Operation mass appeal

[He219]

Well, things in the UK have taken turn worse for Tony Blair...

http://photo.worldnews.com/PhotoArchive//uploaded/uploaded-21067_small.jpg
Confirmed: UK sexed up WMDs (http://article.wn.com/link/WNATD2A1FE345C08FE22E1E19D028CC4B624?source=templategenerator&template=worldphotos/indexsearchvera.txt)

http://photo.worldnews.com/PhotoArchive//uploaded/uploaded-26684_small.jpg
Short: 'Dishonourable' Blair Must Quit (http://article.wn.com/link/WNAT5BEF173571D3854367E8CEDBC8C00CB6?source=templategenerator&template=worldphotos/indexsearchvera.txt)


I hope our trusted Ally fares well....
:|

[Argyll]

I got no sympathies the mans a joke!
He told the British Public a load of lies to send the troops to war,and he must accept his fate!

[He219]

Argyll,

Do you believe in the relevance that MI6 provided misleading information to Tony Blair that stimlated his decisions and policy toward the WMD threat? Where did the 40 min. 'prep' time for attack originate - from Tony Blair?

Just curious...

[Argyll]

As far as I can ascertain HE the 40 mins originated from inside M16,some experts felt that the credibility was dubious,to say the least,but the Government in it's infinite wisdom ,much like the Student thesis that was used by the supposed "experts",thought it would be the swinging point to send troops to war.
The Government was heading for a defeat in passing a motion to send British troops to what many seen as the USA's "Unfinished business",public opinion was very much against Any British participation,and that despite Saddams past,many here in the UK felt he was no greater a threat to the UK,than that to his neighbours,and in particular the Kuwaiti's,who had felt his wrath before.
It is also worth noting that we in the UK also saw no ties with Iraq to 9/11,and that it was the excuse that the US needed to end this once and for all.
The leftists also said that whilst Iraq flaunted the UN resoloutions,they pointed out that so did Israel,yet nobody was interested in making them "toe the line" so to speak,irrespective of what our Israeli brethern say,a resoloution is a resoloution and not up for negotiation on it's validity,or who pushed it,the fact they were passed was sufficient!.The feeling that Blair was a US puppet caused MP's in Government to resign over their beliefs,and the can of worms started to open!!
The Armed forces were told to prepare for war in Feb/Mar of this year as far back as Nov02.At my 40th birthday I had serving soldiers from my old Regiment,and as clear as yesterday,my mate told me that the war in Iraq would start in Feb/Mar regardless!!.
Then along came the protests in their thousands,and defeat in government loomed closer,then this 40 min claim arose,and was used somewhat "brilliantly" by those Grey Men,to swing the vote in favour of war
Then came the BBC claims and counter claims over the Intel being "sexed" up,which in the end left a reputable weapons expert taking his own life,and the follow on "Hutton Inquiry",which is going to make Tony Blair and His defence Minister look like assholes!!

Tony Blair has brought this on himself,the people spoke in their tens of thousands against the war,he basically bent over and told the electorate to kiss his ass..........and it will be his undoing,I can honestly see him resign through "health related reasons" ;),Gordon Brown is just waiting for his moment!!

[He219]

As far as I can ascertain HE the 40 mins originated from inside M16,some experts felt that the credibility was dubious,to say the least,but the Government in it's infinite wisdom ,much like the Student thesis that was used by the supposed "experts",thought it would be the swinging point to send troops to war.
Wait, are you saying the the 40 minute prep time for launching an Iraqi chemical attack (developed by a Student thesis) was the 'swinging point to send troops to war' for Britain?


The Government was heading for a defeat in passing a motion to send British troops to what many seen as the USA's "Unfinished business",public opinion was very much against Any British participation,
The way things are shown here was that Tony Blair promoted the removal of Saddam Hussein in Iraq well before US insistance upon resolution to the Iraqi WMD diposition and US troop movements to the Gulf that led to the re-admittance of UN weapon's inspections to acertain the actual status. Tony Blair in was vocal in garnering UN support for the action before the US would pass it's ultimatum.


and that despite Saddams past,many here in the UK felt he was no greater a threat to the UK,than that to his neighbours,and in particular the Kuwaiti's,who had felt his wrath before.
It's sad that some didn't see Saddam as a threat, especially with Coalition aircraft repeatedly fired upon in the Northern and Southern No Fly zones, established to protect indigenous Iraqi populations from Saddam, yet alone the unsubstantiated disposition of Iraqi WMDs..


It is also worth noting that we in the UK also saw no ties with Iraq to 9/11,and that it was the excuse that the US needed to end this once and for all.
Cite the source that the US 'tied' 9-11 to Iraq as the pretext for invasion...


The leftists also said that whilst Iraq flaunted the UN resoloutions,they pointed out that so did Israel,yet nobody was interested in making them "toe the line" so to speak,irrespective of what our Israeli brethern say,a resoloution is a resoloution and not up for negotiation on it's validity,or who pushed it,the fact they were passed was sufficient!
Prepare yourself.....


The feeling that Blair was a US puppet caused MP's in Government to resign over their beliefs,and the can of worms started to open!!
What can of worms? A puppet - they underestimate your PM



The Armed forces were told to prepare for war in Feb/Mar of this year as far back as Nov02.At my 40th birthday I had serving soldiers from my old Regiment,and as clear as yesterday,my mate told me that the war in Iraq would start in Feb/Mar regardless!!.
And you called it 'America's unfinished business'...


Then along came the protests in their thousands,and defeat in government loomed closer,then this 40 min claim arose,and was used somewhat "brilliantly" by those Grey Men,to swing the vote in favour of war
Then came the BBC claims and counter claims over the Intel being "sexed" up,which in the end left a reputable weapons expert taking his own life,and the follow on "Hutton Inquiry",which is going to make Tony Blair and His defence Minister look like assholes!!
The weapon's expert took his own life. That can't be blamed on your PM unless you call foul play. If he made the charge, he could have defended his position. 40min's. certainly was not the cause for invasion, but added to the uncertainty of the unknown Iraqi WMD disposition. Had they been used without warning, much more would lay at blame. Fortunately a Chemical counter-attack did not occur. Interesting that Iraq ordered all that Chemical Kit as was found throughout the campaign...


Tony Blair has brought this on himself,the people spoke in their tens of thousands against the war,he basically bent over and told the electorate to kiss his ass..........and it will be his undoing,I can honestly see him resign through "health related reasons" ;),Gordon Brown is just waiting for his moment!!
History will prove your PM's intentions as honorable.

Cheers!
:D

[Skaman]

Bush should suffer the same fate, he is no better. Why is the public outcry so miniscule in comparison to Tony? Thoughts anyone?

[Argyll]

Argyll wrote:
As far as I can ascertain HE the 40 mins originated from inside M16,some experts felt that the credibility was dubious,to say the least,but the Government in it's infinite wisdom ,much like the Student thesis that was used by the supposed "experts",thought it would be the swinging point to send troops to war.

Wait, are you saying the the 40 minute prep time for launching an Iraqi chemical attack (developed by a Student thesis) was the 'swinging point to send troops to war' for Britain?
It was the swinging point to give him the vote yes!


Argyll wrote:
The Government was heading for a defeat in passing a motion to send British troops to what many seen as the USA's "Unfinished business",public opinion was very much against Any British participation,

The way things are shown here was that Tony Blair promoted the removal of Saddam Hussein in Iraq well before US insistance upon resolution to the Iraqi WMD diposition and US troop movements to the Gulf that led to the re-admittance of UN weapon's inspections to acertain the actual status. Tony Blair in was vocal in garnering UN support for the action before the US would pass it's ultimatum.
Yes he was vocal in saying that he wanted the UN to have the final say,then came the 40 min thing,and he used that as leverage to make it more appealing to the consensus
Argyll wrote:
and that despite Saddams past,many here in the UK felt he was no greater a threat to the UK,than that to his neighbours,and in particular the Kuwaiti's,who had felt his wrath before.

It's sad that some didn't see Saddam as a threat, especially with Coalition aircraft repeatedly fired upon in the Northern and Southern No Fly zones, established to protect indigenous Iraqi populations from Saddam, yet alone the unsubstantiated disposition of Iraqi WMDs..
I agree but there was a great deal of appeasement present,the public wanted more than removing his regime as a legit reason to send UK troops to die,as look at what we have done in Zimbabwe......nothing and Mugabe is also a dictator with a less than clean past!!

Argyll wrote:
It is also worth noting that we in the UK also saw no ties with Iraq to 9/11,and that it was the excuse that the US needed to end this once and for all.

Cite the source that the US 'tied' 9-11 to Iraq as the pretext for invasion...

It was one of the 1st thing that was said after 9/11 in that they thought Saddam was somewhere responsible,and that came from the US State dept,and certain individuals,although it was dismissed,it was a thought that some still have

Argyll wrote:
The leftists also said that whilst Iraq flaunted the UN resoloutions,they pointed out that so did Israel,yet nobody was interested in making them "toe the line" so to speak,irrespective of what our Israeli brethern say,a resoloution is a resoloution and not up for negotiation on it's validity,or who pushed it,the fact they were passed was sufficient!

Prepare yourself.....

Not my opinion but that of many left Politicians

Argyll wrote:
The feeling that Blair was a US puppet caused MP's in Government to resign over their beliefs,and the can of worms started to open!!

What can of worms? A puppet - they underestimate your PM
The Hutton Inquiry

Argyll wrote:
The Armed forces were told to prepare for war in Feb/Mar of this year as far back as Nov02.At my 40th birthday I had serving soldiers from my old Regiment,and as clear as yesterday,my mate told me that the war in Iraq would start in Feb/Mar regardless!!.

And you called it 'America's unfinished business'...
The UK will always be beside the USA when there's a fight to be fought,there are many in the UK public who see Blair as a yes man to the US

Argyll wrote:
Then along came the protests in their thousands,and defeat in government loomed closer,then this 40 min claim arose,and was used somewhat "brilliantly" by those Grey Men,to swing the vote in favour of war
Then came the BBC claims and counter claims over the Intel being "sexed" up,which in the end left a reputable weapons expert taking his own life,and the follow on "Hutton Inquiry",which is going to make Tony Blair and His defence Minister look like assholes!!

The weapon's expert took his own life. That can't be blamed on your PM unless you call foul play. If he made the charge, he could have defended his position. 40min's. certainly was not the cause for invasion, but added to the uncertainty of the unknown Iraqi WMD disposition. Had they been used without warning, much more would lay at blame. Fortunately a Chemical counter-attack did not occur. Interesting that Iraq ordered all that Chemical Kit as was found throughout the campaign...

The PM was directly responsible in allowing Dr Kelly's name to be made public,he(Kelly) also stated he was NOT behind the 40 min revalation,but he felt it was given too much credability!As for the Iraqi kit,interesting,but you would think that if they had the protective kit at hand then the weapons would be too,but not a single shell containing anyththing has been recovered from the battlefield,which debunked the 40 min claim almost immediately,the fact that the kit was still in boxes and not worn by combatants,also disputes these facts,our guys were suited for Bio warfare! His were not,could it be that they feared being attacked by our own WMD's?
Argyll wrote:
Tony Blair has brought this on himself,the people spoke in their tens of thousands against the war,he basically bent over and told the electorate to kiss his ass..........and it will be his undoing,I can honestly see him resign through "health related reasons" ,Gordon Brown is just waiting for his moment!!

History will prove your PM's intentions as honorable.
I think the Hutton Inquiry will make our PM and Sec for Def out to be a lying Bastar*,and he might be seen as honorable in the USA,the British public might just see this differently!

[Falco]

Bush should suffer the same fate, he is no better. Why is the public outcry so miniscule in comparison to Tony? Thoughts anyone?

a giant conspiracy that controls all of the US media :D

[Marxist203]

Mugabe is a **** stain, flying attack helicopters over polling stations to intimidate people who may vote against him. He rigged the god damned election and the worst part is he's not even a benevolant dictator.

Zimbabwe needs to be brought to justice by the commonwealth...and if the UK weren't disemboweling the armed forces we wouldn't need the US to do it.

[usa320]

Bottom line is Saddam had WMD, but he destroyed them while the US and UK were busy ****ing around at the UN- that whole escapade gave him months to destroy and hide everything.

Bottom line is also that he is now in our hands. WMD or no WMD, he CLEARLY supported terrorism and he CLEARLY violated human rights to such an extent that would make even Milosivic fear for his life.

Bottom line, the lefties should go **** themselves.

[SFontaine]

You forget though, usa320 that the suffering of millions of people doesn't matter at all. They didn't find WMDs so ithe campaign has obviously been a disaster and not worth it.

(Little sarcasm there for you morons)

[He219]

Argyll:
Tony Blair was not responsible for the swinging vote to go to battle for the removal of Saddam. Tony Blair is responisble in using good judgement for the purpose of removing Saddam, perhaps poor judgement accepting MI6 claims and assumptions.

I do fully aree with you on the status of Mugabe, dictator of Zimbabwe. I think that he should be made to abdicate power along with his entire regieme. Will public opinion on this issue prove to be proactive at this time? Perhaps if action in Zimbabwe had preceeded actions in Iraq would public opinion be more sympathetic toward your PM? Somehow I doubt that.

As for 9-11 being the pretext for invasion, that was not the case. Immediate suspicions fell upon Saddam for obvious reasons. The rationale for removing Saddam existed with Saddam's evasion of WMD accountability, a requirement of GW1 peace terms. When we saw Saddam using his authority to continue supressing his people, we established and enforced Northern and Southern 'No-Fly' zones while meeting with hostile fire. The list is long.

The United States is an ally of the UK and has supported it's interests throughout the world. To seek fault with the rationale for the action in Iraq as being under flawed pretext is tantamount to searching for a reason not to take action. Another reason would be to discredit Tony Blair.

Kelly chose to call the information given to Tony Blair as 'sexed up'. His statement was intended on casting doubt. It appears to be political criticism.

When is the Hutton Inquiry scheduled to be released?

p-)

[jlanni]

is it just me or is it all europeans complaining about the WMD's casue last i heard in a gallop poll was that most americans didnt care about the WMD's any more...

[usa320]

we dont for the most part.

I think most AMericans realize there was more to the war than WMD.

There was the future of the middle east at stake- a choice to be made.

10 years from now do we want Iraq to be a democratic moderate state, or do we want it to be a busted up country of turmoil, terrorism and totalitarianism.

[Seiyuuki]

Wow...all this talks...so when are the Coalitions' troops going into Iraq?

[Argyll]

He 219
Tony Blair knew full well that there was no credibility in the 40 min issue,and without it,the and the "sexing up" off the documents,and was heading for a Commons defeat,until he used the 40 mins and the pretext of the Iraqi WMD being an IMMINENT threat,and with that he achieved his vote!
The Intelligence reported that Saddam had WMD at the time of the invasion,and was ready to use in 40 mins,and so good was this intelligence that He sent British Troops to war,yet this same intelligence failed to notice Saddam either removing it from Country,or Destroying or even worse burying it,there was no a hint or peep from this Intel as to what was going on in the prelude to war!Don't you think that is kind off odd?
Tony Blair also produced a document cataloguing saddams WMD only later for a STUDENT to announce that this was a theseis he had been working on some years prior,yet Tony Blair and his Buffon(Hoon) still insisted the document was a genuine Intelligence document written by M16!!
He argued this on PM's question times on live TV,and was adamant about it too,when the real truth came out he just glossed it over,by saying "no matter" we know it's all true anyway".

Everyone in the UK knew he used WMD's in the past,but it was the present day that the issues were being debated on,the stuff from the 80's partly came from the UK!

As for the level of protests against the war,I'd like to point out that given the size of both our countrie,the polls were 60/40 against,that was democracy speaking,but Tony Blairs reasons for war were Mainly about the WMD issues and not about regime change,and also his blatant disregerd for UN resoloutions.
As to the future of the Middle East being at stake,well look no futher than the Israel/Palestine situation,the West has chosen to let Israel run it's own affairs,apart from the WMD issue,the GW1 was supposed to have rendered Saddam no longer a threat to his neighbours,whilst Saudia Arabia also has a brutal Regime,and is a terrorist hotbed,Yemen a terrorist hotbed,Libya a terrorist hotbed,Syria a terrorist hotbed,all equally capable of causing major problems in the ME..........all allowed to go about their Daily bombings until the wake up call!

Back to Dr Kelly,I told you he did not make the claims about the documents being sexed up,he was exposed as the man who spoke to reporters,after them calling him a senior Intelligence Officer,Kelly told the FASC that he did not even say these words at all,the indication that they came from Alistair Campbells dept,he never said the whole thing was BS either,he and other Weapons experts said that adding this 40 min claim without having credible evidence was a grave mistake,he was made to look a fool,the man was our Leading Weapons expert in Iraq,and he was hung out to dry,by a government who invited the press to play a guessing game with the name later to be named as Kelly.
Remember this same Intelligence stated that Saddam was trying to aquire Nuclear material from Nigeria,in which GWB used in his address,only for that story to have been proven ****e as well.

The Hutton Inquiry is due out in Jan.
Intersting that TB is more liked in the US than here in the UK,his popularity has slipped to less than 60%,less than 60% actually trust him,as for History sadly history is but a moment in time,and TB may go down in history as the man who helped remove Saddam Husseins regime,but he also may go down in History as another Lying Politician,to which our country is full of!!
Again TB claimed on TV that there has been "significant ammounts" of WMD related stuff found in Iraq,networks of secret labs etc,only for Paul Bremmer to say thats not true at all,and called it a "red herring"making Blair out to be an idiot


Jlanni,When the big issue to go to war was the WMD's and not the Regime change,and since there have been nothing found as of yet,then yes many Europeans ask why and where are they if they were ready to go in 40 mins,the people who voted no to war want answers,and as the UK is a democracy theu are entitled to these answers!

[The Walrus]

I think the Hutton inquiry will indeed f*** Blair over, as far as the British public is concerned, WMD was the main selling point used by Blair to sell the war to the public, and the people will not accept any excuses if it turns out that Blair was lying, Blairs trust was already severely dented by home issues when Bush started laying the path to war, with Iraq Blair gathered every last scrap of trust the public had for him and spent an unbelievable amount of his political capital on convincing the public that Saddam was a threat because of WMD, for many brits this was his 'last chance'.
Despite this I think Blair is sleeping soundly, people are used to Blair now and with Micheal Howard as the main opposition.
Blair is very smart and wily, he seems to come away from severe crises virtually unscathed ie fuel strikes, railtrack fiasco, foot and mouth
With Iraq Blair is really pushing his luck, but I think he will pull through, and probably win the next election, every day he seems to becoming more like Thatcher mark II, I have a feeling Blair is going to stay here for a looong time...

[WARPIG]

Just a little food for thought... most Brits seem to at least tolerate Blair if not approve. This is just an outside view. Although so many seemed to not want to go to war.. most still support the operations there now. The only outcry are those who are influenced by the EU. The EU's handeling of Iraq has been manipulative and flammable. The Anti-US theme of the EU becomes more and more visible and Britain seems stuck in the middle. Blair appears to have ignored the safer road of finger pointing and instead acted. The only thing really hurting Blair is his ties to the US. That seems to become more and more negative in Europe these days.
Again.. just a little outside opinion.

[Argyll]

You hit on some truths there WARPIG,however it's also about Britain remaining Britain,and not losing it's identity and being Governed by Brussels and the Bull**** Euro Laws,the vast majority of the British people DO NOT want to be part of a greater Europe,it is again Tony and his cronies who are just not willing to listen to his electorate,many do not want to join the single currency,but it WILL be forced upon us,hardly a democratic process is it?

The thing that is hurting Blair is his own singleminded stance on his ideals,it's ideals that should be put to the vote,the people must chose their fate in Europe,and their currency,this Government is failing to listen to the people who voted it in,we have already seen apathy towards election because the electorate simply no longer care,as they are not getting their say,the last local elections were the lowest turn out in decades,there is something clearly wrong ,and Tony Blair must shoulder that responsabilty,the hawks are circling here and there are rumbling in his own Party,whom a significant amount want to see Gordon Brown move into No.10...............................watch this space!!

[oldsoak]

No sympathy for Kelly Im afraid. I had to sign the Official Secrets act , as I am quite sure, did Kelly. I was told quite bluntly "You talk, you walk ". One wonders whether the hue and cry over this is because its Blair heading the government. Its almost the Blair equivalent of Maggies Belgrano affair and Clive Ponting. What a load of round, brown and furries.

[Argyll]

Every serving Soldier is bound by the act ,and it continues after they leave too.
I'm surprised at the way you portray Kelly,but leave out such people as Blair ,Hoon and Campbell from criticism,it was their handling of the whole affair that makes them look inept,each one denied even knowing about Kelly and on TV in front of the UK public,but as soon as the Hutton inquiry started,they were left to look stupid incompetent and were exposed as Liars!
Sure Kelly signed the act,but instead of the establishment playing games with the FASC and the Opposition,and the worlds media,and tryin to get them to "guess" a name,they should have had the balls to tell Kelly ,we know you spoke to the media,and we are going to confirm this........instead of all the secrecy ,accusations and counter accusations!
Also you got to remember the JSIC? did not want the 40 min claim to be made knowledgeable without having it substanciated 1st!! But these experts were overulled by someone in Government to make the case for war more stronger!!

[oldsoak]

Oh I agree that the government covered themselves in sh*t over this. No fear, I'm not in love with Blair :) .

[WARPIG]

This does seem to mirror what many seem to feel about George W. Most of our military still support him but there is still that group that uses WMD and the start of war as ammo against him. I can't say that I don't feel a little manipulated but like most I see the need to be there now. I guess I could choose to complain and whine about it but where would that get me? I personally prefer George W. as a leader compared to the past few.. others seem to want anybody but him. There are heaps of dirt being flung at Bush's election hopes but no real competition. Most people simply seek a vote against. What sense does that make?
Maybe in Blair's case there might be a better option. Is there a better person for the job? If so, is he more appealing to the EU or to the Brittish people? Funny how those who seem to be the easiest to like seem to be the most apathetic and inept. (Look at Clinton. He seemed to be very charismatic until his credibility was killed.) Although Bush's charisma is extremely lacking these days... his credibility is still strong inspite of the whole WMD dirt. Blair seems to suffer the same.

[Argyll]

Absoloutley there WARPIG,I personaly supported the war especialy having mates on the front line,and I whole heartedly support the continuation as it stands today,I just did not like the Way the Government manipulated the situation making it's public look stupid!
To be honest with you No matter who's in power in our respective countries they were always going to come in for criticism somewhere along the line........it seems parr for the course.
I really do hope that the ends will justify the means,both in Iraq and in Afghanistan,there is so much to do in both places,both are political hotbeds,and both are still fraught with dangers,and there is no overnight solution,that's why I get pissed at these "young guns" who say stuff like lets go and kick the Iranian or the Syrians asses,it's easy for them to say,they are not the ones who will go and put their lives on the line to do so.Lets sort out what was started 1st and get it stable and let the other countries see that what good can come out of these situations,trying to open up another Military front will see a disaster in the making!.
I too admire Bush ,he does what he says he will,and is not afraid to do so,unlike Clinton who was willing to "unload"into Monica Lewinsky mouth,yet was not willing to unleash the US Military on the Somalia debacle!

[WARPIG]

I hear you Argyll.. It is hard enough having to deal with EU "poo flinging" and financial posturing.. and then have to deal with the quick tempered and narrow minded of our own countries. Bush and Blair may have manipulated us into a war .. maybe the WMD suspicions were valid... bottom line is we deal with the leaders that "we" elect. Guys like you and I may not love them, but we swore an oath to defend their decisions. Hopefully they know that and "get it." Maybe manipulating us was a calculated risk.. maybe it was overtly liable. I think that you know as well as I do that when the US and British Intelligence agencies are working on something together.. what shows up in the papers and news media.. is just the tip of the iceburg. I don't think that Iraq is linked to 9-11 events in any direct way, but I definately like the idea of going there and dealing with terrorists on their turf than for them to show up on mine again.
Trust me friend.. I deal with "young guns" when I train. I have been prepping recruits for Army boot camp for the past year. Most are just naive and scared.. so they talk butch... some really have no idea about the world around them. (Those guys learn PT or.. beasting... from me long before boot camp) I try to educate them on why they volunteered and what they volunteered for more than anything. I hope it makes a difference to them. In the mean time. We follow the leadership.. challenge them to the standard they hold us.. and hammer our subordinates into better leaders than ourselves. It is all we can do.
Leave the political whining to our civilian benefactors.<<<edit.. I meant.. beneficiaries. We are the ones that protect that right to whine aren't we?

[Argyll]

Amen to that bro!!

[WARPIG]

Just a little epiphany.. well not really a new revelation.. just a bit of restructured thought.

I would much rather have a controversial leader, whose actions I can criticise; than a leader who is above criticism, but only because of inaction and apathy.
Risking popularity by acting and making decisions is what a true leader does. He is not a leader because of his intentions and personality; but for his actions.. which define his character.