Serbia goes the same way as Russia does.

[Kingpin]

I hope they'll be able to take Kosovo back and push out all those Albanian scum back to Albania.


Ultra-nationalists top Serb poll


SRS supporters expressed jubilance in Belgrade over the weekend
The ultra-nationalist Serbian Radical Party has become the biggest single political force in Serbia, following parliamentary elections on Sunday.
The Serbian Radical Party (SRS) won the most votes but is not strong enough to form a government by itself.

The party's leader Vojislav Seselj is facing war crimes charges at the UN tribunal in The Hague.

Three pro-democracy groups are now likely to form a coalition to take power in the country.

The BBC's Matthew Price in Belgrade says the Radical Party's victory is a public relations disaster for Serbia.

The country's outgoing deputy prime minister, Nebojsa Covic, said voters had punished the reformist government for failing to raise living standards.

Power shift

Preliminary results showed the SRS to have won a little more than a quarter of the popular vote, but it is set to take about one-third of the parliamentary seats.

PREDICTED RESULTS
Serbian Radical Party - 27.7% of vote; 82 seats
Democratic Party of Serbia - 18.0%; 53 seats
Democratic Party - 12.6%; 37 seats
G-17 Plus - 11.7%; 34 seats
Serbian Renewal Movement-New Serbia - 7.7%; 23 seats
Socialist Party of Serbia - 7.4%; 21 seats
Source: Centre for Free Election and Democracy, margin of error 0.4%
That would allow it to block reforms and changes to the constitution.

The party's deputy leader, Tomislav Nikolic, toasted the success with champagne and dedicated it to those awaiting trial at the United Nations tribunal for crimes allegedly committed during the wars that led to the break-up of Yugoslavia.

He said the win was also "for the citizens of Serbia who have had enough of humiliation, who want jobs, peace and security, who want to raise their children in a patriotic spirit, and who want a well-rounded state which will not rob anyone of anything but will not give anything to anyone either".

Mr Nikolic seemed to accept that the SRS would not form a government, telling supporters it was most important for the party to reach the threshold where they could prevent changes.

Independent monitors at Serbia's Centre for Free Election and Democracy predicted that the SRS would fall just short of the 84 seats needed to stymie constitutional changes proposed in the 250-member parliament.


The SRS is not powerful enough to form a government by itself
But support from like-minded parties would enable them to stop reformers getting a two-thirds majority, correspondents said.

One of those supporters could be Mr Milosevic, who as the top name on the electoral list of the Socialist Party would usually be expected to take up a seat if the party won more than 5% of the vote.

A party official, Ivica Dacic, said: "Technically speaking Milosevic can be a deputy, but our party is yet to decide who is going to take up the seats."

Trouble for reformists

The turnout of just over 59% or 3.8 million voters, according to the monitors, would be the highest since Mr Milosevic was defeated in 2000. It may indicate that opponents of the ultra-nationalists voted in greater numbers than expected.

He says it will be deeply troubling and embarrassing for Serbia's reformists, even if the second, third and fourth-placed parties do form a pro-democracy, pro-Western government.

The second most popular party, according to polls, is the Democratic Party of Serbia led by Vojislav Kostunica, who replaced Mr Milosevic as Yugoslav president in 2000.

Mr Kostunica has been at odds with supporters of former Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic, who was assassinated in March, since soon after Mr Milosevic's overthrow.

But Mr Kostunica said as he cast his ballot that he expected the elections to bring political calm to Serbia.

Djindjic's Democratic Party appears to have improved its pre-election standing slightly to come in third place.

The surge in support for the ultra-nationalist SRS is being blamed on the poor state of the Serbian economy.

The party is promising to improve wages and pensions, and to cut the cost of living - all popular policies with an impoverished electorate.

[mustamato]

Well it´s quite classical. If you have pressure from the outside, you simply unite against the foe. It is typical that the leader of this party is actually in Hague. Quite a clear message from many of the serbs of what they think of that.

[EvanL]

I hope they'll be able to take Kosovo back and push out all those Albanian scum back to Albania.


Ultra-nationalists top Serb poll


SRS supporters expressed jubilance in Belgrade over the weekend
The ultra-nationalist Serbian Radical Party has become the biggest single political force in Serbia, following parliamentary elections on Sunday.
The Serbian Radical Party (SRS) won the most votes but is not strong enough to form a government by itself.

The party's leader Vojislav Seselj is facing war crimes charges at the UN tribunal in The Hague.

Three pro-democracy groups are now likely to form a coalition to take power in the country.

The BBC's Matthew Price in Belgrade says the Radical Party's victory is a public relations disaster for Serbia.

The country's outgoing deputy prime minister, Nebojsa Covic, said voters had punished the reformist government for failing to raise living standards.

Power shift

Preliminary results showed the SRS to have won a little more than a quarter of the popular vote, but it is set to take about one-third of the parliamentary seats.

PREDICTED RESULTS
Serbian Radical Party - 27.7% of vote; 82 seats
Democratic Party of Serbia - 18.0%; 53 seats
Democratic Party - 12.6%; 37 seats
G-17 Plus - 11.7%; 34 seats
Serbian Renewal Movement-New Serbia - 7.7%; 23 seats
Socialist Party of Serbia - 7.4%; 21 seats
Source: Centre for Free Election and Democracy, margin of error 0.4%
That would allow it to block reforms and changes to the constitution.

The party's deputy leader, Tomislav Nikolic, toasted the success with champagne and dedicated it to those awaiting trial at the United Nations tribunal for crimes allegedly committed during the wars that led to the break-up of Yugoslavia.

He said the win was also "for the citizens of Serbia who have had enough of humiliation, who want jobs, peace and security, who want to raise their children in a patriotic spirit, and who want a well-rounded state which will not rob anyone of anything but will not give anything to anyone either".

Mr Nikolic seemed to accept that the SRS would not form a government, telling supporters it was most important for the party to reach the threshold where they could prevent changes.

Independent monitors at Serbia's Centre for Free Election and Democracy predicted that the SRS would fall just short of the 84 seats needed to stymie constitutional changes proposed in the 250-member parliament.


The SRS is not powerful enough to form a government by itself
But support from like-minded parties would enable them to stop reformers getting a two-thirds majority, correspondents said.

One of those supporters could be Mr Milosevic, who as the top name on the electoral list of the Socialist Party would usually be expected to take up a seat if the party won more than 5% of the vote.

A party official, Ivica Dacic, said: "Technically speaking Milosevic can be a deputy, but our party is yet to decide who is going to take up the seats."

Trouble for reformists

The turnout of just over 59% or 3.8 million voters, according to the monitors, would be the highest since Mr Milosevic was defeated in 2000. It may indicate that opponents of the ultra-nationalists voted in greater numbers than expected.

He says it will be deeply troubling and embarrassing for Serbia's reformists, even if the second, third and fourth-placed parties do form a pro-democracy, pro-Western government.

The second most popular party, according to polls, is the Democratic Party of Serbia led by Vojislav Kostunica, who replaced Mr Milosevic as Yugoslav president in 2000.

Mr Kostunica has been at odds with supporters of former Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic, who was assassinated in March, since soon after Mr Milosevic's overthrow.

But Mr Kostunica said as he cast his ballot that he expected the elections to bring political calm to Serbia.

Djindjic's Democratic Party appears to have improved its pre-election standing slightly to come in third place.

The surge in support for the ultra-nationalist SRS is being blamed on the poor state of the Serbian economy.

The party is promising to improve wages and pensions, and to cut the cost of living - all popular policies with an impoverished electorate.



I hope they'll be able to take Kosovo back and push out all those Albanian scum back to Albania.
Yeh and maybe ethincally clense a few of them while there at it too right? That would be great.

[Loco]

I hope they'll be able to take Kosovo back and push out all those Albanian scum back to Albania.

Yeah, 2.000.000 civil people expelled of their homes to neighbour countries, Gengis Khan resucitated again. Servians did it few years ago in 1999, why do you think NATO attacked Servia?

[martinexsquaddie]

serbians fighting against proper soldiers instead of just Butchering kids and old men.
As George would say bring it on rofl

[Skaman]

serbians fighting against proper soldiers instead of just Butchering kids and old men.
As George would say bring it on rofl

Not all blame can be put on the Serbs for the atrocities in the Balkans, the Muslims and Croatians were no better. The whole region was immersed in a gruesome conflict and it was not easy to differentiate 'good guy' from 'bad guy'

[martinexsquaddie]

true but the serbs kicked it off and if they try to get into Kosovo again there meet Nato ans die in large numbers :lol:

[Kingpin]

serbians fighting against proper soldiers instead of just Butchering kids and old men.
As George would say bring it on rofl

Did you ever read how serbs REALLY fought with UCK before and during bombing campaing?

[GazB]

From the reading I have done on the situation in Kosovo and the documentaries I have seen the Serbs were the victims here.

The Albanian people living in Kosovo simply took the place over by out reproducing the locals. A group called the KLA started to get bolshy about things and started planning attacks. A BBC documentary called "Moral Combat" showed KLA members interviewed saying things like they would attack a police or army unit near a village because they knew the clumsy reprisal would make good news for western media. They knew innocent people in the village would be killed or injured but that was part of the plan. Cases where KLA units crossing the border from Albania with weapons were ambushed by Serbian forces where innocent Albanians forced by the KLA to carry equipment were killed. The reprisal attack for that incident was a bomb in a Nightclub that killed about 8 x 16 year old serb boys. The Serbs certainly wanted to solve the problem by moving the Albanians out of kosovo, but the did that by kicking them out of their homes, not slaughtering them enmasse. I have spoken to a few people who were peacekeeping after the Serb army and police left and the Albanians "ethnically cleansed" as much as the serbs were accused of, but there was no punnishment for them. There are no KLA members facing the hague. It seems if you are media savvy you can get away with anything.

[oldsoak]

Well said Gazb. The Serbs were not as media savvy as their opponents. They also had the Russians as allies which damned them in the eyes of the west.
rgds

[usa320]

As far as i care- the serbs, albanians and muslims were all equally uilty for the mess...

However the serbs best not come crying to us for help when their country is run by a bunch of bloodthirsty, murdering, corrupt communists.

[Loco]

I suppose one can be very balanced regarding some situation an a little unbalanced regading others situation.
My valuable thinking(sarcastic emoticon included here) about the former Yugoslavia is that I knew almost 0 about that country 13 years ago, except they had the bad habit of always defeating spanish basket teams in the finals matches and oftenly they were clever linguists, but I discovered that many "wise people" knew the same than me. They were for us "all yugoslavians", many of them playing in spanish soccer and basket teams, 13 years ago and now, and they lived here together and presented themselves as the same people, suddenly we learnt that some of them were croatians although eventually were born in Bosnia, others serbians in spite the fact they usually referred themselves as "yugoslavians" and eventully born in Croatia or Bosnia, others referred themselves as "bosnians" because were born in Bosnia but the 100% of them were muslims. They all looked like the same, the same faces, the same race, same language, almost same surnames, some times differents history in the late 500 years, and that´s sure different religion, but in resume the same people. And they share exactly the same history of eastern european countries: many of them former turks protectorates, old countries but new states, few natural borders, groups of national people dispersed in other´s territories, etc, and always the search of the "Great Hungary", "The Great Serbia", "the great Albania", "the Great xxxnia". Many "greats peoples" and few "great territory".
In the case of Yugoslavia, I ignored the IIWW facts, except by the Kaputt novel, all the butcheries in that country and the fights between different groups, being utilized by nazis. The main victims were then serbians, and croatians too if they were reds, and I think this fact traumatized serbian people of today, the desire of having more security, similar to jews and the evident trauma related to holocaust. But in 1990, serbians controlled the most of the army, that´s why they did the most of atrocities, they expressed their willing of liquidate foreing groups, and had the imperial willing of conquering: that old saying of "It is a Serbian territory any place where the Serbian one is buried". Croatians had their quota of atrocities, perhaps less because they weren´t so stronger as they were in IIWW or because they had the support since the first moment of Vatican and Germany, it seems as the bad habits are diffcult of erasing. In the case of Bosnia, muslims did some crimes, of course, and they were very skilful in presenting themselves as the vícitims before Occident, simultaneously that were looking for support in radical islamics. Bosnians were saying that they wanted a democratic and laic Bosnia, but it is evident that the Croatians and the Serbian ones living in Bosnia did not have any desire to turn into a state independent of Croatia and Serbia: for what? The same people divided in 3 religions, the case is that the most radicals between them didn´t want living together. I´m sure today thousands of croatians, serbians and bosnians miss Tito.

In the case of the albanians of Kosovo, the only sure thing is Albanians is the only aborigen people in the region, albanians were in today Albania and Kosovo when the slavians ancestors of yugoslavians were in the Caucasus.
To argue that the Albanians conquered Kosovo simply reproducing themselves as rabbits seems to me senseless, with all the respects for all the members, but it does not stop being anything false and an insult towards the Albanians. The problem is that the Albanians love his " Great Albania " and the Serbian ones his " Great Serbia ", and their territories overlap, besides the fact that their leaders have demonstrated that they do not have intention of coexisting. And it is something of madmen that a group of 200.000 inhabitants prevent another group of inhabitants' 2.000.000 from studying in the schools in his own language, preventing them the use of his language in the official documents and also prevent the access to the administrative positions and of local government of the 90% of inhabitants. I know about UCk, many of them have "worked" across Spain stealins banks and the cash of industries for financing their weapons. And I know that today spanish soldiers are escorting serbians childs to school preventing them of not being attacked by albanians, but the case is that serbians dirigentes promoted a genocide. They killed thousands of civils, it would be enough only 5 or 6, to spread terror in albanian people, and they expelled 2.000.000 people of their homes. Its easy to talk from Oklahoma or New Zealand of that, but it was an humanitarian catastrophe, the same like now in Iran, 2.000.000 people **** and without food lying in the winter´s mud in a camp in Macedonia, it was a catastrophe for albanians and macedonians too, a very little country, thousands of them had to be received in western europe without being prepared for that.
An all this nonsense of "Great liliput countries" for nothing, in 15 or 20 years since now, they all probably will get into UE, they dilapidated thousands of deaths, 10 years of their life and the money of everybody for nothing. They all commited faults, but serbians had the biggest part, the same they were the main victims in IIWW.

[ibstolidude]

serbians fighting against proper soldiers instead of just Butchering kids and old men.
As George would say bring it on rofl

Did you ever read how serbs REALLY fought with UCK before and during bombing campaing?

yeah the same way they were figting the UCPMB in Presevo.

[Marxist203]

I hope they'll be able to take Kosovo back and push out all those Albanian scum back to Albania.


Ultra-nationalists top Serb poll


SRS supporters expressed jubilance in Belgrade over the weekend
The ultra-nationalist Serbian Radical Party has become the biggest single political force in Serbia, following parliamentary elections on Sunday.
The Serbian Radical Party (SRS) won the most votes but is not strong enough to form a government by itself.

The party's leader Vojislav Seselj is facing war crimes charges at the UN tribunal in The Hague.

Three pro-democracy groups are now likely to form a coalition to take power in the country.

The BBC's Matthew Price in Belgrade says the Radical Party's victory is a public relations disaster for Serbia.

The country's outgoing deputy prime minister, Nebojsa Covic, said voters had punished the reformist government for failing to raise living standards.

Power shift

Preliminary results showed the SRS to have won a little more than a quarter of the popular vote, but it is set to take about one-third of the parliamentary seats.

PREDICTED RESULTS
Serbian Radical Party - 27.7% of vote; 82 seats
Democratic Party of Serbia - 18.0%; 53 seats
Democratic Party - 12.6%; 37 seats
G-17 Plus - 11.7%; 34 seats
Serbian Renewal Movement-New Serbia - 7.7%; 23 seats
Socialist Party of Serbia - 7.4%; 21 seats
Source: Centre for Free Election and Democracy, margin of error 0.4%
That would allow it to block reforms and changes to the constitution.

The party's deputy leader, Tomislav Nikolic, toasted the success with champagne and dedicated it to those awaiting trial at the United Nations tribunal for crimes allegedly committed during the wars that led to the break-up of Yugoslavia.

He said the win was also "for the citizens of Serbia who have had enough of humiliation, who want jobs, peace and security, who want to raise their children in a patriotic spirit, and who want a well-rounded state which will not rob anyone of anything but will not give anything to anyone either".

Mr Nikolic seemed to accept that the SRS would not form a government, telling supporters it was most important for the party to reach the threshold where they could prevent changes.

Independent monitors at Serbia's Centre for Free Election and Democracy predicted that the SRS would fall just short of the 84 seats needed to stymie constitutional changes proposed in the 250-member parliament.


The SRS is not powerful enough to form a government by itself
But support from like-minded parties would enable them to stop reformers getting a two-thirds majority, correspondents said.

One of those supporters could be Mr Milosevic, who as the top name on the electoral list of the Socialist Party would usually be expected to take up a seat if the party won more than 5% of the vote.

A party official, Ivica Dacic, said: "Technically speaking Milosevic can be a deputy, but our party is yet to decide who is going to take up the seats."

Trouble for reformists

The turnout of just over 59% or 3.8 million voters, according to the monitors, would be the highest since Mr Milosevic was defeated in 2000. It may indicate that opponents of the ultra-nationalists voted in greater numbers than expected.

He says it will be deeply troubling and embarrassing for Serbia's reformists, even if the second, third and fourth-placed parties do form a pro-democracy, pro-Western government.

The second most popular party, according to polls, is the Democratic Party of Serbia led by Vojislav Kostunica, who replaced Mr Milosevic as Yugoslav president in 2000.

Mr Kostunica has been at odds with supporters of former Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic, who was assassinated in March, since soon after Mr Milosevic's overthrow.

But Mr Kostunica said as he cast his ballot that he expected the elections to bring political calm to Serbia.

Djindjic's Democratic Party appears to have improved its pre-election standing slightly to come in third place.

The surge in support for the ultra-nationalist SRS is being blamed on the poor state of the Serbian economy.

The party is promising to improve wages and pensions, and to cut the cost of living - all popular policies with an impoverished electorate.



I hope they'll be able to take Kosovo back and push out all those Albanian scum back to Albania.
Yeh and maybe ethincally clense a few of them while there at it too right? That would be great.

Evan's got a point...the Albanian's will go back to Albania, but I dont think the Serbs should be the ones to do it. The track record of Balkan armies speaks for itself, to many atrocities committed. Peace keepers will insure that the people will go where the the treaties say they're supposed to go.

[GazB]

" But in 1990, serbians controlled the most of the army, that´s why they did the most of atrocities, "

They were accused of attrocities... not the same thing.

More Muslims were killed by croatians than Serbs but still serbs the bad guys in the west.

"To argue that the Albanians conquered Kosovo simply reproducing themselves as rabbits seems to me senseless, with all the respects for all the members, but it does not stop being anything false and an insult towards the Albanians."

Wrong. The Serbs did not come from the Caucasus... they come from Kosovo... it is their religious birth place. The only reason Albanians go to kosovo is to get away from the criminal state that is albania now.

" They killed thousands of civils, "

Thre is no evidence that they killed thousands of civilians. There were lots of people kicked forcefully out of their houses, but no mass graves.

"Its easy to talk from Oklahoma or New Zealand of that, but it was an humanitarian catastrophe, "

The NATO attack on Kosovo resulted in a huge number of displaced people being returned to where they called home and the displacement of another group of people from where they called home over the border into Serbia. For all the billions of dollars spent and people killed NATO could have simply built proper housing and infrastructure in Albania for the Albanians to go home.

"the Albanian's will go back to Albania,"

The KLA don't want to become part of albania. They want a seperate new country. Away from corrupt and poor Albania where they can run drugs right into western Europe and make lots of money. Congrats on your new allies... you deserve them. :-)

[martinexsquaddie]

the poor poor serbs not
started 3 wars lost three wars
committed largest war crime in more or less europe since world war three.
treated albaninans who had lived in kosovo for generations like blacks in south africa and when that did'nt work tried to kill them.
This time the international community in the form of nato said not this time and stoped them :lol:
Serbs have gone back to whineing no one wants there turbo folk anymore and even there gangsters are second rate. They can try to join western europe difficult I know or get bombed again. They had a little run around outside there box much good it did the world not. Now there back in there box and they can stay there wave all there flags and whine all they like :D.

[stephane from Paris]

Sorry but as mu best friend is Serb and since i went in Yougoslavia, i have a different point of view!
After the WW2 in Kosovo there were: 50% of serb and 50% of albanians origin people!
End of 80's, the albanians were 90% due to a far better rate of natality (same thing in all country were there's a muslim comunity).
Under Tito every peoples were quite equals but serbs was more favored!

In the 80's , an albanian's nationalist mouvement who wanted not just more right but independance appear!
The yougoslavian's special police was send to protect serbs of the Kosovo!
The UCK freedom movement (or terrorists for serbs) tooks weapons and begun a campaign of murders and terrorism!

The serbian police use strong and violent arguments to stop them!
It's just after the beginning of the Nato bombing that albanians were victims of large scale violence! The serb view them like terrorists supports and Nato invaders friends!

Actually, the kosovo is under Mafias laws and the serbs who are still in place are murdered by albanians!

The Balkans is a very complex place and it's the proof of the danger of differents larges religious comunities on the same place!

[Upfrontreporting]

Serb tend to be able to **** up things on a level seldom seen, the recent elections clearly show that a lot of the Serb populace haven't learned a F"#%ing thing from the recent past.

As I remember it the two most racist, militant and ignorant parties (Slobos party and Srpski Radikalna Stranka) gained about 40 % percent at the elections last week. These were the two parties who were some of the primary instigators of the wars that plaqued the wars in the Balkans during the nineties.
These results can only be read as a statement that a lot of people haven't learned and are not politically mature.

I can only hope that the remaining part will show a more open mind and get Serbia op and running again. I know there are a lot of Serbs as well as Albanians that very interested in getting normal inter-relations, hell I have worked with some of those people, they gave me the impression that it could very well be possible.


regards

[Loco]

" But in 1990, serbians controlled the most of the army, that´s why they did the most of atrocities, "

They were accused of attrocities... not the same thing.

More Muslims were killed by croatians than Serbs but still serbs the bad guys in the west.

"To argue that the Albanians conquered Kosovo simply reproducing themselves as rabbits seems to me senseless, with all the respects for all the members, but it does not stop being anything false and an insult towards the Albanians."

Wrong. The Serbs did not come from the Caucasus... they come from Kosovo... it is their religious birth place. The only reason Albanians go to kosovo is to get away from the criminal state that is albania now.

" They killed thousands of civils, "

Thre is no evidence that they killed thousands of civilians. There were lots of people kicked forcefully out of their houses, but no mass graves.

"Its easy to talk from Oklahoma or New Zealand of that, but it was an humanitarian catastrophe, "

The NATO attack on Kosovo resulted in a huge number of displaced people being returned to where they called home and the displacement of another group of people from where they called home over the border into Serbia. For all the billions of dollars spent and people killed NATO could have simply built proper housing and infrastructure in Albania for the Albanians to go home.

"the Albanian's will go back to Albania,"

The KLA don't want to become part of albania. They want a seperate new country. Away from corrupt and poor Albania where they can run drugs right into western Europe and make lots of money. Congrats on your new allies... you deserve them. :-)
This matter about the bads ones or the goods one in the west sounds familiar to me, the same like the palestinians and israelies, as if all westerns were the same people and we suffered of press censorship. Perhaps you´re talking of Usa/GBritain press, I don´t know. In my country, all yugoslavians were the same people, differences appeard after, and in continental europe, we saw astonished that the simpathies of IWW still remain: germans supporting croatians and frenchs the serbians. Well, not 1 point of view here.
GazB, excuse me but I´m afraid you know few about european history or geography. Albanians are a people living in europe at least since the times of classics greeks, around V century BC, but I thought it wouldn´t be neccessary giving this dates. They were an ethnic group wich suffered a lot of influences through the times of the lot of countries who lived around them or colonized/occupied that region: Greeks, Roman empire, Bizancio(greeks again), even a basque expedition conquered Albania in the middle age serving a medieval Lord. And albanians people have 3 religions: muslims, christians catholics(mother Teresa of Calcuta was a christian albanian born in and albanese comunity in today Macedonia) and christians orthodoxes, but they all feel albanians first, the contrary of croatians and serbians.
Serbians and croatians, basically, are the same people divided by religion, the most differences came with the Turk invassion. Serbians, living more at the east, were more under influence of the Ortodox Church of Bizancio Empire, and since the XIX of orthodox Russia, and the croatians, westerns, were closer to the direct influence of Roman and the Holy Roman Empire(the Hasburgs), catholics, and westerns countries in general, it´s necessary saying that croatians and serbians got divided when the Turk invassion. The muslims of Bosnia were both crotian/serbian converted to islam under the Otoman empire, but they are southern servo-croatian speakers like his serbian and croatian brothers.
But Serbo-croatians are only one of the many groups of slaves ountries, the ones living southest of Europe: that´s the meaning of Yugoslavia: southern slavians. And slavians, in general, are "new" in europe, if we considerer Europe a continent with a millenary history, they came crossed Danubian river after the germans tribes, and this is some centuries after Christ died. Celtics, iberians, latins, greeks, albanians, they all were in europe many centuries before slavians, I don´t know where serbians ancestors were 2.500 years ago, but it´s sure not in Belgrad. A lot of history has run since them. Serbians became a powerful little kingdom, few time, in some time of middle age, before being crushed by Turks. The myth of the "serbian Kosobo" is that in this region they lost the ultimate battle and freedom with Turks. In Kosobo lived albanians, serbians and many other people before and after serbians.
It´s a shame still today we are with this nonsense, specially after all wars we saw, we are talking of a few years ago, and some of members write here changing the sequence of facts as if they occurred 3.000 years ago. And you called "criminal country" Albania, sure you´re a fair one. Explain, please, why do you call criminal Albania and don´t call criminal Serbian or Moldavia or Russia. Albanians of Kosovo didn´t came from Albania, they were there well before, and since the violence began, it was then when many albanians escaped both to Albania and Macedonia, not the contrary. Don´t mistake the name of a country with the name of a State. Both in Serbia and Rumania there are a lot of hungarians, and they didn´t inmgrated from Hungary, they are just living there since centuries.

[GazB]

"Serb tend to be able to f*** up things on a level seldom seen, the recent elections clearly show that a lot of the Serb populace haven't learned a F"#%ing thing from the recent past. "

All the elections show was that the reformers made big promises but couldn't keep them because the west is more interested in Afghanistan and Iraq now. The reformers handed over milosovich and did as they were told but are getting stiffed by NATO again. I doubt I would vote for a reformer in such a situation... not that our politicians keep their words often either.

"These were the two parties who were some of the primary instigators of the wars that plaqued the wars in the Balkans during the nineties. "

Wars that were for the benefit of Serbians and were not fought on Seriban soil... gee I wonder why the Seriban people would prefer them to the spineless reformers that will hand over their own people to a monkey international court to get concessions that they never even receive.

"These results can only be read as a statement that a lot of people haven't learned and are not politically mature. "

They did learn and this is the result of the way the West has treated them.

"Albanians are a people living in europe at least since the times of classics greeks, around V century BC, but I thought it wouldn´t be neccessary giving this dates."

The area around kosovo is part of Serbia now. Should the Americans hand back parts of Texas and California to the Mexicans? Or should the Italians (Romans) Demand to have all the land they once held back? If they want to call themselves albanians they should go and live in albania... of course it is so screwed up they don't want to... they do everything they can to get themselves and their families out. Will be amusing when they start arriving in Britain and France and start reproducing.
I Doubt their demands for a seperate language and schools and laws will be respected then.

"In Kosobo lived albanians, serbians and many other people before and after serbians. "

This doesn't make sense...

"Explain, please, why do you call criminal Albania and don´t call criminal Serbian or Moldavia or Russia. "

When the rule of law no longer applies then I call it a criminal state. Most of the KLA are known drug and weapon smugglers by trade... what should I call them?

[martinexsquaddie]

tough **** serbs lost
start anything get clusterbombed
got no oil
got lousy folk music
only good for target practice

[Loco]

The area around kosovo is part of Serbia now. Should the Americans hand back parts of Texas and California to the Mexicans? Or should the Italians (Romans) Demand to have all the land they once held back? If they want to call themselves albanians they should go and live in albania... of course it is so screwed up they don't want to... they do everything they can to get themselves and their families out. Will be amusing when they start arriving in Britain and France and start reproducing.
I Doubt their demands for a seperate language and schools and laws will be respected then.

"In Kosobo lived albanians, serbians and many other people before and after serbians. "

This doesn't make sense...

"Explain, please, why do you call criminal Albania and don´t call criminal Serbian or Moldavia or Russia. "

When the rule of law no longer applies then I call it a criminal state. Most of the KLA are known drug and weapon smugglers by trade... what should I call them?
I´ve just read that serbians entered in southeast Europe in the VIa.C, my God! By this time, some europeans countries were millenary. I think it´s useless writing about this, comparing Kosovo´s albanians with inmigrants in France or G.Britain is false. ALBANIANS AREN´T INMIGRANTS IN KOSOVO. The way you considerer states must remain in Balkans is the way to justify genocide cleanings, the old nation-state of XIX century that Hitler tryed stablishing: One country, only one state. Well, luckily things aren´t in this way. With your arguments, I demand USA to give back to Mexico the states of California, Colorado, Nuevo Mejico and Texas if they don´t change their names just now to something more anglophone, because they sound too spanish, and as I know, you can use spanish in this states in a lot of places for documents, and is a must it remains in that way, a sample: New Sunnywestcoaststate, Redland State, New Windsordcastleland State and New Devoncounty State. But not, I prefere California, N.Mexico and etc remain just like now, they are very good places just now. I don´t know if you´ve a problem with albanians, but albanians comunities emigrated to Italy in many different times, and in the southern Italy are many towns and villages founded by albanians, today are italians of course, by the origin of this towns is evident in their names and traditions. Italians never had any problem with that, may be italians were very confidents about their civilization´s level and weren´t afraid of this inmigrants in past centuries, and with all my respects to Serbians and other balkans countries, anybody of them can´t compare with Italy in almost nothing, so if Italy wasn´t afraid of albanians or their demography.... The case is that Albanians were in Kosobo, few or many, but were living there in before Serbians lost this kingdom in 1389, and since then they are a millenary country in this area, nobodoy is going to expell them from their home because this region belonged in some moment to Serbia, are serbians the new ones there. Albanians from Kosovo didn´t inmigrate from Albania. Serbians and albanians MUST live in Kosovo together, and they must learn living together, and the best way for this is they respect each others and a comunity of about the 10% of total population can´t keep the 90% of total population of learining and studying their own language at school.
About corruption, are corrupts albanians, but it isn´t necessary talking about the serbian mafia, certainly more powerful, in some time some serbians "godfathers" even became general, like the bloody Arkan, luckily this time is gone, alway the serbian don´t repeat their mistakes by 9ºtime again. Since the Berlin´s wall fall down, hundreds, literally, of eastern mafias have invade west europe, many of them in Spain, and albanians aren´t the most numerous groups, but russians, ukrains, rumanians, and serbians. I won´t say any word more about this, is our daily reality and we can´t ignore it.

[Durandal]

I hate to point out the obvious, but most people in Kosovo are NOT part of the KLA. Using the KLA in general terms when discussing Kosovo, using it as a tool of discussion to somehow describe the entire region is deliberately misleading.

It would be like me saying that ALL Serbians are inherentl bad because of the action of Serbian extremists. Both governing bodies (like most in that region) are filled to the brink with corruption, ethnic divisions, religous ideology, and VERY nationalistic.

A bad combination all around.

Saying stuff like "They are the cause of the problmes because they breed like rabbits" does NOTHING to help the situation and if anything does more to undermine your position in this discussion.

[GazB]

"I demand USA to give back to Mexico the states of California, Colorado, Nuevo Mejico and Texas if they don´t change their names just now to something more anglophone, "

You can demand all you want. The US took those territories by force and are now considered "owners". Apparantly the Serbs can't have the same rights of ownership and must accept invasion by reproduction. The KLA didn't "take" Kosovo, it USED NATO to take it for them. The result will be a nice staging point for muslim fanatics and drugs to enter Europe... enjoy.

Just another example about how justice and fair are two things that will never exist. Try to extradite a criminal who is an american citizen from the US and your chances are pretty low. US invade Afghanistan to get their guy... and when they don't invade they impose crippling sanctions to make that country suffer. NATO is now the same it seems. Such immorality at a time of moral combat.

"I hate to point out the obvious, but most people in Kosovo are NOT part of the KLA. Using the KLA in general terms when discussing Kosovo, using it as a tool of discussion to somehow describe the entire region is deliberately misleading. "

Quite true, most Albanians would prefer to take to their feet and walk to albania than risk their lives just for their houses. The KLA on the other hand wanted lots of Albanians to die in reprisal attacks by the police and army because of their assassinations and terrorist attacks. When they approached the West for help first the reply was give us 5,000 dead and then we will listen.

"It would be like me saying that ALL Serbians are inherentl bad because of the action of Serbian extremists."

What serbian extremists? A few heavy handed searches and some reprisal atacks in response to terroist attacks by the KLA by the police and army. When they left before NATO would go in (how brave) any reprisals by the Albanians would be perpetrated on the serb civilians... hardly the guilty party.

"Saying stuff like "They are the cause of the problmes because they breed like rabbits" does NOTHING to help the situation and if anything does more to undermine your position in this discussion."

When a population of people goes from 50:50 to 90:10 how else do you describe the population growth?

[martinexsquaddie]

so the majority of kosovo are albaninian muslims so they have to be forced out because?
Mad facist purity of blood etc rant.
Maybe its wrong majority of kosovo is albaninan they don't want the serbs there becasue they started murdering albaninans because they were albaninan. Europe finally woke up to serbia's plans to be a mini 3rd reich and stoped them BOO-HOO and Russia could do **** all about it.
another plus point about kosovo Russia could try to put a stick in the works but thats all could'nt stop it. For which the rest of eastern europe can breathe freely russia can no longer scare the rest of the world.
The serbs can queue up to join the EU or can rot there dreams of empire are 100 years to late. there a small insignificant state with a giant chip on there shoulders

[Loco]

GazB, I think there are many chances to critize USA actions, I simply think Kosovo is not a good place for that, I supported 100% OTAN actions, so I did before in Bosnia, my only complain is that in Bosnia USA was too indolent to act, and many european blue helmets died for nothing before that, not to talk of the thousands of serbians, muslims and croatian died or lost their houses. I think your opinion about albanians is biased or in some way incomplete. Calling them integrists muslims is like calling cannibals to kiwis because some time ago in history maories liked christians beefsteaks a lot. Main charasteristic of albanians is their national feeling over the reliogious feeling, the contrary of yugoelavians(bosnian´s muslims, croatians and serbians) which basically are the same people. Albanians are both christians and muslims, but albanians overall, and neirther christians nor muslims are integrists. The muslims integrists cells in europe are from arabs and magreb´s countries usually hidden in the inmigrant´s communities, even there aren´t turk´s integrits. Regarding heroin, I think we know better than you who brings it to my country, and aren´t albanians but turks(not integrists, but yes they´re smugglers), serbians, croatians, russians, rumanians, moors, bulgarians, moldavians, ukrains...and some albanians.

[GazB]

"so the majority of kosovo are albaninian muslims so they have to be forced out because?
Mad facist purity of blood etc rant. "

A group of Albanians were perpetrating acts that would now be called terrorist acts.... blowing up nightclubs is hardly geneva convention stuff... and the Serbian forces that acted certainly overreacted in some cases.

"Maybe its wrong majority of kosovo is albaninan they don't want the serbs there becasue they started murdering albaninans because they were albaninan."

And where are these thousands of murdered Albanians? The only dead I ever saw on TV were from bombs and fights between KLA and Soldiers and Police.

And of course those killed after the peace loving Albanians returned. Well Done NATO... excellent solution... that band aid might last as long as the last one but eventually the puss will dribble out.

Funny really... since 11/9 the US would probably have sided against the KLA in its war against terrorism.

BTW it was very impressive... NATO at home with all the advantages of the huge military budgets of the member powers couldn't fly below 20,000ft, nor deploy ground troops against Serbia. What an impressive org NATO is.

" I think there are many chances to critize USA actions, "

I am not criticising what they have done... just using it as an example of what other coutnries do and their actions don't draw interventions by other countries. How many countries did the UK colonise? I am living in one of those countries. It is not easy being identified at home as a European... most actual europeans would not call me european except by race. I am technically a Pacific Islander though genetically I am of European descent.

"I simply think Kosovo is not a good place for that, I supported 100% OTAN actions, so I did before in Bosnia, my only complain is that in Bosnia USA was too indolent to act, and many european blue helmets died for nothing before that, not to talk of the thousands of serbians, muslims and croatian died or lost their houses."

If you want NATO to act as a world police then you have got to expect some criticism. A police that cannot be criticised is a fascist police.
Equally you want NATO to at least be balanced in its actions. There was definitely a plan with Kosovo to "Get" Milosovich. Largely coming from Madeline Allbright and the American side. They were interviewed on TV by teh BBC and with using cuts they stated themselves that the purpose was to get Milosovich. So what you say? In their stated goal of "getting" someone they basically interfered in the internal problems of a soverign nation. That is of course OK too... till it requires action against Britain for its actions in Northern Ireland, or perhaps action against the US for its treatment of those held at guantanamo. Why is it that issues liek Saddam and Milosovich NEED to be solved within a certain time period when Rwanda, Northern Ireland, North Korea, Cuba, seem to have different priorities. Milosovich killed thousands... millions died in Rwanda, millions starved in North Korea. What criteria will this new police force have... the things that annoy US politicians and anything else can be ignored?

If they couldn't do it fair and balanced they shold have done nothing at all.

[Loco]

I´ve never said I want NATO being a world police, in fact is a trans-atlantic organization created for defending west EUROPE, not the world, against Warsow Pact, another european organization. Now, NATO must be able of supporting the peace in Europe, that´s all.
Regarding your problems with your race in NZeland, well, in south America are people for all the world mixed and not mixed together with amerindians, and they didn´t have any problem with self-definitions. BTH, I have 3 kiwis nephews, I don´t know if they have any drop of maori blood in their veins or the pedigree of her kiwi mother, but if they´ll have to define themselves by their race in the future, then I don´t like NZeland and I´d prefer my brother leave NZeland and come to Spain, here you aren´t asked about your race in documents, the same in the rest of europe. Another difference between europe-rest of the world. Differents situtions, differents points of view. I surrender, you win, albanians are evil.

[GazB]

"in fact is a trans-atlantic organization created for defending west EUROPE, not the world, "

And which western country was threatened by Serbia?

"Now, NATO must be able of supporting the peace in Europe, that´s all. "

They did nothing to support peace. They attacked another country that wouldn't solve its internal problems the way the US and UK wanted them solved.

"BTH, I have 3 kiwis nephews, I don´t know if they have any drop of maori blood in their veins or the pedigree of her kiwi mother, but if they´ll have to define themselves by their race in the future, then I don´t like NZeland and I´d prefer my brother leave NZeland and come to Spain, here you aren´t asked about your race in documents,"

Apart from official documents like passport or drivers licence race is immaterial. There are race problems in NZ but then there are race problems everywhere. The Mayor of the city I live near is Indian, and I believe there is at least one ethnically Chinese mayor somewhere else in the country too. We even have a transgender Member of Parliment. (A man that had an operation to become a woman). There are plenty of racists that probably don't like any of that and a few prudes that don't like it either but they are obviously a minority.

"I surrender, you win, albanians are evil."

And if 10 million spanish speaking people from South America moved to Spain and started reproducing like mad in one area and then started demanding independance from Spain how would you feel? If all the Mexicans in the US moved into one area and started demanding independance what would happen? Or if Blacks in America, or Cubans or another ethnic group? What if all the Pakistanis in Britain declared independance? Would they be ignored, kicked out, or given exactly what they wanted... and militarily assisted by NATO?