Report: Submarine spying off coast last year was American

[Moledet]

By The Associated Press

A foreign submarine spotted spying off the coast by naval intelligence last November was American, Channel Two TV reported Sunday.

The submarine was on a spy mission in the sea across from the northern city of Nahariya when it was discovered by naval intelligence. It turned around and left the area after it was spotted, according to a report published Nov. 15.

The unsourced Channel Two report identified the submarine as American. Officials in Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz's office said they did not know of such an identification. U.S. officials had no immediate comment.

Israeli defenses spotted the vessel just inside Israeli territorial waters about 18 kilometers off the coast, the military said at the time.

The TV report said such spy missions by U.S. submarines are common.

Fifth time that is being done by the US and reported to the media.

[platform389]

Fifth time that is being done by the US and reported to the media.

Yep, just keeping an eye on things. Jonathan Pollard and MUF uranium has a way of causing that sort of thing.

Also, a little tougher to pull a USS Liberty type stunt on a SSN that can hit back...hard...

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/aahmed/sad.gif

[TuNeRsHaRk]

it could have been russian? why would the U.S use subs to spy in isreal??? theres not much to see and besides were good friends right

[Laworkerbee]

Hey man they are stuck on a sub, they just wanted to take some nice pictures of those beautifull Israeli girls on the beaches.

Can you blame them :hug:

[M4ko]

it could have been russian? why would the U.S use subs to spy in isreal??? theres not much to see and besides were good friends right

all countries spy agianst each other even the freindlies and allies, but all these reports of US spying on Israel sound like there is more than just regular routine activity.

[Nizark]

easiest way would be to blame the US. If they said it was iranian or syrian, then everyone would be even more freaked than they normally are. By saying its an American sub, no one is freaked and all goes back to being 5 by 5

[kinghk]

easiest way would be to blame the US. If they said it was iranian or syrian, then everyone would be even more freaked than they normally are.

Does Iran og Syria have any subs? If you take a look on a map I find it hard to imagine that an Iranian sub would be abel to travel from the Persian Golf to the Mediterranean.

[sethen]

By The Associated Press

A foreign submarine spotted spying off the coast by naval intelligence last November was American, Channel Two TV reported Sunday.

The submarine was on a spy mission in the sea across from the northern city of Nahariya when it was discovered by naval intelligence. It turned around and left the area after it was spotted, according to a report published Nov. 15.

The unsourced Channel Two report identified the submarine as American. Officials in Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz's office said they did not know of such an identification. U.S. officials had no immediate comment.

Israeli defenses spotted the vessel just inside Israeli territorial waters about 18 kilometers off the coast, the military said at the time.

The TV report said such spy missions by U.S. submarines are common.

Fifth time that is being done by the US and reported to the media.


Doing a little recon before the main invasion forces arrive! p-)

[SeanAshi]

Fifth time that is being done by the US and reported to the media.

Yep, just keeping an eye on things. Jonathan Pollard and MUF uranium has a way of causing that sort of thing.

Also, a little tougher to pull a USS Liberty type stunt on a SSN that can hit back...hard...

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/aahmed/sad.gifAre you saying the liberty incident was intentional?

[Secret Squirrel]

Fifth time that is being done by the US and reported to the media.

Yep, just keeping an eye on things. Jonathan Pollard and MUF uranium has a way of causing that sort of thing.

Also, a little tougher to pull a USS Liberty type stunt on a SSN that can hit back...hard...

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/aahmed/sad.gifAre you saying the liberty incident was intentional?

Yep.

[Denat]

If you take a look on a map I find it hard to imagine that an Iranian sub would be abel to travel from the Persian Golf to the Mediterranean.

Ever heard about the Suez Channel :petting:
Every day you can learn something new rofl

[Fee Fi Fo Fum]

easiest way would be to blame the US. If they said it was iranian or syrian, then everyone would be even more freaked than they normally are. By saying its an American sub, no one is freaked and all goes back to being 5 by 5

Good point, ever thought that the US told Israel to say this? as said its the easiest way out. The US and Israelis might be laying down a red herring for the real deal.

Very possible.

[Pille1234]

If you take a look on a map I find it hard to imagine that an Iranian sub would be abel to travel from the Persian Golf to the Mediterranean.

Ever heard about the Suez Channel :petting:
Every day you can learn something new rofl
Ok you know geography. That's good, but is it enough? Can you imagine an iranian submarine traveling along the Suez Channel unnoticed? Havy you ever heard of that? Or do you think they traveled subsurfaced?

[SeanAshi]

Fifth time that is being done by the US and reported to the media.

Yep, just keeping an eye on things. Jonathan Pollard and MUF uranium has a way of causing that sort of thing.

Also, a little tougher to pull a USS Liberty type stunt on a SSN that can hit back...hard...

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/aahmed/sad.gifAre you saying the liberty incident was intentional?

Yep.Screw ups on both sides Israeli and American led to that incident.

[Secret Squirrel]

Fifth time that is being done by the US and reported to the media.

Yep, just keeping an eye on things. Jonathan Pollard and MUF uranium has a way of causing that sort of thing.

Also, a little tougher to pull a USS Liberty type stunt on a SSN that can hit back...hard...

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/aahmed/sad.gifAre you saying the liberty incident was intentional?

Yep.Screw ups on both sides Israeli and American led to that incident.

An American ship, flying an American flag, in international waters, and buzzed multiple times before being attacked and you think some of the blame belongs to the ship? Have I missed something or misread something regarding this incident?

[z-man]

Here's some credible primary and secondary sources claiming the Liberty Incident isn't all it seemed.

http://www.libertyincident.org/

[platform389]

Are you saying the liberty incident was intentional?

http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty
http://www.ussliberty.org
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html
http://www.logogo.net/liberty.htm
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ussliberty.html
http://home.att.net/~texmextex/USS_Liberty/Start_page.htm
http://www.rense.com/general26/ally.htm

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/angry/fix27.gif

[SeanAshi]

Are you saying the liberty incident was intentional?

http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty
http://www.ussliberty.org
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html
http://www.logogo.net/liberty.htm
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ussliberty.html
http://home.att.net/~texmextex/USS_Liberty/Start_page.htm
http://www.rense.com/general26/ally.htm

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/angry/fix27.gif

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty.html :roll:

[platform389]

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty.html :roll:

Personally, I prefer to take the words of the men of the Liberty over any attempts to "spin" the facts by the Israeli government. It is a sincere shame the two Alpha strikes were recalled to the carriers. A little lesson about proper target ID was more than called for that day.

Firing on the sub just might get a few of these in response instead of flag waving attempts at identification.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/slcm-dvic470.jpg

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/angry/fix27.gif

[Clarsachier]

The IDF naval service might have identified the vessel but speculating on the mission is pure BS.

[S'13]

It is a sincere shame the two Alpha strikes were recalled to the carriers. A little lesson about proper target ID was more than called for that day.

Firing on the sub just might get a few of these in response instead of flag waving attempts at identification.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/slcm-dvic470.jpg

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/angry/fix27.gif

Gee, the British might agree with you considering how several times their convoys were bombed by the U.S and how they lost a plane to a U.S Patriot battery in Iraq. :cantbeli:

Mistakes happen in war, but I guess you didn't know that.

[S'13]

http://www.nsa.gov/liberty/

I guess this would also be an Israeli government "spin"... :roll:

[Nizark]

it could also be just blustering by the IDF. They would be thinking,' no one could get around our surveilance EXCEPT FOR THE AMERICANS!!'

[S'13]

it could also be just blustering by the IDF. They would be thinking,' no one could get around our surveilance EXCEPT FOR THE AMERICANS!!'

But technically speaking they didn't, as they were spotted. :)

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

ahm did they come within 12 nautical miles?

[S'13]

ahm did they come within 12 nautical miles?

And they had to turn back after they were spotted... the whole idea of a recon mission is to get near, collect intel and get out without being discovered at all.

[moughoun]

ahm did they come within 12 nautical miles?

And they had to turn back after they were spotted... the whole idea of a recon mission is to get near, collect intel and get out without being discovered at all.
not every time, you might want to spook someone into turning on an electronic system to get Elint/sigint, or gauge reaction time's to an incursion ;)

[RavenW]

Why do we need to send a sub to spy on Israel when even few members of Israeli government cabinet were in fact working for our spy (CIA) agency in 1960s? :D

seems like a wasteful allocation of valuable resources.

I agree they probably just wanted to look at Israeli babes on beaches. woot

[alexz]

If you take a look on a map I find it hard to imagine that an Iranian sub would be abel to travel from the Persian Golf to the Mediterranean.

Ever heard about the Suez Channel :petting:
Every day you can learn something new rofl
Ok you know geography. That's good, but is it enough? Can you imagine an iranian submarine traveling along the Suez Channel unnoticed? Havy you ever heard of that? Or do you think they traveled subsurfaced?

Why do you bother with meathead?

[alexz]

ahm did they come within 12 nautical miles?

And they had to turn back after they were spotted... the whole idea of a recon mission is to get near, collect intel and get out without being discovered at all.

It's clear that it was an American sub. Because if it wasn't it would have been hunted down and destroyed. I don't understand whats the big deal is.
I'm sure the US is also spaying against Britain, S. Korea, turkey, Italy,
the UN and you name it.

[SeanAshi]

Israel attacking its biggest supporter in a time of war makes no sense. It was an accident.

[A Soldier]

I'll tell you it was ! .............."It was that damn Sasquatch thats who"

[bayul]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

How about an objective viewpoint for once?

[SeanAshi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

How about an objective viewpoint for once?
Doesn't matter...some here just don't like jews or Israel..period.

[Moledet]

If you take a look on a map I find it hard to imagine that an Iranian sub would be abel to travel from the Persian Golf to the Mediterranean.

Ever heard about the Suez Channel :petting:
Every day you can learn something new rofl
A submarine can't pass the Suez Channel undercover, it's not deep enough for it not to be detected by pretty simple equipment.
Also, because of the wars we had the Egyptians have put all kind of equipment under the water to find submarines.

[Moledet]

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty.html :roll:

Personally, I prefer to take the words of the men of the Liberty over any attempts to "spin" the facts by the Israeli government. It is a sincere shame the two Alpha strikes were recalled to the carriers. A little lesson about proper target ID was more than called for that day.

Firing on the sub just might get a few of these in response instead of flag waving attempts at identification.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/slcm-dvic470.jpg

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/angry/fix27.gif
A sailor on a boat might not see the whole picture. He probably could see them attacking but he can't know what they thought, the tapes from that incident proved the at least the IAF's helicopter pilot thought that this is an Egyptian ship.

[PeterRJG]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

How about an objective viewpoint for once?
Doesn't matter...some here just don't like jews or Israel..period.

It was only a matter of time before the Poor Bugger Me Victim card was played. Congratulations.

[olowy]

http://www.nsa.gov/liberty/

I guess this would also be an Israeli government "spin"... :roll:


Must be part of a NSA/US coverup. :roll:

What I don't understand is the Iraqis put a Exocet into the USS Stark and no one even bats an eye about today, but yet no matter how much proof is given about the liberty incident (such as the NSA tapes) there people who can't let it rest, even though it is almost 40 years old.

[platform389]

What I don't understand is the Iraqis put a Exocet into the USS Stark and no one even bats an eye about today, but yet no matter how much proof is given about the liberty incident (such as the NSA tapes) there people who can't let it rest, even though it is almost 40 years old.

As I said in my original post, the Liberty incident is just one among the steadily increasing "problem" occurances with our relationship with Israel.

-The MUF uranium incident (Of course the apologists will say Israel had nothing to do with that... :roll: )

-Jonathan Pollard and the other Israeli actions against the United States
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/4074.htm
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0496/9604014.htm
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/28/fbi.spy

"Since the [Jonathan] Pollard case 20 years ago, there was clear and firm decision not to spy against the United States government or in the United States, and therefore I am 100 percent confident that there is no Israeli involvement in this case."
Nice to know you were doing it, but decided to stop. Sure...http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/aahmed/sad.gif

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/27/fbi.spy

"The United States is Israel's most cherished friend and ally. We have a strong, ongoing, working relationship at all levels, and in no way would Israel do anything to impair this relationship."

Despite the close relationship between the two countries, espionage against the United States on behalf of Israel would not be without precedent. Former U.S. Navy intelligence analyst Jonathan Pollard is serving a life sentence for passing classified material to Israel.

-Repeated instances of technology transfer by the Israelis to China.(...tank gun and ammo, aircraft flight control systems, attempted AWACS upgrades)

The US/Israeli relationship is becoming increasing troubled. Just some of the examples why are detailed above. It is most unfortunate such a friendly relationship is being slowly destroyed by Israeli actions. They will have no one but themselves to blame when the US walks away. And that time is growing closer.

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/aahmed/sad.gif

[sp2c]

all the conspiracy theories aside.

it's probably just an accident, the ship strayed off course or somebody forgot to mention it was there (or the mention got caught up in the bureacratic chain) stuff like this happens every day everywhere in the world and the term 'spying' isn't even justified.

[olowy]

Stating tha the attack on the Liberty is
steadily increasing "problem" would be quit an under statement. I mean it happened almost 40 years ago, so compared to the other accusations you listed it seams quit a decreasing problem (going from blowing up a ship to monitoring software).

As far as the arguments about sales to China, that might be more persuasive if the US wasn't selling technology to china in the past.

I don't know if Israel still spies on the US, but I would think the risk of getting its hand caught in the cookie jar would be great. However, obviously from this report and others the US spies on Israel (many years ago there were reports that AWACS were flying outside of Israeli space monitoring military communications, and the US has recruited assets in Israel such as Yosef Amit). So I think most people agree that friendly nations do spy against each other but is quit different to try to use the Liberty incident as an attempt to try to fracture the US-Israeli relationship.

Finally, for those who believe that the Liberty was purposly attacked, my question is why? WHat did Isarel have to gain from it. It is not like they tried to conceal who was attacking it.

[RGRBOX]

Sounds like journalisim at its best.... I try not to believe all of the **** spouting out of any journalist mouth....

[nagant_m44]

Stating tha the attack on the Liberty is
steadily increasing "problem" would be quit an under statement. I mean it happened almost 40 years ago, so compared to the other accusations you listed it seams quit a decreasing problem (going from blowing up a ship to monitoring software).

As far as the arguments about sales to China, that might be more persuasive if the US wasn't selling technology to china in the past.

I don't know if Israel still spies on Israel, but I would think the risk of getting its hand caught in the cookie jar would be great. However, obviously from this report and others the US spies on Israel (many years ago there were reports that AWACS were flying outside of Israeli space monitoring military communications, and the US has recruited assets in Israel such as Yosef Amit). So I think most people agree that friendly nations do spy against each other but is quit different to try to use the Liberty incident as an attempt to try to fracture the US-Israeli relationship.

Finally, for those who believe that the Liberty was purposly attacked, my question is why? WHat did Isarel have to gain from it. It is not like they tried to conceal who was attacking it.

Israel attacked the Liberty to send a message, that Israel didn't appreciate the fact that the US was spying on Isreal. How could it have been an accident? Egyptian ships have black numbering, American ships have white numbering. How can you confuse the two?

[Moledet]

Stating tha the attack on the Liberty is
steadily increasing "problem" would be quit an under statement. I mean it happened almost 40 years ago, so compared to the other accusations you listed it seams quit a decreasing problem (going from blowing up a ship to monitoring software).

As far as the arguments about sales to China, that might be more persuasive if the US wasn't selling technology to china in the past.

I don't know if Israel still spies on Israel, but I would think the risk of getting its hand caught in the cookie jar would be great. However, obviously from this report and others the US spies on Israel (many years ago there were reports that AWACS were flying outside of Israeli space monitoring military communications, and the US has recruited assets in Israel such as Yosef Amit). So I think most people agree that friendly nations do spy against each other but is quit different to try to use the Liberty incident as an attempt to try to fracture the US-Israeli relationship.

Finally, for those who believe that the Liberty was purposly attacked, my question is why? WHat did Isarel have to gain from it. It is not like they tried to conceal who was attacking it.

Israel attacked the Liberty to send a message, that Israel didn't appreciate the fact that the US was spying on Isreal. How could it have been an accident? Egyptian ships have black numbering, American ships have white numbering. How can you confuse the two?
The IAF saw the markings only after 14 minuets that it pounded the ship with bombs. Then Israeli torpedo boats signaled the ship to surrender and the ship started firing at them. They had no clue what it is (Soviet or Egyptian) so they shot torpedoes back at it, later they found out it is American.

[olowy]

Israel attacked the Liberty to send a message, that Israel didn't appreciate the fact that the US was spying on Isreal. How could it have been an accident? Egyptian ships have black numbering, American ships have white numbering. How can you confuse the two?

That explaination just doesn't make sense. I understand that the world sees Israel as this kick ass nation (which it is) that will do its own thing (which it does), but the perception was really born after the '67 war. I just don't see why Israel would do it just for the hell of it given 1) Israeli's situation pre 1967 war; 2) the US just started to sell arms and airplanes to Israel; 3) why not attack the British who are probably were spying from Cyprus and Jordan; and 4) why risk an attack from the US when you are facing combat in 2 to 3 fronts.

[alexz]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

How about an objective viewpoint for once?
Doesn't matter...some here just don't like jews or Israel..period.

It was only a matter of time before the Poor Bugger Me Victim card was played. Congratulations.

Not every one the criticize Israel is an anti semite, but every anti-semite
criticizes Israel. Which category do you see your self in?

[Raistlin]

Yep.
Well, and I'm saying GWB has an alliance with Bin-Laden.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=50856


Ever heard about the Suez Channel :petting:
AFAIK no military ship - and especially a submarine - can pass the canal with a public record.


It was only a matter of time before the Poor Bugger Me Victim card was played. Congratulations.
Your argument being...??

[PELASGOS]

[
"Since the [Jonathan] Pollard case 20 years ago, there was clear and firm decision not to spy against the United States government or in the United States, and therefore I am 100 percent confident that there is no Israeli involvement in this case."
Nice to know you were doing it, but decided to stop. Sure...http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/aahmed/sad.gif

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/27/fbi.spy

"The United States is Israel's most cherished friend and ally. We have a strong, ongoing, working relationship at all levels, and in no way would Israel do anything to impair this relationship."

Despite the close relationship between the two countries, espionage against the United States on behalf of Israel would not be without precedent. Former U.S. Navy intelligence analyst Jonathan Pollard is serving a life sentence for passing classified material to Israel.

-Repeated instances of technology transfer by the Israelis to China.(...tank gun and ammo, aircraft flight control systems, attempted AWACS upgrades)

The US/Israeli relationship is becoming increasing troubled. Just some of the examples why are detailed above. It is most unfortunate such a friendly relationship is being slowly destroyed by Israeli actions. They will have no one but themselves to blame when the US walks away. And that time is growing closer.

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/aahmed/sad.gif[/quote]



You forgot the Lavon affair:


The Lavon affair was perhaps the most bizarre chapter in Israeli history. In 1954, the Israeli secret service set up a spy ring in Egypt, with the purpose of blowing up US and British targets. The terrorist hits were to be blamed on the regime of Egyptian President Gamal Abdul Nasser, with the purpose of alienating the US and Britain from Egypt and Nasser. The spies were caught, however, resulting in a scandal affair that caused the resignation of Israeli PM Ben Gurion and dominated Israeli politics for over a decade


also like ex Mossad Ostrovsky wrote in his book Mossad knew about the
plan to bomb US Marine barracks in Beirut but did not warned US.

If you have alies like them imagine how your enemies must be :(

[gadzook]

The torpedo boats came within 50 feet of the ship, couldn't see the American flag on the mast, couldn't see the words "USS LIBERTY" on the stern, couldn't see "GTR-5" in 6 1/2 foot letters on the bow. The boats shot at American sailors on the deck of the Liberty as the sailors tried to help one another. As life rafts were put in the water by Liberty sailors in preparation for abandoning the ship, the boats shot them up. One boat pulled one out of the water and took it on board. Didn't see the words "U. S. NAVY" stenciled on it. The boats left the scene, apparently when they got erroneous word that the carriers had sent fighters to help the Liberty.

Image of one of the torpedo boats attacking the USS Liberty
http://img187.echo.cx/img187/2228/liberty3nm.jpg

The Liberty flew 3 American flags while it was strafed and attacked. One of the flags was 7 feet wide by 13 feet long. The original 5x8 flag was shot up by the gunboats.

It was not a mistake. It was an unprovoked attack by Israel.

[olowy]

It was not a mistake. It was an unprovoked attack by Israel.

Why again? What is the gain? Too bad the NSA tapes prove that it was a mistake.

[jmatucd]

Israel has done some pretty bad things to the united states in the way of spying and not to mention the liberty .... We cut you slack and give 3bln yearly. We shouldn't hear **** from you about this or anything else.

[S'13]

The torpedo boats came within 50 feet of the ship, couldn't see the American flag on the mast, couldn't see the words "USS LIBERTY" on the stern, couldn't see "GTR-5" in 6 1/2 foot letters on the bow.

At what point exactly did they come wothin 50 feet of the ship?

In the CIA's own report it is written that the Liberty fired at the torpedo boats at a range of 2,000 yards (while it was shrouded in smoke) and thus prompting the torpedo attack.


It was not a mistake. It was an unprovoked attack by Israel.

In that case you better let the CIA and NSA in on this :cantbeli:

[S'13]

Israel has done some pretty bad things to the united states in the way of spying and not to mention the liberty

And I am sure that the U.S is the only country in the world that hasn't spied on its allies (oh, I guess you missed that article in the first post). :lol:

And as for the Liberty... I guess only when Americans mistakenly kill allied troops, it is forgivable.


.... We cut you slack and give 3bln yearly.

Yeah, in order to subsidize the U.S arms industry...

[oldsoak]

OOI - what is the point of sending a sub into Israeli waters on a spy mission ? Theres satellites that can pick up S'13 waiting for a bus, LOROP cameras that can pick up any of our Israeli posters on the beach from outside Israeli airspace. Plus they could always ask the Israelis rather than send a very expensive sub into a very risky situation with an ally and risk all the fallout if it encounters problems. What sort of information where they looking for that only a sub could pick up - other than the state of Israels anti sub warfare ability. This way of gathering info is hardly the actions of an ally - which makes me wonder whether it was a US sub.

[Moledet]

The torpedo boats came within 50 feet of the ship, couldn't see the American flag on the mast, couldn't see the words "USS LIBERTY" on the stern, couldn't see "GTR-5" in 6 1/2 foot letters on the bow. The boats shot at American sailors on the deck of the Liberty as the sailors tried to help one another. As life rafts were put in the water by Liberty sailors in preparation for abandoning the ship, the boats shot them up. One boat pulled one out of the water and took it on board. Didn't see the words "U. S. NAVY" stenciled on it. The boats left the scene, apparently when they got erroneous word that the carriers had sent fighters to help the Liberty.

Image of one of the torpedo boats attacking the USS Liberty
http://img187.echo.cx/img187/2228/liberty3nm.jpg

The Liberty flew 3 American flags while it was strafed and attacked. One of the flags was 7 feet wide by 13 feet long. The original 5x8 flag was shot up by the gunboats.

It was not a mistake. It was an unprovoked attack by Israel.
I can't belive it, this **** again.
Here read this thread, and all of it:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=50856

[gadzook]

Declaration of
Ward Boston, Jr.,Captain, JAGC, USN (Ret.)
Counsel to the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry’s investigation into the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty
Download the Document

I, Ward Boston, Jr. do declare that the following statement is true and complete:

For more than 30 years, I have remained silent on the topic of USS Liberty. I am a military man and when orders come in from the Secretary of Defense and President of the United States, I follow them.

However, recent attempts to rewrite history compel me to share the truth.

In June of 1967, while serving as a Captain in the Judge Advocate General Corps, Department of the Navy, I was assigned as senior legal counsel for the Navy’s Court of Inquiry into the brutal attack on USS Liberty, which had occurred on June 8th.

The late Admiral Isaac C. Kidd, president of the Court, and I were given only one week to gather evidence for the Navy’s official investigation into the attack, despite the fact that we both had estimated that a proper Court of Inquiry into an attack of this magnitude would take at least six months to conduct.

Admiral John S. McCain, Jr., then Commander-in-chief, Naval Forces Europe (CINCUSNAVEUR), at his headquarters in London, had charged Admiral Kidd (in a letter dated June 10, 1967) to “inquire into all the pertinent facts and circumstances leading to and connected with the armed attack; damage resulting therefrom; and deaths of and injuries to Naval personnel.”

Despite the short amount of time we were given, we gathered a vast amount of evidence, including hours of heartbreaking testimony from the young survivors.

The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack, which killed 34 American sailors and injured 172 others, was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew. Each evening, after hearing testimony all day, we often spoke our private thoughts concerning what we had seen and heard. I recall Admiral Kidd repeatedly referring to the Israeli forces responsible for the attack as “murderous bastards.” It was our shared belief, based on the documentary evidence and testimony we received first hand, that the Israeli attack was planned and deliberate, and could not possibly have been an accident.

I am certain that the Israeli pilots that undertook the attack, as well as their superiors, who had ordered the attack, were well aware that the ship was American.

I saw the flag, which had visibly identified the ship as American, riddled with bullet holes, and heard testimony that made it clear that the Israelis intended there be no survivors. 10. Not only did the Israelis attack the ship with napalm, gunfire, and missiles, Israeli torpedo boats machine-gunned three lifeboats that had been launched in an attempt by the crew to save the most seriously wounded — a war crime.

Admiral Kidd and I both felt it necessary to travel to Israel to interview the Israelis who took part in the attack. Admiral Kidd telephoned Admiral McCain to discuss making arrangements. Admiral Kidd later told me that Admiral McCain was adamant that we were not to travel to Israel or contact the Israelis concerning this matter.

Regrettably, we did not receive into evidence and the Court did not consider any of the more than sixty witness declarations from men who had been hospitalized and were unable to testify in person.

I am outraged at the efforts of the apologists for Israel in this country to claim that this attack was a case of “mistaken identity.”

In particular, the recent publication of Jay Cristol’s book, The Liberty Incident, twists the facts and misrepresents the views of those of us who investigated the attack.

It is Cristol’s insidious attempt to whitewash the facts that has pushed me to speak out.

I know from personal conversations I had with Admiral Kidd that President Lyndon Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara ordered him to conclude that the attack was a case of “mistaken identity” despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Admiral Kidd told me, after returning from Washington, D.C. that he had been ordered to sit down with two civilians from either the White House or the Defense Department, and rewrite portions of the court’s findings.

Admiral Kidd also told me that he had been ordered to “put the lid” on everything having to do with the attack on USS Liberty. We were never to speak of it and we were to caution everyone else involved that they could never speak of it again.

I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of that statement as I know that the Court of Inquiry transcript that has been released to the public is not the same one that I certified and sent off to Washington.

I know this because it was necessary, due to the exigencies of time, to hand correct and initial a substantial number of pages. I have examined the released version of the transcript and I did not see any pages that bore my hand corrections and initials. Also, the original did not have any deliberately blank pages, as the released version does. Finally, the testimony of Lt. Painter concerning the deliberate machine gunning of the life rafts by the Israeli torpedo boat crews, which I distinctly recall being given at the Court of Inquiry and included in the original transcript, is now missing and has been excised.

Following the conclusion of the Court of Inquiry, Admiral Kidd and I remained in contact. Though we never spoke of the attack in public, we did discuss it between ourselves, on occasion. Every time we discussed the attack, Admiral Kidd was adamant that it was a deliberate, planned attack on an American ship.

In 1990, I received a telephone call from Jay Cristol, who wanted to interview me concerning the functioning of the Court of Inquiry. I told him that I would not speak to him on that subject and prepared to hang up the telephone. Cristol then began asking me about my personal background and other, non-Court of Inquiry related matters. I endeavored to answer these questions and politely extricate myself from the conversation. Cristol continued to return to the subject of the Court of Inquiry, which I refused to discuss with him. Finally, I suggested that he contact Admiral Kidd and ask him about the Court of Inquiry.

Shortly after my conversation with Cristol, I received a telephone call from Admiral Kidd, inquiring about Cristol and what he was up to. The Admiral spoke of Cristol in disparaging terms and even opined that “Cristol must be an Israeli agent.” I don’t know if he meant that literally or it was his way of expressing his disgust for Cristol’s highly partisan, pro-Israeli approach to questions involving USS Liberty.

At no time did I ever hear Admiral Kidd speak of Cristol other than in highly disparaging terms. I find Cristol’s claims of a “close friendship” with Admiral Kidd to be utterly incredible. I also find it impossible to believe the statements he attributes to Admiral Kidd, concerning the attack on USS Liberty.

Several years later, I received a letter from Cristol that contained what he purported to be his notes of our prior conversation. These “notes” were grossly incorrect and bore no resemblance in reality to that discussion. I find it hard to believe that these “notes” were the product of a mistake, rather than an attempt to deceive. I informed Cristol that I disagreed with his recollection of our conversation and that he was wrong. Cristol made several attempts to arrange for the two of us to meet in person and talk but I always found ways to avoid doing this. I did not wish to meet with Cristol as we had nothing in common and I did not trust him.

Contrary to the misinformation presented by Cristol and others, it is important for the American people to know that it is clear that Israel is responsible for deliberately attacking an American ship and murdering American sailors, whose bereaved shipmates have lived with this egregious conclusion for many years.

Dated: January 9, 2004
at Coronado, California.
Ward Boston, Jr., Captain, JAGC, USN (Ret.)
Senior Counsel to the USS Liberty Court of Inquiry

[Moledet]

Declaration of
Ward Boston, Jr.,Captain, JAGC, USN (Ret.)
Counsel to the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry’s investigation into the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty
Download the Document

I, Ward Boston, Jr. do declare that the following statement is true and complete:

For more than 30 years, I have remained silent on the topic of USS Liberty. I am a military man and when orders come in from the Secretary of Defense and President of the United States, I follow them.

However, recent attempts to rewrite history compel me to share the truth.

In June of 1967, while serving as a Captain in the Judge Advocate General Corps, Department of the Navy, I was assigned as senior legal counsel for the Navy’s Court of Inquiry into the brutal attack on USS Liberty, which had occurred on June 8th.

The late Admiral Isaac C. Kidd, president of the Court, and I were given only one week to gather evidence for the Navy’s official investigation into the attack, despite the fact that we both had estimated that a proper Court of Inquiry into an attack of this magnitude would take at least six months to conduct.

Admiral John S. McCain, Jr., then Commander-in-chief, Naval Forces Europe (CINCUSNAVEUR), at his headquarters in London, had charged Admiral Kidd (in a letter dated June 10, 1967) to “inquire into all the pertinent facts and circumstances leading to and connected with the armed attack; damage resulting therefrom; and deaths of and injuries to Naval personnel.”

Despite the short amount of time we were given, we gathered a vast amount of evidence, including hours of heartbreaking testimony from the young survivors.

The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack, which killed 34 American sailors and injured 172 others, was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew. Each evening, after hearing testimony all day, we often spoke our private thoughts concerning what we had seen and heard. I recall Admiral Kidd repeatedly referring to the Israeli forces responsible for the attack as “murderous bastards.” It was our shared belief, based on the documentary evidence and testimony we received first hand, that the Israeli attack was planned and deliberate, and could not possibly have been an accident.

I am certain that the Israeli pilots that undertook the attack, as well as their superiors, who had ordered the attack, were well aware that the ship was American.

I saw the flag, which had visibly identified the ship as American, riddled with bullet holes, and heard testimony that made it clear that the Israelis intended there be no survivors. 10. Not only did the Israelis attack the ship with napalm, gunfire, and missiles, Israeli torpedo boats machine-gunned three lifeboats that had been launched in an attempt by the crew to save the most seriously wounded — a war crime.

Admiral Kidd and I both felt it necessary to travel to Israel to interview the Israelis who took part in the attack. Admiral Kidd telephoned Admiral McCain to discuss making arrangements. Admiral Kidd later told me that Admiral McCain was adamant that we were not to travel to Israel or contact the Israelis concerning this matter.

Regrettably, we did not receive into evidence and the Court did not consider any of the more than sixty witness declarations from men who had been hospitalized and were unable to testify in person.

I am outraged at the efforts of the apologists for Israel in this country to claim that this attack was a case of “mistaken identity.”

In particular, the recent publication of Jay Cristol’s book, The Liberty Incident, twists the facts and misrepresents the views of those of us who investigated the attack.

It is Cristol’s insidious attempt to whitewash the facts that has pushed me to speak out.

I know from personal conversations I had with Admiral Kidd that President Lyndon Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara ordered him to conclude that the attack was a case of “mistaken identity” despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Admiral Kidd told me, after returning from Washington, D.C. that he had been ordered to sit down with two civilians from either the White House or the Defense Department, and rewrite portions of the court’s findings.

Admiral Kidd also told me that he had been ordered to “put the lid” on everything having to do with the attack on USS Liberty. We were never to speak of it and we were to caution everyone else involved that they could never speak of it again.

I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of that statement as I know that the Court of Inquiry transcript that has been released to the public is not the same one that I certified and sent off to Washington.

I know this because it was necessary, due to the exigencies of time, to hand correct and initial a substantial number of pages. I have examined the released version of the transcript and I did not see any pages that bore my hand corrections and initials. Also, the original did not have any deliberately blank pages, as the released version does. Finally, the testimony of Lt. Painter concerning the deliberate machine gunning of the life rafts by the Israeli torpedo boat crews, which I distinctly recall being given at the Court of Inquiry and included in the original transcript, is now missing and has been excised.

Following the conclusion of the Court of Inquiry, Admiral Kidd and I remained in contact. Though we never spoke of the attack in public, we did discuss it between ourselves, on occasion. Every time we discussed the attack, Admiral Kidd was adamant that it was a deliberate, planned attack on an American ship.

In 1990, I received a telephone call from Jay Cristol, who wanted to interview me concerning the functioning of the Court of Inquiry. I told him that I would not speak to him on that subject and prepared to hang up the telephone. Cristol then began asking me about my personal background and other, non-Court of Inquiry related matters. I endeavored to answer these questions and politely extricate myself from the conversation. Cristol continued to return to the subject of the Court of Inquiry, which I refused to discuss with him. Finally, I suggested that he contact Admiral Kidd and ask him about the Court of Inquiry.

Shortly after my conversation with Cristol, I received a telephone call from Admiral Kidd, inquiring about Cristol and what he was up to. The Admiral spoke of Cristol in disparaging terms and even opined that “Cristol must be an Israeli agent.” I don’t know if he meant that literally or it was his way of expressing his disgust for Cristol’s highly partisan, pro-Israeli approach to questions involving USS Liberty.

At no time did I ever hear Admiral Kidd speak of Cristol other than in highly disparaging terms. I find Cristol’s claims of a “close friendship” with Admiral Kidd to be utterly incredible. I also find it impossible to believe the statements he attributes to Admiral Kidd, concerning the attack on USS Liberty.

Several years later, I received a letter from Cristol that contained what he purported to be his notes of our prior conversation. These “notes” were grossly incorrect and bore no resemblance in reality to that discussion. I find it hard to believe that these “notes” were the product of a mistake, rather than an attempt to deceive. I informed Cristol that I disagreed with his recollection of our conversation and that he was wrong. Cristol made several attempts to arrange for the two of us to meet in person and talk but I always found ways to avoid doing this. I did not wish to meet with Cristol as we had nothing in common and I did not trust him.

Contrary to the misinformation presented by Cristol and others, it is important for the American people to know that it is clear that Israel is responsible for deliberately attacking an American ship and murdering American sailors, whose bereaved shipmates have lived with this egregious conclusion for many years.

Dated: January 9, 2004
at Coronado, California.
Ward Boston, Jr., Captain, JAGC, USN (Ret.)
Senior Counsel to the USS Liberty Court of Inquiry
And I, suppose to belive this **** that is probably fake?
And even if it's not, there were still 4 other inquiries, in all Israel was proven not guilty.
It almost became a tradition for them to ask for a new inquiry in June every year, the Israeli media no longer even bother to report their requests since it became so rediculous.

Anyway, by giving you the link I tried to take the discussion over there and I didn't mean that you'd take stuff from the other thread and post them in this one.

[Para]

Of course America would never do such thing would it now, it would tap the undersea telephone cables in Baltic that would not be fair.

[Raistlin]

Declaration of
Ward Boston, Jr.,Captain, JAGC, USN (Ret.)
Dude, can't you do something else then reposting PELASGOS' **** (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1026302#1026302)?

[Stolly]

Its also a coincidence that the Chinese J-10 looks like the Lavi. Good job as well, since the Lavi was part funded by the US.

[Clarsachier]

In 1967, U.S. condemnation for Israel would've unbalanced
the entire region.

Israel was so important for U.S. mideast policy that all this stuff is 'officially' overlooked by the U.S. in view of the utility of the relationship.

But behind chamber doors in the Pentagon, patriotic views will be quite different.

[PELASGOS]

Declaration of
Ward Boston, Jr.,Captain, JAGC, USN (Ret.)
Dude, can't you do something else then reposting PELASGOS' **** (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1026302#1026302)?


A US Navy officer who speaks about a matter of his specialty is

respectable by anyone with good will.

[gadzook]

Anyway, by giving you the link I tried to take the discussion over there and I didn't mean that you'd take stuff from the other thread and post them in this one.

I have met some of the men from the USS Liberty in person and have discussed that incident with them. I was stationed in Germany at the time with the ASA(Army Security Agency) and shared a similar job description with many of those onboard the USS Liberty.

I believe what the men of the USS Liberty say is true. Through their first hand recollections of events, I believe that the Israelis knew that the USS Liberty was an American ship BEFORE they attacked it.

I also know, personally, that Mossad agents have spied on the US. I personally saw a Mossad agent chased, tackled, beaten and arrested trying to flee Arlington Hall. So all this garbage about Israel not spying on the US is bunk.

[PELASGOS]

Bamford's book about NSA says about the attack:


Thirty-four years later, a book, Body of Secrets by James Bamford, confirms everything my friend had told me, and much more. It is a disgraceful tale, with 34 American sailors dead and 171 wounded, and the Lyndon Johnson government hushing up the facts. Bamford writes that while the Israelis were attacking the Liberty, an American spy plane overhead, a Navy EC-121, overheard and recorded Israeli conversations. The results are devastating. The Israelis were unaware that anyone was listening, and their pilots talked openly about seeing an American flag on the ship they were attacking



www.randomhouse.com/features/bamford/home.html


USS Liberty flag as it is now:


http://www.mccullagh.org/image/10d-15/uss-liberty-flag.html

[jmatucd]

"Of course America would never do such thing would it now, it would tap the undersea telephone cables in Baltic that would not be fair."

electronic spying on enemies DOES NOT EQUAL killing your friends

[Moledet]

Bamford's book about NSA says about the attack:


Thirty-four years later, a book, Body of Secrets by James Bamford, confirms everything my friend had told me, and much more. It is a disgraceful tale, with 34 American sailors dead and 171 wounded, and the Lyndon Johnson government hushing up the facts. Bamford writes that while the Israelis were attacking the Liberty, an American spy plane overhead, a Navy EC-121, overheard and recorded Israeli conversations. The results are devastating. The Israelis were unaware that anyone was listening, and their pilots talked openly about seeing an American flag on the ship they were attacking



www.randomhouse.com/features/bamford/home.html


USS Liberty flag as it is now:


http://www.mccullagh.org/image/10d-15/uss-liberty-flag.html
God damn, don't you get it? They did notice that it's american, but only after 15 minuets.

[Moledet]

Anyway, by giving you the link I tried to take the discussion over there and I didn't mean that you'd take stuff from the other thread and post them in this one.

I have met some of the men from the USS Liberty in person and have discussed that incident with them. I was stationed in Germany at the time with the ASA(Army Security Agency) and shared a similar job description with many of those onboard the USS Liberty.

I believe what the men of the USS Liberty say is true. Through their first hand recollections of events, I believe that the Israelis knew that the USS Liberty was an American ship BEFORE they attacked it.


I also know, personally, that Mossad agents have spied on the US. I personally saw a Mossad agent chased, tackled, beaten and arrested trying to flee Arlington Hall. So all this garbage about Israel not spying on the US is bunk.
Well, that thing here, destroyed your credability.

[PELASGOS]

Bamford's book about NSA says about the attack:


Thirty-four years later, a book, Body of Secrets by James Bamford, confirms everything my friend had told me, and much more. It is a disgraceful tale, with 34 American sailors dead and 171 wounded, and the Lyndon Johnson government hushing up the facts. Bamford writes that while the Israelis were attacking the Liberty, an American spy plane overhead, a Navy EC-121, overheard and recorded Israeli conversations. The results are devastating. The Israelis were unaware that anyone was listening, and their pilots talked openly about seeing an American flag on the ship they were attacking



www.randomhouse.com/features/bamford/home.html


USS Liberty flag as it is now:


http://www.mccullagh.org/image/10d-15/uss-liberty-flag.html
God damn, don't you get it? They did notice that it's american, but only after 15 minuets.


After the Israeli fighter aircraft completed their attacks, three Israeli torpedo boats arrived and began a surface attack about 35 minutes after the start of the air attack.


And the machinegun firing at rescue boats? No war crime ?

Survivors also report that the torpedo boat crews fired on the inflated life boats launched by the crew after the captain gave the order "prepare to abandon ship.

[Moledet]

Bamford's book about NSA says about the attack:


Thirty-four years later, a book, Body of Secrets by James Bamford, confirms everything my friend had told me, and much more. It is a disgraceful tale, with 34 American sailors dead and 171 wounded, and the Lyndon Johnson government hushing up the facts. Bamford writes that while the Israelis were attacking the Liberty, an American spy plane overhead, a Navy EC-121, overheard and recorded Israeli conversations. The results are devastating. The Israelis were unaware that anyone was listening, and their pilots talked openly about seeing an American flag on the ship they were attacking



www.randomhouse.com/features/bamford/home.html


USS Liberty flag as it is now:


http://www.mccullagh.org/image/10d-15/uss-liberty-flag.html
God damn, don't you get it? They did notice that it's american, but only after 15 minuets.


After the Israeli fighter aircraft completed their attacks, three Israeli torpedo boats arrived and began a surface attack about 35 minutes after the start of the air attack.


And the machinegun firing at rescue boats? No war crime ?

Survivors also report that the torpedo boat crews fired on the inflated life boats launched by the crew after the captain gave the order "prepare to abandon ship.
The Torpedo boats fired because the Liberty fired at them first which made it hostile right away.

As for the life boats story, there's no evidence that supports that claim.

BTW, how many times have I wrote what I wrote right now? Either you have a realy short memory or you are just stupid.

[Pooga]

As for the life boats story, there's no evidence that supports that claim.

What really happened is that all life boats magically capsized and the sailors were then eaten by sharks with teeth that look like bullets.

Leave it alone, unless you don't care about walking on the graves of 35 murdered.

[gadzook]

Moledet,

Any moron can parse the million little details and circumstances related to the attack and construct logical contradictions, strawman questions and weak, vague but not entirely implausible conclusions - based on erroneous arguments to be sure.

Show some evidence. At least speculate on a motive.

Of course, you cannot do this because the only "talking points" you've read on websites include nothing remotely resembling evidence that doesn't make a reasonable adult laugh.

Certainly, you cannot come up with them on your own.

I can only give you hard evidence. What about this Israeli observation aircraft that made 13 low level orbits of the USS Liberty, 1 hour before the attack?


http://img293.echo.cx/img293/41/lg00440hc.jpg

There was only one other ship on earth at the time that looked just like the USS Liberty and that was the USS Pueblo.

You Israelis would have a better alibi if you simply claimed that your pilots are blind. That would have more credibility than claiming you did not know it was an American ship.

[K-9s BEST]

Greetings to all. After years of just reading these forums, I decided to join. (Hmm... like when I was 17 and after years of reading about veterans` exploits in WW2, I joined the U.S. Army.) Anyhow, now that I introduced myself, let me throw my 37 cents in.

The topic was about the possible identity of the sub in Israeli waters, RIGHT??? Maybe it was a U.S. sub, or maybe it wasn`t. How does the U.S.S. Liberty enter the picture? Until anyone on this planet can factually prove it was deliberate and not a fog of war incident, please STFU about yours and others conspiracy theories. (Peoples` claims and opinions and assumptions and HE said, and THEY said blah blah blah. This is not fact.)
The dead are buried, the Israelis apologised, and compensation was paid. Five investigations are OVER. Honor the memory of the dead if you want, but save your ,... dare I say it?...anti-Israel bias for a forum on why you hate Israel. Oh, and for those who still don`t get it, the U.S.A. along with the British, French, Russians, Swiss, plus a few others, have more assets assigned to spying on Israel by hiring Israelis to sell them classified material. You don`t see the Shin Bet making a big deal about it.
(I sorta dabbled in military intel in the 1970s, but never in theories.)

[K-9s BEST]

Furthermore... Believe it or not, the June 1967 issue of Life magazine had the BEST coverage of the Liberty incident, complete with photos and U.S Navy explaining the ACTUAL circumstances. It was a tragic mistake then, and 38 years later. Now, was the killing of British troops in Iraq by U.S. planes attacking British convoys and Brtitish positions ...murder? After all, the British had ID panels displayed for air recognition and their locations pinpointed with U.S. Commmand and Control. (IMO, the best tactical net employed by any military.) Gee, an ANG F-16 strafed a high school in N.J. last year, was THAT attempted murder by the pilot? Locally, a policeman shot and killed another policemans` K-9 during a felony arrest even though he had been informed by dispatch that a loose K-9 was on the scene before he arrived and the dog was wearing a reflective vest with "K-9" prominently displayed. If one apologizes, it`s a MISTAKE.

[wannabe]

Saddam attacked it. The sub was also Saddam's. Now go to sleep :roll:

[Stolly]

Seems to me that their are three possibilites for this Liberty incident.

1. Despite many close passes from the air and sea they failed to see the American flags and failed to ID the ship, so they attacked.

2. They did see the flags, since they were fairly large, and ID the ship, but they didn't believe it was really what it claimed to be, so they attacked

3. They did see the flags and ID the ship and did realise it was American, so they attacked.

Two of those scenarios imply a large amount of incompetence on the part of the Israelis, not a trait normally associated with their armed forces.

[obd]

It could easily just have been a joint "red flag" type operation in which the US was testing Israel's security abilities for the benefit of both nations.

Then again it just as easily could be legitimate spying.

Either way no big deal. Happens ALL the time. Even friends want to know what eachother is up to from time to time.

[OldRecon]

it could have been russian? why would the U.S use subs to spy in isreal??? theres not much to see and besides were good friends right
Friends are friends, but still nothing wrong in looking one another in the cards. Israeli humint appear to be pretty active over in the States btw it appears :lol:. And not only limited to watching ex-path Arabs at that.