Serb beheading picture published (BBC)

[fantassin]

Serb beheading picture published

A Serb nationalist newspaper has published a picture of a Bosnian Muslim soldier beheading a Serb prisoner.

The image was taken from a private video shot in the 1990s during the war.

The international war crimes tribunal in The Hague has denied the paper's claims that the court refused to show the film because of its brutality.

The publication comes a week after Serbian TV broadcast a video of Serb paramilitaries executing Muslim prisoners in Srebrenica 10 years ago.


More at:



Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/europe/4095712.stm

Published: 2005/06/15 13:14:32 GMT

© BBC MMV

[Lokos]

Hmm. Interesting. It's as if the media are opting to balance out the earlier video to some degree.

Media manipulation of mass perception is a very interesting thing.

Lokos

[Bia]

The publication comes a week after Serbian TV broadcast a video of Serb paramilitaries executing Muslim prisoners in Srebrenica 10 years ago.
I have that video on my PC....it's very graphic and surreal.
They execute all but two men. Then make the two carry the bodies behind a barn...then execute those two too.
Also...it's brutal as they dont do clean executions to the head....they spray them in the back with short automatic bursts.

[Ichhabe]

The publication comes a week after Serbian TV broadcast a video of Serb paramilitaries executing Muslim prisoners in Srebrenica 10 years ago.
I have that video on my PC....it's very graphic and surreal.
They execute all but two men. Then make the two carry the bodies behind a barn...then execute those two too.
Also...it's brutal as they dont do clean executions to the head....they spray them in the back with short automatic bursts.

That is beyond cruelty, humanity and God knows what. Disgusting cowards.

(...and I wont hear; but but... they did it too, and more.)

[achilles]

Interesting how the western propaganda projected the Serbs as the only ruthless monsters the Balcans have ever seen.

[BigBaribal]

Here's a pic of a kosovar commandant with his son having in his hands heads of captured serbs (I cut the photo because of the graphic content and by respect for the victims). The guy is perfecty recognizable, but I don't think he is actively researched by the services of Carla del Ponte.

http://img140.echo.cx/img140/8461/44kladecapit7kr.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

[Ichhabe]

In Kosovo I saw something that amazed and flabbergasted me. Children bought bubble gum with stickers inside for collection. Among the different series of NATO-soldiers and equipment they also had a series of dead Serbs. I asked the shop-keeper why the hell this was made. Only got a stupid smile in return.

[zealot]

http://img140.echo.cx/img140/8461/44kladecapit7kr.jpg

^ NATO sponsored 'freedom fighters', it makes me want to puke ...

[BigBaribal]

Btw, is there a sociological explication for the beheading practice, accepting the fact that such an horrible act could be rationalized?

If I were in a war situation and obliged to execute somone (just an hypothesis, I'm against death sentence), I would do it in a clean way, to say the truth like I saw it in the movies, against a wall, something on the eyes, last cigarette, without torture, a priest of the needed religion if possible, and then respect for the body with a proper burial. And of course without any kind of joy or perverted pleasure.

I simply don't understand the need some guys have to act like mad animals.

[Herrmannek]

In Kosovo I saw something that amazed and flabbergasted me. Children bought bubble gum with stickers inside for collection. Among the different series of NATO-soldiers and equipment they also had a series of dead Serbs. I asked the shop-keeper why the hell this was made. Only got a stupid smile in return.
:cantbeli:

On the side note I never doubted both Serbs and Kosovars aren't saints... NATO and UE should learn not to take sides at such cases and beat **** out of the everyone who tries to stir **** after "coalition" engagegs in the conflict...

[BigBaribal]

http://img140.echo.cx/img140/8461/44kladecapit7kr.jpg

^ NATO sponsored 'freedom fighters', it makes me want to puke ...


You're so right:

http://img11.echo.cx/img11/6626/brotherhood4db.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://img11.echo.cx/img11/5153/koss050ms.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)







But to be honest, very bad things happened too on the other side.

In fact, what disgusts me really here is the obvious double standard against the Serbs and I say that without having sympathy for Milosevic and co. It looks to me that the USA had some kind of strange strategical interest of putting a possible radical muslim state within the heart of Europe (and Izedbegovic was a real radical, as a former guy of the SS handschar division).

What a strange world, Madeleine Albright who hated the serbs because of WWII helping a muslim supremacist of the nazi kind.

[achilles]

In Kosovo I saw something that amazed and flabbergasted me. Children bought bubble gum with stickers inside for collection. Among the different series of NATO-soldiers and equipment they also had a series of dead Serbs. I asked the shop-keeper why the hell this was made. Only got a stupid smile in return.

That was stomach upsetting. I speculate that if those teethless douchebags were armed better than the Serbs, there wouldnt be any Serbians left today. The Serbians butchered a lot of people as well, but the whole situation makes me wonder under what criteria does NATO pick its allies.

[BigBaribal]

In Kosovo I saw something that amazed and flabbergasted me. Children bought bubble gum with stickers inside for collection. Among the different series of NATO-soldiers and equipment they also had a series of dead Serbs. I asked the shop-keeper why the hell this was made. Only got a stupid smile in return.

That was stomach upsetting. I speculate that if those teethless douchebags were armed better than the Serbs, there wouldnt be any Serbians left today. The Serbians butchered a lot of people as well, but the whole situation makes me wonder under what criteria does NATO pick its allies.


I think the USA are playing this game, as the masters of division they are.

As an example, a quote of General Clark to CNN and ******* in February 1999:



There is no place in modern Europe for ethnically pure states. That's a 19th century idea and we are trying to transition into the 21st century, and we are going to do it with multi-ethnic states. Our goal is that after this year, it will no longer be possible for those who support ethnically separate communities to believe that they can succeed.


For me, it's so obvious that multicult areas are much more malable according to the interest of the One World rulers. If a specific ethnically-united people is forced to fade in a multicult guetto, the diverse individuals staying after the process will no more have this united spirit common only to the real peoples to fight back.

Because as it's said in Spanish, "pueblo , unido jamàs sera vencido !"

[RGRBOX]

We should havr stayed out of this war... it has only done worse...in years to come, the war will return in this region... Although I don't condone what was done by either side... I would prefer to back a western country then a radical islamic people... the Kosvars have done nothing but cause trouble since this war has ended... here in Switzerland, there's always some kind of trouble from them... it has gotten to the point were you have to becareful which park you take your family... they crowd in and if you deside to picnic in a spot where they happened to have picniced the month before, they cause all kinds of ****...

[BigBaribal]

Btw, here an article in French but very interesting in which Bernard Kouchner speaks of the hoaxes of this war:

http://www.legrandsoir.info/article.php3?id_article=2154


Le co-auteur d'un des plus gros médiamensonges des années 90 vient d'avouer. Instructif pour l'avenir, car les trucs de manipulation sont toujours les mêmes...

Flash-back. Eté 92, guerre en Bosnie. Bernard Kouchner et ses « Médecins du monde » diffusent dans la presse et sur les murs de Paris une pub, frappante et coûteuse. La photo - montage présente des « prisonniers » d'un camp serbe en Bosnie. Derrière des barbelés. Kouchner y accole l'image d'un mirador d'Auschwitz. Son texte accuse les Serbes d' « exécutions en masse ».

Info ou intox ? Intox, reconnaît Kouchner douze ans plus tard. Son récent livre autopublicitaire, Les guerriers de la paix, relate une entrevue avec Izetbegovic (le dirigeant nationaliste musulman au pouvoir à l'époque à Sarajevo), sur son lit de mort :

- Kouchner : C'étaient d'horribles lieux, mais on n'y exterminait pas systématiquement. Le saviez-vous ?
- Izetbegovic : Oui. L'affirmation était fausse. Il n'y avait pas de camp d'extermination quelle que fût l'horreur des lieux. Je pensais que mes révélations pourraient précipiter les bombardements.

Ce médiamensonge a effectivement fait basculer l'opinion vers le soutien aux bombardements. Toute la presse occidentale l'avait diffusé massivement Mais le récent démenti a été passé sous silence. Le public ne peut savoir qu'il a été roulé.


The joint author of one of the largest médiamensonges of the Nineties has just acknowledged. Instructive for the future, because the tricks of handling are always the same ones... Flash-back. Summer 92, war in Bosnia. Bernard Kouchner and his "Doctors of the world" diffuse in the press and on the walls of Paris an advertizing, striking and expensive. The photograph - assembly introduces "prisoners" of a Serb camp in Bosnia. Behind barbed wires. Kouchner joins there the image of a watchtower of Auschwitz. Its text shows Serb "mass executions". Information or intox? Intox, recognizes Kouchner later twelve years. Its recent book autopublicitaire, the warriors of peace, reports an interview with Izetbegovic (the Moslem nationalist leader with the capacity at the time in Sarajevo), on its bed of dead: - Kouchner: They was horrible places, but one did not exterminate there systematically. Did you know? - Izetbegovic: Yes. The assertion was false. There was no death camp whatever was the horror of the places. I thought that my revelations could precipitate the bombardments. This médiamensonge actually made rock the opinion towards the support for the bombardments. All the Western press had diffused it massively But recent denial was overlooked. The public cannot know that it was rolled.

[BigBaribal]

We should havr stayed out of this war... it has only done worse...in years to come, the war will return in this region... Although I don't condone what was done by either side... I would prefer to back a western country then a radical islamic people... the Kosvars have done nothing but cause trouble since this war has ended... here in Switzerland, there's always some kind of trouble from them... it has gotten to the point were you have to becareful which park you take your family... they crowd in and if you deside to picnic in a spot where they happened to have picniced the month before, they cause all kinds of ****...

A little bit off-topic, but an article in a Swiss mainstream hebdo about the young kosovors rioters in Wallis state:

http://img112.echo.cx/img112/7034/050106prilbalkanique3qz.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)


Btw, we have no problem with the few serbs, croats or slovens in Wallis.

[zealot]

Serbs did lots of bad things (mass executions etc). It's the fact.
But decapitating people is not their modus operand I. Other occasion where i recall seeing someone posing with decapitated heads during Balkan conflicts, was muslim fundamentalists in Bosnia posing with heads of Serb soldiers ...

Beheadings, like the one above, and posing for the picture, reek of Al-Qaida, and that is what bothers me, that NATO sided with these sad excuses for human beings...

[Frank Discussion]

A number (not enough) of ranking UCK commanders have been indicted by the ICTY. Given recent events there, I would say more indictments are forthcoming. Chances are they, like most others, will remain sealed.

[achilles]

Serbs did lots of bad things (mass executions etc). It's the fact.
But decapitating people is not their modus operand I. Other occasion where i recall seeing someone posing with decapitated heads during Balkan conflicts, was muslim fundamentalists in Bosnia posing with heads of Serb soldiers ...

Beheadings, like the one above, and posing for the picture, reek of Al-Qaida, and that is what bothers me, that NATO sided with these sad excuses for human beings...

NATO, i.e. USA sides with those who can be more easily manipulated. Go tell the Serbs to fight an American war.... ;)

[BigBaribal]

It looks that some people have less mental bareers to bestiality.

I would have a lot of trouble of simply shooting on somebody in a war, but I know I would never be able to cut the head even of an hated enemy.

To say the truth, it's an identity matter, because these implicitely ritual behedings are not "occidental".

http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/06/jihad-is-only-inner-struggle.html


Via En dansker i Sverige and Uriasposten, two of my favorite Scandinavian blogs. En dansker i Sverige (A Dane in Sweden) was writing about a high school teacher in Malmö, Sweden, who discovered that about a dozen Arab students were laughing and shouting "Allahu Akbar!" while watching a DVD of infidel hostages being beheaded in Iraq. The headmaster didn't think the incident was such a big deal.

[BigBaribal]

Serbs did lots of bad things (mass executions etc). It's the fact.
But decapitating people is not their modus operand I. Other occasion where i recall seeing someone posing with decapitated heads during Balkan conflicts, was muslim fundamentalists in Bosnia posing with heads of Serb soldiers ...

Beheadings, like the one above, and posing for the picture, reek of Al-Qaida, and that is what bothers me, that NATO sided with these sad excuses for human beings...

NATO, i.e. USA sides with those who can be more easily manipulated. Go tell the Serbs to fight an American war.... ;)

X2, spot on!

On a more large strategic way, USA won't probably look with pleasure good and closer relationships (what I do hope) between Western and Oriental Europe. And the war against Serbia was a perfect tool to divide Western Europe from our orthodox neighbours.

[Frank Discussion]

^ NATO sponsored 'freedom fighters', it makes me want to puke ...

I agree, the hypocrisy is astounding. It seems the concept of command responsibility is only applicable to Serbia, where Milosevic and senior VJ and VRS commanders are held accountable for the actions of their troops.

Given the recent discovery of mass graves containing victims of UCK crimes,
I hope the indictments of both Thaci and Ceku are on the horizon.

[RGRBOX]

^ NATO sponsored 'freedom fighters', it makes me want to puke ...

I agree, the hypocrisy is astounding. It seems the concept of command responsibility is only applicable to Serbia, where Milosevic and senior VJ and VRS commanders are held accountable for the actions of their troops.

Given the recent discovery of mass graves containing victims of UCK crimes,
I hope the indictments of both Thaci and Ceku are on the horizon.

x2

[)I(EHbKA.]

It seems that beheadings are performed by muslims only, the chechens, in Iraq, now this, what's with them and beheadings? I doubt that any western european soldiers would do such a thing, nor would Americans

[Frank Discussion]

It seems that beheadings are performed by muslims only, the chechens, in Iraq, now this, what's with them and beheadings? I doubt that any western european soldiers would do such a thing, nor would Americans

Beheading is confined solely to several Islamic nations, and is mentioned several times in the Koran. It is widely practiced in such enlightened nations (sarcasm on) as Saudi Arabia, where 45 men and 2 women were beheaded in 2002 and a further 52 men and 1 woman in 2003.

(begin quote)



Quranic verses that dictate beheading Kaffirs:

5:33-“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution (by beheading), or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;”

8:12- “I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.”

47:4- “Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), strike off their heads; at length; then when you have made wide Slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives”: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.”

(end quote) excerpted from: http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/SKM40715.htm

[Ayura]

I'll make bold some of the words in the verses just to make things clearer:



5:33-“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution (by beheading), or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;”


So it's talking about those who wage war. However, it states in other verses:


"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)"


Also, you might find the following abstracted quote taken from an article interesting which is in regards to POW's:


O Prophet! say to those who are captives in your hands: 'If Allah findeth any good in your hearts, He will Give you something better than what has been taken from you, and He will Forgive you: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. But if they have treacherous designs against thee, (O Messenger!), they have already been in treason against Allah, and so hath He given (thee) power over them. And Allah is He who hath (Full) knowledge and wisdom. (The Noble Quran, 8:70-71)"

The following explanation of Noble Verses 8:70-71 was taken from the commentary of Sheikh (Minister) Abdullah Yusuf Ali's (may Allah Almighty rest his soul) English translation:

"This is a consolation to the prisoners of war. In spite of their previous hostility, Allah will forgive them in His mercy if there was any good in their hearts, and confer upon them a far higher gift than anything they have ever lost. This gift in its highest sense would be the blessing of Islam, but even in a material sense, there was great good fortune awaiting them, e.g., in the case of Al-Abbas (who was among the unbelievers and was taken as a prisoner of war).

Note how comprehensive is Allah's care. He encourages and strengthens the Muslims, at the same time condemning any baser motives that may have entered their minds. He consoles the prisoners of war and promises them better things if there is any good in them at all. And He offers comfort to those who have left their homes in His Cause, and knits them into closer fellowship with those who have helped them and sympathized with them.

If the kindness shown to them is abused by the prisoners of war when they are released, it is not a matter of discouragement to those who showed the kindness. Such persons have in their treachery shown already their treason to Allah, in that they took up arms against Allah's Prophet, and sought to blot out the pure worship of Allah. The punishment of defeat, which opened the eyes of some of their comrades, evidently did not open their eyes. But Allah knows all, and in His wisdom will order all things for the best. The Believers have done their duty in showing such clemency as they could in the circumstances of war. For them "Allah sufficeth" (Noble Verse 8:62)" [2].

Note: For the captives, paying money is not always the way to freedom. It is true that they would lose their weapons and other equipment such as their carts, horses, camels, etc..., but to gain their way out of captivity doesn't always have to be through paying money.

When the Muslims won the first battle of Islam against the Pagans, the battle Badr, our Prophet peace be upon him told his captives that whoever wants to earn his freedom he must teach 10 illiterate Muslims how to read and write, and he will then be set free.

Another quote about POW:


"They perform (their) vows, and they fear a Day Whose evil flies far and wide. And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive -- (Saying), 'We feed you For the sake of Allah alone: No reward do we desire from you, nor thanks.' (The Noble Quran, 76:7-9)"




As for 8:12 - I will post a better translation of this:


008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
PICKTHAL: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Note how it is Allah commanding/inspiring the Angels what to do. The word "smite" is used - not cut.

Smite:


smite Audio ****unciation of "smite" ( P ) ****unciation Key (smt)
v. smote, (smt) smit·ten, (smtn) or smote smit·ing, smites
v. tr.

1.
1. To inflict a heavy blow on, with or as if with the hand, a tool, or a weapon.
2. To drive or strike (a weapon, for example) forcefully onto or into something else.
2. To attack, damage, or destroy by or as if by blows.
3.
1. To afflict: The population was smitten by the plague.
2. To afflict retributively; chasten or chastise.
4. To affect sharply with great feeling: He was smitten by deep remorse.


v. intr.

To deal a blow with or as if with the hand or a hand-held weapon.


As for 47:4:


047.004
YUSUFALI: Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
PICKTHAL: Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.
SHAKIR: So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.

It is better to take someone captive and let the war die down and finish rather than have thousands die. This is the reason why alot of Muslims in war practice this capturing sort of thing - however - they seem to go overboard.

[Frank Discussion]

I'll make bold some of the words in the verses just to make things clearer:


I appreciate the clarifications, some of the sentiments regarding prisoners or captives reminds me strongly of the Afghan custom of "nanawatai".

I have found the following quote as well:

"Islam advocates clemency with captives. History has never known warriors so merciful to their captives as the early Muslims who followed the teachings of their religion. Numerous religious texts demand clemency with captives." It goes on to say the Koran offers only two alternatives regarding the captives – free dismissal or ransoming – without referring to enslavement.

( Sheikh Muhammad Abu Zahra )

[Ayura]

Assalam Alaikum Jazakallah :)

[Frank Discussion]

Assalam Alaikum Jazakallah :)

Thank you, Jazak-Allahu khairan :D

[Kontra1]

Interesting how the western propaganda projected the Serbs as the only ruthless monsters the Balcans have ever seen.

Well...you guys did everyting you can do to help, so don't be too hard on yourselves ;)

Kontra1

Michas persuasively recounts how, in the midst of Serb atrocities throughout the 1990s, Greeks rallied to their Orthodox Serb "brethren." He tracks Greek businesses conspiring with civil servants to violate the United Nations embargo on Yugoslavia; Greek officials passing NATO bombing secrets to Milosevic, at least in one instance with the alleged support of the prime minister; Greek mercenaries participating in the slaughter at Srebrenica; Greek priests sending succor to Serbs while ignoring stricken Bosnian Muslims; Greek media willfully distorting the news, running footage of slain Muslims and identifying them as Serbs; Greek politicians welcoming (and vacationing with) Milosevic and his lackeys. While over 100,000 Bosnians were killed, Greeks feted Milosevic and his homicidal accomplices (including Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic) with galas and stadium concerts.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1316/is_9_34/ai_91752279


The Greeks and the Serbs are also Orthodox Christians and see themselves fighting to hold the line against Islam in Europe.

In recent NATO debates, Greece has strongly opposed any military operation to seize Mladic, or other people indicted on charges of war crimes, and it did not like the idea of forcing Dr. Radovan Karadzic to resign from the leadership of the main Bosnian Serb political party as a condition for the party to be allowed to take part in elections.

During the Bosnian war, Greek companies shipped oil to the Bosnian Serbs and to Serbian-dominated Yugoslavia, in violation of the United Nations economic embargo. Greek arms merchants got weapons to the Serbian forces, in violation of the arms embargo.

When the Bosnian Serbs attacked the United Nations "safe area" of Srebrenica last summer, Greek mercenaries fought with them and raised the blue and white Greek flag triumphantly when the enclave fell. Several thousand Muslim men were massacred, and Mladic has been indicted on charges related to the killings.

But the fall of Srebrenica and the massacres went virtually unreported by Greek journalists. Indeed, Bosnian Serbian atrocities throughout the war were ignored by the Greek press, leaving most Greeks as ill-informed about the war as the Serbian people themselves.

A couple of months after the fall of Srebrenica, Lykourezos went on television to raise money for Serbian refugees. More than $400,000 poured in, he said.

Does all this mean that Mladic or Karadzic might find asylum in Greece?

http://www.nytimes.com/specials/bosnia/context/0804yugo-greece.html


Twenty members of the Council of State (Greece’s supreme administrative court) have issued a statement deploring the international crimes against Yugoslavia, which inaugurate a «period of lawlessness» and bring us back to the «eras of the Holy Alliance and the Axis»

JUDGES’ BOMBSHELL
«VERDICT» AGAINST NATO

NATO was found guilty of an unprecedented and barbaric attack against Yugoslavia in a statement signed by 20 high-ranking judges of the Greek Council of State, headed by its most senior vice-president Michalis Dekleris.

http://members.tripod.com/~sarant_2/ks20sumbep.html

[)I(EHbKA.]

So the Quran says that it's ok to kill someone if they go against Allah in such a horrible way? That's strange. Unlike the Quran the Bible says that you should learn to love even your enemy and should never kill. I guess the muslims are simply following their holy book when they do something like that. I'd go with the Bible, murder is horrible and even more horrible when done in such a way.

[Bia]

Btw, is there a sociological explication for the beheading practice, accepting the fact that such an horrible act could be rationalized?The only reasonable explanation would be for the shock and terror value of them being discovered (or seen on video) to the soldiers still alive.
A massive demoralizing tactic? I know it would frighten me.


I simply don't understand the need some guys have to act like mad animals.
War brings this out in many. I saw a video a few days ago online of Marines in the Pacific Islands cutting ears off of dead japanese soldiers.

I dont approve or disapprove as I have never walked in the shoes of war and chaos.

[fantassin]

The moslem way of killing needs blood spilling.

That's why Khomeini was against the atomic bomb because there was, according to him, no blood spilt when one was killed by an A-bomb...


Once again, it's fairly clear we bombed the wrong side in the Balkans.

[achilles]

Interesting how the western propaganda projected the Serbs as the only ruthless monsters the Balcans have ever seen.

Well...you guys did everyting you can do to help, so don't be too hard on yourselves ;)


Not everything, we sent no official army to side with them so you are exaggerating again ;) . But yes we did whatever we could within NATO's context and yes we proudly violated the embargo that can only make civilians starve. We will do it again if NATO starts bombing civilians once more. Sometimes it comes down to just choosing sides. We chose both sides. We facilitated NATO's campaign through Thessaloniki and our air basis, and helped the Serbian people as much as we could. We left the attrocities solely to a part of the Serbian army. Get the pattern now? Probably not.

[Kontra1]

Interesting how the western propaganda projected the Serbs as the only ruthless monsters the Balcans have ever seen.

Well...you guys did everyting you can do to help, so don't be too hard on yourselves ;)


Not everything, we sent no official army to side with them so you are exaggerating again ;) . But yes we did whatever we could within NATO's context and yes we proudly violated the embargo that can only make civilians starve. We will do it again if NATO starts bombing civilians once more. Sometimes it comes down to just choosing sides. We chose both sides. We facilitated NATO's campaign through Thessaloniki and our air basis, and helped the Serbian people as much as we could. We left the attrocities solely to a part of the Serbian army. Get the pattern now? Probably not.

Well...actually, activelly supporting Milosevic & co(by sending para militaries) is not any different than supporting OBL today.You might get some sympathy now and get away with it for supporting a muslim butcher "just cause" of this title,but this still doesn't change the facts about him.

Kontra1

[Lokos]

You know, I wasn't in Kosovo to support 'Milosevic & Co', and neither were any of my colleagues. Until NATO began bombardment, actually, most of us had very little time for Ol' Slobo. But being warred against has a funny way of solidifying a people, and forcing them to rally around the nearest available leader - in this case Milosevic.

Lokos

[achilles]

Well...actually, activelly supporting Milosevic & co(by sending para militaries) is not any different than supporting OBL today.You might get some sympathy now and get away with it for supporting a muslim butcher "just cause" of this title,but this still doesn't change the facts about him.


Are you completely loosing control of what you say? What does supporting the Serbs has to do with supporting an Islamic terrorist like OBL? Taking a look at the facts suggests that our help to NATO was far more significant than our paramilitary support to the Serbian troops. What did you expect from us? To join those teethless bastards who masturate over decapitated christian bodies? ;) Get real, and spare us your unfortunate parallelisms.

[Kontra1]

Well...actually, activelly supporting Milosevic & co(by sending para militaries) is not any different than supporting OBL today.You might get some sympathy now and get away with it for supporting a muslim butcher "just cause" of this title,but this still doesn't change the facts about him.


Are you completely loosing control of what you say? What does supporting the Serbs has to do with supporting an Islamic terrorist like OBL? Taking a look at the facts suggests that our help to NATO was far more significant than our paramilitary support to the Serbian troops. What did you expect from us? To join those teethless bastards who masturate over decapitated christian bodies? ;) Get real, and spare us your unfortunate parallelisms.

The comparison of both criminals is perfectly legitimate.They both were motivated with religious/nationalistic motives and both got the reaction of international society...and mobilization againts themselves. this only by itself good enough reason to put both in the same catagory..of course I know I won't convince any christian fanatics on this.

Kontra1

[Lokos]

I really appreciate being called, indirectly, a terrorist - by extension of fighting for a 'terrorist cause'.

Thanks for that, Kontra.

Lokos

[achilles]

Well...actually, activelly supporting Milosevic & co(by sending para militaries) is not any different than supporting OBL today.You might get some sympathy now and get away with it for supporting a muslim butcher "just cause" of this title,but this still doesn't change the facts about him.


Are you completely loosing control of what you say? What does supporting the Serbs has to do with supporting an Islamic terrorist like OBL? Taking a look at the facts suggests that our help to NATO was far more significant than our paramilitary support to the Serbian troops. What did you expect from us? To join those teethless bastards who masturate over decapitated christian bodies? ;) Get real, and spare us your unfortunate parallelisms.

The comparison of both criminals is perfectly legitimate.they both were motivated with religious/nationalistic motives and both got the reaction of international society...and mobilization againts themselves. this only by itself good enough reason to put both in the same catagory..of course I know I won't convince any christian fanatics on this.

Kontra1

Milosevic is no less of a criminal than the leaders of UCK (KLA) and Bosnian decapitating radicals. There is a symmetry of guilt here, but thats not the case in the OBL vs the rest of the world case. The fact that you do not see the difference, prehaps because this serves your anti-Greek agenda in this case, is somewhat surprising. Greece supported primarily NATO (as far as i am concerned we should have never done that), and a bunch of paramilitary Greeks supported Serbia, mostly Serbian civilians. Plain and simple. We found a middle-way to this conflict and none of us was engaged in any attrocities or any sort of ethnic cleansing that was carried out by Milosevic.

Shall i pressume that Turkey should be considered as a good ally of Saddamm Hussein for not cooperating in the US-lead invasion? Reconsider you logic cause you are digging your own grave in this argumentation ;)

[BigBaribal]

Btw, a good quote from Henry Kissinger, explaining well why US globalists don't like real peoples:


The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame. For this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots: Perhaps then we can force them to conform. I mean, of course, to strike at their language, their religion, their cultural and historical reserves, so that we can neutralize their ability to develop, to distinguish themselves, or to prevail; thereby removing them as an obstacle to our strategically vital plans in the Balkans, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East. (Washington, September 1994)

So, war is the hard tool in the neocons hands, while the diversity concept is the soft tool to weaken these countries (just look at the latest "Bushenko"'s decision facilitating visas for the turks to go in Ukrain). Next target, probably Bielorussia, of course with the help of the stupid gentle "orange" lemmings.


In fact, the USA (1), as THE multicult country and falling down because of that, can't stand the countries which still are able "to distinguish themselves" as the stinky Kissinger said.

That's why China which don't build all this multicult crap and which doesn't suffer of any "yellow guilt" has probably many good cards in hands for this century.




(1) I'm of course not speaking of the Euro-americans who are also victims of this system. Btw, black americans are too suffering the same way of the multicult obliged theory.

[Kontra1]

I really appreciate being called, indirectly, a terrorist - by extension of fighting for a 'terrorist cause'.

Thanks for that, Kontra.

Lokos

Sorry if you took it personally, but that wasn't what I was doing.I was just trying to point out how it sounds to other side when one sympathises with one side's wrong doings just cause they happen to be from the same faith. I don't do that...I condemn both side's extremism.

Kontra1

[achilles]

The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame. For this reason we must strike deep into their cultural roots: Perhaps then we can force them to conform. I mean, of course, to strike at their language, their religion, their cultural and historical reserves, so that we can neutralize their ability to develop, to distinguish themselves, or to prevail; thereby removing them as an obstacle to our strategically vital plans in the Balkans, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East. (Washington, September 1994)

Thats a classic one BB, thanks for bringing it up. Henry described pretty succintcly the mentality of the American policy-makers towards Greece. This partially explains attempts to steal the name 'Macedonia' and all the glorious history that lies behind it. Things havent changed much ever since Kissinger's years. Dubya RUSHED into recognizing FYROM as Macedonia the next day after he got re-elected and keeps pressuring Greece over this, mainly in order to gain Greece's reconciliation for a sovereign Kosovo. He will most likely get it because well, there is no choice in this power game sometimes. Uncle Sam says 'fetch', we 'fetch' ;)
Stay tuned for more 'hot' and even more divided Balcans. Just like America wants it.

[Kontra1]

Shall i pressume that Turkey should be considered as a good ally of Saddamm Hussein for not cooperating in the US-lead invasion? Reconsider you logic cause you are digging your own grave in this argumentation ;)


We did and still cooperating with U.S(we just can't shout about it)Why do you think the bombs exploded in Istanbul?. The only problem was with opening the N.Iraqi border due to reasons I already explained here

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=50742&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=16

Our bases are open since the day one and we supply most of the logistics for the troops(106 Turkish truck drivers killed already..that's more than the Brits' loss)

Kontra1

[achilles]

We did and still cooperating with U.S(we just can't shout about it)Why do you think the bombs exploded in Istanbul?. The only problem was with opening the N.Iraqi border due to reasons I already explained here

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=50742&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=16

Our bases are open since the day one and we supply most of the logistics for the troops(106 Turkish truck drivers killed already..that's more than the Brits' loss)

Kontra1

Yes i know. I am just demonstrating that your accussations against Greece are groundless, pointless, and show that you are using double standards when judging the two countries. I know that both Greece and Turkey will support, willingly or not, America's plans, at least for the time being.

[Kontra1]

We did and still cooperating with U.S(we just can't shout about it)Why do you think the bombs exploded in Istanbul?. The only problem was with opening the N.Iraqi border due to reasons I already explained here

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=50742&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=16

Our bases are open since the day one and we supply most of the logistics for the troops(106 Turkish truck drivers killed already..that's more than the Brits' loss)

Kontra1

Yes i know. I am just demonstrating that your accussations against Greece are groundless, pointless, and show that you are using double standards when judging the two countries. I know that both Greece and Turkey will support, willingly or not, America's plans, at least for the time being.

Standarts regarding the conflicts are often set by religious/ethinc -strategic/national interests.Just being neighbors to Iraq(Syria,Iran) influences enough of our decisions and it can't be compared with Greece's situation.Altough Turkey wants to see the changes around it for the better,past recent conflicts always put the country in a economically and politically fragile position.Turkey just wants to move on and develop itself, but the conflics and potential conflicts around just stalls this prosedure.One should keep this in mind before making judgements on our decisions.

Kontra1

[Lokos]

I do not think the issue at hand was supporting 'Orthodox' Serbia vs 'Muslim' Albanians. I think the issue was supporting Serbia against Albanians in general, on the part of the Greeks, who have been longstanding friends and allies of Serbia in numerous conflicts.

In fact, unless I'm deeply mistaken, the last time Serbia and Greece have fought, as nations, was... never. There is a kinship there that stretches beyond simple matters of religion. Although, I'll admit, the fact that both Greece and Serbia are Orthodox is a significant positive factor in our relationship.

Lokos

[achilles]

What Lokos said, the Orthodox element is important, yet that didnt stop the Russians 80 years ago from butchering a few thousand Pontian refugees, but the strongest bond between Greece and Serbia stems from our common struggles against the Nazis, while the Croatians and Turks were signing 'friendship' and 'cooperation' pacts with the nazis. Its just that some people are on the right side of history most of the times ;)

[Kontra1]

What Lokos said, the Orthodox element is important, yet that didnt stop the Russians 80 years ago from butchering a few thousand Pontian refugees, but the strongest bond between Greece and Serbia stems from our common struggles against the Nazis, while the Croatians and Turks were signing 'friendship' and 'cooperation' pacts with the nazis. Its just that some people are on the right side of history most of the times ;)

I think you're mixing us with some other nation...we weren't even involved in WWII. If my memory serves me correct we stayed neutral until the war ended and we declared war as a formality against nazi Germany ;) (we had to do that for some reason...I can find that out if you'd be interested to know)

Kontra1

[achilles]

This is a part of an official UN document, its a bit graphic to read:

III. MOST FREQUENT FORMS OF PHYSICAL TREATMENT

Classification into physical and psychological, i.e. psycho-social, forms of treatment is of a relative character, because these forms cannot be easily distinguished, one from the others. Some of the most often forms of physical torture registered are:

- deprivation of basic physiological needs, for instance, leaving prisoners five days without water and food or forbidding them to relieve themselves while being tied to hot radiators (I.S., aged 56);

- hitting the heads of the prisoners against the wall until they faint (B.B., aged 66);

- beating with truncheons, wire ropes, butts of guns, broomsticks till the loss of consciousness;

- electrocution with electro shocks, electric wires tied to the wrists in the region of the neck, heavy thigh and even to the genitals;

- "coming to life" of fainted prisoners by brutal physical torture, for instance by pouring vinegar, brandy or even urine into the mouth;

- kicking prisoners with boots while lying on the concrete, blindfolded as not to see faces of their torturers;

- "demonstration" of gouging the eyes of Serbs by sticking fingers into the eye sockets;

- permanent jumping from a bench or a table onto the stomachs of the victims lied on their back on the concrete, until they get hernia (K.T., aged 53, with a hernia large as a human head; C.M., aged 42, with a bit smaller hernia);

- tying men with spread legs and beating them with truncheons on the genitals;

- raping of women with their arms and legs tied in a so-called "black room" for days (M.R., aged 38, lost 25 kg for three months);

- stripping them naked and beating them with boots, truncheons until they faint;

- extinguishing butts of cigarettes into the mouth of victims, forcing them to swallow them;

- swallowing extinguished butts previously plunged into urine;

- chaining the left arm to the left leg (Z.M., aged 43);

- trampling with both legs, fixing the neck with one leg and kicking in the region of the heart with the other one;

- plucking hair and forcing prisoners to eat it (J.N., aged 38);

- extracting teeth, mostly with a barrel of a revolver (two teeth: M.G., aged 42);

- nailing handcuffed prisoners to a fixed hook on a wall, then beating till the loss of consciousness and leaving them in a such position;

- trampling with boots upon the surgical scar from the operation for gastric ulcer (operated on 10 November, arrested on 30 December 1991, D.N., aged 38);

- putting bags over the head, roping around the neck, knocking down to the concrete and then savagely kicking with boots, truncheons, etc.;

- striking on the head with a big metal ladle of 1 m until they faint;

- striking with a "hammer" made of 1-2 kg salt folded in a sheet, knotted and plunged into water so as to gain in weight;

- tying to a tree, in winter at -15 degrees C [+4 degrees F] and watering prisoners in order to hasten their freezing;

- carrying bags full of sand from one side of the camp to the other without any reason under threats: "Who told you to do that, take it back!", without any end to it;

- forcing to relieve themselves in the room where they sleep, on the floor because there are no buckets;

- forcing to take shower with cold and hot water alternately so as to suffer burns;

- tying prisoners to a tree for two days and nights in snow in winter, depriving them of water and food and beating them (N.G., aged 35, permanently relieved from military duty because of illness);

- cutting ears with a knife and forcing prisoners to lick knives under threats of being slaughtered;

- carving the skin on the back with a knife and pouring salt in a wound;

- beating with steel cable on the bare feet;

- there is a case when torturers started to slaughter a prisoner (D.N., aged 42) when, by accident, he was saved by the Commander of the Ministry of the Interior, his school friend from the elementary school.

If you want to see more on mental ill-treatement of the Serbs from the same article click here (http://www.srpska-mreza.com/Bosnia/rapes/raped-serbs.html)

[RATKO]

but the strongest bond between Greece and Serbia stems from our common struggles against the Nazis
and Turks ;)

[Kontra1]

This is a part of an official UN document, its a bit graphic to read:

III. MOST FREQUENT FORMS OF PHYSICAL TREATMENT

Classification into physical and psychological, i.e. psycho-social, forms of treatment is of a relative character, because these forms cannot be easily distinguished, one from the others. Some of the most often forms of physical torture registered are:

- deprivation of basic physiological needs, for instance, leaving prisoners five days without water and food or forbidding them to relieve themselves while being tied to hot radiators (I.S., aged 56);

- hitting the heads of the prisoners against the wall until they faint (B.B., aged 66);

- beating with truncheons, wire ropes, butts of guns, broomsticks till the loss of consciousness;

- electrocution with electro shocks, electric wires tied to the wrists in the region of the neck, heavy thigh and even to the genitals;

- "coming to life" of fainted prisoners by brutal physical torture, for instance by pouring vinegar, brandy or even urine into the mouth;

- kicking prisoners with boots while lying on the concrete, blindfolded as not to see faces of their torturers;

- "demonstration" of gouging the eyes of Serbs by sticking fingers into the eye sockets;

- permanent jumping from a bench or a table onto the stomachs of the victims lied on their back on the concrete, until they get hernia (K.T., aged 53, with a hernia large as a human head; C.M., aged 42, with a bit smaller hernia);

- tying men with spread legs and beating them with truncheons on the genitals;

- raping of women with their arms and legs tied in a so-called "black room" for days (M.R., aged 38, lost 25 kg for three months);

- stripping them naked and beating them with boots, truncheons until they faint;

- extinguishing butts of cigarettes into the mouth of victims, forcing them to swallow them;

- swallowing extinguished butts previously plunged into urine;

- chaining the left arm to the left leg (Z.M., aged 43);

- trampling with both legs, fixing the neck with one leg and kicking in the region of the heart with the other one;

- plucking hair and forcing prisoners to eat it (J.N., aged 38);

- extracting teeth, mostly with a barrel of a revolver (two teeth: M.G., aged 42);

- nailing handcuffed prisoners to a fixed hook on a wall, then beating till the loss of consciousness and leaving them in a such position;

- trampling with boots upon the surgical scar from the operation for gastric ulcer (operated on 10 November, arrested on 30 December 1991, D.N., aged 38);

- putting bags over the head, roping around the neck, knocking down to the concrete and then savagely kicking with boots, truncheons, etc.;

- striking on the head with a big metal ladle of 1 m until they faint;

- striking with a "hammer" made of 1-2 kg salt folded in a sheet, knotted and plunged into water so as to gain in weight;

- tying to a tree, in winter at -15 degrees C [+4 degrees F] and watering prisoners in order to hasten their freezing;

- carrying bags full of sand from one side of the camp to the other without any reason under threats: "Who told you to do that, take it back!", without any end to it;

- forcing to relieve themselves in the room where they sleep, on the floor because there are no buckets;

- forcing to take shower with cold and hot water alternately so as to suffer burns;

- tying prisoners to a tree for two days and nights in snow in winter, depriving them of water and food and beating them (N.G., aged 35, permanently relieved from military duty because of illness);

- cutting ears with a knife and forcing prisoners to lick knives under threats of being slaughtered;

- carving the skin on the back with a knife and pouring salt in a wound;

- beating with steel cable on the bare feet;

- there is a case when torturers started to slaughter a prisoner (D.N., aged 42) when, by accident, he was saved by the Commander of the Ministry of the Interior, his school friend from the elementary school.

If you want to see more on mental ill-treatement of the Serbs from the same article click here (http://www.srpska-mreza.com/Bosnia/rapes/raped-serbs.html)

Sounds terrible...as it happenes in all wars.Seems like we never learn from thse kind of things unfortunatelly.

Kontra1

[achilles]

but the strongest bond between Greece and Serbia stems from our common struggles against the Nazis
and Turks ;)

Oh yep ;)

[Kontra1]

This is a part of an official UN document, its a bit graphic to read:

III. MOST FREQUENT FORMS OF PHYSICAL TREATMENT

Classification into physical and psychological, i.e. psycho-social, forms of treatment is of a relative character, because these forms cannot be easily distinguished, one from the others. Some of the most often forms of physical torture registered are:

- deprivation of basic physiological needs, for instance, leaving prisoners five days without water and food or forbidding them to relieve themselves while being tied to hot radiators (I.S., aged 56);

- hitting the heads of the prisoners against the wall until they faint (B.B., aged 66);




- beating with truncheons, wire ropes, butts of guns, broomsticks till the loss of consciousness;

- electrocution with electro shocks, electric wires tied to the wrists in the region of the neck, heavy thigh and even to the genitals;

- "coming to life" of fainted prisoners by brutal physical torture, for instance by pouring vinegar, brandy or even urine into the mouth;

- kicking prisoners with boots while lying on the concrete, blindfolded as not to see faces of their torturers;

- "demonstration" of gouging the eyes of Serbs by sticking fingers into the eye sockets;

- permanent jumping from a bench or a table onto the stomachs of the victims lied on their back on the concrete, until they get hernia (K.T., aged 53, with a hernia large as a human head; C.M., aged 42, with a bit smaller hernia);

- tying men with spread legs and beating them with truncheons on the genitals;

- raping of women with their arms and legs tied in a so-called "black room" for days (M.R., aged 38, lost 25 kg for three months);

- stripping them naked and beating them with boots, truncheons until they faint;

- extinguishing butts of cigarettes into the mouth of victims, forcing them to swallow them;

- swallowing extinguished butts previously plunged into urine;

- chaining the left arm to the left leg (Z.M., aged 43);

- trampling with both legs, fixing the neck with one leg and kicking in the region of the heart with the other one;

- plucking hair and forcing prisoners to eat it (J.N., aged 38);

- extracting teeth, mostly with a barrel of a revolver (two teeth: M.G., aged 42);

- nailing handcuffed prisoners to a fixed hook on a wall, then beating till the loss of consciousness and leaving them in a such position;

- trampling with boots upon the surgical scar from the operation for gastric ulcer (operated on 10 November, arrested on 30 December 1991, D.N., aged 38);

- putting bags over the head, roping around the neck, knocking down to the concrete and then savagely kicking with boots, truncheons, etc.;

- striking on the head with a big metal ladle of 1 m until they faint;

- striking with a "hammer" made of 1-2 kg salt folded in a sheet, knotted and plunged into water so as to gain in weight;

- tying to a tree, in winter at -15 degrees C [+4 degrees F] and watering prisoners in order to hasten their freezing;

- carrying bags full of sand from one side of the camp to the other without any reason under threats: "Who told you to do that, take it back!", without any end to it;

- forcing to relieve themselves in the room where they sleep, on the floor because there are no buckets;

- forcing to take shower with cold and hot water alternately so as to suffer burns;

- tying prisoners to a tree for two days and nights in snow in winter, depriving them of water and food and beating them (N.G., aged 35, permanently relieved from military duty because of illness);

- cutting ears with a knife and forcing prisoners to lick knives under threats of being slaughtered;

- carving the skin on the back with a knife and pouring salt in a wound;

- beating with steel cable on the bare feet;

- there is a case when torturers started to slaughter a prisoner (D.N., aged 42) when, by accident, he was saved by the Commander of the Ministry of the Interior, his school friend from the elementary school.

If you want to see more on mental ill-treatement of the Serbs from the same article click here (http://www.srpska-mreza.com/Bosnia/rapes/raped-serbs.html)


Sounds terrible...as it happenes in all wars.Seems like we never learn from these kind of things unfortunatelly.

Kontra1

[achilles]

Sounds terrible...as it happenes in all wars.Seems like we never learn from thse kind of things unfortunatelly.

Kontra1

It was terrible for both sides. More Americans should read this becaues they are pretty convinced that their troops were saving the world once more back then. As i said, both sides suffered but only the Serbs received tons of depleted uranium as opposed to the Albano-Kosovars-drug-trafficking-KLA monsters who will soon be enjoying an independent state, if American's plans proceed as scheduled.

[Kontra1]

but the strongest bond between Greece and Serbia stems from our common struggles against the Nazis
and Turks ;)

You should cherish that "victory"... after all you waited 400 years.That's not even a "once in a life time chance" :lol:


Kontra1

[achilles]

I think you're mixing us with some other nation...we weren't even involved in WWII. If my memory serves me correct we stayed neutral until the war ended and we declared war as a formality against nazi Germany ;) (we had to do that for some reason...I can find that out if you'd be interested to know)

Kontra1

No i know pretty well what i am talking about. Turkey did not actually side with Nazi Germany but her help was essential:

What role did Turkey play when Hitler launched his assault against Europe’s Jews? In her op/ed, Benhabib also writes that “Turkey sent Jewish men, including [her] father and uncles, to [labor] camps in the interior to appease the Nazis.” In his book about the inhumane Struma tragedy, former New York Times correspondent in Turkey Douglas Frantz documents additional Turkish support for the Nazi war effort.

“Throughout the war, Turkey was almost the sole supplier of chromium to the Nazis, and [influential Turkish businessman Vehbi] Koch was Turkey’s biggest chromium exporter. [In 1998], the United States government determined that chromium from Turkey had been critical to Nazi Germany’s war effort and had been purchased with gold looted from victims of the Holocaust and deposited in Swiss banks,” writes Frantz in Death on the Black Sea: The Untold Story of the Struma and World War II’s Holocaust at Sea

Not to mention that your bonds with bad bad Germany had already started decades before that, in WWI ;) . And thats not to say the Germany was neccessarily the bad guy back then...

[achilles]

Sorry forgot the link:
http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/january_2004/editorial001.html

[achilles]

but the strongest bond between Greece and Serbia stems from our common struggles against the Nazis
and Turks ;)

You should cherish that "victory"... after all you waited 400 years.That's not even a "once in a life time chance" :lol:


Kontra1
Quoting 'victory'? I can understand that this is not very digestable...what we enjoyed most though is the fact that 200 Greeks or Serbs were enough to wipe out a few thousand Ottomans....i am wondering why we hadnt kicked your sorry asses earlier than that :lol:

[Lokos]

Well, we do cherish it. You were, once upon a time, the greatest military power on the planet. We were several hundred thousand farmers with a couple of overlords and clergymen that made up the ruling class. In fact, at a number of points in history, the Ottoman field army outnumbered the entire Serbian population.

Are you actually gloating over the ability of the Ottoman Empire to dominate a region of a couple of hundred thousand souls, endlessly persecuted and tormented, subjected to the blood tax, treated as second class citizens and otherwise spat upon?

:|

Whatever.

Lokos

[RATKO]

I am waiting for him to mention the fall Constantinopol And state of human rights in Greece

[achilles]

If this Greek-Serbian-Turkish mixture gets a bit more explosive it will be the hottest thread mp.net has ever witnessed :lol:

[Lokos]

Naw. I've instituted a policy of no-go in regards to flaming, provocation or responsiveness to such. So, if this thread turns unfortunate, I'll be out of it faster than a lone Iraqi T-55 cruising in the general direction of US armored cavalry circa 1991.

Lokos

[achilles]

Naw. I've instituted a policy of no-go in regards to flaming, provocation or responsiveness to such. So, if this thread turns unfortunate, I'll be out of it faster than a lone Iraqi T-55 cruising in the general direction of US armored cavalry circa 1991.

Lokos

rofl I wish i had half of your ability to contain yourself

[BigBaribal]

Some more fuel (graphic content), just to show the poor behaviour of the clowns of the Hague:

http://www.serbianna.com/press/011.shtml

[RGRBOX]

The moslem way of killing needs blood spilling.

That's why Khomeini was against the atomic bomb because there was, according to him, no blood spilt when one was killed by an A-bomb...


Once again, it's fairly clear we bombed the wrong side in the Balkans.

Although I didn't like the aligations of French Officers giving info to the Serbs... I aggree with you on this one... we made a mistake getting involved, and then supporting the wrong side... now look at Europe... we loose..

[Kontra1]

I think you're mixing us with some other nation...we weren't even involved in WWII. If my memory serves me correct we stayed neutral until the war ended and we declared war as a formality against nazi Germany ;) (we had to do that for some reason...I can find that out if you'd be interested to know)

Kontra1

No i know pretty well what i am talking about. Turkey did not actually side with Nazi Germany but her help was essential:

What role did Turkey play when Hitler launched his assault against Europe’s Jews? In her op/ed, Benhabib also writes that “Turkey sent Jewish men, including [her] father and uncles, to [labor] camps in the interior to appease the Nazis.” In his book about the inhumane Struma tragedy, former New York Times correspondent in Turkey Douglas Frantz documents additional Turkish support for the Nazi war effort.

“Throughout the war, Turkey was almost the sole supplier of chromium to the Nazis, and [influential Turkish businessman Vehbi] Koch was Turkey’s biggest chromium exporter. [In 1998], the United States government determined that chromium from Turkey had been critical to Nazi Germany’s war effort and had been purchased with gold looted from victims of the Holocaust and deposited in Swiss banks,” writes Frantz in Death on the Black Sea: The Untold Story of the Struma and World War II’s Holocaust at Sea

Not to mention that your bonds with bad bad Germany had already started decades before that, in WWI ;) . And thats not to say the Germany was neccessarily the bad guy back then...

Any armenian link has 0 credibility for me...others might buy it though ;)

Kontra1

[Kontra1]

Sounds terrible...as it happenes in all wars.Seems like we never learn from thse kind of things unfortunatelly.

Kontra1

It was terrible for both sides. More Americans should read this becaues they are pretty convinced that their troops were saving the world once more back then. As i said, both sides suffered but only the Serbs received tons of depleted uranium as opposed to the Albano-Kosovars-drug-trafficking-KLA monsters who will soon be enjoying an independent state, if American's plans proceed as scheduled.

Oh yeah...we can clearly see that you guys trying to convince the last remaining undecided people to decide for "Muslims in Bosnia deserved what they got" by taking advantage of the 9/11 events ;)...that is very obvious to us.

Kontra1

[achilles]

Turkey collaborated with Nazi Germany in supplying vital chromium ore for the Nazi war machine which prolonged World War II by several months and thereby increased the number of allied casualties and Holocaust victims. As the official U.S. Government report made clear, Turkey has still refused to make any restitution of Nazi gold and other assets it obtained as the fruits of this collaboration.
http://www.ahiworld.com/clintonletter8.html

He also significantly omits to mention that Turkey broke its treaty with Britain and France to enter World War II, remained neutral, and profited from both sides. In fact, Turkey favored Nazi Germany and supplied Hitler with chromium, a vital resource to Nazi Germany’s armaments industry and war effort. (See F. Weber, The Evasive Neutral, pg. 44, 1979). Hitler’s armament chief, Albert Speer, provided Hitler a memorandum in November 1943 on “Alloys and Armaments Production and the Importance of Chromium Imports from the Balkans and Turkey,” which stated that the loss of chromium supplies from Turkey would end the war in about 10 months. (See A. Speer, Inside the Third Reich, pp. 316-17, 405, 550 note 10, 1970.)
http://www.ahiworld.com/090402_letter.html

Portugal, Spain, Sweden, and Turkey all sold Nazi Germany resources critical to sustaining its wartime industry, the report says.

Our first report focused on how Nazi Germany financed its war effort. Switzerland figured prominently because our focus was on looted gold and the key role that that gold played in the German war effort. Today's report focuses on the equally important issue of the uses to which that looted gold was put -- the ability of the Nazis to use Swiss francs they obtained in exchange for the gold they looted to purchase critical war materials from the other neutral countries necessary to sustain the war effort: Argentina, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and Turkey.

There are five sets of new findings in this report since our first. The first deal with the enormous contribution of European neutrals in supplying critical materials to the German war effort. This report makes clear that whatever their motivations and however acceptable by the standards of the time this trade was for neutrals - and, indeed, legally, much of it was - the cumulative trade of the World War II European neutral countries, in particular Spain, Portugal, Sweden and Turkey, helped to the sustain the Nazi war effort by supplying key materials essential to their conduct in the war in many cases well past the point where, from the Allied perspective at the time, there appeared to be a genuine threat of German attack.
http://canberra.usembassy.gov/hyper/WF980602/epf206.htm


Turkey supplied the Nazis with chromium, particularly early in the war. Andrew E. Mathis, Ph.D.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/turkey.shtml


That fact that you deny THAT as well comes as no surprise. Satisfied now? ;)

[Kontra1]

but the strongest bond between Greece and Serbia stems from our common struggles against the Nazis
and Turks ;)

You should cherish that "victory"... after all you waited 400 years.That's not even a "once in a life time chance" :lol:


Kontra1
Quoting 'victory'? I can understand that this is not very digestable...what we enjoyed most though is the fact that 200 Greeks or Serbs were enough to wipe out a few thousand Ottomans....i am wondering why we hadnt kicked your sorry asses earlier than that :lol:

All I can say is; We don't talk too positively about our Ottoman history's last 100 years....it was their weakest times.

Kontra1

[achilles]

Sounds terrible...as it happenes in all wars.Seems like we never learn from thse kind of things unfortunatelly.

Kontra1

It was terrible for both sides. More Americans should read this becaues they are pretty convinced that their troops were saving the world once more back then. As i said, both sides suffered but only the Serbs received tons of depleted uranium as opposed to the Albano-Kosovars-drug-trafficking-KLA monsters who will soon be enjoying an independent state, if American's plans proceed as scheduled.

Oh yeah...we can clearly see that you guys trying to convince the last remaining undecided people to decide for "Muslims in Bosnia deserved what they got" by taking advantage of the 9/11 events ;)...that is very obvious to us.

Kontra1

Show me where exactly did i claim that innocent Bosnian or Albanian civilians that were killed, deserved what they got. You are not trying to distort what i post do you? ;)

[Kontra1]

Turkey supplied the Nazis with chromium, particularly early in the war. Andrew E. Mathis, Ph.D.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/turkey.shtml


That fact that you deny THAT as well comes as no surprise. Satisfied now? ;)[/quote]

Haha..."Earlier in the war" yeah! Hitler was recegnized as fully respected,democratically elected leader by the whole Europe and U.S remember ;)

[Kontra1]

Sounds terrible...as it happenes in all wars.Seems like we never learn from thse kind of things unfortunatelly.

Kontra1

It was terrible for both sides. More Americans should read this becaues they are pretty convinced that their troops were saving the world once more back then. As i said, both sides suffered but only the Serbs received tons of depleted uranium as opposed to the Albano-Kosovars-drug-trafficking-KLA monsters who will soon be enjoying an independent state, if American's plans proceed as scheduled.

Oh yeah...we can clearly see that you guys trying to convince the last remaining undecided people to decide for "Muslims in Bosnia deserved what they got" by taking advantage of the 9/11 events ;)...that is very obvious to us.

Kontra1

Show me where exactly did i claim that innocent Bosnian or Albanian civilians that were killed, deserved what they got. You are not trying to distort what i post do you? ;)

Well how'bout...


More Americans should read this becaues they are pretty convinced that their troops were saving the world once more back then.

can you deny that there was a ethnic clensing going on before it was interupted?

Ignoring Genocide
Greek television, newspapers hold negative attitude of United States, NATO military campaign in Kosovo

The Greeks have a negative attitude toward the United States and NATO's military campaign in Kosovo. It might just have been the handiwork of a few, but many walls in Corfu Town contained the graffiti "NATO=NAZI" and "USA" with the S made into a swastika. In Thessaloniki, graffiti referred to NATO as the "Nazi American Troop Organization." I think these people are a little confused as to whom in this conflict are acting like Nazis. Nonetheless, the Greek daily newspaper Kathimerini reported 98 percent of the Greeks are opposed to the NATO bombardment.

http://www.kstatecollegian.com/issues/v103/sp/n146/opinion/opn.levin.html








Kontra1

[achilles]

Turkey supplied the Nazis with chromium, particularly early in the war. Andrew E. Mathis, Ph.D.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/turkey.shtml



That fact that you deny THAT as well comes as no surprise. Satisfied now? ;)

Haha..."Earlier in the war" yeah! Hitler was recegnized as fully respected,democratically elected leader by the whole Europe and U.S remember ;)

Not really. Most Europeans knew what a dangerous douchbag he was, yet they were trying to appease him. But how does that change that fact that 'neutral' Turkey actively supported him, something that you denied a couple of posts back? ;) Or you are accepting it now? Perhaps you didnt know that you provided him with essential materials such as chromium back then? ;)

[achilles]

Well how'bout...


More Americans should read this because they are pretty convinced that their troops were saving the world once more back then.

Is there any similarity between this:

you guys trying to convince the last remaining undecided people to decide for "Muslims in Bosnia deserved what they got"

...and what i actually said?

More Americans should read this because they are pretty convinced that their troops were saving the world once more back then

Of course not. Obviously you are trying to distort what i said. No innocent civilian deserved what happened to him Albanian, Bosnian, Serbian. That should make it quite clear now.




can you deny that there was a ethnic clensing going on before it was interupted?

Of course there was and i never claimed the opposite. The truth though is that the ethnic cleansing was reciprocal. Bosnians are responsible for acts of horror against Serbian children, women and aged people. The thing is that Milosevic had the means to kill more massively. Have no doubt that the Bosnians/Kossovars would have wiped the Serbs out of the map if they had the means. But stay tuned, cause there are lots of new info coming up regarding the acts of those Bosnian and KLA angels. ;)

[achilles]

The Greeks have a negative attitude toward the United States and NATO's military campaign in Kosovo. It might just have been the handiwork of a few, but many walls in Corfu Town contained the graffiti "NATO=NAZI" and "USA" with the S made into a swastika. In Thessaloniki, graffiti referred to NATO as the "Nazi American Troop Organization." I think these people are a little confused as to whom in this conflict are acting like Nazis. Nonetheless, the Greek daily newspaper Kathimerini reported 98 percent of the Greeks are opposed to the NATO bombardment.

Yes we did have a very negative attitude against NATO's campaign. Thats what we are talking about :lol:

[Hoplite_V]

I get akick out of Serbs, croatians and bosnian-muslims condeming each other accusing one another of war crimes. It's like 3 serial killers calling each other murderers.
It's almost as clever as calling everyone whom you disagree with a nazi.

i wonder how many people don't understand that the US and allies fought the nazi's and oh,lets say stopped generations of europeaners from being wiped out if they didnt have blonde hair and blue eyes.

Calling allied countries nazi's sure is clever.

[achilles]

Calling allied countries nazi's sure is clever.

Its is just an exaggerated way of showing one's disagreement and rage towards an unfair, short-sighted and American-oriented campaign, that above all devastated the lives of Serbian civilians. I am sure America can live with that sort of criticism ;)

[RGRBOX]

Why is it always the same guys fighting over the same subjects????

[Inquisitor]

my 2 cents:

if the guys hasn't committed war crimes,may he R.I.P.

and one other thing:if another french,serb or greek start bitching again about "equality" between crimes committed by all sides I have a video I'd like to show to the community.

[Kontra1]

Calling allied countries nazi's sure is clever.

Its is just an exaggerated way of showing one's disagreement and rage towards an unfair, short-sighted and American-oriented campaign, that above all devastated the lives of Serbian civilians. I am sure America can live with that sort of criticism ;)

EXAGGERATED! :roll:

Hell...you guys made your condemnation offical from the highest justice institution in Greece :roll:

Twenty members of the Council of State (Greece’s supreme administrative court) have issued a statement deploring the international crimes against Yugoslavia, which inaugurate a «period of lawlessness» and bring us back to the «eras of the Holy Alliance and the Axis»

JUDGES’ BOMBSHELL
«VERDICT» AGAINST NATO

NATO was found guilty of an unprecedented and barbaric attack against Yugoslavia in a statement signed by 20 high-ranking judges of the Greek Council of State, headed by its most senior vice-president Michalis Dekleris.

In this important statement, the judges condemn the NATO bombardments, denounce the international crimes being committed by the NATO countries through this armed attack, and warn that any law passed deciding to involve Greece in this war will constitute a gross violation of the Constitution....

http://members.tripod.com/~sarant_2/ks20sumbep.html


Big Fat Greek Collaboration

Unholy Alliance is a chilling tale. It opens in 1993 with Michas's Greek newspaper column being suspended after he wrote about the beleaguered newspaper Oslobodjenje, a well-respected independent daily in Sarajevo. Michas included the paper's address for anyone who wanted to send support. "We received a lot of phone calls that day from readers protesting that, we were asking them to send money to the Muslims so that they could buy arms to kill Orthodox Serbs," his editor told him.

Michas persuasively recounts how, in the midst of Serb atrocities throughout the 1990s, Greeks rallied to their Orthodox Serb "brethren." He tracks Greek businesses conspiring with civil servants to violate the United Nations embargo on Yugoslavia; Greek officials passing NATO bombing secrets to Milosevic, at least in one instance with the alleged support of the prime minister; Greek mercenaries participating in the slaughter at Srebrenica; Greek priests sending succor to Serbs while ignoring stricken Bosnian Muslims; Greek media willfully distorting the news, running footage of slain Muslims and identifying them as Serbs; Greek politicians welcoming (and vacationing with) Milosevic and his lackeys. While over 100,000 Bosnians were killed, Greeks feted Milosevic and his homicidal accomplices (including Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic) with galas and stadium concerts.

This is the grist of Unholy Alliance, an unrelenting stream of damning evidence showing that while Athens was officially allied with the European Union and NATO to oppose Milosevic, its politicians, and church leaders, its media and labor unions were actively assisting his regime and showing little sympathy for his victims."There was not one house editorial in 10 years in any of over 20 national newspapers deriding Serb war crimes," Michas told me in a recent interview.

Greeks found Milosevic's actions justified, Michas concludes, because he was defending his ethnic group's sovereignty. The minorities he attacked could be seen as fifth columnists who threatened the Serb nation. Milosevic also played on Greece's age-old enmity with Turkey to keep Greeks in line. "From the moment Bosnian Muslims were demonized as Friends of the Turks, every crime against them was justified in the eyes of the average Greek," Michas writes.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1316/is_9_34/ai_91752279


Greece's Chief Human Rights Official Comments AIM Article
AIM Athens, January 23, 2001

We reproduce below the comment on our article "Greece's Chief Human Rights Official's Odd Views on Plavsic and DU Weapons Use in NATO Raids" (AIM Athens, January 16, 2001) received from Greece's chief human rights official. It confirms indeed that its author has a very different "conception of the role and duties of human rights defenders [and their] real independence of position." Greek Helsinki Monitor (whose spokesperson Panayote Dimitras is) has publicly and consistently opposed NATO raids in 1999 and expressed its strong condemnation of The Hague's Tribunal's decision a year ago not to look into serious and credible (mostly NGO-provided) evidence of NATO-committed violations of humanitarian law. In the recent DU debate, it has also stated that "should there be incontrovertible scientific proof of their long-term serious adverse effects, it must lead to the prosecution of all those parties responsible in initiating and/or cooperating and/or tolerating their use, wherever they are, no matter how powerful they are." However, equating any NATO (or Second World War Allied Forces for that matter) war crimes with Nazi atrocities and genocide only helps trivialize the latter. While bringing the allegations of bias in the 1993 investigation of mass rapes in Bosnia to the Tribunal -directly to its prosecutor for possible indictments- not when ICTY was launched, but eight years later and in the framework of the defense of Biljana Plavsic, can only be perceived as an effort to trivialize the latter's alleged horrible crimes and to help offer "attenuating circumstances" for them. We agree, though, that it is Professor Marangopoulos' stance on such issues -as well as her (and the institutions' she chairs) silence on human and especially minority rights violations in Greece- that have contributed to her prominence in such institutions. Follows the full text of her letter.

http://www.aimpress.ch/dyn/trae/archive/data/200101/10123-003-trae-ath.htm


In the birthplace of democracy - Nato's strategic arm in the south-eastern Mediterranean and Euroland's most recent addition - Giorgos's views are not unusual. If anything, they are rather tame.

... Repeatedly, Hellenes topped international league tables in their lack of sympathy for post-attack America. Fewer Greeks supported the US-led war than did Palestinians. Midway through the campaign, polls showed that eight in ten were vehemently opposed to the air strikes

http://www.westernpolicy.org/InThePress/20011126.asp

[Clearday-TRForce]

Bosnian Serbs apologize for Srebrenica massacre

BANJA LUKA, Bosnia-Hercegovina (AFP) - Bosnian Serb authorities apologized for the first time to relatives of around 8,000 Muslims killed by Serb forces in the 1995 Srebrenica massacre, Europe's worst atrocity since World War II.

"The government of Republika Srpska sympathizes with the pain of relatives of the Srebrenica victims and expresses sincere regrets and apologies over the tragedy which has happened to them," a government statement said.

The Bosnian Serb government accepted last month a local report by a special investigative commission acknowledging that almost 8,000 Muslims were killed in the massacre, in the final stages of Bosnia's 1992-95 war.

The report marked the first time Bosnian Serb authorities have admitted the scale of the massacre in the eastern, UN-protected enclave.

Serb authorities had previously downplayed the slaughter -- classed as an act of genocide by the UN war crimes tribunal at The Hague (news - web sites) -- but the report's toll of up to 8,000 vicitims is in line with independent estimates.

Muslim men and boys were separated from the women and murdered over several days after Serb forces swept through the region.

The Bosnian Serb government said it was committed to bring to justice those responsible for the massacre. Republika Srpska is the Serb-run entity which along with the Muslim-Croat Federation makes up post-war Bosnia.

"The Republika Srpska government is committed and is undertaking decisive steps to bring to justice all those who committed war crimes," is said.

The UN war crimes tribunal at The Hague has indicted Bosnian Serb wartime leader Radovan Karadzic and his military commander, Ratko Mladic, for genocide for their alleged roles in the massacre.

Although the war ended nine years ago the two still remain at large, hiding somewhere in the former Yugoslavia where they are still regarded as heroes by their hardline supporters.

[zealot]

I am not getting involved in the whole Greek-Turkey issue, but i just want to point out -
From the moment Bosnian Muslims were demonized as Friends of the Turks, - well they can hardly be demonized as friends of Turks, when the Bosnian muslims are themselves of Turkish descent ( - the legacy of the ottoman empire) and were aided both financially and militarily by Turks (albeit covertly)

[Clearday-TRForce]

I am not getting involved in the whole Greek-Turkey issue, but i just want to point out -
From the moment Bosnian Muslims were demonized as Friends of the Turks, - well they can hardly be demonized as friends of Turks, when the Bosnian muslims are themselves of Turkish descent ( - the legacy of the ottoman empire) and were aided both financially and militarily by Turks (albeit covertly)


exactly, all Bosnians are our brothers...If someone make something to them, they will see us in there.

http://www.friendsofbosnia.org/_news/89_tenYrDirectory/poster_01.jpg

We will NEVER forget...

[Durandal]

I simply don't understand the need some guys have to act like mad animals.

Because they ARE mad animals. Its been this way in this region for thousands of years and continues to be.

[achilles]

EXAGGERATED!

Hell...you guys made your condemnation offical from the highest justice institution in Greece EXAGGERATED!

First i saw no comment in this very latest post thanking me for showing you that your 'neutral' ancestors had supported Hitler and his Nazis...as you can see 'i did not confuse you with some other country' :lol: ...

Second, you didnt understand what i meant by 'exaggerated' did you? Some Greeks were calling the American government and NATO 'Nazi' in an exaggerated way to express their opposition against the war.
Given that, the rest of your post is redundant and, as usual, of doubtful objectiveness. Yes, we ferociously opposed the NATO campaign at the HIGHEST governmental level and we will proudly do it again if NATO decides to bomb innocent people and devastate civilian infrastructures. Yet, as a NATO ally we facilitated the whole campaign by allowing NATO troops to use our ports and bases for their attack. You dont need to exhaust this site's bandwidth in order to repeat what i am actually saying Kontra. :lol:




exactly, all Bosnians are our brothers...If someone make something to them, they will see us in there.


Who do you think you are my poor little Turk? :lol: Where were you 10 years ago? ;)

[Clearday-TRForce]

you mean poor and weak Greek...yeah we also know, why do you repeat it continuesly? find urself a country which is similar to ur influence in Africa...maybe Zambia or Uganda :lol:

[achilles]

you mean poor and weak Greek...yeah we also know, why do you repeat it continuesly? find urself a country which is similar to ur influence in Africa...maybe Zambia or Uganda :lol:

I never say no to you, do i? :lol: :petting:

[Clearday-TRForce]

ssst...kardes find urself a place in Africa...

[Inquisitor]

- well they can hardly be demonized as friends of Turks, when the Bosnian muslims are themselves of Turkish descent

just an appointment,we are not of turkish descent,I mean our DNA is not the same, but our nationality has taken huge amounts of turkish culture.

[Kontra1]

I am not getting involved in the whole Greek-Turkey issue, but i just want to point out -
From the moment Bosnian Muslims were demonized as Friends of the Turks, - well they can hardly be demonized as friends of Turks, when the Bosnian muslims are themselves of Turkish descent ( - the legacy of the ottoman empire) and were aided both financially and militarily by Turks (albeit covertly)

The support was given after realization of the fact that the Europeans were not going to do anything about the butcherings that went on for too long already...I'm sure some one here can pull out some info about Milosevic's promise to Chirac for ridding the Europen continent of Muslims ;)

Kontra1

[Durandal]

- well they can hardly be demonized as friends of Turks, when the Bosnian muslims are themselves of Turkish descent

just an appointment,we are not of turkish descent,I mean our DNA is not the same, but our nationality has taken huge amounts of turkish culture.

Wow, a purist.

Come on man. There is PLENTY of Turkish blood rolling through the Balkans. PLENTY of it. History proves that...

[Inquisitor]

- well they can hardly be demonized as friends of Turks, when the Bosnian muslims are themselves of Turkish descent

just an appointment,we are not of turkish descent,I mean our DNA is not the same, but our nationality has taken huge amounts of turkish culture.

Wow, a purist.

Come on man. There is PLENTY of Turkish blood rolling through the Balkans. PLENTY of it. History proves that...

uff man...please get some info about our DNA

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1529-8817.2005.00190.x?journalCode=ahg

[Durandal]

- well they can hardly be demonized as friends of Turks, when the Bosnian muslims are themselves of Turkish descent

just an appointment,we are not of turkish descent,I mean our DNA is not the same, but our nationality has taken huge amounts of turkish culture.

Wow, a purist.

Come on man. There is PLENTY of Turkish blood rolling through the Balkans. PLENTY of it. History proves that...

uff man...please get some info about our DNA

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1529-8817.2005.00190.x?journalCode=ahg

The Turks where in and out of that region on several occasions.

Please do not cite me a test done by people in the region who cling to their nationalism and ethnicity like they were drowning using a sample of less than 300 individuals.

[Clearday-TRForce]

The issue is not about DNA...the issue is about humanity.They can feel theirselves "Turk" or not...Of course we very much know we have got lots of Turks in Bosnia,Kosova and round the region...This s normal due to Ottoman Empire.

[Inquisitor]

- well they can hardly be demonized as friends of Turks, when the Bosnian muslims are themselves of Turkish descent

just an appointment,we are not of turkish descent,I mean our DNA is not the same, but our nationality has taken huge amounts of turkish culture.

Wow, a purist.

Come on man. There is PLENTY of Turkish blood rolling through the Balkans. PLENTY of it. History proves that...

uff man...please get some info about our DNA

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1529-8817.2005.00190.x?journalCode=ahg

The Turks where in and out of that region on several occasions.

Please do not cite me a test done by people in the region who cling to their nationalism and ethnicity like they were drowning using a sample of less than 300 individuals.


who the hell said turks weren't there?You must really be a fool to think if someone conquers you than all your people becames the people of the conquerer.So now Italians are frenchs because napoleon conquered them?

And btw that institute collaborated with the italian institute in Pavia so it's not "a regional one"

[Kontra1]

EXAGGERATED!

Hell...you guys made your condemnation offical from the highest justice institution in Greece EXAGGERATED!

First i saw no comment in this very latest post thanking me for showing you that your 'neutral' ancestors had supported Hitler and his Nazis...as you can see 'i did not confuse you with some other country' :lol: ...

Second, you didnt understand what i meant by 'exaggerated' did you? Some Greeks were calling the American government and NATO 'Nazi' in an exaggerated way to express their opposition against the war.
Given that, the rest of your post is redundant and, as usual, of doubtful objectiveness. Yes, we ferociously opposed the NATO campaign at the HIGHEST governmental level and we will proudly do it again if NATO decides to bomb innocent people and devastate civilian infrastructures. Yet, as a NATO ally we facilitated the whole campaign by allowing NATO troops to use our ports and bases for their attack. You dont need to exhaust this site's bandwidth in order to repeat what i am actually saying Kontra. :lol:

Haha.. at first, I didn't take it seriously since the links you had provided was pretty biased,anti-Turkish AHI(American hellenistic Institution) links ;) but I figured people would not know that, so it took some time to respond.

Greeks are not against NATO and Americans ONLY because of the Serbia's bombing...read my post here regarding to a similar subject.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=50742

There is ABSOLUTELLY no way you can make us a part of your shamefull European history.Actions of an money crazed individual cannot be seen as an offical involment of the Turkish gov't back then. I infact read the biography of this individual and he had Turkish Jews oppointed in his business empire all the way since the first days.It's easier to look back right now and see the potential wrong doings in the early days and during the WWII, but I suspect it was so clear to see it back then...I mean,if the Europenas couldn't see what was coming, how in the earth a guy from Turkey could see it ;)

Also, Atatürk and his friends' had always opposed to Ottoman's decision to fight on the side of Germany during the WWI, so this lead them to make wiser decisions during WWII.Turkey had its own problems as a newly emerging state from a long and destructive wars and had no time for supporting a crazy nazi regime in germany.

While we're at it...shall we see what kind of involment your country's officals had with this sick regime in germany?

Go on and read the whole article and not only the parts I hi-lighted...it gets mucfh more interesting.If you want to stick to this subject, I got tons of material to prove the special greek hatered against the Jews.

reviewed by Dr. Albert de Vidas

In modern times, Plaut explains the difference between the monarchist parties and the followers of Venizelos who instituted a Republic from 1924 to 1934. It was under the republican regime that extreme anti-semitic measures were taken by the government and the many racist and nazi parties that emerged at that time. The E.E.E. (Ethniki Enosis Ellados), the National Association of Greece in particular, spearheaded the pogroms in Kavalla in 1930, in the Campbell neighborhood of Salonica in 1931 and in Kastoria in 1934, all with the complicity of the local police forces and the government. Only the return of the monarchy, according to Plaut, stopped those outrages against the Jewish population which was vastly diminished in numbers by emigration.

The forced hellenization of all minorities in Greece, the enforcement of the Sunday sabbath, the closing of the schools of the Alliance Israelite Universelle, forbidding the presence of Jews in the harbor of Salonica, the suppression of the French-Jewish press, all those governmental actions led to waves of Jewish emigration towards France, Turkey, Egypt, Palestine and the American continent...

The end of the Second World War, according to Plaut did not end the suffering of the Jews in Greece. No official government body welcomed the survivors home or helped them reclaim their properties. Their Greek Christian neighbors who had collaborated with the Germans and had looted and occupied their residences and businesses, refused to give them back. Communal properties of the Jews were quickly confiscated by the municipalities, Jewish tombstones were used to repair the streets and sidewalks, especially in Salonica. The efforts of the Jews to reclaim their personal properly often encountered a wall of reluctance on the part of the government. A law issued in 1948 prohibited the eviction of squatters, making the repossession of Jewish properties impossible

http://jews-for-allah.org/messianic-jews/christianhistorywithjews/jewish__greek_history.htm

[Kontra1]

Well how'bout...


More Americans should read this because they are pretty convinced that their troops were saving the world once more back then.

Is there any similarity between this:

you guys trying to convince the last remaining undecided people to decide for "Muslims in Bosnia deserved what they got"

...and what i actually said?

More Americans should read this because they are pretty convinced that their troops were saving the world once more back then

Of course not. Obviously you are trying to distort what i said. No innocent civilian deserved what happened to him Albanian, Bosnian, Serbian. That should make it quite clear now.




can you deny that there was a ethnic clensing going on before it was interupted?

Of course there was and i never claimed the opposite. The truth though is that the ethnic cleansing was reciprocal. Bosnians are responsible for acts of horror against Serbian children, women and aged people. The thing is that Milosevic had the means to kill more massively. Have no doubt that the Bosnians/Kossovars would have wiped the Serbs out of the map if they had the means. But stay tuned, cause there are lots of new info coming up regarding the acts of those Bosnian and KLA angels. ;)

It's kind of hard to understand why you'd be against KLA while you support PKK?? aren't they both "Freedom fighters" ;)


More Americans should read this because they are pretty convinced that their troops were saving the world once more back then


Of course not. Obviously you are trying to distort what i said. No innocent civilian deserved what happened to him Albanian, Bosnian, Serbian. That should make it quite clear now.

No dude...no need to distort what you're saying.Your message is coming loud and clear to everyone.Why is the worry? hell...you people probably getting applouse for being so far-sighted ;)

Kontra1

[Inquisitor]

Of course there was and i never claimed the opposite. The truth though is that the ethnic cleansing was reciprocal. Bosnians are responsible for acts of horror against Serbian children, women and aged people. The thing is that Milosevic had the means to kill more massively. Have no doubt that the Bosnians/Kossovars would have wiped the Serbs out of the map if they had the means. But stay tuned, cause there are lots of new info coming up regarding the acts of those Bosnian and KLA angels.

sure man.We were litterally etnic cleansing serbs before the war.Please,spare me that ****.

[RGRBOX]

my 2 cents:

if the guys hasn't committed war crimes,may he R.I.P.

and one other thing:if another french,serb or greek start bitching again about "equality" between crimes committed by all sides I have a video I'd like to show to the community.

Post it, I'd like to see this video...

[achilles]

Haha.. at first, I didn't take it seriously since the links you had provided was pretty biased,anti-Turkish AHI(American hellenistic Institution) links ;) but I figured people would not know that, so it took some time to respond.

Thats bad, because the fact that you provided Hitler with chromium was essential to his campaign. Yes, other than that you remained pretty neutral :lol: Of course you are referring to one of the links, whose content is 100% accurate even if you are not perfectly happy with its name. The denial goes one.....


There is ABSOLUTELLY no way you can make us a part of your shamefull European history.

:lol: This is hilarious coming from a Turk...give me a break please...


Also, Atatürk and his friends' had always opposed to Ottoman's decision to fight on the side of Germany during the WWI, so this lead them to make wiser decisions during WWII.

Wiser decisions like...providing the Nazi military machine with essential materials? :lol:


Turkey had its own problems as a newly emerging state from a long and destructive wars and had no time for supporting a crazy nazi regime in germany.

I think i just showed that that was not the case...stick to the fact and not to distortions please. ;)


While we're at it...shall we see what kind of involment your country's officals had with this sick regime in germany?

You never seize to post and re-post the same things over and over again even if this is irrelevant to our theme. What does Greek anti-semitism have to do with supporting Hitler? Look, anti-semitism is a more or less global trend. You can find Jew-haters practically everywhere, so pinpointing that Greece is characterized by the same problem actually makes no point. Certainly being an anti-semitist does not make one a nazi-lover. I am afraid your logic is severely flawed.
When talking about Greece and WWII you should project more humility, self-criticism and respect towards the fact that we beat the Italians and fought the Germans very bravely while you were signing chromium business deals with Hitler. We contributed a lot to the anti-Nazi struggle but i suppose your history books do not include that part.


sure man.We were litterally etnic cleansing serbs before the war.Please,spare me that ****.

Did i say that? What is this with reading compregension lately? I guess people read what they WANT to read. Certain propaganda centers should spare the rest of us the UTTER bull**** that Serbians are the only ones that comitted attrocities in this conflict. No i am no Milosevic fan, far from it, but i tend to realize the duality in this conflict. Do you?

[Inquisitor]

Did i say that? What is this with reading compregension lately? I guess people read what they WANT to read. Certain propaganda centers should spare the rest of us the UTTER bull**** that Serbians are the only ones that comitted attrocities in this conflict. No i am no Milosevic fan, far from it, but i tend to realize the duality in this conflict. Do you?

That every side committed crimes?Of course.There was no war that hadn't crimes on both side,nore will ever exist.But there can be huge differences between them.And in the Bosnian war equality is the last word you can use.
To say it better, when crimes occured by bosnian side, they were committed by isolated thugs who wer not under the direct command of Sarajevo.The most of times these were gangs who, far away from the control of our Army had the possibility to make jutice by themselves.Like Naser Oric.
That is a difference, the killings,the etnic cleansing,was not a part of a plan,unlike the Serbian side.Than the biggest difference are numbers.You cannot even compare the numbers of innocents died by serbian hands and by bosnian hands.Not even compare.Our losses were 90% civillians,their were 90% soldiers.Than apart from killings,find me some proofs of serbian women raped by bosnians who were under the central command.Please,find me,of course,not BS serb sites.Than compare the numbers of mosques destroyed by serbs and the number of churches destroyed by bosnians.The ratio would be like 1000:10.And tell me I am wrong.Look at concentration camps.Every side committed war crimes?Yes.It has always been like this and will be forever.But are those sides equyal in these crimes?No,not even near.

[Inquisitor]

my 2 cents:

if the guys hasn't committed war crimes,may he R.I.P.

and one other thing:if another french,serb or greek start bitching again about "equality" between crimes committed by all sides I have a video I'd like to show to the community.

Post it, I'd like to see this video...


I want to avoid flame wars,I am not that pissed to post it,for now.Maybe later,when I will get pissed.

[Clearday-TRForce]

my 2 cents:

if the guys hasn't committed war crimes,may he R.I.P.

and one other thing:if another french,serb or greek start bitching again about "equality" between crimes committed by all sides I have a video I'd like to show to the community.

Post it, I'd like to see this video...


I want to avoid flame wars,I am not that pissed to post it,for now.Maybe later,when I will get pissed.


Be free to show what you want...we are always with you.
equality in crimes? it s full of bs. huge bs...

[theg]

ı havent rode but ıf CD with u man ı with u too
trust turks and fell an be safe
;) ;) ;)

[Inquisitor]

thx guys I really appreciate your support,but really,I don't want to flame.Maybe if they continue to bitch about equality,that is when I really get pissed.I'll send both to you a PM with the video,tough ;)

Selam alejkum

http://www.bhdani.com/arhiva/263/turska4.jpg

[achilles]

INQUISITOR, i have explained my stance quite thoroughly. The Serbians seem to be responsible for more deaths simply because they had more means towards that end. I cannot imagine any better coming from you or the ethnic Albanians of Kossovo, given that you had the means. You have showed your barbarism yourselves whenever you had the chance. Raping kids, women, decapitating and all those beautiful acts of 'self-defense' ;)

My objection goes to the NATO propaganda that depicted the Serbo/Bosnian conflict pretty much like the Nazi campaign against the Jews. Far from it. My other objection goes to the fact that NATO stopped Milosevic's ethnic cleansing (noone doubts that its an ethnic cleansing we are talking about) by bombing the **** out of Serbian civilians, while nothing bad happened to your decapitating loving troops. See what i mean? I am not here to advocate Milosevic or ethnic cleansing in general for God's sake. Dont forget that i am coming from a country that suffered a lot of 'ethnic cleansing' and even genocide...all i am saying is that there are blame to both sides, and i have no doubt, especially for the Albanians of the South, that had they been provided with the means they would have wipped out every single Serb. Thats hypothetical but take it as my personal assessment. I have seen the amount of hatred these people have....always bitching and whinning and ASKING for things they do not deserve. And again, the Bosnians showed no mercy when they had the chance. I am pretty convinced that if you could do more...you would. Of course the numbers at hand clearly favour Bosnian and the ethnic Albanians, but allow me to have a doubt as to how much those numbers are artificially skewed in favour of NATO's propaganda.

In any case, Milosevic is a big-time criminal and should rot in prison, along with a good number of Bosnian 'saints'. Fair enough? ;)

[achilles]

thx guys I really appreciate your support,but really,I don't want to flame.Maybe if they continue to bitch about equality,that is when I really get pissed.I'll send both to you a PM with the video,tough ;)


As if we cannot find similar evidence on your attrocities against Serbian civilians. What is this a threat? :lol:

Noone is bitching about equality kardas...it is you who have been busting the balls of the world all these years that Serbia is the one and only evil state on this planet.

[Inquisitor]

INQUISITOR, i have explained my stance quite thoroughly. The Serbians seem to be responsible for more deaths simply because they had more means towards that end. I cannot imagine any better coming from you or the ethnic Albanians of Kossovo, given that you had the means. You have showed your barbarism yourselves whenever you had the chance. Raping kids, women, decapitating and all those beautiful acts of 'self-defense' Wink

Now just a question.What the hell does the albanians have to do with Bosnia?You say serbs did a lot more of this because they had they the mean,now can you tell me why are in Bosnian towns chuches?And can you tell me why there were no mosques in Serbian towns?They had more C4 :lol: ?And now please,please FIND ME THE PROOFS OF BOSNIANS RAPING SERB KIDS AND WOMEN.Please,links,proofs.Actual proofs,not "supposed" proofs.And tell me,how many decapitations were there?What acts of self-defense do you mean?


My objection goes to the NATO propaganda that depicted the Serbo/Bosnian conflict pretty much like the Nazi campaign against the Jews. Far from it.

What the hell are you talking about???
Bosnians were held in concentration camps,killed,tortured,their homes looted,their mosques burned.And it was not the same?


My other objection goes to the fact that NATO stopped Milosevic's ethnic cleansing (noone doubts that its an ethnic cleansing we are talking about) by bombing the **** out of Serbian civilians, while nothing bad happened to your decapitating loving troops.

Well you know...there is a difference between decapitating an officer and shelling a market place killing 64 people and wounding more than 100.Or you don't see the difference?


See what i mean? I am not here to advocate Milosevic or ethnic cleansing in general for God's sake. Dont forget that i am coming from a country that suffered a lot of 'ethnic cleansing' and even genocide...all i am saying is that there are blame to both sides, and i have no doubt, especially for the Albanians of the South, that had they been provided with the means they would have wipped out every single Serb. Thats hypothetical but take it as my personal assessment. I have seen the amount of hatred these people have....always bitching and whinning and ASKING for things they do not deserve.

What the hell have albanians to do with Bosnia???


And again, the Bosnians showed no mercy when they had the chance. I am pretty convinced that if you could do more...you would.

1)these acts seem like acts of no mercy towards the whole serbian people?Can you please,for God's sake tell me why our 2nd most important officer was a serb?I'd really like to know that.
2)oho...basing on "supposition"...I tought you had more than this
;)


Of course the numbers at hand clearly favour Bosnian and the ethnic Albanians, but allow me to have a doubt as to how much those numbers are artificially skewed in favour of NATO's propaganda.

Ah well the 200000 number is exagerated,but even serbs said it was not less than 120000.Now you tell me.


In any case, Milosevic is a big-time criminal and should rot in prison, along with a good number of Bosnian 'saints'. Fair enough? ;)

If they are proved to be guilty,yes.Unless that,no. ;)

[Inquisitor]

As if we cannot find similar evidence on your attrocities against Serbian civilians. What is this a threat? :lol:

Well,I'll post my video,you will post your about our atrocities,than we'll see if we can compare it,ok?I will be happy to see how the result of the comparison will be ;)


Noone is bitching about equality kardas...it is you who have been busting the balls of the world all these years that Serbia is the one and only evil state on this planet.

oh No,there are others as well,don't worry ;)

[achilles]

It seems that you have found the tree but completely lost the forest. Shall we play that 'who's got more links' contest?

I ll reply to your post later on...while i am at it, please reconsider your extremely stupid comment of comparing the Jewish holocaust to the Serbo/Bosnian conflict. We have all had enough of minimally thought exaggerations around here.

Later...

[zealot]

Achilles: INQUISITOR, i have explained my stance quite thoroughly. The Serbians seem to be responsible for more deaths simply because they had more means towards that end. I cannot imagine any better coming from you or the ethnic Albanians of Kossovo, given that you had the means. You have showed your barbarism yourselves whenever you had the chance. Raping kids, women, decapitating and all those beautiful acts of 'self-defense'

My objection goes to the NATO propaganda that depicted the Serbo/Bosnian conflict pretty much like the Nazi campaign against the Jews. Far from it. My other objection goes to the fact that NATO stopped Milosevic's ethnic cleansing (noone doubts that its an ethnic cleansing we are talking about) by bombing the **** out of Serbian civilians, while nothing bad happened to your decapitating loving troops. See what i mean? I am not here to advocate Milosevic or ethnic cleansing in general for God's sake. Dont forget that i am coming from a country that suffered a lot of 'ethnic cleansing' and even genocide...all i am saying is that there are blame to both sides, and i have no doubt, especially for the Albanians of the South, that had they been provided with the means they would have wipped out every single Serb. Thats hypothetical but take it as my personal assessment. I have seen the amount of hatred these people have....always bitching and whinning and ASKING for things they do not deserve. And again, the Bosnians showed no mercy when they had the chance. I am pretty convinced that if you could do more...you would. Of course the numbers at hand clearly favour Bosnian and the ethnic Albanians, but allow me to have a doubt as to how much those numbers are artificially skewed in favour of NATO's propaganda.

In any case, Milosevic is a big-time criminal and should rot in prison, along with a good number of Bosnian 'saints'. Fair enough?

couldn't agree more, although i have one objection, it seem that lots of poeple, (not only you - it seems to be common through out the forum) use term "Bosnian" when reffering to Bosnian Muslims. As far as i know word Bosnian can by applied to any citizen of Bosnia (any nationality).

P.S. I suppose it doesn't suprise me when it comes from Turks (after all they'd love that, Bosnia=Muslim ;)[/quote]

[zealot]

duplicate content

[zealot]

thx guys I really appreciate your support,but really,I don't want to flame.Maybe if they continue to bitch about equality,that is when I really get pissed.I'll send both to you a PM with the video,tough ;)

Selam alejkum

http://www.bhdani.com/arhiva/263/turska4.jpg

^ Who's on this photo, what is going on here ?

[Clearday-TRForce]

Achilles: INQUISITOR, i have explained my stance quite thoroughly. The Serbians seem to be responsible for more deaths simply because they had more means towards that end. I cannot imagine any better coming from you or the ethnic Albanians of Kossovo, given that you had the means. You have showed your barbarism yourselves whenever you had the chance. Raping kids, women, decapitating and all those beautiful acts of 'self-defense'

My objection goes to the NATO propaganda that depicted the Serbo/Bosnian conflict pretty much like the Nazi campaign against the Jews. Far from it. My other objection goes to the fact that NATO stopped Milosevic's ethnic cleansing (noone doubts that its an ethnic cleansing we are talking about) by bombing the **** out of Serbian civilians, while nothing bad happened to your decapitating loving troops. See what i mean? I am not here to advocate Milosevic or ethnic cleansing in general for God's sake. Dont forget that i am coming from a country that suffered a lot of 'ethnic cleansing' and even genocide...all i am saying is that there are blame to both sides, and i have no doubt, especially for the Albanians of the South, that had they been provided with the means they would have wipped out every single Serb. Thats hypothetical but take it as my personal assessment. I have seen the amount of hatred these people have....always bitching and whinning and ASKING for things they do not deserve. And again, the Bosnians showed no mercy when they had the chance. I am pretty convinced that if you could do more...you would. Of course the numbers at hand clearly favour Bosnian and the ethnic Albanians, but allow me to have a doubt as to how much those numbers are artificially skewed in favour of NATO's propaganda.

In any case, Milosevic is a big-time criminal and should rot in prison, along with a good number of Bosnian 'saints'. Fair enough?

couldn't agree more, although i have one objection, it seem that lots of poeple, (not only you - it seems to be common through out the forum) use term "Bosnian" when reffering to Bosnian Muslims. As far as i know word Bosnian can by applied to any citizen of Bosnia (any nationality).

P.S. I suppose it doesn't suprise me when it comes from Turks (after all they'd love that, Bosnia=Muslim ;)[/quote]



nonsense,irrelevant.

[Inquisitor]

It seems that you have found the tree but completely lost the forest. Shall we play that 'who's got more links' contest?

Oh well,it can be,and at the end we'll see the "equality".Maybe I'll earn something new.

btw please not "proofs" from srpska-mreza and similiar.


I ll reply to your post later on...while i am at it, please reconsider your extremely stupid comment of comparing the Jewish holocaust to the Serbo/Bosnian conflict. We have all had enough of minimally thought exaggerations around here.

Later...

by some ponits,it was exactly the same.

I'll be waiting...

[Inquisitor]

couldn't agree more, although i have one objection, it seem that lots of poeple, (not only you - it seems to be common through out the forum) use term "Bosnian" when reffering to Bosnian Muslims. As far as i know word Bosnian can by applied to any citizen of Bosnia (any nationality).

yes it can.But no,with bosnian they mean all people who felt bosnians,not serbs,nore croats,all those who fought for an united bosnia,I guess.



P.S. I suppose it doesn't suprise me when it comes from Turks (after all they'd love that, Bosnia=Muslim ;)

Oh man,If it was only Muslim,it wouldn't be the same.But that we have always been the majority,and will forever be the majority,of course...

[Inquisitor]

thx guys I really appreciate your support,but really,I don't want to flame.Maybe if they continue to bitch about equality,that is when I really get pissed.I'll send both to you a PM with the video,tough ;)

Selam alejkum

http://www.bhdani.com/arhiva/263/turska4.jpg

^ Who's on this photo, what is going on here ?

It was a turk base in Bosnia,on the match Turkey-Brasil.These are turk soldiers.

[theg]

thx guys I really appreciate your support,but really,I don't want to flame.Maybe if they continue to bitch about equality,that is when I really get pissed.I'll send both to you a PM with the video,tough ;)

Selam alejkum

http://www.bhdani.com/arhiva/263/turska4.jpg

^ Who's on this photo, what is going on here ?
on this photo
they are turkish soldiers at bosnia
maybe they watched football match
bosnian and turks everytime brother

[theg]

;)

[theg]

aleykum selam

[Clearday-TRForce]

Equality? bs people round put all these things in an "equilibrium"

Look at your Equalibrium...


http://www.bosniaaftermath.com/images/gallerywidows_02-gallery-10.gif
http://www.bosniaaftermath.com/images/gallerywidows_02-gallery-11.gif
http://www.friendsofbosnia.org/_news/89_tenYrDirectory/poster_01.jpg

someone says it s old...It s old...10 years ago, and it s old...we know,Ur brain makes it old...

[theg]

http://www.evrenkent.gen.tr/haberler/MostarKoprusu1.jpg

[theg]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/turkish/specials/images/152_mostar_bridge/5151526_1.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/turkish/specials/images/152_mostar_bridge/5151623_2.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/turkish/specials/images/152_mostar_bridge/5151859_3.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/turkish/specials/images/152_mostar_bridge/5152023_4.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/turkish/specials/images/152_mostar_bridge/515217_5.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/turkish/specials/images/152_mostar_bridge/5152156_6.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/turkish/specials/images/152_mostar_bridge/5152243_7.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/turkish/specials/images/152_mostar_bridge/5152332_8.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/turkish/specials/images/152_mostar_bridge/5152411_9.jpg
mostar war and peace bridge

[achilles]

Now just a question.What the hell does the albanians have to do with Bosnia?You say serbs did a lot more of this because they had they the mean,now can you tell me why are in Bosnian towns chuches?And can you tell me why there were no mosques in Serbian towns?They had more C4 :lol: ?And now please,please FIND ME THE PROOFS OF BOSNIANS RAPING SERB KIDS AND WOMEN.Please,links,proofs.Actual proofs,not "supposed" proofs.And tell me,how many decapitations were there?What acts of self-defense do you mean?

We are talking about the same Serbs right? They did attack Albanian ethnic minorities in the South am i right? So why are you getting so upset with including them in our 'debate', for the sake of parallelism and providing examples? I will soon answer your non-sensical questions, just to show that you are way off, and probably not very much awayre of what your compadres are responsible for...



Well you know...there is a difference between decapitating an officer and shelling a market place killing 64 people and wounding more than 100.Or you don't see the difference?

I do. Can you see the degree of brutality and horror in decapitating someone? Or are you so proud of your muslim heritage in terms of choppin people's heads off? I am not talking numbers here...i am just pointing out that decapitations is one of your very own traits. Other than that, a killing is a killing.



What the hell have albanians to do with Bosnia???

Why the hell are you getting furious when i talk more inclusively regarding the Serbs? I explained that above.



Ah well the 200000 number is exagerated,but even serbs said it was not less than 120000.Now you tell me.

Tell you what my dear friend? People died from both sides. Evidence suggest that the Serbs comitted most of the killings, isnt that what i said long before you jumped onto this with a vengeance? Why are you missing the point again?




If they are proved to be guilty,yes.Unless that,no.

Well, apparently :lol: ...what i was hinting at is that there are Bosnians that should rot in hell as much as Milosevic deserves it. Unless you are claiming that Bosnia is not accountable for anything. I believe this is not what you are saying....stay tuned for more...

[achilles]

First a little refresher regarding the Croatians. This prooves my point that the Serbs are not the only ones responsible:

In 1995, Croatian forces launched a massive offensive against the Krajina Serbs. The offensive led to approximately 14,000 Serb civilians being killed and about 300,000 Serb refugees. The lightning attack included attacks against civilians, namely burning Serb homes, looting Serb property, and killing and mutilating Serb civilians, especially the elderly. Global Security (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/croatia.htm)

Its the same guys who slaughtered 14,000 civilians that rushed into supporting the Bosnian-Croats (from the same artilce):

Also of note is the Croatian involvement in the war in Bosnia. The Yugoslav Republic of Bosnia was made up of a patchwork of varrious ethnicities, mostly Serbs, Muslims (sometimes called Bosniaks), and Croats. As Yugoslavia began to dissolve in the early 1990s, the Croats and Muslims within Bosnia began to fear Serb domination and voted for independence from Yugoslavia. As the Bosnian Serbs began to carve out their own parts of Bosnia, Bosnian Croats began to do the same and founded the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosnia (Herceg/Herzegovina refers to the Croatian portion of Bosnia). Fighting grew to be intense between Muslim forces and Bosnian Croat forces who were directly supported by the Croatian government in Zagreb, and in 1994 Croatian forces began to fight directly in support of the Bosnian Croats.

And before we go to the main course, this is another refresher that suggest more HUMILITY and self-criticism when your actual history is full of ****:

Heinrich Himmler inspects the Bosnian Muslim 13th Waffen SS Division
Heinrich Himmler, arguably the number two after Hitler and the mastermind and architect of the Final Solution and the Holocaust, inspects the Bosnian Muslim 13th Waffen SS Division Hanjar. This division of 20.000 Bosnian Muslims killed thousands of Americans in Italiy, fighting the 5th U.S.Army division for six months. After the Americans broke through the lines this Division returned to Yugoslavia. Thir new task was to maintain the railway link between the Balkans and Auschwitz. Hanjar - the Arabic for a "dagger" (throat-slitter) was exactly what they did to 300.000 Serbs and 60.000 Jews in Bosnia during the WWII. Shown to the left of Himmler is the SS Brigadier General Karl G. Sauberzweig, commander of the Hanjar division. This photograph appears in the Uniforms Organizations and History of the Waffen SS by R. Bender and Hugh Taylor. The orginal photograph is on display at the Imperial War Museum in London.
http://www.kosovo.com/muslimss.gif

Yep, i like taking things from scratch cause this way we can understand why certain Serbs wanted your Nazi-supporting asses on a plate. Stay tuned for more....

[Inquisitor]

We are talking about the same Serbs right? They did attack Albanian ethnic minorities in the South am i right? So why are you getting so upset with including them in our 'debate', for the sake of parallelism and providing examples? I will soon answer your non-sensical questions, just to show that you are way off, and probably not very much awayre of what your compadres are responsible for...
1)No,they are not the same serbs.

The serbs we are talking about are bosnian serbs in the years 1992-1995.
I guess you are talking about the serbian serbs in 1999.
Or not :| ?
2)I am well aware of everything my side has done,don't worry about it.


I do. Can you see the degree of brutality and horror in decapitating someone? Or are you so proud of your muslim heritage in terms of choppin people's heads off? I am not talking numbers here...i am just pointing out that decapitations is one of your very own traits. Other than that, a killing is a killing.

Spare me that ****.
It's not one of ours "pure traits" there is a witnesses,a mother who lost her children who witnessed some atrocities in the Hague if I recall well,she also talked about a serb who cutted off a baby's head.I'll find the tape,later...unfortunately it's in bosnian/serbian/croat but be free to ask anyone if that is not what she is saying.


Why the hell are you getting furious when i talk more inclusively regarding the Serbs? I explained that above.

I explained above too.


Tell you what my dear friend? People died from both sides. Evidence suggest that the Serbs comitted most of the killings, isnt that what i said long before you jumped onto this with a vengeance? Why are you missing the point again?

No my friend.You are missing my point.You said that "you don't know you can rely on NATO about the amonut of people killed.
I just repyied,maybe you'll trust serbs.


Well, apparently ...what i was hinting at is that there are Bosnians that should rot in hell as much as Milosevic deserves it. Unless you are claiming that Bosnia is not accountable for anything. I believe this is not what you are saying....stay tuned for more...

I share your same view,no doubt about it.
I will.

[Inquisitor]

First a little refresher regarding the Croatians. This prooves my point that the Serbs are not the only ones responsible:

In 1995, Croatian forces launched a massive offensive against the Krajina Serbs. The offensive led to approximately 14,000 Serb civilians being killed and about 300,000 Serb refugees. The lightning attack included attacks against civilians, namely burning Serb homes, looting Serb property, and killing and mutilating Serb civilians, especially the elderly. Global Security (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/croatia.htm)

Its the same guys who slaughtered 14,000 civilians that rushed into supporting the Bosnian-Croats (from the same artilce):

Also of note is the Croatian involvement in the war in Bosnia. The Yugoslav Republic of Bosnia was made up of a patchwork of varrious ethnicities, mostly Serbs, Muslims (sometimes called Bosniaks), and Croats. As Yugoslavia began to dissolve in the early 1990s, the Croats and Muslims within Bosnia began to fear Serb domination and voted for independence from Yugoslavia. As the Bosnian Serbs began to carve out their own parts of Bosnia, Bosnian Croats began to do the same and founded the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosnia (Herceg/Herzegovina refers to the Croatian portion of Bosnia). Fighting grew to be intense between Muslim forces and Bosnian Croat forces who were directly supported by the Croatian government in Zagreb, and in 1994 Croatian forces began to fight directly in support of the Bosnian Croats.

Because I said Serbs are the only one who made war crimes?
Man read better my posts.


And before we go to the main course, this is another refresher that suggest more HUMILITY and self-criticism when your actual history is full of ****:
[quote]Heinrich Himmler inspects the Bosnian Muslim 13th Waffen SS Division
Heinrich Himmler, arguably the number two after Hitler and the mastermind and architect of the Final Solution and the Holocaust, inspects the Bosnian Muslim 13th Waffen SS Division Hanjar. This division of 20.000 Bosnian Muslims killed thousands of Americans in Italiy, fighting the 5th U.S.Army division for six months. After the Americans broke through the lines this Division returned to Yugoslavia. Thir new task was to maintain the railway link between the Balkans and Auschwitz. Hanjar - the Arabic for a "dagger" (throat-slitter) was exactly what they did to 300.000 Serbs and 60.000 Jews in Bosnia during the WWII. Shown to the left of Himmler is the SS Brigadier General Karl G. Sauberzweig, commander of the Hanjar division. This photograph appears in the Uniforms Organizations and History of the Waffen SS by R. Bender and Hugh Taylor. The orginal photograph is on display at the Imperial War Museum in London.
http://www.kosovo.com/muslimss.gif

Yep, i like taking things from scratch cause this way we can understand why certain Serbs wanted your Nazi-supporting asses on a plate. Stay tuned for more....

1)What is it? rofl rofl rofl
you have to go searching WW2 to accuse us of something :lol: ??
Are we now talking about WW2???
Do you want me to post something about serbs i WW2?I see someone is getting pissed off :lol:


2) rofl rofl

please.
Man,really,please spare me that ****.I made a search on google.

www.kosovo.com

www.srpska-mreza.com
rofl rofl rofl
these are the sites from where you have taken the article?You really trust these sites?? :lol:
I clearly told you please some articles not from Biased sites..I see this is the best you can do :roll: rofl



EDIT:

300000 SERBS and 60000 JEWS!!!!!!!

rofl rofl rofl

MAN YOU ARE RELYING ON SRPSKA-MREZA rofl rofl

NEVER LEAVE THE FORUM!!!!

even serbs know these sites are full of BS! rofl

[achilles]

Listen kid, you are not Clearday's Bosnian alter ego are you? You are excessive amount of rofling smilies suggest the opposite.

Your sources are not better than mine, and in any case those are historical facts that can be easily prooven from a number of sites. Other than that listen again...conflicts have deep historical roots and especially conflicts in the Balkans. This is the only reason i am including all this information in my posts but you act like you just graduated from kindergarden. Do you want to talk about it serously and within an historical context or you want to stick to your 'hey they are worse than us, they killed 10 we killed 9!!' moronic way ot talking...i am waiting for an answer...

[achilles]

and you are not pissing your pants when posting are you ? You seem pretty excited :lol:

[Clearday-TRForce]

1)What is it?
you have to go searching WW2 to accuse us of something ??
Are we now talking about WW2???
Do you want me to post something about serbs i WW2?I see someone is getting pissed off


rofl ,this is Achilles, full of "bs"

[Inquisitor]

Listen kid, you are not Clearday's Bosnian alter ego are you? You are excessive amount of rofling smilies suggest the opposite.

Your sources are not better than mine, and in any case those are historical facts that can be easily prooven from a number of sites. Other than that listen again...conflicts have deep historical roots and especially conflicts in the Balkans. This is the only reason i am including all this information in my posts but you act like you just graduated from kindergarden. Do you want to talk about it serously and within an historical context or you want to stick to your 'hey they are worse than us, they killed 10 we killed 9!!' moronic way ot talking...i am waiting for an answer...

sorry but...

:lol:

relying on srpska-mreza..I mean...even serbs have left that sites.

Ok now I'll be serious:
Are you kidding me?I mean,are you really,really relying on Srpska-mreza?Because f that is so,than we can immediately end this conversation, I will say yes we bosnians are butchers and let's remain on this.Because I tought actually you would post me something serious,not that crap.Find me some other site,just another,international site about history that:
1)will say Hanjar killed 300000 serbs and 60000 jews.
2)their task was protecting the railroad auschwits-balkans.
3)there were only bosnian muslims in the hanjar division.

I'll add I have never heard they fought in Italy,just France and Hungary(apart from balkans).

No,I am not inviting you to do it(tough if you want,be free because If it's so I am really interested) but to show you what bunch of crap these sites are.On a lot of balkan forums we bosnians discovered so many lies in these sites you cannot imagine.

Plus if we want to start from a historical context,you want me to find some cool articles about serbian history?


EDIT:
PLEASE TELL ME YOU TRUST SRPSKA-MREZA????

[achilles]

1)What is it?
you have to go searching WW2 to accuse us of something ??
Are we now talking about WW2???
Do you want me to post something about serbs i WW2?I see someone is getting pissed off


rofl ,this is Achilles, full of "bs"

Hey retardo, can you relieve us from your stupidity for a little while? :lol: I would really appreciate it...thanks ;)

[Clearday-TRForce]

Achilles, what do you back here? Milosevic? or what?

or

you would like to make "minimizing of pain,plans,genocide,acrocities,massacres" below;


http://www.friendsofbosnia.org/zones/images/photos/16B.jpg

Genocide is often assumed to mean the mass destruction of a people. That certainly was happening throughout Bosnia during most of the war, but according to the Genocide Convention, the term also refers to the intentional destruction of culture...

We will NEVER forget.

[achilles]

Achilles, what do you back here? Milosevic? or what?


Mate, please do me a big favour and stay out of this. You are so stupid and ingorant that you dont even bother reading what i have posted so far, so all you can do is make the discussion go into meaningless circles. Ask Inquisitor is if back Milosevic.
Please let a couple of people with a minimal amount of brains and reading comprehension talk. I know you have nothing constuctive to say, cause you know **** about the Balkanic conflicts, so take a break will you?

Cheers

[Clearday-TRForce]

Achilles, what do you back here? Milosevic? or what?


Mate, please do me a big favour and stay out of this. You are so stupid and ingorant that you dont even bother reading what i have posted so far, so all you can do is make the discussion go into meaningless circles. Ask Inquisitor is if back Milosevic.
Please let a couple of people with a minimal amount of brains and reading comprehension talk. I know you have nothing constuctive to say, cause you know **** about the Balkanic conflicts, so take a break will you?

Cheers

but you call urself "I m everywhere"...so u have faced to face with a Turk... rofl

and note: of course you dont back Milosevic, but what are you doing here?
for mentioning some "equilibrium"...have you taken ur toys from toys r us?

[achilles]

but you call urself "I m everywhere"...so u have faced to face with a Turk... rofl

and note: of course you dont back Milosevic, but what are you doing here?
for mentioning some "equilibrium"...have you taken ur toys from toys r us?

Just try reading your very own posts sometimes mate...i am not kidding you have serious brain problems...take it easy and let go dumbass, stop wasting bandwidth...

[Clearday-TRForce]

yeah the way of you...keep on insulting to get profit behalf of you...everywhere achilles... rofl

[Inquisitor]

achilles I am still waiting for this:

and in any case those are historical facts that can be easily prooven from a number of sites

but I don't want to put you in a hurry,take your time ;)

[Clearday-TRForce]

for my brother - Inquisitor, hold a second...

now keep on your bs posts round here Achilles the Everywhere rofl

[Lokos]

I used to participate in threads like this. No more.

Achilles:

Thanks for what you're doing, but don't waste your time. These sorts of arguments tend to degenerate quickly. Differing points of view are differing points of view. They can only be changed by internal recalibration - and seldom by direct external influence.

Lokos

[achilles]

achilles I am still waiting for this:

and in any case those are historical facts that can be easily prooven from a number of sites

but I don't want to put you in a hurry,take your time ;)

My posts are small breaks that i take throughout the day from my work...not very likely that i will put myself in a hurry ;)

I ll get back to you in due time. In the meantime you could perhaps contain the stupid monkey :lol:

[Clearday-TRForce]

yeah fit on you...

[zealot]

Achilles: INQUISITOR, i have explained my stance quite thoroughly. The Serbians seem to be responsible for more deaths simply because they had more means towards that end. I cannot imagine any better coming from you or the ethnic Albanians of Kossovo, given that you had the means. You have showed your barbarism yourselves whenever you had the chance. Raping kids, women, decapitating and all those beautiful acts of 'self-defense'

My objection goes to the NATO propaganda that depicted the Serbo/Bosnian conflict pretty much like the Nazi campaign against the Jews. Far from it. My other objection goes to the fact that NATO stopped Milosevic's ethnic cleansing (noone doubts that its an ethnic cleansing we are talking about) by bombing the **** out of Serbian civilians, while nothing bad happened to your decapitating loving troops. See what i mean? I am not here to advocate Milosevic or ethnic cleansing in general for God's sake. Dont forget that i am coming from a country that suffered a lot of 'ethnic cleansing' and even genocide...all i am saying is that there are blame to both sides, and i have no doubt, especially for the Albanians of the South, that had they been provided with the means they would have wipped out every single Serb. Thats hypothetical but take it as my personal assessment. I have seen the amount of hatred these people have....always bitching and whinning and ASKING for things they do not deserve. And again, the Bosnians showed no mercy when they had the chance. I am pretty convinced that if you could do more...you would. Of course the numbers at hand clearly favour Bosnian and the ethnic Albanians, but allow me to have a doubt as to how much those numbers are artificially skewed in favour of NATO's propaganda.

In any case, Milosevic is a big-time criminal and should rot in prison, along with a good number of Bosnian 'saints'. Fair enough?

couldn't agree more, although i have one objection, it seem that lots of poeple, (not only you - it seems to be common through out the forum) use term "Bosnian" when reffering to Bosnian Muslims. As far as i know word Bosnian can by applied to any citizen of Bosnia (any nationality).

P.S. I suppose it doesn't suprise me when it comes from Turks (after all they'd love that, Bosnia=Muslim ;)



nonsense,irrelevant.[/quote]

Everyone is entiteled to their own opinion, but come on now, cut me some slack, you'd love to have a little outpost of your own in the central europe or wouldn't you?? (ofcourse that nis where the dream ends ;)

[Inquisitor]

Well Bosnia has already a bosniak majority...and recent date shows serbs are decreasing(let's not talk about croats).

I bet you are one of those who will fled from Europe when we'll be a clear majority.

May I add there are 500000 of us abroad.Some will stay abroad but alot will return.

But what are u afraid of?
Are u one of those who are scared of muslims?

We have already been there more than 500 years and we still didn't declare any jihad... :roll:



edit:

in fact that's wrong we declared one against ottomans in the late 19th century

[zealot]

Achilles, what do you back here? Milosevic? or what?

or

you would like to make "minimizing of pain,plans,genocide,acrocities,massacres" below;


http://www.friendsofbosnia.org/zones/images/photos/16B.jpg

Genocide is often assumed to mean the mass destruction of a people. That certainly was happening throughout Bosnia during most of the war, but according to the Genocide Convention, the term also refers to the intentional destruction of culture...

We will NEVER forget.

I am pretty sure that Serbs will never forget 100's of years of butchering by Turks ... ;)

[Frank Discussion]

I used to participate in threads like this. No more.


I'm staying on the sidelines as well.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Inquisitor, if it s ok, I will answer to someone here...


zealot hi,

well tell me your Turkish butcher thing more to Serbs people, I would like to hear some opposite opinions in a civil manner and way.

[zealot]

I used to participate in threads like this. No more.


I'm staying on the sidelines as well.

I never get 'too' involved, because to be 'frank' - it's pointless & i haven't got enough time

But i do ocassionally drop a line, to remind the 'righteous' ones that things aren't exactly b&W

[Clearday-TRForce]

I used to participate in threads like this. No more.


I'm staying on the sidelines as well.

I never get 'too' involved, because to be 'frank' - it's pointless & i haven't got enough time

But i do ocassionally drop a line, to remind the 'righteous' ones that things aren't exactly b&W

in ur side, everything must be right...coz u feel u are right...

[Inquisitor]

But i do ocassionally drop a line, to remind the 'righteous' ones that things aren't exactly b&W

I try to do the same,but I have got time...

[zealot]

Inquisitor, if it s ok, I will answer to someone here...


zealot hi,

well tell me your Turkish butcher thing more to Serbs people, I would like to hear some opposite opinions in a civil manner and way.

Hi Clearday

Sorry if i wasn't 'civil' or if i offended you in any way, that wasn't my intention. But I found it ironic, to say the least, when i saw the photo of garves of bosnian muslims, not turks, posted by you and underneath it says 'we will never forget', after all the horrific and brutal things serbs have endured under Ottoman rule for 100's of years ....



I would like to hear some more ...

Well, go to libarary and get any history book on Ottoman empire , or even better, look up the book 'Bridge on the River Drina' by Nobel-prize bosnian novelist ...

Also i can also recall reading or hearing some Bosnian Serb General saying after Srebrenica massacre 'We have waited for this for 500 years' - reffering to the Ottoman rule ( don't get me wrong i am not trying to jusify any killings - just trying to stress that what 'Turks' did to serbs is still very much fresh in serbian psyche ...

[zealot]

I used to participate in threads like this. No more.


I'm staying on the sidelines as well.

I never get 'too' involved, because to be 'frank' - it's pointless & i haven't got enough time

But i do ocassionally drop a line, to remind the 'righteous' ones that things aren't exactly b&W

in ur side, everything must be right...coz u feel u are right...

Please enlighten me what exactly is my side.... :cantbeli: LOL

[Inquisitor]

Please enlighten me what exactly is my side.... LOL

are you french?...just wondering

[Clearday-TRForce]

Well, go to libarary and get any history book on Ottoman empire , or even better, look up the book 'Bridge on the River Drina' by Nobel-prize bosnian novelist ...

Also i can also recall reading or hearing some Bosnian Serb General saying after Srebrenica massacre 'We have waited for this for 500 years' - reffering to the Ottoman rule ( don't get me wrong i am not trying to jusify any killings - just trying to stress that what 'Turks' did to serbs is still very much fresh in serbian psyche ...


so the things go like u bring up above, the queue is on us...isnt it?
they have waited for this for 500 years...interesting, so what do they all world wait now? such as what France,Algerias,Germany,Russians,Jews,Japans wait for more? should they do now? for the psyche? they gone mad, and killed innocents...But we had made a war with them and we had won...please look at difference.

[Clearday-TRForce]

army to army, not army to people...dont mix please.

[zealot]

Well Bosnia has already a bosniak majority...and recent date shows serbs are decreasing(let's not talk about croats).

I bet you are one of those who will fled from Europe when we'll be a clear majority.

May I add there are 500000 of us abroad.Some will stay abroad but alot will return.

But what are u afraid of?
Are u one of those who are scared of muslims?

We have already been there more than 500 years and we still didn't declare any jihad... :roll:



edit:

in fact that's wrong we declared one against ottomans in the late 19th century

If u r reffering to me

... not muslims, but muslim fundamentalists, of course, same goes for christian fundamentalists, and so on ....

But what worrys me, is when i see Muslim youth, born & bred in the Western hemisphere, condoning(some even fully supporting) jihad and fundamentalism, that is much more widespred and prevailing amongst muslim youth than christian youth, i know that for a fact. In the muslim countries, in the middle east, it is quite understandable (to an extent of course), it stems form poverty, uneducation 'medrasa' brain-washing & Israeli oppression of Palestinians

[Clearday-TRForce]

The Ruling Knez (Prince) of Serbia, Lazar Hrebeljanović raised an army amounting to about equal of the total Ottoman force, not just a Serb army but a real Balkan coalition. He received help from his neighbouring countries, most notably from Bosnia, Hungary, Albania, and even had a contingent of mercenaries made up mostly of Saxons (Germans). Sultan Murad I also gathered a coalition of soldiers and volunteers from neighboring countries in Anatolia and Rumelia, including the forces of Serbian prince Marko Kraljević to face the Crusade.

The army marched out to meet the Ottomans at the so-called "Field of Blackbirds" or Kosovo Polje. The battle started with Serbian noble and Lazar's sons-in-law General Vuk Branković on one wing, Lazar in the center, and Captain Miloš Obilić (a.k.a. Kobilic, Kopilic, Kopili) and Lord Ivan Kosančić commanding the third wing of the Christian army.

Opposite the Christians, Sultan Murad I led his Ottoman army of about the same size as the Serbian army. The two armies clashed and the Ottomans immediately gained the upper hand, especially because of the wing commanded by Beyazid I. But, as the day progressed, it seemed the Christians were gaining a tactical advantage. The two wings pushed forward and each side made their way into the Ottoman camp. But, the center army under Prince Lazar (a.k.a. "Tsar Lazar") was being stopped. This army was being beaten so badly that Lazar was caught in the melee and killed in battle. Tvrtko who had made a previous deal with the Turks betrayed the Serbs at this point and retreated. The other two armies fought on. Eventually the two sides had beat each other into the ground.

During the battle Captain Miloš Obilić went into the tent of Sultan Murad I, posing as a traitor and offering his knights and his loyalty. As he pledged allegiance, he stood up and slashed the Sultan's stomach open with a dagger. Murad died and Milos Obilic gave his head for his country, Serbia. This marked the Ottoman army's probable victory.


it s about military, not a "genocide"

[zealot]

army to army, not army to people...dont mix please.

I think you are living in denial ...

[Clearday-TRForce]

army to army, not army to people...dont mix please.

I think you are living in denial ...

like as you did "Algerian genocide"...actually I dont feel myself denying something here...the issue is about war between armies...We were more strong and we had won,they lost. so you call all these issues it was not a military issue, it s a guilty to humanity. And could you explain me same things like "100 years war", "30 years war" in the midlle of Europe...you discuss "empires"...it s so strange to put all these things into same basket.

Genocide-wars-massacres-military...for me, you mix...but this s surely my opinion, as you said above "rightous side"...

[Inquisitor]

If u r reffering to me

... not muslims, but muslim fundamentalists, of course, same goes for christian fundamentalists, and so on ....

But what worrys me, is when i see Muslim youth, born & bred in the Western hemisphere, condoning(some even fully supporting) jihad and fundamentalism, that is much more widespred and prevailing amongst muslim youth than christian youth, i know that for a fact. In the muslim countries, in the middle east, it is quite understandable (to an extent of course), it stems form poverty, uneducation 'medrasa' brain-washing & Israeli oppression of Palestinians

Well I am scared of those too..I think everyone is...before the war Bosnia was a wealthy country...and because if war some fundamentalist groups arrived...**** war...

[zealot]

army to army, not army to people...dont mix please.

I think you are living in denial ...

like as you did "Algerian genocide"...actually I dont feel myself denying something here...the issue is about war between armies...We were more strong and we had won,they lost. so you call all these issues it was not a military issue, it s a guilty to humanity. And could you explain me same things like "100 years war", "30 years war" in the midlle of Europe...you discuss "empires"...it s so strange to put all these things into same basket.

Genocide-wars-massacres-military...for me, you mix...but this s surely my opinion, as you said above "rightous side"...

I am not trying to offend you, but half of the time i am not exactly sure what you are trying to say, i have to dechiper it ...

...'algerian genocide', where did that one come form... lol


We were more strong and we had won,they lost.

That doesn't mean you had the right to kill/torture anyone who spoke their mind or to pick out the most intelligent Serb kids and take them to Istanbul and convert them to islam ...

[Clearday-TRForce]

it s irrelevant again. you discuss "empires"...we discuss "genocides" in the middle of europe in 1990s...

[Clearday-TRForce]

zealot, I dont really understand what you discuss with me.

you try to imply; they have made these horrible things due to "Turks".Does it sense for you?

[zealot]

OFF TOPIC:

it's really sad that people that share most of their cultural identity, have such a similar mentality, have such similar looks, can't get along, just for the sheer fact that they are geographically next to one another & they have 'bad' history because weapons and armies didn't have a global-reach at the time, so instead they fought their neoghbours ... just a thought ...

[Inquisitor]

call me dumb but I didn't understand what u said...probably my bad english but really I didn't understand

[zealot]

zealot, I dont really understand what you discuss with me.

you try to imply; they have made these horrible things due to "Turks".Does it sense for you?

... you misread or misinterpreted my post, that is far from what i am trying to say, i was just trying to underline 'irony' in you stratement 'we will never forget', but don't worry man life is too short, chill ;) ....

[Clearday-TRForce]

OFF TOPIC:

it's really sad that people that share most of their cultural identity, have such a similar mentality, have such similar looks, can't get along, just for the sheer fact that they are geographically next to one another & they have 'bad' history because weapons and armies didn't have a global-reach at the time, so instead they fought their neoghbours ... just a thought ...



surely, you are right but it s as u say "off topic". I have entered to post here due to some people s crap opinions about "Bosnian massacres=Serb massacres" issue...doesnt it silly "equilibrium" ? nonsense.
they struggle to hidden all these "killings" in the same basket...

[zealot]

call me dumb but I didn't understand what u said...probably my bad english but really I didn't understand

No worries, i was reffering to any conflicting parties around the world, you will always find that it's mainly neighbours(that share so many traits/culture/identity) fighting one another ... :(

[Clearday-TRForce]

you are right zealot...


but to the relevant people around...

We will not forget SREBRENICA

[achilles]

Forgive me for interrupting the crescento of the retarded monkey but Inquisitor is waiting for an answer, which is more of a clarification of my stance on the was in Bosnia.
Inquisitor, first let me help the situation by saying that the fact the Croats and Bosnians sided with the Nazis in WWII is beyond any refutation, and I believe noone can argue that. Given that, the Bosnian/Croat axis is responsible for a numerous deaths of allies as well as Serbs during their struggle against the axis of evil. If you really want to stick to the numbers I wont follow you in that game. You sided with the Nazis, and fought for them. Period. If you ask me, your alliance with the Nazis-that contributed to the creation of hatred among you- combined with religious differences and the collapse of Yugoslavia is what sparked the conflict.

This sums up my view of the conflict:

Which brings us to the morality of this whole situation. Who, if anyone, is right? There can be no doubt that the Serbian government under Slobodan Milosovic was the prime catalyst in this affair, aided and abetted by a lot of Serbian citizens. The attrocities in Bosnia are all the evidence we need for this. But as in the Bosnian situation, where Muslims and Croats participated in attrocities, so too have the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA)in Kosovo.http://www.nccg.org/gnpk/serbia.html


Have you ever heard of the Naser Oric (the Bosnian Muslim paramilitaries) photo collection of human heads? I am sure you do and its better to avoid posting such graphic artistic collections here. More on the Bosnian saints and their view of how to treat detainees, from the United Nations:

1. Cruel treatment:
a. Between 24 September 1992 and 16 October 1992, the following Serb individuals were detained under conditions described as in paragraph 23, at the Srebrenica Police Station:
i. Nedeljko RADIC, born 15 July 1951, was assaulted with various objects including wooden poles and iron bars. He was punched and kicked all over his body. He was beaten about the head with an iron bar. His teeth were forcibly extracted using rusty pliers. A soldier urinated into his injured mouth and he was forced to swallow the urine. He bled from his mouth and his nose. His teeth were broken and his ribs were fractured.
ii. Slavoljub ZIKIC called Drago, born 18 May 1935, was punched with fists and kicked with boots. He was also beaten with rifle butts. In some instances, he was beaten into a state of unconsciousness. His ribs were fractured and his teeth in his upper jaw were broken. One of his shoulders was broken. As a consequence of the beatings, his hearing and vision are badly impaired.
iii. Zoran BRANKOVIC, born in 1975, Nevenko BUBANJ called Slavenko, date of birth unknown and Veselin SARAC, born 17 November 1938, were punched and kicked all over their bodies. They were beaten with various objects including wooden poles and iron bars.
b. Between 15 December 1992 and 20 March 1993, the following Serb individuals were first detained in the Srebrenica Police Station and later transferred to the building behind the Srebrenica Municipal Building. They were detained under the conditions described in paragraph 23:
i. Ilija IVANOVIC, born 1 February 1962, was beaten with bare fists, wooden poles, metal bars, baseball bats and kicked with boots. He was stabbed with knives. He was beaten all over his body. His ribs were fractured; his teeth, his nose and his cheekbone were broken. His head was smashed against the metal bars on the door and on concrete walls. On numerous occasions, as a result of these beatings, he fell into a state of unconsciousness.
ii. Ratko NIKOLIC, born 12 July 1945, (a Serb civilian), was subjected to severe beatings. He was beaten with wooden poles, baseball bats, and metal bars. He was kicked and punched and stabbed with knives. As a result of these beatings his ribs were fractured and on numerous occasions he fell into a state of unconsciousness.
iii. Rado PEJIC called Miso, born 27 March 1956, (a Serb civilian), was subjected to severe beatings. He was beaten with wooden sticks, wooden poles, baseball bats, metal bars and rifle butts. He was punched and kicked and beaten all over his body. On numerous occasions, he was beaten into a state of unconsciousness. As a result of the beatings and inhumane treatment he lost such a significant portion of his body weight that he was unable to walk and had to be exchanged on a stretcher.
iv. Stanko MITROVIC called Cane, date of birth unknown, Miloje OBRADOVIC, date of birth unknown and Mile TRIFUNOVIC, born in 1920, (all Serb civilians), were subjected to severe beatings. They were beaten with wooden sticks, wooden poles, baseball bats, metal bars and rifle butts. They were kicked and punched and beaten all over their bodies. On numerous occasions, they were beaten into a state of unconsciousness.
25. Killings:
a. On or about 25 September 1992, Dragutin KUKIC, born 12 May 1934, a Serb, who was detained in the Srebrenica Police Station under the conditions described in paragraph 23, was beaten to death.
b. Between 6 February and 20 March 1993, the following Serb individuals, who were detained in the building behind the Srebrenica Municipal Building under the conditions described in paragraph 23, were killed: Jakov DOKIC, born in 1972, Dragan ILIC, born in 1975, Milisav MILOVANOVIC called Mico, born in 1950, Kostadin POPOVIC, born 20 September 1947, Branko SEKULIC, born 1 January 1967 and Bogdan ZIVANOVIC, born 14 October 1930.
You can see other Bosnian acts of love and self-defense in this very interesting UN page:
http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/ori-ii030328e.htm
You were blatantly denying that Bosnians have done nothing compared to the Serbs. This bubble has been burst by a Bosnian General, who resigned:

Bosnian General is accusing the Bosnian president of allowing the killings and attrocities against the Bosnian Serbs in the Sarajevo during the civil war. As an act of the protest he is returning his rank as brigadier general of the AR BiH (Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, known during the war as BMA - Bosnian Muslim Army).No wonder why:
http://www.balkanpeace.org/cib/bos/bosi/bosi02.html

Here is a small sample of what your Croat buddies, with whom you were fighting side by side, did to Serbian civilians:

CROATIAN SOLDIERS KILL 12 SERB CIVILIANS IN KRAJINA B e l g r a d e, Oct. 2 (Tanjug) - Croatian soldiers have committed another crime by killing 12 Serb elderly in a Krajina village captured in Croatia's August aggression. The AP news agency quoted representatives of the Croatian Helsinki Watch Committee as saying Sunday that the latest crime had been committed in the village of Varivode southwest of Knin against people aged between 60 and 85. Ivan Zvonimir Cicak of the Croatian Helsinki Committee, who toured the completely devastated village of Varivode with a group of activists, was quoted as saying that the Committee had reliable information based on eyewitness accounts. Cicak said that among those identified were the bodies of Jovan Beric, 75, and his wife Milka Beric, 71, and of another six Berics. He said that among the elderly people who had been killed were also married couples Djukic and Pokrajac. Cicak said on arrival to the village that his group had found traces of blood and tissue. He added that the group had information that the bodies had been taken away and secretly buried. Commenting on Cicak's reports on the Varivode crime, U.N. Spokesman Alun Roberts said that U.N. representatives also had information about this and were trying to verify them.
More…
U.N. HAS EVIDENCE ON CROATIA'S MASSACRE OF SERB CIVILIANS B e l g r a d e, Oct. 2 (Tanjug) - U.N. was in possession of evidence that something terrible happened to the Serb civilians in the village of Varivode near the town of Kistanja (Sector South of the Republic of Serb Krajina), said U.N. Spokesman in Zagreb Chris Gunness Monday. U.N. observers found evidence about a possible mass killing, said Gunness and added that before the investigation was completed he could say nothing further on the massacre. The crime was confirmed by the Croatian authorities, ******* reported and set out that with this confession the Croatian Government has for the first time formally acknowledged there have been mass killings in Serb Krajina.
Click on this link http://www.hri.org/news/balkans/yds/1995/95-10-03_2.yds.html to learn more about the following:
---U.N. CONFIRMS THAT CROATS CONTINUE TO USE VIOLENCE AGAINST SERBS,
---E.U. HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION SAYS KRAJINA CLEANSED OF SERBS,
---LE FIGARO: SERBS ARE ENSLAVED PEOPLE IN CROATIA.

No Bosnians or Bosnian/Croatians participated in those campaigns according to your sources I guess, am I right?

This is from a fairly objective article, that includes the Serbian atrocities against you and others. Yet,

This does not excuse the acts of certain special units of the Bosnian Army, the summary executions of some Serbs in Sarajevo, and the establishment of several concentration camps in which ****** assaults, assassinations, and torture were reportedly regularly practiced.
http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/bosnia.html
Check this out:

Bosnian Muslim forces located in Srebrenica frequently raided the surrounding Serbian villages (NY Times, 6/26/95; The Economist, 7/15-21/95). Ibran Mustafic, Bosnian Muslim MP and founder of SDA (the main Muslim political party) in Srebrenica, claims that these attacks represented purposeful provocations by the Sarajevo government to encourage the Serbian attack on Srebrenica (Interview in Sarajevo daily, Slobodna Bosna, 7/14/96). UN did not stop either side from attacking.
In 1992-93, more than 1500 Bosnian Serbs, mostly civilians from the villages around Srebrenica were killed by Bosnian Muslim fighters (well-documented, with graves in Bratunac). No international outrage followed. Naser Oric, blamed for these brutal killings (indicted by the Serbian authorities in Bosnia), today runs a disco club in the city of Tuzla, Bosnia.And to be fair:

Undocumented number of Bosnian Muslims, mostly soldiers, either murdered or killed in regular fighting. Estimates of murdered Bosnian Muslim men vary from as low as 100 to as high as 12,000. 1,000-3,000 seems most probable, but this is yet to be determined.

And this is why you parallelism to the Holocaust, which is an offense to the Jews of our forum, is, at best, stupid:

Why a comparison to the Holocaust is not appropriate?
-The extent of the war crimes is not comparable.
-Bosnian Muslim women and children from Srebrenica were sent in buses by Serb officials to safety at Tuzla.
-Bosnian Muslims were a warring faction, constantly raiding Bosnian Serb villages around Srebrenica.
-The largest single incident of ethnic cleansing in the 1991-1995 war in former Yugoslavia was the exodus of 250,000 Krajina Serbs by the Croatian forces.
-WWII Nazi in the former Yugoslavia were the Croats and many Muslims. Serbs were the victims of the WWII, together with the Jews and the Roma.http://sane-boston.org/articles/srebrenicaqa.html

All the above are corroborated by Cees Wiebes and his brilliant book ‘Intelligence and the War in Bosnia 1992-1995’, who was granted full access to the top-secret archives of the Dutch intelligence services and the still classified UN archives. Foreign intelligence services also gave him confidential briefings. Wiebes spoke with more than 100 intelligence officials from various countries.
Obviously I am not going to start reproducing his book here, but you can always buy it and read it for yourself. He just proves the duality of this conflict, exactly what I am also stressing out here.
Listen the sources can go on indefinitely, as is the case with the sources that advocate Milosevic’s ethnic cleansing, but there is not point in wasting bandwidth. After all the forum has had enough of those Greco-Turkish and Balkan threads. To make the long story short:
I am not trying to purify the Serbs, I have made that clear right from the start. All I am saying is that ALL sides are responsible for what happened there, irrespective of what the body counts say. Most body counts unfortunately are skewed in order to support NATO’s campaign, this means that NATO propaganda has helped you a lot in deceiving people. Your only valid point is that evidence suggest that the pattern of the Serbian killing was closer to what we call ‘ethnic cleansing’ whereas the same pattern from the Bosnian/Croat side is not so clear and cannot be actually labeled as ‘ethnic cleansing’. Hopefully more evidence will come up on that one.
The truth my friend always finds its way to the surface. The Serbs killed you and you killed the Serbs. You should all be held accountable for what you did and if NATO had to bomb someone that would be the Bosnian, Croats, Serbs and ethnic Albanians, i.e. UCK (KLA). It should have stayed out if you ask me. Since NATO engaged in the first place, it should have bombed the **** out of you all, no exceptions made…too bad only the Serbian civilians paid a heavy price for the atrocities that you ALL committed.
I will take Lokos’ advice and not engage further in another endless pissing contest. I have had enough of it and the forum’s had enough of it. I will gladly take a look at your reply, but don’t expect us to academically resolve one of the most complicated conflicts ever here, in MP.NET.

[Inquisitor]

double post

[Inquisitor]

At least I see you understood srpska-mreza was crap.


Forgive me for interrupting the crescento of the retarded monkey but Inquisitor is waiting for an answer, which is more of a clarification of my stance on the was in Bosnia.
Inquisitor, first let me help the situation by saying that the fact the Croats and Bosnians sided with the Nazis in WWII is beyond any refutation, and I believe noone can argue that. Given that, the Bosnian/Croat axis is responsible for a numerous deaths of allies as well as Serbs during their struggle against the axis of evil. If you really want to stick to the numbers I wont follow you in that game. You sided with the Nazis, and fought for them. Period. If you ask me, your alliance with the Nazis-that contributed to the creation of hatred among you- combined with religious differences and the collapse of Yugoslavia is what sparked the conflict.

let's start with this.

You say numbers are not important,but that we sided with the nazis.
I guess you are stating this because:
1) of the Handzar division.There were 20000 men.So please,don't tell me 20000 men represents one nationality.
3)because Bosnia was a part of NDH(that is Croatia in WW2).Well Bosnia was assigned to Croatia by Hitler when he occupied Yugoslavia.It's like saying Belgium was nazi because it was occupied by Germans.There were nazis?Of course,find me a country who hadn't them.Neverthless the majority of Bosnian muslims was in Partizans,and you know who they fought.[/quote]




This sums up my view of the conflict:

Which brings us to the morality of this whole situation. Who, if anyone, is right? There can be no doubt that the Serbian government under Slobodan Milosovic was the prime catalyst in this affair, aided and abetted by a lot of Serbian citizens. The attrocities in Bosnia are all the evidence we need for this. But as in the Bosnian situation, where Muslims and Croats participated in attrocities, so too have the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA)in Kosovo.http://www.nccg.org/gnpk/serbia.html


Please,did I see only serbs committed atrocities?





Have you ever heard of the Naser Oric (the Bosnian Muslim paramilitaries) photo collection of human heads? I am sure you do and its better to avoid posting such graphic artistic collections here. More on the Bosnian saints and their view of how to treat detainees, from the United Nations:

1. Cruel treatment:
a. Between 24 September 1992 and 16 October 1992, the following Serb individuals were detained under conditions described as in paragraph 23, at the Srebrenica Police Station:
i. Nedeljko RADIC, born 15 July 1951, was assaulted with various objects including wooden poles and iron bars. He was punched and kicked all over his body. He was beaten about the head with an iron bar. His teeth were forcibly extracted using rusty pliers. A soldier urinated into his injured mouth and he was forced to swallow the urine. He bled from his mouth and his nose. His teeth were broken and his ribs were fractured.
ii. Slavoljub ZIKIC called Drago, born 18 May 1935, was punched with fists and kicked with boots. He was also beaten with rifle butts. In some instances, he was beaten into a state of unconsciousness. His ribs were fractured and his teeth in his upper jaw were broken. One of his shoulders was broken. As a consequence of the beatings, his hearing and vision are badly impaired.
iii. Zoran BRANKOVIC, born in 1975, Nevenko BUBANJ called Slavenko, date of birth unknown and Veselin SARAC, born 17 November 1938, were punched and kicked all over their bodies. They were beaten with various objects including wooden poles and iron bars.
b. Between 15 December 1992 and 20 March 1993, the following Serb individuals were first detained in the Srebrenica Police Station and later transferred to the building behind the Srebrenica Municipal Building. They were detained under the conditions described in paragraph 23:
i. Ilija IVANOVIC, born 1 February 1962, was beaten with bare fists, wooden poles, metal bars, baseball bats and kicked with boots. He was stabbed with knives. He was beaten all over his body. His ribs were fractured; his teeth, his nose and his cheekbone were broken. His head was smashed against the metal bars on the door and on concrete walls. On numerous occasions, as a result of these beatings, he fell into a state of unconsciousness.
ii. Ratko NIKOLIC, born 12 July 1945, (a Serb civilian), was subjected to severe beatings. He was beaten with wooden poles, baseball bats, and metal bars. He was kicked and punched and stabbed with knives. As a result of these beatings his ribs were fractured and on numerous occasions he fell into a state of unconsciousness.
iii. Rado PEJIC called Miso, born 27 March 1956, (a Serb civilian), was subjected to severe beatings. He was beaten with wooden sticks, wooden poles, baseball bats, metal bars and rifle butts. He was punched and kicked and beaten all over his body. On numerous occasions, he was beaten into a state of unconsciousness. As a result of the beatings and inhumane treatment he lost such a significant portion of his body weight that he was unable to walk and had to be exchanged on a stretcher.
iv. Stanko MITROVIC called Cane, date of birth unknown, Miloje OBRADOVIC, date of birth unknown and Mile TRIFUNOVIC, born in 1920, (all Serb civilians), were subjected to severe beatings. They were beaten with wooden sticks, wooden poles, baseball bats, metal bars and rifle butts. They were kicked and punched and beaten all over their bodies. On numerous occasions, they were beaten into a state of unconsciousness.
25. Killings:
a. On or about 25 September 1992, Dragutin KUKIC, born 12 May 1934, a Serb, who was detained in the Srebrenica Police Station under the conditions described in paragraph 23, was beaten to death.
b. Between 6 February and 20 March 1993, the following Serb individuals, who were detained in the building behind the Srebrenica Municipal Building under the conditions described in paragraph 23, were killed: Jakov DOKIC, born in 1972, Dragan ILIC, born in 1975, Milisav MILOVANOVIC called Mico, born in 1950, Kostadin POPOVIC, born 20 September 1947, Branko SEKULIC, born 1 January 1967 and Bogdan ZIVANOVIC, born 14 October 1930.
You can see other Bosnian acts of love and self-defense in this very interesting UN page:
http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/ori-ii030328e.htm



please read better my posts.I already told you about Naser Oric.

I asked you for some atrocities committed by the central government.



You were blatantly denying that Bosnians have done nothing compared to the Serbs.
I am starting to wonder if you read my posts



This bubble has been burst by a Bosnian General, who resigned:

Bosnian General is accusing the Bosnian president of allowing the killings and attrocities against the Bosnian Serbs in the Sarajevo during the civil war. As an act of the protest he is returning his rank as brigadier general of the AR BiH (Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, known during the war as BMA - Bosnian Muslim Army).No wonder why:
http://www.balkanpeace.org/cib/bos/bosi/bosi02.html

I asked for non-biased sites,but anyways,I already told you there were isolated crimes.I never denied that.


Here is a small sample of what your Croat buddies, with whom you were fighting side by side, did to Serbian civilians:

CROATIAN SOLDIERS KILL 12 SERB CIVILIANS IN KRAJINA B e l g r a d e, Oct. 2 (Tanjug) - Croatian soldiers have committed another crime by killing 12 Serb elderly in a Krajina village captured in Croatia's August aggression. The AP news agency quoted representatives of the Croatian Helsinki Watch Committee as saying Sunday that the latest crime had been committed in the village of Varivode southwest of Knin against people aged between 60 and 85. Ivan Zvonimir Cicak of the Croatian Helsinki Committee, who toured the completely devastated village of Varivode with a group of activists, was quoted as saying that the Committee had reliable information based on eyewitness accounts. Cicak said that among those identified were the bodies of Jovan Beric, 75, and his wife Milka Beric, 71, and of another six Berics. He said that among the elderly people who had been killed were also married couples Djukic and Pokrajac. Cicak said on arrival to the village that his group had found traces of blood and tissue. He added that the group had information that the bodies had been taken away and secretly buried. Commenting on Cicak's reports on the Varivode crime, U.N. Spokesman Alun Roberts said that U.N. representatives also had information about this and were trying to verify them.
More…
U.N. HAS EVIDENCE ON CROATIA'S MASSACRE OF SERB CIVILIANS B e l g r a d e, Oct. 2 (Tanjug) - U.N. was in possession of evidence that something terrible happened to the Serb civilians in the village of Varivode near the town of Kistanja (Sector South of the Republic of Serb Krajina), said U.N. Spokesman in Zagreb Chris Gunness Monday. U.N. observers found evidence about a possible mass killing, said Gunness and added that before the investigation was completed he could say nothing further on the massacre. The crime was confirmed by the Croatian authorities, ******* reported and set out that with this confession the Croatian Government has for the first time formally acknowledged there have been mass killings in Serb Krajina.
Click on this link http://www.hri.org/news/balkans/yds/1995/95-10-03_2.yds.html to learn more about the following:
---U.N. CONFIRMS THAT CROATS CONTINUE TO USE VIOLENCE AGAINST SERBS,
---E.U. HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION SAYS KRAJINA CLEANSED OF SERBS,
---LE FIGARO: SERBS ARE ENSLAVED PEOPLE IN CROATIA.

No Bosnians or Bosnian/Croatians participated in those campaigns according to your sources I guess, am I right?

I never talked about Croatia and croats,I find silly hearing you talking about them,and I won't comment them.



This is from a fairly objective article, that includes the Serbian atrocities against you and others. Yet,

This does not excuse the acts of certain special units of the Bosnian Army, the summary executions of some Serbs in Sarajevo, and the establishment of several concentration camps in which ****** assaults, assassinations, and torture were reportedly regularly practiced.
http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/bosnia.html


I told you I need proofs of orders of mass killings of civillians.This acts says it,certain civillian.

May I add this,taken from your site.


In an exhaustive report to the United Nations, a special Commission of
Experts, chaired by Cherif Bassiouni of DePaul University in Chicago, concluded that globally 90 percent of the crimes committed in Bosnia-Herzegovina were the responsibility of Serb extremists, 6 percent by Croat extremists, and 4 percent by Muslim extremists. These conform roughly to an assessment drafted by the American CIA.



Check this out:

Bosnian Muslim forces located in Srebrenica frequently raided the surrounding Serbian villages (NY Times, 6/26/95; The Economist, 7/15-21/95). Ibran Mustafic, Bosnian Muslim MP and founder of SDA (the main Muslim political party) in Srebrenica, claims that these attacks represented purposeful provocations by the Sarajevo government to encourage the Serbian attack on Srebrenica (Interview in Sarajevo daily, Slobodna Bosna, 7/14/96). UN did not stop either side from attacking.
In 1992-93, more than 1500 Bosnian Serbs, mostly civilians from the villages around Srebrenica were killed by Bosnian Muslim fighters (well-documented, with graves in Bratunac). No international outrage followed. Naser Oric, blamed for these brutal killings (indicted by the Serbian authorities in Bosnia), today runs a disco club in the city of Tuzla, Bosnia.

I already told you about Naser Oric,and I don't understand why you purposely talk about him.


And to be fair:

Undocumented number of Bosnian Muslims, mostly soldiers, either murdered or killed in regular fighting. Estimates of murdered Bosnian Muslim men vary from as low as 100 to as high as 12,000. 1,000-3,000 seems most probable, but this is yet to be determined.

I need not your faireness,I know what happened.


And this is why you parallelism to the Holocaust, which is an offense to the Jews of our forum, is, at best, stupid:

Why a comparison to the Holocaust is not appropriate?
-The extent of the war crimes is not comparable.
-Bosnian Muslim women and children from Srebrenica were sent in buses by Serb officials to safety at Tuzla.
-Bosnian Muslims were a warring faction, constantly raiding Bosnian Serb villages around Srebrenica.
-The largest single incident of ethnic cleansing in the 1991-1995 war in former Yugoslavia was the exodus of 250,000 Krajina Serbs by the Croatian forces.
-WWII Nazi in the former Yugoslavia were the Croats and many Muslims. Serbs were the victims of the WWII, together with the Jews and the Roma.http://sane-boston.org/articles/srebrenicaqa.html


Please not serbian sites.
Btw...At least those 200000 are alive.I won't comment other points too.


All the above are corroborated by Cees Wiebes and his brilliant book ‘Intelligence and the War in Bosnia 1992-1995’, who was granted full access to the top-secret archives of the Dutch intelligence services and the still classified UN archives. Foreign intelligence services also gave him confidential briefings. Wiebes spoke with more than 100 intelligence officials from various countries.
Obviously I am not going to start reproducing his book here, but you can always buy it and read it for yourself. He just proves the duality of this conflict, exactly what I am also stressing out here.

What you mean with duality?

Listen the sources can go on indefinitely, as is the case with the sources that advocate Milosevic’s ethnic cleansing, but there is not point in wasting bandwidth. After all the forum has had enough of those Greco-Turkish and Balkan threads. To make the long story short:
I am not trying to purify the Serbs, I have made that clear right from the start. All I am saying is that ALL sides are responsible for what happened there, irrespective of what the body counts say. Most body counts unfortunately are skewed in order to support NATO’s campaign, this means that NATO propaganda has helped you a lot in deceiving people. Your only valid point is that evidence suggest that the pattern of the Serbian killing was closer to what we call ‘ethnic cleansing’ whereas the same pattern from the Bosnian/Croat side is not so clear and cannot be actually labeled as ‘ethnic cleansing’. Hopefully more evidence will come up on that one.

Here is where we cannot agree the body count IS ESSENTIAL!You want to blame USA for the crimes committed in WW2?Now we should put USA on the same Nazi level?

The truth my friend always finds its way to the surface. The Serbs killed you and you killed the Serbs. You should all be held accountable for what you did and if NATO had to bomb someone that would be the Bosnian, Croats, Serbs and ethnic Albanians, i.e. UCK (KLA). It should have stayed out if you ask me. Since NATO engaged in the first place, it should have bombed the **** out of you all, no exceptions made…too bad only the Serbian civilians paid a heavy price for the atrocities that you ALL committed.

This would have been fair,taken the percentage taken from above.
90 bombs on serbs,6 on croats and 4 on us.

I will take Lokos’ advice and not engage further in another endless pissing contest. I have had enough of it and the forum’s had enough of it. I will gladly take a look at your reply, but don’t expect us to academically resolve one of the most complicated conflicts ever here, in MP.NET.


A constructive debate is all I want tough I agree with Lokos that none of us will ever change his opinion.

[achilles]

At least I see you understood srpska-mreza was crap.

I never denied its tendency to stretch their numbers a bit, but still, your ferocious criticism says not much given that you havent come up with anything credible apart from a vague threat that you will post a video, as if you will make any sort of valid statement even if you do.
In any case i must say that i am equally glad to see you silently aknowledge that your parallelism to the Holocause was unfortunate, and thats to put it very mildly. Lets move on...




You say numbers are not important,but that we sided with the nazis.
I guess you are stating this because:
1) of the Handzar division.There were 20000 men.So please,don't tell me 20000 men represents one nationality.
3)because Bosnia was a part of NDH(that is Croatia in WW2).Well Bosnia was assigned to Croatia by Hitler when he occupied Yugoslavia.It's like saying Belgium was nazi because it was occupied by Germans.There were nazis?Of course,find me a country who hadn't them.Neverthless the majority of Bosnian muslims was in Partizans,and you know who they fought.

No i think numbers are important but if we stick too much to them as far as this conflict is concerned we will miss the point.
Well, 20,000 men is not a negligible division given that Bosnia has a populace of about 4 million, if i remember correctly? I am positive that if Greece had sent 20,000 troops to back up Hitler i would definitely STFU when talking about WWII. Yet, the specific division is only part of the story, which you so carefully choose to chop:

The Bosnians, the Croates, and the Albanians (Kosovites) all supported the Nazis in WWII, and slaughtered Serbians, who supported the the Allies in resisting Hitler.



15. Nazi's "SS Handzar Division" and Srebrenica
Nazi collaborators in BH, which belonged to Independent State of Croatia, or a puppet state of Fascist Germany, were called "SS Handzar Division" of Ustasha. The Division was established in February 1943, by the order of Hitler and with the blessing of Jerusalem Mufti, Hitler's close associate, in order to fight against Tito's partisans. The role of "SS Handzar Division" was to eradicate Serbs, and it consisted of 20,000 soldiers, mainly Muslims . The techniques of terror that it used were appallingly cruel, being inherited from Turks in the period of Ottoman Empire . According to Florentin Manuel , the most usual techniques were raping women, removing eyes and cutting ********s of alive men, and the action of "SS Handzar" was more like an armed band than a military unit . It is said that their cruelty was such that even German SS officers accused actions of those people . Srebrenica area was under the direct assault of this "SS Handzar Division" during World War II.

16. Alija Izetbegovic (President of Bosnian Muslims) and Srebrenica
In the history of Srebrenica, Alija Izetbegovic, the current President of Bosnia and Hercegovina, is the person who connects the present and the World War II. During the World War II, he was a main actor for "SS Handzar Division". He joined the organization "Young Muslims" in Sarajevo on March 5, 1943, and was engaged as a member of the organization in recruiting young Muslims for "SS Handzar Division" in collaboration with Hitler's intelligence service (ABWER and GESTAPO). In 1946, however, he was sentenced by former Yugoslav Supreme Military Court to three years of imprisonment and two years of deprivation of civil rights, because of his fascist activities . This criminal record of Izetbegovic was published by Russian gazette "Izvestija" dated 17 November of 1992.

"Islamic Declaration" was another criminal record of Izetbegovic. Having shown his fundamentalism or intolerance of other religions ", he was sentenced to twelve years imprisonment by Supreme Court of Bosnia on March 14, 1983. However, in spite of the prohibition of its publication, "Islamic Declaration" was reprinted in 1990. Two years later, it seemed that he began to resume the activities of "SS Handzar" based on his Islamic fundamentalism particularly in Srebrenica area, intentionally or unintentionally.
http://www.balkanpeace.org/cib/bos/boss/boss13.shtml

You cannot just erase that part of your history Inquisitor. Tell us what Izetbegovic, a nazi collaborator, meant for modern Bosnia...it would all have been so much easier if you had said something like 'hey noone is perfect, our grandads sided with the Germans'. Modern states, whose open-minded citizens look only forward, have absolutely no problem in dealing with their pasts, no matter how dark this may be. The Germans are a very good example of decent acceptance and humility.



Please,did I see only serbs committed atrocities?

No, you didnt bother taking a good look at my source.


please read better my posts.I already told you about Naser Oric.

And this means that the Naser Oric case is closed? Hold your horses and let me back up my posts they way i like and think its best.


I am starting to wonder if you read my posts

I do, and i see a lot of cherry picking, unfortunate parallelisms and futile questions. Are you sure you are reading mine carefully?


I asked for non-biased sites,but anyways,I already told you there were isolated crimes.I never denied that.

The bunch of sources i have you does not suggest that they were isolated crimes. They were massive crimes although they do not fullfill the definition of an organized 'ethnic cleansing'. I think i made that clear already. Go back and re-read what the United Nations have to say on that one and the other source with the body counts/estimations i gave you.


I never talked about Croatia and croats,I find silly hearing you talking about them,and I won't comment them.

You are free to comment on what suits you best :lol: . The thing is that you fought side by side with the Croats and actively participated to their slaughtering. After all you were collaborating ever since WWII ;)


I told you I need proofs of orders of mass killings of civillians.This acts says it,certain civillian.

Here is a hint:

Major population shifts caused by the conflicts have drastically altered the previous ethnic make-up of all of the republics. In an effort to "ethnically cleanse" territories, particularly in Bosnia and later in Kosovo, entire populations were forcibly ejected from their homes. In Croatia, the government drove out over 200,000 ethnic Serbs from the province of Krajina in an effort to create an ethnically pure Croatia. In Bosnia, Bosnian Croats, Bosnian Muslims, and Bosnian Serbs pushed each other out as they claimed new territories. In Kosovo, hundreds of thousands of Albanians were driven out of the province by the Serbian government, prompting the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999. Mass killings among all sides became a common way to permanently remove entire populations. IMI's Balkan Archive contains numerous statements from survivors and refugees describing the use of torture, rape, murder, and forced relocation.


I already told you about Naser Oric,and I don't understand why you purposely talk about him.

If you dont understand then i am afraid this is not my problem. Perhaps because the story backs up my claims?



Undocumented number of Bosnian Muslims, mostly soldiers, either murdered or killed in regular fighting. Estimates of murdered Bosnian Muslim men vary from as low as 100 to as high as 12,000. 1,000-3,000 seems most probable, but this is yet to be determined.

I need not your faireness,I know what happened.

:petting: You are not the only one watching this argument i am afraid. Its good for people to know...organized or not, dictated by the central government or not the body counts definitely put more blame to the Serbs, yet the Bosnian/Albanian/Croatian bubble of 'Serbs being the true devils on this one' is burst within seconds.


Please not serbian sites.
please this please that. You ask for too much, but give very little apart from a threat on posting some video or something...write your own posts and let me write mine. In analogy, no Israeli site can be credible when it comes to the Holocaust, and in equal terms, no Bosnian site can be objective regarding the war in Bosnia. Your logic is severely flawed. Indeed, there are crap sites all over the place, from both sides, but there are seeds of truth and objectivity in others.


Btw...At least those 200000 are alive.I won't comment other points too.
Again, choosing not to comment certain things is clearly up to you, and enhances my point that there are very obscure aspects of the so-called 'Bosnian innocence'.


What you mean with duality?

I mean what i have been trying to pass through ever since my first post on this thread. That attrocities were committed by both sides-and i frankly give no **** on who gave the orders, yet that seems very important to you- and that since NATO decided to intervene it should have bombed the living hell out of everyone, no exceptions made. But why NATO did what it did is a whole new conversation so i will leave it to that.


Here is where we cannot agree the body count IS ESSENTIAL!You want to blame USA for the crimes committed in WW2?Now we should put USA on the same Nazi level?

This is an irrelevant, moronic and out of the blue question that i do not really understand.



This would have been fair,taken the percentage taken from above.
90 bombs on serbs,6 on croats and 4 on us.

I dont know how much those percentages are valid to be honest, even coming from 'western' sources that i used, given that NATO had and still has every incentive to skew the numbers in favour of you, the Croats and the Albanians. That justifies even more their unfair and vicious campaign. Leaving the percentages aside, the only ones that paid the price of the NATO bombings were the Serbian civilians...



A constructive debate is all I want tough I agree with Lokos that none of us will ever change his opinion.

I am not trying to change anyone's opinion.I am just expressing mine.
Oh and read the book i told you about and tell me what you think ;)

All in all, it is still somewhat early to raw 100% safe inference on the body counts, since the deaths caused by the Serbians have been more or less revealed by the NATO/US propagand whereas your 'unfortunate acts that take place in all wars' have been very carefully hidden. I am wondering what else is in those UN top-secret archives and the archives of other intelligenve agencies...primarily the British and the Americans ones.
I might be wrong of course, but i have a hunch that your record will get darker as soon as more intelligenve is revealed. I am stabding by....you seem to have settled in for good....

[achilles]

army to army, not army to people...dont mix please.

I think you are living in denial ...

:lol: Is it a coincidence that we all reach the same conclusions? :lol:

[Inquisitor]

I never denied its tendency to stretch their numbers a bit, but still, your ferocious criticism says not much given that you havent come up with anything credible apart from a vague threat that you will post a video, as if you will make any sort of valid statement even if you do.
In any case i must say that i am equally glad to see you silently aknowledge that your parallelism to the Holocause was unfortunate, and thats to put it very mildly. Lets move on...

wow man I am impressed.:D
I didn't know English tought in Greek schools was so bad :lol:I never said I changed my opinion about holocaust,I said that for some points it was the same.Actually,the number of deads is probably not the only point they share;)

but I guess you are really pissed of seeing you cannot rely on your beautiful Serbian BS sites :lol:




No i think numbers are important but if we stick too much to them as far as this conflict is concerned we will miss the point.
Well, 20,000 men is not a negligible division given that Bosnia has a populace of about 4 million, if i remember correctly? I am positive that if Greece had sent 20,000 troops to back up Hitler i would definitely STFU when talking about WWII. Yet, the specific division is only part of the story, which you so carefully choose to chop:

Well man I got some news that could shock you:The Hanjar divison was not formed excusevely by Bosnian muslims!:D

there were croats and albanians as well.

And btw in September 1943 the Hanjar division was the only SS division that mutinated.

Nontheless you are trying to portrait Bonians as a group that widely accepted nazism.It is quite the opposite.Of course in the Bosnia parts under the Croatian government a lot were brainwashed (a lot forced,some even kidnapped) but overall the Bosnian muslims widely joined partizans.


Of course many partisans in Croatia and Bosnia were ethnic Serbs, but many were from other nationalities -- in Croatia, 61% of partisans were Croats and 28% Serbs. While figures do not exist for Bosnia, a large proportion were also Muslims, who were being slaughtered by all sides.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1999/353/353p15.htm
now partizans in Bosnia were more than 100000.You tell me ;)




The Bosnians, the Croates, and the Albanians (Kosovites) all supported the Nazis in WWII, and slaughtered Serbians, who supported the the Allies in resisting Hitler.

please man.This is the biggest BS I have ever hears.Never heard of Nedic?The commander of Nazi Serbia?Do you know what is the primate Belgrade helds?;)

Belgrade was the first city in occupied europe to be 100% cleansed of jews.Never heard of chetniks?The ones who first mde some guerrilla actions against nazis and than when ****ed by partisans fully cooperated with them?Never heard of the massacre in Foca?Well,these massacres were made by yours non-nazi serbs ;)




15. Nazi's "SS Handzar Division" and Srebrenica
Nazi collaborators in BH, which belonged to Independent State of Croatia, or a puppet state of Fascist Germany, were called "SS Handzar Division" of Ustasha. The Division was established in February 1943, by the order of Hitler and with the blessing of Jerusalem Mufti, Hitler's close associate, in order to fight against Tito's partisans. The role of "SS Handzar Division" was to eradicate Serbs, and it consisted of 20,000 soldiers, mainly Muslims . The techniques of terror that it used were appallingly cruel, being inherited from Turks in the period of Ottoman Empire . According to Florentin Manuel , the most usual techniques were raping women, removing eyes and cutting ********s of alive men, and the action of "SS Handzar" was more like an armed band than a military unit . It is said that their cruelty was such that even German SS officers accused actions of those people . Srebrenica area was under the direct assault of this "SS Handzar Division" during World War II.

Yea,their role was etnic cleansing of serbs,pure BS.


16. Alija Izetbegovic (President of Bosnian Muslims) and Srebrenica
In the history of Srebrenica, Alija Izetbegovic, the current President of Bosnia and Hercegovina, is the person who connects the present and the World War II. During the World War II, he was a main actor for "SS Handzar Division". He joined the organization "Young Muslims" in Sarajevo on March 5, 1943, and was engaged as a member of the organization in recruiting young Muslims for "SS Handzar Division" in collaboration with Hitler's intelligence service (ABWER and GESTAPO). In 1946, however, he was sentenced by former Yugoslav Supreme Military Court to three years of imprisonment and two years of deprivation of civil rights, because of his fascist activities . This criminal record of Izetbegovic was published by Russian gazette "Izvestija" dated 17 November of 1992.
Lol.Russies are so reliable when serbs are involved...strange these documents were never found before 1992...when the war occured... :roll:


"Islamic Declaration" was another criminal record of Izetbegovic. Having shown his fundamentalism or intolerance of other religions ", he was sentenced to twelve years imprisonment by Supreme Court of Bosnia on March 14, 1983. However, in spite of the prohibition of its publication, "Islamic Declaration" was reprinted in 1990. Two years later, it seemed that he began to resume the activities of "SS Handzar" based on his Islamic fundamentalism particularly in Srebrenica area, intentionally or unintentionally.
http://www.balkanpeace.org/cib/bos/boss/boss13.shtml

I see you continue to relay on biased sites.Nontheless,I will respond to you,the Islamic declaration in fatc NEVER TALKS ABOUT BOSNIA it says to accomplish an islamic state it must be a fully muslim state therefore Bosnia is immediately excluded.;)


You cannot just erase that part of your history Inquisitor. Tell us what Izetbegovic, a nazi collaborator, meant for modern Bosnia...it would all have been so much easier if you had said something like 'hey noone is perfect, our grandads sided with the Germans'. Modern states, whose open-minded citizens look only forward, have absolutely no problem in dealing with their pasts, no matter how dark this may be. The Germans are a very good example of decent acceptance and humility.

Noone is erasing it,but a lot are exagerating it.There was an SS division of not even 20000 bosnian muslims 20000 were the actual soldiers,you must think of croats and albanians aswell ;).
Partisans were the side with the bigger percentage of Bosnian muslim forces.So cry me a river,but you cannot change history this way...



No, you didnt bother taking a good look at my source.
I did.


And this means that the Naser Oric case is closed? Hold your horses and let me back up my posts they way i like and think its best.


hehe actually I am glad that everybody is bitching about a paramilitary group not under our direct command.That is exactly what I said.A bunch of thugs who committed war crimes.

P.S.

how come Naser Oric is in the Hague and Mladic is not?


I do, and i see a lot of cherry picking, unfortunate parallelisms and futile questions. Are you sure you are reading mine carefully?

yeas but it's boring... man I ask you non biased sites,and you give me biased,I tell you give me some proofs etnic cleansing was organized by our side and you don't give me..you know,it's getting bored...


The bunch of sources i have you does not suggest that they were isolated crimes. They were massive crimes although they do not fullfill the definition of an organized 'ethnic cleansing'. I think i made that clear already. Go back and re-read what the United Nations have to say on that one and the other source with the body counts/estimations i gave you.

they were isolated cases of massive crimes.Do you understand now?


You are free to comment on what suits you best :lol: . The thing is that you fought side by side with the Croats and actively participated to their slaughtering. After all you were collaborating ever since WWII ;)

You know actually it's pathetic seeing you bringing Croatia because you haven't anything to say.
And may I add something new you'd never believe...

There was NO Bosnian unit operating in Croatia during the war.
Oh well actually there was the 5th Korp at operation Oluja..now please find me some articles about crimes committed by the Bosnian troops in Croatia.Than we can return on the croatia issue ;)

I guess when Partisans killed Ustases it was collaboration.

Here is a hint:

Major population shifts caused by the conflicts have drastically altered the previous ethnic make-up of all of the republics. In an effort to "ethnically cleanse" territories, particularly in Bosnia and later in Kosovo, entire populations were forcibly ejected from their homes. In Croatia, the government drove out over 200,000 ethnic Serbs from the province of Krajina in an effort to create an ethnically pure Croatia. In Bosnia, Bosnian Croats, Bosnian Muslims, and Bosnian Serbs pushed each other out as they claimed new territories. In Kosovo, hundreds of thousands of Albanians were driven out of the province by the Serbian government, prompting the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999. Mass killings among all sides became a common way to permanently remove entire populations. IMI's Balkan Archive contains numerous statements from survivors and refugees describing the use of torture, rape, murder, and forced relocation.

Actually I didn't exress myself better.Find me some proofs of mass killings ordered by central government.


If you dont understand then i am afraid this is not my problem. Perhaps because the story backs up my claims?

Actually yea I am happy Naser is the only thing you can find to bitch to us ;).But I guess the fact Naser wasn't under our central command bothers you too much... :petting:



:petting: You are not the only one watching this argument i am afraid. Its good for people to know...organized or not, dictated by the central government or not the body counts definitely put more blame to the Serbs, yet the Bosnian/Albanian/Croatian bubble of 'Serbs being the true devils on this one' is burst within seconds.


Actually I am happy of people watching this argument so they can see the equality you are bitching about is BS...I didn't know you tought Nazis and Allies are on the same level of war crimes...you say body count does not prove anything...maybe Greek logic :roll: who knows?


please this please that. You ask for too much, but give very little apart from a threat on posting some video or something...write your own posts and let me write mine. In analogy, no Israeli site can be credible when it comes to the Holocaust, and in equal terms, no Bosnian site can be objective regarding the war in Bosnia. Your logic is severely flawed. Indeed, there are crap sites all over the place, from both sides, but there are seeds of truth and objectivity in others.


I am sorry man but I already showed you why you cannot rely on BS serbian sites...

But is this bothering you that much..I know..without BS you cannot proove a lot... :petting:


Again, choosing not to comment certain things is clearly up to you, and enhances my point that there are very obscure aspects of the so-called 'Bosnian innocence'.


Wow man.Actually I tought you'd undderstand why I should not reply to these points,But I see I must clear it to you :D


Why a comparison to the Holocaust is not appropriate?
-The extent of the war crimes is not comparable.

Oh yea.Nazis usually didn't rape Jews,here a new crime was introduced :roll:

-Bosnian Muslim women and children from Srebrenica were sent in buses by Serb officials to safety at Tuzla.

Pure BS a lot of children and women were found in mass graves.

-Bosnian Muslims were a warring faction, constantly raiding Bosnian Serb villages around Srebrenica.

Yes,paramilitary Bosnian muslim formations were doing it.

-The largest single incident of ethnic cleansing in the 1991-1995 war in former Yugoslavia was the exodus of 250,000 Krajina Serbs by the Croatian forces.

They are alive while 8000 people is dead.You really believe an alive person can be compared to a dead one?If yes,I understand all our debate.

-WWII Nazi in the former Yugoslavia were the Croats and many Muslims. Serbs were the victims of the WWII, together with the Jews and the Roma.

Again pure BS,add the Serb SS division to the chtniks and you find your "victims".


I mean what i have been trying to pass through ever since my first post on this thread. That attrocities were committed by both sides-and i frankly give no **** on who gave the orders, yet that seems very important to you- and that since NATO decided to intervene it should have bombed the living hell out of everyone, no exceptions made. But why NATO did what it did is a whole new conversation so i will leave it to that.


Well lif you want to discuss about it,I am here.


This is an irrelevant, moronic and out of the blue question that i do not really understand.


What?You said body counts are irrilevant.
Now do we agree Allies commited war crimes?I guess you do,since you don't seem that dumb.So do you compare Allies to Nazis about the crime question?


I dont know how much those percentages are valid to be honest, even coming from 'western' sources that i used, given that NATO had and still has every incentive to skew the numbers in favour of you, the Croats and the Albanians. That justifies even more their unfair and vicious campaign. Leaving the percentages aside, the only ones that paid the price of the NATO bombings were the Serbian civilians...

Are we talking about the Bosnian war aren't we?You want to add the Kosovo question now too?Do you know what nato destroyed in Bosnia?Pieces of serbian artillery who were violating "UN safe zones" and 4 Serb aircraft who were going in a "non fly-zone".No serb civillian casualties.



I am not trying to change anyone's opinion.I am just expressing mine.
Oh and read the book i told you about and tell me what you think ;)

yeah sure I am running.When I will have time,I will.


All in all, it is still somewhat early to raw 100% safe inference on the body counts, since the deaths caused by the Serbians have been more or less revealed by the NATO/US propagand whereas your 'unfortunate acts that take place in all wars' have been very carefully hidden. I am wondering what else is in those UN top-secret archives and the archives of other intelligenve agencies...primarily the British and the Americans ones.
I might be wrong of course, but i have a hunch that your record will get darker as soon as more intelligenve is revealed. I am stabding by....you seem to have settled in for good....

Well man "suppositions" are the only thing some serbs are relying on.13 years have passed and all they could find are in fact the articles you are showing to me....When they will discover more,than we'll talk again.Untill than,don't rely on suppositions too much ;)



Just something:did you know that the 90% of corpses found in mass graves are bosnian muslims?


:lol: Is it a coincidence that we all reach the same conclusions? :lol:

lol I was thinking the same about you,isn't it strange :lol:?


Btw I will be on holiday for a week,I'll return Sunday so unfortunately I won't be able to reply untill than.I hope this won't get in a flame war untill than.

See ya all untill than.
Selam Alejkum to everyone.

[Lokos]

Again pure BS,add the Serb SS division to the chtniks and you find your "victims".

Never existed. There was the Volunteer Guard, but it never exceeded brigade-size, and was never used in anything but operations against the partizans.

Lokos

[RBIH_Troop]

I used to participate in threads like this. No more.


I'm staying on the sidelines as well.

Me Too!

[Clearday-TRForce]

I used to participate in threads like this. No more.


I'm staying on the sidelines as well.

Me Too!

Me Not!

[Inquisitor]

30 minutes and than holiday!! woot


well now let's return on the debate


Never existed. There was the Volunteer Guard, but it never exceeded brigade-size, and was never used in anything but operations against the partizans.


Well partisans or not it was an SS division...I mean,at first it was just acompany of volunteers but than it became an SS division because of it's commander.I found some info on the forum,can u confirm this info?

Serbisches Freiwilligen Korps der SS was formed Nov 1944 when the command of Srpska Dobrovoljacki Korpus (Serbian Volunteer Corps) was transferred to the Waffen-SS.
Srpska Dobrovoljacki Korpus, SDK, (Serbian Volunteer Corps) was formed Sep 1941 as the Srpska Dobrovoljacki Komanda (Serbian Volunteer Command). Most of its members came from the fascist Zbor party. It was renamed SDK Jan 1943.
It retreated from Serbia to Slovenia Oct 1944.


Commanders:

General Kosta Musicki 16.Sep.1941-27.Mar.1945
General Damjanovic 27.Mar.1945-04.May.1945

Order of Battle (Jan 1943)
1. Battalion
3 x Companies
2. Battalion
3 x Companies
3. Battalion
3 x Companies
4. Battalion
3 x Companies
5. Battalion
3 x Companies

Order of Battle (1944)
1. Regiment
3 x Battalions
2. Regiment
3 x Battalions
3. Regiment
3 x Battalions
4. Regiment
3 x Battalions
5. Regiment
3 x Battalions

Manpower strenght:

Feb.1942: 3513
Okt.1943:10500
Okt.1944:6500
May.1945:3000

[achilles]

wow man I am impressed.:D

wow kido...well i am not, at least not by your kindergarden replies :lol: Lets see what we have here...


I didn't know English tought in Greek schools was so bad :lol:

Bosnian humour huh? Is it always like that or only when someone gets under your skin? :lol:


I never said I changed my opinion about holocaust,I said that for some points it was the same.Actually,the number of deads is probably not the only point they share;)

One very simple but important detail that skips your limited perception is that in the holocaust there were nazis vs unarmed jews, whereas that was not the case in your conflict where both sides were armed. In any case you both killed each others' civilians but at a different scale. But that doesnt make Bosnians mini-Nazis now does it? Look again at the points i posted and you might get it this time.


but I guess you are really pissed of seeing you cannot rely on your beautiful Serbian BS sites :lol:

I am trembling man....going through a nervous breakdown :lol: Actually i think you are funny cause what i picture on my mind while reading your posts is a 20 year old semmi-teenager slapping his keyboard as soon as he reads my posts... :lol:



Well man I got some news that could shock you:The Hanjar divison was not formed excusevely by Bosnian muslims!:D
there were croats and albanians as well.

Oh Allah, i dont think i will stand this shock :lol: You were supposed to be telling me news my friend...the fact that you the Croats and the Albanians are a big happy family when this is necessary is not news....and how does this refutes your collaboration with the Nazis? Well, it does not...


Nontheless you are trying to portrait Bonians as a group that widely accepted nazism.It is quite the opposite.Of course in the Bosnia parts under the Croatian government a lot were brainwashed (a lot forced,some even kidnapped) but overall the Bosnian muslims widely joined partizans.

Nah, that doesnt seem to be the case. And since your reading comprehension is not the brightest, let me repeat that what i am saying is NOT that every single Bosnian was a goose stepper but that your country (Izetbegovic included) significantly supported Hitler, side by side with the puppet state of Croatia. Why are you so constipated again in admitting things? At least 20,000 compadres of yours fought for Hitler...digest it, man...its been 60 years already.



now partizans in Bosnia were more than 100000.You tell me ;)
Some Green Left from Australia is the impeccable site you are referring to? :lol: Give me a break please....


please man.This is the biggest BS I have ever hears.Never heard of Nedic?The commander of Nazi Serbia?Do you know what is the primate Belgrade helds?;)

In symmetry, the Christian Holocaust is for the Turks the biggest bull**** they have ever heard. See the analogy? Nothing is bull**** because you say so and because you manage to articulate a couple of questions...


Belgrade was the first city in occupied europe to be 100% cleansed of jews.Never heard of chetniks?The ones who first mde some guerrilla actions against nazis and than when f*** by partisans fully cooperated with them?Never heard of the massacre in Foca?Well,these massacres were made by yours non-nazi serbs ;)

Oh god i have this deja vu....'Hey hey look at them, they are worse than us, dont blame us oueeeeeee', you are not crying now are you? :lol: Again, pinpointing at someone else does not wash out the blood that YOU have spilt...




Yea,their role was etnic cleansing of serbs,pure BS.


Well, if you say so it should be BS :lol: Welcome to the kindergarden and i was hoping for a more mature and integrated conversation...i was wrong, although not too much surprised...


Lol.Russies are so reliable when serbs are involved...strange these documents were never found before 1992...when the war occured... :roll:

Strange how you can roughly make any point apart from criticising my sources :lol:


I see you continue to relay on biased sites.Nontheless,I will respond to you,the Islamic declaration in fatc NEVER TALKS ABOUT BOSNIA it says to accomplish an islamic state it must be a fully muslim state therefore Bosnia is immediately excluded.;)

I have left all the good and unbiased sites for you...its just that i dont see them :lol:



Noone is erasing it,but a lot are exagerating it.There was an SS division of not even 20000 bosnian muslims 20000 were the actual soldiers,you must think of croats and albanians aswell ;).
Partisans were the side with the bigger percentage of Bosnian muslim forces.So cry me a river,but you cannot change history this way...

Apparently you cannot interpret it the way you like. Bosnia significantly supported the Nazi..



hehe actually I am glad that everybody is bitching about a paramilitary group not under our direct command.That is exactly what I said.A bunch of thugs who committed war crimes.

Tell me you are not stupid are you :lol: ? I think not...but why are you using this kind of logic? If a big paramilitary group from Greece starts killing Albanians in cold blood, will i not feel responsible? Will i have to say that 'hey, its not our official army' so they are not even considered Greeks? Spare us this avalanche of horse****e and say for once 'i admit'...it seems that the Ottoman empire have left you with a solid denying mentality up there.... :lol:





I do, and i see a lot of cherry picking, unfortunate parallelisms and futile questions. Are you sure you are reading mine carefully?

yeas but it's boring... man I ask you non biased sites,and you give me biased,I tell you give me some proofs etnic cleansing was organized by our side and you don't give me..you know,it's getting bored...

Same bull**** over and over again...wonder whats boring?



they were isolated cases of massive crimes.Do you understand now?

They were not massive crimes..they were isolated cases of massive crimes... rofl . The stypididy of this statment should be put in a sticky thread for everyone to relish, but because i like you i will assume that you were trying to tell me something else...



You know actually it's pathetic seeing you bringing Croatia because you haven't anything to say.
Of course this not why i am referring to your comrades the Croatians. This is how you want to paint because apparently i am making you piss your teenage pants :lol:
Ok seriously though, and i have said that already, is that the reason for referring to the Croats and you is the degree to which you cooperated, and are responsible for crimes against the Serbs. That seems fairly simple...its the Balcans we are talking about and neccessarily we have to include a good number of people in our 'debate'.



And may I add something new you'd never believe...

There was NO Bosnian unit operating in Croatia during the war.
Oh well actually there was the 5th Korp at operation Oluja..now please find me some articles about crimes committed by the Bosnian troops in Croatia.Than we can return on the croatia issue ;)

Please find you? CAn you go check the door to see if i am coming? You make a claim...where are YOUR sources that there as no Bosnian unit operating in Croatia...Listen dude, i had a hunch that you would be a waste of time...lest see whats next...




Actually I didn't exress myself better.Find me some proofs of mass killings ordered by central government.

*yawn*you are missing the point my friend...and telling me to find this and find that just reveals more your kindergarden mentality. You havent backed up anything so far so try finding some sources for yourself...



Actually yea I am happy Naser is the only thing you can find to bitch to us ;).But I guess the fact Naser wasn't under our central command bothers you too much... :petting:

Naser was one of my points in supporting my claim about the duality of the conflict. Take a drill and penetrate that into your mind cause thats what i am saying....




Actually I am happy of people watching this argument so they can see the equality you are bitching about is BS...I didn't know you tought Nazis and Allies are on the same level of war crimes...you say body count does not prove anything...maybe Greek logic :roll: who knows?

I guess any logic is superior to your way of thinking that purifies your crimes. You are trying to make the devils out of Sebrs ONLY and this is the bubble i have burst. You should wait for more evidence against your Allah-u-akbars freedom fighters soon in the news...



I am sorry man but I already showed you why you cannot rely on BS serbian sites...

You are sorry? You should be :lol:


Well lif you want to discuss about it,I am here.

You will not feel offended if i pass will you? :lol:



This is an irrelevant, moronic and out of the blue question that i do not really understand.


What?You said body counts are irrilevant.
Now do we agree Allies commited war crimes?I guess you do,since you don't seem that dumb.So do you compare Allies to Nazis about the crime question?

Given that i have already said that the scale of guilt APPEARS to be inclined towards the Serbs i do not see why your meaningless question needs an answer....


Are we talking about the Bosnian war aren't we?You want to add the Kosovo question now too?Do you know what nato destroyed in Bosnia?Pieces of serbian artillery who were violating "UN safe zones" and 4 Serb aircraft who were going in a "non fly-zone".No serb civillian casualties.

You have the mental capacity to understand that NATO's campaign and the war in Bosnia are interrelated, do you? And i suppose you can also understand what the Serbs have been through because of the campaigns...


yeah sure I am running.When I will have time,I will.

Nah dont run, take your time...



Well man "suppositions" are the only thing some serbs are relying on.13 years have passed and all they could find are in fact the articles you are showing to me....When they will discover more,than we'll talk again.Untill than,don't rely on suppositions too much...

That was my personal pressuposition...take it for what it is since i didnt base any conclusions on it...



lol I was thinking the same about you,isn't it strange :lol:?

Me denying? When? I dont have any Ottoman influences ;)



Btw I will be on holiday for a week,I'll return Sunday so unfortunately I won't be able to reply untill than.I hope this won't get in a flame war untill than.
See ya all untill than.
Selam Alejkum to everyone.[/quote]

Dont let the door hit you on your way out :lol: .
Take care and have fun...

[Kontra1]

Forgive me for interrupting the crescento of the retarded monkey but Inquisitor is waiting for an answer, which is more of a clarification of my stance on the was in Bosnia.
Inquisitor, first let me help the situation by saying that the fact the Croats and Bosnians sided with the Nazis in WWII is beyond any refutation, and I believe noone can argue that. Given that, the Bosnian/Croat axis is responsible for a numerous deaths of allies as well as Serbs during their struggle against the axis of evil. If you really want to stick to the numbers I wont follow you in that game. You sided with the Nazis, and fought for them. Period. If you ask me, your alliance with the Nazis-that contributed to the creation of hatred among you- combined with religious differences and the collapse of Yugoslavia is what sparked the conflict.

Bosnia Holocaust Had Roots In Serb Nazi Movement

by Eric Margolis

The days of Serb strongman Slobodan Milosevic, who began the Third Balkan War and fathered ethnic cleansing, may be numbered.

http://www.twf.org/News/Y1997/SerbNazi.html

...and Greek Nazis

http://img14.imgspot.com/u/05/172/04/Nazigreeks2.jpg

http://img14.imgspot.com/u/05/172/04/Nazigreeks3.jpg

http://img14.imgspot.com/u/05/172/04/Nazigreeks5.jpg

http://img14.imgspot.com/u/05/172/04/Nazigreeks6.jpg

[Kontra1]

army to army, not army to people...dont mix please.

I think you are living in denial ...

....and you're ****ing coward. Easy to troll around like this hiding your colors.Tell me what flag you wave if your brave enough to comfront YOUR history.

Kontra1

[zealot]

^ your source "The mission of The Wisdom Fund (site) is to advance social justice and interfaith understanding by presenting The Truth About Islam. "

[zealot]

army to army, not army to people...dont mix please.

I think you are living in denial ...

....and you're f*** coward. Easy to troll around like this hiding your colors.Tell me what flag you wave if your brave enough to comfront YOUR history.

Kontra1

What :cantbeli:

[Kontra1]

army to army, not army to people...dont mix please.

I think you are living in denial ...

....and you're f*** coward. Easy to troll around like this hiding your colors.Tell me what flag you wave if your brave enough to comfront YOUR history.

Kontra1

What :cantbeli:

Yeah..you read it correct.

What nationality are you?

Kontra1

[achilles]

...and Greek Nazis

i was wondering what took you so long :lol:

Greek Nazis? You have no shame do you? You mean a bunch of Greek traitors that decided to collaborate with the Nazi regime? How many were those guys do you know? Far less than 20,000 and definitely far less organized...another good thing is that we didnt sell any chromium to Hitler. Instead we kicked the Italians back to where they came from and resisted the Germans as much as we could. It is the Greek resistance that delayed them enough for the Russian winter to chop them to pieces a few months later.

BTW, do you know any nation that had not ONE snitch when it came under any sort of occupation? I dont...so i dont really see the point in what you posted.

When linking Greece with WWII you should be thankful and more respectful for our struggle against the axis. Instead you choose to post some nonsensical bull****. This is sad...

[zealot]

army to army, not army to people...dont mix please.

I think you are living in denial ...

....and you're f*** coward. Easy to troll around like this hiding your colors.Tell me what flag you wave if your brave enough to comfront YOUR history.

Kontra1

What :cantbeli:

Yeah..you read it correct.

What nationality are you?

Kontra1

Chil out man

This is all i am going to tell, i am from a EU member country (not a recent "new" member .... and before you ask, no its not Greece ....

Happy now ...

[Kontra1]

...and Greek Nazis

i was wondering what took you so long :lol:

Greek Nazis? You have no shame do you? You mean a bunch of Greek traitors that decided to collaborate with the Nazi regime? How many were those guys do you know? Far less than 20,000 and definitely far less organized...another good thing is that we didnt sell any chromium to Hitler. Instead we kicked the Italians back to where they came from and resisted the Germans as much as we could. It is the Greek resistance that delayed them enough for the Russian winter to chop them to pieces a few months later.

BTW, do you know any nation that had not ONE snitch when it came under any sort of occupation? I dont...so i dont really see the point in what you posted.

When linking Greece with WWII you should be thankful and more respectful for our struggle against the axis. Instead you choose to post some nonsensical bull****. This is sad...

Haha...you're good man... :lol: By impyling nazis forcefully occupied nations,so was greece too.Well...on the contrary, there were some nations which were happy to see them and collobrated easly and quickly...greece was one of them.Of course there was resistance by the greek communists, but this was very little an ineffective.


another good thing is that we didnt sell any chromium to Hitler.

Hell...if you can blame a whole nation for the actions of one greedy businessman...a bunch of "traitors" as you call can represent a nation better.

Kontra1

[Kontra1]

army to army, not army to people...dont mix please.

I think you are living in denial ...

....and you're f*** coward. Easy to troll around like this hiding your colors.Tell me what flag you wave if your brave enough to comfront YOUR history.

Kontra1

What :cantbeli:

Yeah..you read it correct.

What nationality are you?

Kontra1

Chil out man

This is all i am going to tell, i am from a EU member country (not a recent "new" member .... and before you ask, no its not Greece ....

Happy now ...

That's probably why(looking at your avatar) YOU were remimded of the "Algerian genocide"

Whos' living in denial now?

Kontra1

[fantassin]

Haha...you're good man... By impyling nazis forcefully occupied nations,so was greece too.Well...on the contrary, there were some nations which were happy to see them and collobrated easly and quickly...greece was one of them.Of course there was resistance by the greek communists, but this was very little an ineffective.

The Greeks were among the fiercest resistance fighters in Europe; ask the German paratroopers what they think....they pulped the Italians until Hitler sent reinforcement troops and they always fought valiantly.

Not to mention the Greek "Sacred Squadron" of the SAS who also did a lot of good SF work....

[achilles]

Haha...you're good man... :lol:

Yeah, i know ;)


By impyling nazis forcefully occupied nations,so was greece too.Well...on the contrary, there were some nations which were happy to see them and collobrated easly and quickly...greece was one of them.Of course there was resistance by the greek communists, but this was very little an ineffective.

Oh my freakin' god what is this thing man? :lol: This bit of your post is so monstrous and blinded that i can do nothing more and nothing less than laugh :lol: . Greece was one of them? I guess we collaborated in kicking their asses as much as we could...i bet that not you even you are able to believe the piece of utter bull**** that you just posted...



Hell...if you can blame a whole nation for the actions of one greedy businessman...a bunch of "traitors" as you call can represent a nation better.

You are missing on important detail here...Greece FAUGHT the axis whereas Bosnia and Turkey either remained pseudo-neutral or sided with them, either with selling essential materials to them or by providing 20,000 proud Bosnian troops. :lol:

You are getting way out of line here i am afraid...you just make yourself look like a fool...everybody knows Greece's role and contribution in fighting the axis. Would you consider retracting some of your sad comments? :lol: Nah, nevermind...

[achilles]

The Greeks were among the fiercest resistance fighters in Europe; ask the German paratroopers what they think....they pulped the Italians until Hitler sent reinforcement troops and they always fought valiantly.

Not to mention the Greek "Sacred Squadron" of the SAS who also did a lot of good SF work....

Dont bother pointing out the obvious fant...we all know who fought and who was a real snitch hiding behind its 'domestic problems'. Just let the flowing vomit and ignorance proove the points we are making.

[Kontra1]

Haha...you're good man... By impyling nazis forcefully occupied nations,so was greece too.Well...on the contrary, there were some nations which were happy to see them and collobrated easly and quickly...greece was one of them.Of course there was resistance by the greek communists, but this was very little an ineffective.

The Greeks were among the fiercest resistance fighters in Europe; ask the German paratroopers what they think....they pulped the Italians until Hitler sent reinforcement troops and they always fought valiantly.

Not to mention the Greek "Sacred Squadron" of the SAS who also did a lot of good SF work....

You'd probably testify for anything on the behelf of ANYBODY as long as they're against Turks....correct.

Can't tell from your avatar...but we must have stept on your tail too in way back in the history I guess ;)

Komntra1

[achilles]

You'd probably testify for anything on the behelf of ANYBODY as long as they're against Turks....correct.

Can't tell from your avatar...but we must have stept on your tail too in way back in the history I guess ;)

Komntra1

I challenge you to point out which part of his posts are false. Waiting...

[fantassin]

Too bad I don't have a scanner to post the pictures of a delegation of Turkish officers invited to Nazi Germany to attend to the trials of the Tiger I tank...they seemed very interested !

[Kontra1]

Too bad I don't have a scanner to post the pictures of a delegation of Turkish officers invited to Nazi Germany to attend to the trials of the Tiger I tank...they seemed very interested !

Still not telling me where you're from...scared of seeing YOUR countrymen together with the nazis? ;)

Kontra1

[achilles]

Too bad I don't have a scanner to post the pictures of a delegation of Turkish officers invited to Nazi Germany to attend to the trials of the Tiger I tank...they seemed very interested !

Still not telling me where you're from...scared of seeing YOUR countrymen together with the nazis? ;)

Kontra1

I am sorry to inform you that your argumentation is severly crippled. Nationalities do not corroborate nor refute arguments. Your inability to make a point is forcing you to circumvent, well...the point.

You have yet to answer which points made by fantassin regarding the Greeks are wrong (you said that he would post ANYTHING against Turkey, yet all i saw was a couple of facts about Greece) and you have yet to quit asking stupid question about nationalities as if this is the point here ;)

[Kontra1]

Too bad I don't have a scanner to post the pictures of a delegation of Turkish officers invited to Nazi Germany to attend to the trials of the Tiger I tank...they seemed very interested !

Still not telling me where you're from...scared of seeing YOUR countrymen together with the nazis? ;)

Kontra1

I am sorry to inform you that your argumentation is severly crippled. Nationalities do not corroborate nor refute arguments. Your inability to make a point is forcing to circumvent, well...the point.

You have yet to answer which points made by fantassin regarding the Greeks are wrong (you said that he would post ANYTHING against Turkey, yet all i saw was a couple of facts about Greece) and you have yet to quit asking stupid question about nationalities as if this is the point here ;)

haha..man..are you a joker or something? Can you prove me that he's not a greek or a serb...or one of your religiousl/traditional allies who would blantly defend you and your nation...like you also do/been doing for them in return?? Are you a JOKER?? :lol:

YOU are challenging ME to disprove anything He says on your behalf?? Who the **** is HE to be taken serious for what ever he says on YOUR behalf?? HUH??

Kontra1

[achilles]

haha..man..are you a joker or something? Can you prove me that he's not a greek or a serb...or one of your religiousl/traditional allies who would blantly defend you and your nation...like you also do/been doing for them in return?? Are you a JOKER?? :lol:

Wow, an avalanche of bad attitude :lol: I am just asking you to back up your bull**** mate thats all...you said something but you are so crippled that you cannot even support if for fun...i can tell you with great certainty that he is neither Greek nor Serb. Its up to him to reveal his nationality as if this has anything to do with him making valid points, as opposed to your contant bull****ting, which you are so persistent in NOT backing up...


YOU are challenging ME to disprove anything He says on your behalf?? Who the f*** is HE to be taken serious for what ever he says on YOUR behalf?? HUH??

Oh oh hold the horse cowboy :lol: Eaaaasy now...deep breaths....what i said is that he would say ANYTHIG that is against Turkey. In fact he advocated that Greece and Hitler are two incompatible things. Thats a fact. Consolidated. So tell me where your bull****ting fits to all this...

[Clearday-TRForce]

The Greeks were among the fiercest resistance fighters in Europe;


Greeks and power??? rofl yeah but We must admit that they have good resistance,ouch sorry defence tactics in football...

Hey forget Brasil match...

[achilles]

:cantbeli: rofl Preach on Einstein...

[Jani.R]

How thread about "Serb beheading picture published (BBC)" picture has gotten into "How Greek fighted during WW" thread?

[Clearday-TRForce]

How thread about "Serb beheading picture published (BBC)" picture has gotten into "How Greek fighted during WW" thread?

yeah coz some bs Greek mates r going round for their bs propoganda,agendas...we call them "Maşa", the small player of big brothers... :lol:

[Jani.R]

How thread about "Serb beheading picture published (BBC)" picture has gotten into "How Greek fighted during WW" thread?

yeah coz some bs Greek mates r going round for their bs propoganda,agendas...we call them "Maşa", the small player of big brothers... :lol:

Then it looks like our schoolbooks are full of propaganda, how dare they claim that Greek fighted hard, when in fact they welcomed the nazis as "liberators" and gave cookies to them.

Thank you brother for telling me the truth.

[Ichhabe]

Aaaaah! Good to see something back to normal. You guys had 3 days rest just to get your flaming strenght back, eh?

[Kontra1]

Too bad I don't have a scanner to post the pictures of a delegation of Turkish officers invited to Nazi Germany to attend to the trials of the Tiger I tank...they seemed very interested !

Still not telling me where you're from...scared of seeing YOUR countrymen together with the nazis? ;)

Kontra1

I am sorry to inform you that your argumentation is severly crippled. Nationalities do not corroborate nor refute arguments. Your inability to make a point is forcing you to circumvent, well...the point.

You have yet to answer which points made by fantassin regarding the Greeks are wrong (you said that he would post ANYTHING against Turkey, yet all i saw was a couple of facts about Greece) and you have yet to quit asking stupid question about nationalities as if this is the point here ;)

Right....You put up a picture of bunch of soldiers(claiming to be they are Bosnians) being inspected by a nazi officer and you try to conclude that the Bosnians were full nazi collabrators. I put up a picture of your gov't officials, priests, soldiers training,giving nazi salutes...you say.."yeah..but.. they were forced and pupped governments".Well... I got news for you my friend...then why the hell it was being fought against nasiz under the occupation still a crime untill the 70's, while the nazi collabrators received pensions in your country?....I'll bet no one heard about this before :roll:(cuz...only a Turk would know such details) ;)

You guys are very clever in distorting the history.Just lke you claim to be the masters of todays civilization when you guys commited some of the worst attrocities in the history in the name of bringing your civilization to the "barbarian" lands...just like Alexander the Great being a greek when now it's accepted pretty much that he's Macedonian after Macedonians got a voice recently to tell the world the truth...and just like in this "Greek resistance story". It's time for people to look at things coming from you guys a bit more sceptical and don't jump into conclutions too quick.

Kontra1

[theg]

Achilles, what do you back here? Milosevic? or what?

or

you would like to make "minimizing of pain,plans,genocide,acrocities,massacres" below;


http://www.friendsofbosnia.org/zones/images/photos/16B.jpg

Genocide is often assumed to mean the mass destruction of a people. That certainly was happening throughout Bosnia during most of the war, but according to the Genocide Convention, the term also refers to the intentional destruction of culture...

We will NEVER forget.

I am pretty sure that Serbs will never forget 100's of years of butchering by Turks ... ;)
man ı dont know who are u and what defend u. ı think u never read history book. turks never cut somebody. ok we never forget bosnian genocide and we will never forget this. ı dont know ur national. but u should accept this serb butcher

[achilles]

Right....You put up a picture of bunch of soldiers(claiming to be they are Bosnians) being inspected by a nazi officer and you try to conclude that the Bosnians were full nazi collabrators. I put up a picture of your gov't officials, priests, soldiers training,giving nazi salutes...you say.."yeah..but.. they were forced and pupped governments".

You just dont get it do you? Where do you see the similarity between 20,000 fully armed and organized Bosnian division fighting side by side with the SS, and a bunch of Greek snitches? How many could those snitches be? Got any sources on that one? :lol: 100? 200? 500? Have your pick and admit that you comparison is not only irrelevant but somewhat moronic. Again you are humiliating yourself and show how 'small' you are by sticking to a bunch of traitors instead of being a bit more thankfull for stopping delaying the Italian/German offensive. Read more about the battle of Crete dude, and open a couple of good books on why the Germans went VERY late to Russia...


Well... I got news for you my friend...then why the hell it was being fought against nasiz under the occupation still a crime untill the 70's, while the nazi collabrators received pensions in your country?....I'll bet no one heard about this before :roll:(cuz...only a Turk would know such details) ;)

I am not sure i understood what you say here but i suspect that this should be really funny...who received pensions in my country? :lol: And says who? :lol:


You guys are very clever in distorting the history.Just lke you claim to be the masters of todays civilization when you guys commited some of the worst attrocities in the history in the name of bringing your civilization to the "barbarian" lands...just like Alexander the Great being a greek when now it's accepted pretty much that he's Macedonian after Macedonians got a voice recently to tell the world the truth...and just like in this "Greek resistance story". It's time for people to look at things coming from you guys a bit more sceptical and don't jump into conclutions too quick.

Like it or not, we set the basis for Western Civilization my mate, yes the one that you are pissing your pants to reach one day. I am not being cocky here, its that civilizations have to start from somewhere and it just happened that this one started from here. Humanity woke up once more after the middle-ages when it discovered the Ancient Greeks and Romans once more. But you should not know too much about that cause evidently you are coming from a different world.

As for your funny comments on 'our worst attrocities in the history of mankind' and 'Macedonia' i will rescue my brain cells and dignity and not comment ;)

[Clearday-TRForce]

Right....You put up a picture of bunch of soldiers(claiming to be they are Bosnians) being inspected by a nazi officer and you try to conclude that the Bosnians were full nazi collabrators. I put up a picture of your gov't officials, priests, soldiers training,giving nazi salutes...you say.."yeah..but.. they were forced and pupped governments".Well... I got news for you my friend...then why the hell it was being fought against nasiz under the occupation still a crime untill the 70's, while the nazi collabrators received pensions in your country?....I'll bet no one heard about this before :roll:(cuz...only a Turk would know such details) ;)

You guys are very clever in distorting the history.Just lke you claim to be the masters of todays civilization when you guys commited some of the worst attrocities in the history in the name of bringing your civilization to the "barbarian" lands...just like Alexander the Great being a greek when now it's accepted pretty much that he's Macedonian after Macedonians got a voice recently to tell the world the truth...and just like in this "Greek resistance story". It's time for people to look at things coming from you guys a bit more sceptical and don't jump into conclutions too quick.

Kontra1




The Vatican's reluctance to help the persecuted Jews of Europe is well documented. This was not the case, however, with the Papal Nuncio in Istanbul from 1935 until 1944, Archbishop Angelo Roncalli, who later became Pope John XXIII. Roncalli was a very unusual person. When he first came to Turkey even before the war, he taught his parishioners, including many Greeks and Armenians, that they should forget their prejudices against Turks and Muslims, that they should follow the precepts of Christian charity and love in dealing with them, that they should forget the bigotries of the past and work together with their fellow Turkish citizens to build a new and modern Republic. Roncalli learned Turkish himself and recited the Christmas mass in Turkish at least one in Istanbul. This greatly pleased the Turkish people, who had become increasingly disgusted with the insistence of Christians in Turkey to continue using Greek, Italian, French or Armenian in preference to Turkish, unlike the Jews who had emphasized the ue of Turkish instead of French and Ladino since the mid 1930's. During the war Roncalli went much further. He got the Sisters of Sion order of nuns to use their own communications network in Eastern Europe to help the Jewish Agency pass communications, clothing and food to Jews in Hungary in particular. Other Vatican couriers going from Istanbul to Eastern Europe did the same thing as the result of Roncalli's orders. He even got them to carry false Certificates of Conversion to Hungarian Jews to help save them from the Nazis. A remarkable person indeed, early in the year 2000 was recognized as a Saint by the Catholic Church.

Turkey also acted to help the Jews of Greece during the Holocaust. Just as was the case in the areas of southern France occupied by Italy, so also in Greece, during the time it was under Italian occupation early in the war, Greek Jews did reasonably well, despite pressure from Greeks themselves, whose long tradition of anti-Semitism led them to hope that the foreign occupation would at least enable them to get rid of their Jewish fellow-citizens. Even after German troops entered Greece to help the Italians against Greek guerilla resistance. The Italian troops protected Greek Jews from persecution at the hands of the Germans and the Greeks. Once Italy fell out of the war in 1943 and the Germans took over, however, the situation of Jews in Greece became worse than anywhere else in Europe, since while many Frenchmen and Dutchmen, and egven Germans had helped the Jews to escape the Nazi persecution, most Greeks did none of this due to their long history of pervasive anti-Semitism. The only Greeks who helped Jewswere the partisans fighting against the Nazis, who did help Jewish groups spiriting Jews out of Greece, either across the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean to Turkey or Palestine, or by land across the Maritza river into Turkey. Most Greek jews were in fact exterminated by the Nazis. Jewish synagogues and schools were systematically destroyed. Even the great Jewish cemetery at Salonica was wiped out. After the war, instead of restoring it, Greece built the new Aristotle University of Salonica on the cemetery lands.. The Turkish consuls in Greece, at Athens, Salonica and Gümülcine as well as on the islands of Midilli and Rhodes provided the same sort of assistance that the Turkish consuls did in France, also organizing boats to carry Jews to safety in Turkey and intervening with the Germans to exempt Turkish Jews from persecution and extermination. The most outstanding example of this came with the activities of Consul Selahattin Ülkümen in Rhodes, who got the Nazis to spare the Turkish Jews on the island, and who as a result was subsequently imprisoned by the Nazis after his consulate was bombed and his pregnant wife killed by the Germans. The Turkish guards on the Greek-Turkish border allowed Jews coming from Greece as well as Bulgaria to enter turkey even though most of them had no papers at all. Camps were set up for them near Edirne, and ultimately they were allowed to pass on to Istanbul, and, for most of them, to join the other refugees doing by small boats from the Mediterranean coast of southern Turkey to Palestine. Turkey thus provided major assistance to Jews being persecuted by the Nazis, despite pressure from the British, who wanted to stop Jewish immigration to Palestine, and by the Nazis, who demanded not only that this rescue work be stopped, but also that all Turkish Jews, as well as the refugees, be sent to Germany for extermination. Turkey steadfastly refused these demands and continued to assist European Jewry to escape from the Holocaust and in most cases go to Palestine. . Only after it was assured of an Allied victory, and the impossibility of a German invasion, by late 1943, was it ready to enter the war. Even then, however, it reacted to appeals for delay from the Jewish Agency, which understood that immediate Turkish entry would cut off the escape routes through Turkey which were enabling thousand of Jews to escape the Nazis throughout Europe, postponing its entry for almost a year. While six million Jews were being exterminated by the Nazis, the rescue of some 15,000 Turkish Jews from France, and even of some 100,000 Jews from Eastern Europe might well be considered as relatively insignificant in comparison. It was, however, very significant to the people who were rescued, and above all it showed that, as had been the case for more than five centuries, Turks and Jews continued to help each other in times of great crises.

Stanford J. Shaw Professor



CLDTRF

[Kontra1]

Right....You put up a picture of bunch of soldiers(claiming to be they are Bosnians) being inspected by a nazi officer and you try to conclude that the Bosnians were full nazi collabrators. I put up a picture of your gov't officials, priests, soldiers training,giving nazi salutes...you say.."yeah..but.. they were forced and pupped governments".

You just dont get it do you? Where do you see the similarity between 20,000 fully armed and organized Bosnian division fighting side by side with the SS, and a bunch of Greek snitches? How many could those snitches be? Got any sources on that one? :lol: 100? 200? 500? Have your pick and admit that you comparison is not only irrelevant but somewhat moronic. Again you are humiliating yourself and show how 'small' you are by sticking to a bunch of traitors instead of being a bit more thankfull for stopping delaying the Italian/German offensive. Read more about the battle of Crete dude, and open a couple of good books on why the Germans went VERY late to Russia...


Well... I got news for you my friend...then why the hell it was being fought against nasiz under the occupation still a crime untill the 70's, while the nazi collabrators received pensions in your country?....I'll bet no one heard about this before :roll:(cuz...only a Turk would know such details) ;)

I am not sure i understood what you say here but i suspect that this should be really funny...who received pensions in my country? :lol: And says who? :lol:


You guys are very clever in distorting the history.Just lke you claim to be the masters of todays civilization when you guys commited some of the worst attrocities in the history in the name of bringing your civilization to the "barbarian" lands...just like Alexander the Great being a greek when now it's accepted pretty much that he's Macedonian after Macedonians got a voice recently to tell the world the truth...and just like in this "Greek resistance story". It's time for people to look at things coming from you guys a bit more sceptical and don't jump into conclutions too quick.

Like it or not, we set the basis for Western Civilization my mate, yes the one that you are pissing your pants to reach one day. I am not being cocky here, its that civilizations have to start from somewhere and it just happened that this one started from here. Humanity woke up once more after the middle-ages when it discovered the Ancient Greeks and Romans once more. But you should not know too much about that cause evidently you are coming from a different world.

As for your funny comments on 'our worst attrocities in the history of mankind' and 'Macedonia' i will rescue my brain cells and dignity and not comment ;)

Your resistance forces was not even that much..more or less, the rest of the country didn't mind the naziz...of course including your gov't.

Until the '70s, it was still a crime in Greece to have fought against the Nazis in the main wartime resistance movement, while Nazi collaborators received pensions.
http://www.greektravel.com/greekislands/kefallonia/guardian.html

this is only a part of the dark side of your "civilized" history...I got tons of this kind of stuff..

Prevas pulls no punches as he recounts the atrocities of the Greeks during their progress through the hostile empire. An apt analogy may be the English terror-- rides through France in the 100 Years War. Like the English 1,800 years later, the Greek intruders behaved like an exceptionally disciplined and dangerous band of thugs. Their own countrymen, as Prevas reveals, thought they were just that-a huge and lawless free company. The gleam of the undeniable fortitude that the 10,000 showed in extricating themselves from deep inside enemy territory diminishes in light of their massacres and pillaging. Their endless devouring of the lives and property of so many innocent people along their path underscores the hypocrisy of the Greek's self-congratulatory attitudes regarding their virtues as a civilized people. The courageous story of the 10,000 is also a reminder that cruelty is the death of honor.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3723/is_200207/ai_n9097483

You civilized people invented one more thing....

Kontra1

"We have the Greeks to thank for the invention of religious persecution, a concept then unknown in history"

"Women who allowed their sons to be circumcised were killed with their sons tied around their necks. The scholars of Israel were hounded, hunted down and killed. Jews who refused to eat pork or sacrifice hogs were tortured to death ... Even the smallest hamlet in Judah was not safe from the oppression of the Hellenists. The altars to Zeus and other pagan deities were erected in every village, and Jews of every area were forced to participate in the sacrificial services." (p. 63)

http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_28_-_Greek_Persecution.asp

Kontra1

[Clearday-TRForce]

A sharp rise in antisemitic activity was reported in Greece in 2002, which, in part, may be attributed to the strengthening of anti-Israel sentiments in recent years. A spate of vandalistic attacks on cemeteries and Holocaust memorials was recorded in spring 2002, probably instigated by a plethora of editorials, cartoons, articles and letters to the editor which appeared in the press at that time. They equated Israeli army activity with Nazi conduct and Sharon with Hitler, and accused Greek Jews of collective responsibility for the “holocaust” of the Palestinians. Greek cultural icon Mikos Theodorakis was in the forefront of these attacks.

Chrissi Avgi (Golden Dawn), the main neo-Nazi organization in Greece, publishes a newspaper under the same name. On 2 February the group demonstrated in front of the Palace Theater in Athens where the musical Mala, the true story of a Polish Jewish girl in the Holocaust, was being performed. The demonstrators burned an Israeli flag outside the theater.

A number of ultra-nationalist, and/or religious, and/or xenophobic publications (newspapers and magazines) regularly provide a forum for antisemitic views. In addition to Alpha Ena and Chrissi Avgi, these include Stochos (traditional extreme right weekly), Orthodoxos Typos (non-Greek Orthodox Church fundamentalist Christian weekly), and Eleftheri Ora and Neoi Anthropoi (daily and weekly owned by Gregory Michalopoulos, leader of the extreme right National Alliance party, which defends the military junta that ruled Greece, 1967*–74). The conservative opposition daily Hora, with a relatively large average circulation of 11,000, also disseminates antisemitic propaganda. Similarly, radio programs and national (such as TeleAsty) and local (such as Thessaloniki – also owned by Karatzaferis) TV channels are regular purveyors of antisemitism.


CLTRF

[Lokos]

Getting lessons in humanitarianism from Turks is, always, an interesting experience, I wager.

...

This thread sucks, lads. Let it die, as it should. Continue your battle over in the 55 (56? 57?) page monster there yonder.

Lokos

[Clearday-TRForce]

Getting lessons in humanitarianism from Turks is, always, an interesting experience, I wager.

...

This thread sucks, lads. Let it die, as it should. Continue your battle over in the 55 (56? 57?) page monster there yonder.

Lokos

Lokos, Turko-Greko thread> Yugoslavia Thread? ;)
The Dreamland Train

[Clearday-TRForce]

Getting lessons in humanitarianism from Turks is, always, an interesting experience, I wager.

...

This thread sucks, lads. Let it die, as it should. Continue your battle over in the 55 (56? 57?) page monster there yonder.

Lokos



and of course, it s so much interesting experience "getting lessons" from liables of Serebrenica and others...

[Lokos]

Yes, try to keep Turkish-Greek affairs in Turkish-Greek threads, if at all possible.

Lokos

[Clearday-TRForce]

Yes, try to keep Turkish-Greek affairs in Turkish-Greek threads, if at all possible.

Lokos

and try to keep some Greeks behalf of ur brother side. ;)

[Clearday-TRForce]

In May 2004 Kostas Betinakis, former foreign editor of Ta Nea, the largest newspaper in Greece, accused Greek Jews of being puppets of the Israeli government and of censoring criticism of Israeli policies, which Betinakis labeled “fascist.” His comments were a response to the letter of protest written by the Central Board of Jewish Communities in Greece to the Journalists Union about antisemitism in the media, following the series of cartoons defaming Ariel Sharon. The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) and other Jewish organizations also sent letters of protest to the Greek government over antisemitic expressions in the Greek press.

On 19 June a regular columnist in Alpha Ena, the weekly organ of LAOS, wondered why “Jews who are as numerous as Greeks in the world are sweeping Nobel prizes and world chess championships.” The article offers various conspiracy theory explanations, including the claim that “Jews – who used to be shepherds as opposed to Greeks who were the founders of three empires –stole ancient Greek occult manuscripts allowing them to be 100 times smarter today.” The writer also referred to the US as “Zionist dominated.”

[Lokos]

Could you rephrase that?

Lokos

[Ichhabe]

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/did.panzer/SIGNAL/dak-eau1.jpg

Hans says; Lets have a flammenfest, the gasoline is on me.

[Clearday-TRForce]

But there's one thing that all the previous blood-suckers did not do: They never burned down the forests, into which the guerrilla and others had fled... rofl

[achilles]

Your resistance forces was not even that much..more or less, the rest of the country didn't mind the naziz...of course including your gov't.

Normally i would call you a douchebag for saying something like that but lets no completely degenerate into your depths. Ask my father and my grandfather if they problems with the Germans...ask the millions of Greeks who were starving because of the Nazi occupation and then come and talk to me. The stupidity of your claim is so obvious that i need not further comment on it...you are simply lying...as for the resistance forces, what kind of moronic comment was that? Do you know any massive resistance forces? They are always small bands of armed people conducting guerilla warfare...Greece is a small place anyway but i guess you missed that also.


Until the '70s, it was still a crime in Greece to have fought against the Nazis in the main wartime resistance movement, while Nazi collaborators received pensions.
http://www.greektravel.com/greekislands/kefallonia/guardian.html
Quoting Greek travel? Fantastic. :lol: You can always do worse than i can possibly think of. Of course the way you cherry picked this bit is totally deceiving. Your profound source is referring to the communists, who fought bravely the Nazis, yet once the war stopped and after our civil war of 1947-49, they were treated like animals, as part of the global anti-communist campaign of the western block. Are you suggesting that our post-war governments had implemented a special pension scheme for this small bunch of traitors? :lol: Every communist suffered after WWII dude, and Turkey was quite isolated from those developments, so i dont expect you to know much on the subject apart from what your poor little googling yields ;)


the hypocrisy of the Greek's self-congratulatory attitudes regarding their virtues as a civilized people. The courageous story of the 10,000 is also a reminder that cruelty is the death of honor.

i wish you could see that moisture in my eyes mate...i am touched. Who wrote this, Ibsen? :lol:



You civilized people invented one more thing....

Its those comments that make me thing that you (singular plus plural) suffer from severe inferiority complexes. Turkey has always been trying to project Greece as 'not much better than the Ottoman shame',people with a minimal amount of education and reason realize that all this is a bunch of horse****. Most people know what Turkey was and is, as they know what Greece was and still is, with all of its serious problems. You guys are doing a great job in showing that you are still lost somewhere in the middle-age Ottoman empire, whose positive contributions to the world you have yet to project. :lol:



We have the Greeks to thank for the invention of religious persecution, a concept then unknown in history

You are welcome, its good to see your willingness to thank us at least for this :D I know that history is not something you are really mastering on so i will give you a hint...religious persecutions were launched by the monotheistic and strictly dogmatic religions that invaded most of the world after the Hellenistic period. I am talking about Christianity and Islam...if you want to find fine examples of religious persecutions and millions of deaths due to religious bigotry try reading something about that period. Mixing paganism with persecution just because you poor little googling says so, shows even more how little you know about Greece and its link to the various religions.

To conclude, let me say that obviously there are no serious sites that would bother refuting those pieces of blatant anti-Greek propaganda that you keep posting over and over again. Even responding to your hilarious accussations degenerates my self-respect but i cannot say that i dont enjoy making you look what you (plural) are... a bunch of ignorant Turks who are strictly entitled to deny, deceive, lie and blame everyone else instead of pausing for a second and do a bit of self-criticism. But i dont really blame you...i blame those brainwashing machines that in Turkey are broadly called 'schools'...its a good thing to see many Turks, studying abroad, mainly in England, and its even better to see their satisfaction from NOT being in Turkey and studying history objectively in advanced and respectful academic institutions. I have heard many of them saying...'we came to England and we saw the light'. Think about it. Try to promote your backward amalgam of peoples and dont worry too much about others. Frankly, studying a bit more of Greek history and our classical antiquity, will make you better people. Think about it.

[achilles]

Getting lessons in humanitarianism from Turks is, always, an interesting experience, I wager.

...

This thread sucks, lads. Let it die, as it should. Continue your battle over in the 55 (56? 57?) page monster there yonder.

Lokos

From as far as i remember we were discussing the Bosnian war here until the denial/propagandizing squad jumped in. I blame my self for engaging in the pseudo-debate once more but i cant help it.

If i could, i would lock both this little piece of **** here as the monster you are referring to. Its getting nowhere...not with these people...

[Kontra1]

Normally i would call you a douchebag for saying something like that but lets no completely degenerate into your depths. Ask my father and my grandfather if they problems with the Germans...ask the millions of Greeks who were starving because of the Nazi occupation and then come and talk to me. The stupidity of your claim is so obvious that i need not further comment on it...you are simply lying...as for the resistance forces, what kind of moronic comment was that? Do you know any massive resistance forces? They are always small bands of armed people conducting guerilla warfare...Greece is a small place anyway but i guess you missed that also.

Hey...I never denied the resistance put up by the communists and almost every nazi occupied country had similar movements..it's not unique to you guys. I just pointet out that when you can relate and use couple Turkish incidents to smear the whole nation as "Nazi collabrators :roll: ..how can you deny the majority of the greek population being O.K with it...not to mention the whole gov't voluntarley colabrating with the nazis.Are you trying to say there was 100%resistance and no one accepted them?..probably not right...well that's still more than what you accuse us for.


Quoting Greek travel?
Fantastic. :lol: You can always do worse than i can possibly think of
Of course the way you cherry picked this bit is totally deceiving.

Yeah....it's greek isn't it? and it's a historical fact. Would they come wih any disinformation about your own history


Your profound source is referring to the communists, who fought bravely the Nazis, yet once the war stopped and after our civil war of 1947-49, they were treated like animals, as part of the global anti-communist campaign of the western block. Are you suggesting that our post-war governments had implemented a special pension scheme for this small bunch of traitors?

Yeah...that's what the greek site is saying..I can only suppose they're correct


:lol: Every communist suffered after WWII dude, and Turkey was quite isolated from those developments, so i dont expect you to know much on the subject apart from what your poor little googling yields ;)

Whatever...I think they should have been treated better for what they did for their country regardless of their political ideology. But what I know from what they teach us in our schools that they wanted to establish a socialistic rgme in greece after the nazis left and they didn't want to disarm...and your gov't with the help of brits(maybe U.S too?), waged a war on them...is this correct?


i wish you could see that moisture in my eyes mate...i am touched. Who wrote this, Ibsen? :lol:

I did provide the link to the article...it's another greek author I think ;)


Its those comments that make me thing that you (singular plus plural) suffer from severe inferiority complexes.

Nope...wrong again..if you haven't got it by now, then you're the one can be suffering of that :lol:


Turkey has always been trying to project Greece as 'not much better than the Ottoman shame',people with a minimal amount of education and reason realize that all this is a bunch of horse****. Most people know what Turkey was and is, as they know what Greece was and still is, with all of its serious problems. You guys are doing a great job in showing that you are still lost somewhere in the middle-age Ottoman empire, whose positive contributions to the world you have yet to project. :lol:

hmmm... this is a good one, I got the perfect article tp reply to it ;)

In the Greek case, the pupils are thought to be intolerant of other nations and ethnic groups (outside and within Greece). The Greek educational system teaches them and makes them believe that the Greeks are superior to all others; that the Greeks are the direct descendent of the illustrious ancient Greeks, who are said to be the greatest civilization of ancient times and the point of departure of Western civilization; and that the Greeks (presumably the ancient Greeks) are the creators of all major human values with an incomparable contribution to world culture. Greek students are also taught that their nation is more than 3000 years old. They do not recognize the well-known fact that nationhood is a very recent phenomenon in human history and that hardly any Greek nation or people existed in the classical ancient Greek cultural-linguistic milieu of antagonistic city-states. Again the attempt at historical depth is characteristic of most national historical narratives, but the Greek case is one of the most extreme, comparable only to the Israeli or Ethiopian cases. Furthermore it is deeply held and provides the Greeks of today with one of the most glorious myths ever conceived. It gives rise to self-esteem but also to arrogance and haughtiness towards all others.

Another masterful stoke of the Greek national historical narrative is the fusion of two directly opposed movements and belief systems, namely the spirit of ancient Greek philosophy and culture (which remained alive in some peripheral intellectual and elite quarters of the Byzantine Empire) with its prime historical enemy, Christianity (notably Orthodox Christianity) and the theocratic Byzantium (which regarded itself as the state of the Christian world in its entirety) which was virulently anti-Greek (Greek being defined as heathen and infidel). In addition young Greeks are taught something even more far-fetched: that they have no relation or intermingling and cross-fertilization whatsoever with any other culture, nation or ethnic group in their vicinity. They end up regarding themselves as standing stand alone, unique, aloof, apart and well above all the rest!

All this is deeply ingrained and remains valid for most adult Greek individuals (e.g. schoolteachers, administrators, politicians, diplomats even several academics which should have known better) who do not bother to check whether the information handed over to them in school bears correspondence to historical reality. After all it is such a soothing collective identity for Greeks, so why bother to question it?

Alexis Heraclides

Alexis Heraclides is Associate Professor of International Relations at the Panteion University in Athens

....now a lot of peolpe know about Greeks ;)




We have the Greeks to thank for the invention of religious persecution, a concept then unknown in history


You are welcome, its good to see your willingness to thank us at least for this :D I know that history is not something you are really mastering on so i will give you a hint...religious persecutions were launched by the monotheistic and strictly dogmatic religions that invaded most of the world after the Hellenistic period. I am talking about Christianity and Islam...if you want to find fine examples of religious persecutions and millions of deaths due to religious bigotry try reading something about that period. Mixing paganism with persecution just because you poor little googling says so, shows even more how little you know about Greece and its link to the various religions.

I'll just assume you havent't looked at the link yet and not trying to say "it's all lies"...It's not just any site..it's the people who would know it best.

Here you go..
http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_28_-_Greek_Persecution.asp



To conclude, let me say that obviously there are no serious sites that would bother refuting those pieces of blatant anti-Greek propaganda that you keep posting over and over again. Even responding to your hilarious accussations degenerates my self-respect but i cannot say that i dont enjoy making you look what you (plural) are... a bunch of ignorant Turks who are strictly entitled to deny, deceive, lie and blame everyone else instead of pausing for a second and do a bit of self-criticism. But i dont really blame you...i blame those brainwashing machines that in Turkey are broadly called 'schools'...its a good thing to see many Turks, studying abroad, mainly in England, and its even better to see their satisfaction from NOT being in Turkey and studying history objectively in advanced and respectful academic institutions. I have heard many of them saying...'we came to England and we saw the light'. Think about it. Try to promote your backward amalgam of peoples and dont worry too much about others. Frankly, studying a bit more of Greek history and our classical antiquity, will make you better people. Think about it.

Study and teaching -- Greece.
Abstract:
The Greek educational system attaches particular significance to national history. The continuity of Hellenism from antiquity to the present constitutes an essential component of Greek national identity and is continuously reproduced in school through the teaching of history and other courses and activities. In the highly centralized Greek school system, history teaching is organized around a detailed official syllabus and its single corresponding textbook. In the national narrative reproduced in school, the Greek nation is understood as a natural, unified, eternal, and unchanging entity, not a product of history. The teaching of history neither moves beyond this ethnocentric concept of the nation nor familiarizes students with the production of historical knowledge.

Students -- Greece -- Attitudes.
Nationalism -- Greece.
Ethnocentrism -- Greece.
Abstract:
This essay aims at a secondary analysis of some of the Greek data collected for the Youth and History project. It is an exploratory investigation that adopts an approach based on Social Identity Theory (SIT) in order to identify correlates of the forms of national identification and ethnocentric bias expressed by Greek adolescents. Variables reflecting both ethnocentric and Eurocentric views were found to be significant predictors of the level of national identification. At the same time, high ethnocentric bias was found to be negatively related to conventional views of nations and an affirmative concept of Europe, while positively related to discriminatory attitudes towards immigrants.

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_modern_greek_studies/toc/mgs18.2.html

What Greek Pupils Believe about People from Other Countries: Social and Cultural Stereotypes

Short Description: The social and cultural stereotypes of Greek pupils about the cultural and racial other

Keywords: Stereotypes, Greek Pupils, National Other, Racial Other

Stream: Nations, Nationalism, Communities

Virtual Presentation in English

Abstract
People and especially children form more or less stable attitudes towards objects, persons or social conditions. Attitude is often affected by external stimuli, that is, information transformed into knowledge, categories and intellectual shapes and most of the social attitudes are stereotyped and dependent by the bipolar scheme "me" and the "other". That is the way people classify social surroundings according to the characteristics they assume they have in contrast to their own characteristics. Aim of this research is to investigate the ways of thinking as also the expressions that Greek children use to describe people of other nations. Greek children are asked to describe people with specific national or racial characteristics. In order to analyze their responses we used the AFC method (Analyse Factorielle des Correspondance) and the CAH method (Classification Ascendente Hierarchique). The analysis of the data revealed that Greek children have formulated certain attitudes towards other nationalities or races, which have been formulated by their relationship to Greece in a political, cultural or social level. Certain racial or cultural characteristics were considered as negative or positive according to the coincidence or antithesis according to Greek cultural or racial characteristics.

Dr Argyris Kyridis
Associate Professor,
Department of Preschool Education,
University of Western Macedonia
Greece

http://d05.cgpublisher.com/proposals/282/index_html


I've studied three years In Englad and two years in the U.S...I've met a lot of Greeks during this time...and they told me exactly the same thing...they've been living in a very strange world before they went abroad...


Kontra1

[Kontra1]

Getting lessons in humanitarianism from Turks is, always, an interesting experience, I wager.

...

This thread sucks, lads. Let it die, as it should. Continue your battle over in the 55 (56? 57?) page monster there yonder.

Lokos

From as far as i remember we were discussing the Bosnian war here until the denial/propagandizing squad jumped in. I blame my self for engaging in the pseudo-debate once more but i cant help it.

If i could, i would lock both this little piece of **** here as the monster you are referring to. Its getting nowhere...not with these people...

Yeah...I jumped in just when you were telling people how the attrocities that took place a decade ago in Bosnia can be justified if they could link it up with the fundementalist terror that's going on in the world today...

Kontra1

[achilles]

Hey...I never denied the resistance put up by the communists and almost every nazi occupied country had similar movements..it's not unique to you guys. I just pointet out that when you can relate and use couple Turkish incidents to smear the whole nation as "Nazi collabrators :roll: ..how can you deny the majority of the greek population being O.K with it...not to mention the whole gov't voluntarley colabrating with the nazis.Are you trying to say there was 100%resistance and no one accepted them?..probably not right...well that's still more than what you accuse us for.

You keep comparing apples with oranges. You just dont get it. It makes you extremely happy to put Greece and Turkey in the same basket. Exactly as i described. Thankfully our baskets are quite different. Let me wrap it up cause we are going in circles again, and in quite simple issues. Greece fought the Germans and beat the Italians, Turkey remained neutral and certain Turkish elements (businessmen as well as politicians) have provided Hitler with significant material support, i.e. the chromium we talked about, among other things that i dont want to get into due to time limitations. So where do you see the parallelism between the two cases? Greece fought...Turkey didnt. Digest it. Your collaboration with the Germans goes even further back in time to WWI and even before that. Move on....


Yeah....it's greek isn't it? and it's a historical fact. Would they come wih any disinformation about your own history

Listen, you are not stupid, but i think you ask stupid questions on purpose in order to deviate from the main theme. A site called 'Greek Travel', i am not sure its even Greek, cannot be quoted seriously in matters related to modern Greek history, in any case it happend that some of the points of the article are valid. Yet, you cherry picked and you transformed your post into deceiving nonsense, as if the Greek state gave pensions ONLY to snitches. I explained what happened in relation to the communists and the right wingers, among which there were some traitors. IF you are to quote something, tell the whole story... ;)


Yeah...that's what the greek site is saying..I can only suppose they're correct

You can ONLY suppose that? Well done, thats pure scientific mentality...if Greek Travel says so :lol: . Its simply, you believe it and quote cause this is what comes up first on google. Nope, no masters in Modern Greek history will be granded to you :lol: I tihink i explained quite thoroughly who benefited by whom and why, after WWII.


Whatever...I think they should have been treated better for what they did for their country regardless of their political ideology. But what I know from what they teach us in our schools that they wanted to establish a socialistic rgme in greece after the nazis left and they didn't want to disarm...and your gov't with the help of brits(maybe U.S too?), waged a war on them...is this correct?

Thats what i think as well. But it was the beggining of the cold war back then and being a communist was pretty much being a criminal, no matter their brave struggle against the nazi occupation. Yet, USSR started backing them up and promoting them politically, whereas USA and Britain pushed the mainstream government. This sparked a devastating civil war that divided Greece in two camps for more than 40 years. During the whole process, many of them were mistreated, and thats what your article is referring to, and not some special funding scheme for the bunch of loosers who sided with the 3rd Reich. Plain and simple. Move on....


Nope...wrong again..if you haven't got it by now, then you're the one can be suffering of that :lol:

And i thought you were accussing us of superiority complexes? MAke up your mind, man :lol:


In the Greek case, the pupils are thought to be intolerant of other nations and ethnic groups (outside and within Greece). The Greek educational system teaches them and makes them believe that the Greeks are superior to all others; that the Greeks are the direct descendent of the illustrious ancient Greeks, who are said to be the greatest civilization of ancient times and the point of departure of Western civilization; and that the Greeks (presumably the ancient Greeks) are the creators of all major human values with an incomparable contribution to world culture.

Haha, this is interesting, really. Mr Heraclides is quite famous for his unjustified attacks against the Greek educational system, that has been feeding him with a well-payed position in the Panteion University. He could have done better than that...
The Greek educational system has many serious problems in terms of structure and organization, but bigotry is not being taught my friend. This is another hilarious claim coming from a weird guy (Heraclides) who is influenced by centers that i wont get into now.
I finished school in Greece. Noone told me to NOT accept other cultures, civilizations, ideas and beliefs, apart from the religion class that was telling us that the only true religion is Orthodoxy...as you can see it didnt really get under my skin :lol: Within a few years there will be no such course at all, the current government is seriously considering the abolishment of any religious course.
And yes the Greek educational system is pretty much history oriented simply because we have a rich history that goes back thousands of years. I am afraid the Greek educational system depicts Greece PRECISELY as the result of history and not the result of some sort of monolithic, homogeneous procedure, as the Einstein who wrote the article suggests.
Other than that he is right :lol: The Hellenic/Hellenistic/Roman civilization is the undisputable basis, i repeat BASIS, of western civilization, and indeed had set the fundamental values and seeds of thinking, i dont know what is the problem here...


....now a lot of peolpe know about Greeks

Oh i think they do...quite a lot. But there is always room for improvement.


I'll just assume you havent't looked at the link yet and not trying to say "it's all lies"...It's not just any site..it's the people who would know it best.

Here you go..
http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_28_-_Greek_Persecution.asp

You are not reading what i am telling you do you? Or you do but the crux of my arguments dont seem to bet through...
A small comment on your accussations about this ferocious Greek-antisemitism. Anti-semitism is, or it had been actually, a more or less global phenomenon. Google "anti-semitism" and 'any country you like' and you ll end up with tons of sources, or BS. So i do not see why Greece should not fall into this category, given also our primordial cultural clash: monotheism vs polytheistic paganism. Other than that, i dont see why disliking or disagreeing with the Jews is worse than disliking/disagreeing with any other people. Anti-semitism is being pretty much confused with other things nowadays, like disagreement in terms of culture, mentality, foreign policy ;) among other things. We dont hate the Israeli's guts, man, wake up. We are beyond that, although there are always people fooked in the brains who are still stuck to the crucifiction...as in any other country ;)

The Greek educational system attaches particular significance to national history. The continuity of Hellenism from antiquity to the present constitutes an essential component of Greek national identity and is continuously reproduced in school through the teaching of history and other courses and activities. In the highly centralized Greek school system, history teaching is organized around a detailed official syllabus and its single corresponding textbook. In the national narrative reproduced in school, the Greek nation is understood as a natural, unified, eternal, and unchanging entity, not a product of history. The teaching of history neither moves beyond this ethnocentric concept of the nation nor familiarizes students with the production of historical knowledge.
I have already commented on Greek education. If there are any questions i would be glad to answer ;)



I've studied three years In England and two years in the U.S...I've met a lot of Greeks during this time...and they told me exactly the same thing...they've been living in a very strange world before they went abroad...

Greece has always been a strange world kardas, you are right on this one ;) Amazing how we all miss this damn place even if we are abroad for 6 months.

And now check this out. You proudly posted this:
http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_28_-_Greek_Persecution.asp

Which speaks about religious persecution after the death of Alexander the Great. Yet we have a slight problem here. It is you who have been claiming all along that Alexander was not Greek and that Macedonia was, and still is, a Slavic entity. So if you want to be consistent, blame your 'Macedonians' for inventing religious persecutions not us... :lol: Now suddenly the ancient Macedonians epitomize Hellenism? You are funny...unless i changed your mind about who have always been the real MAcedonians. If you stick to your guns about Macedonia, you MUST retract your comment on religious persecution. If you still feel like sticking to your accussation you have to admit that Macedonia is Greek. Its your call :lol:

Make up your mind and be consistent before you post my friend. :lol: :lol: I told you, dont mess with things that you dont know very well but you wouldnt listen ;)

And since i liked this bit i wrote i will repost it...take it as a friendly advice:

To conclude, let me say that obviously there are no serious sites that would bother refuting those pieces of blatant anti-Greek propaganda that you keep posting over and over again. Even responding to your hilarious accussations degenerates my self-respect but i cannot say that i dont enjoy making you look what you (plural) are... a bunch of ignorant Turks who are strictly entitled to deny, deceive, lie and blame everyone else instead of pausing for a second and do a bit of self-criticism. But i dont really blame you...i blame those brainwashing machines that in Turkey are broadly called 'schools'...its a good thing to see many Turks, studying abroad, mainly in England, and its even better to see their satisfaction from NOT being in Turkey and studying history objectively in advanced and respectful academic institutions. I have heard many of them saying...'we came to England and we saw the light'. Think about it. Try to promote your backward amalgam of peoples and dont worry too much about others. Frankly, studying a bit more of Greek history and our classical antiquity, will make you better people.

[achilles]

Getting lessons in humanitarianism from Turks is, always, an interesting experience, I wager.

...

This thread sucks, lads. Let it die, as it should. Continue your battle over in the 55 (56? 57?) page monster there yonder.

Lokos

From as far as i remember we were discussing the Bosnian war here until the denial/propagandizing squad jumped in. I blame my self for engaging in the pseudo-debate once more but i cant help it.

If i could, i would lock both this little piece of **** here as the monster you are referring to. Its getting nowhere...not with these people...

Yeah...I jumped in just when you were telling people how the attrocities that took place a decade ago in Bosnia can be justified if they could link it up with the fundementalist terror that's going on in the world today...

Kontra1

You just choose to make out of my posts what you want to make. Go back and re-read my posts. I said 20 times, but somehow this didnt get through either, that the scale of guilt is by all chances inclined towards Milosevic, yet i advocate the DUAL character of this conflict. Everybody is responsible to a different degree and by everyone mean the Serbs, Bosnian, those saints the Croats and our dear Albanians. Fairly simple isnt it? I dont see where AQ and all the rest of this **** fits in to my posts.
Please start reading my posts more carefully and take them for what they are, not what you would like to make out of them... ;)

[Clearday-TRForce]

You keep comparing apples with oranges. You just dont get it. It makes you extremely happy to put Greece and Turkey in the same basket. Exactly as i described. Thankfully our baskets are quite different.


woot , sure, Turkey s far beyond Greece...it s well-known in Turkey and around the World. Numbers...numbers...

[achilles]

You keep comparing apples with oranges. You just dont get it. It makes you extremely happy to put Greece and Turkey in the same basket. Exactly as i described. Thankfully our baskets are quite different.


woot , sure, Turkey s far beyond Greece...it s well-known in Turkey and around the World. Numbers...numbers...

Just out of curiosity kardas, how old are you? Not that age always matter but it might give a hint...so how old are you? At least physically?

[Clearday-TRForce]

hmmmm...I m 1 years old, isnt it enough for you??? rofl


Debt – external

Greece: world rank:21 - 67 bl dollars (woww)
Turkey: world rank:53 – 16 bl dollars


Imports

Greece: world rank:34 – 54 bl dollars
Turkey: world rank:24 – 95 bl dollars


Public debt(% of GDP)

Greece: world rank:8 – %112 (amazing)
Turkey: world rank:34 - %64


GDP

Greece: world rank:41 – 226 bl dollars
Turkey: world rank:20 - 508 bl dollars


GDP real growth 2004(%)

Greece: world rank: 114 - %3,7 (woww)
Turkey: world rank: 15 - %9,9


GDP per capital

Greece: world rank:42 – 21300 dollars
Turkey: world rank:101 – 7400 dollars (2 years to 10000)


Labor force

Greece: wolrd rank:76 – 4.400.000
Turkey: world rank:20 – 25.300.000

Unemployment rate (%)

Greece: world rank:92 - %10
Turkey: world rank:84 - %9,3
(germany:%10.6, spain:%10,4,czech rep:%10.6,israel:%10.7,belgium:%12,italy:%8.6

Population

Greece: world rank:77 – 10.668.354 ml
Turkey: world rank:16 – 73.275.0001 ml (if you put other Turkish nations numbers: over 175 ml Turks…)


Population Growth Rate (%)

Greece 0.19% (2005 est.) (21.000 person per year)
Turkey: 1.09% (2005 est) (800.000 person per year – with this rate Turkey will have 84 ml in 2015(just in Turkey)


I m 1 yearsssss old,,,but well-know the noteeeeee...
He ssss sooo olddd,,,but didnt knowwww what we wroteeee...
I mmm 1 yearsss olddd, u are the oldddd... :lol:

[achilles]

I m 1 yearsssss old,,,but well-know the noteeeeee...
He ssss sooo olddd,,,but didnt knowwww what we wroteeee...
I mmm 1 yearsss olddd, u are the oldddd...

^Yep, this guy burnt his engine during the warm-up lap :lol:

Are you now mastering in Economics or what? :lol:

[Clearday-TRForce]

Mastering...

our burning engine...

http://microlon.net/images/banner.jpg

[RGRBOX]

And my Louisiana Balls are larger then yours.... sick to see this thread is still going........................ This thread has Enegizer Bateries.. rofl

[Kontra1]

And my Louisiana Balls are larger then yours.... sick to see this thread is still going........................ This thread has Enegizer Bateries.. rofl

Yeah! It's Miller time! had some good times at USL back in the 80s man :lol:

[RGRBOX]

And my Louisiana Balls are larger then yours.... sick to see this thread is still going........................ This thread has Enegizer Bateries.. rofl

Yeah! It's Miller time! had some good times at USL back in the 80s man :lol:

No ****... were you in a frat there... I didn't go to USL I went to LSU.. but my brother was there in the 80's....

[Kontra1]

No, I wasn't in a frat but I did pretty good anyways ;) I wish could remember some of it so I could say " I'll never forget that Mardi Grass" (the only one I've been to)but unfortunately I remember very little of it rofl .

I was often in LSU, visiting my buddies there. You guys got darn good food,beer and muchos fine lookin' southern belles :D

There was a local group call "Acadia" or something like that? these guys even came to play at the universty in my home town in Turkey many years later :D

Kontra1

[RGRBOX]

No, I wasn't in a frat but I did pretty good anyways ;) I wish could remember some of it so I could say " I'll never forget that Mardi Grass" (the only one I've been to)but unfortunately I remember very little of it rofl .

I was often in LSU, visiting my buddies there. You guys got darn good food,beer and muchos fine lookin' southern belles :D

There was a local group call "Acadia" or something like that? these guys even came to play at the universty in my home town in Turkey many years later :D

Kontra1

I remember that back in the 80's that USL was voted the biggest party school in the nation... and because of this repitation, my brother quit and joined the Army.. afterwards he finished up in Texas... now he's got a great job in Dallas, TX... If he'd finished at USL, he'd been lucky to find a job.... My family are Cajuns, but have been living up near Alexandria for 70 years....

[Kontra1]

No, I wasn't in a frat but I did pretty good anyways ;) I wish could remember some of it so I could say " I'll never forget that Mardi Grass" (the only one I've been to)but unfortunately I remember very little of it rofl .

I was often in LSU, visiting my buddies there. You guys got darn good food,beer and muchos fine lookin' southern belles :D

There was a local group call "Acadia" or something like that? these guys even came to play at the universty in my home town in Turkey many years later :D

Kontra1

I remember that back in the 80's that USL was voted the biggest party school in the nation... and because of this repitation, my brother quit and joined the Army.. afterwards he finished up in Texas... now he's got a great job in Dallas, TX... If he'd finished at USL, he'd been lucky to find a job.... My family are Cajuns, but have been living up near Alexandria for 70 years....


I remember that back in the 80's that USL was voted the biggest party school in the nation

Very true....I could only last three years there and I too quit and went home.Eventually, I joined the Army too(Turkish of course ;) I thought it was the only way to rewind back to reality.

Kontra1

[RGRBOX]

No, I wasn't in a frat but I did pretty good anyways ;) I wish could remember some of it so I could say " I'll never forget that Mardi Grass" (the only one I've been to)but unfortunately I remember very little of it rofl .

I was often in LSU, visiting my buddies there. You guys got darn good food,beer and muchos fine lookin' southern belles :D

There was a local group call "Acadia" or something like that? these guys even came to play at the universty in my home town in Turkey many years later :D

Kontra1

I remember that back in the 80's that USL was voted the biggest party school in the nation... and because of this repitation, my brother quit and joined the Army.. afterwards he finished up in Texas... now he's got a great job in Dallas, TX... If he'd finished at USL, he'd been lucky to find a job.... My family are Cajuns, but have been living up near Alexandria for 70 years....


I remember that back in the 80's that USL was voted the biggest party school in the nation

Very true....I could only last three years there and I too quit and went home.Eventually, I joined the Army too(Turkish of course ;) I thought it was the only way to rewind back to reality.

Kontra1

That's true... I've not heard of one person who studed at USL who had a taste of reality while they were there... except the reality that their degree was worthless.... Go Ragin Cajins...

[Inquisitor]

I'm back!!!! woot

....unfortunately.

well from when I went on holiday,there are now 3 pages of flames....too boring...

@achilles

achilles,we could continue like this for more and more on.You think your way,I think my way.I have also seen you have double standards,for an example,greek nazis were traitors,and our nazis weren't :roll: ...you know,with things like this,we just can't get along.

But if you want,I can reply to every point of your post directed to me,just say...

[achilles]

achilles,we could continue like this for more and more on.You think your way,I think my way.I have also seen you have double standards,for an example,greek nazis were traitors,and our nazis weren't :roll: ...you know,with things like this,we just can't get along.

But if you want,I can reply to every point of your post directed to me,just say...

I was hoping that this thread would be dead by now, i dont think we can go any further than we already have. We interpret the same conflict in two very different ways.

I do not really understand your accussation about my 'double standards', i just said that a bunch of Greek snitches, like there are snitches in every society under foreign occupation, has nothing to do with a fully organized and well armed division, like the Bosnian who proudly fought for Hitler, leaving the Greek ferocious resistance aside for a moment. It still amazes me how easy it is for you, and others, to stick to this bunch of snitches and not aknowledge our brave struggle against the axis. How did Bosnia fight the Nazi-ghost? Nevermind... ;) No matter what you say, you can't beat history ;)

Lets just agree that we disagree and move on...in the meantime you could take a look at this interesting thread and start being more carefull when talking about Greece and WWII:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10963&start=0

[Inquisitor]

How did Bosnia fight the Nazi-ghost? Nevermind... Wink No matter what you say, you can't beat history Wink

never heard of partizans? ;)

I don't wanna beat history,history is my witness

[achilles]

How did Bosnia fight the Nazi-ghost? Nevermind... Wink No matter what you say, you can't beat history Wink

never heard of partizans? ;)

I don't wanna beat history,history is my witness

History sure doesnt help you regarding your nation's help to the Nazis. It doesnt help you either when it comes to Izetbegovic ;) And i rest my case here...

[Inquisitor]

History sure doesnt help you regarding your nation's help to the Nazis. It doesnt help you either when it comes to Izetbegovic Wink And i rest my case here...

I rest mine too ;)

[achilles]

History sure doesnt help you regarding your nation's help to the Nazis. It doesnt help you either when it comes to Izetbegovic Wink And i rest my case here...

I rest mine too ;)

Thats a good idea because you know how easily this thread can turn into a multi-page monster of endless Balkan love and affection p-)

[Warlord]

Interesting how the western propaganda projected the Serbs as the only ruthless monsters the Balcans have ever seen.

Bill Clinton