Brazil Begins Fingerprinting U.S. Travelers

[Seraphim]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=1&u=/nm/20040101/ts_nm/brazil_usa_immigration_dc


BRASILIA, Brazil (*******) - Brazil on Thursday began fingerprinting and photographing U.S. visitors on orders of a judge who compared planned U.S. security controls on travelers from Brazil and other nations to Nazi horrors.



Federal Judge Julier Sebastiao da Silva, furious at U.S. plans to fingerprint and photograph millions of visitors on entering the United States, ordered Brazil's authorities do the same to U.S. citizens starting on Thursday.


"We've begun doing this," said a Federal Police spokeswoman at Brazil's Guarulhos International Airport in Sao Paulo.


The judge's order came after a Brazilian (news - web sites) government citizen rights agency filed a complaint in federal court over the U.S. measure.


The US-VISIT system is meant to identify people who have violated immigration controls, have a criminal record or belong to groups the U.S. government lists as terrorist organizations.


Starting on Monday, people who need visas to enter the United States will be fingerprinted and photographed when they pass through immigration at major U.S. airports and seaports.


The measure does not apply to citizens of 27, mainly European, nations who do not need a visa to enter the United States.


"I consider the act absolutely brutal, threatening human rights, violating human dignity, xenophobic and worthy of the worst horrors committed by the Nazis," said Sebastiao da Silva in the court order released on Tuesday.


Officials at the U.S. Embassy in Brazil were not immediately available to comment on Brazil's decision.


Brazil requires U.S. citizens to have a visa when entering the country.

[mustamato]

Well, I don´t hope that the americans are too upset by this, since USA demands that foreigners coming in to USA has something similar, the new EU-passes will have fingerprints from 2004, and that is really something USA has demanded, not the europeans themselfes. That sucks bigtime.

"I consider the act absolutely brutal, threatening human rights, violating human dignity, xenophobic and worthy of the worst horrors committed by the Nazis," said Sebastiao da Silva in the court order released on Tuesday."

So true.

[usa320]

"I consider the act absolutely brutal, threatening human rights, violating human dignity, xenophobic and worthy of the worst horrors committed by the Nazis

If you think thats so true you must be snorting some POWERFUL cocaine up your nose.


Comparing fingerprinting idividuals tied to crime or terrorism as they enter the country to *gassing* *burning* *raping* and *human experiments* is not only outragous, but its disgusting.

I think every country SHOULD fingerprint people no matter where the hell they are from. The bigger the worldwide intelligence network is and the more information on suspect persons taht is availible, the easier it will be to respond and prevent terrorist acts across the globe.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Its easy to change and alter your fingerprints. Fingerprinting people may help some but it still wont take away the risk. The only effective way is good intel.

[mustamato]

"I think every country SHOULD fingerprint people no matter where the hell they are from. The bigger the worldwide intelligence network is and the more information on suspect persons taht is availible, the easier it will be to respond and prevent terrorist acts across the globe."

Yeah and how wonderfull it would be if there are some Al-Qaida that has infiltrated one of those agencies and can sit there and only with that fingerprint database check out almost everything about you. You should read Orwells 1984. How would you feel if some brazilians took a photo of you and took your fingerprints, would it feel good to know that you ended up in their database?

Here in Sweden we have quite a unique database, everyone born in Sweden since the 70´s have a bloodsample taken. From that bloodsample you can also take DNA-samples. That was how the police managed to catch the one that stabbed our prime minister in september. Officially that bloodsample is not allowed to be used that way due to the integrity of each individual, but that is one clear example of how it will go also with that fingerprint database. It will be missused. Believing something else is just naive.

[usa320]

The chance of AL Queda infiltrating the CIA or DHS is Laughable.

And why would i care if the Brazilian authorities could have my photo and fingerprint? If i have nothing to hide, i have nothing to fear, and if i have something to fear, than chances are, i probably desrve that fear.

[Fioraon]

Afraid? Use sand paper, works wonders.

[Beowulf]

The chance of AL Queda infiltrating the CIA or DHS is Laughable.

And why would i care if the Brazilian authorities could have my photo and fingerprint? If i have nothing to hide, i have nothing to fear, and if i have something to fear, than chances are, i probably desrve that fear.

Then you wouldn't object to your home being randomly searched by the police?

You should have nothing to fear, that is unless you've done something wrong....


Think it can't happen? It has.

In the early 90's some cities experimented with "sweeps" of houses in low income areas. Bill Clinton praised the program and wanted to get it adopted nationwide. Luckily, they were ruled as a clear violation of the fourth amendment in 1995.

Fingerprinting, national databases, warrantless searches and the like are a slippery slope in terms of personal liberties. Some are reasonable; I allow the state to fingerprint me so that I may receive the privilege of a driver's license, for example.

I only mention it to point out the potential hazards in your line of thinking, remember that power and information can be easily misused. That is why we have checks and balances, there is always a very difficult balancing act that must be kept up.

-b

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

I dont give a flying f*ck if I did anything bad or not im not a fan of "random" searches of property/cars/persons. Go after the real criminals like the dudes slanging crack on the street corner or pimpin ho's.

Besides b is right, it goes threw and totally tears apart the consitution and dis-regards it (same in Canada). Everyone has a right to privacy, by taking away that one right it nullifies all the other rights we do have.

[usa320]

I read this on another forum, written by a Brazilian airport worker:


As for the US decision to fingerprint and photograph, I can certainly see why this measure was adopted. The one thing that worries me is that terrorists might try to take advantage of the visa exemption that the US gives citizens from several European countries. They don't have to get fingerprinted or have their picture taken when entering the US. TSA should photograph and fingerprint those people as well to prevent possible security loopholes.


He proves one hell of a point. If terrorists want in they are going to go through Europe where there is no need for photos or fingerprints or VISAs. Hence the scrutiny over BA and Air France flights lately.

;)

[mustamato]

He proves one hell of a point. If terrorists want in they are going to go through Europe where there is no need for photos or fingerprints or VISAs. Hence the scrutiny over BA and Air France flights lately.

;)

On the other side USA is still demanding that people from these VISA-free countries show a passport that can be readed by a machine, and all EU-passes will from the 1st of January 2004 have a photo and fingerprints. So even if you travel from France or whatever and don´t have to have a VISA you still end up getting your personal information in a US database. And that information is automatically checked up, and if something is wrong (as would be the case if the passport is fake), well...

Personally I think that as soon as I get my new passport and get my fingerprints in it all my personal data with my fingerprints can be found in a US database just a couple of days later. I don´t have to personally visit US at all. Our pussy governement is very US-friendly and would never even dear of denying US something like that.

[Deuterium]

I don't see it as being unreasonable for ANY country to demand that visitors show their credentials. We’ve paid the price for lax border policies and the inability to ensure people with expired visas are deported. Philosophically I don't see any difference between a passport and a fingerprint. The problem, as I see it, is the safe storage of this information. If I want to go to Rio and they require my fingerprint and photo, fine with me.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I really do not see this as a big deal, my only gripe would be if the finger printing process was unduly long. Although terrorists and crooks will find ways round finger printing on arrival in a country it does go some way to creating a more restrictive environment for them to operate in.

[JMooch]

Brazil should pay attention to what goes on within it's own borders before playing this tit-for-tat game with the US. Should we talk about the amount of Muslim extremists that are in Brazil using it for a base of operations? Al-Qaeda is using Brazil (and a large portion of South America in general) as a conduit to move people into the US to conduct operations. Why...because it's easier to obtain false travel documents and bribe officials in those countries because of the poor economy.
"If you're not with us, then you're against us"
Sit down, shut up and stay out of the way.
S/F
Mooch

[cut]

this kind of visa tit-for-tat is common. in lots of places I've been to, americans have to pay loads more for visas than Brits, because the american charges so much to the people from that country buying american visas.

I think it's fair.

Besides I didn't even need a visa to go to brazil last summer.

[He219]

Well, I don´t hope that the americans are too upset by this, since USA demands that foreigners coming in to USA has something similar, the new EU-passes will have fingerprints from 2004, and that is really something USA has demanded, not the europeans themselfes. That sucks bigtime.

"I consider the act absolutely brutal, threatening human rights, violating human dignity, xenophobic and worthy of the worst horrors committed by the Nazis," said Sebastiao da Silva in the court order released on Tuesday."

So true.
:roll:
Whatever Fruitcake!

Ever hear of eugenics (http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9901/26/sweden.sterilization/)?

Norway and Sweden passed compulsory sterilisation laws in 1934. A year later, Denmark and Finland followed suit. These laws allowed the sterilisation of the mentally ill, the mentally deficient, epileptics, and patients suffering from hereditary diseases. Parents deemed incapable of raising their children properly could also be sterilised. The mass sterilisation policy claimed 40,000 victims in Norway and 6,000 in Denmark.

In 1921 Sweden had become the first country to establish a state institute of racial biology. It pursued its compulsory sterilisation policy until 1976, as part of a social and racial hygiene programme (The Guardian, London, 6 March 1999.). The victims totalled around 63,000.

In March 1998, after a six-month long investigation, an official committee of inquiry proposed compensation of up to 175,000 Swedish kronor ($21,000) for the victims. The enabling legislation was passed by the Swedish parliament on 19 May of this year. The surviving victims, estimated at between 6,000 and 15,000, will nevertheless be required to prove they were sterilised against their wishes for "psychological disorders", "epilepsy" or "other forms of mental deficiency". So, if they can overcome the feelings of shame and humiliation that have kept them silent for so long, they will be faced with this further obstacle

http://mondediplo.com/1999/10/11gypsy

[usa320]

I don't see it as being unreasonable for ANY country to demand that visitors show their credentials. We’ve paid the price for lax border policies and the inability to ensure people with expired visas are deported. Philosophically I don't see any difference between a passport and a fingerprint. The problem, as I see it, is the safe storage of this information. If I want to go to Rio and they require my fingerprint and photo, fine with me.

AMEN DEUT.

We cannot afford any longer to have weak border security. Its ironic that the same people bitching 2 years ago that the INS failed are the same people bitching now about "Nazistic" border security.

I say **** em.

We cant afford another 9-11.

And thankfully for us, the terrorists wouldnt be able to afford, or survive the retaliation that would follow.

[Sauron]

Brazil should pay attention to what goes on within it's own borders before playing this tit-for-tat game with the US. Should we talk about the amount of Muslim extremists that are in Brazil using it for a base of operations? Al-Qaeda is using Brazil (and a large portion of South America in general) as a conduit to move people into the US to conduct operations. Why...because it's easier to obtain false travel documents and bribe officials in those countries because of the poor economy.
"If you're not with us, then you're against us"
Sit down, shut up and stay out of the way.
S/F
Mooch

I am not talking for all the Sounth America countries...but at least in Argentina there isn't any Al-Qaeda Terrorist planing an attack against the USA...that's for sure

[JMooch]

"but at least in Argentina there isn't any Al-Qaeda Terrorist planing an attack against the USA...that's for sure"

Sure thing stud...whatever you say.
S/F
Mooch

[aktarian]

I read this on another forum, written by a Brazilian airport worker:


As for the US decision to fingerprint and photograph, I can certainly see why this measure was adopted. The one thing that worries me is that terrorists might try to take advantage of the visa exemption that the US gives citizens from several European countries. They don't have to get fingerprinted or have their picture taken when entering the US. TSA should photograph and fingerprint those people as well to prevent possible security loopholes.


He proves one hell of a point. If terrorists want in they are going to go through Europe where there is no need for photos or fingerprints or VISAs. Hence the scrutiny over BA and Air France flights lately.

;)

I think you are mising the point about VISA-free states. Let's take Brit and Pakistani for example. If you are Brit it woun't matter from where you fly, you woun't need visa. If you fly from UK or Pakistan you will be treated same, that is less inspections. If you are Pakistani it woun't matter where you fly from, you'll still need a visa. These regulations depend on your citizenship, not your departure place.

Since we in Slovenia don't need visas for US US watches us more closelly. Couple of years ago some passport blanks were stolen (passport booklets without info filed in and no pic). US was watching investigation of this very closely, because this could turn up god knows where. and that was prior to 11.9.01

[budanski]

Brazil...Who cares.

Totally up to Brasil to do what they want. Anyways, travellers to Brazil have quickly figured out a sure-fire way around this fingerprinting if they wish to avoid it: don't go to Brazil.

[Whistler]

One more reason not to visit Brazil...

Like others have said, they should solve their own countries problems before playing tit for tat over how the US deals with theirs. Comparing fingerprinting to Nazi concentration camps is a joke :roll: .

Ya... the magic US CIA will look at your fingerprints and suddenly figure out all your secrets about how you sit down to take a piss and like to fart in the bath tub. Give me a break.

[Deuterium]

Also remember statistics vary but only around 10-20% of Americans own passports. Suffice to say we just could care less about international travel.

[Deuterium]

One more reason not to visit Brazil...

Like others have said, they should solve their own countries problems before playing tit for tat over how the US deals with theirs. Comparing fingerprinting to Nazi concentration camps is a joke :roll: .

Ya... the magic US CIA will look at your fingerprints and suddenly figure out all your secrets about how you sit down to take a piss and like to fart in the bath tub. Give me a break.

Well said.

[Sauron]

ohh fingerprinting big deal...dont be stupid..nobody will refuse going to brazil for holiday cos they started doing fingerprinting.

[OldRecon]

The chance of AL Queda infiltrating the CIA or DHS is Laughable.

And why would i care if the Brazilian authorities could have my photo and fingerprint? If i have nothing to hide, i have nothing to fear, and if i have something to fear, than chances are, i probably desrve that fear.


Well if KGB/FSB could/can, why can't Al Qaida? rofl
Were after all talking about humans here. And all humans have weak spots. Ie. the more people an organisation contains the greater potential for weak spots.
As for "having nothing to hide". That may so be. But if you want to build a fake identity for someone in order to help him/her to evade the long arm of the government, you'll be thankfull for any information on ordinary citizens that you can get your hand on.

[JMooch]

Yeah it's really smart for Americans to allow themselves to be fingerprinted and their pictures and travel history within a certain country to be documented by another country. And of course no one, especially terrorist organizations with plenty of money could never bribe anyone for access to that info. It's not like Americans are targets of international terrorism and have anything to fear.
People need to wake up to the realities of this world.
S/F
Mooch

[Sauron]

Yeah it's really smart for Americans to allow themselves to be fingerprinted and their pictures and travel history within a certain country to be documented by another country. And of course no one, especially terrorist organizations with plenty of money could never bribe anyone for access to that info. It's not like Americans are targets of international terrorism and have anything to fear.
People need to wake up to the realities of this world.
S/F
Mooch

i don't understand ur point

[JMooch]

What's not to understand? Americans are targets world over. If a foreign country with a history of corruption is allowed to maintain a picture and fingerprint archive of Americans that travel there and then factor into that a sunbstantial Islamic Fundelmentalist minority living in that country, don't you think it reasonable for the chance that that archive could be used to target Americans for terrorist attacks. Considering the fact that those perpetrating the majority of terrorist attacks against Americans are Islamic Fundelmentalists?

Let's break it down for you:
Terrorist who hate Americans and want to see them die = Islamic Fundelmentalists
South American country with substantial Islamic Fundelmentalists contingent = Brazil
South American country photoing/fingerprinting US citizens = Brazil
Terrorists with substantial amounts of cash to finance operations against Americans = Islamic Fundelmentalists
Terrorists who would use photo/fingerprint info to aid in attacking Americans = Islamic Fundelmentalists
People who would possibly die because of Brazilian policy = Americans

Is the lightbulb clicking on for you big guy? The information being collected on Americans travelling to Brazil could be used by terrorists to kill them. I couldn't spell it out for you any clearer.
S/F
Mooch

[non-zero possibility]

Beowulf- (sorry this has probobly been said but I didnt want too read through this all) Compairing home sweeps to fingerprinting is not a good comparison, I have nothing to hide in my home, none the less I agree home sweeps is a invasion of privacy, now... what can I hide in my fingerprint, well, hold on... no.... wel... Nothing, nothing except if I was in trouble by the police ect, therfor, I dont have anything to worry about when I get my fingerprint taken, And it dose not interfear with my comfort level, and thus this is nothing like a home sweep. So that comparison is obviously not a fair one to make.

Oldrecon- KGB was a special group of individuals financed by a massive supercountry, with billions of dolars poured into infiltration and espiounauge, Al quaida is a while large and high funded terrorist group, a relativly poor group at infiltration in the sense of integraiting into a major high security, heavy background checked group, think about it, You proboly would have a large bunch of trouble getting a high ranked goverment job for the CIA or DHS if your a imagrent from major middle eastern/extreemest/ countries, much less even a immagrant, If you were born in the us I am sure they would have had to make some flight to the middle east over the course of their working with the terrorists to train ext, thus that too can be tracked, So connecting the kgb and al-quadia together is not a good argument.

Jmooch, there is a difference between fundamentalist's and extreemist, FUNDAMENTALLY i belive in a set of morals yet I am not bringing that to a EXTREEM by forcing that very way onto others. Brazil may be a primaraly Islamic fundamentalist country but they by no means are a Extreemist country, I do not fear a fundamentalist its when fundamentalists attack others for their belifes do I fear them, I fear them because they have become. Extreemists.

[Sauron]

What's not to understand? Americans are targets world over. If a foreign country with a history of corruption is allowed to maintain a picture and fingerprint archive of Americans that travel there and then factor into that a sunbstantial Islamic Fundelmentalist minority living in that country, don't you think it reasonable for the chance that that archive could be used to target Americans for terrorist attacks. Considering the fact that those perpetrating the majority of terrorist attacks against Americans are Islamic Fundelmentalists?

Let's break it down for you:
Terrorist who hate Americans and want to see them die = Islamic Fundelmentalists
South American country with substantial Islamic Fundelmentalists contingent = Brazil
South American country photoing/fingerprinting US citizens = Brazil
Terrorists with substantial amounts of cash to finance operations against Americans = Islamic Fundelmentalists
Terrorists who would use photo/fingerprint info to aid in attacking Americans = Islamic Fundelmentalists
People who would possibly die because of Brazilian policy = Americans

Is the lightbulb clicking on for you big guy? The information being collected on Americans travelling to Brazil could be used by terrorists to kill them. I couldn't spell it out for you any clearer.
S/F
Mooch

i don't think they will attack tourist...and it's useless to have information of normal people.

I think americans re too freak..they re always expecting the worst. Do u really think that u 4 example re on holiday in brazil...and some terrorist pay for ur information so they can kill u in the beach???

[JMooch]

"i don't think they will attack tourist...and it's useless to have information of normal people."

tourist = normal people
I would say the 3000+ people at work at the World Trade Center would be considered normal people, yet they were attacked.

"I think americans re too freak..they re always expecting the worst."

Sept. 11 will do that to you. Let me know how you feel when Argentinians are routinely targetted by terrorists.

[non-zero possibility]

Brazil- not terrorists,

[Beowulf]

Beowulf- (sorry this has probobly been said but I didnt want too read through this all) Compairing home sweeps to fingerprinting is not a good comparison, I have nothing to hide in my home, none the less I agree home sweeps is a invasion of privacy, now... what can I hide in my fingerprint, well, hold on... no.... wel... Nothing, nothing except if I was in trouble by the police ect, therfor, I dont have anything to worry about when I get my fingerprint taken, And it dose not interfear with my comfort level, and thus this is nothing like a home sweep. So that comparison is obviously not a fair one to make.



...I only mention it to point out the potential hazards in your line of thinking,...

[Hydro]

You think terrorists won't attack tourists? Take a trip to Bali and say that.
ETA are also a wee bit partial to detonating car bombs in holiday resorts.

Americans always expect the worst? You should ALWAYS expect the worst. Nothing like having a huge **** storm blow up and not being prepared to deal with it.

[Sauron]

"i don't think they will attack tourist...and it's useless to have information of normal people."

tourist = normal people
I would say the 3000+ people at work at the World Trade Center would be considered normal people, yet they were attacked.

"I think americans re too freak..they re always expecting the worst."

Sept. 11 will do that to you. Let me know how you feel when Argentinians are routinely targetted by terrorists.

I know it isn't nice to be attacked, furthermore the CIA told Argentina that it was very probably for us to be again targetted by terrorist...And i said again cos we ve already been attacked ones (AMIA). But not for that i will stop living like a normal person. So if u wanna be ready for a possible attack, it's ok...but say i'll not go to brazil cos they re terrorist, that's stupid

and conerning the World trade Center that is very diferent from what i said cos that building was a symbol of economic power.

Ps: Sorry for s*ckin' in inglish

[Loco]

i don't think they will attack tourist...and it's useless to have information of normal people.

I think americans re too freak..they re always expecting the worst. Do u really think that u 4 example re on holiday in brazil...and some terrorist pay for ur information so they can kill u in the beach???
Tourists are a routine target for terrorists of any group. ETA try every summer of blowing bombs in spanish´s touristic areas, if they didn´t a massacre until now is because the big resources spanish police uses for eviting it. Talking of SAmerica, recently were liberated a group of tourists kidnapped in Colombia by the FARC. In Omagh, a touristic town in Ulster, more than 20 people died because a terrorist bomb in the main street, some of them being spanish students. In Marroq last year muslim terrorists blew up a touristic spanish center in Casablanca, they got into the place after beheading the vigilant one, they caused a lot of victims: spanish, marroquies and other. In Tunez, after 11-september, muslim terrorists massacred a group of tourists, the most of them germans, in a touristic resort near the beach. In Bali, Indonesia, muslim terrorists blew up a Disco full of tourists, more than 200 tourists an indonesians died. Few years before 11-september muslims terrorists killed in a hotel in Marroq a group of spanish tourists. Few years before the 11-september, muslim terrorists riddled and killed during 30 minutes defenseless tourists in Egypt, in a raised area without possible refuge I believe than next to the grave of queen Hatshepsut, about 58 tourists, mainly swisses died. It´s not necessary to speak about the Argentinian's case, where probably because of the arabic connection of a former Argentine president, few things have been obtained in the investigations.
As I see, tourists are an easy target in 4 continents, and since the job of muslim terrorists is spreading terror, the choice is easy.

[Sauron]

O_O ok u re right, anyway it's difficult to believe that brazil ve conections with terrorists groups.

[mustamato]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/01/05/fingerprint.program/index.html

[NcDeuce]

Fook Brazil

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

If anything Brazils visitor monitoring program might help assist the authorities in the hunt for European, Canadian and American *** tourists that prey on children in that country, Brazil has a pretty poor record on child protection but are under preassure by other states to improve it, Interpol has cooperated with Brazil on this matter and has provided watch lists.

[WARPIG]

Good point.. there is more than one reason for the fingerprint/photo measures. Brazil might be reacting in a tit for tat fashion but the benefits of it outweight the downfalls. If I want to fly on a airplane.. I get searched... if I want to travel abroad.. I get fingerprinted. Big deal.
Could "bad" elements get info on me? Yup. Of course the internet must be much easier than breaking into a government data base.
If Brazil wants to make the extra effort, spend the money, put their tourist trade in jeopordy.. cool. We have done it and most are ok with it.
If we can co-op with countries that have similar data then we can track all kinds of criminals. Our law enforcement just has to watch their manners so they don't go out of their way to get an international criminal caught and then exonerated on some damn "right to privacy" technicality. Same with the terrorist situations. If we can co-op data with a country like Brazil and we match info on some suspected terrorists.. we now have a fix on them and can track them. Maybe Brazil is fundamentally Islamic but the region is definately active with terrorist activity. Venezuela is largely Catholic but there are plenty of logistic and financial bases for Islamic terrorists there.

South America can fingerprint me all they want.. Heck I'll tell them what my hobbies, favorit colors and turn-ons are if the want. As long as they are paying attention.. I'm more than content. We may not catch anyone with the stricter border controls but it will make the terrorists and criminals have to work a lot harder.

[mustamato]

Classic book. Read it...

http://www.121agent.com/images/1984.jpg
http://www.thismodernworld.com/media/gra/1984-versionAfront.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/society_culture/art/images/orwell_screen_scene_1984.jpg
http://www.thesunmachine.net/images/store_quotes_orwell1.gif

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Don't see what the big deal is. I don't mind being fingerprinted if I'm going to visit some other country. They can ask me to jump through any hoop they want. If I don't like it, I won't go. Same goes for the US.

What the hell have these people got to hide that they're so concerned with people knowing who they really are? All it does is verify your identity - doesn't tell them anything about your past, your inclanations etc.

I've had my prints taken countless times - military, firearms license, civil service ID, security clearance etc. Nobody's thrown me into a dungeon yet.

[mustamato]

What the hell have these people got to hide that they're so concerned with people knowing who they really are? All it does is verify your identity - doesn't tell them anything about your past, your inclanations etc.

Well. It´s exactly what it does. It is not exactly the same in every country, but there is something similar everywhere. Here we a 10 digit personal identification number that is unique to every individual. The first 6 digits are your date of birth (day, month, year) and the last 4 are the numbers that uniquely identify you. The CPR number is used for registration and personal identification. There in the databases of various agencies is almost everything about you. When and where, you were born, how good you were in school, where you have been working, how much tax you have paid (or not paid), where you have served and so forth. Now they have your fingerprints. It´s just a matter of time before they have your DNA as well and God knows what more...

What I am afraid of is ending up in the illegal konzentrationslager at Guantanamo Bay or something like that. There is a swedish citizen sitting there now. I feel quite confident in that the swedish authorities has handed over everything they know about his past (and that is a lot) to US authorities. He is doomed, despite that he didn´t fire one round against US troops or civilians.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

What the hell have these people got to hide that they're so concerned with people knowing who they really are? All it does is verify your identity - doesn't tell them anything about your past, your inclanations etc.

Well. It´s exactly what it does. It is not exactly the same in every country, but there is something similar everywhere. Here we a 10 digit personal identification number that is unique to every individual. The first 6 digits are your date of birth (day, month, year) and the last 4 are the numbers that uniquely identify you. The CPR number is used for registration and personal identification. There in the databases of various agencies is almost everything about you. When and where, you were born, how good you were in school, where you have been working, how much tax you have paid (or not paid), where you have served and so forth. Now they have your fingerprints. It´s just a matter of time before they have your DNA as well and God knows what more...

How do my fingerprints tell you about how I am? They don't. They tell you who I am. Other information can fill in the blanks, if it's collected. All fingerprints do is verify that you are who you say you are. Is it unreasonable to verify that people are who they say they are?

[mustamato]

How do my fingerprints tell you about how I am? They don't. They tell you who I am. Other information can fill in the blanks, if it's collected. All fingerprints do is verify that you are who you say you are. Is it unreasonable to verify that people are who they say they are?

Hm, we are not talking about showing a ID-card to the local guy at Rent-A-Car now. We are talking about that the fingerprint is connected to your CPR-number (or whatever you call it there), that is connected to the databases that contains almost everything about you. Government databases (FBI and soforth) that is that has access to everything that has been recorded about you. School, dental records, medical records and whatever. The guy at Rent-A-Car will only be able to check your identity, but it is not he who is the main threat here either.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

How do my fingerprints tell you about how I am? They don't. They tell you who I am. Other information can fill in the blanks, if it's collected. All fingerprints do is verify that you are who you say you are. Is it unreasonable to verify that people are who they say they are?

Hm, we are not talking about showing a ID-card to the local guy at Rent-A-Car now. We are talking about that the fingerprint is connected to your CPR-number (or whatever you call it there), that is connected to the databases that contains almost everything about you. Government databases (FBI and soforth) that is that has access to everything that has been recorded about you. School, dental records, medical records and whatever. The guy at Rent-A-Car will only be able to check your identity, but it is not he who is the main threat here either.

Point taken but - the other information about you is already known, is already recorded. You show up at the airport saying your Joe Blow. Now they already know Joe Blows number, and all his info. They can already access it. All the finger prints do is verify that you are in fact Joe Blow. It changes nothing about what they already know about you.

For me this is less than nothing. The gov't already has my prints, and everything else about me on file. So being fingerprinted again at the airport doesn't give anybody any new information.

For somebody who's never been fingerprinted, I can see how this may seem to be a bit much. But as you say, people are already "on file" in many other ways. Adding the fingerprint to the mix only verifies that you are you. Nothing more. Nothing further is known about a person simply by taking fingerprints.

The airport check is conducted by agents of the government - so no private entity is getting your prints (they can snatch those off a discarded coffee cup at the airport if they want!). A court order or a signed release by the individal is also needed to access these records from within the gov't. as well.

[He219]

mustamato, are you wearing your Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie (http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html)?

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/afdbsmiley.gif

There is nothing on your PC that can't be seen by NSA or Chicom eavesdroppers - and many others as a matter of fact. It's how that information is used that differentiates the United States from others.

[Beowulf]

There is nothing on your PC that can't be seen by NSA or Chicom eavesdroppers - and many others as a matter of fact. It's how that information is used that differentiates the United States from others.

Really?!!??...[shifty eyes]...deleting frantically

[Seiyuuki]

It is understanderable for the Brazilian to adopt the finger printing policy for various security concerns. Though if they are adopting this policy just to be spiteful toward the American's policy, then that is just...wrong. Though I was not clear when reading the article, the Americans are finger printing citizens of numerous countries, not just Brazilians' citizens, yet Brazil seem to be just targeting U.S. citizens.


"I consider the act absolutely brutal, threatening human rights, violating human dignity, xenophobic and worthy of the worst horrors committed by the Nazis."

They criticized the American's finger printing as inhuman and on par with Nazis' atrocities...yet, in response, they are doing the same thing.

[mustamato]

There is nothing on your PC that can't be seen by NSA or Chicom eavesdroppers - and many others as a matter of fact. It's how that information is used that differentiates the United States from others.

No ****? Guess why I don´t have my Al-Qaida documents on my computer and don´t let Usama (that is living in my basement) use my ICQ. Not that I really understand what this has to do with fingerprints, but yeah, that´s the way it is. Usama is sending his best regards.

[He219]

Exactly! What's 'Orwellian' with fingerprints?


http://zapatopi.net/afdb/afdbsmiley.gif

[WARPIG]

If someone wants to access the FBI and all the Federal databases for all the travelers who go to Brazil.. I pity them.
Even worse, anyone who thinks any country is going to allocate manpower to screen all the info for all the Americans that show up in the country is smoking the pipe. Who the hell wants to spend the time, money and manpower to find out what some accountant scored on his high school SAT?
Fingerprinting is a way to create a record that may not exist yet. Fingerprints are the way Interpol tracks criminals.
Fingerprints are how we trail criminals and terrorists the we have caught. This way we can map their network.
Want to escape big brother? Go live in the woods, don't travel, and stay away from people! Your choice to live in this society is what identity monitoring is all about.

[Royal]

Oldrecon- KGB was a special group of individuals financed by a massive supercountry, with billions of dolars poured into infiltration and espiounauge, Al quaida is a while large and high funded terrorist group, a relativly poor group at infiltration in the sense of integraiting into a major high security, heavy background checked group, think about it, You proboly would have a large bunch of trouble getting a high ranked goverment job for the CIA or DHS if your a imagrent from major middle eastern/extreemest/ countries, much less even a immagrant, If you were born in the us I am sure they would have had to make some flight to the middle east over the course of their working with the terrorists to train ext, thus that too can be tracked, So connecting the kgb and al-quadia together is not a good argument.

The western militaries (and intelligence agenices) have been agressively recruiting people with islamic backgrounds since before 9/11, both for their linguistic and cultural knowledge, and to prepare as penetration agents.

Any time there is an icnrease in activity like this, standards will drop. There have already been several examples of personell who have served at Gitmo being arrested - those are only the examples that have been publicised.

If you think that Al Qaida are not trying to penetrate western militaries and intelligence organisations then you are very, very naive...

[Andrekid]

Is the samething that americans do with brazilian citizens in USA. This is a diplomatic reciprocited. Why Brasilian citizens must pass to this in USA???

[WARPIG]

Is the samething that americans do with brazilian citizens in USA. This is a diplomatic reciprocited. Why Brasilian citizens must pass to this in USA???
To monitor criminal and terrorist traffic operating in or through Central America. Because of the ties between the drug trade in Columbia and terrorists finance and logistics operations... the US is paying more attention to the travel to and from Central America. Venezuela and Brazil are highly influence by such activity.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Royal has good point, it is an absolute given that Al Q and other anti western organizations will try to infiltrate US government agencies or companies that are closely associated with government agencies. Although many here think it impossible that American and Allied intelligence agencies can be compromised by foreign terror groups its probably only a matter of time before we see sophisticated intrusion attempts by these groups. When you look at the damage done by Aldrich Ames a 31 year CIA veteran who passed on secret's for $1.8 million and Jonathan Pollard who passed US Navy technical intelligence to Israel for little more than the belief that he was doing the right thing, it does not take a lot of imagination to guess the damage one terror agent in the right place can do.

[mustamato]

Although many here think it impossible that American and Allied intelligence agencies can be compromised by foreign terror groups its probably only a matter of time before we see sophisticated intrusion attempts by these groups.

That´s probably because they think of Al-Qaida like this

http://images.usatoday.com/news/gallery/terr1101/taliban.jpg

... instead of...

http://www.citeassociates.co.uk/employers/images/businessman%20writing%202.gif

Just think of Atta that flew in to WTC, he studied at a University (obviously not stupid) and worked hard (obviously devoted for the cause), there are still many Attas out there, and they don´t all have beards and "TALIBAN" written on their forehead. They don´t necessarily haft have names like "Mohammed" either. Especially not now when they are so targeted. It don´t take much to shave of your beard, get a false ID-card and get a more "western look" (all for the cause)...

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

http://www.danzigercartoons.com/img/2001/dancart1102.jpg

[Loco]

Is the samething that americans do with brazilian citizens in USA. This is a diplomatic reciprocited. Why Brasilian citizens must pass to this in USA???
To monitor criminal and terrorist traffic operating in or through Central America. Because of the ties between the drug trade in Columbia and terrorists finance and logistics operations... the US is paying more attention to the travel to and from Central America. Venezuela and Brazil are highly influence by such activity.
Excuse me, but Brazil is far away from Central America. Drug trade is not a matter of brasilians, but of colombians and Usamericans too. Don´t forget, please, that USA sniffs more cocain that all the UE with less of 20% of population, may be the most efficient fight agaisnt drug trade should be done in USA schools and streets. I don´t pretend here begining a discussion about responsabilities of each country, but I feel too many times countries at the south of Rio Grande are blamed by USA undeservedly, and a single country is confused with a whole subcontinent. And you know, coke leaves were always chewed by indians and still today, and it isn´t a bad thing, only when industiralized countries developed synthesized drugs problems began. That´s said, in europe of course there´s a lot of people fond of hash, cocaine, alcohol, heroin and pills of any kind.
In the case of Al Qaida, first of all I don´t think is a powerful big pyramidal
terrorist organization, nor I think it exists such an islamic terrorists organization, with a global presence like the "Spectra organization" of J.Bond´s movies. I think it looks in some way like the terrorism of the "lead years", the 60-70´s, in Europe and America continent. In those years, the excuse was the marxism, and 150-100 years ago the excuse was the anarchism ideology, used by some unsatisfied groups in every country, "to change the society", because that people couldn´t suffer what they called the "contradictions of the system", specially in the rich countries, and many of those terrorists grew up in middle/high class families and had good education. I consider there are a lot of muslims terrorists group that act more because of national motivations than religious ones. The religion, islam in this case, is only an excuse the same that the parents of this muslims terrorists could joined a marxist revolutionary terrorist group in 1970, for fighting agaisnt what they see as an attack to the independence of their countries. This ultra islmics groups in every muslim country are a good environment for recruiting future terrorists for fighting against their enemy, "the west", all of us. I can detect some similarities between european terrorists of the 70´s and those muslims of now. Even the ones of the 70´s killed because they wanted a better humanity(their words, not mine), their revolutionary rhetoric was always pointing to USA and the "Evil Empire"(ever listened this words??), and what they thought was a national politics class selling their countries to the global capitalims and USA power, they saw themselves as rebels fighting against colonization. Since the Berlin Wall fell down, the marxist solution is not valid neither as a method nor as an excuse, and in Europe those all terrorist are today or killed or integrated, or even ruling the countries, because they are more mature. Well, in Arabs countries many sons of the emerging middle arabs class are being educated between 2 worlds. They suffer more contradictions than western youth of 30 years ago. Note that arab women students of the 70s didn´t wear veil, and even used jeans and T-shir defying very conservative societies. Just now the defy is wearing veils in societys they see too much westernized, they aren´t satisfied as arabs youngs of their countries, but they don´t like western countries and they feel westerns solutions weren´t good for them, in fact they feel humiliated and opressed by the west. Are those people who can have a good education who can´t support corrupted governments(in the best of cases) because they feel are sold to the west. At last, they are arabs who feel colonizated, they´re nationalist, the islam is the ideology more useful for them now.
Then, ultra islamics groups can work in the best of cases as a network, but there isn´t the "Islamic Spectra". I think we´ll never behead an organization like this. What we can make is fighting every organzation one by one and and to suppress providing that it is possible the conditions that make possible the birth of terrorist groups. At the end, what we can do is the policial work, this is the way of fighting terrorists, you can´t kill mosquitos with cannons balls. It´s more a fight of inteligence than of soldiers. And we, the westerners, I think we can´t be anymore contradictories with arab world. You can´t make a coup d´etat in a democratic state, sample Iran, a pretend being innocent if in 20 years this country feels humilliated and answer in a way you never calculated, or supporting dictators and corrupted governments simply because is good for oil companies, and etc. I hope in 20 years there will be some arabs democracies, and if it´s a realitiy, sure there will be some respectable arabs politics who were when youngs ultra islamics, or even more, members of terrorists groups. What all people around the world want is living with a discret wealth: a job, enough salary, school and university for sons, medicines, and not feeling ashamed about the country in which you were born, that´s all. Well, that´s my humble opinion, ready to listen others opinions.

[WARPIG]

Sorry, I meant South America. Classic mistake. I knew where and what I was talking about.. I just mis-said it.
I have no idea what part of my post gave you such a rash.. but, your 400 word run-on sentence has little to do with why Brazilians are being fingerprinted when traveling to the US.
Columbia is a heavy exporter of the drug trade to the US. Brazil is a very large South American country that borders Columbia.
Terrorists do operate in the region. Admin, intel, and logistical ops mostly but more reports of Arabic terrorist training going on in the borderlands of Columbia, Venezuela, and Brazil.
Some even aid in the typical kidnapping raids that drug lords use to extort money out of Politicians and wealthy ranchers.
Brazil is not being blamed.
Can you tell the difference between a Columbian, traveling through Brazil or Venezuela? I can.. barely. Brazilians have a highly Portugese influenced language. More European sounding than their neighbors in Venezuela and Columbia.

[Loco]

Sorry, I meant South America. Classic mistake. I knew where and what I was talking about.. I just mis-said it.
I have no idea what part of my post gave you such a rash.. but, your 400 word run-on sentence has little to do with why Brazilians are being fingerprinted when traveling to the US.
Columbia is a heavy exporter of the drug trade to the US. Brazil is a very large South American country that borders Columbia.
Terrorists do operate in the region. Admin, intel, and logistical ops mostly but more reports of Arabic terrorist training going on in the borderlands of Columbia, Venezuela, and Brazil.
Some even aid in the typical kidnapping raids that drug lords use to extort money out of Politicians and wealthy ranchers.
Brazil is not being blamed.
Can you tell the difference between a Columbian, traveling through Brazil or Venezuela? I can.. barely. Brazilians have a highly Portugese influenced language. More European sounding than their neighbors in Venezuela and Columbia.
Excuse me by the long post, only the first paragraph has relation with something you wrote, and of course I hadn´t intention of attaking or disturbing you. :roll:
The rest of my post is related with the other members opinions written in the 3 page. BTW, Brazilins don´t have a highly influenced portuguese language, they talk portuguese with tropical rythm, colombians and venezuelan speak spanish. And about the colombian-brazilian border, it´s not place for a fluid trade, it´s all the amazonic jungle with a strong presence of brasilian army. Btw, I never listened before of arabs terrorists in this area. "It´s said", I don´t know if tru, that in the triple border of Paraguay-Argentina and Brazil there can be some muslims terrorists in the zone, but for being hidden and resting, not for training. Who knows.

[zenjr]

Hahaha.

Funny stuff.

All that is being done is due to the reprocity law. All that you make my vistors do I'll do to your visitors. Thats purely just. And fingerprinting has some advantages.
Someone spoke of associating the finrgerprint with all your data. School you studied, etc. That will be possible only if your government would cede this information. Do you think thats possible for you government to cede those information to a foreign country? Of course not. So why worry?

[armored_diplomacy]

Should we talk about the amount of Muslim extremists that are in Brazil using it for a base of operations? Al-Qaeda is using Brazil (and a large portion of South America in general) as a conduit to move people into the US to conduct operations. Why...because it's easier to obtain false travel documents and bribe officials in those countries because of the poor economy.

"If you're not with us, then you're against us"
Sit down, shut up and stay out of the way.




Yeah it's really smart for Americans to allow themselves to be fingerprinted and their pictures and travel history within a certain country to be documented by another country. And of course no one, especially terrorist organizations with plenty of money could never bribe anyone for access to that info. It's not like Americans are targets of international terrorism and have anything to fear.





tourist = normal people
I would say the 3000+ people at work at the World Trade Center would be considered normal people, yet they were attacked.
Sept. 11 will do that to you.

:roll:

I´m gonna have to use this for the first time:

107839

Sir (I´ll assume you´re over 18)

Your post is ridiculous, senseless, and agressive. As a matter of fact, as a citizen from a south amercian country I feel offended by all the garbage that you have spread over here and I think I should even report your posts. Instead, I´ll reply them.

FIRST: Sovereign countries have all the right to stablish whathever migration/border control regulations they want. And those rules should be reciprocal. If you don´t like it, don´t travel here. That simple.

SECOND: Al-qaeda is using Brazil and a "large portion of SA"?. really? where? why isn´t CIA/FBI/INTERPOL calling you right now to know where they are? where are those "large portions" located? do you know how big SA is? ... at this point: do you know where SA is ?.
If you have any proof, you shouln´t be here but running to Langley instead. And if your soruce is, let´s say, FOX news or some crazy website, you´ve got a big problem. (don´t you dare to quote a CIA source or imilar: they are the same guys who found WMD in iraq; remember that?. or did they moved them to Brazil?)
This is nothing else but a classic deploy of arrogance, succesfuly combined with inexcusable ignorance. :bash:

THIRD: Cut that paranoic speech. Do you really think americans, all of them, from students to fat grandpas are so important that a terrorist group will pay for their fly records? And in the opposite way: why should the REST OF THE WORLD allow the US to keep their personal data when traveling and having to spend little or no time in the US? In my city we see american/european/asian tourists every day and you know what? nobody gives a **** about them ! they are just tourists ! the average joe on vacations !

FOURTH: WTF has the 9/11 to do with this. Were victims of that attack tourists? did that happen in Brazil? was a deficient SA gov. which failed in a gross way to protect it´s people? no, it was all in the US. And some of the terrorists had US visa and were trained IN THE US.

FIFTH: don´t you ever quote that moronic former president of yours, unless you want to make yourself look like a world fool. rofl

You, sir, are a dream for any of those US haters. You impersonate all the bad stereotypes americans are associated normaly. In the few time I´ve being here I could met people from your country that, thanks God, proved me that people who think like you are "the few", but nothing to be proud.

Here´s something at the level of you convictions:

107851


:hug:My apologies to the other members and the adm. if I broke any rule; it´s just I can´t tolerate that kind of senseless.

[Kenza]

SIXTH: You're posting in a 6 year old thread...

[LineDoggie]

..........................................................

[armored_diplomacy]

SIXTH: You're posting in a 6 year old thread...

just realized :lol:

[tea drinker]

just realized :lol:

Say it louder dude! They can't hear you in 2004...

[eskachig]

There is nothing on your PC that can't be seen by NSA or Chicom eavesdroppers - and many others as a matter of fact. It's how that information is used that differentiates the United States from others.
a) No, the NSA can't see what is inside my computer unless they upload a virus to my computer - there are no magical backdoors for this, and you're free to run your own packet sniffer to verify what kind of info is going out of your computer. NSA can intercept electronic communication however.
b) I don't trust the United States with my personal info any more than I trust China.

[California Joe]

just realized :lol:

Maybe the date helps you understand the attitude of the Marine combat veteran you were addressing.