Why you shouldn't bash the Green Berets

[Pulsar]

http://news.tbo.com/news/MGBZ2YRID9E.html

[Thor]

Who is bashing them?

[Vivelamorte]

What I'd also like to know is what's so excitingly new about what's in the article?

[Silent 6]

There's no bashing of Army Special Forces in that article. It's a short article that repeats much of the information that is available in books about the Special Forces.
Read Douglas Waller's "The Commandos" for a lengthy tale of Robin Sage.

[fantassin]

Who is bashing them?

The Australian SASR in that thread....as quoted by the Pacific edition of Time Magazine.


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=49698&start=48

The Australian's views on US SF and military in general seems to be pretty low according to those articles;

Quote:

Perhaps the only weak link was the sixth man on the patrol, a Green Beret soldier on exchange from the U.S. Some troopers thought he was not up to SAS standards - a shortcoming that became more obvious as time went on

Quote:

But by the end of that first mission, the Green Beret's presence was causing friction. "He had broken the radio before going out,'' says the patrol leader. "He had snapped off a knob and was going to use pliers to turn it on and off.'' The patrol leader was not going to tolerate such sloppiness again. For the next mission, he replaced the American with a young signaller who had undergone SAS training, but had not passed the grueling selection course.

Quote:

But in Afghanistan, Australian special forces were something of a novelty to their US commanders. On one map in the main US command center in Afghanistan, they were denoted by a cut-out picture of Australian celebrity crocodile hunter, Steve Irwin. "It was pretty disheartening, says one trooper. "The way they did use us was very inappropriate.''

Quote:

From interviews with former soldiers and one of the taskforce's senior intelligence officers, Time can reveal how US commanders underestimated - and underutilized - the SAS's core ability to go deep behind enemy lines and gather key intelligence. The soldiers say US commanders lost key opportunities to take out senior al-Qaeda leaders by forcing the SAS to occupy mere "blocking" duties during one key battle. However the US perceptions were ultimately reversed after the SAS mounted an extraordinary mission to locate and coordinate an attack on one of al-Qaeda most senior leaders.


Quote:

"The Americans couldn't comprehend we would have the ability to go into areas for protracted times to do our strategic roles,'' says former Afghanistan SAS taskforce intelligence chief Adam, who spoke exclusively to Time. "It's not what they do, because they think you go in for a day or two days, and do your business and get out,'' says Adam, who does not want his surname used for security reasons. "It wasn't until after certain high-tempo combat engagements during (Operation) Anaconda that we kind of worked out that we can do better than this.'' Similar distinctions were noted amongst the lower ranks. "They were body-builder types, full of steroids, some of them,'' says one SAS Afghan veteran. "They could only manage a couple of days. We could go for weeks at a time.''

[Mr Hat]

Who is bashing them?


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=49698&start=48

The Australian's views on US SF and military in general seems to be pretty low according to those articles;

Quote:

Perhaps the only weak link was the sixth man on the patrol, a Green Beret soldier on exchange from the U.S. Some troopers thought he was not up to SAS standards - a shortcoming that became more obvious as time went on

"The Americans couldn't comprehend we would have the ability to go into areas for protracted times to do our strategic roles,'' says former Afghanistan SAS taskforce intelligence chief Adam, who spoke exclusively to Time. "It's not what they do, because they think you go in for a day or two days, and do your business and get out,'' says Adam, who does not want his surname used for security reasons. "It wasn't until after certain high-tempo combat engagements during (Operation) Anaconda that we kind of worked out that we can do better than this.'' Similar distinctions were noted amongst the lower ranks. "They were body-builder types, full of steroids, some of them,'' says one SAS Afghan veteran. "They could only manage a couple of days. We could go for weeks at a time.''

:roll: Thats like the most obvious thing ever. SAS standards are very high indeed.

Well this Green Beret, might be not be up to the standards of the Australian SASR . Can be true, but for example, not every special forces soldier is EXCELLENT in everything, they basically GO ABOVE THE BENCHMARK in everyhting a soldier needs to know, but somehow "some" Special Forces soldiers tends to be good in Marksmanship and Concealment etc... but not "really" that good in long distance runs. Damn... :roll:

[Lokos]

SAS all the way.

Aussie, Aussie, Aussie!

*somewhere in the distance*

Oi! Oi! Oi!

Lokos

[Sloppy Joe2]

an article posted in SOF
Snuffy meets the SpecOps


Kenn Miller, author of Tiger the LRRP Dog, recently wrote us:

I spent most of yesterday with a sensible young E-4 Cav scout just back from Iraq after a tour with 1/7th Cav, 1st Cav Division. It was very interesting to hear him talk about his war and his Army -- which in many ways is very different from what we knew, but in many ways very much the same.

His take on the U.S. special operations people he had contact with was very interesting. At one time or another, his troop worked as transport and/or blocking force for a SEAL Team, Delta, and 5th Group, and one platoon from his troop spent a couple months or so on detached duty as transport and back-up for an ODA. His entire squadron loathed the SEALs, who came in driving dark (and conspicuously intimidating) vehicles that looked like something the crew at Pimp My Ride had customized for Darth Vader. They were arrogant and contemptuous of everyone who wasn’t a SEAL, even to the point of cutting in lines in the PX, and they were very trigger-happy. At one point they were working in his squadron’s sector in Baghdad, trying to sneak around in the city, and of course someone saw them -- as someone is bound to do when a group of men is making a big show of sneaking around in a city where people actually live. When they realized they’d been seen and felt themselves compromised, they opened fi re 360, and killed a civilian, wounded another, and considered these legitimate kills.

This was a sector that 1/7 worked in regularly, and where they had very good relations with the residents -- until the SEALs came along and acted like Bob Kerrey’s (D-Nebraska) squad allegedly did on that night recon that came to light a few years back, overreacting when they discovered that their cloak of invisibility wasn’t working, and hosing every moving thing in sight.

It took lots of work, lots of Civic Action and perfect behavior to overcome what the frogs had done. “Delta was something else,” he said. “They wore civilian clothes, some of them beards, some clean-shaven. They were slightly aloof, but not out of any personal need to be superior, just because they couldn’t talk in detail about what they were up to.” They impressed the hell out of the Cav scouts, and afterwards complimented them for keeping just enough distance from them when they were operating, saying that too often conventional troops tried to stay too close.

The “regular” SF, these Cav guys absolutely loved. This young E-4 said, “the Green Berets were incredibly competent and knowledgeable and very willing to share what they knew.” They lived very well and the platoon temporarily co-located with them, lived like kings and were treated like brothers by these Green Berets, and the Iraqis seemed to really trust them. Whenever one of the Cav guys thanked them for anything, the SF guys would say something along the lines of “Nah, we don’t really mean to be nice guys. It’s just an act we’re putting on because we’re very under-strength and over-tasked, and so we’re trying to recruit good men away from their units. Any of you guys want to come to SF, you’ll fi nd out that we’re all real assholes.” Obviously, this left the Cav scouts feeling complimented, and not believing a word of it.

Just thought you might want to know what sort of impression your successors are making on at least part of the regular army. The impression they left on the 101st LRS [Long Range Surveillance] they spent some time with back at Campbell last year was even deeper -- but then, the LRS guys knew 5th Group very well and already liked them. But when 5th Group helped them do some work with the Kurds... well, that was a recruiting ploy that worked so well a third of the unit was in Selection or the Q course within two months of returning from Iraq. That little taste of the side of the SF mission that SF didn’t have in common with the Ranger community (which roughly includes LRS) really struck a chord with them. http://www.sofmag.com/display.do?id=243
there is a certain amount of bashing in america about how seals are the **** and who the hell are special forces? :lol: i think this has mainly been instilled by hollywood but this article gave me great insight into the issue. now on the issue of how SF compares to other special operations forces from around the world i do not know enough on the topic to comment. :)

[Erik2a4]

Just as a general rule, there are studs and duds in every organization.

One example does not characterize an organization.

I've worked with ODAs that I thought were defintely a cut above. And an ODA that I thought was sloppy and substandard.

Remember, a former 18X who just got his long-tab is not equal to an 18Z with twenty years in ;)

[mudbunny]

I would deff. agree with this article based on my experiences. I think that ODA's missions require them to be of a higher intellectual standard, where as SEAL's are usually just required to go in and scout, anti-terrorism, or plant explosives. A-team guys that I have met, without a doubt, impressed the hell out of me, especially the medics. The SEAl's that I have met were total pricks and thought that they could do no wrong. SF guys are of the highest physical AND mental caliber. To put it simply, they are PROFESSIONAL's, plain and simple.

[Trigger]

an article posted in SOF
Snuffy meets the SpecOps


Kenn Miller, author of Tiger the LRRP Dog, recently wrote us:

I spent most of yesterday with a sensible young E-4 Cav scout just back from Iraq after a tour with 1/7th Cav, 1st Cav Division. It was very interesting to hear him talk about his war and his Army -- which in many ways is very different from what we knew, but in many ways very much the same.

His take on the U.S. special operations people he had contact with was very interesting. At one time or another, his troop worked as transport and/or blocking force for a SEAL Team, Delta, and 5th Group, and one platoon from his troop spent a couple months or so on detached duty as transport and back-up for an ODA. His entire squadron loathed the SEALs, who came in driving dark (and conspicuously intimidating) vehicles that looked like something the crew at Pimp My Ride had customized for Darth Vader. They were arrogant and contemptuous of everyone who wasn’t a SEAL, even to the point of cutting in lines in the PX, and they were very trigger-happy. At one point they were working in his squadron’s sector in Baghdad, trying to sneak around in the city, and of course someone saw them -- as someone is bound to do when a group of men is making a big show of sneaking around in a city where people actually live. When they realized they’d been seen and felt themselves compromised, they opened fi re 360, and killed a civilian, wounded another, and considered these legitimate kills.

This was a sector that 1/7 worked in regularly, and where they had very good relations with the residents -- until the SEALs came along and acted like Bob Kerrey’s (D-Nebraska) squad allegedly did on that night recon that came to light a few years back, overreacting when they discovered that their cloak of invisibility wasn’t working, and hosing every moving thing in sight.

It took lots of work, lots of Civic Action and perfect behavior to overcome what the frogs had done. “Delta was something else,” he said. “They wore civilian clothes, some of them beards, some clean-shaven. They were slightly aloof, but not out of any personal need to be superior, just because they couldn’t talk in detail about what they were up to.” They impressed the hell out of the Cav scouts, and afterwards complimented them for keeping just enough distance from them when they were operating, saying that too often conventional troops tried to stay too close.

The “regular” SF, these Cav guys absolutely loved. This young E-4 said, “the Green Berets were incredibly competent and knowledgeable and very willing to share what they knew.” They lived very well and the platoon temporarily co-located with them, lived like kings and were treated like brothers by these Green Berets, and the Iraqis seemed to really trust them. Whenever one of the Cav guys thanked them for anything, the SF guys would say something along the lines of “Nah, we don’t really mean to be nice guys. It’s just an act we’re putting on because we’re very under-strength and over-tasked, and so we’re trying to recruit good men away from their units. Any of you guys want to come to SF, you’ll fi nd out that we’re all real assholes.” Obviously, this left the Cav scouts feeling complimented, and not believing a word of it.

Just thought you might want to know what sort of impression your successors are making on at least part of the regular army. The impression they left on the 101st LRS [Long Range Surveillance] they spent some time with back at Campbell last year was even deeper -- but then, the LRS guys knew 5th Group very well and already liked them. But when 5th Group helped them do some work with the Kurds... well, that was a recruiting ploy that worked so well a third of the unit was in Selection or the Q course within two months of returning from Iraq. That little taste of the side of the SF mission that SF didn’t have in common with the Ranger community (which roughly includes LRS) really struck a chord with them. http://www.sofmag.com/display.do?id=243
there is a certain amount of bashing in america about how seals are the **** and who the hell are special forces? :lol: i think this has mainly been instilled by hollywood but this article gave me great insight into the issue. now on the issue of how SF compares to other special operations forces from around the world i do not know enough on the topic to comment. :)
Wow. One whole article has given you great insight.
I wish I believed everything I read.

[BlackFlag]

My boss whom was a Green Beret in Nam for three years would beg to differ with the supposed ability to only stay out a couole days at a time. He told me about times where they had to stay in a rainy miserable jungle for weeks at a time. Green Berets are not to be under estimated.

[RGRBOX]

What I'd also like to know is what's so excitingly new about what's in the article?

Triming the course down by 15 weeks... sounds like a **** idea...

[Gordon]

What I'd also like to know is what's so excitingly new about what's in the article?

Triming the course down by 15 weeks... sounds like a **** idea...

And passing more from the same size pool, a little difficult to that without dropping standards.

[RGRBOX]

What I'd also like to know is what's so excitingly new about what's in the article?

Triming the course down by 15 weeks... sounds like a **** idea...

And passing more from the same size pool, a little difficult to that without dropping standards.

X2

[CMNot]

Guys, that SASR article expresses the troopers opinions through a journalist. There in lies the weak link.

If I believed half of what the British press wrote about the SAS, I'd likely think they sprouted wings on their backs when they wanted to fly :roll:

[Sloppy Joe2]

Wow. One whole article has given you great insight.
I wish I believed everything I read. where else will i get information on various special operations? i will take first hand information over tears of the sun anyday p-)

[Roger Rabbit]

Wow. One whole article has given you great insight.
I wish I believed everything I read. where else will i get information on various special operations? i will take first hand information over tears of the sun anyday p-)
Perhaps you should take it with a pinch of salt though?

[Werewolf01]

Guys, that SASR article expresses the troopers opinions through a journalist. There in lies the weak link.

If I believed half of what the British press wrote about the SAS, I'd likely think they sprouted wings on their backs when they wanted to fly :roll:

Whoa whoa whoa! You mean they CAN'T sprout wings?!?!? Next thing I suppose you are going to say is the KSK guys aren't really the result of Lebensborn parents crossed with mermaid DNA by Mengele!

[NcDeuce]

Just as a general rule, there are studs and duds in every organization.

One example does not characterize an organization.

I've worked with ODAs that I thought were defintely a cut above. And an ODA that I thought was sloppy and substandard.

Remember, a former 18X who just got his long-tab is not equal to an 18Z with twenty years in ;)

x2

I just don't know about the 18x program...

[PrincessRAR]

some of you yanks seriously need to pull the finger out.

enough said

[EsoognomEhT]

This article isnt about the Royal Marines? I dont understand what its got to do with Green Berets ;)

[Vivelamorte]

What I'd also like to know is what's so excitingly new about what's in the article?

Triming the course down by 15 weeks... sounds like a **** idea...

And passing more from the same size pool, a little difficult to that without dropping standards.

Oops. that fact evaded me. I didn't read the entire article.

Trimming the course down is a very crap idea. The Army must really be in dire need of SF.

[expat007]

The only drop in standards that I have seen was once the requirement for Morse code was taken out of the 18E course they trimmed some time from that course. The 18B C and D course syllabus have not changed. The time cut from the length of one's stay at SWC is from reducing the wait between phases and revamping the SERE/SUT portion. They have lenghthened SUT to accomodate the extra survival training.

Dont generalize the 18X program as a bunch of teenaged loosers, the ones that have managed to make it through SOPC 1 , selection , SOPC 2 , Phase 2 , Phase 3, Robin Sage and SERE are very well trained and a cut above any troop I ever had the honor of leading in the 101st and the 82nd.The non hackers have for the most part been weeded out and I would gladly sereve operationally with any 18X that has made it through the pipeline.

But Im certain Princess with your extensive Special Operations and all around ninja skills can add some insight as to how one might improve US SF.

[Former Gold Falcon]

But Im certain Princess with your extensive Special Operations and all around ninja skills can add some insight as to how one might improve US SF.

Very nicely put!

T.

[Vivelamorte]

The only drop in standards that I have seen was once the requirement for Morse code was taken out of the 18E course they trimmed some time from that course. The 18B C and D course syllabus have not changed. The time cut from the length of one's stay at SWC is from reducing the wait between phases and revamping the SERE/SUT portion. They have lenghthened SUT to accomodate the extra survival training.

Dont generalize the 18X program as a bunch of teenaged loosers, the ones that have managed to make it through SOPC 1 , selection , SOPC 2 , Phase 2 , Phase 3, Robin Sage and SERE are very well trained and a cut above any troop I ever had the honor of leading in the 101st and the 82nd.The non hackers have for the most part been weeded out and I would gladly sereve operationally with any 18X that has made it through the pipeline.

But Im certain Princess with your extensive Special Operations and all around ninja skills can add some insight as to how one might improve US SF.

Oh well, that's okay then. Dropping Morse probably won't hurt anyone. I thought they'd shortened it by dropping some training elements.

I still have a phone number lying around here on my desk. I've been thinking about 18X since last year August.

BTW, who's a Princess?

[11F5S]

The current SF pipeline is the best it has ever been.....those outsiders who say otherwise are blowing ignorant smoke out of their asses.

As far as training new guys off the street...It's nothing new....SF has done this for most of it's 53 years of existence.

[MaDuce]

This article isnt about the Royal Marines? I dont understand what its got to do with Green Berets ;)
Wow and people acuse Amercians of being over patriotic :roll:

[ronin2172]

BTW, who's a Princess?

Why he's the aussie ubermensch of SF who does no wrong. He has more skills and knowledge in his pinky finger than the entire US special ops community has ever possesed. You don't believe me...just ask him! p-)


In all seriousness his name is PrincessRAR....look up his posts...they are enlightning... :roll:

[Vivelamorte]

Can anybody tell me the british equivilant of the Green Berets? Paras?

SAS, at least in a lot of regards.

[JTAR7242]

Quote:

But in Afghanistan, Australian special forces were something of a novelty to their US commanders. On one map in the main US command center in Afghanistan, they were denoted by a cut-out picture of Australian celebrity crocodile hunter, Steve Irwin. "It was pretty disheartening, says one trooper. "The way they did use us was very inappropriate.''

This is the funny.


The rest just sounds like butthurt and posturing.

I've had the pleasure of working with Navy SEALs before and they are among the most professional troops out there. I'm sure they have their comparative ****bags too, it's just a fact of life you'll never escape anywhere in life, whether as a civilian or in the military.

[Vivelamorte]

The current SF pipeline is the best has ever been.....those outsiders who say otherwise are blowing ignorant smoke out of their asses.


Is there a specific reason? Aftermath of 9/11? Would be of interest to me! Cheers.

[Graspol]

It is generally known that the US.SF train differently from ,let's say, their European counterparts. The Americans tend to go for the bodybuilder type of operator. The most European SF's (and Commonwealthtrain for a more average(but enough muscular) agile operator. The vision of the European SF is that the far most important thing is stamina. So it basically means that your legs and back have to be 100% fit. After all it's the legs that have to carry you and your ****e anywhere. What SF guy needs arms like Rambo anyway.How high are the chances that you get in real man to man combat? Plus the fact that muscle tissue asks a lot of oxygen. And oxygen is what you need when you have to walk for 30 miles or plus. I've seen some American SF blokes. They were strong as oxes,but they sucked at marching,not to mention speedmarching.

I hope i made my point about the difference of approach of SF standards American vs European/Commonwealth

Cheers!
Danny

[PrincessRAR]

But Im certain Princess with your extensive Special Operations and all around ninja skills can add some insight as to how one might improve US SF.

Very nicely put!

T.

i dont claim to know the fixes - i can just pick the faults ;) nice defensive attitude though..

[PrincessRAR]

The current SF pipeline is the best has ever been.....those outsiders who say otherwise are blowing ignorant smoke out of their asses.

As far as training new guys off the street...It nothing new....SF has done this for most of it's 53 years of existence.

i dont disagree champ! but thats not to say it cant get better - a whole lot better. but atleast now the GB's have found their niche in the SF game of america - becuase face it theres so damn many

[Red]

It is generally known that the US.SF train differently from ,let's say, their European counterparts. The Americans tend to go for the bodybuilder type of operator. The most European SF's (and Commonwealthtrain for a more average(but enough muscular) agile operator. The vision of the European SF is that the far most important thing is stamina. So it basically means that your legs and back have to be 100% fit. After all it's the legs that have to carry you and your ****e anywhere. What SF guy needs arms like Rambo anyway.How high are the chances that you get in real man to man combat? Plus the fact that muscle tissue asks a lot of oxygen. And oxygen is what you need when you have to walk for 30 miles or plus. I've seen some American SF blokes. They were strong as oxes,but they sucked at marching,not to mention speedmarching.

I hope i made my point about the difference of approach of SF standards American vs European/Commonwealth

Cheers!
Danny
The funky comments keep coming.
It is generally known that the US.SF train differently from ,let's say, their European counterparts. The Americans tend to go for the bodybuilder type of operator. The most European SF's (and Commonwealthtrain for a more average(but enough muscular) agile operator. how the hell did you reach this asumption?i doubt it is generally known that the US guys are "bodybuilder types".It is known to you and yours mostly.

[ronin2172]

It is generally known that the US.SF train differently from ,let's say, their European counterparts. The Americans tend to go for the bodybuilder type of operator. The most European SF's (and Commonwealthtrain for a more average(but enough muscular) agile operator. The vision of the European SF is that the far most important thing is stamina. So it basically means that your legs and back have to be 100% fit. After all it's the legs that have to carry you and your ****e anywhere. What SF guy needs arms like Rambo anyway.How high are the chances that you get in real man to man combat? Plus the fact that muscle tissue asks a lot of oxygen. And oxygen is what you need when you have to walk for 30 miles or plus. I've seen some American SF blokes. They were strong as oxes,but they sucked at marching,not to mention speedmarching.

I hope i made my point about the difference of approach of SF standards American vs European/Commonwealth

Cheers!
Danny
The funky comments keep coming.
It is generally known that the US.SF train differently from ,let's say, their European counterparts. The Americans tend to go for the bodybuilder type of operator. The most European SF's (and Commonwealthtrain for a more average(but enough muscular) agile operator. how the hell did you reach this asumption?i doubt it is generally known that the US guys are "bodybuilder types".It is known to you and yours mostly.

Rambo John J.....for we know ALL SF in the states look like he does...

[Vivelamorte]

It is generally known that the US.SF train differently from ,let's say, their European counterparts. The Americans tend to go for the bodybuilder type of operator. The most European SF's (and Commonwealthtrain for a more average(but enough muscular) agile operator. how the hell did you reach this asumption?i doubt it is generally known that the US guys are "bodybuilder types".It is known to you and yours mostly.[/quote]

A bodybuilder type wouldn't be able to pass the assault course, do a LRRP, or other strenuous, arduous stuff. Thus I can't believe Green Berets lack in stamina and endurance.

Although I must say they seem to have a bigger frame than their counterparts in other countries.

[HooyahCQB]

It is generally known that the US.SF train differently from ,let's say, their European counterparts. The Americans tend to go for the bodybuilder type of operator. The most European SF's (and Commonwealthtrain for a more average(but enough muscular) agile operator. The vision of the European SF is that the far most important thing is stamina. So it basically means that your legs and back have to be 100% fit. After all it's the legs that have to carry you and your ****e anywhere. What SF guy needs arms like Rambo anyway.How high are the chances that you get in real man to man combat? Plus the fact that muscle tissue asks a lot of oxygen. And oxygen is what you need when you have to walk for 30 miles or plus. I've seen some American SF blokes. They were strong as oxes,but they sucked at marching,not to mention speedmarching.

I hope i made my point about the difference of approach of SF standards American vs European/Commonwealth

Cheers!
Danny

I disagree. Read up on American SOF training. BUD/S students do calisthenics and running all day long for months. Delta's original training started out just like the SAS's, long hikes with heavy gear in mountainous terrain, timed, but not knowing the time they needed to pass. I met the US Navy Leap Frogs Parachute team several years ago when they did a local airshow. I talked with a few of the SEALs. They looked about a lean 180 lbs.

Do these guys look like bodybuilders? :

http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/webphoto/web_030131-N-8209D-001.jpg


U.S. Navy photo by Photographer's Mate 3rd Class John DeCoursey. (RELEASED)

To others-
Yep, SEALs are also the most unprofessional of American SOF. Take this SEAL for example:
http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/webphoto/web_040506-N-0057D-006.jpg


040506-N-0057D-006 Chantilly, Va. (May 6, 2004) - Lt. Cmdr. Chris Cassidy, left, signs an autograph for Ms. Bianca Baker from Portsmouth, Va., after NASA officially introduced “The Next Generation of Explorers,” NASA’s 2004 Astronaut Candidate Class during a Space Day ceremony hosted at the National Air and Space Museum's Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center in Chantilly, Va. Cassidy, a member of the U.S. Navy’s Sea, Air and Land (SEAL) Team 10 located in Virginia Beach, Va., was selected to begin astronaut training this summer as a Mission Specialist at NASA's Johnson Space Center (JSC) in Houston. U.S. Navy photo by Photographer’s Mate 1st Class Tim Duckworth. (RELEASED)


I mean, they only take unprofessional people at NASA right?

Like someone said earlier, and what Matchanu will tell you, is that every unit has their bad apples.

[ronin2172]

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/Special_Forces-Afghanistan

jeez all you have to do is look and see that the body types run the gamut from barrel chested to seemingly average....

I wish some people would do a little research before they post a 'fact'

[PrincessRAR]

i agree with his comments americans do generally have bigger frames..

as for those two photos ones an officer, and the rest are in training and on cse where you loose most of your body weight, plus their arms are in the air.. - but great posting of misleading pictures..

[duck]

There is a certain task, or more likely multitasks for each military unit, be it "special forces", artillery or signals etc. "Special forces" type guys normally try to avoid open confrontation over a prolonged period and prefer evasive tactics and sudden, short strikes. This means they should pack relatively light, have very good mobility and learn to make themselves "invisible" as far as it is possible & be very good at intelligence gathering.

Other guys in the various militaries train to search & destroy exactly these "special forces" personnel. They can be called MPs or have other designations but the task remains the same.

Btw, cockroaches are toughest,they are the only ones to survive a nuclear winter. p-)

[AlexNenadic]

Delta Force specialises in counter-terrorist operations, in other words hostage rescue and CQB.

Green Berets assume the role of instructors, who train and lead an indigenous force in a fight against the enemy. Examples, Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, Kurds in N. Iraq. But there *are* Special Forces (SF refers to Green Berets) units deployed to Europe that have the exact same mission as Delta, and they are meant to deal with any sudden incidents, when there is no time to deploy the US-based SFOD-D (official Delta designation).

Clear as mud?

[CONSERVATIVE53]

. getting into delta is much harder than becoming a green beret. you have to do a forty mile run across a mountain with gear. in my opinion, the SAS are better than the green berets, but not delta.

[EsoognomEhT]

Can anybody tell me the british equivilant of the Green Berets? Paras?


SAS, at least in a lot of regards.


Delta being worth 10 SAS' of course..?

[ronin2172]

let the **** measuring contest begin.... :roll:

[EsoognomEhT]

;)

[moughoun]

. getting into delta is much harder than becoming a green beret. you have to do a forty mile run across a mountain with gear. in my opinion, the SAS are better than the green berets, but not delta.
opinion's are like asshole's.....everyone has one, at the level that the SAS,SASR,Delta ect play at, there is no "best" all those guy's are around the same, it just so happen's that, that same level is on top of mount Everest compared to everyone else,

[Red]

. getting into delta is much harder than becoming a green beret. you have to do a forty mile run across a mountain with gear. in my opinion, the SAS are better than the green berets, but not delta.
opinion's are like asshole's.....everyone has one, at the level that the SAS,SASR,Delta ect play at, there is no "best" all those guy's are around the same, it just so happen's that, that same level is on top of mount Everest compared to everyone else,
rofl

[golds80]

well just my 2 cents(ive been into bodybuilding since age 17)...........genetics is the key word. there are pro bodybulders who can do the splits and there are skinny guys who can barely touch their toes. dont ever judge a book by its cover.


as for the emphasis put on aerobic vs. anaerobic ability by different groups i havent a clue.

[11F5S]

The current SF pipeline is the best has ever been.....those outsiders who say otherwise are blowing ignorant smoke out of their asses.

As far as training new guys off the street...It nothing new....SF has done this for most of it's 53 years of existence.

i dont disagree champ! but thats not to say it cant get better - a whole lot better. but atleast now the GB's have found their niche in the SF game of america - becuase face it theres so damn many

What niche is that?

Where is the training lacking?

So damn many what?

[11F5S]

deleted double tap

[11F5S]

It is generally known that the US.SF train differently from ,let's say, their European counterparts. The Americans tend to go for the bodybuilder type of operator. The most European SF's (and Commonwealthtrain for a more average(but enough muscular) agile operator. The vision of the European SF is that the far most important thing is stamina. So it basically means that your legs and back have to be 100% fit. After all it's the legs that have to carry you and your ****e anywhere. What SF guy needs arms like Rambo anyway.How high are the chances that you get in real man to man combat? Plus the fact that muscle tissue asks a lot of oxygen. And oxygen is what you need when you have to walk for 30 miles or plus. I've seen some American SF blokes. They were strong as oxes,but they sucked at marching,not to mention speedmarching.

I hope i made my point about the difference of approach of SF standards American vs European/Commonwealth

Cheers!
Danny

Apparently there's a bit too much Hollywood and **** tube in your life.

[PrincessRAR]

. getting into delta is much harder than becoming a green beret. you have to do a forty mile run across a mountain with gear. in my opinion, the SAS are better than the green berets, but not delta.

holy ****ing **** - and what is that based on rofl

[PrincessRAR]

The current SF pipeline is the best has ever been.....those outsiders who say otherwise are blowing ignorant smoke out of their asses.

As far as training new guys off the street...It nothing new....SF has done this for most of it's 53 years of existence.

i dont disagree champ! but thats not to say it cant get better - a whole lot better. but atleast now the GB's have found their niche in the SF game of america - becuase face it theres so damn many

What niche is that?

Where is the training lacking?

So damn many what?

okay

1. niche - hearts and minds and forming armies...
2. that isnt up to me - but it seems from alot of epoles views it is lacking
3. so many damn SF (and dont bring all that SOF and SF bull**** here i dont give a **** SF in my opinion is SF....we dont have one for every service and ***** type so we dont classify)

[ZoneOne]

First this thread is just ridiculous.

Second... anyone who thinks U.S. Army SF is a bunch of Arnolds and Sly Stalones walking around is far mistaken. They aren't that big... the craziest ones I've met are actually small compared to what you think.

Again I come back to don't judge a book by its cover and to think that everyone has to be huge is mistaken very mistaken. It's usually the gigantic huge guys that drop out because they can't go on a 25 mile hike with out their protein shakes.

[abncougar]

well just my 2 cents(ive been into bodybuilding since age 17)...........genetics is the key word. there are pro bodybulders who can do the splits and there are skinny guys who can barely touch their toes. dont ever judge a book by its cover.


as for the emphasis put on aerobic vs. anaerobic ability by different groups i havent a clue.

I am a kinesiology major in college. genetics does have a factor when it comes to sports and stuff such as weightlifting, but at this level (intense training) i would think that genetics not so much. genetics affects body type/composition, but being able to march 40 miles with a 60lb ruck on isnt the same as two different people doing the same wightlifting training, and their bodies coming out different. kinda understand what im saying?? genetics shows more of an affect in body type and size, but not necessarily what one can accomplish. with the right training, anyone (with the intestinal fortitude and mental attitude, can march 40 mi with a 60lb ruch), its mental, but genetically, one of those people might get tree trunks for legs and the other person might not show much of a difference, that is genetics.

[abncougar]

. getting into delta is much harder than becoming a green beret. you have to do a forty mile run across a mountain with gear. in my opinion, the SAS are better than the green berets, but not delta.

holy f*** **** - and what is that based on rofl



yeah, seriously...looks like we have "an expert" here.

The SAS and the Green Berets mission is completely different. US Army Special Forces, as versatile as they are, are mainly the tip of the sword for US foreign diplomacy, working with other nations and such.

[PrincessRAR]

First this thread is just ridiculous.

Second... anyone who thinks U.S. Army SF is a bunch of Arnolds and Sly Stalones walking around is far mistaken. They aren't that big... the craziest ones I've met are actually small compared to what you think.

Again I come back to don't judge a book by its cover and to think that everyone has to be huge is mistaken very mistaken. It's usually the gigantic huge guys that drop out because they can't go on a 25 mile hike with out their protein shakes.

broad statement, in core body strength aspects the bigger men do very well..and if they have the determination to pass selection then pack marching isnt a big thing to work on...

and noone is saying arnold and sly, but compared to the smaller build of aussie - or skinny build should i say, americans have alot bigger frames

[moughoun]

First this thread is just ridiculous.

Second... anyone who thinks U.S. Army SF is a bunch of Arnolds and Sly Stalones walking around is far mistaken. They aren't that big... the craziest ones I've met are actually small compared to what you think.

Again I come back to don't judge a book by its cover and to think that everyone has to be huge is mistaken very mistaken. It's usually the gigantic huge guys that drop out because they can't go on a 25 mile hike with out their protein shakes.

broad statement, in core body strength aspects the bigger men do very well..and if they have the determination to pass selection then pack marching isnt a big thing to work on...

and noone is saying arnold and sly, but compared to the smaller build of aussie - or skinny build should i say, americans have alot bigger frames
yes, we all know aussies are built like girl's or huge bodybuilder's, but their all gay........................the bodybuilder's p-)

[11F5S]

The current SF pipeline is the best has ever been.....those outsiders who say otherwise are blowing ignorant smoke out of their asses.

As far as training new guys off the street...It nothing new....SF has done this for most of it's 53 years of existence.

i dont disagree champ! but thats not to say it cant get better - a whole lot better. but atleast now the GB's have found their niche in the SF game of america - becuase face it theres so damn many

What niche is that?

Where is the training lacking?

So damn many what?

okay

1. niche - hearts and minds and forming armies...
2. that isnt up to me - but it seems from alot of epoles views it is lacking
3. so many damn SF (and dont bring all that SOF and SF bull**** here i dont give a f*** SF in my opinion is SF....we dont have one for every service and ***** type so we dont classify)

1. I don't know where you get the idea that they have recently found that mission....it has been the speciality of SF since it was conceived in 1952.

2. WTF are epoles?...are they like tadpoles!....very few actually survive.

E-Polls.....which poll's of people talking out of their asses do you rely on for your information.

Personally I rely on the facts and opinions of those on the inside.

3. When discussing SF in the United States military, like it or nor SF refers to US Army Special Forces, which is a Branch of the United States Army... therefore your opinion doesn't count for **** :P Speaking of which your toilets flush backwards :lol:

If you don't classify, then why do you refer to yourself as Princess? Our military is to say the least more than a tad larger than yours.

[HooyahCQB]

i agree with his comments americans do generally have bigger frames..

as for those two photos ones an officer, and the rest are in training and on cse where you loose most of your body weight, plus their arms are in the air.. - but great posting of misleading pictures..

I did ask for the readers to do some research before drawing conclusions.

Officers and enlisted men go through BUD/S together, side by side. Officers also should be as physically fit and technically proficient, if not more, than their men.

And the misleading picture? Unless you're using the wrong prescription for glasses, you should be able to tell that those guys aren't body builders. Sure, they may lose some weight. But if anything, that would make them look leaner and stronger.

[PrincessRAR]

no wrong...

and im quite aware that officers do the same cse thanks...

just that BEFORE the cse, i think youll be hardpressed to find a very muscly officer.

[11F5S]

The current SF pipeline is the best has ever been.....those outsiders who say otherwise are blowing ignorant smoke out of their asses.


Is there a specific reason? Aftermath of 9/11? Would be of interest to me! Cheers.

The current pipeline was planned for and developed long before 9/11.....SF training has evolved and improved over the past 53 years and will continue to do so as long as SF exists.

[abncougar]

no wrong...

and im quite aware that officers do the same cse thanks...

just that BEFORE the cse, i think youll be hardpressed to find a very muscly officer.


no wrong, the pic is not misleading. you can clearly tell those men aren't bodybuilders. what an assanine comment.

[golds80]

well just my 2 cents(ive been into bodybuilding since age 17)...........genetics is the key word. there are pro bodybulders who can do the splits and there are skinny guys who can barely touch their toes. dont ever judge a book by its cover.


as for the emphasis put on aerobic vs. anaerobic ability by different groups i havent a clue.

I am a kinesiology major in college. genetics does have a factor when it comes to sports and stuff such as weightlifting, but at this level (intense training) i would think that genetics not so much. genetics affects body type/composition, but being able to march 40 miles with a 60lb ruck on isnt the same as two different people doing the same wightlifting training, and their bodies coming out different. kinda understand what im saying?? genetics shows more of an affect in body type and size, but not necessarily what one can accomplish. with the right training, anyone (with the intestinal fortitude and mental attitude, can march 40 mi with a 60lb ruch), its mental, but genetically, one of those people might get tree trunks for legs and the other person might not show much of a difference, that is genetics.

i hear ya, i was commenting towards the every american looks like a bodybuilder crowd. btw a&p2 sucks :P

[abncougar]

well just my 2 cents(ive been into bodybuilding since age 17)...........genetics is the key word. there are pro bodybulders who can do the splits and there are skinny guys who can barely touch their toes. dont ever judge a book by its cover.


as for the emphasis put on aerobic vs. anaerobic ability by different groups i havent a clue.

I am a kinesiology major in college. genetics does have a factor when it comes to sports and stuff such as weightlifting, but at this level (intense training) i would think that genetics not so much. genetics affects body type/composition, but being able to march 40 miles with a 60lb ruck on isnt the same as two different people doing the same wightlifting training, and their bodies coming out different. kinda understand what im saying?? genetics shows more of an affect in body type and size, but not necessarily what one can accomplish. with the right training, anyone (with the intestinal fortitude and mental attitude, can march 40 mi with a 60lb ruch), its mental, but genetically, one of those people might get tree trunks for legs and the other person might not show much of a difference, that is genetics.

i hear ya, i was commenting towards the every american looks like a bodybuilder crowd. btw a&p2 sucks :P

aight, yeah, tell me about it. physiology kicked my ass

[golds80]

well just my 2 cents(ive been into bodybuilding since age 17)...........genetics is the key word. there are pro bodybulders who can do the splits and there are skinny guys who can barely touch their toes. dont ever judge a book by its cover.


as for the emphasis put on aerobic vs. anaerobic ability by different groups i havent a clue.

I am a kinesiology major in college. genetics does have a factor when it comes to sports and stuff such as weightlifting, but at this level (intense training) i would think that genetics not so much. genetics affects body type/composition, but being able to march 40 miles with a 60lb ruck on isnt the same as two different people doing the same wightlifting training, and their bodies coming out different. kinda understand what im saying?? genetics shows more of an affect in body type and size, but not necessarily what one can accomplish. with the right training, anyone (with the intestinal fortitude and mental attitude, can march 40 mi with a 60lb ruch), its mental, but genetically, one of those people might get tree trunks for legs and the other person might not show much of a difference, that is genetics.

i hear ya, i was commenting towards the every american looks like a bodybuilder crowd. btw a&p2 sucks :P

aight, yeah, tell me about it. physiology kicked my ass

i juts did botony, a&p 1 and 2 and thanked god i only needed 3 lab sciences for a business degree :lol:

[username]

Just as a general rule, there are studs and duds in every organization.

One example does not characterize an organization.


Well said Erik2a4!. If this Green Beret person was not to SASR standards I don't see how it can refect on the entire SF group. If 1 Asian person uses cocaine does that mean every Asian person uses cocaine? No. As Argyl and many other people who have worked in the dirty business of war have pointed out. It's the man that counts.

[n4292936]

I once heard that there was this SASR guy that like got real pissed and killed a whole town... even though cops and stuff were shooting back at him, he like dodged them all and killed them but a Delta couldn't have done that cause the SASR is better than Delta and maybe the Brit SAS too...... no seriously.










I piss on this thread

[Opening Batsman]

Really!? ****, how many people did he kill? :|

[Vivelamorte]

I once heard that there was this SASR guy that like got real pissed and killed a whole town... even though cops and stuff were shooting back at him, he like dodged them all and killed them but a Delta couldn't have done that cause the SASR is better than Delta and maybe the Brit SAS too...... no seriously.
I piss on this thread

Coo. I once heard there was this guy posting ****e on a board who thought he could get away with it. Then there was this other guy who found out about him and visited him and did some nasty things to him with a 2X4, eight nails, and his balls and nobody else could've done that cause this other guy was a real ninja and so on who could dodge bullets like in Matrix.

[PrincessRAR]

my god, its gone from bad to worse. champion 2 things...

sorry to hurt your feeling but the matrix isnt real

no2 mic check mic check 1,2, i spell cool cool not coo

thats all

enjoy your day in a beautiful country.

[n4292936]

I once heard that there was this SASR guy that like got real pissed and killed a whole town... even though cops and stuff were shooting back at him, he like dodged them all and killed them but a Delta couldn't have done that cause the SASR is better than Delta and maybe the Brit SAS too...... no seriously.
I piss on this thread

Coo. I once heard there was this guy posting ****e on a board who thought he could get away with it. Then there was this other guy who found out about him and visited him and did some nasty things to him with a 2X4, eight nails, and his balls and nobody else could've done that cause this other guy was a real ninja and so on who could dodge bullets like in Matrix.

I can't believe someone tried to top my completely nonsensical post with something even less coherent possibly more stupid??! What the hell has happened to this place..... Im going home!

Auzzie, where the hell have you been and why aren't you at asf.com?

[Opening Batsman]

I once heard that there was this SASR guy that like got real pissed and killed a whole town... even though cops and stuff were shooting back at him, he like dodged them all and killed them but a Delta couldn't have done that cause the SASR is better than Delta and maybe the Brit SAS too...... no seriously.
I piss on this thread

Coo. I once heard there was this guy posting ****e on a board who thought he could get away with it. Then there was this other guy who found out about him and visited him and did some nasty things to him with a 2X4, eight nails, and his balls and nobody else could've done that cause this other guy was a real ninja and so on who could dodge bullets like in Matrix.

I can't believe someone tried to top my completely nonsensical post with something even less coherent possibly more stupid??! What the hell has happened to this place..... Im going home!

Auzzie, where the hell have you been and why aren't you at asf.com?

I've been on strike ever since I was de-Modded.

But seriously, are you drunk? I have been posting every day. :lol:

[n4292936]

ooooh, is thaaaat you. I didn't recognise you in disguise as the B-man - if Dig goes, you're in!

[Vivelamorte]

I can't believe someone tried to top my completely nonsensical post with something even less coherent possibly more stupid??! What the hell has happened to this place..... Im going home!

Auzzie, where the hell have you been and why aren't you at asf.com?

I actually thought you were being serious. Probably does go to show what to expect of the average board member. Cheers, luv!

[Opening Batsman]

You didn't know that? Well I suppose it was never made public. :oops:

Watch out Diggles, there may be an accident coming your way.

[digrar]

So now I'll have to bribe a kid to start my ute in the mornings, that's going to be a pain in the arse. p-)

[n4292936]

I can't believe someone tried to top my completely nonsensical post with something even less coherent possibly more stupid??! What the hell has happened to this place..... Im going home!

Auzzie, where the hell have you been and why aren't you at asf.com?

I actually thought you were being serious. Probably does go to show what to expect of the average board member. Cheers, luv!
rofl not quite mate......
that expectation is precisely why I hardly ever post anymore. This place is like a circus where the rabid dogs ( read that prepubecent know-****-alls) hurry to scavenge and shred a decent post into a series of assinine and horribly ill-informed suggestions and opinions. At least at my other abode its like everyone is drunk - the crap is rather quickly shouted down.

[Vivelamorte]

What's you other abode? A place where there aren't overzealous teens believing US military assistance of the Muj was humanitarian aid? Sounds like heaven!

[jedisponge]

You didn't know that? Well I suppose it was never made public. :oops:

Watch out Diggles, there may be an accident coming your way.
Didn't you say you were leaving and not coming back?

I once heard that there was this SASR guy that like got real pissed and killed a whole town... even though cops and stuff were shooting back at him, he like dodged them all and killed them but a Delta couldn't have done that cause the SASR is better than Delta and maybe the Brit SAS too...... no seriously.


This is by far my favorite post in MP.net.

RATED NUMERO UNO!

oh man, I think i can train you dodging bullets it's easy, but it might hurt, because you end up getting hit anyways.