US confirms uranium seizure

[budanski]

US confirms uranium seizure
The Associated Press (http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8297821%255E1702,00.html)

By Matthew Lee in Washington
January 1, 2004

THE United States today confirmed it had led an operation to seize uranium enrichment components from a German freighter headed for Libya that may have sealed Tripoli's decision to publicly renounce weapons of mass destruction this month.

"A ship was diverted based on intelligence it was carrying centrifuge parts in early October," State Department spokesman Adam Ereli told reporters, calling it "a significant and important development".

He declined to discuss specifics of the operation - details of which were first reported in The Wall Street Journal and confirmed to AFP by senior US officials - but said it showed the value of the US-led Proliferation Security Initiative (PSI).

"What this incident shows is that the PSI is robust, producing results, fulfilling the mission for which it was intended," Ereli said.

PSI was launched by US President George W Bush earlier this year to prevent the spread of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.

Sixteen countries have now signed on to the program, which envisions seizing weapons of mass destruction, their components and delivery systems while in transit on the high seas, in international airspace or overland.

US officials said the October seizure had not involved boarding the freighter in international waters but rather that the ship had been diverted to Italian port where local authorities searched it.

The White House said Bush called Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi today to thank him for Rome's assistance in the global war on terrorism and especially in helping to stem the spread of unconventional weapons.

Ereli would not comment on whether the October seizure of thousands of centrifuge parts from the freighter had been the main impetus in convincing Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi to give up weapons of mass destruction.

He noted that the seizure had occurred months after Gaddafi initiated secret talks with the United States and Britain on giving up such arms.

But he also pointed out that, shortly after the seizure, Libya had agreed to allow US and British experts to inspect its weapons facilities.

"After this diversion, there were certain actions that took place," Ereli said. "Was there a causality? I think one could argue that, but coming to a definitive conclusion about it is hard."

His comments mirrored what appears to be a division within the Bush administration about how much the seizure influenced Gaddafi in the run-up to his surprise December 19 announcement that Libya would give up its nuclear, biological and chemical weapons programs.

One senior US official, speaking to AFP on condition of anonymity, said the confiscation of the components appeared to have sped up secret negotiations between the United States, Britain and Libya.

"This definitely had an impact," the official said. "I'm not a mind reader, but I am sure it had an impact on the Libyans. They knew we were on to them."

But another senior official cautioned that it was not entirely clear that the seizure had been the "only straw to break Gaddafi's back."

"Some argue that Libya wouldn't have come to the table if they didn't know we had the goods on them," said the second official, who, like the first, spoke on condition of anonymity.

"But others would say that bringing Libya on board was a painstaking and time-consuming process that involved a lot of things, including PSI," the official said.

The seizure of centrifuge parts has been hinted at in US and British news reports since December 21, but until The Wall Street Journal's story today, specifics of the previously secret operation had remained elusive.

While Ereli declined to go into detail, the US officials who spoke to AFP confirmed the Journal's account of the raid on the "BBC China" freighter, which is owned by the German firm BBC Chartering and Logistic GmbH.

According to those officials, US and British intelligence discovered in September that the ship carrying the centrifuge parts destined for Libya would be leaving from a port in a Gulf nation.

German authorities were then notified and shortly after the BBC China cleared the Suez Canal, they informed the shipowner, which then instructed the captain to change course for Italy, the officials said.

A US naval vessel shadowed the freighter as it passed through the Mediterranean Sea to an Italian port, where it was boarded and searched, yielding the centrifuge parts, the officials said.

The officials would not identify the equipment's country of origin, the Gulf nation from which the BBC China embarked, nor the Italian port where the search was conducted.

They also stressed the important roles played by British, German and Italian authorities in the seizure.


It seems a few of our European "allies" along with The UN (who just refused permission for US inspectors to participate in Libya) (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/12/30/94139.shtml) and the Muslim nations of the world all have one common desire. They want to see an American city hit with a nuke and (so they believe) for the government and economy of America to collapse for once and for all. It is very clear now which countries are capable of friendship with the United States and which are incapable.

Enough of my rant, Happy New Year :D

[Ichhabe]

Budanski... Have to be honest with you. I am starting to dislike you. You start to sound more and more paranoid. Seek help.

[budanski]

Ah damn, there goes my hookup in Norway...

[ArmedPacifist]

I Didn't know there was an embargo on Libya.

[ST4]

The operation to seize the German freighter was most probably a classic Navy SEAL op. :D

[springwheat]

Its not a case of a conspiracy among european nations to undermine the US. Its a case of the UN trying to justify its existence.

[Dalleer]

Rather interesting, what with Uranium found from German freighters and all...

[Dalleer]

Remember, I don't think it says they found uranium. It says that they found centrifuges, correct? I know what they are used for and all, but there is a difference between the two. Just the same, good to see that they were secured. Have a good one, and just thoughts...

Agreed, it wasn't Uranium.

I apologize for that mistake.

[Kitsune]

Look Budanski

You are starting to annoy me, truly.

Some points: The quality of this article. "US confirms uranium seizure"...which is plainly wrong. Centrifuge parts were found instead. No uranium. Somehow the title suggests that it was some heroic SEAL operation or something...but what happened was that American/British intelligence (possibly NSA/echelon through their routinly tapping of world communication were infomed of these parts, since the freighter was German they informed German authorities which ordered the owner of the freighter to head for an Italian port. There Italtian police searched the freighter and confiscated the cargo.

This is all as it should be. Anti Proliferation Operations like these through international cooperation are a entirely good thing.

Another point: You somehow gleefully pointed out that it was a GERMAN freighter...but forgot the same big letters int the part of the text where the German contribution was described...interesting.
And: that it was a GERMAN freighter does not mean anything. The article of course somehow suggests that this means it were GERMAN centrifuge parts, there was a shabby GERMAN/Libyan deal to provide the Libyans with anything they need to build an nuclear bomb...just to undermine the US of course.
IT DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING OF THE KIND. It just was a German freighter. We have a lot of those. Transporting things from A to B. And those centrifuge parts look like harmless machine parts (well, they are harmless machine parts...they do not explode or something). So its highly likely that the freighter owner, the captain and its crew had been totally clueless.

Wether these things were really intended for a nuclear bomb is still a question. I'm not so sure of it (you need more than just some centrifuge parts to build a bomb...you need uranium, then the bomb must be build...and then you need some kind of carrying device, big rocket or something. I think it was a good thing to confiscate them, just to be on the safe side. But wether there was truly a Libyan nuclear weapons program that deserves this name...

I still think that Ghadaafi is just bigmouthing. And he knows that because the Americans/British are desperately in search of successes he will have an audience.

[DPGLAW]

The operation to seize the German freighter was most probably a classic Navy SEAL op. :D

From what the article said, the ship was not boarded on the high seas, it was diverted to an Italian port...there is no mention of any boarding op....

[Ichhabe]

Good response kitsune. I did not want myself to give a long reply to budanski. Cause he does not deserve it.

I'm getting sick and tired of his gloating articles that it seems that all he want is to discredit any Europeean country.

As I see it, it is not Euro countries that want to see a nuke hit anyware in the US. It is budanski's wet dream. So he can gloat on how right he was. May that day never come.

And to you budanski. >Go find yourself a better hobby than digging up such articles that "proves" you paranoia. Stamp collecting is a nice hobby. The US stamps are among the best, finest and all over best quality in the world. Start collecting them. I'm thinking on getting back to that old dear hobby of mine. And yes, I also collect US stamps.

Thes stamps are being issued next summer. Ease up your heart, start collecting stamps today.

http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/TV2/archive/00128/Frimerke__Walt_Disn_128922a.jpg

[Macs.]

It is very clear now which countries are capable of friendship with the United States and which are incapable.


Well, Rumsfeld already told us long before that germany is a part of the axis of evil. :roll:

[usa320]

i dont think any European countries should be blamed here. Just a German company who was willing to be used as a pawn in an elaborate scheme by an unamed arab nation...

I think instead Germany, Italy and the US should be thanked for there good response to this threat.

[Durandal]

I'm getting sick and tired of his gloating articles that it seems that all he want is to discredit any European country.

Last time I checked Germany was not the WHOLE of Europe. Though of course, they certainly believe they are.

This is also an independent article by a member of the Associated Press.

If B drives you mad simply stop reading his posts. I mean, it ain't all that hard to do.

[Kitsune]

@Durandal:


Last time I checked Germany was not the WHOLE of Europe. Though of course, they certainly believe they are

Germans are nearly as often accused to think they would be the whole of Europe as US Americans are accused of thinking that they would be the whole world. With about the same justification. People write: "I have enough of Schröder talking as if he owns the Saloon..." or something...just give me 3 examples !!! (If this is too tough, try with just one.)
If I look at this site Germans are of course telling things from their point of view...as does everybody else in fact. They seem not to be especially ****e to bragging. Seems less then some other nationalities.

Budanskis posts are not only anti-german...they are even more anti french...or downright anti-EUROPEAN example:


The Europeans, however, because of their socialist laws and oppressive labor regulations, they are not able to make ANY changes to the design or construction once the contract is signed. You see, if you make a small component in, let's say, the UK, and someone in Italy makes a better component, you can't make the change as that would upset the balance of trade and put many people out of a job. The result? You produce an aircraft that is ten-years (or better) out of date.


and downright wrong in this instance, too.

What really pissed me off in this thread was not the inaccurately-titled article quoted by him but this:

It seems a few of our European "allies" along with The UN (who just refused permission for US inspectors to participate in Libya) and the Muslim nations of the world all have one common desire. They want to see an American city hit with a nuke and (so they believe) for the government and economy of America to collapse for once and for all. It is very clear now which countries are capable of friendship with the United States and which are incapable.


grrrrrr...something like this makes me :fork:

Perhaps Germany is not capable of the same degree of submissiveness as some other of your Allies. But we certainly do not want to see an American city hit by a nuke.

[Durandal]

@Durandal...

What I hate is the bitching. As if some unholy injustice is being committed.

As for examples...

Western Europes(mainly France and Germany) treatment of the Eastern Europe is rather appaling when considering trade issues and EU membership.

So, here is some cheese with your....

WHINE!

:P

[Kitsune]

What exactly is "appaling" in our "treatment" of these? Plz specify. That the EU gives billions of € to help them (from which more than a quarter comes from Germany? No bragging, just a fact...) ?

And my comments weren't meant as whining...only justified complaining. The accusation that my country ís secretly working for an US city to be nuked deserves some "bitching". Follow your own advice Durandal and do not read my posts if you cannot stand it.

Anyway what exactly is your problem, man? Motherly instincts towards Budanski?





By the way... I'm not French, so you can keep your cheese and
WHINE

[DPGLAW]

I think this thread takes the cake for the largest amount of stupid comments in one place, well at least that I have ever seen....

first.... ArmedPacifist- you didn't know there were sanctions against Libiya??? what rock rock have you been living for for at least the past decade...do the words PAN-AM mean anything???

Secondly- Although I do think that the Germans wouldn't mind if someone nuked us here in America, I don't think that would take anypart in it as they know we would wipe them off the planet if they did, plus they are a civilized, although moronic, country.

There were many other dumbass comments, but I am going to watch a movie so Im not going to waste my time typing, but man people, some, not all, of you need to think before typing...that's something I never thought I would have to say :)

[budanski]

Seems my comments has ruffed up some feathers. :roll: Whats new?


Look Budanski

You are starting to annoy me, truly.

Some points: The quality of this article. "US confirms uranium seizure"...which is plainly wrong. Centrifuge parts were found instead. No uranium. Somehow the title suggests that it was some heroic SEAL operation or something...
Don't like the title? Take it up with the author. All I did was comment on the article, not write it.

Seems my comments were way off? Well, when you read through as much articles as I do a day, you tend to form a picture on how things are to me. Right or wrong, they're my opinions. The comment I stated seems a little far fetched for you, but to someone as simple-minded as myself, the evil Bush propaganda machine has taken full effect ;)

Germany to sell top nuclear plant to China (http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200312/25/eng20031225_131223.shtml)
Germany’s “Peace” Movement Actively and Openly Supporting Iraqi Terrorism (http://medienkritik.typepad.com/blog/2003/12/germanys_peace_.html)
Who really built Iraq's arsenal? (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31190)
These links are in no way the reasons to what I had said but samples of the types of stories I come across every morning.


And to you budanski. >Go find yourself a better hobby than digging up such articles that "proves" you paranoia. Stamp collecting is a nice hobby. The US stamps are among the best, finest and all over best quality in the world. Start collecting them. I'm thinking on getting back to that old dear hobby of mine. And yes, I also collect US stamps.

Thes stamps are being issued next summer. Ease up your heart, start collecting stamps today.
Thanks, know what I can get for this?

http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues96/jul96/images/stamp.jpg


Budanskis posts are not only anti-german...they are even more anti french...or downright anti-EUROPEAN
Cry me a freaking river... :roll: You act like no one in Europe is Anti-american? God forbid we somehow start feeling the same towards you...

Europe's Anti-American Obsession (http://www.theamericanenterprise.org/issues/articleid.17764/article_detail.asp)
To Hell With Sympathy (http://www.time.com/time/columnist/krauthammer/article/0,9565,557638,00.html)
Journalist is Fired for Anti-US Reporting (http://www.iht.com/articles/122993.html)

If these articles still don't tickle your fancy, all one has to do is type "anti-american" in the google search.


What exactly is "appaling" in our "treatment" of these? Plz specify. That the EU gives billions of € to help them (from which more than a quarter comes from Germany? No bragging, just a fact...) ?
Note, it is the EU that gives billions not just Germany or France yet they act otherwise. Funny how rules are enforced on everyone else except for these two.

French, German arrogance hurt EU (http://www.suntimes.com/output/greeley/cst-edt-greel02.html)
Fury of small states over 'special treatment' for France and Germany opens rift at Naples summit (http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,7369,1095876,00.html)
Euro zone in crisis after deficit deal (http://afr.com/cgi-bin/newtextversions.pl?pagetype=printer&path=/articles/2003/11/26/1069522640641.html)
Fury as France and Germany Escape Rule Breach Punishment (http://www.news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2222474)
Europe: Now it is divided against itself. The chief culprits: France and Germany (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3606113/)
Power shock for France and Germany in new Europe (http://www.forbes.com/home_europe/newswire/2003/12/10/rtr1175908.html)


Anyway what exactly is your problem, man? Motherly instincts towards Budanski?
Thanks but I can handle my own. Can I say the same about you having motherly intincts towards Ichhabe? I doubt it though.

Hey, perhaps Ichhabe is right, maybe I am a little paranoid... I'm feeling much better today. p-)

[Durandal]

Anyway what exactly is your problem, man? Motherly instincts towards Budanski?

I enjoy his posts.

A) They are almost ALWAYS informative

B) They make fancy lads like yourself bitch most the time when he throws in a little social commentary.

We see eye to eye on a fair number of issues. On this one he is not too far from the mark...

So deal man...

rofl

[Dalleer]

Stamp collecting is a nice hobby. The US stamps are among the best, finest and all over best quality in the world

Agreed, I used to collect stamps myself when I was a bit younger. I had these two large "stamp collection albums" where I stuck all of little thingies...

At some point of my dull life as a young boy in suburbia I lost the two albums and unfortunately forgot about the whole matter...and currently, well, those albums are still MIA!

Nevertheless, it was a great hobby.

And didn't cost that much.

[Kitsune]

@GPGLAW: You're country is moronic, too. *Stick tongue out* Baaaaeeeeh !!!

@Budanksi:

When you are posting an article you are promoting it. If such an article is bad or inaccuratly titled it's totally ok to critisize you.

That you read much is a good thing. What you read is perhaps not so good.

Just take your article collection in your reply as an example:

"Germany to sell top nuclear plant to China"
Bad start, because thats a good one. Providing indepth information and a balanced view. Leaves it to the reader to form its own opinion. Would be better for you to read more articles of this kind...
The German-Chinese deal was hotly debated in Germany. No comment here...just this: If the US decided to sell a plant such as this to China Mr.Budanski would probably defend this decision by posting 2 dozen articles. Nuff Said...

"Germany’s “Peace” Movement Actively and Openly Supporting Iraqi Terrorism"
This is ****. In the US live people who are against this war. Others don't accept any technology more advanced than the one of the 18th century...there are those who find it acceptable to have 7 women but inacceptable to drink coke...those who think a blood transfusion would cost there soul...and those who are looking out for the next red-haired women to crucify to make some FBI profiler think...these all are Americans. But one cannot hold all 280 million americans responsibel for their excentric worldview. Same for those Germans giving 10 € for the liberation of Iraq. All in all: propaganda, man !!!

"Who really built Iraq's arsenal?"
OMG. An article from february 2003. "The evil Germans build the Iraqi WMD program!" That is the mighty, world threatening WMD program you found absolutley nothing from, right? No further comment...

"Europe's Anti-American Obsession"
Clear and present misinformation. Inflated, exaggerated. Anti Americanism in Europe exists, thats true. But it is as wide spread as Anti Europism in America. Instead of critisizing it you should take out a bible. In it you find Jesus saying something about a splinter and a beam. Read it and think about it !!! (If you do, I promise to do the same ;) )

"To Hell With Sympathy"
As far as I can tell our sympathy for the US after 9/11 was genuine. We supported you in a lot of ways, be it financial help for the victims, extra protection of US military bases or by sending troops to Afghanistan, Kuwait, East Africa. We did not support your Iraq adventure, because we think was wrong. If this costs us the sympathy of Mr.Krauthammer...so be it. I do not like him, either. (Hah !!! p-) )

"Journalist is Fired for Anti-US Reporting"
I have seen quite a few reports here in Germany about US Journalists being fired because they dared to critisize the US governments policy to much. Add this to our "Anti-American Obsession", above.

"French, German arrogance hurt EU"
An excellent example of bad, biased journalism. Providing no indepth information but revealing the authors total lack of knowledge of the matter. To sum it up: misinformation, but not even intelligent misinformation.

1)"Fury of small states over 'special treatment' for France and Germany opens rift at Naples summit"
2)"Euro zone in crisis after deficit deal"
3)"Fury as France and Germany Escape Rule Breach Punishment"
4)"Europe: Now it is divided against itself. The chief culprits: France and Germany"
5)"Power shock for France and Germany in new Europe"

The articles you provided are basically ok...they are critisizing but are mostly balanced...except for the last article which is simply to one sided. The fourth one ends with statements of the higher economic growth of the USA in relation to Europe, which is leaving out the fact that the US are siphoning off Europes and Japans money...but perhaps not everyone has worked this out. But ok.

Only some points about the matter iself (biased ones of course ;) ):

If Germanys and Frances behaviour is mistreatment of those cute and helpless "small" states in the EU...then the US are mistreating the whole world. In fact you should feel some sympathy for us here: The pact of stability (mainly demanded by Germany because of our obsession with currency stability) was critisized as to strict by many smaller nations. And many of those smaller nations said, that Germans economy would be responsible for the stagnation of the European economic...Does that sound familiar to an American? And now when Germany is not adhereing to it, its of course wrong again. But you can say that:

1)The responsible EU body decided not to sanction Germany and France. We did even had to use our SS troops to achieve this !!! It was an entirely legal process (Compare it to the decision of some Floridan judge NOT to count some votes for the Democrats...critcized, some say it is rigged...but it is legal. Bush is President.)
2)Did it endanger the €? Well, our currency is as stable as ever. Perhaps even overvalued.
3) Germany did not take anything from anyone. This whole thing costs Poland or Spain or anyone else NOTHING. Since Germanys economy is now recovering the effects may even be beneficial for them.
4) In fact it is beneficial because this gives anyone who wants to critisize Germany or France the ammo they need...the Chirac quotation thing was nice but shows some wear after being used so often.



I must say if Durandal says about You:

"I enjoy his posts."

I have to agree. They have certain entertainment value. But the views you provide, the articles you post are definitly one sided and biased. You seem to choose those articles that reflect your already formed opinion. But this is your privilege.

But with this:

It seems a few of our European "allies" along with The UN (who just refused permission for US inspectors to participate in Libya) and the Muslim nations of the world all have one common desire. They want to see an American city hit with a nuke and (so they believe) for the government and economy of America to collapse for once and for all. It is very clear now which countries are capable of friendship with the United States and which are incapable.

you crossed the line somewhat.

[ArmedPacifist]

Excellent post kitsune!

[Ballistic]

:roll:

Not directed at any one person in this thread, but the thread as a whole. Utterly pointless bickering. My opinion ofcourse.

[budanski]

The articles you provided are basically ok...they are critisizing but are mostly balanced...except for the last article which is simply to one sided. The fourth one ends with statements of the higher economic growth of the USA in relation to Europe, which is leaving out the fact that the US are siphoning off Europes and Japans money...but perhaps not everyone has worked this out. But ok.

Thats all you had to say actually, I'm not looking for you to submit the damn articles for a freaking Pulitzer Prize or anything.

What you preach to me you should practice yourself with such statements as the "US siphoning off Europes and Japans money?" I mean come on, WTF ever :roll:


If Germanys and Frances behaviour is mistreatment of those cute and helpless "small" states in the EU...then the US are mistreating the whole world. In fact you should feel some sympathy for us here: The pact of stability (mainly demanded by Germany because of our obsession with currency stability) was critisized as to strict by many smaller nations. And many of those smaller nations said, that Germans economy would be responsible for the stagnation of the European economic...Does that sound familiar to an American? And now when Germany is not adhereing to it, its of course wrong again. But you can say that:
Do I sense a little biased on your part as well? Of course I do, as does everyone else. Ah wait, when the US said no to Kyoto, there were no end of criticism coming from you Europeans. As I've stated before, the US will do what's best for its own interest, as with what France and Germany are guilty of right now. I just find it funny when you guys do it, its quite alright. Anyways, you asked Durandal Germany and France's treatment towards the smaller countries, I gave a series of articles to give but one example. Did I mentioned your gloating on the aid as well? Shame on you. ;)


1)The responsible EU body decided not to sanction Germany and France. We did even had to use our SS troops to achieve this !!! It was an entirely legal process (Compare it to the decision of some Floridan judge NOT to count some votes for the Democrats...critcized, some say it is rigged...but it is legal. Bush is President.)
Get over it. Bush won and its been almost 4 years now. Funny how charges of it being rigged is possible seeing that so many eyes were on the matter for that to be pulled off. Anyways, at least we elect OUR leaders here in the U.S. and not where Aristocrats rule the EU from the top down while being appointed, rather than elected. As I recall, Germany, has elections on the local level, also the citizens can vote for the party for chancellor. Everything else is appointed. (Congress persons and Senators) You must tow the party line if you want to succeed otherwise you are out. Independent thoughts are not welcome.


2)Did it endanger the €? Well, our currency is as stable as ever. Perhaps even overvalued.
Economics tell you recovery is more difficult when you've got an overvalued currency (http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000100&sid=axMuRBM09SkI&refer=germany) in a stagnant economy with double digit unemployment. Am I gloating here? My bad, just the facts.


3) Germany did not take anything from anyone. This whole thing costs Poland or Spain or anyone else NOTHING. Since Germanys economy is now recovering the effects may even be beneficial for them.If taking away their say via votes is nothing, I suppose so. France and Germany sees themselves with 60% of the population and feel that they deserve more influence, but wasnt the EU formed in principle that all countries involved had equal say?

Anyone of you guys interested in hosting the UN headquarters? ;)


I must say if Durandal says about You:

"I enjoy his posts."

I have to agree. They have certain entertainment value. But the views you provide, the articles you post are definitly one sided and biased. You seem to choose those articles that reflect your already formed opinion. But this is your privilege.
I hate to break it to you, but I hardly call the BBC, Guardian, New York Times, Washington Post , etc. sources that reflect my already formed opinion.

As for entertainment value:
What do ya mean, entertaining? Let me understand this cause, I don't know maybe it's me, I'm a little f*cked up maybe, but I'm entertaining how? I mean, entertaining like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh... I'm here to f*ckin' amuse you? What do you mean entertaining, entertaining how? How am I entertaining? ;)
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/149/722983.jpg

[Durandal]

The fourth one ends with statements of the higher economic growth of the USA in relation to Europe, which is leaving out the fact that the US are siphoning off Europes and Japans money...but perhaps not everyone has worked this out. But ok.

(Response based on the papers from last year's G7 Summit)No, not OK. If by "siphoning off" you mean keeping buying products from them and keeping a large group of their people employed, then I agree.

But for some reason I so not think this is the case.

We have trade agreements that FAVOR Japan. In part to keep Japan from dropping deeper into their recession.

Assuming the United States STOPPED purchasing products from Japan, the nation would most likely fall mcuh deepr and probably decline into a depression. IF American stopped purchasing from Germany, the nation would be looking at an vast increase of unemployment, sky rocketing from a 2003 average of about 8.7% to as high as 30%.

Ultimately, a good chunk of problems in this world originate in two places currently...

1) American consumer's willing to outspend their mean (or personal gross debt is in the order of 18 trillion USDs. We consume 40% of the world's manufactured goods. Assuming Americans simply stopped buying at their current rate and lived within their means/paied of their debts (not including morgatges) the world would face an almost immediate recession, or worse, till they found consumers to replace the amounts of purchases lost. Unfortunately this is an issue that is uncontrolable (nor should it be in some ways) and a part of corprate and consumer side supply and demand that ignores geo/political boundaries in many ways. People want to buy and other's supply it. This topic alone could cosume weeks of discussion.

2) The world overlooking the economic and trade issues with China. this nation does not play ball with the rest of the world. Everyone bitches about unequality between the United States and other trade partners...the last one being kicked around was steel...but fail to acknkowledge the fact that China is trully at the ehart of unfair trade practices. Not only does China artificially inflate or defalte the value of their dollar to deal with current trade trends, but they prevent others markets from selling (not to mention fair trade on whole) in what is most arguably the largest consumer market on this planet. Add to this their lack of respect ot intellectual properties (copyrights, trademarks, and patents) and we see, what I consider, a rather horrible trade partner.

Yet, we focus on the United States, while everyone else (including US) deal with these bastards.

So to get back to the "siphoning"...

WTF are you talking about!?

[Kitsune]

@Budanski: In this picture...you are the man standing in the middle, right?;)


@Budanski & Durandal:

Ok...this is totally off topic. Its about economics, so everyone who is not interested should read no further. For those who want to go on, another warning: this is going to be lenghty!

What did I mean with "the US is siphoning off money"? Please keep in mind that this is not meant as flaming.

Ok...lets start like this: Once upon a time, long long ago, after the big war was won, the US were the biggest economic power in the world. They produced nearly half of all industrial products worldwide and the value of all goods and services they exported was far greater than the value of all goods and services imported to the US. Because of this the US $ became the worlds currency: Any nation needed dollars for international trade and in most places were as readliy accepted as the local currency (or even more).
Fast forward: A few decades later, the early seventies. The US have for the first time a trading deficit. They still export more industrial products than they import...but they also import al lot of raw materials (not only oil)...so there trade balance is negative. But economic experts tell anyone there is no reason to worry.
The eighties: the American industry faces heavy competition from European (e.g. German cars) but mainly Japanese rivals...do you remember? How Japanese products conquered the American market? How everyone thought the Japanese would ruin the US or buy anything worthwhile? Companies, research centers, land, shares, even midwest ranches, they were buying everything. (Have you ever seen "Red Sun" with Sean Connery, Wesley Snipes, Harvey Keitel...it mirrors the feelings and fears of the time very well). Japanese products were in many instances simply better than American products. Perhaps there was reason to worry after all.
Mid-nineties, Clinton rule: Japan is in a huge economic crisis...but the US economy is high as a kite. In 1990 the per capita GDP of a Japanese or a German was higher than the one of a US citizen...in 2000 the US per capita GDP is higher !!! The US enjoys full employment, lots of money and wealth and above all economic growth outstripping Europe or Japan...telling everyone how to do it. Economic showcase. There is no reason to worry.
After 2000 there is stagnation again...worry? No, from late 2003 on the US economy is growing again: everything is fine.

Everything? Have the Americans, because of their econmic struggle against Japan become lean&mean economic fighting machines? Well not quite. The American GDP has grown during the nineties, more than Europes and Japans, alright. But during the same times the trading deficit exploded: In 1991 it was around 70 billion $, in 1995 it was already more than 150 billion $, in 1999 it was aroun 350 billion $ , in 2000 it reached 450 billion $. Then it went down a bit (consumption dropped during the period of US economic stagnation) but in 2003 (when the US economy started growing again) we see now 500 billion $ !
As Durandal correctly stated: Nowadays the US consume 40 % of the global industrial production but they produce around 25 % of it. AND they import LOTS of raw materials at the same time ! Even worse: In the late eighties the deficit was still there, but at least did the USA export more industrial products than they imported...only those raw materials made the equation negative. Nowadays the US import actually more advanced technical products than they export ! This is even the case with computers and pharmaceutical products !

Now the 1 million $ question ( ;) )... how are the US paying for this? The value of goods and services the US imported since the year 2000 exceeds the number of goods you exported by more than 1.6 trillion $ ! From where does that money come? Well, actually...a good part of it comes from Europe and Japan. What I called "the US is siphoning off money".


WTF?

This is basically how it works:

The US currency is the worlds currency. Every nation/international company/bank needs dollars for international transaction. They buy their dollars from the US, which means now that the US has a quite a lot of foreign money in their hands. They use it to buy foreign goods: Southamerican oil, Japanese DVD players, German cars, Italian suits...and the $ should loose value. But it did not (excluding the most recent time). There is a constant global demand for dollars keeping it going strong. The main reason is the growing level of international trade a process called "globalisation". (I am not stating here that globalisation is some kind of black sorcery, like some do. But neither it is the easy way to prosperity for everyone, like some others tell it. It has good and bad sides to it.) In essence it means that the US is getting money the same way someone gets richer who prints money.
Another thing: The US is not any nation. It is the center of the western world. Of capitalism. The one who guarantees stability. And (as we have seen in the 90ties) constant growth (assuming you have no clue of the dollar trick above). In the US your money is save...more safe than anywhere else. The US will go down last in any crisis. This belief has grown in many people especially after the collapse of the Soviet Union. And because of this people used their dollars they bought to invest in the US economy, buying loan papers and shares. This stream of foreign investments is currently drying up.

What does this mean? Well it means that something IS wrong with the US economy. In fact with world economy. Badly wrong.
It means that, indeed, the US lives above their means. They are richer then they ought to be. Europeans and Japanese are poorer. Before anyone is now offended: this all came not to be because of some "evil american plan". As Durandal correctly stated (again) these are things above anyones control. Its European and Japanese (Koran, Tainwanese, Australian...) stupidity for placing tom much childish trust in the US economy. And American stupidity as well. American industry is down, the giant US GDP (and its growth) is because of the service sector, because of banking and so on. But because the US are pumped with money no one cares.
But this will not go on for long. The ship is still well...but it is heading for an iceberg. Cause in the meantime three things have happened:

1)The US trading deficit. It is growing so much that more and more come to the conclusion that something is wrong. 500 billion and still growing. If this goes on...600 billion...700 billion...800 billion...(and right now it looks that way!) at some points the ship will hit the iceberg.
2)The €. Here we have a candidate who can take over the role of world currency. The next best candidate, the Japanese Yen, is too weak. The existence of the € could fasten the process.
3)GWB. Right or wrong, his policies (refusal for international cooperation in nearly every way, the Iraq war, the idea to use tactical nuclear weapons against nations, who have none, and so forth) have lessened the trust in the US quite a bit. Many people who once saw the US as a stabilizing factor in this world are now disturbed by her behaviour...which results in less people trusting in the US and more who contemplate how to do without them.

What will happen?
I don't know. If I would I'd be rich.
Best case scenario: Someone does something about the US industry and its trade deficit. Its growth is stopped and it is reduced again. The € slowly takes over the role of an supporting world currency. The streams of money in and out of the US are reduced. We get rid of lawyers and everyone lives happily ever after.
Worst case scenario: This goes on. The US trading deficit reaches 850 billion in the year 2008. At some black day we all hear a maddening POP of a bursting bubble. The US share market collapses. The dollar makes a nose dive. Bad for the US, cause if it goes REALLY bad there is some sort of chain reaction. American citizens have a tendency NOT to save money, many are indepted in fact. This could really get nasty. And it will not be good for Europe or Japan, either. As they are structured now both need US consumption, are depending on it. If the stream of money into the US could be redirected to enhance European/Asian buying power it could be fine...but that takes time. If consumption suddenly breaks off companies will bankrupt and unemployment will rise.

Well, we will see how this will turn out. Perphaps we are lucky. But remember: if anyone tells you a story about the great US economy, that it is better than everything else, and proves this with the high US growth rates or the high per capita GDP...he is leaving out quite a bit. A big part of this is an illusion. Certainly the US economy is no showcase. Not everyone can live this way, someone has to produce things and export them !

Budanski will not like this. But I fear there is truth to this. Much more truth than to what Durandal wrote about the US economy holding everyone afloat out of pure generosity.

PS@Durandal: I think you overrate China a bit. They will possibly become the most powerful nation on the planet...in 2050+ perhaps. This may be even probable. But right now they are not. According to market exchange values (which are more important in international trade than ppp) their GDP is only about a third of the Japanese one.

[Durandal]

PS@Durandal: I think you overrate China a bit. They will possibly become the most powerful nation on the planet...in 2050+ perhaps. This may be even probable. But right now they are not. According to market exchange values (which are more important in international trade than ppp) their GDP is only about a third of the Japanese one.

Nice post. I think I disagree on a couple issues but I will choose to tackle this one.

This is the way I look at it. China is is an enigma in many ways. We look at its GDP and claim that it is weak. I disagree. I think you are about to see an explosion on a scale of post-war America in the next 30 years. I am fairly sure I will see it in my life time. All of the right pieces are getting into place.

The problem right now is they have a totalitarian government, lack of anything remotely resembling free trade, and their entire society is suffers froom a xenophobia that makes the Japanese rather racist views on those not Japanese look tame. It even exists WITHIN the nation when dealing with other Chinese. One has to go. Right now, you have a controling regime (certainly not humane by any standard) keeping the nation together, which as much as I, literally, HATE it is a good thing for reginal and world stability. If China became a nation of nationalistic pride that was unconcerned with reginal/provincial aniimosity, then you have REALLY big problems. An open, internally peaceful society, is just around the corner. Another option is for the regime to maintain it hold on the nation and increase free trade...more manufacturing dollars go there every year, which in turn DO make it to the lower strattas of its society. This means that the Chinese people on a whole have more buying power. They will be buying their own products...MORE than a BILLION consumers. The mind almost rebels when you think of the raw numbers that means. Add to that the ability of the nation to control the value of its currency independent from the Euro (which has been tagged to the value of the dollar) and the Dollar and you have a recipe for disaster.

I read an ariticle in the Economist a year or two ago about how Chinese companies were beginning to develope a textile industry in Russia because it was cheaper to do so there than in China...

Maybe I am being a bit paranoid. I am more worried about the loss of manufacturing/production in this nation, but part of that worry also circles around CHina, because they are part of the equation and because of their xenophobia.

America and Europe will get over their differences within the next couple of years. I do not think any long term damage has been done, nor can either of the countries involved afford to not do business as usual (I personally think that while our nations have been bickering politically, our businesses could care less and continue to deal).

Part of my fear also rests in their obvious drive to match American military technology. They are building new generational fighters and Aegis type ship platforms. Are they trying to do force projection around the world? No, but the Pacific Rim is certainly a solid possibility and a likely reality.

Not good.

Call it paranoia. Normally I am not and usually skoff at conspiracies, but I feel fairly strongly about this.

I would feel less so, if China were to open up and return some of that "most favored" BS to the rest of the world...then again, who knows.

[Seoulstriker]

what is wrong with a trade deficit? the US 'imports more than it exports', so what?

ok, class, i want you to memorize these key words:

market economy
service sector
manufacturing sector
trade specialization
trade surplus


so, the US economy, which is now a service economy, which produces services and ideas. wait, ideas and services aren't quantified in the trade calculation? * gasp * i had no idea!!!

the US no longer relies on its own manufacturing? you mean that the US actually produces mainly services and ideas and does not produce manufactured goods equally? you mean that the US actually specializes in what it does best? * gasp * that is so efficient! we need to stop doing this ASAP and move on to manufacturing again!

there needs to be a trade deficit in order to have a trade surplus? damn! i need to study algebra again! i never realized that countries that have trade surpluses are simply producing manufacturing goods and have to import their ideas! * gasp * i had no idea!



moral of the story: study macroeconomics before you push anti-americanism.

[Seoulstriker]

American citizens have a tendency NOT to save money, many are indepted in fact.

actually, the US is notorious for its tendency to save money. are you talking about credit card debt?

[2Sheds_Jackson]

A lot of people confuse the trade deficit with the national debt. Not the same thing.

So we buy a lot of stuff made overseas. Manufacturing jobs are low paying & increasingly move to 3rd world areas where unskilled labor is cheaper. Americas own or own stock in these manufacturing companies (i.e. Dell laptops made overseas etc.). So we share in the profits anyhow. Let them have the $5/hr jobs and industrial waste that goes with manufacturing.

Unfortunately a lot of these trade metrics are very "old school" and are centered around who's moving the most "stuff". Washers, dryers, cars etc., not software, franchising, contracts etc.

Are Americans themselves in debt? Yes. I was completely debt free myself 2 years ago - then the telecom thing crashed down, I got laid off, and had to run up my credit cards for about a year to pay the bills. I've been back on track for about 6 months now, and the debt is going back down. Same goes for the US Federal gov't spending. Things go in cycles.

Not that things are perfect, but it's possible to paint a pretty grim picture while not really understating the underlying issues.

[Kitsune]

Well, definitions are a bit divergent: sometimes "trade balance" is defined as the sum of all products AND services a country exports minus the sum of all products AND services a country imports. This is what I meant.
Sometimes the term "trade balance" refers ONLY to the products and does not include any services...then the term "balance of services" is used instead for the balance of products AND services.

Anyway...is their a huge difference in the US case? Have they only a balance deficit if one talks about the trade of products only...does it vanish if one includes services in the equation?

Answer: No.

In both cases the US have a balance deficit. Both numbers differ by a few billion dollars...which is a lot of money but since we are talking about hundreds of billions it is insignificant. So maybe the US economy creates mainly services and ideas :roll: nowadays. But in this case they are not able to sell much of them abroad...certainly not enough to offset their product-only trade balance deficit.


And: No...I did not confuse a "trade balance deficit" with "national dept".
:cantbeli:

Are Americans notorious money savers? Perhaps once upon a time. Today they are not. The typical American household has not much money saved or is even indeptet.
Google some !!! This isn't exactly hotly debated. Nor is it hot news.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Again, trade imbalance is not the whole story. Economics is not a zero sum game. Just because a nation imports $1 billion dollars more that it exports doesn't mean it has lost $1 billion.
If I remember right, Ford owns Jaguar, Volvo, 51 % of Mazda, GM owns 51 of Mazda....etc. So what happens to those profits on "foreign" trade? Very complex & it makes my head pulse, much like the alien in the Star Trek pilot.
Wasn't this thread about Lybia & uranium equipment?

[Durandal]

So maybe the US economy creates mainly services and ideas :roll: nowadays. But in this case they are not able to sell much of them abroad...

Of course not, since a fair number of nations in this world do not recognize intellectual properties (ideas).

I'll put it into terms that some of you here will understand, knowing some of you play airsoft. H&K was involved in a lawsuit to have its Trademarks removed from H&K airsoft guns. In the United States, if I recall the details correctly, it was handled out of court and no American airsoft manufacturer or airsoft guns sold through American retailers (unless they are considered "direct" imports have the H&K related trademarks on the pellet guns.

Japan simply ignored H&K.

China rips EVERYONE off, not just the Unitded States. Do you like anime? Go to discountanimedvd.com all they sell are super cheap DVDs ripped in China, dubbed and subbed (in English AND Chinese), full menu options, the works. None of it legal, at ALL. But no one is bitching, or at least bitching loud enough. This example can be seen with almost ANY media of ANY nation that produces popular entertainment. Movies, TV shows, music, computer software. Of course, the Chinese are not as bad as the Russians when ot comes to software theft and sale, but give them time.

I know I have said this before, but CHina even ripped off the AR and produces it via NORINCO (their National "Everything" company) and LICENSED no less to Iran. WTF.

I know this is getting off on a tangent, but when I hear people bitch about there here and now rather than what WILL become, it drives me nuts. China is quite literally the entire WESTERN culture's worst economic nightmare.

[Kitsune]

After an looong time, another contribution to the original topic of this post:


I have read an article about the seizure of those centrifuge parts. According to it, the freighter was indeed German, the "BBC China" (funny named, too :D ). But the centrifuge parts were pakistani. The article claimed that Pakistan is probably one of the greatest dangers as far as nuclear proliferation is concerned. Islamabads nuclear program, the "Khan Research Laboratories" (KRL), are concentrated in a place called Kahuta. To develope its nuclear capabilities the Pakistanis had financial help from Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Libya. The Pakistani middle ranged rocket "Ghauri" can reach East Africa and is said to be developed from the North Korean "Nodong" rocket. The head of the Pakistani nuclear program, Abdul Kadir Khan is well connected to North Korea...

Ah, yes, and the Pakistanis leader of state, Pervez Musharraf, is one of Bushs allies in the fight AGAINST terror.

[Trident-za]

Oops.... can you provide a link to that article Kitsune? Or does anyone have any new info on this "iranium" seizure?

[Midtown]

I bet it was that god damn hitler SOB.

[Kitsune]

@Trident-za:

No, sorry that was a "real" German newspaper.

But, look here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3372789.stm

and here is the New York Times article it is refering to, which blames Pakistan:

http://mggpillai.com/sections.php3?op=viewarticle&artid=4471


But as for now, US officials are hesitating to openly blame Pakistan, since the USA has cooperated with the Pakistanis for years, installing the Taliban as well as getting rid of them would not have been possible without Pakistani help. Same goes goes for the ongoing hunt for Osama bin Laden.

[army cadet_ngcsu]

Well, I think that both kitsune and budanski both offer very good viewpoints and very good information, but the fact is, is that anti Americanism and anti Europeanism is growing on both sides of the pond and at an alarming rate. However, I think that on Europe's side of the debate there are some good points to be made. It is undeniable that the French government for about the past 20 to 30 years has been trying to undermine the US politically. Even one of the articles that budanski posted about Le Monde's article "We Are All Americans" and the other questioning if we're all Americans was very revealing. I myself have spent quite a bit of time in Europe pre- 9/11 and the anti Americanism was already there. The charges of imperialism and hedonism, basically everything they say today. All that it needed was a match to start a flame and that match was the Iraq War. Americans (from the exception of the French) have always had a respect for Europeans and I'm sure were unaware for the most part of their displeasure with our foreign policy to say the least. Many Europeans go so far to criticise everything from our eating habits and music we listen to (our very culture and sense of identity itself) to our president and foreign policy. Even before the Iraq War Europeans did not even give Bush a chance, they labled him as an idiot and murderer (he supports the death penalty). However, they are mostly silent when it comes to the Arab allies and their human rights violations. I know that the US is not perfect and is sometimes baffling, but the fact is, is that we are the nicest world power of ALL TIME. One way or another we've usually tried to "do the right thing" and always lend a helping hand where needed. We are far from perfect, but in the eyes of the Romans, Mongols, Russians, Spanish, etc. we are saints. Just imagine if the Soviet Union won the Cold War...

[2Sheds_Jackson]

You make a good point about how Europe doesn't like American culture. But unforturnately, they don't really know our culture. All they (and the rest of the world) see is our "pop" culture. It's the left wing garbage we spew out of Hollywood. That is how the world sees us.

They don't see the farms of the midwest, masses of people attending church on Sunday, a prosperous and conservative nation. They see Britney and Madonna making out on a TV broadcast primarily intended for children (after all, what adult could watch MTV?).

Another thing that amazes me are movies etc. which depict the "average" American family as living in a million dollar home. I saw somewhere that somebody had done some research & found that the apartment on "Friends" (huge, trendy, in NYC in a good neighborhood) would be worth well in excess of a million dollars.

We're not all idle, rich, deviant, self-involved morons as we're depicted. If I could change one thing, it would be to give Hollywood producers & entertainment distributors a concience.