"Old" Europe ... what are You doing?

[fdt]

A year ago and bit earlier, many were foreseeing the EU internal collapse because of the new members. The newcomers were supposed to trash the decision making process because of their immaturity, conflict attitude and lack of the "European Spirit or Sense".

Now, a year later, half of this propecy seems to realize before our eyes, EU spirit is in coma and "Dream Europe" is falling apart.

Britons with their relatively strong economy, do not want to resign of their famous rebate. Why? Because EU spends too much. They say "We won't step back on this issue".

France, after the failed constitution vote, doesn't want to be the only "black shhep" in the hurd... so it blames Britons for their egoistic attitude. As asked about British proposal to reduce farming subsidies, France says "We won't step back on this issue".

Germany, Netherlands, Sweden and other "net payers" say reduce the EU budget. There are more needs because of enlargement? So what? We pay too much... (To be fair Germans say that they will resign of this demand if others will accept the present funding level).

Spain, Italy so far the largest beneficiaries of the "structural aid" say: We want the aid at the so far level and "we won't step back on this issue".

Furthermore Italy, encouraged by previous France and gemany example for last 3 years have been cheating on the EURO rules... now expecting to go out with this unpunished (Berlusconi says: we backed France and Germany 3 years ago, now we expect to get same favour from them in return..." and of course.... "We won't step back on this issue".

Money money money. Me myself and I. Throughout the EU (except for UK, IRL) the economical systems shake under the pressure of the new globalized economy and their own fat social security programmes. Politicians are under pressure. Who is the most convenient scapegoat? No... not the politicians. It's (depending on the nature of internal problems) EU Commission, European Central Bank, Turkey or Polish plumber. Nations are told by their politicians that all that stuff is to blame... because it's the easy... too easy way to cover their incompetence.

Italian economy collapses without the possibility to devaluate Lira, then it's Euro to blame. 6 months ago 60% Italians were happy about Euro, now as the Italian budget cheating has been revealed politicians have convinced people that it's all but their blame. Euro is the bad guy.... so today 75% of Italians wants their Lira to return... 6 months and certain internal problems and we have 30% more eurosceptics... Voila!

All Europe is deadly scared the prospect of Turkey entering EU. 20+ more years ago, as Turkey was promised future membership, nobody complained.... now it's "Save the Vienna, Sultan is coming...!" Who is scared most? ... French, Germans and Austrians (the two latest I can understand... but France?).

I could write much longer litany of my personal amazements... but It's not my point. Let's return to the initial thesis... The second half of the "prophecy" It was the new members who were to trash the EU... what are they doing? Hmmm they do their daily routine of STFU and vote for the EU Constitution... Weren't the newcomers supposed to do the destructive job that old members are doing now? It was "old" Europe who was to teach us the values of unity. Weren't they supposed to uphold the EU rules instead of trashing them? Weren't they supposed to show us how to be a "good European" and what "European values and rules" mean?

Is it just me or someone else feels too, that we in Europe need a big change of politicians, before they'll ruin all that founders of EU have tried to build?

[weissent]

Rest assured, Totgesagte leben länger. Go use a translation prog for this.

[fdt]

Rest assured, Totgesagte leben länger. Go use a translation prog for this.Don't need to. I am European... :D

[weissent]

Rest assured, Totgesagte leben länger. Go use a translation prog for this.Don't need to. I am European... :D
:D
As I mentioned in another thread: it took 3-400 years to form Switzerland as a nation. It may take as long to get Europe under a single constitution.
Forming some kind of 'loose' nation with all the European peoples is a thing that'll take time. And I'm thinking centuries here. But I'm sure it is going to happen.

[roland]

good post fdt as often.

Here is an article I think fits well with this thread:

http://www.iht.com/images/nav/logoBW.gif



Politicus: A lethal ridiculousness in the European Union
John Vinocur
TUESDAY, JUNE 14, 2005

PARIS There is a French maxim saying nothing kills as surely as ridiculousness. It probably goes back to the royal court at Versailles where the wrong ruffle, or faulty flounce, or stocking hue (not peach, you fool, but apricot! ) first meant hilarity, then dead men walking.

Much the same rule seems to pertain to European politics in 2005. Ridiculousness continues to look lethal.

I'm thinking of a separation from reality these days that overwhelms the acceptably contradictory and becomes grotesque - the equivalent of generals ordering their vanquished armies to defend destroyed fortifications to the death.

This is not insisting that politics should survive without contradictions and maneuvering, which, like digressions, are often the best part of the story.

But after the rejection of the European Union's constitution in referendums in France and the Netherlands, and Gerhard Schröder's mortifying defeat in a regional election in Germany's biggest state, there is a degree of political slippage, a mortal skid, really, whirling Schröder and Jacques Chirac at the heart of Europe in the direction of the absurd.

The two men met twice in six days, and after both acknowledged that Europe was in crisis, they came up with the command-like conclusion that the EU's summit meeting in Brussels on Thursday should be about its budget for the year after next.

That re-creates the exact circumstances that the maelstrom of no-votes say are no longer tolerable: a Europe focusing on its recondite, institutional intricacies, while hiding from existential debate, in this case, about why most of the EU doesn't grow economically, and where the European project lost its soul.

This French-German-supported diversion might successfully offload attention for the moment from Chirac and Schröder's leadership to Tony Blair's supposed budgetary intransigence. But it concretizes a kind of ridiculousness - offering, instead of a ruthless post-mortem discussion, the deathly internal EU tactics that Europeans have now shown they despise and that the president and chancellor just may not outlive.

In any event, neither man will die from an overload of coherence.
(...)
more:
http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/2005/06/13/news/politicus.php


And one quote I like:


Elements of Chirac's Gaullist party openly mock his sworn "social model" bottom line. Patrick Devedjian, a right-hand man to Nicolas Sarkozy, the party's president, said over the weekend: "The French social model isn't a model, because no one wants to emulate it. It's not social, because it's caused record unemployment."

[Stormz_STA]

Wow!!!! Fdt, very nice post.

May i ask what do you do for a living?

Are you a lawyer by any chnce? ;)

[fdt]

Are you a lawyer by any chnce? ;)Yes, I am.

[Knutsen]

fdt, great post. I completely agree. Years ago politicians used to try to "sell" the idea of the huge european solidarity in which any country could ask for help from another member since we are all europeans.
Now with the latest referenda about the constitution and the latest economical problems in many countries people are realizing that this solidarity never existed (and won't exist in the near future).
Today, a rich guy from Rheinland prefers his money to go to a poor guy in say.. Turingien rather than a poor guy in Extremadura (spain). Why? Because they're both germans, and in the end politicians will be elected in their countries. Do you think any politician in Europe is going to take measures for the benefit of Europe if it can damage him in his country?
I hope that changes in the future, but i'm not very optimistic about it

[BigBaribal]

"Old Europe" just did it right:



by Patrick J. Buchanan
June 13, 2005

With their raucous “No!” votes on the new constitution, France and Holland have voted against the New Europe.

Seizing on the French-Dutch rejection, the British Labor Party has postponed a
referendum, thus saving Tony Blair. For the near certainty of British rejection would have forced Blair’s resignation. Now, Poland and other nations are putting off their referendums.

The new constitution is dead. New Europe has been rejected by the people in whose name it is being advanced. Repudiated, as well, were the political elites who campaigned for that constitution.
But though Brussels is unloved and Jacques Chirac has lost France, this was no vote of affection for or confidence in Bush’s America.

This was a nationalist-populist protest demanding that France be France and
Holland be Holland, and to blazes with the world. It was a vote against the free-trade globalism of George Bush and the Reagan-Thatcher economic model the European Left decries as “savage capitalism.”

It was a victory of the Old Right that would restore the sovereignty of France
and retain the national independence and unique and separate identity of the
French people and culture. It was a vote against both Islamic immigration and Turkey’s membership in the European Union.

Turkey’s quest to enter Europe appears dead, as the likely leaders of France and
Germany, a year from now – Nicolas Sarkozy and Angela Merkel – oppose its
application. Where Turkey – a nation of 70 million, estranged from its old NATO
ally, America, and shut out of Europe – goes from here is a great question.
Tehran, Moscow and Beijing would seem to be the probable next stops.

This was also a victory for French socialists and communists who are demanding
retention of the 35-hour work week and the cradle-to-grave security they
believe to be the great achievement of the Left.

But this Right-Left backlash against globalization and integration of Europe
cannot save Europe. For the de-Christianized European Union does not contain a
single nation where the birth rate is sufficient to replace the population.
Europe has begun to die. In 20 nations, the native-born population has begun to
shrink. The cohort of workers entering the labor force is not large enough to
maintain the welfare benefits, pensions and health care for retirees and
elderly.

The French and Dutch voted for a contradiction – to preserve all the social
welfare benefits they have, but to oppose the free-market reforms and
immigration that alone can ensure economic growth and a steady resupply of new
workers and taxpayers to preserve them. The crisis of Europe – inexorable
economic decline and the early death of the indigenous European peoples – is
unresolved by the massive protest vote of Left and Right. This was a cry in the
wilderness.

Following the French-Dutch vote, it is not only the eastern expansion of the
European Union that has been cast into doubt, but the survival of the European
Union itself.

With growth in the major nations of Western Europe trailing that of the United
States, France, Germany and Italy have repeatedly breached the fiscal
guidelines set down by the European Monetary Union. These call for budget
deficits of no more than 3 percent of GDP for nations that adopt the euro.
France and Germany, the privileged pair, have been given a pass. But Italy is
now being called to book, as its national debt now exceeds its Gross Domestic
Product.

Cabinet ministers from Italy’s Northern Alliance, fed up with the discipline
imposed by the European Central Bank and a currency that has appreciated
dramatically against the dollar, are calling for abandonment of the euro and
restoration of the Italian lira.

This could trigger a financial crisis like the Asian crisis of 1997, when
Thailand, Indonesia, the Philippines and South Korea devalued and went into de
facto default on their foreign debts.

Understandably, the political leadership of any nation in a prolonged slump will
wish to retain control of monetary as well as fiscal policy. Some 58 percent of
all Germans are said to seek a return to the deutschmark. Unless Europe finds a
solution to its economic stagnation – and France and Holland rejected the
free-market, free-trade solution – the euro could be the next to go, and the
European Union could follow it to the graveyard.

The hiding that French and Dutch voters have given Europe’s elites, who aspired
to superpower status and used America as their foil, is delightful to observe.
But Bush Republicans and neocons reveling in the humiliation of Schroeder and
Chirac should take note.

In the rout and humiliation of a European establishment that is committed to
open borders and free-trade globalism by a Left-Right coalition, they may be
staring at their own future. For that same Left-Right coalition is forming in
the United States – against free-trade globalism, CAFTA, open-borders, amnesty
for illegal aliens, Social Security reform and American empire.

Populism and nationalism have declared war on globalism.

[fdt]

@Big Baribal.

Pat Buchanan wrote:


It was a victory of the Old Right that would restore the sovereignty of France and retain the national independence and unique and separate identity of the French people and culture. It was a vote against both Islamic immigration and Turkey’s membership in the European Union.

Martin Wicks wrote:

http://www.movementsforsocialism.com/french_referendum.htm


This is a big victory for the working class in Europe. There was a distinct left wing labour movement campaign in which opposition to neo-liberalism was the dominant theme. The dynamic of the campaign was one of building a necessary unity across the left. For the first time, I think, the LCR's Presidential candidate Besancenot, spoke at a rally involving the CP. (See speech below).

It will be very difficult for the EU apparatus to pose another vote in France, especially given the decisive nature of the majority.

The victory presents an opportunity for the left to challenge the neo-liberal agenda which was to be incorporated into the constitution. However, this requires a struggle within the unions throughout Europe, for a break with the 'social partnership' agenda and liberalisation. Most European unions have miserably failed to challenge liberalisation. For instance, the leaders of the Communications Workers Union have accepted liberalisation of Postal Services (a progressive opening up of services, to competition from the private sector) as inevitable. The mainstream unions have followed a similar line. Only the SUD-PTT in France, outside the main federations, has tried to build a European network to oppose liberalisation.

The French victory shows that there is a widespread understanding in France (not restricted to there, of course), especially amongst younger people, that 'globalisation' and 'liberalisation' are part of a process to turn everything into a commodity. And millions of people oppose such a process

Pierre Laurent wrote:

http://www.humaniteinenglish.com/news/output/editorial_1117450548.shtml


It has been done. The project of a European Constitution, this Treaty of Neoliberal Good Conduct, has been rejected. Our country does not want it. The way is now open to reconstruct, with the other peoples of Europe, a new Constitution. For the meaning of this vote is clear, even if we will have to anticipate a no-holds-barred battle for interpreting what this NO means.
The NO victory is first of all the fruit of a remarkable popular mobilisation, and a political renewal of the Left. It is a call for building, as soon as possible, a Social Europe, a Europe based on Solidarity, progress for all: a Europe that rejects the Law of the Jungle, that pits workers against each other, at the lowest salaries, working conditions and social benefits available in the European Union. The result says NO to “social dumping” – employers moving to where EU labour-costs are lowest – that benefits only those with the most Capital.
This NO has nothing to do with the hate, the xenophobia, the reactionary motives that some supporters of the YES kept trying to assimilate to NO voters; they understand nothing about what is happening in this country.


Mario Borghezio wrote:

http://www.europarl.eu.int/inddem/whatsnew/it_300505.htm


Lega Nord congratulates France and its colleagues of MPF for the crushing victory of the no.

This is the victory of democracy. This is the victory of populist forces, like Lega Nord in Italy, who always denounced Brussels' mismanagement and defence of interests that have nothing to do with the people.

This referendum result, which is the victory of the real country against the financial powers, gives back Europe to the people.

Mario Borghezio
Member of IND/DEM Group


:roll: :roll: :roll:

I don't know what French referendum Mr Buchanan means... the one that took place at 29th of May 2005 or the one from his dreams. Socialists, commies and Italian populists have declared victory ... OK... but Mr Buchanan joining this party seems to me a bit strange.... and reminds me this "modernized" version of old fairytale:


The Story of the Six Blind Men

Once upon a time, in a faraway land, there lived six blind men. Each of them was very wise. Each of them had gone to school and read lots of books in braille.

They knew so much about so many things that people would often come from miles around to get their advice. They were happy to share whatever they knew with the people who asked them thoughtful questions.

One day these six wise blind men went for a walk in the zoo. That day the zoo-keeper was worrying about all of her many troubles.

The night before she had had an argument with her husband, and her children had been misbehaving all day long. She had so much on her mind that she forgot to lock the gate of the elephant cage as she was leaving it.

Now, elephants are naturally very curious animals. They quickly tried to push the gate to the cage to see if it might open. To their great surprise, the gate swung freely on its hinge. Two of the more daring elephants walked over to the gate. They looked left and right, and then quietly tip-toed out of the cage.

Just at that moment the six blind men walked by. One of them heard a twig snap, and went over to see what it was that was walking by.

"Hi there !" said the first blind man to the first elephant. "Could you please tell us the way to the zoo restaurant ?" The elephant couldn't think of anything intelligent to say, so he sort of shifted his weight from left to right to left to right.

The first blind man walked over to see if this big silent person needed any help. Then, with a big bump, he walked right into the side of the elephant. He put out his arms to either side, but all he could feel was the big body of the elephant.

"Boy," said the first blind man. "I think I must have walked into a wall. "The second blind man was becoming more and more curious about what was happening. He walked over to the front of the elephant and grabbed hold of the animal's trunk.

He quickly let go and shouted, "This isn't a wall. This is a snake! We should step back in case it's poisonous." The third man quickly decided to find out what was going on, and to tell his friends what they had walked into.

He walked over to the back of the elephant and touched the animal's tail. "This is no wall, and this is no snake. You are both wrong once again. I know for sure that this is a rope."

The fourth man sighed as he knew how stubborn his friends could be. The fourth blind man decided that someone should really get to the bottom of this thing. So he crouched down on all fours and felt around the elephant's legs. (Luckily for the fourth man, this elephant was very tame and wouldn't think of stepping on a human being.)

"My dear friends," explained the fourth man. "This is no wall and this is no snake. This is no rope either. What we have here, gentlemen, is four tree trunks. That's it. Case closed."

The fifth blind man was not so quick to jump to conclusions. He walked up to the front of the elephant and felt the animal's two long tusks. "It seems to me that this object is made up of two swords," said the fifth man. "What I am holding is long and curved and sharp at the end. I am not sure what this could be, but maybe our sixth friend could help us."

The sixth blind man scratched his head and thought and thought. He was the one who really was the wisest of all of them. He was the one who really knew what he knew, and knew what he didn't know.

Just then the worried zoo-keeper walked by. "Hi there ! How are you enjoying the zoo today ?" she asked them all. "The zoo is very nice," replied the sixth blind man. "Perhaps you could help us figure out the answer to a question that's been puzzling us."

"Sure thing," said the zoo-keeper, as she firmly grabbed the elephant's collar.

"My friends and I can't seem to figure out what this thing in front of us is. One of us thinks it's a wall; one thinks it's a snake; one thinks it's a rope, and one thinks it's four tree trunks. How can one thing seem so different to five different people?" "Well," said the zoo-keeper. "You are all right. This elephant seems like something different to each one of you. And the only way to know what this thing really is, is to do exactly what you have done. Only by sharing what each of you knows can you possibly reach a true understanding."

The six wise men had to agree with the wisdom of the zoo-keeper. The first five of them had been too quick to form an opinion without listening to what the others had to say.

So they all went off to the zoo restaurant and had a really hearty lunch.

[Stormz_STA]

Are you a lawyer by any chnce? ;)Yes, I am.


It takes one to know one ;)

[Clearday-TRForce]

fdt,

you are absolutely true what you mention here. So the view s clear for global area...

1-USA
2-CHINA
3-JAPAN
4-...
;)



All Europe is deadly scared the prospect of Turkey entering EU. 20+ more years ago, as Turkey was promised future membership, nobody complained.... now it's "Save the Vienna, Sultan is coming...!" Who is scared most? ... French, Germans and Austrians (the two latest I can understand... but France?).

:lol:

[BigBaribal]

I would bet on China.

[BigBaribal]

@Big Baribal.

Pat Buchanan wrote:


It was a victory of the Old Right that would restore the sovereignty of France and retain the national independence and unique and separate identity of the French people and culture. It was a vote against both Islamic immigration and Turkey’s membership in the European Union.

Martin Wicks wrote:

http://www.movementsforsocialism.com/french_referendum.htm


This is a big victory for the working class in Europe. There was a distinct left wing labour movement campaign in which opposition to neo-liberalism was the dominant theme. The dynamic of the campaign was one of building a necessary unity across the left. For the first time, I think, the LCR's Presidential candidate Besancenot, spoke at a rally involving the CP. (See speech below).

It will be very difficult for the EU apparatus to pose another vote in France, especially given the decisive nature of the majority.

The victory presents an opportunity for the left to challenge the neo-liberal agenda which was to be incorporated into the constitution. However, this requires a struggle within the unions throughout Europe, for a break with the 'social partnership' agenda and liberalisation. Most European unions have miserably failed to challenge liberalisation. For instance, the leaders of the Communications Workers Union have accepted liberalisation of Postal Services (a progressive opening up of services, to competition from the private sector) as inevitable. The mainstream unions have followed a similar line. Only the SUD-PTT in France, outside the main federations, has tried to build a European network to oppose liberalisation.

The French victory shows that there is a widespread understanding in France (not restricted to there, of course), especially amongst younger people, that 'globalisation' and 'liberalisation' are part of a process to turn everything into a commodity. And millions of people oppose such a process

Pierre Laurent wrote:

http://www.humaniteinenglish.com/news/output/editorial_1117450548.shtml


It has been done. The project of a European Constitution, this Treaty of Neoliberal Good Conduct, has been rejected. Our country does not want it. The way is now open to reconstruct, with the other peoples of Europe, a new Constitution. For the meaning of this vote is clear, even if we will have to anticipate a no-holds-barred battle for interpreting what this NO means.
The NO victory is first of all the fruit of a remarkable popular mobilisation, and a political renewal of the Left. It is a call for building, as soon as possible, a Social Europe, a Europe based on Solidarity, progress for all: a Europe that rejects the Law of the Jungle, that pits workers against each other, at the lowest salaries, working conditions and social benefits available in the European Union. The result says NO to “social dumping” – employers moving to where EU labour-costs are lowest – that benefits only those with the most Capital.
This NO has nothing to do with the hate, the xenophobia, the reactionary motives that some supporters of the YES kept trying to assimilate to NO voters; they understand nothing about what is happening in this country.


Mario Borghezio wrote:

http://www.europarl.eu.int/inddem/whatsnew/it_300505.htm


Lega Nord congratulates France and its colleagues of MPF for the crushing victory of the no.

This is the victory of democracy. This is the victory of populist forces, like Lega Nord in Italy, who always denounced Brussels' mismanagement and defence of interests that have nothing to do with the people.

This referendum result, which is the victory of the real country against the financial powers, gives back Europe to the people.

Mario Borghezio
Member of IND/DEM Group


:roll: :roll: :roll:

I don't know what French referendum Mr Buchanan means... the one that took place at 29th of May 2005 or the one from his dreams. Socialists, commies and Italian populists have declared victory ... OK... but Mr Buchanan joining this party seems to me a bit strange.... and reminds me this "modernized" version of old fairytale:


The Story of the Six Blind Men

Once upon a time, in a faraway land, there lived six blind men. Each of them was very wise. Each of them had gone to school and read lots of books in braille.

They knew so much about so many things that people would often come from miles around to get their advice. They were happy to share whatever they knew with the people who asked them thoughtful questions.

One day these six wise blind men went for a walk in the zoo. That day the zoo-keeper was worrying about all of her many troubles.

The night before she had had an argument with her husband, and her children had been misbehaving all day long. She had so much on her mind that she forgot to lock the gate of the elephant cage as she was leaving it.

Now, elephants are naturally very curious animals. They quickly tried to push the gate to the cage to see if it might open. To their great surprise, the gate swung freely on its hinge. Two of the more daring elephants walked over to the gate. They looked left and right, and then quietly tip-toed out of the cage.

Just at that moment the six blind men walked by. One of them heard a twig snap, and went over to see what it was that was walking by.

"Hi there !" said the first blind man to the first elephant. "Could you please tell us the way to the zoo restaurant ?" The elephant couldn't think of anything intelligent to say, so he sort of shifted his weight from left to right to left to right.

The first blind man walked over to see if this big silent person needed any help. Then, with a big bump, he walked right into the side of the elephant. He put out his arms to either side, but all he could feel was the big body of the elephant.

"Boy," said the first blind man. "I think I must have walked into a wall. "The second blind man was becoming more and more curious about what was happening. He walked over to the front of the elephant and grabbed hold of the animal's trunk.

He quickly let go and shouted, "This isn't a wall. This is a snake! We should step back in case it's poisonous." The third man quickly decided to find out what was going on, and to tell his friends what they had walked into.

He walked over to the back of the elephant and touched the animal's tail. "This is no wall, and this is no snake. You are both wrong once again. I know for sure that this is a rope."

The fourth man sighed as he knew how stubborn his friends could be. The fourth blind man decided that someone should really get to the bottom of this thing. So he crouched down on all fours and felt around the elephant's legs. (Luckily for the fourth man, this elephant was very tame and wouldn't think of stepping on a human being.)

"My dear friends," explained the fourth man. "This is no wall and this is no snake. This is no rope either. What we have here, gentlemen, is four tree trunks. That's it. Case closed."

The fifth blind man was not so quick to jump to conclusions. He walked up to the front of the elephant and felt the animal's two long tusks. "It seems to me that this object is made up of two swords," said the fifth man. "What I am holding is long and curved and sharp at the end. I am not sure what this could be, but maybe our sixth friend could help us."

The sixth blind man scratched his head and thought and thought. He was the one who really was the wisest of all of them. He was the one who really knew what he knew, and knew what he didn't know.

Just then the worried zoo-keeper walked by. "Hi there ! How are you enjoying the zoo today ?" she asked them all. "The zoo is very nice," replied the sixth blind man. "Perhaps you could help us figure out the answer to a question that's been puzzling us."

"Sure thing," said the zoo-keeper, as she firmly grabbed the elephant's collar.

"My friends and I can't seem to figure out what this thing in front of us is. One of us thinks it's a wall; one thinks it's a snake; one thinks it's a rope, and one thinks it's four tree trunks. How can one thing seem so different to five different people?" "Well," said the zoo-keeper. "You are all right. This elephant seems like something different to each one of you. And the only way to know what this thing really is, is to do exactly what you have done. Only by sharing what each of you knows can you possibly reach a true understanding."

The six wise men had to agree with the wisdom of the zoo-keeper. The first five of them had been too quick to form an opinion without listening to what the others had to say.

So they all went off to the zoo restaurant and had a really hearty lunch.




The classic left-right separation is becoming more and more obsolete.

It's either now those who are for a globalist world and those who are against such a world. And you can be against such a world at the right or at the left or for a global world also at the right or at the left.

[Wodan]

1-USA
2-CHINA
3-JAPAN
4-...

its more like

1-USA
2-Eurozone
3-Japan


or


1 USA
2 Japan
3 Germany
4 UK
5 France
6 Italy
7 PR China
8 Canda
9 Spain
10 Mexico
11 India
12 Southkorea
13 Nederlands
14 Australia
15 Brasilia
16 Russia
17 Switzerland
18 Belgium
19 Sweden
20 Taiwan
21 Austria

(if you dont count Eurozone as one nation)


I dont know where you get your China on place 2 from...

[Clearday-TRForce]

CHINE - UK - GERMANY - FRANCE...



of course China is the first...

China;

population: 1,306,313,812 (July 2005 est.)





1 World $ 55,500,000,000,000 2004 est.
2 United States $ 11,750,000,000,000 2004 est.
3 European Union $ 11,650,000,000,000 2004 est.
4 China $ 7,262,000,000,000 2004 est.
5 Japan $ 3,745,000,000,000 2004 est.
6 India $ 3,319,000,000,000 2004 est.
7 Germany $ 2,362,000,000,000 2004 est.
8 United Kingdom $ 1,782,000,000,000 2004 est.
9 France $ 1,737,000,000,000 2004 est.
10 Italy $ 1,609,000,000,000 2004 est.
11 Brazil $ 1,492,000,000,000 2004 est.
12 Russia $ 1,408,000,000,000 2004 est.
13 Canada $ 1,023,000,000,000 2004 est.
14 Mexico $ 1,006,000,000,000 2004 est.
15 Spain $ 937,600,000,000 2004 est.
16 Korea, South $ 925,100,000,000 2004 est.
17 Indonesia $ 827,400,000,000 2004 est.
18 Australia $ 611,700,000,000 2004 est.
19 Taiwan $ 576,200,000,000 2004 est.
20 Thailand $ 524,800,000,000 2004 est.
21 Iran $ 516,700,000,000 2004 est.
22 Turkey $ 508,700,000,000 2004 est


the future is in the ASIA...

[kenshiroIT]

Euro is the bad guy.... so today 75% of Italians wants their Lira to return... 6 months and certain internal problems and we have 30% more eurosceptics... Voila!



:cantbeli: this is the must stupidest think I ever read! Nobody in Italy wants the lira back (who said that BS?...of course not a Italian) the only one who mentioned are the Eurosceptical parti Lega Nord.
And even between them there are many disagreement about this proposal.
So please keep it real and dont post fake news (75% roftl!!!)

[promillo]

The EU turned from a dream of an unified Europe to a nightmare of buerocracy and nanny-statehood.

The unified Europe will still be a dream and a goal for us...but the EU of today MUST fail.

Its not build upon the will of free people but on the order of buerocrats and politruks.

Thats, why the "constitution" was rejected.

[Weasel]

Its not build upon the will of free people but on the order of buerocrats and politruks.

...and islamofascists, of course. rofl

[perdurabo]

The EU turned from a dream of an unified Europe to a nightmare of buerocracy and nanny-statehood.

The unified Europe will still be a dream and a goal for us...but the EU of today MUST fail.

Its not build upon the will of free people but on the order of buerocrats and politruks.

Thats, why the "constitution" was rejected.
agreed if we Europeans wan't closer union it must be done from bottom not top.
FDT good post 100% agreed

[Werewolf01]

Rest assured, Totgesagte leben länger. Go use a translation prog for this.

;) Don't need it translated, and I am NOT a European.