistake.
And USA320, you are a ignorant man that must start to read more or see others news channels!!!!!!!
Try BBC ,
you must stop to write bull ****. OK!!!! If you don´t have anything good and construtive to this discussion. shut up!!!!!!
thanks

[Marmot1]

You are wrong. Watch your word selection next time. Most Iraqis welcome the Americans. Some are unhappy about being liberated by the Allies.

Are you sure??? maybe it is like this....

Some Iraqis welcome the Americans. Most are unhappy about being liberated by the Allies.

or maybe...

Some Iraqis welcome the Americans. Some are unhappy about being liberated by the Allies.And Some have this deep in.... who holds the power as long as they can live peacefuly and survive.

[Andrekid]

Thanks Marmot , good words !!!!

[Marmot1]

[][][][] [].....[]
[].....[] []..[]
[].....[] [][]
[].....[] []..[]
[][][][] [].....[]

lets back to Stryker no more off topic ****talking!!!!!

[gaboki]

lets just get back on topic...

[Andrekid]

The Striker don´t received extra protection against RPG?

[Vance]

Of course it does, and it works wonders.

[Operation Ivy]

The Striker don´t received extra protection against RPG?

This guy is cracking me up rofl

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Man, give me a break!!!!!!!
UN is legal represent of internacional cummunity,and what´s the problem of Syria make part od securit consil. Syria has the same rights of USA and others contries. If the process is slow is the consequence of democracy and legality. If you acuse Syria of a terror country , the USA give money and weapons to Saddam in 80´s and give money and to the Bin laden. the diference is who have the power and who manipulate the press and public
The UN depends of USA as depends of others countries.
All inlegal invagian and without aprove of UN and international community is bad. The D day is a operation in a war , and not a invasion that occur in inlegal form to the international laws.

There is no "international community". The purpose of each nation's government is to promote its own interests. The fanciful notion that there's some shadow community that ensures order and civility is comforting...but not realistic. When it comes right down to it, each nation is alone. The UN is not responsible to protect anybody - that is the responsibility of each nations government.

Being on the security council is not a "right". I mean, why not put Iceland on the council. Or Camaroon? Members of the security council are large, powerful nations - with an interest in fostering stability and peace. Somehow, Syria does not spring to mind.

What makes one invasion legal and another illegal? The UN is not some kind of sanctioning body that "legalizes" anything. I think a better word would be moral or ethical. Was it a morally or ethically justified invasion. I'd say yes. Saddam would say no. Evidently you would say no also. That doesn't put you in very good company, eh?

War and armed conflict in general are last resorts used when talking fails. How do you morally, ethically or legally justify blowing the sh*t out of anything. I don't think anybody can. It just has to be done sometimes.

My apologies for diverting the topic here....I know this started with the Stryker.

[FallenAngel]

The Striker don´t received extra protection against RPG?

It does, but considering this one was blown up by a land mine (basically what a 'roadside bomb' is) might negate that protection ;)

[ShakesFIST]

I was there during that rocket attack. It was one of many to come. They had terrible accuracy though. I remember one night just sitting outside and watching the rockets streak over at night. FOB Pacesetter is an old iraqi air base so we lived in the concrete bunkers. During those attacks we didnt "take up defensive positions" we just did our thing and got ready for if they called us up. That whole perimeter is surrounded my M109 Paladins with 155mm guns and a .50 cal or Mk19. Oh and we never caught the right guys on that. It was just the people who happened to be in the area...

[aartamen]

Atleast they caught the bastards


Why are they bastards?

Because they are illigitimate children of a mofo and a goat.

[aartamen]

There's a very provocative article in the last SoF. I think it's called Tracks or Threads. You can up-armor a dozen M113's for the cost of one Stryker (3.3 million). There are tens of thousands of M113's ready to go. Strykers were not designed to be patrol vehicles and damage sponges.

[gilgoul]

There's a very provocative article in the last SoF. I think it's called Tracks or Threads. You can up-armor a dozen M113's for the cost of one Stryker (3.3 million). There are tens of thousands of M113's ready to go. Strykers were not designed to be patrol vehicles and damage sponges.

Do you think the M113 is?
Even uparmoured the m113 is not that cool as a patrol vehicule.
Not talking about the rgular one, pierced by almost everything on the sides and roof, voluminous, slow, and so freaking noisy.
You want to patrol in really ****ty area`s? Take tanks, heavy tabks, and ICV made out of tanks.
This all thing about the stryker is a joke, cause this vehicle doesn`t seem to be that bad, and don`t forget, you haven`t deployed any m113 on patrol, and it is not for nothing.
That the project manager lied about it`s airbrne capacity is possible, but it is not the point right now.
It seems that people are trying to mown a football field with a pair of scissors here, the stryker(LAV3) is not a bad vehicle, but a vehivle of this size and weight cannot withstand heavy IED`s and even advanced RPG`s. Even MBT`s don`t.
So if you want to be protected completely, start to hang around in 150 tons APC`s, hoping that the "insurgent" didn`t place a 200kg charge under the road.

[aartamen]

I did not write the article, but the author makes a lot of good points. His main is not even about the LAV III but the Humvees. M113A3 (not Vietnam era M113) by several orders of magnitude better for the patrolling in those circumstances. The noise is not an issue, the insurgents seems to have very good intelligence, the reactive armor packs are pretty good at defeating RPG's and a hell of a lot better than anything you can strap on a utility vehicle. M113's are already available and many times cheaper than Strykers. Nothing is full-proof. M113's are used for patrols where available. A lot of people die when their HMMWV tip over. Another article in the same issue calls them "Death Vagons"

If it was my personal choice I'd choose Stryker over M113 or Humvee. But if it was my choice as a commander to have 10 Strykers or 30 M113 with reactive armor, I'd go with the latter.


By the way this is not the first but the second Stryker lost to enemy action. The first was lost on 3/28/04

[BadKarma26]

You talk about up-armored packages that were designed to stop armor piercing weapons. A typical IED is not armor piercing, but the concussion and heat created by it are usually enough to overwhelm most modern day armor. So you can't talk about adding rails and other crap like that to make the Stryker more survivable because they aren't gonna do sh*t to a dead camel thats packed full of semtex.

[gilgoul]

I did not write the article, but the author makes a lot of good points. His main is not even about the LAV III but the Humvees. M113A3 (not Vietnam era M113) by several orders of magnitude better for the patrolling in those circumstances. The noise is not an issue, the insurgents seems to have very good intelligence, the reactive armor packs are pretty good at defeating RPG's and a hell of a lot better than anything you can strap on a utility vehicle. M113's are already available and many times cheaper than Strykers. Nothing is full-proof. M113's are used for patrols where available. A lot of people die when their HMMWV tip over. Another article in the same issue calls them "Death Vagons"

If it was my personal choice I'd choose Stryker over M113 or Humvee. But if it was my choice as a commander to have 10 Strykers or 30 M113 with reactive armor, I'd go with the latter.

By the way this is not the first but the second Stryker lost to enemy action. The first was lost on 3/28/04


I understand your choice, and know only the "nagmash", that is no more than a uparmored m113a1, with relatively good Armour piercing round resistance, and even some correct rpg holding, as long at it is not a 90 degree angle and not too advanced.
Still, my point was that none, stryker, m113, hummer and so on can withstand a 30kg HE blast underneath or on direct proximity, even less a 150 to 200kg like we saw in gaza, that destroyed the safest MBT, the merkava3.
That is where you have to make a choice, i you ask me, I`d rather not bein any of these vehicles at all, but at last choice would prefer the achzarit, tracked, built on a T55 base, not comletely proofed but able towithstand a rpg7 impact on the side, as long as it doesn`t go between the wheels. After that, let`s pray bro, there`s nothing more to do.

[Deuterium]

Deleted my dumb-as* post.

[Hullebullen]

Deut, I'm not trying to be a smartass or anything but you do know that Duci made that post like over half a year ago and it's been some time since he left, right?

[Deuterium]

Deut, I'm not trying to be a smartass or anything but you do know that Duci made that post like over half a year ago and it's been some time since he left, right?

Yes I am an idiot. Thankyou. Dohhhhh!!!!

[Durandal]

http://www.armytimes.com/content/editorial/editart/122203front5.jpg

Soldiers on Saturday investigate the burned hulk of a Stryker destroyed by an improvised explosive device during an attack at Forward Operating Base Pacesetter. Guerilla forces ambushed a Stryker patrol near Samarra, destroying one vehicle — the first Stryker to be lost to hostile fire. The four-soldier crew escaped, but one soldier was injured in the attack.

:(

Crew survived..that is what is important.

[Hellman109]

It's the UN that needs us - name a major UN operation without us. The UN is a joke. most of the countries in the UN are sh*tholes that civilized people wouldn't be caught dead in. Hopeless, worthless, and contributing nothing but another suckling mouth to the West. Syria on the security council? Give me a break.


East Timor.

Pwned....

the US didnt want to get involved as it wasnt important to them, Australia was the main country involved, and still is.

It wasnt minor either, they voted for independence from Indonesia, and the Indonesian police and military went nuts killing pro-independece supporters, Australia and the UN interveined and took control of the country, handed over control to a Timor elected government, and the UN now protects Timor.

[aartamen]

You talk about up-armored packages that were designed to stop armor piercing weapons. A typical IED is not armor piercing, but the concussion and heat created by it are usually enough to overwhelm most modern day armor. So you can't talk about adding rails and other crap like that to make the Stryker more survivable because they aren't gonna do sh*t to a dead camel thats packed full of semtex.

A big IED is difficult to assemble and emplace. Would you run your APC over a dead camel today in Iraq? The hose anything suspicios with .50's way before they get close. A smaller IED will take out a car (HMMWV) much easier than a Stryker, which can run with some wheels missing.

[BadKarma26]

You dont need to run over anything to get blown up. I've read of IED's being placed in palm trees, trash, or buried underneath the ground. My point is that you can't blame the fact these things are being disabled on the fact that they don't have the latest armor mod; some of these bombs can't be stopped by the armor on any vehicle. Period.

[aartamen]

I do not blame vehicles. That would be illogical in extreme. I disagree with certain decisions that caused a 3.3 million hi-tech scout vehicle to become a battle-bus, while we have tens of thousands of those in storage.

[BadKarma26]

What we need is more actionable intel so we dont have to conduct routine patrols with big lumbering armored vehicles that are easy to track through an urban environment. That way we just send in a squad or platoon, get in, kill or capture the people and get out. Let the Iraqi's patrol the streets.

[aartamen]

As you might have noticed number of the US casualties dropped off sharply. I do not know what to attribute that to other than a huge drop in our OpTempo. The situation could not have improved that much over such a short period of time. There were a number of attacks over the weekend. No Americans died.

[BadKarma26]

A U.S. soldier was killed Saturday by a roadside bomb in northern Iraq. No other details of the attack were available.

courtesy of CNN.COM

[aartamen]

Missed that, God rest his soul, but still the rate of casualties is much lower now.

Here's a very interesting site on the subject - www.icasualties.org

In July there were some 36 US casualties, 25 combat related over 18 days. 1.4 a day.
In June - 1.23, May - 2, April - 4.2, March - 1.17, February - 0.5, January - 1.26 And it goes on with spikes and troughs. Which means I am wrong, there does not seem to be any statistical decrease in casualties.

[BadKarma26]

I wish it was me over there.

[OldRecon]

Atleast they caught the bastards


Why are they bastards?


get the f*** out of here ducimus

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

To kill without passion or fervour towards the enemy is the hallmark of a level headed soldier... right?? :|

[OldRecon]

There's a very provocative article in the last SoF. I think it's called Tracks or Threads. You can up-armor a dozen M113's for the cost of one Stryker (3.3 million). There are tens of thousands of M113's ready to go. Strykers were not designed to be patrol vehicles and damage sponges.

Do you think the M113 is?
Even uparmoured the m113 is not that cool as a patrol vehicule.
Not talking about the rgular one, pierced by almost everything on the sides and roof, voluminous, slow, and so freaking noisy.
You want to patrol in really ****ty area`s? Take tanks, heavy tabks, and ICV made out of tanks.
This all thing about the stryker is a joke, cause this vehicle doesn`t seem to be that bad, and don`t forget, you haven`t deployed any m113 on patrol, and it is not for nothing.
That the project manager lied about it`s airbrne capacity is possible, but it is not the point right now.
It seems that people are trying to mown a football field with a pair of scissors here, the stryker(LAV3) is not a bad vehicle, but a vehivle of this size and weight cannot withstand heavy IED`s and even advanced RPG`s. Even MBT`s don`t.
So if you want to be protected completely, start to hang around in 150 tons APC`s, hoping that the "insurgent" didn`t place a 200kg charge under the road.

I'll exchange a VAB anytime for an M-113 ;).
VAB hopeless off road in Southern Lebanon.
the SISU 6x6 (or Patria as it's called nowdays) somewhat better though not comparable to a tracked APC.
Wheeled APC's much better for road patrol and convoy duty.
Prolonged use of tracked APC's also tend to induce material fatigue cracks in the hulls off the vehicles around drive train joints, bottom plates and corner joints, through the inevitable shaking imposed on the hull by the track drive train.

[gilgoul]

There's a very provocative article in the last SoF. I think it's called Tracks or Threads. You can up-armor a dozen M113's for the cost of one Stryker (3.3 million). There are tens of thousands of M113's ready to go. Strykers were not designed to be patrol vehicles and damage sponges.

Do you think the M113 is?
Even uparmoured the m113 is not that cool as a patrol vehicule.
Not talking about the rgular one, pierced by almost everything on the sides and roof, voluminous, slow, and so freaking noisy.
You want to patrol in really ****ty area`s? Take tanks, heavy tabks, and ICV made out of tanks.
This all thing about the stryker is a joke, cause this vehicle doesn`t seem to be that bad, and don`t forget, you haven`t deployed any m113 on patrol, and it is not for nothing.

That the project manager lied about it`s airbrne capacity is possible, but it is not the point right now.
It seems that people are trying to mown a football field with a pair of scissors here, the stryker(LAV3) is not a bad vehicle, but a vehivle of this size and weight cannot withstand heavy IED`s and even advanced RPG`s. Even MBT`s don`t.
So if you want to be protected completely, start to hang around in 150 tons APC`s, hoping that the "insurgent" didn`t place a 200kg charge under the road.

I'll exchange a VAB anytime for an M-113 ;).
VAB hopeless off road in Southern Lebanon.
the SISU 6x6 (or Patria as it's called nowdays) somewhat better though not comparable to a tracked APC.
Wheeled APC's much better for road patrol and convoy duty.
Prolonged use of tracked APC's also tend to induce material fatigue cracks in the hulls off the vehicles around drive train joints, bottom plates and corner joints, through the inevitable shaking imposed on the hull by the track drive train.

You know what, i`ve spent only two days in a VAB, and it was enough, my vehicle was a VBL (not top notvh for protection either), but at least, sitting shot gun is pretty fun, and the all terrain capacities of the VBL (especially the amphibious one :P kind of make do for some of it`s flaws)

Quite honestly, i`d rather not ride at all in an APC, wouldn`t mind a IFV, better protection and some fire power for the cover, something like the british warior seems good, but for troop transportation, considering the vulnerability of APC`s to even low tech rpg`s, i don`t really see the point of packing 6 to 8 guys and wait for the next IED or RPG that will terminate them in a single shot.
I`d rather see two teams of four in two converted tanks, providing mobility and protection, and being able to protect against prpelled grenades and rockets.(ATGM is an other story :( )

[ZeroPositive]

ouch sorry to see it happen to the Allies but I guess it would have happened sooner or later :S

[J-10]

The rockets were propped up against a small berm at roughly a 45-degree angle, some held in place with dead tree branches.

“They knew the exact angle they had to get them at,” he said. “Pretty smart. Whoever did it took their time.”


Hehe, “low-tech but effective.” ;)