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farmgirl
01-01-2004, 02:31 AM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1802&e=11&u=/washpost/a36979_2003dec28


Army Stops Many Soldiers From Quitting
Mon Dec 29, 8:32 AM ET Add Top Stories - washingtonpost.com to My Yahoo!


By Lee Hockstader, Washington Post Staff Writer

Chief Warrant Officer Ronald Eagle, an expert on enemy targeting, served 20 years in the military -- 10 years of active duty in the Air Force, another 10 in the West Virginia National Guard. Then he decided enough was enough. He owned a promising new aircraft-maintenance business, and it needed his attention. His retirement date was set for last February.

Staff Sgt. Justin Fontaine, a generator mechanic, enrolled in the Massachusetts National Guard out of high school and served nearly nine years. In preparation for his exit date last March, he turned in his field gear -- his rucksack and web belt, his uniforms and canteen.

Staff Sgt. Peter G. Costas, an interrogator in an intelligence unit, joined the Army Reserve in 1991, extended his enlistment in 1999 and then re-upped for three years in 2000. Costas, a U.S. Border Patrol officer in Texas, was due to retire from the reserves in last May.

According to their contracts, expectations and desires, all three soldiers should have been civilians by now. But Fontaine and Costas are currently serving in Iraq (news - web sites), and Eagle has just been deployed. On their Army paychecks, the expiration date of their military service is now listed sometime after 2030 -- the payroll computer's way of saying, "Who knows?"

The three are among thousands of soldiers forbidden to leave military service under the Army's "stop-loss" orders, intended to stanch the seepage of troops, through retirement and discharge, from a military stretched thin by its burgeoning overseas missions.

"It reflects the fact that the military is too small, which nobody wants to admit," said Charles Moskos of Northwestern University, a leading military sociologist.

To the Pentagon (news - web sites), stop-loss orders are a finger in the dike -- a tool to halt the hemorrhage of personnel, and maximize cohesion and experience, for units in the field in Iraq, Afghanistan (news - web sites) and elsewhere. Through a series of stop-loss orders, the Army alone has blocked the possible retirements and departures of more than 40,000 soldiers, about 16,000 of them National Guard and reserve members who were eligible to leave the service this year. Hundreds more in the Air Force, Navy and Marines were briefly blocked from retiring or departing the military at some point this year.

By prohibiting soldiers and officers from leaving the service at retirement or the expiration of their contracts, military leaders have breached the Army's manpower limit of 480,000 troops, a ceiling set by Congress. In testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee (news - web sites) last month, Gen. Peter Schoomaker, the Army chief of staff, disclosed that the number of active-duty soldiers has crept over the congressionally authorized maximum by 20,000 and now registered 500,000 as a result of stop-loss orders. Several lawmakers questioned the legality of exceeding the limit by so much.

"Our goal is, we want to have units that are stabilized all the way down from the lowest squad up through the headquarters elements," said Brig. Gen. Howard B. Bromberg, director of enlisted personnel management in the Army's Human Resources Command. "Stop-loss allows us to do that. When a unit deploys, it deploys, trains and does its missions with the same soldiers."

In a recent profile of an Army infantry battalion deployed in Kuwait and on its way to Iraq, the commander, Lt. Col. Karl Reed, told the Army Times he could have lost a quarter of his unit in the coming year had it not been for the stop-loss order. "And that means a new 25 percent," Reed told the Army Times. "I would have had to train them and prepare them to go on the line. Given where we are, it will be a 24-hour combat operation; therefore it's very difficult to bring new folks in and integrate them."

To many of the soldiers whose retirements and departures are on ice, however, stop-loss is an inconvenience, a hardship and, in some cases, a personal disaster. Some are resigned to fulfilling what they consider their patriotic duty. Others are livid, insisting they have fallen victim to a policy that amounts to an unannounced, unheralded draft.

"I'm furious. I'm aggravated. I feel violated. I feel used," said Eagle, 42, the targeting officer, who has just shipped to Iraq with his field artillery unit for what is likely to be a yearlong tour of duty. He had voluntarily postponed his retirement at his commander's request early this year and then suddenly found himself stuck in the service under a stop-loss order this fall. Eagle said he fears his fledgling business in West Virginia may not survive his lengthy absence. His unexpected extension in the Army will slash his annual income by about $45,000, he said. And some members of his family, including his recently widowed sister, whose three teenage sons are close to Eagle, are bitterly opposed to his leaving.

"An enlistment contract has two parties, yet only the government is allowed to violate the contract; I am not," said Costas, 42, who signed an e-mail from Iraq this month "Chained in Iraq," an allusion to the fact that he and his fellow reservists remained in Baghdad after the active-duty unit into which they were transferred last spring went home. He has now been told that he will be home late next June, more than a year after his contractual departure date. "Unfair. I would not say it's a draft per se, but it's clearly a breach of contract. I will not reenlist."

Other soldiers retained by the Army under stop-loss are more resigned than irate, but no less demoralized by what some have come to regard as their involuntary servitude.

"Unfortunately, I signed the dotted line saying I'm going to serve my country," said Fontaine, 27, the mechanic, who said he spent "20 or 30 days" fruitlessly researching legal ways that he could quit the Army when his contractual departure date came up in February. "All I can do is suck it up and take it till I can get out."

The military's interest in halting the depletion of its ranks predates the current conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. American GIs in World War II were under orders to serve until the fighting was finished, plus six months.

Congress approved the authority for what became known as stop-loss orders after the Vietnam War, responding to concerns that the military had been hamstrung by the out-rotations of seasoned combat soldiers in Indochina. But the authority was not used until the buildup to the Persian Gulf War (news - web sites) in 1990 when Richard B. Cheney, then the secretary of defense, allowed the military services to bar most retirements and prolong enlistments indefinitely.

A flurry of stop-loss orders was issued after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, intensifying as the nation prepared for war in Iraq early this year. Some of the orders have applied to soldiers, sailors and airmen in specific skill categories -- military police, for example, and ordnance control specialists, have been in particular demand in Iraq.

Other edicts have been more sweeping, such as the Army's most recent stop-loss order, issued Nov. 13, covering thousands of active-duty soldiers whose units are scheduled for duty in Iraq and Afghanistan in the coming months. Because the stop-loss order begins 90 days before deployment and lasts for 90 days after a return home, those troops will be prohibited from retiring or leaving the Army at the expiration of their contracts until the spring of 2005, at the earliest.

The proliferation of stop-loss orders has bred confusion and resentment even as it has helped preserve what the military calls "unit cohesion." In the past two years, the Army alone has announced 11 stop-loss orders -- an average of one every nine or 10 weeks.

Often in the past year, the Army has allowed active-duty soldiers to retire and depart but not Guard and reserve troops, many of whom have chafed at the disparity in policies. Some Guard troops and reservists complain their release dates have been extended several times and they no longer know when they will be allowed to leave.

"We don't ever trust anything we're told," said Chris Walsh of Southington, Conn., whose wife, Jessica, an eighth-grade English teacher, is a military police officer in a National Guard unit in Baghdad. She may end up serving nearly two years beyond her original exit date of July 2002, Chris Walsh said. "We've been disappointed too many times."

For many soldiers who had planned on leaving the military, the sudden change of plans has been jarring.

Jim Montgomery's story is typical. Montgomery, an air-conditioning repairman in western Massachusetts, did a three-year hitch in the Army in the '90s and then signed up for a five-year stint in the National Guard. His exit date was July 31, 2003, after which he planned to devote himself to getting his electrician's license -- and to the baby he and his wife, Donna, expected in November, their first.

"I felt like I'd honored my contract," said Montgomery, 35, a beefy, affable man who holds the rank of specialist E4 in the Guard. "The military had given me some good things -- friendships and the opportunity to take some college courses -- and that's where I wanted to leave it."

The Army had other plans. In March, Montgomery's maintenance unit was sent for training to Fort Drum, N.Y. In April it deployed to Kuwait, and since May it has been stationed in southern Iraq. With each move, it became clearer to Montgomery that his July exit date from the Guard would not materialize. The latest he has heard is that the unit may be coming home in April, but even that is uncertain, he said.

Last month Montgomery rushed home on a medical emergency when Donna had complications in childbirth. She and the baby are fine now, but Montgomery is frustrated by his cloudy future.

"Some guys who are Vietnam vets are with us," he said in an interview at his home in Holland, Mass., shortly before he was to return to his unit in Iraq. "They said even in Vietnam, as difficult as it was there, you knew from the time you hit the ground to the time you returned it was one year -- whereas with this it's really up in the air."

Some military officials have acknowledged that stop-loss is a necessary evil. When the Air Force announced it was imposing a stop-loss rule last spring, an official news bulletin from Air Force Print News noted: "Both the secretary [James G. Roche] and the chief of staff [Gen. John P. Jumper] are acutely aware that the Air Force is an all-volunteer force and that this action, while essential to meeting the service's worldwide obligations, is inconsistent with the fundamental principles of voluntary service."

More frequently, the military response to griping about stop-loss is bluntly unsympathetic. "We're all soldiers. We go where were told," said Maj. Steve Stover, an Army spokesman. "Fair has nothing to do with it."

Staff writer Bradley Graham contributed to this report.

Argyll
01-01-2004, 07:58 AM
Keeping hold of guys who no longer wish to be there can be very counterproductive!
The can unsettle others,they can rebel against the system,they can start to question orders on morality grounds!..........this is not a good idea,but what it's saying is that there are many who are fed up being at war,and who have done their bit,and let them go and return to civilain life!!

oldsoak
01-01-2004, 10:10 AM
I hope they are going to compensate these chaps in some shape or form. A chap who wants to get out after he/she has done their time should be let go - they've done their side of the deal and their families really dont need this.
rgds

Tane Angle
01-01-2004, 03:00 PM
It only delays the problem. What do they do in a year or two? We'll still be deploying, but we can't do stop loss for that long. It's a bandaid on a broken leg. Have a good one, just some thoughts...

ibstolidude
01-01-2004, 03:15 PM
It only delays the problem. What do they do in a year or two? We'll still be deploying, but we can't do stop loss for that long. It's a bandaid on a broken leg. Have a good one, just some thoughts...

Actaully there are several career fields that have been stop lossed for several years, but they use a limited stop loss...
not allowing x-fers, reclasses, PCS moves, only ETS/retirements or if you desired to reclass into a new field you had to re-enlist into it.
I had a close friend, who required a waiver to transfer from unit 1 to another, their sister unit (unit 2) in the same field, holding the same postion, same status, same languages, same war trace/AOR, same rank - because they were not co-located and required a move.

For some fields this has been going on for years prior to 9/11 so for the DOD to act like it is new is not accurate.

Durandal
01-01-2004, 03:46 PM
Proof again that the federal government regardless of who is the president cannot plan for $hit.

A contract, in theory is a contract and while this is the military, not just a business agreement, it IS a professional army and the United States does not have a draft/conscript army. In the 40's, during World War 2 you had guys fighting in Africa, then Sicily, then France. They were volunteers/conscipts and had no real say in the matter. A different time and a different military.

If the governemtn/DoD cannot plan further ahead than this then maybe they need to get the generals that DID feel that we were not using enough troops rather than the ones that kowtow to Washington in general and Rumsfield in specific.

Massive problems...real massive.

Tane Angle
01-01-2004, 04:24 PM
ibistoli, it certainly isn't new, though it has been aggravated by the optempo (and a cut in some of the benefits).

Seiyuuki
01-01-2004, 04:24 PM
My friend's father was in the Coast Guard and retire a few months before 9-11. As inform by my friend, though his father retire, he can still be recalled by the Coast Guard within a one year period after retirement. True enough, after 9-11, his father was called back to duty.

usa320
01-01-2004, 04:30 PM
if iw as coast guard it wouldnt bug me as much, but if i was on front lines, was about to throw in the towel and was told to stay half a world away, id be annoyed, but i guess thats just one of the things you have to deal with twhen you join the militaary.

Tane Angle
01-01-2004, 04:55 PM
We are using the USCG in the Persian Gulf and to help provide security at USN Bases and ports of call around the world, not just here, so a Coast Guard person might end up there. Have a good one, just some thoughts...

WARPIG
01-02-2004, 09:52 AM
Stop loss is a necessary evil. The mistake here is holding the Guard and Reservists to longer contracts. These are the people who have more to lose. If an active soldier goes home he is still a soldier. A reservist goes back to a job, business, or school. Careers and education gets put on hold while your civilian counterparts get promoted or graduate ahead of you. Many people can't go into the job fields they choose becuase the positions had a very limited fill window. Not to mention business owners. Many reservists are small business owners and do not have the support systems that bigger businesses have to run in their absence. Active soldiers are more likely to rent or use government housing. Reservists have homes that may not get maintained while they are gone. This little detail will surely create a mass exodus of reserve service members once the opportunity comes. What will happen to the manpower of the military then? My concern is that with all of the support that the guard and reserve provide and the greater need for them in the future... why is the burden greater for them? The sacrifice is already there. The guard and reserve are expected to maintain the same tactical proficiency as the active components, are used for longer tours, and are also active members of a civilian community. Our professionals, teachers, tradesmen, and students are all taken from their activities to serve. Stop loss may be a necessary thing but some definate inadequecies exist that need to be addressed.

Deuterium
01-02-2004, 10:50 AM
I was Stop-Loss for the previous 2 or so years. It screwed up my retirement plans. I was supposed to be out and back in school making stupid clueless posts on the forum like Ducimus at this point but the Army had different plans. Stop-Loss for Spec-Ops has stopped, for now, for Army Spec-Ops and hopefully it will continue for the next year or so (I get out, hopefully, in SEP 05). When it (stop-loss) first hit after 9/11 the main comment was positive. Everybody wanted a piece of the war. Faced with the uncertainty of deployment (meaning they were not sure they would get into the fight) guys attitudes changed. Being stop-loss just to go to JRTC was NOT what we wanted to hear. As time went on we all got into the fight. It turned out to not be that big of a factor as we thought it would be. The biggest thing it affected was the guys a few months away from retirement. Some had sold and bought houses in a new area, moved their families, lined up jobs/schooling, and had already focused on the next part of their lives. These were the guys that had to face financial and personal/family hardships far and above what a normal/war deployment brings. Bottom line. I chose to be a warrior and if I'm physically able to do the job and my country needs me, put me in coach. Someone has to protect the Twinkie eating, platstation playing, soft white under-belly of Western Society.

WARPIG
01-02-2004, 12:26 PM
I hear ya deut. I think most of us feel this way. Doesn't take away from the ****-sandwich that many are gonna have to eat on their return home. Just goes to show what other sacrifices lie under the obvious physical harm that goes with military service.

I think someone once said that when the soldiers stop complaining.. that is when you should worry.

Tane Angle
01-02-2004, 01:29 PM
Good posts to you both. Dang right, if we're needed, we will go, no questions asked. But we might also appreciate a little help. I think WARPIG really hit upon my concern:


This little detail will surely create a mass exodus of reserve service members once the opportunity comes. What will happen to the manpower of the military then?

We're holding for now. But what about in a year or two? We need more soldiers on the street, sheer manpower. Granted, that manpower must be very well trained, but the point is that we need more people. Only way to get them is to decrease optempo(which in itself requires more people to work) and increase incentives for people to join, including pay, allowances, and education benefits. We need to build upwards of five new divisions now. And during their training, those divisions should be well schooled on Iraqi cultures and the Arab language. If we don't have that manpower, what will we do in a few years? The reserves will empty at the first chance. Once the reserves go home, the active duty personnel can only be in Iraq for so long. It will leave us with still many years in Iraq to deal with, but without anyone available for the job.

Anyways, have a good one, and just some thoughts...

Trigger
01-02-2004, 02:41 PM
What do you think will happen if the U.S. is hit with another major terrorist attack? Say a dirty bomb or chem/bio-weapon that causes massive casualties?
Will Americans respond by signing up or re-upping in huge numbers or will they stop and think about the commitment they might be signing up for.
Is there still that same 'self-sacrificing' attitude that was around in WW2?

Tane Angle
01-02-2004, 02:59 PM
Well, whatever it takes, we need the personnel, and we need them now. It will take more than a year to train people reasonably. We can't be sending untrained people in, and we can't use a draft. Benefits and salary, that's what it comes down to. If we have to raise taxes, raise taxes. We need those people now though.

WARPIG
01-02-2004, 03:23 PM
I was working in my Armory near Downtown Indianapolis on Sep 11th. I can't tell you how many people came looking for a recruiter that week. I had vagrants wanting to come in and arm themselves. I think the same would happen in another incedent. People would get good and mad and flock to the recruiters. .. again.

NcDeuce
01-02-2004, 03:26 PM
It only delays the problem. What do they do in a year or two? We'll still be deploying, but we can't do stop loss for that long. It's a bandaid on a broken leg. Have a good one, just some thoughts...

^ Word


Army Stops Many Soldiers From Quitting
I remember seeing a bunch of articles during Enduring Freedom about 160th SOAR MH-47 crews.

Tane Angle
01-02-2004, 04:25 PM
Two thoughts I forgot, sorry.

The first is that the people who are stop lossed are usually people who have already given our nation and military a good chunk of their lives. Like TF160SOAR alluded to, it's the older, more experienced, less common people, and more difficult to replace, who are stop lossed the most commonly.

And the second, to branch of from that thought, is that a hundred thousand new recruits, highly motivated by a recent attack, but with minimal experience, can't do the same thing one team of twelve 30 year olds with language ability can.

Have a good one, just some thoughts...

ibstolidude
01-02-2004, 04:56 PM
Two thoughts I forgot, sorry.

The first is that the people who are stop lossed are usually people who have already given our nation and military a good chunk of their lives. Like TF160SOAR alluded to, it's the older, more experienced, less common people, and more difficult to replace, who are stop lossed the most commonly.

And the second, to branch of from that thought, is that a hundred thousand new recruits, highly motivated by a recent attack, but with minimal experience, can't do the same thing one team of twelve 30 year olds with language ability can.

Have a good one, just some thoughts...


-Humans are more important than Hardware.
-Quality is better than Quantity.
-Special Operations Forces cannot be mass produced.
-Competent Special Operations Forces cannot be created after emergencies occur.

The same holds accurate for any soldier of quality

Apogee
01-02-2004, 05:26 PM
This is the old military photos I remember. Intelligent discussion, personal experiances. Glad to know this place hasn't totally died.

Tane Angle
01-02-2004, 05:31 PM
Great post ibistolidude. Hit the nail on the head. And isn't it nice, SCUBA?

ibstolidude
01-02-2004, 06:42 PM
don't let me take credit for those statements.

They are the "SOF Truths"..

Tane Angle
01-02-2004, 06:56 PM
And the guy gives credit. What a guy! Take a bow, bud.