Che!

[Doom]

its che's b day today.

http://www.americas-fr.com/histoire/ernesto-che-guevara-2.jpg

happy b day che!

"hasta la victoria, siempre"

[vote for Pedro]

Happy Birthday, viva la revelucion!

[Doom]

http://www.fotoajans.com/history/che_guevara/che_guevara_001.jpg

If he was commie, socialist or whatever he believed....he was a dedicated man


i suggest "guerilla warfare" by him. out of date, but the basics of it remain.

[Doom]

http://catedras.fsoc.uba.ar/udishal/pages_che/106.jpg

[Doom]

http://catedras.fsoc.uba.ar/udishal/pages_che/081a.jpg
http://catedras.fsoc.uba.ar/udishal/pages_che/054.jpg

[Doom]

http://catedras.fsoc.uba.ar/udishal/pages_che/056.jpg

[usafbalad]

Whats so great about this guy? Wasnt he an insurgent leader (in Bolivia I believe)?

[American Patriot]

Happy b-day, Che!
<img src=http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/che/dead-che.gif>

[ChuckThunder]

Happy b-day, Che!
<img src=http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/che/dead-che.gif>

:lol:

[Aerosoul]

People seem to love this guy...

Can someone point me to some info on him?

[v-twin]

He was an idealist. He was an insurgent because he fought against the US and therefore became the bad guy, but he believed he was doing good.

[vote for Pedro]

Whats so great about this guy? Wasnt he an insurgent leader (in Bolivia I believe)?

What's so bad about insurgency? Wasn't the USA formed by insurgents in a revolution?

[Doom]

look him up,

when that photo of him dead was taken, nurses and staff were taking locks of his hair out of his head so they had to keep his body under guard.

[Doom]

too many people take him for granted. he was born Ernesto Gueveara in argentena and was invited to join in the cuban revolution with castro otherwise known as the "seargents revolution".

He was not a bad guy, unlike the "terrorists" we see today.

if you read "guerrilla warfare" he explains that terrorism is not an option in guerrilla warfare because it totally diminishes popular support, as such innocents should not be killed.

then again look at what we have today, the sick being funded by the sicker.

[Rictor]

Cool.

To commemorate Che's birthday, I think we should all start a revolution. He would have wanted it this way.

[Doom]

im off to bed, so please...if this thread is going to grow, let it grow in a positive manner.

[Aerosoul]

I think we're just in time wit this MP.net revolution.

[vote for Pedro]

There was a recent Robert Redford movie about Che:

http://www.motorcyclediariesmovie.com/

[Rictor]

Yeah, though it only deals with the early years, and ends before Che really get into politics and guerilla war. I was kind of disappointed by that, it's definitely a life work examining..

[PeterG]

He was an idealist. He was an insurgent because he fought against the US and therefore became the bad guy, but he believed he was doing good.

He was a war-junkie,wasn't he..? Saw a docu on him,and he was allegedly utterly miserable after the civil war was over in Cuba - and ended up travelling abroad,looking for more wars.Got killed in the process.Had a really great pic taken of himself first,that has sold millions of T-shirts.

[stuntman]

**** him!

He was a commie and a enemy of my United States!
He is responsible for the death of many Cubans who he and Castro accused of collaborating with the US. And many of them were innocent and ended up dying in some "reeducation" and torture camps.
Celebrate his death and Castro's death very soon.

Weep em man it's America!

[Weasel]

Happy Birthday Che. :hug:

[Andrekid]

Viva a revolução!!!!!
e viva a libertade!!!!

[hughdotoh]

Somehow I have the funny feeling that Castro set him up in Bolivia because he reckoned Che to be more popular in Cuba than Castro himself.

Of course, you kids would admire a man who gave weapons to pre-teen children in Africa as an idealist.

[Wildc@rd]

Hasta La Victoria Siempre

[TacoDelRio]

A 99 cent store next to our gun shop sells Che Guevara lanyards. I might buy some....


FOR ME TO POOP ON!


I don't support his ass. Unhappy B-day, you dead commie.

[callous]

I can't believe someone posted this ****. Lets look at the great che


In 1959, Che Guevara was appointed commander of the La Cabana Fortress prison. During his term as commander of the fortress from 1959-1963, he oversaw the executions of hundreds of political prisoners and regime opponents (estimates range from 500 to 1700). Many individuals imprisoned at La Cabana, such as poet and human rights activist Armando Valladares, allege that Guevara took particular and personal interest in the interrogation, torture, and execution of some prisoners.

[frogfoot]

After the Cuban missile crisis,he said:"I launched those missiles to the U.S.A." He think Hruschev was a covard leader.

[vote for Pedro]

http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/oct03/che.jpg

[Inquisitor]

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE

VIVA IL CHE!!!!

[callous]

Deleted: For the betterment of MP.net

[nagant_m44]

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE

VIVA IL CHE!!!!

"HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE" why say that? he was defeated and is now dead

"viva il che" why say that, hes a dead man.

[vote for Pedro]

Some of you should read this: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=51213
Does everything have to turn into a flame war? Just state your opinon and move on. You guys who constantly hate make this site suck.

[callous]

Vote for Pedro isn't such a bad guy after all. ;)

[crinkler]

Commie bastard, look at his great Cuba. He was a peice of ****.

[Seiyuuki]

Some of you should read this: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=51213
Does everything have to turn into a flame war? Just state your opinon and move on. You guys who constantly hate make this site suck.

People are expressing their opinions and moving on, negatively and positively, as long as people don't get personal and start turning the thread into a battleground between themselves.

Che is a controversial figure, you can't expect everybody on this forum to praise him on his birthday.

As for my opinion, I hate Che...now moving on.

[Jani.R]

Thank God for Green Berets!!! woot

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/kriegsafe/airsoft/PWN3PCHE.jpg

Socialst murder one day. Capitalist t-shirt the next! rofl

Thats pretty sick.


How is that any better than pictures of U.s/brit/finn soldiers dead and letters "owned" over them?

Oh well, looking at your picture it seems that you are another wannabe-kiddie. :roll:

[afrographX]

Che was no angel, his only real success(?) was the revolution in cuba, but he was and is so popular especially in south america because he is a symbol against the american impererialism. And all you guys that are whining about how bad Che treated his enemies, just look at the account of the USA and what they did and supported in South America during that time! From this point of view I prefer Che above Nixon or Reagan !!

[crinkler]

Thank God for Green Berets!!! woot

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/kriegsafe/airsoft/PWN3PCHE.jpg

Socialst murder one day. Capitalist t-shirt the next! rofl

Thats pretty sick.


How is that any better than pictures of U.s/brit/finn soldiers dead and letters "owned" over them?

Oh well, looking at your picture it seems that you are another wannabe-kiddie. :roll:
hmmm wow apples and oranges. Apples and oranges

[Turhapuro]

Dead communist is good communist.

**** communists. Let them all bite the bullet and follow their man Che.

(Because I own my own company, Che and his comrades would had me executed so don't expect any pity or mercy to communist leaders from me. They are the enemy. Always. Period.)

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2002/US/07/13/binladen.myth/che.body.jpg

[chauncy republicans]

You leftists make this site suck.
No, actually little snot nosed death punks make this site suck.
People like you are the reason why so many people view this site as one big joke.

[Raistlin]

if you read "guerrilla warfare" he explains that terrorism is not an option in guerrilla warfare because it totally diminishes popular support, as such innocents should not be killed.
He forgot to take religion into account.

Che definately deserves respect from anyone. I don't admire him. Not more than Ghandi or Einstein anyway. But he was a remarkable man who did so much in his life none of you can even dream of making a percent of it. So much for a son of an upper middle class family.

No, he was no angel. But he was no evil too.



hmmm wow apples and oranges. Apples and oranges
You want apples and apples?

http://s95018925.onlinehome.us/nixon.jpg

[Baron Harkonnen]

http://img299.echo.cx/img299/8285/tanm4che7td.jpg


woot

[littlefrench]

Happy Birthday ! woot






http://img28.echo.cx/img28/2184/chebolivia39xw.jpg

http://img28.echo.cx/img28/1481/squarelargechecap0ov.jpg

http://img295.echo.cx/img295/5308/socializedmedicine6eo9ma.jpg

[Hawkeye]

You leftists make this site suck.
No, actually little snot nosed death punks make this site suck.
People like you are the reason why so many people view this site as one big joke.

I agree with that Chaucy Republicans, you guys make me ****ing sick. If you don't like him don't whine about it, most people here aren't intrested. This thread is here to celebrate the man, now imagine; I start a thread about Nixon's birthday, and half of the board comes whining how much he sucked. You'd be all like omg they were disrespectfull...
NO ONE HAS A MESSAGE ON YOUR POST
If you want to post some propaganda find another website or the Rants Forum.

[Kilgor]

Che was a murderous stalinist thug, who helped install castro with a terrible record on human rights. He was incompetitant commander and was only useful at shooting unarmed men in the back of the heads.

Now nothing more than a pathetic joke on t-shirts and a laughable hero to leftists groups who love "power to the people" but do not care that che represent NONE of these things.

**** him, and **** the leftists that admire a stalinist piece of ****

One of the CIA's best kills.

http://oshte.info/004/000105/01/1901/che_dead_guevara.jpg

I appauld those men who put the bullet through him.

No one should celebrate birthdays of murderous thugs with perverted and destructive idealisms.

[Raistlin]

To anyone who was wondering how the original iconic image looked like:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8a/Famousphotoche.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara_%28photo%29

[joshfox0]

Aww this brings back memories of years past **goes to find Che T-shirt** but then you just realise hey. this guys ideals and life were a crock of ****. happy birthday che i maynot believe in what you were trying to acheve but atleast you tried to acheeve your dream.

[callous]

The greatest evil of the 20th century is communism. Murdering oppressive thugs. Everyone time of them dies, it makes this world a better place. Che was scum and posting this happy birthday crap is a slap in the face to those Americans that have fought against communism and all it's evil. You people should be ashamed of yourselves for defending that ****.

You people are what makes others stay away and leave these boards. Alot of people I know won't post here because of the rampant anti-Americanism on these boards. Alot of military pics and knowledge won't be shared here, because of you.

Jani.R, chauncy, & Hawkeye go back to the off topic and politcal rants forums. You contribute nothing here. :bash:

[Raistlin]

Stupid people who don't know the difference between communism and totalitarianism ruin this site.

[Turhapuro]

Stupid people who don't know the difference between communism and totalitarianism ruin this site.
Theoretically there is difference, in practice there no. What to do for a thery that does not correspond reality?

Btw as far as I know, the man who took this most famous picture never got any money for it. It is taken in funeral (not Ches own altough :) ).

http://www.popartuk.com/g/l/lg6826.jpg

[Raistlin]

He never wanted any money. THAT's communism kids.

[percell_086]

edited by request

Percell

[Hawkeye]

He never wanted any money. THAT's communism kids.
Stupid people who don't know the difference between communism and totalitarianism ruin this site.

Yeah, dumbass bitches.

I still have a red Che t-shirt in my closet.

[Turhapuro]

He never wanted any money.
Are yuo sure? I think that he was just ordinary reporter.


THAT's communism kids.
No its not. It is charity.

[Fintin]

The greatest evil of the 20th century is communism. Murdering oppressive thugs. Everyone time of them dies, it makes this world a better place. Che was scum and posting this happy birthday crap is a slap in the face to those Americans that have fought against communism and all it's evil. You people should be ashamed of yourselves for defending that f***.

You people are what makes others stay away and leave these boards. Alot of people I know won't post here because of the rampant anti-Americanism on these boards. Alot of military pics and knowledge won't be shared here, because of you.

Jani.R, chauncy, & Hawkeye go back to the off topic and politcal rants forums. You contribute nothing here. :bash:

arnt you being no better then the communists you despise to say ones opinion is less valid then your own?

simmer down and think about whats important for a bit, wether they like che or wether you show respect for other board members

[Raistlin]

Are yuo sure? I think that he was just ordinary reporter.
Read the Wikipedia article I linked here.


No its not. It is charity.
It is sharing. Which IS communism.

[Luno]

Great a new flame war… :|

[percell_086]

hmmm yeah communism works!!! :roll: .....

[Fintin]

we are on a military forum right...

i heard a wise quote once...

'if you cannot respect your enemy you cannot respect yourself'...or something along those lines...

do i agree with che on most things...no

do i admire his perseverance in following his beliefs, very much so



percell there is not need for what you wrote...edit that comment, it doesnt add to the board in any way

[Luno]

hmmm yeah communism works!!! :roll: .....idiots

Excuse me? Was that directed
towards me?

[Knutsen]

100% agree Fintin.
Che might not have been an angel (in fact i don't like him at all), but he fought for what he believed and was (and still is) loved by many people.
Did he kill innocents? Probably, but isn't the USA doing the same and you guys follow its policies blindly?
He probably tortured and killed prisoners with the excuse that they were enemies...but in the end isn't that what the USA is doing in Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo? Or are you going to say everyone captured by the USA is a terrorist??? Or that everyone fighting against the USA is a terrorist?

You have to learn to be a little more balanced my friends. And btw, let's stop this flame war. What happened to the "Save MP.net"??

[Raistlin]

hmmm yeah communism works!!! :roll: .....idiots
It works in smaller dedicated societies. But it doesn't f***ing mean one can just insult those who believe in that ideology.

[Rictor]

Honestly guys, this is just stupid. You don't see people coming into your Pat Tillman threads and starting a flamewar. If you have nothing important or relevant to say, kindly keep out.

[Hawkeye]

Thanks to some respectfull persons like Fintin, Knutsen and Raistlin.
They may not have like the guy, but they respect his deeds.

That is how MP.net is supposed to be saved

[Catch22]

Not much to be respected in this person, really. Nonetheless generation of 68' created his image as a freedom fighter, and ultimately he became pop culture icon. What were his ideals, motivations and achievements (if there were any for instance - this man was a failure basically) most of people with "Che" Tees on simply don't know...

And tell me guys how many of you actually lived in a communist-ruled country? Any thoughts you would like to share? ;)

[Raistlin]

most of people with "Che" Tees on simply don't know...
True. But what does it have to do with Che himself?


And tell me guys how many of you actually lived in a communist-ruled country?
My parents lived in a communist totalitarian country. But I also lived in a pure communist community which is not based on totalitarianism.

[v-twin]

You guys should see "Los Diarios de Motocicleta"(The motorcycle diaries). I know it's foreign and you need to read the captions, but it's a really good movie that depicts his life before joining Castro. The US was ****ing up all of South America's countries and the people were poor. He saw that, thought it was wrong and chose to fight for his people. He chose to fight for the PEOPLE, not interests of governments and corporations.

He gave up a VERY good life as a doctor in Buenos Aires to pursue his dreams. I'd like to see you ass-holes doing that :lol:

Vaya con Dios, Che!

[rhino]

holly, whos b day we are going to celebrate next??

hope the fvcker burns in hell for eternity, all I got to say about this topic,
respect his deeds????? in this case Ill say respect is another form of fear
http://img221.echo.cx/img221/1028/communism0nm3bv.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)

[SS1983]

holly, whos b day we are going to celebrate next??

hope the fvcker burns in hell for eternity, all I got to say about this topic,
respect his deeds????? in this case Ill say respect is another form of fear
http://img221.echo.cx/img221/1028/communism0nm3bv.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)How many people got killed by Capitalism and Racism?Let us give them another chance! p-)

[XTC]

Happy B-day Fidel Castro (hijo de puta) woot

http://www.usefulwork.com/shark/chef05.jpg
http://www.aref.de/kalenderblatt/2004/pics/fidel-castro_che.jpg
http://www.hist.umn.edu/~rmccaa/MODERN/cubarev/img015.gif

[SOG]

well i admire a man for sticking to what he believes in period. people you can trust to follow through with what they say and do. not like wishy washy bull**** touchy politics in over developed countires. and when we cross paths ill admire thier dead bodies smiling, because i stuck to what i believed in and am victorious.

heres to the non pussy non wishy washy humans who actually do ****.

and for the love of god, stop with this anti communistic bull****. communism could work on many levels just like any other lifestyle. its the people who implemented the ideal that ****ed it up. go scream to thier graves, stop pissing on others ways of life. so they are different, cry me a ****ing river!

[Inquisitor]

And tell me guys how many of you actually lived in a communist-ruled country? Any thoughts you would like to share?

I did live in a communist country that once was a great country and people lived good.Than, because of nationalism, capitalism and greed it became ****.

Hasta la Victoria Siempre

Smrt Fasizmu,Sloboda Narodu

http://www.uco.es/~i62guigm/che/imagenes/che-tito.jpg

[Morboute]

holly, whos b day we are going to celebrate next??

hope the fvcker burns in hell for eternity, all I got to say about this topic,
respect his deeds????? in this case Ill say respect is another form of fear
http://img221.echo.cx/img221/1028/communism0nm3bv.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)How many people got killed by Capitalism and Racism?Let us give them another chance! p-)


rofl

I talked with an American student here and he said that Swedens democracy was bad since we had so many parties so they didnt get a majority of the votes in an election while in US there was only two so one always had over 50%.

My reply was that they should do as China, only have one party so they would get 100% of the votes.

He never talked to me again after that. :roll:

and i really really hate the "OWNED" pictures, very disrespectful. Im pretty sure you would be pissed if someone started to post pictures of dead soldiers with the OWNED tag on them. :bash:

[Jeremiah]

http://oshte.info/004/000105/01/1901/che_dead_guevara.jpg


che is a good communist now. :lol:

[rhino]

holly, whos b day we are going to celebrate next??

hope the fvcker burns in hell for eternity, all I got to say about this topic,
respect his deeds????? in this case Ill say respect is another form of fear
http://img221.echo.cx/img221/1028/communism0nm3bv.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)How many people got killed by Capitalism and Racism?Let us give them another chance! p-)

p-) you are right, its important that we learn and move on, and dont repeat the mistakes of the past

[rhino]

[size=18]Thats pretty sick.


How is that any better than pictures of U.s/brit/finn soldiers dead and letters "owned" over them?



to answer your question with another one, how many of those fallen coalition troops have overseen a mass executions of political prisners?????
or even have intentionally killed innocent civilians????????

[Fintin]

SHUT IT...all of you...just shut it

[melon]

Yesterday was Flag Day in the US, a more fitting holiday, one that actually means something. Not a holiday for a pop culture, T-shirt icon of todays intellectualy bankrupt left.

[gaijinsamurai]

Communism was one of the greatest tragedies of the 20th Century, and Che helped perpetuate it, but to leave it at that is way too simplistic. There would have been discontent and uprisings with or without Che and Fidel. You can thank people like Henry Kissinger, Allen and John Foster Dulles, and lots of other Americans for that!
Ernesto "Che" Guevara was a doctor from a middle-class family, and wanted to help Latin Americans better themselves. He didn't start out as a revolutionary, but he happened to be in Guatemala at the same time that country's democratically-elected leader, Jacobo Arbenz, was overthrown by the CIA at the bequest of United Fruit Company, who (big surprise!!) had amongst it's biggest stock holders, Allen Dulles, who also happened to be the director of the CIA! As a result, hundreds of thousands of Guatemalans ultimately lost their lives over the next few decades at the hands of the right-wing (but US and Israeli-backed) government, and/or insurgents.
Yeah, Che went too far at times, but I can see why he felt the way he did.

[hood]

and for the love of god, stop with this anti communistic bull****. communism could work on many levels just like any other lifestyle. its the people who implemented the ideal that f*** it up.

You've pointed out the exact problem with communism. The human element. Communism works great for ants and various insects, but not for people who have higher intellects. Someone will ALWAYS come along and f*** it up, because we're human. It's why it'll never work in the real world.

As for Che, I watched a long documentary on the guy a few months ago. He separated himself from Castro because of Castro's turn to communism. He felt that communism wasn't what he was originally fighting for and went to extreme lengths to try and convince Castro to stop it. The executions and torture of policitcal dissidents as mentioned earlier in this thread wasn't so black and white of an issue as you guys would like to think. These were the guys that Castro and Che had just overthrown with their revolution. They were the ones who had originally killed many thousands and led a repressive regime. In Castro and Che's eyes, and indeed in the eyes of most of Cuba's people, they deserved what they got. The problem is that as with many revolutions, Castro became power hungry and it went too far. This is when Che started to distance himself and eventually left for other countries to try and free them (in his mind anyway). Castro saw this as a betrayal and effectively cut off all supplies to Che who was in the jungle, and told various people where he was so he could be captured.

You guys want to paint a black and white picture of the guy.. He's a no good commie! .. get the facts. Nothing's that simple in this world. Castro and Che were loved by an entire nation at the time of the governments overthrow, including by the US before he fell to the 'dark side'.

[km5]

viva la petrolucion!

http://www.t-shirthumor.com/Merchant2/graphics/fullsize/chen_lg.gif

[Morboute]

Humans are evil!

We (humans) tend to twist good things into bad things. Religon should be a prime example, the countless of people that have been murdered in the name of God/allah or what ever. :(

[Lokos]

You know, not every communist is a blood thirsty dictator in the making... Some communists honestly just want equal distribution of wealth, equality for all human beings and a tearing down of the social hiearchy we have in place.

Now, however impractical these goals are, statements like 'che is now a good communist [being dead]' seem to me a promotion of racism, inequality, economic discrimination and intolerance.

Are you now going to tell me that the system we have today is morally sound? Perhaps it is the best form of governance we have been able to achieve - as a social species.

Yet, it has simply proven to be the least evil - and certainly not 'good', in the classic sense of the term.

So, while you insult dead idealists, keep in mind that these people, for the vast majority of the time, only wanted freedom, equality and the ability to pursue happiness - something you purport to believe in. Communism, as an ideal, was and still is a search for something better than what people have been saddled with for several hundred years now.

Of course, in practice, it has never shown itself to be ideal. Perhaps that has something to do with the sort of nations and individuals that have adopted Communism - and have only done it in name. I will illustrate with a sort of example.

1) An ambitious individual, living in a mostly agrarian country, and as a member of a society that does not promote upward social mobility for all but a select few, hears of an ideological movement amongst certain classes of society - a movement that demands equal rights, social freedom and a redistribution of tightly centralized wealth.

2) Said ambitious individual is a talented orator and articulator of ideals, and an able organizer. Attaching himself to this movement, he manages to become its centerpiece. His crusade, however, is not that of his ideological colleagues. He is, in fact, simply using this new ideology as a vehicle of power.

3) After a struggle with the old order, the new 'Communist' regime is formed. However, the society this new order is dealing with is not the ideal pre-Communist society. It is not industrialized. It is not relatively educated. It does not have a significant working class. What it does have is a massive base of peasantry and a small ruling elite.

4) Almost immediately, the reactive forces in other nearby countries, who have not lost a struggle with 'Communists', act to destabilize and destroy the new regime.

5) The regime, in fear of being unseated from its hardwon position of power, begins doing whatever it sees as neccessary in order to check the advance of the 'reactionaries'. The ambitious individual, who always had this specific aim in mind, solidifies the regime's power at the expense of individuals and Communist ideals, arguing practicality and the neccessity of survival - lest the Communist cause lose out completely.

6) Having done that, and in the meantime violating the very precepts the regime was supposedly promoting, the newfound leader of this 'Communist' state abandons all pretence of ideologically based policy and begins his own personal rule, seeing that, practically speaking, true Communism is impossible.

What I describe is, of course, very general. But I think you'll find that most 'Communist' societies have this sort of origin.

I would argue several things:

1 - Communism has never existed. Cosmetically, perhaps. Never truly, however. Simply speaking, in every case of 'Communist' countries arising from the ashes of the old order, we see that few, if any, of Marx's conditions were satisfied contextually.

2 - Like all ideologies, Communism is susceptible to human nature. Many leaders are exactly that because of personal ambition. For Communist societies, ambitious leaders are anathema.

Therefore, I ask you, please do not judge dogmatically.

I will use a very simple analogy, as a parting gesture:

'Guns don't kill people - people kill people'.

Communism doesn't kill people - people kill people.

Lokos

[Raistlin]

He's a no good commie!
Never said he did. I just think he deserves most of our respects.

[Lokos]

Damn you, Hood.

You said what I wanted to say and did it while I wasn't looking!

p-)

Lokos

[melon]

How can anything be so good if such draconian measures are needed for its inplementation? Its a intellectualy flawed system that forgets to accept the unique characteristics of the human condition. It is a flawed theory that has NEVER worked, if you value freedom of rights and property ownership. Che was a perfect candidate for its virus like ability to capture young minds who feel guilty about a parents success or position in society. We have a phrase for it in America, its called "Liberal Guilt." The socialist movement is almost entirely comprised of young, college aged, middle class white kids who feel guilty about being from such a advantages position in our society. That only if the wealthy just gave more to the poor that somehow they would rise out of poverty. Its a farsical notion, one proven to do nothing but remove all wealth from a society. The only true way out of poverty is hard work in an enviroment that allows freedom of ideas to excell.

Capitalism is not the answer, only part of it. FREEDOM is the largest part. Capitalism thrives under freedom, and capitalism allows one to move up in the social system, maybe not overnight, but overtime. It has its problems as well, but those problems do not stifle freedom or its brothers, opportunity and democracy.

Any celebration of someone who promoted communism or socialism is crazy, in my humble opinion. History has and will continue to prove me correct here.

[Lokos]

How can anything be so good if such draconian measures are needed for its inplementation?

The transition from monarchy/autocracy to liberal democracy wasn't, exactly, free of draconian measures, terrible wars, violations of self imposed ideals etc. either, historically speaking.


It is a flawed theory that has NEVER worked, if you value freedom of rights and property ownership.

1) You're right, it has never historically functioned. I've outlined some reasons above in a previous post.

2) Why does Communism inherently threaten 'freedom of rights'?

3) Property ownership and the mindset that values property is a product of a particular social system. Like war, it is not inherent to humanity, and there is no argument that says it should be.


Che was a perfect candidate for its virus like ability to capture young minds who feel guilty about a parents success or position in society. We have a phrase for it in America, its called "Liberal Guilt."

The middle class young minds you speak of are also not yet socially established, already educated and have the ability to think critically. 'Liberal guilt', IMHO, is an excuse that attempts to explain away very real concerns regarding what we have today with 'They're just feeling guilty over their parents' success'.


That only if the wealthy just gave more to the poor that somehow they would rise out of poverty.

I think you're missing the point. The point being that there should be no wealthy, and no poor. Both are relative terms. Communism, as an ideology, seeks to eliminate both as concepts.


The only true way out of poverty is hard work in an enviroment that allows freedom of ideas to excell.

This is very much so a Party line. Communism, as a theoretical system, has nothing against 'freedom of ideas'. It, in fact, advocates freedom. And hard work is something billions of people do every single day, and remain in poverty nonetheless.


Capitalism is not the answer, only part of it. FREEDOM is the largest part. Capitalism thrives under freedom, and capitalism allows one to move up in the social system, maybe not overnight, but overtime.

Is your definition of 'freedom' a multi-party liberal democratic system of government, or is it the freedom, the ability to pursue happiness and be your own person. As far as I can see, Communism does not put constraints on the latter, ideologically.


Any celebration of someone who promoted communism or socialism is crazy, in my humble opinion. History has and will continue to prove me correct here.

I will reiterate; most Communisms have only ever wanted FREEDOM, EQUALITY (economic and social) and JUSTICE. Are these desires ones you disagree with?

Lokos

[melon]

Those draconian measure were not kept in place to perpetuate a liberal democracy. Communism needed those measures to perpetuate itself, dissent was treated with gulags and tanks. Freedom allows dissent to be tollerated and implemented if accepted by the majority.

Property rights and the pursuit of wealth are all part of the human condition. You can't eliminate them, right or wrong. Man has always wanted his own land, be it a cave, a farm, an apartment. I believe war is also inherent to our society. From the beginning of organized societies, it has played a part. Its farsical to think it will ever be eliminated. Its our nature to go to war over ideals or greed. Again, right or wrong, its a fundamental part of our make up.

Communisms concept of removing the value of wealth, again, is crazy. It would be nice, for sure, to never have to labor for anything, but reality sets in over time and mans desire to collect things wins the day. This is another example of where it fails to grasp the basic tenents of the human condition.

You can say communism has nothing against the freedom of ideals in principle, but in reality or better yet, in its implementation, it crushes freedom of ideas. Basically because in principle, it ignors the basic realities of life or mankind. Its requires too much structure to succeed even maginally, and this structure leads to dissent, which in turn causes the whole thing to collaspe. People have to believe that their hard work and its rewards should not be bestowed upon the one who earned it. This notion is ludicris, that the fruits of labor are to be stolen and given to others. Now some of this is OK, but not a society based upon it. Again, theory vs reality. For some, the failure was in its implementation, not in its design. For most, those who have seen its failure from the outside, know that it is a flawed design from the start and see the futility to the continuation of its pursuit.


This isnt an America is great, everybody else sucks. Its the real war of ideals being fought in today's global society.

[Raistlin]

Christ, to all those people who say the communism doesn't work under any conditions just look at middle of the century Israel. Kibutz anyone???

Communism can also work on intellectual level I believe. Freedom of copyright.

But, heck, I'm going OT. This is about Che, not communism

[km5]

i lived for 10 years under communism. I ****ing HATE communists.


communism is slavery of the human soul.

communism is standing in line for a pair of shoes in the winter, for 5 hours.

communism is having your child die from a preventable disease because all healthcare is free and ****ing awful.


communism is having to wipe your ass with Pravda newspaper because due to central economic planning, there is no toilet paper available

Communism is the death of the soul. It is the organization of total conformity--in short, of tyranny--and it is committed to making tyranny universal. - Adlai Stevenson

there is an old quote:
"How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin. "

[rhino]

I will reiterate; most Communisms have only ever wanted FREEDOM, EQUALITY (economic and social) and JUSTICE. Are these desires ones you disagree with?

Lokos
FREEDOM? to spread the dasise to the neighbouring countries?? couse you cant be talking about freedom of speech? or of movement? or of association? of religion? of pursuit of happines as long as it doesnt infringe on the others freedoms?
EQUALITY? to take everything from the haves and give it to havenots? to make an uneducated men a minister responisible for countrys agriculture? or technology sector? to, as an incentive, create a new class of the "party members" who will receive more then the non members so that they will flock to the partys door and ask for membership so they can feed their children??
JUSTICE? to lock up all those that dont agree with the party line? all the educated ones that know that a earth clasified as Grade 3 will not bear fruit to wheat, but maybe patetoes, but the country neads the bread to feed the working class? the educated ones that may point out the shortcommings of those in power? the justice to those naive ones that think that if they point out there is a better way to achieve a goal get arrested for spreading the capitalistic values?

and I thought I liked you Lokos :|

[Raistlin]

[communism sucks]

..
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1033934#1033934

[drGreen]

Stupid people who don't know the difference between communism and totalitarianism ruin this site.

or communism and socialism

[melon]

I think Im in love, Melon please tell me you are a chick, 5'10", blond/brunet/redhead, slim and need C cups???

seriously, its nice to see that not all the eloquent writers proscribe to the commie ideals, you have certanly captured most of my fillings, and likewize for km5


Sorry, a 6'1" 230lb former Marine. Although, I do get some funny PM's from socialist who ask if I am gay. I guess being a proficient, conservative writer means you're a fag. They didn't like being spanked or being told that their classroom view of the world is bunk and doesnt hold up to the basic test of common sense or logic.

[Lokos]

Communism needed those measures to perpetuate itself, dissent was treated with gulags and tanks.

Let me just make it clear; not every Communist is a Soviet, and not every Soviet was a Communist. Tearing Communism down with calls of 'GULAG! Oppression!' doesn't work if the system in question was never Communist in the first place. Apart from state owned industry, explain to me how the Soviet Union, China, Cuba or Vietnam were ever Communist, apart from designating themselves as such? Certainly, there were ideologues who believed in Communist throughout the history of the Soviet Union.

These were not the people in power.


Those draconian measure were not kept in place to perpetuate a liberal democracy.

I will give you an example. The French Revolution of 1789. A democratic (ostensibly), liberal, morally driven government instituted an official policy of terror and oppression to weather a reactionary (autocratic/monarchist) storm. It achieved its greatest practical successes during the period of greatest repression (1792-1793).

Germany, in the aftermath of WWI, became democratic. In the face of Communist pressure, it tacitly approved of brutal crackdowns after the Spartanist Revolt, in order to preserve the new political system in the face of such opposition.

Or, perhaps, the United States - which preserved its own existence by warring against its own citizens who no longer wished to be a part of that state.

There are other examples of democratic governments (or 'free states', as you would label them) instituting policies of outright terror against political opponents. This is nothing unique to would-be Communist regimes.


Property rights and the pursuit of wealth are all part of the human condition.

That's, IMHO, a mistaken belief. Certainly, property rights and the pursuit of wealth are a part of the modern 'human condition' - but they are not a part of human nature. We know this because the earliest human societies in no way emphasised property or the 'pursuit of wealth' as an important aspect of life. In fact, the earliest human societies were very communist when it comes to property. Go figure.


Man has always wanted his own land, be it a cave, a farm, an apartment.

No. The first familial associations and tribes shared places of residence, tools and all other items that can be labelled 'property'.


I believe war is also inherent to our society.

I agree, if by 'our society' you mean modern human society. Once again, the farther back you go, the less important war is to human societies in general. Conflict has always been a part of human nature, yet 'conflict' does not have to become 'war' automatically - or even neccessarily.


Its farsical to think it will ever be eliminated.

Many things have been thought farcical until they've been achieved by those with the will and the strength to achieve them.


Its our nature to go to war over ideals or greed.

That assumes that 'greed' or 'ideals' are part of human nature. I believe they are not, and are the products of a specific socio-historical context that is quite alterable in the long run.


Communisms concept of removing the value of wealth, again, is crazy.

Once upon a time the notion that "All men are created equal" was 'crazy', too.


It would be nice, for sure, to never have to labor for anything, but reality sets in over time and mans desire to collect things wins the day.

'Never having to labour anything' is not at all the work ethic Communism proposes in theory or in practice.

Again, here, you make fundamental assumptions about human nature that should not be taken as a given at all.


but in reality or better yet, in its implementation, it crushes freedom of ideas.

If all you are talking about is the 'Communism' that has existed in history (in the USSR, PRC etc), then I wouldn't disagree. Yet, ideal Communism does nothing of the kind.


Basically because in principle, it ignors the basic realities of life or mankind.

Why do you take your point of view in regards to what human nature is and allege it to be fact? I hold a view quite contrary to yours and think I am no less right. How can our two views be reconciled then? By what standard or merit would you judge which is the more correct, or closer to the factual reality we are faced with?


Its requires too much structure to succeed even maginally, and this structure leads to dissent, which in turn causes the whole thing to collaspe.

Could you elaborate what you mean by 'requires too much structure' and, indeed, 'structure'?


People have to believe that their hard work and its rewards should not be bestowed upon the one who earned it.

I assume you meant that 'people have to believe that their hard work and its rewards should not be bestowed upon someone who didn't earn it' (alteration in bold).

This statement again shrieks of the individualist perspective. There are many nations where this perspective is not the common view, or has not been the common view in the past. For example, Confucian China - wherein individuality was seen as something with very much so less value than you would attribute it.

Community vs Individual has been a raging ideological and political conflict for several thousand years. And it is far too wide a discourse to be properly explored here. Let me simply state that there is a point of view opposite to yours, and that there is nothing to show that it is incorrect (or that either of them are, for that matter). But it is a differing point of view, so I take exception to you assuming that the view you hold in this regard is correct.


Again, theory vs reality.

Liberal democracy was once a theory, and was thought ridiculous because it did not exist in 'reality'. Reality can be altered. Only when one assumes that his or her individual perception of reality is the 'way things are' and thus that it is immutable does one place unviolable constraints upon one's self.


For most, those who have seen its failure from the outside, know that it is a flawed design from the start and see the futility to the continuation of its pursuit.

Something that has never existed in practice cannot fail in the way you describe.


This isnt an America is great, everybody else sucks.

I do not equate liberal democracy with America.


Its the real war of ideals being fought in today's global society.

Indeed. What makes your ideals the more just?

Lokos

[Lokos]

I see that in the time I've taken to reply to melon's post, many others have posted.

I cannot reply to you all, I'm sorry. Either I'll leave it for another day, or we'll just have to agree to disagree, or whatever.

But let me make one thing perfectly clear:

I am not a Communist. Or a Socialist.

I am simply making the attempt to explain something from the perspective of a Communist or a Socialist.

I share many beliefs with true Communists, yet these are also beliefs shared by Liberals.

Regards,
Lokos

[Knutsen]

A bit off topic but i think appropriate:

Many people are condemning communism , saying communism is worse than fascism or nazism. Yes, as Hood pointed out , communism wil never work in a human society (although i think socialism can work, but not the "socialism" you guys think of), there's a huge difference between nazism and communism.
Yes, communist regimes have been "evil" (i hate the world evil), they've been the cause of millions deaths, we all agree, the difference is that what you call communism, is simply a bad implementation of communism, it's just a mixture of totalitarism with communist ideas.
Communism is a political theory, nothing else, whereas nazism (which comes from a politcal party) talks about racial superiority and other things that make it inherently bad (according our moral and society standards, who knows, maybe in the next centuries it changes and everyone sees nazism as positive).

There's a town here in southern spain ruled by IU (new name of Communist Party) which implements a theoretical communism inside a socialdemocracy (our current Government). According to several studies, the town has 0% unemployment, satisactory health care and a high standard of living in which most people have a communist approach to agriculture. (i'm sorry but i can't remember the name of thetown).
Even in a large city like Cordoba (ruled also by IU) people have one of the highest living standards in Spain.

[memphiz]

Someone care to explain how Che died exactly?

I like this thread, there was a voice of opinions and it didnt resort to a lot of "i F^(*ed yiour whore mom with a broomstick you commie F@#$!!!!" type comments
See it worked out well :) I learned alot in this thread, I thought Che was just a symbol for pot heads (because I always see them in his shirts), but now I learned somthing new.

[rhino]

lokos your post is too long for me to go to each of your points and conterpoint it
however one thing I find interesting, what you saying that even before the huner-gatherer sociaties "people" leaved in communist "state"? you mean there was no such thing as the "biggest monkey" in the groop that decided where to go, that the "biggest monkey" didnt always sleap in the highest branches of the trees, away from predators?? that the "biggest monkey" didnt get the healthiest female, if not all the females in the groop??? that the "biggest monkey" wasnt the first one to eat???

[km5]

Someone care to explain how Che died exactly?

I like this thread, there was a voice of opinions and it didnt resort to a lot of "i F^(*ed yiour whore mom with a broomstick you commie F@#$!!!!" type comments
See it worked out well :) I learned alot in this thread, I thought Che was just a symbol for pot heads (because I always see them in his shirts), but now I learned somthing new.

Che is nothing but a ****ing t-shirt

he must be spinning in his grave knowing how his face is used to make $$$ capitalist money and how the t-shirt is probably made in some sweat shop by the proletariat. **** Che.

[rhino]

A bit off topic but i think appropriate:

Many people are condemning communism , saying communism is worse than fascism or nazism. Yes, as Hood pointed out , communism wil never work in a human society (although i think socialism can work, but not the "socialism" you guys think of), there's a huge difference between nazism and communism.
Yes, communist regimes have been "evil" (i hate the world evil), they've been the cause of millions deaths, we all agree, the difference is that what you call communism, is simply a bad implementation of communism, it's just a mixture of totalitarism with communist ideas.
Communism is a political theory, nothing else, whereas nazism (which comes from a politcal party) talks about racial superiority and other things that make it inherently bad (according our moral and society standards, who knows, maybe in the next centuries it changes and everyone sees nazism as positive).

There's a town here in southern spain ruled by IU (new name of Communist Party) which implements a theoretical communism inside a socialdemocracy (our current Government). According to several studies, the town has 0% unemployment, satisactory health care and a high standard of living in which most people have a communist approach to agriculture. (i'm sorry but i can't remember the name of thetown).
Even in a large city like Cordoba (ruled also by IU) people have one of the highest living standards in Spain.

and does the economy of the said town supports itself or does it receive the financial help from the regional/federal government???????????

[Knutsen]

nd does the economy of the said town supports itself or does it receive the financial help from the regional/federal government???????????


which implements a theoretical communism inside a socialdemocracy
I think that is clear. If your point is to show communism can't support itself, i agree, but no capitalist town would support itself neither. That's why i think socialism is possible and communism not.

[Turhapuro]

there's a huge difference between nazism and communism.
Yes. In nazism, they want to erase entire race from nation. In extreme situations this leads to gas chambers. In communism they want to erase entire class of people. In extreme situations this leads to gulags.

Looks like everyone here is forgetting that communism/socialism cannot work because it cannot use its resources efficiently. Everyone seems to think that it would work if there would be more people who would not slack. Even if people would not slack, it still would lagg behind unslacking capitalist nations.

Socialism just doesn't work as an economic system. Talking buls**** about good idea but bad implementation just forgets the very basic flaws that socialism/communism has.

[Rictor]

Socialism is an economic system, not political or social. The economic axis is dividided Left-Right, while the political/social axis is Libertarian-Authoritarian. Fine, I admit, almost every instance of Socialism has been tyranical, but that doesn't discredit the idea. I have some issues with the idea as well, but it's no use pretending that any incarnation of socialism is inferior to any incarnation of capitalism. It depends on how authoritarian the person or people in charge are, and let's be honest, there is always someone in charge.

There are plenty of examples of tyranical capitalism. The problem with socialism is that the examples that had the potential to develop into something other than a perverse State-controlled society came under attack by outside forces, and in war liberties have a tendency to disappear. Socialism (as well as capitalism) should ideally be very libertarian (supportive of individual rights) and democratic, which is what I think Che was fighting for, as opposed to the USSR-system of State control.

[hood]

Posts with **** women pictures deleted. Don't do it again.

[Inquisitor]

Posts with **** women pictures deleted. Don't do it again.

damn why do you think we signed on MP.net :( ?

[GeraldDuval]

http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/square-large-nochegr.gif

I just bought this shirt the other day.

anyway, I think that while i completely do not agree with what he was fighting for (I am a republican) I think that I can give him a grudging admiration because he fought so hard for what he believed was right. its unfortunate that the symbol he has become is a fcuking hot topic t-shirt...

[vote for Pedro]

This site is a joke. 7 pages of mostly garbage.

[luke`]

The greatest evil of the 20th century is communism. Murdering oppressive thugs. Everyone time of them dies, it makes this world a better place. Che was scum and posting this happy birthday crap is a slap in the face to those Americans that have fought against communism and all it's evil. You people should be ashamed of yourselves for defending that f***.

You people are what makes others stay away and leave these boards. Alot of people I know won't post here because of the rampant anti-Americanism on these boards. Alot of military pics and knowledge won't be shared here, because of you.

Jani.R, chauncy, & Hawkeye go back to the off topic and politcal rants forums. You contribute nothing here. :bash:

You are confusing communism with authoritarianism.

Communism is not inherently evil, nor even is facism, only the way it is used.


Socialism just doesn't work as an economic system. Talking buls**** about good idea but bad implementation just forgets the very basic flaws that socialism/communism has.

The scandinavian countries are doing pretty well from it, whether it's the best standard of living in the world, or massive multi-national corporations like Siemens.

Please not I am not a socialist, but a free-thinking moderate.

[vote for Pedro]

You leftists make this site suck.


The greatest evil of the 20th century is communism. Murdering oppressive thugs. Everyone time of them dies, it makes this world a better place. Che was scum and posting this happy birthday crap is a slap in the face to those Americans that have fought against communism and all it's evil. You people should be ashamed of yourselves for defending that f***.

You people are what makes others stay away and leave these boards. Alot of people I know won't post here because of the rampant anti-Americanism on these boards. Alot of military pics and knowledge won't be shared here, because of you.

Jani.R, chauncy, & Hawkeye go back to the off topic and politcal rants forums. You contribute nothing here. :bash:

I post a pic of Che and now I am a leftist? You are telling me I am anti-American? Let me tell you why people like me are leaving this site. I served 8 years in the US military, I vote Republican, I have a doctorate degree, and I have recently been to hostile enviornment security contractor training, and you call me a leftist and anti-American because I posted a pic of Che. You think I am anti-American? It doesn't get more American than me. Tell me about your service to America.

[melon]

The scandinavian countries are doing pretty well from it, whether it's the best standard of living in the world, or massive multi-national corporations like Siemens.

Please not I am not a socialist, but a free-thinking moderate.


Please, unless you are the Scandinavian slob that has to foot this bill. The redistribution of wealth system is a fraud, it only burdens those willing to make a living for themselves. At some point, those who pay the tab are not going to be able to foot the bill, then what?

Please read this. http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/sanandaji1.html

[bloddyaxe]

The scandinavian countries are doing pretty well from it, whether it's the best standard of living in the world, or massive multi-national corporations like Siemens.

Please not I am not a socialist, but a free-thinking moderate.

My country's economy improved severely when we toned down the scandie style communism in the early 1990s...

p-)

[callous]

You leftists make this site suck.


The greatest evil of the 20th century is communism. Murdering oppressive thugs. Everyone time of them dies, it makes this world a better place. Che was scum and posting this happy birthday crap is a slap in the face to those Americans that have fought against communism and all it's evil. You people should be ashamed of yourselves for defending that f***.

You people are what makes others stay away and leave these boards. Alot of people I know won't post here because of the rampant anti-Americanism on these boards. Alot of military pics and knowledge won't be shared here, because of you.

Jani.R, chauncy, & Hawkeye go back to the off topic and politcal rants forums. You contribute nothing here. :bash:

I post a pic of Che and now I am a leftist? You are telling me I am anti-American? Let me tell you why people like me are leaving this site. I served 8 years in the US military, I vote Republican, I have a doctorate degree, and I have recently been to hostile enviornment security contractor training, and you call me a leftist and anti-American because I posted a pic of Che. You think I am anti-American? It doesn't get more American than me. Tell me about your service to America.


http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/oct03/che.jpg

I would hardly call the what you posted a pic. More like a 'propaganda poster'. I wonder why I would ever confuse you for a leftist :roll:

If it makes you feel better to write off what I say, because I was never in the military go right ahead. To tell you the truth I am exactly what I want to be. An honest hard working American father. Who supports his family and friends that have served and continue to serve in the US military.

Thank you for your military service. I appreciate it.

[vote for Pedro]

You leftists make this site suck.


The greatest evil of the 20th century is communism. Murdering oppressive thugs. Everyone time of them dies, it makes this world a better place. Che was scum and posting this happy birthday crap is a slap in the face to those Americans that have fought against communism and all it's evil. You people should be ashamed of yourselves for defending that f***.

You people are what makes others stay away and leave these boards. Alot of people I know won't post here because of the rampant anti-Americanism on these boards. Alot of military pics and knowledge won't be shared here, because of you.

Jani.R, chauncy, & Hawkeye go back to the off topic and politcal rants forums. You contribute nothing here. :bash:

I post a pic of Che and now I am a leftist? You are telling me I am anti-American? Let me tell you why people like me are leaving this site. I served 8 years in the US military, I vote Republican, I have a doctorate degree, and I have recently been to hostile enviornment security contractor training, and you call me a leftist and anti-American because I posted a pic of Che. You think I am anti-American? It doesn't get more American than me. Tell me about your service to America.


http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/oct03/che.jpg

I would hardly call the what you posted a pic. More like a 'propaganda poster'. I wonder why I would ever confuse you for a leftist :roll:

If it makes you feel better to write off what I say, because I was never in the military go right ahead. To tell you the truth I am exactly what I want to be. An honest hard working American father. Who supports his family and friends that have served and continue to serve in the US military.

Thank you for your military service. I appreciate it.

Your welcome, and thanks for being a good father. I was merely trying to point out that no matter what kind of picture I post, don't jump to the conclusion that I am anti-American. The thread was about Che, so I googled and found that pic/painting/statement/whatever. By that action alone (posting a pic) you shouldn't be able instantly judge me and say I am anti-American, because you don't know anything about me, and no I am not anti-American, just the opposite.

[Hawkeye]

Someone care to explain how Che died exactly?

I like this thread, there was a voice of opinions and it didnt resort to a lot of "i F^(*ed yiour whore mom with a broomstick you commie F@#$!!!!" type comments
See it worked out well :) I learned alot in this thread, I thought Che was just a symbol for pot heads (because I always see them in his shirts), but now I learned somthing new.
Thats something good, and it's the trueth too. I'm glad to see that not this entire site has the insight of a mailbox.
....But then this guy came in


Che is nothing but a f*** t-shirt

he must be spinning in his grave knowing how his face is used to make $$$ capitalist money and how the t-shirt is probably made in some sweat shop by the proletariat. f*** Che.

Hood, or anybody else. I think this kind of behaviour deserves a ban or a warning.
Just my 2 cents

[moughoun]

Someone care to explain how Che died exactly?
.
he was captured by Bolivian special forces, he was then shot in a jail cell by a Sergeant who volunteered to execute him, 4 or 5 other soldier's wanted in, ran into the room and shot him numerous time's, it was meant to make it look like he was shot in a an ambush,

[km5]

Hood, or anybody else. I think this kind of behaviour deserves a ban or a warning.
Just my 2 cents

let me ask you something, have you ever lived under a communist system?

[Raistlin]

What does THAT have to do with anything?

But km5 is mostly correct though. Che indeed must be spinning in his grave after seeing how commercialised his image had become.

[Seiyuuki]

Che is nothing but a f*** t-shirt

he must be spinning in his grave knowing how his face is used to make $$$ capitalist money and how the t-shirt is probably made in some sweat shop by the proletariat. f*** Che.

Hood, or anybody else. I think this kind of behaviour deserves a ban or a warning.
Just my 2 cents

Well, barring the inappropriate language, you got to admit, what km5 said is true...

[wiking]

I'm not so sure about that, i think that Che is happier to be remembered, atleast by some, as a man of ideals who fought for them, and then backed of when Castro went (in Che's mind) to far into the stalinist communism.

Anyway, it's better than being remembered as a evil commie bastard and having his murder hailed and praized by yanks as one of the best things that happened in the 20th century.

Or being outright forgotten.

Anyone who fights for what he believes in, and in the worst case dies doing it, deserves nothing but respect.

So, happy birthday Ernesto Guevara, some of us can atleast remember you without hatred and loathing.

[Hawkeye]

Che is nothing but a f*** t-shirt

he must be spinning in his grave knowing how his face is used to make $$$ capitalist money and how the t-shirt is probably made in some sweat shop by the proletariat. f*** Che.

Hood, or anybody else. I think this kind of behaviour deserves a ban or a warning.
Just my 2 cents

Well, barring the inappropriate language, you got to admit, what km5 said is true...

Yeah, appart from that last little sentence.
It's true, and very sad too. People use it as a fasion statement to be rebel. Now I hate those fasion statements. I wear a Che shirt, but i know what he was about.

[California Joe]

Observations:

Hood and Lokos can be very eloquent.

A great many people in here have their narrow focus, black and white heads up their asses.

callous needs to quit telling people where they can post.

Tane used to preach "grey areas" in all conflicts. He actually had experience in these matters. Even if it's for self preservation, you learn about your enemies culture and history and context. WHY do they do what they do.

Monday morning quarterbacking based on current historical knowledge is bull****. This guy did what he thought was right at the time for whatever motives. It didn't quite work out. My Dad used to fly to Cuba from Miami a long time ago to party and whore around. That's about what Cuba was back in the day. A whorehouse for America. Kinda like Vegas with a latin influence.

Cuban dudes apparently can't grow a decent beard to save their lives. Jesus that's some ugly facial hair.

[Hawkeye]

Cuban dudes apparently can't grow a decent beard to save their lives. Jesus that's some ugly facial hair.

Depends on what you like ;)

[callous]

So we should respect and praise those that stick to thier ideals no matter how much blood is on thier hands? Well then, Happy Birthday Hitler! Happy Birthday Stalin! Happy Birthday Pol Pot! :|

[Stormy]

The Bolivian Special forces got him at the end. I think it was a stand off with a few guys vs the Bolivian SF out on the hills of Bolivia.

[km5]

So we should respect and praise those that stick to thier ideals no matter how much blood is on thier hands? Well then, Happy Birthday Hitler! Happy Birthday Stalin! Happy Birthday Pol Pot! :|

happy b-day Osama, you serious-minded, committed, determined guy you!

[California Joe]

Not respect in the praise sense. Respect in the sense that they might kill you if you take them lightly. Like in the movie Hamburger Hill when the Sgt explains how Victor Charles should be called Mr. Victor Charles....You're completely ignoring the times this guy lived in and what he attempted to change. Seriously, how old are you and how much has Communism in Latin America effected your life? I'm thinking that the Reagan sponsored Contra's were probably at least as bad as old Che and his crew. Probably much worse.

[moughoun]

The Bolivian Special forces got him at the end. I think it was a stand off with a few guys vs the Bolivian SF out on the hills of Bolivia.
not quiet as noble as that, they killed him in a jail cell

[memphiz]

Someone care to explain how Che died exactly?
.
he was captured by Bolivian special forces, he was then shot in a jail cell by a Sergeant who volunteered to execute him, 4 or 5 other soldier's wanted in, ran into the room and shot him numerous time's, it was meant to make it look like he was shot in a an ambush,
Thank you

[rhino]

Not respect in the praise sense. Respect in the sense that they might kill you if you take them lightly. Like in the movie Hamburger Hill when the Sgt explains how Victor Charles should be called Mr. Victor Charles....You're completely ignoring the times this guy lived in and what he attempted to change. Seriously, how old are you and how much has Communism in Latin America effected your life? I'm thinking that the Reagan sponsored Contra's were probably at least as bad as old Che and his crew. Probably much worse.

and as much as you can thank the Reagan and Co. for people like Che, you can thank Lenin/Stalin/Marx and Co. for people like us: the antisocialists who have lived, seen and learned first hand about the Justice and Equolity done in the name of reaching out for comunism

[California Joe]

Don't get me wrong. Communism as we know it was a really bad idea if you weren't one of the privileged few. I'm just saying that the people fighting against communists were no altar boys either.

[nognig]

Anyone who fights for what he believes in, and in the worst case dies doing it, deserves nothing but respect.


I'm fighting for pedophilia. I really believe in it. If I die doing it, do I deserve respect?

NN

[callous]

Sure. Happy birthday Nognig I may not believe in what you were trying to acheve but atleast you tried to achieve your dream.

[American Patriot]

Pedophile Communists :bash:

[California Joe]

You're both acting like tools.

[callous]

A hammer or a shovel?

[CPL Trevoga]

You people should be ashamed of yourselves. Dead communist this, dead
comunist that. Comunism is the greatest evil, but it doesn't stop US from
having China as favoured trade partner.

Batista's 40,000 troops were defeated by 1,000 Castro's and Che's troops,
now that's some hard core dudes.

[Gyles84]

Gosh. The Nazis overran Western Europe in time for tea. Those are some hardcore dudes..

[Doom]

I especially thank lokos for this, most of you other people who decry che (which I respect) sound like you are a bunch of people foaming at the mouth (which i dont respect)

Che fought for what he believed in, communism was bad then...and bad now.
He thought Communism would change things for the better.

When will you people realize that your opinions are not always noticed, and thats why you have to fight for them.

EDIT: ok, i guess an image of a few things we =)K N O W(= could REALLY offend lol.

we say - A GOOD COMMIE IS A DEAD COMMIE
they say - A GOOD CAPITALIST IS A DEAD ONE

Damnit people, lets start getting along and listen to each other RESPECTABLY.

If you are offended to the point of vulgarilty with an image, how offended can you get if someone cuts you in line at the supermarket?

STRICTLY PHOTOS & VIDEO

once again, thank you lokos for CLEARLY explaining everything, and when you do...they just say "its too long to read so fvck it" Open your minds assholes, maybe you will get laid or something.O

[Dennis G]

Happy b-day, Che!
<img src=http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/che/dead-che.gif>

;)

[Clete Torres]

http://www.fotoajans.com/history/che_guevara/che_guevara_001.jpgChe's beard looks like my pubic hair.

[Doom]

i doubt you could even grow facial hair. you are just jealous.

[Clete Torres]

i doubt you could even grow facial hair. you are just jealous.True that.

[Doom]

hahahahahha.

[vote for Pedro]

Happy b-day, Che!
<img src=http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/che/dead-che.gif>

Is that George Castanza from Sienfeld on the right?

[Doom]

haha, without his glasses.

NO SOUP FOR YOU (i never watched that show, never watch tv its evil.)

[Clete Torres]

haha, without his glasses.

NO SOUP FOR YOU (i never watched that show, never watch tv its evil.)Never listen to Face 2 Face. They suck.

[rhino]

here You all go, more pics (bit on the light side) of the "hero" of the day"
http://img119.echo.cx/img119/4321/che16op.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
http://img119.echo.cx/img119/4660/che25zd.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting (http://www.imageshack.us)
http://img119.echo.cx/img119/6225/che36xl.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)
http://img119.echo.cx/img119/445/che45ru.png (http://www.imageshack.us)
all in all I like this one :D

enjoy!

[rhino]

they just say "its too long to read so fvck it" Open your minds assholes, maybe you will get laid or something.O
oi, you talking to me??

[Flagg]

Not respect in the praise sense. Respect in the sense that they might kill you if you take them lightly. Like in the movie Hamburger Hill when the Sgt explains how Victor Charles should be called Mr. Victor Charles....You're completely ignoring the times this guy lived in and what he attempted to change. Seriously, how old are you and how much has Communism in Latin America effected your life? I'm thinking that the Reagan sponsored Contra's were probably at least as bad as old Che and his crew. Probably much worse.

Bingo!

Where's Tane to help these little kiddies see more than just "right" or "wrong"?

Che was associated with communism and therefore must be bad is an oversimplistic argument that can be attributed to youth and/or ignorance.

I wonder how many "Che was bad" people would feel if their families were like the dirt poor 98% of South/Central Americans in the 1950's-1980's instead of hailing from priveledged suburban McMansions?

MILLIONS of people supported Che for valid reasons...he was like a bloody Robin Hood symbol to the masses.

The same masses who were treated like poop by often brutals regimes that just as often had overt support from the US.

His IDEAL scared the bejesus out of the US and it's allies in the region.

To me Che wasn't a hero, but I can see how he was a hero to many.

People that wear Che shirts as a symbol of protest without knowing the history behind it are no different than those that claim Che was an evil communist without knowing the relevent background.

Learn from history BEFORE you try and judge it...

[Catch22]

Flagg, mind that whole Che is/isnt cool thing is as I suggested before a question of modern mass culture. This Argentinian, regardless of his true call, intentions and possible achievements remains a certain "rebel" symbol for wide audience. That doesn't come with any awareness of a political and social situation of the times he lived in. He's just a logo on T-shirt, not much more in fact. Whole "world revolution" thing sounds today as a name for some rock album.

[vote for Pedro]

Not respect in the praise sense. Respect in the sense that they might kill you if you take them lightly. Like in the movie Hamburger Hill when the Sgt explains how Victor Charles should be called Mr. Victor Charles....You're completely ignoring the times this guy lived in and what he attempted to change. Seriously, how old are you and how much has Communism in Latin America effected your life? I'm thinking that the Reagan sponsored Contra's were probably at least as bad as old Che and his crew. Probably much worse.

Bingo!

Where's Tane to help these little kiddies see more than just "right" or "wrong"?

Che was associated with communism and therefore must be bad is an oversimplistic argument that can be attributed to youth and/or ignorance.

I wonder how many "Che was bad" people would feel if their families were like the dirt poor 98% of South/Central Americans in the 1950's-1980's instead of hailing from priveledged suburban McMansions?

MILLIONS of people supported Che for valid reasons...he was like a bloody Robin Hood symbol to the masses.

The same masses who were treated like poop by often brutals regimes that just as often had overt support from the US.

His IDEAL scared the bejesus out of the US and it's allies in the region.

To me Che wasn't a hero, but I can see how he was a hero to many.

People that wear Che shirts as a symbol of protest without knowing the history behind it are no different than those that claim Che was an evil communist without knowing the relevent background.

Learn from history BEFORE you try and judge it...

Thank You!

[Nickel1106]

Does everything have to turn into a flame war? Just state your opinon and move on. You guys who constantly hate make this site suck.

x2 :roll:

[rhino]

Bingo!
I wonder how many "Che was bad" people would feel if their families were like the dirt poor 98% of South/Central Americans in the 1950's-1980's instead of hailing from priveledged suburban McMansions?

The same masses who were treated like poop by often brutals regimes that just as often had overt support from the US.


Learn from history BEFORE you try and judge it...

and again intolerant ask the intolerant to be tolerant, I was dirt poor kid of a father that belonged to worker/farmer class, we were dirt poor, we were treated like dirt by the soviets coming over for a visit, by the party members and the well born people, that I associate the image of Che with that somewhat unplesant time of my life somehow doesnt seem to register with some people,

Does everything have to turn into a flame war? Just state your opinon and move on. You guys who constantly hate make this site suck.
it is so simple, state the opinion, dont put the question mark at the end

[Flagg]

Flagg, mind that whole Che is/isnt cool thing is as I suggested before a question of modern mass culture. This Argentinian, regardless of his true call, intentions and possible achievements remains a certain "rebel" symbol for wide audience. That doesn't come with any awareness of a political and social situation of the times he lived in. He's just a logo on T-shirt, not much more in fact. Whole "world revolution" thing sounds today as a name for some rock album.

I agree......in my personal experience it would appear "Che shirts" have become a staple of the pop lexicon.

I wonder what Che would think of the use of his image now?

[Morboute]

Flagg, mind that whole Che is/isnt cool thing is as I suggested before a question of modern mass culture. This Argentinian, regardless of his true call, intentions and possible achievements remains a certain "rebel" symbol for wide audience. That doesn't come with any awareness of a political and social situation of the times he lived in. He's just a logo on T-shirt, not much more in fact. Whole "world revolution" thing sounds today as a name for some rock album.

I agree......in my personal experience it would appear "Che shirts" have become a staple of the pop lexicon.

I wonder what Che would think of the use of his image now?

rofl, i think he would love it.... *cough* :roll:

[Flagg]

Bingo!
I wonder how many "Che was bad" people would feel if their families were like the dirt poor 98% of South/Central Americans in the 1950's-1980's instead of hailing from priveledged suburban McMansions?

The same masses who were treated like poop by often brutals regimes that just as often had overt support from the US.


Learn from history BEFORE you try and judge it...

and again intolerant ask the intolerant to be tolerant, I was dirt poor kid of a father that belonged to worker/farmer class, we were dirt poor, we were treated like dirt by the soviets coming over for a visit, by the party members and the well born people, that I associate the image of Che with that somewhat unplesant time of my life somehow doesnt seem to register with some people,


My post was directed at those who shared an oversimplistic, uneducated, or inexperienced view on Che. If you felt my post was directed at you personally, it certainly was not my intent.

If you and your family feel Che was a direct and negative influence on your lives then you are certainly entitled to your beliefs.

Rather than just refuting "pro-Che" posters, why not post your thoughts directly?

Personally, I stick with my original statement. I think Che will be remembered as an important footnote in 50's-60's history.

Regardless of Che's beliefs and/or means it can't be argued that he rallied a quite substantial following(even if much of it was latent).

Charisma can only take a person so far, the fundamental belief system and/or promises made by Che struck a nerve with millions....."right" or "wrong" doesn't matter, effecting change does.

The best lesson I think I can take from the history of Che is that there will be other Che's.

To a substantial part of the world, Osama Bin Laden is "Che"

Eliminating Che DIDN'T solve anything......it turned a leader into a martyr...the same likely goes with OBL.

Massive underlying problems allow Che-like figures to emerge...fixing underlying issues will steal the thunder of future Ches.

[SS1983]

holly, whos b day we are going to celebrate next??

hope the fvcker burns in hell for eternity, all I got to say about this topic,
respect his deeds????? in this case Ill say respect is another form of fear
http://img221.echo.cx/img221/1028/communism0nm3bv.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)How many people got killed by Capitalism and Racism?Let us give them another chance! p-)


rofl

I talked with an American student here and he said that Swedens democracy was bad since we had so many parties so they didnt get a majority of the votes in an election while in US there was only two so one always had over 50%.

My reply was that they should do as China, only have one party so they would get 100% of the votes.
He never talked to me again after that. :roll:

and i really really hate the "OWNED" pictures, very disrespectful. Im pretty sure you would be pissed if someone started to post pictures of dead soldiers with the OWNED tag on them. :bash:
In fact,there is no 100%of the vote,but it is still very high,maybe 98%. :P

[M1A2U2]

Stupid people who don't know the difference between communism and totalitarianism ruin this site.

ok maybe this quote from che will help us understand why communism is so great.

"we continue to speak of the small farmer, the poor small farmer, and we never say that the farmer, no matter how poor and small he is, manifestly generates capitalism... It is very true that the campesino has been a pillar of the Revolution, that he was always in favor of it, that he fought in the Sierra, that he was one of the first to join the Rebel army. In spite of this, he must be ELIMINATED.
Comrade Che: July 11, 1964

Why does your peoples romantic vision consist of mass murder?

[M1A2U2]

SS 1983: According to most scholars captitalism has killed roughly 817,00 people. Sorry to disapoint you. Most were from colonial regimes like France. 817,000 doesnt compare to 110,000,000. you need to find a new argument.

[Turhapuro]

These are not Che pics, but looks like this thread is hijacked anyway and turned into capitalism vs. communism.

These are from DDR.

WC-paperhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Turhapuro/DDR/WCpaper.jpg

TV
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Turhapuro/DDR/TV.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Turhapuro/DDR/toothpaste.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Turhapuro/DDR/DSCN0051.jpg

Trabant: delivery time of a new car: upt to 12 years
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Turhapuro/DDR/Trabant.jpg

(sry about bad quality, I had to use digital camera to get pictures from book)

[Lokos]

M1AU2:

Source that 817,000 for me. For example, the Jacobin terror in France killed well over 200,000 people all by itself. The colonization of America by capitalist powers killed, directly or indirectly, well over fifteen million Native Americans. Wars between capitalist nations have been responsible for unimaginable numbers of dead.

Yet, I don't blame capitalism. I would blame both contextual circumstance and the people in charge. Blaming utopian ideologies and economic systems for the follies of man seems rather besides the point. At least, it does to me.

Lokos

[Lokos]

Turhapuro:

What are your pictures intended to prove? That Western countries are wealthier than most East European nations?

If so; I quite agree.

Lokos

[Turhapuro]

Lokos:
Here is for you 100% communistic WC-paper without evil market forces driving their production or quality:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Turhapuro/DDR/WC_rulla.jpg

Just give it another change...

I think that this WC-paper underlines the basic flaw of socialism. It is not about slacking workers (altough they ofcourse are part of the problem). Any nation can produce good wc-paper with or without slacking workers. WC-paper is cheap, its not high tech (paper machines are, but you don't need high tech paper machine if you are not fiercely competing in world markets).

Its all about markets and how they drive producers to meet demand. In socialism, there is not system for that so if you don't like the one wc-paper government provides, too bad for you. There is no alternative and even if is, it will not take over the markets because socialistic economy does not work that way.

Ofcourse yuo can always introduce markets to socialist economy and drop the planning, but then it would be strange mixture of socialism and market economy, far away from Marxist planned economy.

[Lokos]

So, your basic problem with Communism as an economic theory is that the USSR produced terrible toilet paper?

Lokos

[Turhapuro]

So, your basic problem with Communism as an economic theory is that the USSR produced terrible toilet paper?

Lokos
It was DDR.

The very basic problem with communism is that is does not have markets. Because that, all prices will be arbitrary and they don't represent resources used to make them. There is no losses or profit to guide investments. No profits means that there is no flow of capital goods and other resources to branches whre they are needed from branches where they are not needed. Addition to that, lack of competition makes room for inefficiency.

For example when cellural phone companies started to make huge profits, many different firms rushed to produce phones. Now when phone markets are saturated and some worst manufactures are making losses, resources are again diverted to another areas. Same time competition will keep companies lean and the worst companies will go bust and lose their market share. Without competition, without market pressure, result is WC-paper like that. And this is the very basic flaw of socialism/communism. The whole ideology is about getting rid of markets and now markets are the only way to produce and distribute enough information to run economy with efficiency (that might be changed in the future, but it is another matter).

[Lokos]

Your criticism, then, is entirely fair enough, and I'd like to see what an actual Communist could offer in retort.

Thanks for the input, Turhapuro.

Lokos

[Angrykirill]

These are not Che pics, but looks like this thread is hijacked anyway and turned into capitalism vs. communism.

These are from DDR.

WC-paperhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Turhapuro/DDR/WCpaper.jpg

TV
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Turhapuro/DDR/TV.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Turhapuro/DDR/toothpaste.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Turhapuro/DDR/DSCN0051.jpg

Trabant: delivery time of a new car: upt to 12 years
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Turhapuro/DDR/Trabant.jpg

(sry about bad quality, I had to use digital camera to get pictures from book)

:roll:

The stuff from any other country looked exactly the same way, or not much newer at the time that was taken (1960s - 70s)

[Raistlin]

So we should respect and praise those that stick to thier ideals no matter how much blood is on thier hands? Well then, Happy Birthday Hitler! Happy Birthday Stalin! Happy Birthday Pol Pot! :|
Heh, that's quite different. Those tyrans used pure power to kill for their own personal reasons. Che is more like US Chief of Staffs during Vietnam war. Potentially was responsible for less deaths too.

[M1A2U2]

Lokos, 817,000 is a number that takes into account only the 20th century to be fair to communism. the number 110 million people killed by communist regimes is soley of the 20th century and does not include wars. Therefore, your comments about wars between capitalist countries is irrelevant. Eitherway, Democracy is a better form of government. If you disagree please explain why.

PS no one has responded to my che quote. I wonder why.

[rhino]

My post was directed at those who shared an oversimplistic, uneducated, or inexperienced view on Che. If you felt my post was directed at you personally, it certainly was not my intent.

If you and your family feel Che was a direct and negative influence on your lives then you are certainly entitled to your beliefs.

Rather than just refuting "pro-Che" posters, why not post your thoughts directly?

Personally, I stick with my original statement. I think Che will be remembered as an important footnote in 50's-60's history.

Regardless of Che's beliefs and/or means it can't be argued that he rallied a quite substantial following(even if much of it was latent).

Charisma can only take a person so far, the fundamental belief system and/or promises made by Che struck a nerve with millions....."right" or "wrong" doesn't matter, effecting change does.

The best lesson I think I can take from the history of Che is that there will be other Che's.

To a substantial part of the world, Osama Bin Laden is "Che"

Eliminating Che DIDN'T solve anything......it turned a leader into a martyr...the same likely goes with OBL.

Massive underlying problems allow Che-like figures to emerge...fixing underlying issues will steal the thunder of future Ches.

we can really have a long discusion but lets not do that though? I see where you comming from, and I could counterpoint each of your points, but it will lead us nowhere, still Im eatching to say some things back (no I wont call you names and try to make you feel little) too bad this thread turned into political rumbling but what to expect when after some people voiced their pleasure in seeing one of the icons of socialism dead others try to point out the "holly" superiority of the system, that just proves what I always thought as long as there is more then One person left on Earth there will be as many opinions
cheers, hope we can move on, or move this thread into political section, where I never go ;)

[Dennis G]

Couple of comments for what its worth. First, there were two different guys called Che. One was a somewhat mentally twisted guy, probably similar to the mental twist that took over Vincent Van Gogh, (due to similar experiences) who had a fairly bizarre fantasy life, and the intensity of the insane sufficient to catch other people up in his madness. He was an embarrassment and severe PITA to Fidel. It has been suggested that his demise was accelerated by some well placed intelligence that came from Havana.

The other Che was a creation of the media, all over the world, assisted by Fidel, but driven basically by the media's love of creating news and newsworthy people out of the whole cloth. That is the Che most people think of, instead of the pathetic, looney tunes loser that he actually was. It was a very seductive image, as are many media creations. After all, that is the journalist's art, to create something attractive and intriguing out of garbage. Remember the Teflon Don?

Just recently probably because of this clowns birthday I’ve seen some kids wearing the Che t-shirt. Just remember the next time you see some fatuous pimply-faced scraggly-haired doofus in a Che T-shirt, consider for just a moment how long he/she/it would last in the highland jungles of Oriente Province. Be grateful that T-shirt wearer has the grace to advertise his/her/it's total loser status by wearing a T-shirt that announces it. Rot In Peace Che. Hasta la victoria ...my foot. Too bad what he died for didn't die with him.

[Lokos]

M1AU2:

Then your analogy is flawed. The 20th century has seen the maturation of the capitalist, democratic system. In the countries it dominates it has become tradition over the centuries. The 'Communist' regimes (I am still arguing that Communism has never existed in practical form, by the way - just because they - the regimes in question - labelled themselves as such does not mean that they actually met the criteria of being Communist states) in question were going through their 'birth pains'. Capitalism also went through its own birth pains, and proportionally can be said to have been responsible for similar numbers of dead.

Yet, I do not even take the 110 million figure as fact. Simply speaking, it is from the Black Book of Communism - and that is not exactly a piece of literature known for its historical accuracy and unbiased reporting of fact.

Regards,
Lokos

[innocent_bystander]

http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/rect-reagan.jpg

[SS1983]

Lokos, 817,000 is a number that takes into account only the 20th century to be fair to communism. the number 110 million people killed by communist regimes is soley of the 20th century and does not include wars. Therefore, your comments about wars between capitalist countries is irrelevant. Eitherway, Democracy is a better form of government. If you disagree please explain why.

PS no one has responded to my che quote. I wonder why.
It is funny,817000 is less than 110 million,so capitalist is better than communist?

The first communistic conutry USSR was built in 1917,but the first capitalistic country was built in 1792(France).It is not fair that you only count 20th century.

I also mentioned racism,do not forget it.

At last,the number 110 million is a suspectable number.It is not a adiaphorous number.

Lokos,your answers are great. :)

[stuntman]

Lokos, 817,000 is a number that takes into account only the 20th century to be fair to communism. the number 110 million people killed by communist regimes is soley of the 20th century and does not include wars. Therefore, your comments about wars between capitalist countries is irrelevant. Eitherway, Democracy is a better form of government. If you disagree please explain why.

PS no one has responded to my che quote. I wonder why.
It is funny,817000 is less than 110 million,so capitalist is better than communist?
Well to be honest this is not so bad logic. If you want to buy a car and you are down to just two models and the only difference is that one has a airbag and seatbelts and the death rate is out of 10 crashed only one person died and on the car with out airbags and belts out of 10- 8 died,would you let the same logic dictate that it doesn't matter because eventually you will die? Longwinded analogy but the point is valid!
The first communistic conutry USSR was built in 1917,but the first capitalistic country was built in 1792(France).It is not fair that you only count 20th century.
What about 1776 United States of America?
I also mentioned racism,do not forget it.
You mean how the white Russian hated other non white Russians? Or how people from England made war againts Welch, Scotts and Irishmen?

At last,the number 110 million is a suspectable number.It is not a adiaphorous number.
This is just to show the lesser of the two evils so it is relevant especially due to the facts that those numbers are based on how communist treat their own population.
Lokos,your answers are great. :)

[Seba23]

http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/rect-reagan.jpg

rofl rofl rofl

[littlefrench]

The first communistic conutry USSR was built in 1917,but the first capitalistic country was built in 1792(France).It is not fair that you only count 20th century.

A capitalistic country doesn't need to be a democracy. Just look at UK or Germany in the 19th century : they were capitalistic but not democratic. And more recently : look at China :roll:

[Seba23]

http://www.cheguevara.silken.art.pl/data/pict/revolution/cuba.jpg


http://www.cheguevara.silken.art.pl/data/pict/camilo/camilo4.jpg

http://www.cheguevara.silken.art.pl/data/pict/revolution/marsz.jpg

http://www.cheguevara.silken.art.pl/data/pict/revolution/na%20koniu2.jpg

http://www.cheguevara.silken.art.pl/data/pict/revolution/zwloki2.jpg

p-)
http://www.cheguevara.silken.art.pl/data/pict/posters/cheflag.gif

[SS1983]

The first communistic conutry USSR was built in 1917,but the first capitalistic country was built in 1792(France).It is not fair that you only count 20th century.

A capitalistic country doesn't need to be a democracy. Just look at UK or Germany in the 19th century : they were capitalistic but not democratic. And more recently : look at China :roll: rofl Yeah!You are right.

[SS1983]

The first communistic conutry USSR was built in 1917,but the first capitalistic country was built in 1792(France).It is not fair that you only count 20th century.
What about 1776 United States of America?
Sorry,but at that time,your country still had slave,I don't think a capitalistic country should have that.


I also mentioned racism,do not forget it.
You mean how the white Russian hated other non white Russians? Or how people from England made war againts Welch, Scotts and Irishmen?
And White man killed a lot of native Indians,death in slave trade...


This is just to show the lesser of the two evils so it is relevant especially due to the facts that those numbers are based on how communist treat their own population.
Oh,it is too bad to treat their own population in that way,but it is much more worth to treat the others in that way.Killing is killing,you can not sperate it from killing its "own" or "others".

[HooyahCQB]

The first communistic conutry USSR was built in 1917,but the first capitalistic country was built in 1792(France).It is not fair that you only count 20th century.

A capitalistic country doesn't need to be a democracy. Just look at UK or Germany in the 19th century : they were capitalistic but not democratic. And more recently : look at China :roll:

x2. Capitalism has more to do with the economy than the government.

[stuntman]

The first communistic conutry USSR was built in 1917,but the first capitalistic country was built in 1792(France).It is not fair that you only count 20th century.
What about 1776 United States of America?
Sorry,but at that time,your country still had slave,I don't think a capitalistic country should have that.
That has nothing to do with my point! I have news for you, every single nation had or still have some type of slavery!

I also mentioned racism,do not forget it.
You mean how the white Russian hated other non white Russians? Or how people from England made war againts Welch, Scotts and Irishmen?
And White man killed a lot of native Indians,death in slave trade...
Now you are responding vindictively. I suggest learning a little context before responding.

This is just to show the lesser of the two evils so it is relevant especially due to the facts that those numbers are based on how communist treat their own population.
Oh,it is too bad to treat their own population in that way,but it is much more worth to treat the others in that way.Killing is killing,you can not sperate it from killing its "own" or "others".
Wow you need to go back and understand why and how I responded to you. But you respond in a matter that has nothing to do with your initial points or my replies! Are you a idiot or is it that you have no point but to flame in the name of your parents failures (this means you!)? What is it dude!

WEMIA!

[IDFM203]

Christ, to all those people who say the communism doesn't work under any conditions just look at middle of the century Israel. Kibutz anyone???

Communism can also work on intellectual level I believe. Freedom of copyright.

But, heck, I'm going OT. This is about Che, not communismHmm last I checked most kibbutz’s are actually failing....besides, a kibbutz was on a miniscule level in the grand global scheme of things to actually prove anything, at least in my opinion, the concept on a whole is a failure to provide an advanced society, at least that’s my opinion.

P.S. My brother was just in a Kibbutz for 6 months and guess what, he had to pay to stay there (plus of course work there, so yes he has to pay to work :lol: ) and this was one of the "wealthier ones", go figure......

[dangerclose]

http://www.fotoajans.com/history/che_guevara/che_guevara_001.jpg

If he was commie, socialist or whatever he believed....he was a dedicated man


i suggest "guerilla warfare" by him. out of date, but the basics of it remain.

The Nazi SS were dedicated to what they believe. "He was a thug and murderer .. but he was dedicated."


oookay

[Jeremiah]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Turhapuro/DDR/WC_rulla.jpg


ouch what is that sand paper, now I no why communism sucks. :|

[M1A2U2]

110 million comes from RJ Rummel who won the Nobel Prize for his research on the matter. Sorry to burst your bubble. How come no one will comment on the quote I put up from Che.??

[SS1983]

110 million comes from RJ Rummel who won the Nobel Prize for his research on the matter. More details?Thanks for telling me that.

[lrrps]

He was an idealist. He was an insurgent because he fought against the US and therefore became the bad guy, but he believed he was doing good.

Everyone believes he's doing right until proved otherwise.

[Hawkeye]

110 million comes from RJ Rummel who won the Nobel Prize for his research on the matter. Sorry to burst your bubble. How come no one will comment on the quote I put up from Che.??

I guess we should all believe M1A2U2, since he was probably there.

[lrrps]

110 million comes from RJ Rummel who won the Nobel Prize for his research on the matter. Sorry to burst your bubble. How come no one will comment on the quote I put up from Che.??

I guess we should all believe M1A2U2, since he was probably there.

Do you really think that commies are cool?
Don't you ever wonder why people flee communist regimes?
Why don't you go live in north Korea and tell us about the good life you have there.

[Weasel]

110 million comes from RJ Rummel who won the Nobel Prize for his research on the matter. Sorry to burst your bubble. How come no one will comment on the quote I put up from Che.??

I guess we should all believe M1A2U2, since he was probably there.

As the left flank? rofl

[M1A2U2]

I think hawkeye is very immature. I had a PM arugment with him over communism and all he would say was like **** off etc. He never once presented a rational argument.

[1Cie GevGn]

You once presented the arguement you knew more then Shrek about SF because you served with the French on the left flank.

I think I'll forgive Hawkeye :hug:

[Nikitaras]

Stupid people who don't know the difference between communism and totalitarianism ruin this site.

ok maybe this quote from che will help us understand why communism is so great.

"we continue to speak of the small farmer, the poor small farmer, and we never say that the farmer, no matter how poor and small he is, manifestly generates capitalism... It is very true that the campesino has been a pillar of the Revolution, that he was always in favor of it, that he fought in the Sierra, that he was one of the first to join the Rebel army. In spite of this, he must be ELIMINATED.
Comrade Che: July 11, 1964

Why does your peoples romantic vision consist of mass murder?

Keeping the everyones politics aside the quote does not mean that Guevara advocated rounding up all the farmers and physiclly eliminating them, he was advocating agrarian reform ie, the socialization of the farming industry in Cuba.

[Raistlin]

^^^ true

And I'm not going to reply to all the people who still can't make difference between differents types of communism and between different kinds of ideological leaders.

[Ria]

I am on a mission to research Che. I think I've only heard one objective view about him. So I'm going to try and come up with my own opinion, although it won't be too easy. I definitely couldn't make one now, with having such little knowledge of the whole situation - Latin American politics, Communism, Che's life, etc. But he interests me.

but um, happy belated birthday Che :P

[M1A2U2]

Stupid people who don't know the difference between communism and totalitarianism ruin this site.

ok maybe this quote from che will help us understand why communism is so great.

"we continue to speak of the small farmer, the poor small farmer, and we never say that the farmer, no matter how poor and small he is, manifestly generates capitalism... It is very true that the campesino has been a pillar of the Revolution, that he was always in favor of it, that he fought in the Sierra, that he was one of the first to join the Rebel army. In spite of this, he must be ELIMINATED.
Comrade Che: July 11, 1964

Why does your peoples romantic vision consist of mass murder?

Keeping the everyones politics aside the quote does not mean that Guevara advocated rounding up all the farmers and physiclly eliminating them, he was advocating agrarian reform ie, the socialization of the farming industry in Cuba.

ok then please tell me how you eliminate someone without eliminating them?

[Kilgor]

I really love the pitful attempts to justify communism. Everytime there has been a revolution promising equality, justice and freedom its ended up the same. Police states, with gulags and perks for the political elites.

Orwell's / Blairs Animal farm is the perfect reflection on communism. Every communist state has ended up a human rights ****hole, with a very small percentage living with excess.

Soviet union, North korea, vietnam, cuba, Eastern Europe, Laos. All with appauling human rights, no freedom of speech, gulags, purges, state controlled famines, do I need to go on ?

And over and over again, look at the people defending communism. They never lived in those countries, or only for a very short time as children. Most people who did cannot stand communism and know its harsh realities.

Communism is for white middle class angst ridden teens.

[lrrps]

I really love the pitful attempts to justify communism. Everytime there has been a revolution promising equality, justice and freedom its ended up the same. Police states, with gulags and perks for the political elites.

Orwell's / Blairs Animal farm is the perfect reflection on communism. Every communist state has ended up a human rights ****hole, with a very small percentage living with excess.

Soviet union, North korea, vietnam, cuba, Eastern Europe, Laos. All with appauling human rights, no freedom of speech, gulags, purges, state controlled famines, do I need to go on ?

And over and over again, look at the people defending communism. They never lived in those countries, or only for a very short time as children. Most people who did cannot stand communism and know its harsh realities.

Communism is for white middle class angst ridden teens.

Completely agree with you.
As I said before, to all those who think communism is a paradise, go live in north Korea, Cuba, Kampuchia, China and you'll see how much you'll miss freedom.
Most of the people here live in a free world, they don't know how lucky they are, I hope they or their country will never fall under a communist regime.
I've been through it and I'm so happy to be out.
And there's absolutely no difference between communism and totalitarism.
I have lived 4 years in a communist country and I know what I'm talking about.

You won't make me change my mind, ever!!!!!!!!!!

[<Gypsum Fantastic>]

I really love the pitful attempts to justify communism. Everytime there has been a revolution promising equality, justice and freedom its ended up the same. Police states, with gulags and perks for the political elites.

Orwell's / Blairs Animal farm is the perfect reflection on communism. Every communist state has ended up a human rights ****hole, with a very small percentage living with excess.

Soviet union, North korea, vietnam, cuba, Eastern Europe, Laos. All with appauling human rights, no freedom of speech, gulags, purges, state controlled famines, do I need to go on ?

And over and over again, look at the people defending communism. They never lived in those countries, or only for a very short time as children. Most people who did cannot stand communism and know its harsh realities.

Communism is for white middle class angst ridden teens.

Completely agree with you.
As I said before, to all those who think communism is a paradise, go live in north Korea, Cuba, Kampuchia, China and you'll see how much you'll miss freedom.
Most of the people here live in a free world, they don't know how lucky they are, I hope they or their country will never fall under a communist regime.
I've been through it and I'm so happy to be out.
And there's absolutely no difference between communism and totalitarism.
I have lived 4 years in a communist country and I know what I'm talking about.

You won't make me change my mind, ever!!!!!!!!!!

Although to be fair, most countries that are pushed to take up communism, are in such a ****ty economic state in the first place. For example look at Russia before, during and after communism. Their most prosperous time was under communism. I don't think that economicaly communism is that bad.

I think the most important arguement against communism is that it's system is set up in such a way that it is liable to dictatorship and totalitarianism.

It's a system supposedly without a hierarchy but with a leader. Therefore, by definition of everybody but the leader being equal, the leader is infinitely superior. Whereas a capitalist system has varying degrees of leadership, which means the head of the system has limited/dispersed powers.

Communism is also a system based on everybody having the same shared interests. Like a house of cards, if everyone supports, and works towards, the same goals it is theoreticallya mutually beneficial system. However, it just takes one person to be corrupted for the house to collapse and the whole communist system to go into chaos. As such communist governments have to control dissent in an extreme manner to try and ensure stability of its house of cards. This is Totalitarianism in it's pure form. Total control of people for the sole benefit of the state.

I agree that communism in it's truist form has yet to be seen. However, I blieve that this is down to the very nature of communism being so easily corrupted. Therefore it is very unlikely to ever work, and will remain simply an ideology.

[lrrps]

I really love the pitful attempts to justify communism. Everytime there has been a revolution promising equality, justice and freedom its ended up the same. Police states, with gulags and perks for the political elites.

Orwell's / Blairs Animal farm is the perfect reflection on communism. Every communist state has ended up a human rights ****hole, with a very small percentage living with excess.

Soviet union, North korea, vietnam, cuba, Eastern Europe, Laos. All with appauling human rights, no freedom of speech, gulags, purges, state controlled famines, do I need to go on ?

And over and over again, look at the people defending communism. They never lived in those countries, or only for a very short time as children. Most people who did cannot stand communism and know its harsh realities.

Communism is for white middle class angst ridden teens.

Completely agree with you.
As I said before, to all those who think communism is a paradise, go live in north Korea, Cuba, Kampuchia, China and you'll see how much you'll miss freedom.
Most of the people here live in a free world, they don't know how lucky they are, I hope they or their country will never fall under a communist regime.
I've been through it and I'm so happy to be out.
And there's absolutely no difference between communism and totalitarism.
I have lived 4 years in a communist country and I know what I'm talking about.

You won't make me change my mind, ever!!!!!!!!!!

Although to be fair, most countries that are pushed to take up communism, are in such a ****ty economic state in the first place. For example look at Russia before, during and after communism. Their most prosperous time was under communism. I don't think that economicaly communism is that bad.

I think the most important arguement against communism is that it's system is set up in such a way that it is liable to dictatorship and totalitarianism.

It's a system supposedly without a hierarchy but with a leader. Therefore, by definition of everybody but the leader being equal, the leader is infinitely superior. Whereas a capitalist system has varying degrees of leadership, which means the head of the system has limited/dispersed powers.

Communism is also a system based on everybody having the same shared interests. Like a house of cards, if everyone supports, and works towards, the same goals it is theoreticallya mutually beneficial system. However, it just takes one person to be corrupted for the house to collapse and the whole communist system to go into chaos. As such communist governments have to control dissent in an extreme manner to try and ensure stability of its house of cards. This is Totalitarianism in it's pure form. Total control of people for the sole benefit of the state.

I agree that communism in it's truist form has yet to be seen. However, I blieve that this is down to the very nature of communism being so easily corrupted. Therefore it is very unlikely to ever work, and will remain simply an ideology.

And man.

Also note that once in power, a communist regime will not tolerate any other party, it's a totalitary regime.
Look at european countries like France or Italy, they have communist parties in their government but if one day the communist party takes power, they will dissolve the other parties and bye bye freedom. woot

[<Gypsum Fantastic>]

I really love the pitful attempts to justify communism. Everytime there has been a revolution promising equality, justice and freedom its ended up the same. Police states, with gulags and perks for the political elites.

Orwell's / Blairs Animal farm is the perfect reflection on communism. Every communist state has ended up a human rights ****hole, with a very small percentage living with excess.

Soviet union, North korea, vietnam, cuba, Eastern Europe, Laos. All with appauling human rights, no freedom of speech, gulags, purges, state controlled famines, do I need to go on ?

And over and over again, look at the people defending communism. They never lived in those countries, or only for a very short time as children. Most people who did cannot stand communism and know its harsh realities.

Communism is for white middle class angst ridden teens.

Completely agree with you.
As I said before, to all those who think communism is a paradise, go live in north Korea, Cuba, Kampuchia, China and you'll see how much you'll miss freedom.
Most of the people here live in a free world, they don't know how lucky they are, I hope they or their country will never fall under a communist regime.
I've been through it and I'm so happy to be out.
And there's absolutely no difference between communism and totalitarism.
I have lived 4 years in a communist country and I know what I'm talking about.

You won't make me change my mind, ever!!!!!!!!!!

Although to be fair, most countries that are pushed to take up communism, are in such a ****ty economic state in the first place. For example look at Russia before, during and after communism. Their most prosperous time was under communism. I don't think that economicaly communism is that bad.

I think the most important arguement against communism is that it's system is set up in such a way that it is liable to dictatorship and totalitarianism.

It's a system supposedly without a hierarchy but with a leader. Therefore, by definition of everybody but the leader being equal, the leader is infinitely superior. Whereas a capitalist system has varying degrees of leadership, which means the head of the system has limited/dispersed powers.

Communism is also a system based on everybody having the same shared interests. Like a house of cards, if everyone supports, and works towards, the same goals it is theoreticallya mutually beneficial system. However, it just takes one person to be corrupted for the house to collapse and the whole communist system to go into chaos. As such communist governments have to control dissent in an extreme manner to try and ensure stability of its house of cards. This is Totalitarianism in it's pure form. Total control of people for the sole benefit of the state.

I agree that communism in it's truist form has yet to be seen. However, I blieve that this is down to the very nature of communism being so easily corrupted. Therefore it is very unlikely to ever work, and will remain simply an ideology.

And man.

Also note that once in power, a communist regime will not tolerate any other party, it's a totalitary regime.
Look at european countries like France or Italy, they have communist parties in their government but if one day the communist party takes power, they will dissolve the other parties and bye bye freedom. woot

True

As I said above, other parties would make the communist house of cards too unstable.

I believe that this is the difference between Communism and Socialism. Socialism can co-exist in multi lateral government with the good principles of Communism but at the same time a non-extremist agenda. And I believe Socailsim is essential in many countries to counteract Fascism and to limit the powers of capitalism.

[Raistlin]

ok then please tell me how you eliminate someone without eliminating them?
Figurative speach anyone?

[Hawkeye]

I think hawkeye is very immature. I had a PM arugment with him over communism and all he would say was like f*** off etc. He never once presented a rational argument.

No, i'll argue with anyone serious, someone that deserves my respect.
Maybe polite or something? It might just help. (+ , i'll be honest, my English isn't quite good enough to argue at a level like that.)

@lrrps, you talk about North-Korea as it is the only form of communism.
N-Korea is communism, but communism isn't N-Korea or Stalin or China or whatever. Alot of people forget that last sentence.
Anyways, my stepdad is president of the Flemish Communist Party (he's been in the paper more than once) and pretty soon he'll be on Terzake (Canvas, i'll post the date for Belgians and Dutchies who want to watch)

[lrrps]

I think hawkeye is very immature. I had a PM arugment with him over communism and all he would say was like f*** off etc. He never once presented a rational argument.

No, i'll argue with anyone serious, someone that deserves my respect.
Maybe polite or something? It might just help. (+ , i'll be honest, my English isn't quite good enough to argue at a level like that.)
@lrrps, you talk about North-Korea as it is the only form of communism.
N-Korea is communism, but communism isn't N-Korea or Stalin or China or whatever. Alot of people forget that last sentence.
Anyways, my stepdad is president of the Flemish Communist Party (he's been in the paper more than once) and pretty soon he'll be on Terzake (Canvas, i'll post the date for Belgians and Dutchies who want to watch)

Hawkeye,

You may speak french if you wish, I'm fluent in that language too.
Hope it's not against this forum's policy to speak a language other than english.
:D

[M1A2U2]

Again hawkeye you fail to make a rational argument.

[Hawkeye]

lrrps I'm Flemish, i speak less French than English
But thank you for being open for a real discussion, unlike other people

BTW, Politcal Secretary of Flemish Communist Party on Terzake now, Canvas...

[IMARA]

emm... it´s not very important, but just you to know, my granny gave him milk, but not from a caw, from another animal that I don´t know how to say it in english, because when he was a child, he was very thin and ate few. So he wasn´t very strong, and his familie told my granny to gave him the best milk she had (they were neighbours in the countryside)

[lrrps]

emm... it´s not very important, but just you to know, my granny gave him milk, but not from a caw, from another animal that I don´t know how to say it in english, because when he was a child, he was very thin and ate few. So he wasn´t very strong, and his familie told my granny to gave him the best milk she had (they were neighbours in the countryside)

WTF are you talking about??
Who is HE?

[DANJANOU]

emm... it´s not very important, but just you to know, my granny gave him milk, but not from a caw, from another animal that I don´t know how to say it in english, because when he was a child, he was very thin and ate few. So he wasn´t very strong, and his familie told my granny to gave him the best milk she had (they were neighbours in the countryside)

WTF are you talking about??
Who is HE?

Well considering IMARA is from Argentina I would presume HE is Che. Basically he's saying his Grandmother knew Che's family.

[Digital Marine]

Yes and my grandad gave brestfeeding to Napoleon Bonaparte

[IMARA]

Yes and my grandad gave brestfeeding to Napoleon Bonaparte

Hey, it´s truth, my grandmother knew him, they were neighbours. They lived in a small rural tawn called Baradero in the Buenos Aires province

[lrrps]

emm... it´s not very important, but just you to know, my granny gave him milk, but not from a caw, from another animal that I don´t know how to say it in english, because when he was a child, he was very thin and ate few. So he wasn´t very strong, and his familie told my granny to gave him the best milk she had (they were neighbours in the countryside)

WTF are you talking about??
Who is HE?

Well considering IMARA is from Argentina I would presume HE is Che. Basically he's saying his Grandmother knew Che's family.

OK, got it

[lrrps]

Yes and my grandad gave brestfeeding to Napoleon Bonaparte

Is your grand dad a tran****** ? :D

[IMARA]

:lol:

[DANJANOU]

I tried to stay out of this one honest (aside form the little translation/interpretation post earlier).

Some interesting debate and ideas here once you sift through the typical posing and juvenile antics that seem all too prevalent here of late. Also some amusing misrepresentations too. In other words a typical thread her of late.

Ok a little history/poli sci lesson for those interesrted. For those not, go check out the hot babes in uniform thread.

Ernesto "Che" Gueverra was an asthmatic spoiled little rich boy from an upper middle class Argentine family and casual silver spoon socialist who may or may not have had some "political/spiritual" awakening during his motorcycle sojourn across most of South America as documented in his book (the movie version ain't too bad BTW)

In 1956 He was in Guatemala where after observing first hand the US CIA run counter coup in that country against Socialist President Arbenz his anti America ideas/stance was confirmed. Here he met Fidel Castro in a cheap hostel in Guatemala City (Pension Meza, great place BTW and yeah you can rent Che’s room). Castro was plotting his return to Cuba after the failed July 26th 1953 attempt to overthrow the Batista regime at Moncada.

BTW who ever posted earlier that this was the Sergeants Revolution or revolt is incorrect. That name refers to the earlier Cuban revolution that toppled the then Dictator President Machado. It was organized by idealist young Cuban Army officers and Senior NCOs including then Sgt Batista, (see a pattern here folks).

Guevara signed on as the medical officer in Castro's little army and Sailed with him, brother Raoul and some 79 other revolutions on the Granma a leaky fishing boat. Soon after landing in orient, they were attacked by Batista’s troops and only 15 survived, including the Castro brothers and Che.

Castro persevered and rebuilt his guerrilla army. Eventually allying himself with other anti Batista elements in Cuba he gained control over most of the Sierra Escambrays. Somewhere along the way Ernesto went from medical officer to combat commander rising to Commandante (Major) and given command of his own column (company). He was also Castro’s personal enforcer in the mountains executing traitors and informants

Guevara and his men were despatched to the Escambray Mountains in Central Cuba. Here he operated against the Batista forces alongside the columns commanded by Camillo Cienfuegos and Morgan the American Soldier of Fortune among others. Guevara’s military skills were often called into question.

He had no formal training and was brash and impulsive. Morgan in interviews after the revolution called him incompetent and noted he and his men actually had to rescue Che. As all accounts of the Revolution were written after Castro came to power, none however touch on this.

There is no doubting Che’s personal bravery though, his attack against an armoured train at Santa Clara late in 1958 being a prime example. It takes stones to command a bulldozer in the middle of a fire fight.

On December 31st, 1958 Batista fled Cuba. The next day Castro marched in Santiago de Cuba the country’s second largest city and proclaimed the revolution over. Within a week he was in Havana. Catro then set about consolidating power.

As noted earlier not all of the forces fighting against Batista were in Castro’s camp. A series of purges though ensured that only those loyal to him survived. By the end of all the major revolutionary leaders to survive the fighting only Fidel Castro, Raoul Castro and Che Guevara were left alive. Morgan was executed supposedly by Castro personally.

Che’s first appointment in the new regime was as military commander of the prison in the fortress of La Cabana in Havana. Here it is estimated he was responsible for the interrogation, torture and execution of between 150 and 500 persons, some from the previous regime, many others whose only crime was that Castro and the new regime saw them as a threat.

After this Guevara who was granted honorary Cuban citizenship had severl senior government posts including Minister responsible for agrarian reform and then minister of Labour.

1964 Guevara went to Africa. There is some who state that he had a falling out with Castro on the way things were going in Cuba. Others suggest Castro asked or ordered him to the Congo to spread the revolution against the west there.

The implication that Che was still in favour with Castro is supported by the fact that he had the full use of Cuban embassies in the region. In addition a contingent of Afro Cuban soldiers all veterans of the fighting in Oriente joined him. Irregardless Guevara and his insurgents failed in their attempt. The ANC (Armee National Congo, mainly the white mercenary units commanded by Col Mike Hoare made short work of the Simbas and their Cuban advisors.

Guevera returned to Cuba in 1965, but left again shortly after. For two years his whereabouts were subject to speculation.

He resurfaced in Boliva where it seemed he was again trying to start a revolution. On October 8, 1967 he was wounded and captured by Bolivan Army Rangers. Shortly after he was executed. There is again some debate as to how he died and who killed him. Some argue that as Bolivian unit was trained by the US Special Forces that they killed Che and then left allowing the Bolivians to pose for the famous pictures and get the credit. Others suggest the “Bolivians” were either anti Castro Cuban exiles in the pay of the US and/or Argentine troops either group having more than enough reason to kill Che.

His remains incidentally were exhumed and returned to Cuba in 1997 and buried with full military honours. One hell of a party IIRC.

Many argue that Castro sent Guvera first to Africa and then to South America and set him up to fail. Che’s personal cult of popularity was as great as that of Castro’s and anyone who has studied him becomes aware he tolerates no rivals.

In the 1980’s he had the Angola hero Col Ochos executed after a show trila in which he was accused of dealing with the Colombian Cartels. Ochos was a potential rival to Castro, and the fact that the Cubans were dealing with the Cartels to gain hard currency. Ochos was set up with falsified evidence and Castro killed two birds with one stone.

It’s highly likely that the same thing happened two decades earlier. Che was better a dead martyr to the cause, than a live potential rival.

The cult of already starting really took off after his death. In Cuba the youth were taught to become more like Che the “perfect socialist new man.” Anyone who has been to Cuba will have seen the posters of his likeness plastered literally all over the country. Castro is smart, rather than use himself he uses Che and long dead heroes from the 19th century like Jose Marti to exhort the populace to greater efforts and since the onset of the “Special Period” to accept greater sacrifices.

For the faithful lining up in the ever increasing lines for the ever decreasing rations at the “Socialism or Death Bakery in Havana (and that really is the name of the place) it is for Che that they accept their sacrifices. In his mansion, old Fidel must be laughing himself silly.

Who was Ernesto Che Guevera? He was a lot of things. Brave yes. Visionary probably. Egocentric, most definitely. A cult figure/pop icon for a generation of the disenfrachised of at least thsaoe that perceived themsleves as such, yup. A murder yeah that too.

BTW most of this is from memory, as I do have an interest and hadve researched the man and the times. That's followed up by five minutes of double checking on Google. I therefore apologise for not posting crap out of my ass like many do. :roll:

[Hawkeye]

Yes and my grandad gave brestfeeding to Napoleon Bonaparte

Is your grand dad a tran****** ? :D

Runs in the family ;)