Fact about WW2 and polad

[UoUo]

Hi :D

Just wanted to know...how much people died in poland during WW2 ? (not including jews) and were did the most of them died ? and how ?

thank for the helpers.

[Kingpin]

How they died..
You're kind of sadist :) :)

[UoUo]

No i don't man...i just need to know that...i mean..they died in death camp like the jews ? or they killed during the war by bombs ?

[S'13]

No i don't man...i just need to know that...i mean..they died in death camp like the jews ? or they killed during the war by bombs ?

An estimated 3 million none Jewish Poles were murdered in the Holocaust, apart from the 3 million Jewish Poles who were also murdered. All in all 6 million Polish citizens were murdered...

As for the number of Poles killed in the war I don't know.

[duck]

And in some incidents the killers were not Nazis but good catholics. Jedwabne, Poland, July 10th 1941, 1600 Jewish Poles killed by...their Polish neighbours. Although officially by "Nazis".

[UoUo]

No i don't man...i just need to know that...i mean..they died in death camp like the jews ? or they killed during the war by bombs ?

An estimated 3 million none Jewish Poles were murdered in the Holocaust, apart from the 3 million Jewish Poles who were also murdered. All in all 6 million Polish citizens were murdered...

As for the number of Poles killed in the war I don't know.

But they died in the death camps ?

[S'13]

And in some incidents the killers were not Nazis but good catholics. Jedwabne, Poland, July 10th 1941, 1600 Jewish Poles killed by...their Polish neighbours. Although officially by "Nazis".

I must make something clear, many Poles did collaborate with the Nazis and helped them commit atrocities and crimes againts their fellow countrymen, however many Poles saved Jewish live at great risk. The greatest number of Gentile rescuers of Jews were Poles. 5,733 Polish men and women hold the title of "Righteous Among the Nations".

[S'13]

No i don't man...i just need to know that...i mean..they died in death camp like the jews ? or they killed during the war by bombs ?

An estimated 3 million none Jewish Poles were murdered in the Holocaust, apart from the 3 million Jewish Poles who were also murdered. All in all 6 million Polish citizens were murdered...

As for the number of Poles killed in the war I don't know.

But they died in the death camps ?

The 3 million murdered Poles that I mentioned were systematically murdered in the Holocaust, just like the Jews. So you could say they were murdered in the camps. However I'm sure you know that not all of the victims of the Holocaust were murdered in the extermination camps, many were murdered at the hands of the special killing units (Einsatzgruppen) who were used during the invasion of the Soviet Union and in massacres and in the killing fields. So it could be that some of the none Jewish Polish victims were not killed in the camps themselves (just like in the case of many Jewish victims).

[UoUo]

No i don't man...i just need to know that...i mean..they died in death camp like the jews ? or they killed during the war by bombs ?

An estimated 3 million none Jewish Poles were murdered in the Holocaust, apart from the 3 million Jewish Poles who were also murdered. All in all 6 million Polish citizens were murdered...

As for the number of Poles killed in the war I don't know.

But they died in the death camps ?

The 3 million murdered Poles that I mentioned were systematically murdered in the Holocaust, just like the Jews. So you could say they were murdered in the camps. However I'm sure you know that not all of the victims of the Holocaust were murdered in the extermination camps, many were murdered at the hands of the special killing units (Einsatzgruppen) who were used during the invasion of the Soviet Union and in massacres and in the killing fields. So it could be that some of the none Jewish Polish victims were not killed in the camps themselves (just like in the case of many Jewish victims).

Yeah..i aware that many jews died in death march ...in act...
Anyway thank you for the help.

[Loco]

And in some incidents the killers were not Nazis but good catholics
May be you forgot a sarcastic emoticon. Good catholics aren´t criminals, really, a religious one can´t be a criminal, being muslim, jew, christian or buddhist.
Loco, an agnostic.

[Herrmannek]

And in some incidents the killers were not Nazis but good catholics. Jedwabne, Poland, July 10th 1941, 1600 Jewish Poles killed by...their Polish neighbours. Although officially by "Nazis".

Don't want to nitpick, but Jewish partisants also have their "Jedwabne" :( . Ever heard about Massacre in Koniuchy. This case is investigated now by IPN(Special agency for investigating crimes commited against Polish citizens including: Jedvabne, Soviet crimes, etc...) so numbers aren't sure yet, random sources report 30 victims to even ~300.

BTW real amount of Jewish victims in Jedwabne is around 340 people, as reavelaed recent examinations of burial places made by IPN, no full exhumation was performed b/c of request of Jewish organisations to not disturb rest of victims

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Massacre-in-Koniuchy



Encyclopedia: Massacre in Koniuchy
Article last updated: 9:30am, November 04, 2003
Database last updated: 3:26am, December 18, 2003

In 1944, probably in January, the Polish village of Koniuchy was wiped out by partisans from the Lithuanian brigade, under the command of Jacob Penner and Shmuel Kaplinsky. The village was not fortified, and the villagers had only a few old rifles. Children, women and old men were killed in cold blood. A total of about 130 men were killed.

After the war, some of the partisans boasted of the crime (including Chaim Lazaar, Israel Weiss, and Rich Cohen). Nobody was ever charged for this crime.

We sentenced most of Jedwabne criminalist in fair trial right after the war, those who weren't by many reasons sentenced then as dead now in efect of IPN investigation were adjudged guilty for that crimes...Now is time for you to deal with your past...

P.S. Officialy Poles murdered Jewish in Jedwabne by their own hands...Germans(Small amount) were "only" encouraging Poles by asisting that crime(This is still not sure if germans stayed at place of masacre) and leading Jews to place of masacre from city central square...Those are recent effects of investigation made by IPN, you can read more here only in polish: http://www.ipn.gov.pl/a_090702_wnioski_jedwabne.html

Edit: to be more correct changes are in bold

[Groove]

As speaking for where im coming from the Germans "rolled" over. As my dead grandpa told me the normal "Wehrmacht" were normal and almost always nice ppl to the Polish Civilians (Christians and Jews). The terror came some weeks after the front went through. Then came Waffen-SS and some "SD - Sonderdienst" Units who searched for jews. They deported most of them to the Death Camps but many were just taken from home and shot nearby. Some of them were just pulled out of their houses and executed on the street whereafter the non-jewish civilians had to burry them.

The real terror for the non-jewish civilians came with the partisans. A gruesome example is the wedding day of my grandma and grandma. On the same day the Nazis executed 27 people from the village and some other villages only some hundred meters away from the wedding of my grandma and pa. They executed a pregnant woman which was in around 7 th mont by shooting her in the stomach and some minutes later the finnished her of. There is a big monument on the cementary where my grandma lies on. All because there were partisan activities in nearby woods.

A friend of my grandfather was in Germany and worked as a slave for IG Farben while being internated in Dachau.

As you can see poland suffered on many ways. Not this "systematic" killing as the Polish jews but Polish ppl were the "Unterrasse" - Underrace in english. They were literaly slaves for the Nazis.

I dont know how it was on other parts of Poland but i think not too much other way.

Greetings

Groove

[Marmot1]

And in some incidents the killers were not Nazis but good catholics. Jedwabne, Poland, July 10th 1941, 1600 Jewish Poles killed by...their Polish neighbours. Although officially by "Nazis".

Well investigation proved that there were no more than 300 killed in jedwabne (they were gathered in one barn not so big outside the city) and whole murder was supervised by german SS from Ciechanow.... but was commited by poles mainly,and 4 leaders of this lynching were after war sentenced for long terms (AFAIK for life ).

wojsko mean military personel killed during war (i.e. during combat,in POW camps or murdered like 40000 polish oficers in Soviet Union)

Belgium - 88,000 (wojsko 12,000)
Brasil - 1,000 (wojsko 943)
British Commonwelth - 463,371 (wojsko 373,372)
-- Australia - 24,000 (wojsko 23,365)
-- Canada - 38,000 (wojsko 37,476)
-- India - 24,338 (wojsko 24,338)
-- New Zeland - 10,033 (wojsko 10,033)
-- South Africa - 7,000 (wojsko 6,840)
-- Great Britain - 357,000 (wojsko 264,443)
-- Colonies - 7,000 (wojsko 6,887)
China - 1,310,224 (wojsko 1,310,224) only military is known.
Czechoslovakia - 255,000 (wojsko 10,000)
Denmark - 4,000 (wojsko 3,006)
Filipines - 118,000 (wojsko 27,000)
France - 563,000 (wojsko 213,000)
Greece - 413,000 (wojsko 88,000)
Holland - 208,000 (wojsko 7,900)
Jugoslavia - 1,505,000 (wojsko 410,000)
Norway - 10,000 (wojsko 3,000)
Poland - 5,800,000 (wojsko 320,000)
USA - 298,000 (wojsko 292,131)
Soviet Union - 16,800,000 (wojsko 10,000,000)
Bulgaria - 20,000 (wojsko 10,000)
Finland - 84,000 (wojsko 82,000)
Japan - 1,972,000 (wojsko 1,300,000)
Romania - 500,000 (wojsko 300,000)
III Reich - 4,200,000 (wojsko 3,500,000)
Hungary - 490,000 (wojsko 200,000)
Italy - 395,000 (wojsko 242,232)
Albania - 28,000 (wojsko ---)
Luksemburg - 5,000 (wojsko ---)

Other :

Overal loses WW2: 53 000 000 people
Overal soldiers under arms during war: 110 000 000
Military expenditures: 935 000 000 000 $
Material Loses (Europa): 260 000 000 000 $
Soldiers 1945 r. (Europe): app. 14 900 000 soldiers (Soviet Union - 10 mln, USA - 3 mln, Commonwelth - 900 tys, Poland - 600 000, France - 400 000)
Countries involved: 72 out of 78
War handicaped: 30 000 000 osób
Loses per 1000 inhabitants (Poland): 220
Material loses per person. (Poland): 626 $
Allied loses in ships(brt): 20 815 496
German army in 1939 r.: 2 750 000 Soldiers


Jewish Loses (% means extermianted population in comparision to pre-war population also include migration during the war)

przed wojną=pre war po wojnie = post war

Ireland - (przed wojną 4,000, po wojnie 4,000) 0%
Great Britain - (przed wojną 350,000, po wojnie 350,000) 0%
Spain - (przed wojną 4,000, po wojnie 4,000) 0%
Turkey - (przed wojną 50,000, po wojnie 50,000) 0%
Sweden - (przed wojną 8,000, po wojnie 8,000) 0%
Demark - (przed wojną 7,000, po wojnie 7,000) 0%
France - (przed wojną 320,000, po wojnie 230,000) 28%
Belgium - (przed wojną 85,000, po wojnie 61,000) 28%
Holland - (przed wojną 140,000, po wojnie 35,000) 75%
Luksemburg - (przed wojną 2,000, po wojnie 1,300) 35%
Switzerland - (przed wojną 20,000, po wojnie 20,000) 0%
Norway - (przed wojną 2,000, po wojnie 1,200) 40%
III Reich - (przed wojną 230,000, po wojnie 50,000) 78%
Austria - (przed wojną 80,000, po wojnie 15,000) 81%
Czechosovakia - (przed wojną 315,000, po wojnie 45,000) 86%
Italy - (przed wojną 45,000, po wojnie 37,000) 17%
Poland - (przed wojną 3,250,000, po wojnie 250,000) 92%
Hungary - (przed wojną 400,000, po wojnie 100,000) 75%
Jugoslawia - (przed wojną 75,000, po wojnie 15,000) 80%
Greece - (przed wojną 75,000, po wojnie 10,000) 87%
Romania - (przed wojną 800,000, po wojnie 450,000) 44%
Bulgaria - (przed wojną 60,000, po wojnie 49,000) 18%
Soviet Union - (przed wojną 2,800,000, po wojnie 1,600,000) 43%
Lithuania - (przed wojną 155,000, po wojnie 20,000) 87%
Latvia - (przed wojną 95,000, po wojnie 10,000) 90%
Total - (przed wojną 10,092,000, po wojnie ok. 4,000,000) 61%

[Marmot1]

As speaking for where im coming from the Germans "rolled" over. As my dead grandpa told me the normal "Wehrmacht" were normal and almost always nice ppl to the Polish Civilians (Christians and Jews). The terror came some weeks after the front went through. Then came Waffen-SS and some "SD - Sonderdienst" Units who searched for jews. They deported most of them to the Death Camps but many were just taken from home and shot nearby. Some of them were just pulled out of their houses and executed on the street whereafter the non-jewish civilians had to burry them.

The real terror for the non-jewish civilians came with the partisans. A gruesome example is the wedding day of my grandma and grandma. On the same day the Nazis executed 27 people from the village and some other villages only some hundred meters away from the wedding of my grandma and pa. They executed a pregnant woman which was in around 7 th mont by shooting her in the stomach and some minutes later the finnished her of. There is a big monument on the cementary where my grandma lies on. All because there were partisan activities in nearby woods.

A friend of my grandfather was in Germany and worked as a slave for IG Farben while being internated in Dachau.

As you can see poland suffered on many ways. Not this "systematic" killing as the Polish jews but Polish ppl were the "Unterrasse" - Underrace in english. They were literaly slaves for the Nazis.

I dont know how it was on other parts of Poland but i think not too much other way.

Greetings

Groove

well first executions started in bydgoszcz during the september campaign in 1939 and were comited without doubt by Wermacht (they executed ppl on the market square just after capturing the city) Near Poznan polish POWs were tied with barbedwire and then burnt in barn, also wermacht work not SS nor police so wermacht started their carrer in poland of coude there were also good ppl in Wermacht one of them rescued my mather when she was child by probiding medicine for her.

In warsaw there was rule that for every killed by polish underground german soldiers 10 civilians wer executed...they (civilians) were chosed not from criminals but from ordinary ppl it was caled "Łapanki" and it means "Catching" germans blocked road then gathered ppl who were nearby and everybody who wasnt enployed in military industry was send to Concentration Camp or executed in street executions. It's the reason why polish underground fighted outside the cities since civilians suffered from actions inside the cities only top ranking germans were executed in street action like SS general (or colonel) Kutshera.

GRAPHIC
Poles executed by germans for helping jews
http://www.kki.krakow.pl/pioinf/przemysl/dzieje/Image16.JPG
Poles (54) executed for killing 2 germans by partisans
http://www.bochnia.pl/imghist/uzbornia.gif

[Groove]

Of course Wehrmacht commited crimes in Poland. But where my Grandpa is from its only little villages and he told my about the Front-Soldiers beeing "good" ppl to the civilians as i already mentioned.

I think the cituation were other in cities when some Waffen-SS were attacking with the regular troops.

Przemysl is not too far from where im from.

Groove

[Groove]

Fount this on the web:

http://savingjews.info/

[tony6]

S'13:
So You are supposed to be representative of young Jewish generation?
If so-I'm thrilled by those bull**** You still believe in (and being taught in schools...)

[Javehn]

Before i will break my computer on someone's head ,cose i am ****en tired of reading the bull**** you ****en saying .

I am thrilled that you are thrilled of almost total anihilation of jewish people . I am thrilled that you also call it bull**** , you ****en asshole .
I bet you would also be thrilled , if i would break your head one day , i bet that isn't taught in your school . I would love to show you , how can a represantative from young jewish generation can brake your bones .

What the hell you idiot mean by that ?Next time you do writting , choose your words better , or read better what is said . He said that many Poles saved Jewish lifes .

[S'13]

S'13:
So You are supposed to be representative of young Jewish generation?
If so-I'm thrilled by those bull**** You still believe in (and being taught in schools...)

I am not a representative of anyone. Does the fact that I mentioned that some Poles helped the Nazis commit atrocities and crimes againts their fellow countrymen piss you off? Well I'm sorry but if you look in the history books you will see that it's true (I didn't learn this in school). These occurrences didn't just happen in Poland but also in the Ukraine, Lithuania and other countries under German occupation at the time of the Second World War. If you read my response carefully you will see that I also wrote that many Poles saved Jews at great risk.

[ArmedPacifist]

When faced with facts you revert to throwing the whole "10 billion people died! you think that's cool?!" or whatever.....

The holocaust did happen, but the numbers are not as high as you want to believe. Shouldn't you be relieved that there were less people killed? Or do you want more dead? Wouldn't that make YOU the person who is feeling good about "jewish annihiliation"?

[Javehn]

When faced with facts you revert to throwing the whole "10 billion people died! you think that's cool?!" or whatever.....

The holocaust did happen, but the numbers are not as high as you want to believe. Shouldn't you be relieved that there were less people killed? Or do you want more dead? Wouldn't that make YOU the person who is feeling good about "jewish annihiliation"?

And shouldn't it make you an idiot , who has no idea what he is writting about ? Yes , i want to go and dance on my grandfather grave first , and half of my family also . Idiots never die , aren't they ? First of all , finish your highschool . and get a little of your facts together , before writting on that matter from your ass .

[ArmedPacifist]

Not really. The numbers were one of the last things posted before you threatned to smack keyboards over peoples heads.

[Javehn]

So what the hell you wrote about ? To whom you were responding ? What the hell you wanted to say by your post ??

[ArmedPacifist]

I'm sorry I should have made this clear.

Javehn, tony6 is allowed to think whatever he wants to think. Whether he is correct in saying it is all bull**** or not. No ammount of internet threats from you will stop that.

[S'13]

When faced with facts you revert to throwing the whole "10 billion people died! you think that's cool?!" or whatever.....

The holocaust did happen, but the numbers are not as high as you want to believe. Shouldn't you be relieved that there were less people killed? Or do you want more dead? Wouldn't that make YOU the person who is feeling good about "jewish annihiliation"?

I ask of you not to use the term "killed" when referring to the victims of the Holocaust, it's not as if they were "killed" in an accident. They were systematically murdered.

[ArmedPacifist]

If a group is systemically killed then it is genocide not murder.....
How many were killed? Nobody knows for sure these days. But the numbers drop every few years.

[Javehn]

If a group is systemically killed then it is genocide not murder.....
How many were killed? Nobody knows for sure these days. But the numbers drop every few years.

Aha , i see. So , you suggesting , that the Holocaust never happened , that "only" 200,000 jews died , but those evil jews pumped the numbers in order to acheave several political and financial goals ?

[S'13]

If a group is systemically killed then it is genocide not murder.....
How many were killed? Nobody knows for sure these days. But the numbers drop every few years.

When a person kills another person intentionally, it's called murder. I have nothing againts the term genocide. But it must be made clear that the victims of the Holocaust were murdered. The term mass murder is also used in many cases to describe what the Nazis did, genocide is mass murder of people of a certain ethnic group. As for the number of people murdered, the assessments are mostly from Nazi documents. By the way, how many people do you think were murdered in the Holocaust?

[ArmedPacifist]

If a group is systemically killed then it is genocide not murder.....
How many were killed? Nobody knows for sure these days. But the numbers drop every few years.

Aha , i see. So , you suggesting , that the Holocaust never happened , that "only" 200,000 jews died , but those evil jews pumped the numbers in order to acheave several political and financial goals ?

You did exactly what I said you would do (see above). Congratulations for proving my point.

[ArmedPacifist]

If a group is systemically killed then it is genocide not murder.....
How many were killed? Nobody knows for sure these days. But the numbers drop every few years.

When a person kills another person intentionally, it's called murder. I have nothing againts the term genocide. But it must be made clear that the victims of the Holocaust were murdered. The term mass murder is also used in many cases to describe what the Nazis did, genocide is mass murder of people of a certain ethnic group. As for the number of people murdered, the assessments are mostly from Nazi documents. By the way, how many people do you think were murdered in the Holocaust?

Actually these terms are quite flexible. If a man kills another man, it is not always murder. It could be manslaughter, self defense or many other things.

I wouldn't put a number out, because as I said it keeps changing.

[Groove]

For the victims its not really important how they died. The "Body Count" is always the same. If you are shot by a nazi, gassed by a nazi or bombed by a B17 Bomber.

So you would say that there were for example 2 million jews murdered. Some hundret thousands manslaughtered, some hundred thousand accidentaly died on their traveling to Auschwitz-Brikenau ?

Man - dead is dead !

Groove

[UoUo]

Sad :(

[S'13]

If a group is systemically killed then it is genocide not murder.....
How many were killed? Nobody knows for sure these days. But the numbers drop every few years.

When a person kills another person intentionally, it's called murder. I have nothing againts the term genocide. But it must be made clear that the victims of the Holocaust were murdered. The term mass murder is also used in many cases to describe what the Nazis did, genocide is mass murder of people of a certain ethnic group. As for the number of people murdered, the assessments are mostly from Nazi documents. By the way, how many people do you think were murdered in the Holocaust?

Actually these terms are quite flexible. If a man kills another man, it is not always murder. It could be manslaughter, self defense or many other things.



I wrote that murder is when a person kills another person intentionally. And I think we can agree that what the Nazis did wasn't "self defence".

[ArmedPacifist]

That wasn't my point.....

[S'13]

That wasn't my point.....

So please explain what was your point...

[Javehn]

It seams that no one can understand his points . I can't . Maybe he himself can't .What are you trying to say , explain it please.What is your point , that i happend to proove ? The only thing i am seeing here so far , that you are trying to disrespect holocaust . That is what i see.

If you have any thoughts on that matter , keep them away from me . I have a family members dying there. It's all nice you trying to explain me numbers here , but sorry , i can't hear you without bias on this matter .

All i see here , that you talk about that delicate matter , like it's some daily trouble and missunderstanding , that's what i see .

[ArmedPacifist]

If a group is systemically killed then it is genocide not murder.....
How many were killed? Nobody knows for sure these days. But the numbers drop every few years.

When a person kills another person intentionally, it's called murder. I have nothing againts the term genocide. But it must be made clear that the victims of the Holocaust were murdered. The term mass murder is also used in many cases to describe what the Nazis did, genocide is mass murder of people of a certain ethnic group. As for the number of people murdered, the assessments are mostly from Nazi documents. By the way, how many people do you think were murdered in the Holocaust?

Actually these terms are quite flexible. If a man kills another man, it is not always murder. It could be manslaughter, self defense or many other things.



I wrote that murder is when a person kills another person intentionally. And I think we can agree that what the Nazis did wasn't "self defence".

My point originally is that tony6 can say whatever he wants to say.

Then you had a problem with me using the word killed and I explained that it doesn't matter what my choice of words were it doesn't change anything.

I've said this a few times. If you would just read....

I bet if you actually look up at my posts above you will see those exact words already put out for you.

And Javehn, everyimte I say something you twist it around to "Oh so your saying the holocaust never happened? You ****ing nazi" even though I said nothing to that extent. I merely suggested the numbers were a little lower.

I think you have en English comprehension problem as you have said many times you don't understand me. So what is the point of arguing if you know you will misinterpret me?

[S'13]

Then you had a problem with me using the word killed and I explained that it doesn't matter what my choice of words were it doesn't change anything.

Your right, it doesn't change a thing but I think it's more appropriate to use the word murdered when referring to victims of the Holocaust. If you insist on using the word killed I won't get upset or anything, all I did was ask of you to use the word murderd since in my opinion and in the opinion of many others it is more appropriate. Anyway I think were going in circles on this discussion and we should leave it like it is.

[Herrmannek]

O.K. I will try to simplify that misunderstundings here...
1)I'm sure that tony wasn't doubting holocaust, he just said that BS is what you thinkk and say about Polish involvment in it...he probably undrestood from S'13 post that he think that Poles were involed in Holocaust as killers not as victims, so if S'13 was realy trying to say that he should shame as Poles weren't involved in holocaust in other way Jews were....
2) About numbers...Armed Pacifist is right...Body counts were made wery "optimistic" and without proper tools...many people were counted few times ie as Poles and as Jews and as Lithuanians, Many people moved from their oryginal locations so they were counted as dead, number of deported or killed were only rude aproximations etc. Holocaust was and that is sure but number of deaths is inflated still don't know how much, also amount of people died in military opaerations is not acurate...

Happy New Year Mates :)

[Javehn]

First of all , yes , happy new year .

Second , yes , there was a missunderstanding here . Tony don't like to have some reading done , so he blaimed S13 on accusation of Polans being Jews killers .

That's while S13 said , that not only Polans were wictoms as jews , they actually also helped them .

And snowball went down from there . I got mad , because that issue is to touchy for me , Armed Pacifist jumped on this , without any understanding and started making accusation .

S13 ment : Polans were wictoms like jews , many of them killed . Huge numbers actually . Yes , some of them joined SS , and some of them killed jews by themselfes , but that happened in every country Germans went thrue . The fact is , that they were most helpfull to save jews there , while suffering by themselfes .

I don't know how you missunderstood that , i can understand that sometimes you understand what you want to , without do the reading.

No one refferes that the numbers are correct , so what ? I don't care if 6,000,000 million jews died , or 6,000 . That was still genocide , were members of my family killed . So , again ... It is good to read and understand what is being said here sometimes . And specially on that kind of matter . That's allright by your book , Armed Pacifist to jump here , while you even don't know what is written here on that touchy matter ??? If you talking about that subject , at list read and understand what is been written here . You are the one , i see that neads understanding lessons .

Be very carefull also , asshole , when you calling people Nazies next time .

[Rantanplan]

@ you all:

:cantbeli:

[UoUo]

If you use the claim that nobody cn know how much people died in the genocide....so the number can be even higher then 6 million...thoght about that ?


Personally i know 1 fact : all my mother family were died in the gencide...and all my father family died in the genocide...

[Herrmannek]

First of all , yes , happy new year .

Second , yes , there was a missunderstanding here . Tony don't like to have some reading done , so he blaimed S13 on accusation of Polans being Jews killers .

That's while S13 said , that not only Polans were wictoms as jews , they actually also helped them .


Don't want to nitpic but Jews also were helping nazis and colaborating, do you know how many times Poles and Jews were denounced by other Jews?




And snowball went down from there . I got mad , because that issue is to touchy for me , Armed Pacifist jumped on this , without any understanding and started making accusation .

S13 ment : Polans were wictoms like jews , many of them killed . Huge numbers actually . Yes , some of them joined SS , and some of them killed jews by themselfes , but that happened in every country Germans went thrue . The fact is , that they were most helpfull to save jews there , while suffering by themselfes .


Thanks for understanding, but ussualy "Poles" who jojned SS weren't Poles, they were from german minorities as we had many of them at the time so you must be careful when talking about such things
Minorities Percentage at 1921 in Poland:
http://www.republika.pl/gensikorski/sch1.gif
Ukrainians=Ukraińcy
Jews=Żydzi
Bielorusians=Białorusini
Germans=Niemcy
Other=Inni
Poles=Polacy



I don't know how you missunderstood that , i can understand that sometimes you understand what you want to , without do the reading.


But sometimes you must be carefull what are you saying....:)



No one refferes that the numbers are correct , so what ? I don't care if 6,000,000 million jews died , or 6,000 . That was still genocide , were members of my family killed . So , again ... It is good to read and understand what is being said here sometimes . And specially on that kind of matter . That's allright by your book , Armed Pacifist to jump here , while you even don't know what is written here on that touchy matter ??? If you talking about that subject , at list read and understand what is been written here . You are the one , i see that neads understanding lessons .


Yes numbers aren't importand esspecialy in context of that Stalins saying
"one is tradegy millions are statistic" :(



Be very carefull also , asshole , when you calling people Nazies next time .

I hope you weren't directing that at me, but if you were, esspecialy in response to Massacre in Koniuchy: I never said that Jews are Nazis only that everywhere you can find black sheeps so picking others guilts before own is very sad as you should start cleaning from your own yard.

[tony6]

Well I see that I have to explain:
I was thrilled by those stereotypical bull**** You still believe-that many Polish people colaboratred with Nazis but only some of them helped Jewish people to survive.
Didn't You ever happen to ask Yourself a simple question: why there were so many Jews in Poland before war?
They were banishing from all countries during the ages but not from Poland!
There were couple of millions of them because they had a lot of freedom in our country. Poland was pretty tolerant country during the history my friends. Christians, Jews and Muslims were living in this country in peace.
There was no such thing as great inquisition in Poland (as it was in Spain).
Jews had pretty good conditions to live here.
WWII ended this in very brutal way but we are not responsible for this.

As for Jedwabne:
there was very precise investigation (by IPN) and national discussion in Poland. And investigation showed clearly-yes, there were about 300-400 people murdered and YES-Polish people were also involved and YES - we are responsible for that. Every citizen in Poland knows this very well now and it will be in historical manuals. President Kwasniewski officialy apologized to the Jewish nation during the ceremony in Jedwabne.
We are aware of those facts very well now-You don't have to remind it to us.
We (Poles) were always thinking of ourselves as a victims of that horrible war but now we know that sometimes we were also executioners...
Times changed and now there is no censorship and we have to investigate all dark holes in our history.
(for example-execution of German POWs after battle in Falaise)
But don't forget that thousands of Polish people we killed for helping Jews and don't forget that many Jews colaborated with Soviets after the war and they were selling former AK soldiers to the security officers. Many Polish soldiers who returned to Poland after the war was tortured and murdered by communists. So-while pointing out our crimes-don't forget about Yours. It was very cruel times and noone is without giult-we are only humans.

BTW:
Happy New Year to all of You.

[Javehn]

Yes , and that's exactly what S13 said , tony. He said exactly the same thing as you just wrote right now .

[S'13]

Don't want to nitpic but Jews also were helping nazis and colaborating, do you know how many times Poles and Jews were denounced by other Jews?

Jews who collaborated with the Nazis did so in order to be of some use to the Nazis and thus be spared (not that it clears them of their crimes). Most Poles who helped the Nazis commit atrocities against Jews did so out of anti-Semitism (like in the case of Jedwabne).


For several decades following WWII, the subject of the treatment of the Poles towards the Jews during the Holocaust was cloaked in a conspiracy of silence.

It was not until 1987, with the publication of Jan Bloński's groundbreaking essay "Poor Poles Look at the Ghetto," in Tygodnik Powszechny, that the taboo was lifted and the subject entered the public arena.

Bloński wrote about the shared guilt of the countries and peoples of Europe for the Holocaust, stressing that this guilt should be expressed with particular force in Poland, a country in which so many Jews lived for so many centuries. He touched upon this painful reality without hesitation, but he also expressed relief that the worst evil had passed Poland by: "When one reads what people wrote about the Jews before the war, how much hatred there was in Polish society, one often wonders how it is that words were never followed by deeds. Well, they were not (or were seldom) followed by deeds."

That is what Bloński thought, and that is also what many friends of Poland thought until recently. In light of the 2001 publication of Polish historian, Professor Jan Thomasz Gross's Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, which exposed the 10 July 1941 massacre of Jews in the northeastern Polish town of Jedwabne at the hands of their Polish neighbors (and not as previously thought at the hand of the Nazis), one can no longer claim that genocide was alien to the Poles during the Holocaust.

According to Gross's account, which was assembled from survivor testimonies, postwar trial transcripts, and a memorial book, the 1,600 Jewish inhabitants of the 200-year-old market town of 2,500 people were ordered to the town square by the town's mayor, Marian Karolak, for the ostensible purpose of cleaning up the grounds. Once assembled, the Polish townspeople began to chase their Jewish neighbors throughout the streets, butchering them to death with, among other implements, stones, clubs, whips, and knives. The majority of Jews were then taken to a nearby barn were they were forced inside and burned alive.


Page of Testimony from Jedwabne
The massacre at Jedwabne clearly exceeds the pattern of universal indifference or marginal deviation. This is the murder of over 60 percent of the inhabitants of an impoverished town by their compatriots and neighbors with whom the victims had lived for generations. This massacre committed only because the victims were Jews is an unheard of, incomprehensible atrocity. The tools and the methods by which mass murder was committed against defenseless people, completely at the mercy of their tormentors, illustrate an incredible breakdown of humanity.

So how was this atrocity possible, and what was the origin of so much pent-up fury and bloodlust? And finally: How is it that the murder of some 1,600 people in the heart of a town has stunned us 60 years after the event, like an unexpected archeological discovery?

Knowledge of the mass murder committed in Jedwabne is an enormous shock to Poles, one that clashes with their national myth about the war years. The continuing series of articles in the press, the public debates and discussions, have concentrated not solely on Jedwabne, but also on a wide range of issues such as antisemitism in Poland, Polish-Jewish relations at the time of the profound changes that occurred during and after the turbulent war years, and the question and dimensions of the responsibility for Jedwabne.

Generally speaking, the wide-ranging debate has been concluded in a mood of contemplation. The majority of Poland's 100 Catholic bishops recently held an unprecedented ceremony in Warsaw to publicly apologize for the Jedwabne massacre and for the suffering of other Jews at the hands of Catholics during WWII. In a public 10 July ceremony marking the 60th anniversary of the Jedwabne massacre, President of Poland, Aleksander Kwasniewski, asked for forgiveness on behalf of his country for crimes committed by the Polish people against the Jews during the Holocaust.

The Polish people's readiness to recognize the fact that Polish history is not a glorious account of heroism and justice, but contains episodes of brutality against weak and innocent people, does not have to signify a spiritual collapse, but can instead result in the act of self-reflection.

The Polish nation has experienced a long history of bondage and martyrdom. The well-worn self-portrait of Poland has always portrayed the country as a victim fighting for its right to existence. Now is the time—and not only because of the shadow of Jedwabne to accept the fact that the inter-war history of independent Poland, followed by successive chapters of its history, are stained with crimes against its own citizens who looked to their country for aid and understanding.

Are the Poles, therefore, a nation of incorrigible antisemites? Such a sweeping statement is in itself unjust and bears something of the plague of antisemitism. It is true that antisemitism has embedded itself deeply in the Polish consciousness over the past few generations, that it existed during the war and occupation, and that it made itself sharply felt after the war. It was expressed in the wave of killings in the 1940s, in the Kielce pogrom of 1946, and in the expulsion of Jews in 1968-1969, the result of squabbling between Communist party factions.

At the same time, a relatively large number of Poles occupy an honorable place among the Righteous Among the Nations for helping hunted Jews at the risk, and sometimes with the loss, of their lives and the lives of their families. They did so selflessly, and with ceaseless effort, for people whom they did not know, and consequently lived in constant fear, for as is generally acknowledged, the task of rescuing Jews was especially difficult and dangerous in Poland.

Nor are the institutions representing the Polish people during the occupation—the government in exile in London and the underground Home Army in Poland responsible for the Jedwabne atrocity, even if they did little to alleviate Jewish misery and fate.

So is no one responsible for the massacre in Jedwabne? A lot has been said about individual responsibility or limited local responsibility, and various aspects of responsibility and guilt have been examined in detail. It has also been said that the entire nation and its future generations should not be held responsible for the sins of a small, remote town.

Such a manner of gauging responsibility is mistaken. There is such a thing as the personal responsibility of the perpetrators, but that is only one side of the coin. There is no denying that the evil force of what happened in Jedwabne was nourished by a widespread dislike of Jews. This hostility, which reached its peak in Poland in the 1930s required the Jews, who had lived in Poland for centuries, to be seen as a threat to the state, and a threat that ought to be eliminated. This antisemitism was not just imported from outside, but grew on Polish soil, on Polish home ground.

The regime of lawlessness and disregard for human life imposed by the Germans provoked the massacre in Jedwabne, a tragedy which is but a small part of the enormous devastation of the Holocaust—yet it is a tragedy for the Jews and a chapter in the history of the Poles.

[Herrmannek]

Don't want to nitpic but Jews also were helping nazis and colaborating, do you know how many times Poles and Jews were denounced by other Jews?

Jews who collaborated with the Nazis did so in order to be of some use to the Nazis and thus be spared (not that it clears them of their crimes). Most Poles who helped the Nazis commit atrocities against Jews did so out of anti-Semitism (like in the case of Jedwabne).

It's again not that simple there was many reasons for colaborting with Nazis not only because of anti-semitizm, take a look at chechenya there is no "anti-semizm" and people still denounce their neberhoods to Russians.

Money: Germans payed for "usseful" informations to both Poles and Jews...
Fear: People were affraid that for hiding Jews or partisans whole building will be killed so they didn't want to risk their lives and denounced any suspicous activites...
Personal Hates: Both in case of Jews and Poles, nazis were often used as personal vendeta tool.
Hope:As you said people thought that they or they relatives will be spared if they reaveal some inforamtions as a bribe...

And as I said before, you should be very careful when saying "Poles did smth" as 30% of polish citizens weren't Polish nationality.

[S'13]

Don't want to nitpic but Jews also were helping nazis and colaborating, do you know how many times Poles and Jews were denounced by other Jews?

Jews who collaborated with the Nazis did so in order to be of some use to the Nazis and thus be spared (not that it clears them of their crimes). Most Poles who helped the Nazis commit atrocities against Jews did so out of anti-Semitism (like in the case of Jedwabne).

It's again not that simple there was many reasons for colaborting with Nazis not only because of anti-semitizm, take a look at chechenya there is no "anti-semizm" and people still denounce their neberhoods to Russians.

Money: Germans payed for "usseful" informations to both Poles and Jews...
Fear: People were affraid that for hiding Jews or partisans whole building will be killed so they didn't want to risk their lives and denounced any suspicous activites...
Personal Hates: Both in case of Jews and Poles, nazis were often used as personal vendeta tool.
Hope:As you said people thought that they or they relatives will be spared if they reaveal some inforamtions as a bribe...

And as I said before, you should be very careful when saying "Poles did smth" as 30% of polish citizens weren't Polish nationality.

I'm not talking about denouncing your neighbor but actually murdering him like in the case of Jedwabne. Ok so I will refer to them as the non Jewish citizens of Poland.

[S'13]

As for the numbers of people murdered in the Holocaust. Everyone should know these numbers are from Nazi documents, the Germans were very "tidy" and wrote everything...

[Herrmannek]

I'm not talking about denouncing your neighbor but actually murdering him like in the case of Jedwabne. Ok so I will refer to them as the non Jewish citizens of Poland.
Didn't understood you then I thought you are talking about antisemitizm in general, I'll try to find reliable Polish info about that in english...for now: article about Jedvabne not biased by hatred warior Gross :) :
http://www.polishnews.com/fulltext/interview/2002/interview75_2.shtml

[Herrmannek]

As for the numbers of people killed in the Holocaust. Everyone should know these numbers are from Nazi documents, the Germans were very "tidy" and wrote everything...

Yes when talking about Jews,Gypsis and those who were killed in orginised way(like death camps...) numbers are most sure but still not sure, but when talking about other losses everything starts to mess even with german meticulousness...

[Saranof]

As for the numbers of people killed in the Holocaust. Everyone should know these numbers are from Nazi documents, the Germans were very "tidy" and wrote everything...

Yes when talking about Jews,Gypsis and those who were killed in orginised way(like death camps...) numbers are most sure but still not sure, but when talking about other losses everything starts to mess even with german meticulousness...


Also remember that at the end of 1944, when Gremany was losing and they hadn't "killed enough" jews, the camp supervisors were scared ****less that Hitler would do the same to them for not doing what he wished, they "spiced up" some numbers to make themselves look better on the paper.

I agree with the general feeling here, that the numbers of jews killed was probly smaller than the 6 million.
BUT it still happened.





However, I still feel that for a people who were persecuted and imprisoned, they should knwo how it feels and not do the same to a people in thier land...

[S'13]

However, I still feel that for a people who were persecuted and imprisoned, they should knwo how it feels and not do the same to a people in thier land...

I just knew this was going to come up, it is so predictable...
"Not do the same" you say, what do we do the same? Do we put Palestinians on trains and send them to extermination camps and then gas them and cremate them? Also before you make comparisons, did you ever hear of how Jews used to blow themselves up in coffee shops and restaurants in Berlin?

[Herrmannek]

However, I still feel that for a people who were persecuted and imprisoned, they should knwo how it feels and not do the same to a people in thier land...

I just knew this was going to come up, it is so predictable...
"Not do the same" you say, what do we do the same? Do we put Palestinians on trains and send them to extermination camps and then gas them and cremate them? Also before you make comparisons, did you ever hear of how Jews used to blow themselves up in coffee shops and restaurants in Berlin?

Plz Stop :)

[S'13]

However, I still feel that for a people who were persecuted and imprisoned, they should knwo how it feels and not do the same to a people in thier land...

I just knew this was going to come up, it is so predictable...
"Not do the same" you say, what do we do the same? Do we put Palestinians on trains and send them to extermination camps and then gas them and cremate them? Also before you make comparisons, did you ever hear of how Jews used to blow themselves up in coffee shops and restaurants in Berlin?

Plz Stop :)

Sorry, but it's just that every time the Holocaust is mentioned in a topic someone comes up and says "you should know better" and starts preaching us ethics and makes idiotic comparisons.

[Herrmannek]

Sorry, but it's just that every time the Holocaust is mentioned in a topic someone comes up and says "you should know better" and starts preaching us ethics and makes idiotic comparisons.

Just some think that what you are doing with Palestinians have something in common nazis done to you...Because of few shalow similiarites betwen yours situation at WWII and current situation of Palestinians. Just ignore their ignorance or try to explain calmly why they are wrong, don't demand from everybody knowledge about your country as big as yours.

[S'13]

Sorry, but it's just that every time the Holocaust is mentioned in a topic someone comes up and says "you should know better" and starts preaching us ethics and makes idiotic comparisons.

Just some think that what you are doing with Palestinians have something in common nazis done to you...Because of few shalow similiarites betwen yours situation at WWII and current situation of Palestinians. Just ignore their ignorance or try to explain calmly why they are wrong, don't demand from everybody knowledge about your country as big as yours.

I don't demand anyone to have as much knowledge as I do about my country but if they had any knowledge at all about the situation (or common sense for that matter) they wouldn't make such comparisons.

[Shadow]

I don't care if 6,000,000 million jews died , or 6,000 .
There are only around 6 Mrd people on earth.

[podkus]

To All Israeli friends:
And now I dont know, who should be feel guilty about Holocaust, Germany or Poland? (rhetorical question)

[2Sheds_Jackson]

It's remarkable how much emotion this topic still stirs up. Nobody on this board is responsible for what happened. No government still in existence is responsible for what happened. So nobody of any nationality should feel personal "guilt" over what went on.

But in order to maintain our humanity we must continue to recognize what did occur. That there is clearly a difference between warfare and murder. We will never know exact numbers, but the Germans were meticulous record keepers. We used that information to hang a whole bunch of people after the war.

Many of those records are now online at the Smithsonian Institution website - some detailing the medical experiments etc. It's worth noting that some of the most mundane documents are the most damning. Blueprints for death camp ovens, orders for gas canisters, purchase orders for "recovered" materials, etc.. Clearly very many people, even outside the military knew exactly what was happening, and didn't seem to care much.

Hatred and xenophobia are not restricted by national boundaries. They're found everywhere. Of course the Germans found allies in all occupied countries, and for many different reasons. I see this as an indictment of human nature, not so much for any particular country.

Clearly some people are more interested in downplaying the genocide. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I don't know what purpose can be served by doing this. Either these folks feel some kind of personal guilt due to their heritage or nationality - which they shouldn't - or they themselves don't feel that it was a bad thing that happened and are defending it. Or maybe they're just being jerks...

[Kitsune]

The whole organisation and proceedings of the Holocaust needed tens of thousands of people, perhaps hundreds of thousands. Those who had reasons to suspect something numbered perhaps even a million people...
This may seem a lot...but there were 70 million people in the Reich back then. So only a minority knew or suspected.
This is supported by the fact that there was nearly no jeweish resistance (the one notable exception is the warsaw ghetto uprising). They mostly meekly folowed the orders to be transferred at some places like "Auschwitz"...they did not expect something pleasant, but also had no idea that they would be killed for sure. This is something that influences Jewish/Israeli people to this day...that the Nazis could slaughter them like animals...and many vowed that something like this will never happen again.

Being a German born long after the war I know that I am personally innocent. Even my parents were born after the war. My grandfathers were a field surgeon on the western front and a cook on the eastern front...none of them were even in the Nazi party.
I have visited quite a few foreign nations and have met quite a few foreign people. I found most of them not so different from Germans, the potential for hate or uncaring behaviour seems to be no different.
But nonetheless I feel somehow tainted.

That some Germans try to downplay the events of the Holocaust is obvious. But it is also obvious that the Holocaust is used by many not Germans again and again. Its the main propaganda weapon against Germany...to paint the picture of the ugly Nazi (do you really want to buy cars build by such a people? Buy ours instead !!) Or to German feelings of guilt are used to ones advantage when negotiating with them.
Perhaps in a hundred years things are different.

[Loco]

About holocaust, I saw a tv documental filmed by the french director Claude Lanzmann called "Shoa", 9 hours about holocaust meticulously reserchead, with a lot of interviews, it´s the best document I´ve seen about that, better than any other book, documental or movie I´ve read or seen before, because nothing more after that documental added new things to my aknowledgment. One of the interviews was with a young german woman then, born may be in the 60´s, and she was the daughter of a german killer that by any reason survived Nuremberg trials. She confessed that in her chilhood her father was a good man, she thought that, and she grew up innocent, but when she was a teen she learnt about his father´s past and she crumbled emotionally and never more respected his father, even she couldn´t evite criying ashamed in front of the camera. Clearly, this woman is innocent and in some aspect she´s a victim too, who could accuse her?. But I don´t think few germans knew about holocaust, it was imposible ignoring it, when you see suddenly your neighbour is treated like an animal, oblied to wear a yellow star and prevented of working in his profession, this is a serious thing, for saying the less, and if you don´t move a finger, where, you can be a cooker or a clown but you don´t pretend being an ignorant. Shoa is not melodramatic, is cold and exact: nazis have to move across ALL europe trains loaded with about 10.000 people, they were train-convoys and it was neccessary a great coordination between all train stations of half of europe, involving a lot of people and civil contractors.
Here in Spain we had or own genocide 60 years ago, the problem we have is hangmen and victims were both spanish. Every body claims here that republicans or rebels were murderers, but nobody says: "I murdered people", or "I didn´t see anyting" but there were deads everwhere, here still there are murderers of that time alive and nobody could send them to court becasue some people say: but the people of the other side were murderesr too. It´s sad, but almost any country could do a genocide.
And at last, the history of 60 years ago is really really a serious matter, and I think Germany was lucky enough in the way it was treated both by russians and westerns allied, any german can´t complain about it, other countries were victims of Germany and they suffered more than them after the war. A country must load with the good and the bad things of their history.
Kitsune, don´t be worry, I think nobody seriously is going to call you "nazi", and germans go up and downs through europe safety.
Btw, if people don´t buy germans cars because they are "nazis", many others buy it because they are "german engineering" and hey! Ferraris are italian engineering, and don´t tell me you can do something better than that!!!

[2Sheds_Jackson]

The one thing I've personally heard about people not buying German for reasons like that are - my father in law (who's Jewish) refused to buy or even shop for a BMW because the company never made restitution to the families of the forced labor it used. Many other German companies have - like Mercedes, I think.
It's a valid point, since this happened so recently - many of the victims are still alive, and so are many who profited from the labor. The company stockholders profited from the forced labor, the workers should be compensated. Hey at the wage rate that BMW workers make now, a couple of years salary would be a good amount of $$

[Mr. Nielsen]

But I don´t think few germans knew about holocaust, it was imposible ignoring it, when you see suddenly your neighbour is treated like an animal, oblied to wear a yellow star and prevented of working in his profession, this is a serious thing

I haven't seen the series but i'm a bit sceptical as to who knew what.

What happened before world war two was discrimination, apartheid, mob violence etc. and finally etnic cleansing. If i'm not mistaken nearly all jews had left Germany by time the war started. And it had been seen elsewhere at the time (black people in US for instance, though not US government policy of course) and unfortunately it has been seen again after ww2.

[Mr. Nielsen]

Also.

Holocaust happened outside Germany. I believe all the death camps were placed in occupied Poland, remote areas if I'm not mistaken. So there would be quite few witnesses to them. Mass shootings on the other hand happened all over, and there must have far more witnesses to them.

So I'm not so sure about how many would know, from seing a train transport of jews through germany, that an industrialised mass murder of unseen proportions were going on. And those that knew from having seen mass shootings, been camp guards, been architects designing the gas chambers, would be risking their lives telling the story. And they would also risk not being believed at all.

[S'13]

Also.

Holocaust happened outside Germany. I believe all the death camps were placed in occupied Poland, remote areas if I'm not mistaken. So there would be quite few witnesses to them. Mass shootings on the other hand happened all over, and there must have far more witnesses to them.

So I'm not so sure about how many would know, from seing a train transport of jews through germany, that an industrialised mass murder of unseen proportions were going on. And those that knew from having seen mass shootings, been camp guards, been architects designing the gas chambers, would be risking their lives telling the story. And they would also risk not being believed at all.


Germans knew of Holocaust horror about death camps

John Ezard
The mass of ordinary Germans did know about the evolving terror of Hitler's Holocaust, according to a new research study. They knew concentration camps were full of Jewish people who were stigmatised as sub-human and race-defilers. They knew that these, like other groups and minorities, were being killed out of hand.
They knew that Adolf Hitler had repeatedly forecast the extermination of every Jew on German soil. They knew these details because they had read about them. They knew because the camps and the measures which led up to them had been prominently and proudly reported step by step in thousands of officially-inspired German media articles and posters according to the study, which is due to be published simultaneously in Britain and the US early next month and which was described as ground-breaking by Oxford University Press yesterday and already hailed by other historians.

The reports, in newspapers and magazines all over the country were phases in a public process of "desensitisation" which worked all too well, culminating in the killing of 6m Jews, says Robert Gellately. His book, Backing Hitler, is based on the first systematic analysis by a historian of surviving German newspaper and magazine archives since 1933, the year Hitler became chancellor. The survey took hundreds of hours and yielded dozens of folders of photocopies, many of them from the 24 main newspapers and magazines of the period.

Landmark
Its results, Professor Gellately says, destroy the claim - generally made by Germans after Berlin fell in 1945 and accepted by most historians - that they did not know about camp atrocities. He concludes by indicating that the only thing many Germans may not have known about was the use of industrial-scale gas chambers because, unusually, no media reports were allowed of this "final solution". However, by the end of the war camps were all over the country and many Germans worked in them.

Yesterday OUP said his study exposed "once and for all the substantial consent and active participation of large numbers of ordinary Germans". Its head of historical publishing, Ruth Parr, called it a landmark study of the terror. "He asks and answers some very difficult questions about how much the ordinary German people knew about the Nazi atrocities, and to what degree they supported them," she said.

A leading British-born Holocaust historian, Professor Michael Burleigh, said the book was "original and outstanding, genuinely important". Another authority on the camps, Professor Omer Bartov, of Brown University, Rhode Island, US, described Backing Hitler as "path-breaking - a crucial contribution to our understanding of the relationship between consent and coercion in modern dictatorship".

Conventional wisdom among post war historians has been that - as Lord Dahrendorf, ex-warden of St Antony's College, Oxford, says in his study Society and Democracy in Germany (1966) - "It is certainly true that most Germans 'did not know' about National Socialist crimes of violence; nothing precise, that is, because they did not ask any questions_." A common explanation among influential modern German historians, including Hans-Ulrich Thamer in his study Wooing and Violence (1986) is that the Nazis "seduced" an unwilling or passive public.

Gellately, professor in Holocaust history at Clark University, Massachusetts, offers a mass of detail to support the theme of an earlier work, Daniel Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners, which caused an international sensation in 1995. Goldhagen's theme was that "what the Nazis actually did was to unshackle and thereby activate Germans' pre-existing, pent-up anti-semitism".

Gellately began his inquiry after finding a press report -published as routine - of a woman reported to the Gestapo for "looking Jewish" and allegedly having *** with a neighbour. "For decades my generation had been told that so much of the terror had been carried out in complete secrecy," he writes.

His media trawl, with a research assistant, found that as early as 1933 local papers reported the killing of 12 prisoners by guards at Dachau, the first to be set up as a "model" concentration camp initially for communists. On May 23 the Dachauer Zeitung said the camp was Germany's most famous place and brought "new hope to the Dachau business world". By 1934 the main and widely read Nazi-owned paper Volkische Beobachter was reporting a widening of policy to other "political criminals" including Jews accused of race defilement. By 1936 communist prisoners were no longer mentioned: in a photo-essay in the SS paper Das Schwarze Korps emphasised the camps as places for "race defilers, rapists, ****** degenerates and habitual criminals".

This broadening mission, as Gellately calls it, was reflected in Volkische Beobachter photographs of "typical subhumans" including Jews with "deformed headshapes". For the first time their detention was said to be permanent. In January, 1937 Berliner Borsen Zeitung reported the SS chief Heinrich Himmler as announcing the need for "still more camps" for "those with hydrocephalus, cross-eyed, deformed half-Jews and a whole series of racially inferior types".

In November, 1938 the anti-Jewish pogrom on and after "the night of broken glass" was reported countrywide in papers as heroic. The propaganda minister, Joseph Goebbels, announced that the "final answer" to the Jewish problem would be by way of government de cree, according to Volkische Beobachter

In late 1939, the year war started, newspapers acting on government orders announced a post-8pm curfew on all Jews in case they "molest Aryan women". That November the first summary executions of "anti-socials" by police without trial were reported. Papers were told to report these clearly and forcefully. In March, 1941 the Hamburger Fremdenblatt reported the first mass auctions of posses sions of detained or killed Jews. Hamburg became the wartime clearing house and Gellately says at least 100,000 citizens bought at the auctions.

After this the focus switched. Most press reports about Jews were about those outside Germany. This was because the official but unpublicised final solution was being implemented. But enthusiastic denunciations by ordinary citizens of Jewish and other "internal enemies" continued to be copiously reported. Backing Hitler discusses 670 cases. By the end of the war Hitler was still getting 1,000 private letters a week, many of them denunciations.


Book by Michigan author says Germans knew of the Holocaust

Detroit Free Press | June 5, 2000

BY L. L. BRASIER | FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

Historians have long debated how much ordinary German citizens knew about or participated in the torture and murder of Jews during World War II.

A Michigan professor says he has proof that most Germans knew about the killings, some helped the Nazis, and few did little to stop the atrocities.

In his new, controversial book, "Nazi Terror, The Gestapo, Jews and
Ordinary Germans," Eric Johnson, a professor of history at Central MichiganUniversity, relies on hundreds of interviews and thousands of surveys conducted with Germans who lived under the Third Reich.

In his 10 years of research, he found Gestapo files detailing citizen
participation in the persecutions. He also found transcripts of BBC radio
reports that detailed the slaughter. His work left him shaken and convinced that had it not been for the complacency -- and at times, outright support-- of Germans, Hitler would not have been able to exterminate 6 million European Jews.

"It took a whole society to murder the Jews: Train operators and cleaning women and bankers and lawyers and doctors all played a role in sending the Jews off to their deaths," he said Sunday. "It was a partnership."

The book, "a benchmark work," according to Publishers Weekly, has caused a stir. For one, it challenges some widely held theories that the Nazis, operating secretly and at remote concentration camps, were able to murder millions without alerting citizens.

That view has long rankled those who were there, particularly the Jewish
survivors.

"Of course the German people knew, they all knew," said Ruth Lehman, 79, an Oak Park Auschwitz survivor who belongs to the Michigan Holocaust Survivors Organization. "It's important for the truth to come out now because there aren't that many of us left," she said.

Johnson lived in Germany for five years while researching the book and
talked with dozens of Germans who admitted knowledge of the killings and
torture. The people were sometimes remarkably candid.

They admitted they supported Hitler and were often anti-Semitic. They
viewed the Gestapo, Hitler's brutal police force, as an ally and protector,
and Jews as "criminals." And they said they knew what was happening to the Jewish people once they were loaded on trains bound for concentration camps.

One woman, who lived in Cologne, told of her anatomy professor bragging about medical experiments he had been conducting on Jewish brains.

Another man told how his father, a physician near Auschwitz, took him aside and told him how thousands of Jewish people were being gassed. He was warned not to discuss it outside the family.

Sometimes, Johnson came face to face with Nazis. In his last interview
before he returned to the United States, he sat with an 88-year-old Germanman in a shabby apartment in Cologne. The man, a former member of the SS auxiliary, had been a Dachau concentration camp guard and a soldier.

The German described an afternoon where he and the five other men in his detachment killed 300 Jewish women and children, administering "mercy shots" to the backs of their skulls as they stood in a ditch.

The German people made such atrocities possible, Johnson argues, because of their "deeply flawed culture" at the time.

"They had an excessive acceptance of the law, whatever the law might be," he said. "In other words, if it was law to kill Jews, than that was a good thing. It is slavish obedience to law, something you still see in Germany today."

[2Sheds_Jackson]

I haven't seen the series but I’m a bit skeptical as to who knew what.

What happened before world war two was discrimination, apartheid, mob violence etc. and finally ethnic cleansing. If i'm not mistaken nearly all jews had left Germany by time the war started. And it had been seen elsewhere at the time (black people in US for instance, though not US government policy of course) and unfortunately it has been seen again after ww2.

You have to remember the huge scale of this operation. There were massive camps built, with specialized buildings, equipment supplies etc. The recovered goods from these camps such as clothes, shoes, jewelry, metals, glasses, hair etc were also sold off.

All this infrastructure required planning and support. Bids for this stuff went out as a matter of policy - i.e. the German gov't needs to build "x" number of camps, with "x" number of buildings with "x" number of showers that actually dispense gas, "x" number of large self-sustaining ovens that keep burning using only the bodies of the burned for fuel (i.e. not coal fired), trucks, trains, carts, poison gas canisters, etc. - how much of this can your company do, what will it cost, how long to build?

All this planning etc was done well in advance of the wider war. This was not something that popped up in the last month.

At many of the camps, they became very efficient. They put the "showers" near the cremation ovens. In fact, there were metal rails, like train tracks that led from the showers to the ovens. The corpses were piled onto tracked carts, and pushed over to the disposal area. The blueprints, drawn up by civilian architects clearly laid all this out. How could there be any question as to what this was for?

Do you think that the hundreds of firms that received these requests didn't know what they were for? What about the munitions and other firms that used the slave labor? What about the firms that bought huge piles of hair, glasses that were no longer needed etc? These companies had thousands of people who directly participated in the planning and execution of this plan. In addition, as has been said, this was national policy, and clearly explained in print and in film.

As an aside - the cremation ovens didn't work properly at first. They had been designed by engineers to keep burning using the body fat of the humans they digested. Since the victims were so malnourished, there wasn't much fat to burn, so they had to be redesigned to work properly. They needed to work that way because coal, oil, and wood were projected to be in short supply.

Obviously the final solution was a well known operation, with tens of thousands of people either participating by working at or with the camps, or participating in the planning and support.

Again, I'm not condemning present day Germany or the German people. It's just a horrifying lesson in what can happen when people - any people are seduced by power.

[Kitsune]

I have read Eric Johnsons book...and also it is somehow well researched and well presented it also seems to be written with evil intend.
This became clear to me as I read "I shall bear witness" written by Victor Klemperer, a jew. In it he describes how he survivied the times because of the silent help of countless Germans who helped him.

This is the trick: While every case Johnson describes may be true, he seems to want to create a certain impression. He claims that most Germans knew it or something...and then states numerous cases which are proving it...all of them true.
But if he wanted to prove that Germans are a good and kind people...he coudl have written a book decribing cases of compassion and mercy...one after the other...and all of them true, too.

This makes his book essentially propaganda...especially dangerous, intelectual propaganda, because it is not obvius but cleverly disguised as a scholary work.

The Nazis made "documentary movies" showing the conditions of concentration camps: neat houses, well treated and fed prisoners and stuff. The Jews who were deported were said to be resettled...and there is another Nazi "documentary" of such a village of re-settled jews (a fake) showing a nice village with quite happy people...
Why bother to create such propaganda stunts if everyone knew anyway? Best proof: why did nearly every jew meekly accept his fate? In many cases they got a letter: be at this-and such trainstation. You will be resettlet. Destination: Auschwitz. If they KNEW what would happen (a German jew read the same newspapers as everyone else) that they would be gassed...why did nearly everyone go without resistance? Not that they believed that **** with the happy village...even most Germans knew that the Nazi leadership produced propaganda stuff without end...there were lots of Berliner jokes depicting Göbbels as liar and bigmouth ( One: "1 Göbbels is the scientific unit for the energy you need to switch of a million radio receivers...", that shows what many Germans thought...) but I think they thought they still had a chance, perhaps a labor camp or something.
And the Germans weren't exactly having a good time either...if you have already lost your father and your brother it numbs you for the pain of others...Add to this the Nazi propaganda, depicting Jews as rats or parasits
which would slowly destroy the "body of a people" or the accusation that those international Jews were responsible for the American entry into the war, which were bombing the cities all the time...sure lies and propaganda. But if you throw a lot of dirt at someone, some stains of it will stay on him.
And lets not forget: At first the Nazis supported the emigration of jews...especially to palestine. Reinhard Heydrich said once: "As nationalsocialist I am zionist as well of course". So while everyone knew about oppression, how many knew about the attempted total anihilation? Some hundreds of thousands, perhaps a million knew or had reason to suspect something. But certainly not everyone.
But its a damn dufficult topic, thats for sure.

[duck]

Almost every German soldier on the Eastern Front had taken part in massacres in some way, either actively or as spectators. Higher Wehrmacht officers knew about the gas chambers already in 1943. But after the war it was simpler to begin a new life by actively forgetting about all this and just blaming everything on "the Nazis". And who would want to tell their children or grandchildren wartime stories of gassed Jews or machine-gunned Russian women and children?

[Kitsune]

@duck:
You seem to know a lot about this. Sources?

Please keep in mind, duck, that according to some...sources..."almost every soldier" of the American forces in Vietnam took part in massacres , either actively or as spectator, as well. And the US generals knew of the killing and burning of 1-2 million civilians in Vietnam and Cambodia. SEAL teams murdered amd tortured countless innocents...all done by Americans, for profit or because Americans enjoy evil for itself. If someone told you otherwise he is just lying or hiding the truth. Who would want to tell his children and grandchildren of those massacres, rapings and babykillings. It was much easier to blame it all on the CIA.

Do you believe that as well?

[duck]

You are using a natural defensive mechanism, but your grandparents generation (NOT meaning your grandparents) is responsible for countless massacres and the Holocaust. It cannot be compared to Vietnam, SEAL teams have very little in common with the Einsatzgruppen and Totenkopfverbaende. Carpet bombing is not the same as burning families alive in barns. And remember the anti-war movement in the US and Europe. For the most part they were free to voice their mind, now compare that to the Scholl sisters or count Stauffenberg.

Quote from Alan Clark's "Barbarossa": p.193

"Those who went to the East passed already into a different world, separated by a gulf almost as wide as that which had existed in the Great War between the permissionaries of Paris and the hills of Verdun. Once they had traversed the frontier of the occupied territories they were in a belt of country, up to five hundred miles across, where the septic violence of Nazism festered openly-no longer concealed beneath the trim roofs and Gemuetlichkeit of suburban Germany. Mass murder, deportations, deliberate starvation of prisoner cages, the burning alive of school children, "target practice" on civilian hospitals-atrocities were so commonplace that no man coming fresh to the scene could stay sane without acquiring a protective veneer of brutalisation.

One young officer, lately arrived in the East received an order to shoot 350 civilians, allgedly partisans but including women and children, who had been herded together in a big barn. He hesitated at first, but was then warned that the penalty for disobedience is death. He begged for ten minutes time to think it over, and finally carried out the order with machine-gun fire. He was so shaken by this episode that after being wounded he was determined never to go back to the Eastern front."