PDA

View Full Version : Snipers Offer U.S. a Precision Weapon



budanski
01-02-2004, 12:55 AM
In Iraq's Murky Battle, Snipers Offer U.S. a Precision Weapon

NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/02/international/middleeast/02SNIP.html?pagewanted=all&position=)

By ERIC SCHMITT

Published: January 2, 2004

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/01/02/international/sniper.184.jpg
Sgt. Randy Davis, 25, left, and Specialist Chris Wilson, 24, are a sniper team at a forward operating base near Samarra, Iraq. The Army is increasingly relying on snipers to protect patrols and head off guerrilla attacks.

SAMARRA, Iraq, Dec. 28 — The intimate horror of the guerrilla war here in Iraq seems most vivid when seen through the sights of a sniper's rifle.

In an age of satellite-guided bombs dropped at featureless targets from 30,000 feet, Army snipers can see the expression on a man's face when the bullet hits.

"I shot one guy in the head, and his head exploded," said Sgt. Randy Davis, one of about 40 snipers in the Army's new 3,600-soldier Stryker Brigade, from Fort Lewis, Wash. "Usually, though, you just see a dust cloud pop up off their clothes, and see a little blood splatter come out the front."

Working in teams of two or three, Army snipers here in Iraq cloak themselves in the shadows of empty city buildings or burrow into desert sands with camouflage suits, waiting to fell guerrilla gunmen and their leaders with a single shot from as far as half a mile away.

As the counterinsurgency grinds into its ninth month, the Army is increasingly relying on snipers to protect infantry patrols sweeping through urban streets and alleyways, and to kill guerrilla leaders and disrupt their attacks.

"Properly employed, we can break the enemy's back," said Sergeant Davis, 25, who is from Murfreesboro, Tenn. "Our main targets are their main command and control elements and other high-value targets."

Soldiering is a violent business, and emotions in combat run high. But commanders say snipers are a different breed of warrior — quiet, unflappable marksmen who bring a dispassionate intensity to their deadly task.

"The good ones have to be calm, methodical and disciplined," said Lt. Col. Karl Reed, who commands the Stryker Brigade's Fifth Battalion, 20th Infantry, Sergeant Davis's parent unit.

In the month since he arrived here on his first combat tour, Sergeant Davis already has eight confirmed kills — including seven in a single day — and two "probables."

He and his partner, Specialist Chris Wilson, who has one confirmed kill, do not brag about their feats. Their words reflect a certain icy professionalism instilled in men who say they take no pleasure in killing, and try not to see their Iraqi foes as men with families and children.

"You don't think about it," said Specialist Wilson, 24, of Muncie, Ind., speaking at an austere base camp near here after a late-afternoon mission. "You just think about the lives of the guys to your left and right."

Sergeant Davis nodded in agreement: "As soon as they picked up a weapon and tried to engage U.S. soldiers, they forfeited all their rights to life, is how I look at it."

All soldiers are trained to destroy an opponent, but snipers have honed the art of killing to a fine edge. At a five-week training course at Fort Benning, Ga., they learn to stalk their prey, conceal their own movements, spot telltale signs of an enemy shooter and take down a target with a lone shot.

To qualify for the school, a soldier must already be an expert marksman, pass a physical examination and undergo a psychological screening ("To make sure they're not training a nut," Sergeant Davis said.) The rigorous course fails more than half of its students.

The demand for snipers is great enough that the Army has sent a team of trainers to Iraq to keep churning out new ones for the war effort here and in other hot spots.

As the Army faces more conflicts in which terrorists use the tight confines of city blocks and rooftops to stage hit-and-run strikes, the sniper school has placed increasing emphasis on urban tactics. That makes sense in places like this city of 250,000 people, a hotbed of Saddam Hussein supporters 65 miles northwest of Baghdad.

The training paid off on Dec. 18. Dusk was setting in here, and Sergeant Davis was wrapping up a counter-sniper mission when he spotted an armed Iraqi on a rooftop about 300 yards away. He said he knew the gunman was a sniper by the way he sneaked along the roofline to track a squad below from Sergeant Davis's Company B.

"The guy made a mistake when he silhouetted himself against the rooftop," said Sergeant Davis, who has 20/10 vision. "He was trying to look over to see where the guys were in the courtyard."

As the gunman rose from the shadows to fire, Sergeant Davis said he saw his head and then the distinctive shape of a Dragonov SVD Russian-made sniper rifle. The sergeant drew a bead on the shooter with his weapon of choice, an M-14 rifle equipped with a special optic sight that has crosshairs and a red aiming dot.

"I went ahead and engaged him and shot him one time to the chest," he said, matter of factly. "I watched him kick back, his rifle flew back, and I saw a little blood come out of his chest. It was a good hit."

Three days earlier, Company B walked into an ambush in downtown Samarra in which gunmen on motorcycles used children leaving school as cover to attack the patrol. Sergeant Davis, armed this time with an M-4 rifle, shot 7 of the 11 attackers that American commanders say died in the 45-minute skirmish.

"We don't have civilian casualties," the sergeant said of how he avoided the schoolchildren. "Everything you hit, you know exactly what it is. You know where every round is going."

In city or desert, Army snipers spend hours planning and setting up their positions, often under cover of darkness. "We don't have the capability to survive a sustained firefight," the sergeant said. "We use surprise and stealth to accomplish missions."

Army snipers generally choose from four different weapons, depending on the mission. The standard M-24 sniper rifle is simple in design. It has an adjustable Kevlar stock, a thick stainless steel barrel, a mounted telescopic, day/night scope and is bolt action, rather than semiautomatic, like other sniper rifles. It sets up on a bipod and fires 7.62-millimeter ammunition, hitting targets up to 1,000 yards away.

In the desert, snipers wrap plastic bags or condoms over the gun muzzle to keep the sand out. They carry their weapons in padded green canvas bags. "We baby the hell out of them," Sergeant Davis said.

Most snipers are familiar with firearms even before joining the armed forces. Sergeant Davis and Specialist Wilson grew up on farms, and both owned their first rifles before they were 10. They fondly remember hunting deer as youngsters.

Both men are married and have children, and say they do not talk much about their work outside their tight-knit clan. "We try to get away from stereotypes that you're a psychotic gun nut running around, like the guy in D.C., or like in the movies, a cool-guy assassin," Sergeant Davis said.

There are not many targets these men dread, but in the shifting battlefield of Iraq, where seemingly everyone is armed, one candidate emerges. Would they ever shoot a child who aimed at them?

"I couldn't imagine that," said Specialist Wilson, a father of five.

But Sergeant Davis had a different view: "I'd shoot him, otherwise he'd shoot me. But I wouldn't feel good about it."

Seraphim
01-02-2004, 01:18 AM
Whoa, thats badass...

Clay
01-02-2004, 01:21 AM
"I shot one guy in the head, and his head exploded," said Sgt. Randy Davis, one of about 40 snipers in the Army's new 3,600-soldier Stryker Brigade, from Fort Lewis, Wash. "Usually, though, you just see a dust cloud pop up off their clothes, and see a little blood splatter come out the front."

I own allot of sniper books and looking through that scope and putting your cross hair over some one's head. Knowing your playing god take a special breed of solider.
But then again… It’s too easy to pull the trigger.

"The guy made a mistake when he silhouetted himself against the rooftop," said Sergeant Davis, who has 20/10 vision.
Don't you need 20/20....

jlanni
01-02-2004, 01:21 AM
hooah... i thought about trying to be a sniper at one time but i got no out side knowlege of firearms other then shootin my friends pelet gun.. haha then i got interested in whirly birds

NcDeuce
01-02-2004, 01:27 AM
Interesting article, SF & Ranger team snipers are some bad mofos.

Shake n Bake
01-02-2004, 02:25 AM
"The guy made a mistake when he silhouetted himself against the rooftop," said Sergeant Davis, who has 20/10 vision.



Don't you need 20/20....


that's even better then 20/20

maw
01-02-2004, 02:57 AM
TF160SOAR wrote:
"Interesting article, SF & Ranger team snipers are some bad mofos."
i hear you, but marine snipers are the original long range bad mofos.

and of course, there's always these guys who might have an opinion on the matter:
http://www.badgerord.com/gal/field/4.jpg

not trying to be gory but regarding the head thing, shortly after the beirut tragedy, a ranger buddy came back and told me about an experience he'd had. apparently, hizbollah snipers (is there such a thing?) liked to take positions in some high rises and shoot down on either the marine compound or the airport (i forget, bear with me, it's been a while). the marines organized a couple of sniper teams to respond, my buddy was asked if wanted to tag along. he went. in one case he told me he had the opportunity to observe a head shot through a spotting scope. he said the only thing you could see after the impact was a cloud of red mist.

Marxist203
01-02-2004, 03:02 AM
Whoa, thats badass...

And how!

GLax
01-02-2004, 03:03 AM
great article, my recruiter is a Sniper as well. very reluctant to talk about their job i've learned...

Tane Angle
01-02-2004, 01:55 PM
The divisions are now employing DMs/snipers extensively. I hear they do pretty well.

About Beirut, I was there that same time. I'd been there before, and was sent back after the Barracks attack. Those Marine snipers were excellent marksmen; I had the privilege of working with them extensively there. Very professional, calm, focused men. I saw a lot through my spotting scope, the Marines did what they felt necessary, but were very cautious in the taking of human lives. No rambos.

The hostiles knew exactly how to use the ROEs against the Marines. They would use civilians as shields and shoot from crowds, or would find good shooting locations in buildings or outside. They knew how to mess with heads as well as actually shoot. The airport wasn't the most defendable place, but the Marines did a great job there. My thoughts and prayers still go out to their fallen comrades. Don't forget that many French paras died that day as well.

Had the ROEs been different, the bombings probably never would have happened. The Marines had their hands tied; they were put out there defenseless, sitting ducks, and they couldn't do a thing to help themselves. A tragedy.

Glax, good thinking on not pushing it. It's not something to brag about. It never leaves a fair number of folks.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

papasmerf
01-02-2004, 03:33 PM
Thumbs up to the Marines.

Minjin
01-02-2004, 04:55 PM
Great article, thanks for posting.

Falco
01-02-2004, 05:03 PM
Great article, I wonder how the snipers and DMs feel about all this.

stuntman
01-02-2004, 07:22 PM
Whoa, thats badass...

And how!
marxist203 did you fail to read the article? I mean they are modest but we can call them bad ass!
I bet if they had some cadpat u would be like "there bad ass ehh!"
Sniper alley "Even the devil stays clear!"

Seraphim
01-02-2004, 07:30 PM
Whoa, thats badass...

And how!
marxist203 did you fail to read the article? I mean they are modest but we can call them bad ass!
I bet if they had some cadpat u would be like "there bad ass ehh!"
Sniper alley "Even the devil stays clear!"

LoL.....what you talking aboot eh?

usa320
01-02-2004, 08:54 PM
THese guys do a great job considering the stress they are put under.

In the end they save lives, both allied, enemy and civilians.

DPGLAW
01-02-2004, 09:57 PM
Thank god that there are people who do that job, they really are saving the lives of our troops in Iraq and im sure aside from that fact they are definitely a morale booster...USA, quick question....why would you give a s hit if they are saving the lives of the enemy??? I for one hope that they kill as many worthless Iraqi's as possible...I thought the idea of combat is to kill the enemy, not save him. We (the US) should be trying to kill as many as possible....statements like "saveing the enemy" are oxymorons and make me scratch my head and wonder about the people***(tree huggers :) *** who say things like that

Tane Angle
01-02-2004, 10:33 PM
I can tell you that it's no joy to take the enemies life. It never leaves some people. The coalition forces in Iraq want to ensure their own and the civilians' safety, but try to use the minimum, rather than the maximum, amount of force necessary. No offense though. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

ChuckThunder
01-02-2004, 10:40 PM
Thank god that there are people who do that job, they really are saving the lives of our troops in Iraq and im sure aside from that fact they are definitely a morale booster...USA, quick question....why would you give a s hit if they are saving the lives of the enemy??? I for one hope that they kill as many worthless Iraqi's as possible...I thought the idea of combat is to kill the enemy, not save him. We (the US) should be trying to kill as many as possible....statements like "saveing the enemy" are oxymorons and make me scratch my head and wonder about the people***(tree huggers :) *** who say things like that

You are so ignorant.

James
01-03-2004, 12:07 AM
Thank god that there are people who do that job, they really are saving the lives of our troops in Iraq and im sure aside from that fact they are definitely a morale booster...USA, quick question....why would you give a s hit if they are saving the lives of the enemy??? I for one hope that they kill as many worthless Iraqi's as possible...I thought the idea of combat is to kill the enemy, not save him. We (the US) should be trying to kill as many as possible....statements like "saveing the enemy" are oxymorons and make me scratch my head and wonder about the people***(tree huggers :) *** who say things like that

Some might think me a tree hugger, but that is not the case...

We shouldn't "kill as many worthless Iraqis as possible". We should engage those Iraqis who choose to ambush our men and women, as well as their fellow Iraqis who are struggling every day to put their country back together. The Iraqis aren't our enemy. They never were. Hussein's regime was, and those individuals who can't let go of the past still are.

usa320
01-03-2004, 01:31 AM
Because using snipers with deadly precision will act as a great deterrent, and could force some iraqis to throw their guns down and throw their hands up.

The more we capture alive, the more we learn about the workings of the insurgency.

If it was a decision to kill him or he gets away, i say kill him, but if you have the chance to take him alive, you do it.

DPGLAW
01-03-2004, 07:38 AM
USA....I must say that your last post is definitely a valid idea, I honestly did not take into account the intel. factor, my comment was based more on what I think as opposed to logic, but your last point is definitely valid and Im sure that intel. from captured sources has led to some breakthroughs and saved lives....thanks...

Chuck Thunder, I am the farthest thing from ignorant and you can go f*** yourself you moron.....if "you are ignorant" is the best you can come up with having hours, upon hours to formulate a response, than I have to say that you are the ignorant one

Haiw
01-03-2004, 03:06 PM
DPGLAW I hate to break it to you, but in about 1 out of 3 of your posts you need to say everyone is a fool, while you yourself are about the biggest producent of ignorance in the threads you post in... :roll:

DPGLAW
01-03-2004, 03:21 PM
Haiw....that is not true....the only time I have made a comment about another user is when I am responding to a comment made to or about me, such as an asshole like you. Apparently you did not read the post before you in which I said that USA made a good point that I had not thought of and that I was perhaps incorrect. The reason I feel it necessary sometimes to be a **** is because people on here can't let someone post an opinion without calling them a name or something...if that is done to be that yes, of course I will be rude. If people are civilized and allow others to express their opinions than I will never say anything which is rude

usa320
01-03-2004, 09:00 PM
The Term Ignoramus is slung around all to often these days...

papasmerf
01-03-2004, 09:29 PM
TF160SOAR wrote:
"Interesting article, SF & Ranger team snipers are some bad mofos."
i hear you, but marine snipers are the original long range bad mofos.

and of course, there's always these guys who might have an opinion on the matter:
http://www.badgerord.com/gal/field/4.jpg

not trying to be gory but regarding the head thing, shortly after the beirut tragedy, a ranger buddy came back and told me about an experience he'd had. apparently, hizbollah snipers (is there such a thing?) liked to take positions in some high rises and shoot down on either the marine compound or the airport (i forget, bear with me, it's been a while). the marines organized a couple of sniper teams to respond, my buddy was asked if wanted to tag along. he went. in one case he told me he had the opportunity to observe a head shot through a spotting scope. he said the only thing you could see after the impact was a cloud of red mist.

Marines are the original ones? What is that suppose to mean?

Tane Angle
01-04-2004, 12:53 AM
That's not really a dig at the Army, I don't think, so much as the truth. For years, the Army didn't have the same dedicated sniper capability as the Marine Corps. Even today, the Army doesn't really have the same capability, but it's changing that quickly. I'm not talking about SOF snipers, because that's something totally different, but the Army hasn't always had the same sniper capability intregral to infantry and armor units the way the USMC has. No offense to the Army, and remember, I was in the Army, but the Marines do a lot of things real smart. They are a smart, thinking branch. Forget the mindless Jarhead image, those folks know their stuff, and don't care much for fancy toys. They care about what works. Sure, the other branches do to, but the Marines do it to a whole nother level. Have a good one, just some thoughts...

Deuterium
01-04-2004, 01:03 AM
Head shots are for Fiction Novels and CT teams. Center-mass, Center-mass, Center-mass........

maw
01-04-2004, 01:33 PM
usmc scout sniper program is still peerless.

center of mass. we had a discussion here about how police snipers always talk about head shots. we've all seen the wacky cranial targets:

http://www.ninedogtargets.com/images/targettop.jpg

but when it's go time it's still center of mass. no doubt they don't trust their cold bore zero. even at the reduced distances involved in police sniping.

newyorker0852
01-04-2004, 02:10 PM
Kinda interestin those two snipers are the same ones in the M14 + holoscope thread on here a couple of days back

papasmerf
01-04-2004, 03:01 PM
That's not really a dig at the Army, I don't think, so much as the truth. For years, the Army didn't have the same dedicated sniper capability as the Marine Corps. Even today, the Army doesn't really have the same capability, but it's changing that quickly. I'm not talking about SOF snipers, because that's something totally different, but the Army hasn't always had the same sniper capability intregral to infantry and armor units the way the USMC has. No offense to the Army, and remember, I was in the Army, but the Marines do a lot of things real smart. They are a smart, thinking branch. Forget the mindless Jarhead image, those folks know their stuff, and don't care much for fancy toys. They care about what works. Sure, the other branches do to, but the Marines do it to a whole nother level. Have a good one, just some thoughts...

Then why doesn't the Army do what Marines do? After all, we're all on the same team. And Tane, could please explain the capabilities Marines have that Army doesn't have? I'm very interested. Thank you.

Deuterium
01-04-2004, 03:10 PM
Here is my take on it. I haven't a clue which school is better. Talk to any SOTIC instructor and they will tell you the Marine course doesn't hold a candle, not in the same league. Talk to any Marine or Army Benning instructor and they have another opinion. I'm biased. I will tell you that it’s not the school, ANY of them. Its the individual and what that person does after the school. The schools are anywhere from a couple of weeks to a couple of months. You can be a sniper for YEARS. I'll take the sniper who has a big dope book and a couple of years on the gun over a graduate of any of the courses.

Tane Angle
01-04-2004, 03:42 PM
Deut makes some real good points there. And both branches do what it needs. The fact is that the average infantry unit doesn't have much need for people who can make shots at 1/2 mile or more. Designated marksmen/more MOUT-oriented shooters are very necessary though. The Marines have long prided themselves on having shooters that could shoot extreme distances. Delta and SF really worked on their skills long before the Army really got into sniping, but that was decades ago. Today there's less disparity between branches. What Deut said really hits the nail on the head; it's very difficult to say which one is best. They're all great, especially at their individual fortes. It's like the "who's the best SOF unit" discussions, there isn't really an answer. Have a good one, just some thoughts...

budanski
01-04-2004, 03:55 PM
I once hit a pal's head out 50 yards with a slingshot...

papasmerf
01-04-2004, 05:27 PM
I agree, I wouldn't take Marine sniper with 2 years experience over an Army sniper with 5 years experience just because he's a Marine. But anyway, do you guys know if Army and Marine snipers deploy the same tactics or not?

ST4
01-04-2004, 05:35 PM
TF160SOAR wrote:
"Interesting article, SF & Ranger team snipers are some bad mofos."
i hear you, but marine snipers are the original long range bad mofos.

and of course, there's always these guys who might have an opinion on the matter:
http://www.badgerord.com/gal/field/4.jpg

not trying to be gory but regarding the head thing, shortly after the beirut tragedy, a ranger buddy came back and told me about an experience he'd had. apparently, hizbollah snipers (is there such a thing?) liked to take positions in some high rises and shoot down on either the marine compound or the airport (i forget, bear with me, it's been a while). the marines organized a couple of sniper teams to respond, my buddy was asked if wanted to tag along. he went. in one case he told me he had the opportunity to observe a head shot through a spotting scope. he said the only thing you could see after the impact was a cloud of red mist.

They were there in Somalia and now they are ready to kick ass in Iraq! :D