The Soviet troops who stayed to live in Afghanistan

[Baltic]

By Tom Coghlan in Baghlan

Sixteen years after the last Red Army tank left Afghanistan, three ghosts of the Soviet Union's 10-year occupation are still hiding among the country's northern hills.

They live as locals but the men are pale-skinned and when they are together they speak Russian.

Until 1981 Nasratullah was a Red Army officer called Nikolai. Rahmatullah and Aminullah were conscripts. They are the last survivors from five Soviet soldiers who were captured or deserted, converted to Islam and fought for the mujahideen against their former comrades.

The invasion of Afghanistan, Russia's Vietnam, saw 23,000 of its soldiers killed between 1979 and 1989. An estimated 1.3million Afghans, mainly civilians, died.

Today Nasratullah, 45, earns £45 a month as a policeman in Baghlan province. A softly spoken, melancholic chain smoker, he remains fearful of retribution for his defection. Nasratullah said he was born Nikolai, in 1960, in the Ukrainian city of Kharkov.

He will not reveal his last name. His father Anatoly was also a soldier and Nikolai attended a military academy.

After volunteering to serve in Afghanistan, Nasratullah said he served for three months before deserting in 1981 after witnessing a massacre of more than 70 civilians at the village of Kaligai.

"We swore in the Russian army on the sword and the Bible to help society. It was against the law what was done," he said.

He only decided to convert a year after his capture, he added. "I didn't choose to convert," he said. "The religion chose me."

Nasratullah then spent eight years in the front line. His mujahideen comrades said he and the other Russians were decent fighters and particularly useful for listening to Russian radio traffic.

"If you are in the front line then you must fight and you must kill," is all he will say about fighting against his countrymen.

In July 1988 the Russian government offered an amnesty to Russian prisoners of war in Afghanistan.

None of the converts took up the offer although they have all managed to visit Russia since the war, using visas acquired in Pakistan.

When he visited Ukraine in 1996, Nasratullah met some former Red Army comrades and said he was relieved when they did not blame him for his conversion or for joining the mujahideen.

Under the Taliban government, the three Russians came to the attention of the movement's leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar, who, impressed by their devout lives, gave them homes and businesses. All three have local wives and families.

But after the Taliban fell in 2001 the houses were reclaimed. None of the three is considered rich. Locally they are regarded as curiosities, admired for their piety.

More info in Russian language here:
http://newsru.com/world/20jun2005/partisans.html

[VISTREL]

"We swore in the Russian army on the sword and the Bible to help society. It was against the law what was done," he said.

Bible in USSR army ? ...sounds like tons of BS...scumbag tried to save his skin and deserted...

and where the **** they found 23,000 ? haha...evertime they write about war NEW number comes up...in that link you provided they said 15,000 and even mentioned which forces had the casulaties...western media is even more idiotic than communists...+ rofl rofl

[sergey31]

What a bunch of BS..... They killed their own countrymen(brothers), there's is no forgiveness for that.
I wonder how family members of fallen feel about these scumbags?
23,000? Yah a bit overestimated I would say.

[Dima-RussianArms]

Baltic, why do you post this bs if not to missinform or start a flame war?

The article is a typical example of western propaganda bs journalism.
"Sworn on the sword and bible" in the Soviet Army!!! :cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli:
Does the journalist written this article takes his readers for complete idiots, it seems so.

23000 killed - wow...
Ok, lets leave the official unclassified after disolvement of the USSR figure of 13339 but the link to the article from the Russian website that you gave us says 15000, then in the english version it becomes 23000!!!
How do you explain that?

Those 3 guys are cowars who traded their Motherland and lives of their comrades for their own asses. They are disgrace to Russian and Ukranian people, Afganis can keep them...


A softly spoken, melancholic chain smoker, he remains fearful of retribution for his defection.
No ****, I know several guys who would love to have a meeting with him and I'd love to be invited myself.

Scum...

[weissent]

Baltic, why do you post this bs if not to missinform or start a flame war?

The article is a typical example of western propaganda bs journalism.
"Sworn on the sword and bible" in the Soviet Army!!! :cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli:
Does the journalist written this article takes his readers for complete idiots, it seems so.

23000 killed - wow...
Ok, lets leave the official unclassified after disolvement of the USSR figure of 13339 but the link to the article from the Russian website that you gave us says 15000, then in the english version it becomes 23000!!!
How do you explain that?

Those 3 guys are cowars who traded their Motherland and lives of their comrades for their own asses. They are disgrace to Russian and Ukranian people, Afganis can keep them...


A softly spoken, melancholic chain smoker, he remains fearful of retribution for his defection.
No ****, I know several guys who would love to have a meeting with him and I'd love to be invited myself.

Scum...

First of all, I'm glad RomanS is gone. He was a great pic poster, but just wasn't able to adhere to the most simple rule of online life: respect. (cliché, yes, but true nonetheless)

Dima, you are more intelligent, so it pains me to see you build a personal bi-polar invironment as well. There is no such thing as good or evil. There are positions.
It wouldn't hurt this discussion if you'd step away from the usual Russian "They hate us!"- attitude to something a little less biased.

Keep your heart out of it, and let your head do the job!

Regards

[Dima-RussianArms]

Weissent, please understand that it is hard for me to stay "level headed" on this issue because the guys not just stayed behind but were killing those with whom served and took oath.
I understand that everyone wants to live but at what price?
To me what these guys have done equals to that american soldier throwing a grenade into the tent with his comrades, how do you justify something like that?

I don't have any hate towards mujahadeen, they were fighting for their land, they were defending their way of life and culture, what those (can even think of the apropriate name for them) were fighting for?

[Werewolf01]

Traitors are traitors. I f^ckin hate em all. :fork:

[weissent]

Weissent, please understand that it is hard for me to stay "level headed" on this issue because the guys not just stayed behind but were killing those with whom served and took oath.
I understand that everyone wants to live but at what price?
To me what these guys have done equals to that american soldier throwing a grenade into the tent with his comrades, how do you justify something like that?

I don't have any hate towards mujahadeen, they were fighting for their land, they were defending their way of life and culture, what those (can even think of the apropriate name for them) were fighting for?

Dima-RussianArms; I thank you for this answer; don't take me wrong: I respect Russian soldiers wherever their action was/is. As you can see in my profile, I am German and that puts me in a twisted situation (regarding my history).
I personally have settled to honor all the dead of the old war (which may not find your approvement; nevertheless I have lit candles for all the dead in the church near the monument of victory (in Moscow, don't know the name...).

It would be great if we could exchange opinions and interpretations of this matter without hurling offensive remarks at each other....

Regards,
weissent

[Baltic]

[quote="Dima-RussianArms"]Baltic, why do you post this bs if not to missinform or start a flame war?
/quote]

I thought that some people might not like this article. I really did not intend to start a flame war.

I found Russian version of this article which seemed interesting to me.

[Dima-RussianArms]

Dima-RussianArms; I thank you for this answer; don't take me wrong: I respect Russian soldiers wherever their action was/is. As you can see in my profile, I am German and that puts me in a twisted situation (regarding my history).
I personally have settled to honor all the dead of the old war (which may not find your approvement; nevertheless I have lit candles for all the dead in the church near the monument of victory (in Moscow, don't know the name...).

It would be great if we could exchange opinions and interpretations of this matter without hurling offensive remarks at each other....

Regards,
weissent

Weissent, I thank you for words and deeds. What have happened in the past must stay there, tragic mistakes were made but neither you nor me are responsible for what have happened, so lets move on and live in the present, think about the future.
I don't know how most of the Germans feel about Russians but we consider Germany to be our best friend in the West, a lot of it has to do with our President :)

Russians and Germans are two Great nations that should be friends.
Besides, I am sure you are well aware of this fact, but one of the Greatest rulers Russia ever had was German - Catherine, born Sophia Augusta Frederika of Anhalt-Zerbst
;)

Militarywise, I'll sum up my thoughts and feeling just by saying that I think Russian military should be modeled after Bundeswehr.

[Dima-RussianArms]

I thought that some people might not like this article. I really did not intend to start a flame war.

I found Russian version of this article which seemed interesting to me.
You knowingly post a bs article and what kind of reply do you expect?
Btw, what is your explanation for "sworn with the bible and a sword" and 23000 KIA in english version vs 15000KIA in the Russian version of the same article?

[CPL Trevoga]

Dima-RussianArms; I thank you for this answer; don't take me wrong: I respect Russian soldiers wherever their action was/is. As you can see in my profile, I am German and that puts me in a twisted situation (regarding my history).
I personally have settled to honor all the dead of the old war (which may not find your approvement; nevertheless I have lit candles for all the dead in the church near the monument of victory (in Moscow, don't know the name...).

It would be great if we could exchange opinions and interpretations of this matter without hurling offensive remarks at each other....

Regards,
weissent

Weissent, I thank you for words and deeds. What have happened in the past must stay there, tragic mistakes were made but neither you nor me are responsible for what have happened, so lets move on and live in the present, think about the future.
I don't know how most of the Germans feel about Russians but we consider Germany to be our best friend in the West, a lot of it has to do with our President :)

Russians and Germans are two Great nations that should be friends.
Besides, I am sure you are well aware of this fact, but one of the Greatest rulers Russia ever had was German - Catherine, born Sophia Augusta Frederika of Anhalt-Zerbst
;)

Militarywise, I'll sum up my thoughts and feeling just by saying that I think Russian military should be modeled after Bundeswehr.

Wow, Russian-German lovefest. Let's get drunk and party with Ukranian chickas.

[Roy Batty]

I'll pass thanks. I had enough of drunk Germans in Afghanistan. :lol:

[weissent]

I'll pass thanks. I had enough of drunk Germans in Afghanistan. :lol:

Lol, you got molested or why the negativity :P

[weissent]

Dima-RussianArms; I thank you for this answer; don't take me wrong: I respect Russian soldiers wherever their action was/is. As you can see in my profile, I am German and that puts me in a twisted situation (regarding my history).
I personally have settled to honor all the dead of the old war (which may not find your approvement; nevertheless I have lit candles for all the dead in the church near the monument of victory (in Moscow, don't know the name...).

It would be great if we could exchange opinions and interpretations of this matter without hurling offensive remarks at each other....

Regards,
weissent

Weissent, I thank you for words and deeds. What have happened in the past must stay there, tragic mistakes were made but neither you nor me are responsible for what have happened, so lets move on and live in the present, think about the future.
I don't know how most of the Germans feel about Russians but we consider Germany to be our best friend in the West, a lot of it has to do with our President :)

Russians and Germans are two Great nations that should be friends.
Besides, I am sure you are well aware of this fact, but one of the Greatest rulers Russia ever had was German - Catherine, born Sophia Augusta Frederika of Anhalt-Zerbst
;)

Militarywise, I'll sum up my thoughts and feeling just by saying that I think Russian military should be modeled after Bundeswehr.

Wow, Russian-German lovefest. Let's get drunk and party with Ukranian chickas.

Sorry, looking back on the hate-fests we had in this forum, it might be a good change. And there are way too many unsolved issues between Russia and Germany; it is good that we are able to have a platform to talk stuff over...

I don't expect other nations to really understand this.

[CMEPTb]

Why is everyone getting upset over the article? Its common knowledge that there were defectors who took up arms against Soviets (both in Afghanistan, and in Chechnya). The Soviet government always lied about the numbers of its own dead and wounded - I've read several reputable historians claim that the losses might have been 3 times what the soviets actually reported in Afghanistan(45,000).

[sergey31]

Why is everyone getting upset over the article? Its common knowledge that there were defectors who took up arms against Soviets (both in Afghanistan, and in Chechnya). The Soviet government always lied about the numbers of its own dead and wounded - I've read several reputable historians claim that the losses might have been 3 times what the soviets actually reported in Afghanistan(45,000).

No one is getting upset; we just like to call things by their names. Scum, traitor, lowlifes, human waste etc. There is no justification whatsoever in taking up arms against your own people in a foreign land and denying your brothers in coming back home to their loved ones. In a war there is a survival instinct but that is just crossing the line and execution in a case like that is a must.
Soviets did not lie about the casualty in Afghan war, and if they did then they were off my a 1,000 or so. After the socialist government had a changeover in 1991 many secrets surfaced up and it would have been in this case if there was any truth to those ridiculous claims.
Those reputable historians are full of crap and I have no respect in their westernizes anti Soviet opinions. I saw many of them on TV shows through the 90's on Discovery channel and other show with their stupid views that still reeks from cold war mentality. There's no such thing as reputable historians.

[CMEPTb]

I agree that they're scum, but how do you know that the soviet figures are only off by 1000? As much as things have changed since '91, a lot of **** is still the same - the government is still autocratic, and there is still no freedom of the press. I remember how hours after the Moscow siege ended some russian minister stood in front of the cameras and with a straight face told the world that there were no casualties among the hostages or the alfa team.

[sergey31]

I agree that they're scum, but how do you know that the soviet figures are only off by 1000? As much as things have changed since '91, a lot of **** is still the same - the government is still autocratic, and there is still no freedom of the press. I remember how hours after the Moscow siege ended some russian minister stood in front of the cameras and with a straight face told the world that there were no casualties among the hostages or the alfa team.

The simple reason is that there is no need to hide that kind of info. Nothing secret about it and Soviet-Afghan has passed long time ago.

Russians politicians lie as much as American politicians, they are all the same.

[Roy Batty]

I'll pass thanks. I had enough of drunk Germans in Afghanistan. :lol:

Lol, you got molested or why the negativity :P

Nah. Just joking. We had lots of fun with the German troops that we worked with. They had no real rules about drinking in theater while we were only allowed 2 beers per day.

[weissent]

I agree that they're scum, but how do you know that the soviet figures are only off by 1000? As much as things have changed since '91, a lot of **** is still the same - the government is still autocratic, and there is still no freedom of the press. I remember how hours after the Moscow siege ended some russian minister stood in front of the cameras and with a straight face told the world that there were no casualties among the hostages or the alfa team.

The simple reason is that there is no need to hide that kind of info. Nothing secret about it and Soviet-Afghan has passed long time ago.

[...]

I don't know ... Americans and Brits are still keeping their files about ww2 in hiding, maybe the Russians have similar politics (esp. reg. a war that's only a little over 20 years past?)?

[sergey31]

I agree that they're scum, but how do you know that the soviet figures are only off by 1000? As much as things have changed since '91, a lot of **** is still the same - the government is still autocratic, and there is still no freedom of the press. I remember how hours after the Moscow siege ended some russian minister stood in front of the cameras and with a straight face told the world that there were no casualties among the hostages or the alfa team.

The simple reason is that there is no need to hide that kind of info. Nothing secret about it and Soviet-Afghan has passed long time ago.

[...]

I don't know ... Americans and Brits are still keeping their files about ww2 in hiding, maybe the Russians have similar politics (esp. reg. a war that's only a little over 20 years past?)?

If Americans and Brits are keeping secrets about WW2 then I don't think it would be casualty count but rather something else.

[Dima-RussianArms]

As much as things have changed since '91, a lot of **** is still the same - the government is still autocratic, and there is still no freedom of the press.
Ha...
If you only could read Russian...
Russian press/media is free from everything, including censorship.
"No free press" in Russia is just another propaganda stereotype that has nothing to do with the modern day Russia.
In a way you are right: media is never "free" from the bias/views of a person sponsoring it.
Unfortunately the only way for you to see just hom much free press/media is in Russia is to be able read russian.
I dare any russian speaking/reading person to swear on his loved ones health that all media in Russia is controlled by the government.

There are multitude of newspapers, TV stations and internet sites that awash Russian government with feces on a daily basis.

I remember how hours after the Moscow siege ended some russian minister stood in front of the cameras and with a straight face told the world that there were no casualties among the hostages or the alfa team
Well there were no casualties among the SF
As for an official claiming "no casualties among hostages"...
#1 He was misinformed by his staff
#2 Bush & Co are his role models ;)

Here is very detailed list of Soviet military manpower losses during 20th century (sorry Russian language only)
http://www.rus-sky.org/history/library/w/w10.htm#_Toc2489843

Think about it, where from western journalists and historians could get their info about Soviet losses?
From nowhere because USSR archives were closed to most of the soviets let alone forigners! So all of those "expert historians" are full of crap (estimates sucke out of their fingers to fit their agendas/views).

13339 it is the number of bodybags, it is a number of death certificates, number of paid out compensations, etc. It is the number with the concrete evidence behind them.

[Dima-RussianArms]

Baltic, where did you go?
What happened to answering my questions?

Шо блядь чмо малое, насрал и в кусты?
А за базар отвечать?

[Ballistic]

There is no such thing as good or evil. There are positions.

Errr, I can think up a few people in history that have been purely evil in their deeds. No my friend, there is such a thing as good and evil.

[CMEPTb]

As much as things have changed since '91, a lot of **** is still the same - the government is still autocratic, and there is still no freedom of the press.
Ha...
If you only could read Russian...
Russian press/media is free from everything, including censorship.
"No free press" in Russia is just another propaganda stereotype that has nothing to do with the modern day Russia.
In a way you are right: media is never "free" from the bias/views of a person sponsoring it.
Unfortunately the only way for you to see just hom much free press/media is in Russia is to be able read russian.
I dare any russian speaking/reading person to swear on his loved ones health that all media in Russia is controlled by the government.

There are multitude of newspapers, TV stations and internet sites that awash Russian government with feces on a daily basis.

I remember how hours after the Moscow siege ended some russian minister stood in front of the cameras and with a straight face told the world that there were no casualties among the hostages or the alfa team
Well there were no casualties among the SF
As for an official claiming "no casualties among hostages"...
#1 He was misinformed by his staff
#2 Bush & Co are his role models ;)

Here is very detailed list of Soviet military manpower losses during 20th century (sorry Russian language only)
http://www.rus-sky.org/history/library/w/w10.htm#_Toc2489843

Think about it, where from western journalists and historians could get their info about Soviet losses?
From nowhere because USSR archives were closed to most of the soviets let alone forigners! So all of those "expert historians" are full of crap (estimates sucke out of their fingers to fit their agendas/views).

13339 it is the number of bodybags, it is a number of death certificates, number of paid out compensations, etc. It is the number with the concrete evidence behind them.


I can read Russian - thank you for your personal interest in the matter. As far as free media goes, of course there are critics of the Kremlin, but when was the last time you heard of journalists in the West being assasinated after criticising the government?

What evil agenda do the historians have? Bashing commies who have lied about their losses since before 1917? Any official commie doctrine is as concrete as piss.

[Dima-RussianArms]

but when was the last time you heard of journalists in the West being assasinated after criticising the government?

When was the last time you heard journalists in Russia were assassinated for critisizing the government? Examples please.

[James]

but when was the last time you heard of journalists in the West being assasinated after criticising the government?

When was the last time you heard journalists in Russia were assassinated for critisizing the government? Examples please.

Valery Ivanov, 29 April 2002


The Togliatti Review had written frequently in recent months about local criminal groups in Togliatti, home to Russia's biggest carmaker, Avtovaz. Ivanov had also spoken written about corruption among local officials, and against pressure on journalists in post-Soviet Russia such as criminal threats or tax raids against news organizations critical of the authorities.

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16233

more here http://user.intersatx.net/jc/columns/russian_journalists.html

[Baltic]

Baltic, where did you go?
What happened to answering my questions?

Шо блядь чмо малое, насрал и в кусты?
А за базар отвечать?
My presence heremight ignite the flame :(
Besides that I got MA diploma today and I'm gonna get drunk :)



"Sworn on the sword and bible" in the Soviet Army!!! :cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli:

We don't know what did he say and what journalist had written. By the way this might be only a metaphor.



Ok, lets leave the official unclassified after disolvement of the USSR figure of 13339 but the link to the article from the Russian website that you gave us says 15000, then in the english version it becomes 23000!!!
How do you explain that?

Many sources regarding Afganistan war are still classified. So numbers might differ greately. For example there is no numbers victims of Stalinizm terror. I heard numbers of 5 - 20 - 30 - even 50 millions :)

Regarding Afgan war I heard different numbers too. It was common practise for USSR to hide real facts even from itself. For example we barely know nothing about Soviets involvment in Africa or South America, we don't have number of Chernobyl victims and so on.

[Lokos]

Bashing commies who have lied about their losses since before 1917?

Not to themselves they haven't. Soviet military science demanded accuracy in such matters. And Krivosheev uses internal documents, not estimates. He is certainly the most reliable authority for Soviet losses in WW2 and beyond.


It was common practise for USSR to hide real facts even from itself.

No, it really, really wasn't. Soviet military operations were meticulously documented. If you don't know about them, it's because they haven't been declassified, not because the regime 'lied to itself'. Like I said; losses in Afghanistan were declassified long ago, and Krivosheev was using internal casualty report documents when collating his information. There is NO more reliable source than he for such things, and NO reason to doubt his assertions without proof to the contrary.


For example there is no numbers victims of Stalinizm terror.

Actually, the FSB released very substantial data on numbers of victims of the Terror last September (from the KGB archives). These covered all those who were directly eliminated by the state (executed/sent to penal colonies etc). While the actual number of victims was substantial, the numbers '20/30/50 million' are a farce and an insult to the intelligence of the individual willing to believe such nonsense.


For example we barely know nothing about Soviets involvment in Africa or South America,

Key word; 'we'. The FSB certainly knows, as the inheritors of the KGB archives. When the data is declassified, you'll know about it too, if you so wish. But you should have noticed something. There are NO numbers in regards to Africa or South America. The casualty list for Afghanistan, however, is detailed to the point of being pedantic. Why? Because the former remains classified, and the later not.

I'm sure you see what I'm getting at.


we don't have number of Chernobyl victims and so on.


If the government didn't compile a casualty figure of Chernobyl victims, then that's that. This was not the KGB's area of responsibility, but was the responsibility of the civil administration of the locality. What relevance does any of this have in terms of Afghanistan?

Lokos

[Dima-RussianArms]

The Togliatti Review had written frequently in recent months about local criminal groups in Togliatti, home to Russia's biggest carmaker, Avtovaz. Ivanov had also spoken written about corruption among local officials, and against pressure on journalists in post-Soviet Russia such as criminal threats or tax raids against news organizations critical of the authorities.

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16233

more here http://user.intersatx.net/jc/columns/russian_journalists.html


had written frequently in recent months about local criminal groups in Togliatti, home to Russia's biggest carmaker, Avtovaz.

I'll repeat my question again:
When was the last time you heard journalists in Russia were assassinated for critisizing the government? Examples please.

[Dima-RussianArms]

We don't know what did he say and what journalist had written. By the way this might be only a metaphor.
methaphor about the sword and a bible in the Russian army - :lol: :cantbeli: :roll:

Many sources regarding Afganistan war are still classified.
What sources are still classified? examples please

Regarding Afgan war I heard different numbers too. It was common practise for USSR to hide real facts even from itself.
BS and you know it.
Politburo might have distorted public facts but why would they lie to themselves?


For example we barely know nothing about Soviets involvment in Africa or South America, we don't have number of Chernobyl victims and so on.
The link that I provided in my previous post contains very detailed information of which you "barely know"

Dude, you have posted this BS with an agenda as you always do but when confronted with facts - you can't take it like a man and start backpeddaling and twisting as "уж на сковородке". Так что не надо ля-ля мальчик...

[James]

The Togliatti Review had written frequently in recent months about local criminal groups in Togliatti, home to Russia's biggest carmaker, Avtovaz. Ivanov had also spoken written about corruption among local officials, and against pressure on journalists in post-Soviet Russia such as criminal threats or tax raids against news organizations critical of the authorities.

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16233

more here http://user.intersatx.net/jc/columns/russian_journalists.html


had written frequently in recent months about local criminal groups in Togliatti, home to Russia's biggest carmaker, Avtovaz.

I'll repeat my question again:
When was the last time you heard journalists in Russia were assassinated for critisizing the government? Examples please.

You can read the articles yourself... I'm not going to point things out line by line...
If you don't want to believe it, fine. I'm not ging to argue about it.

[VISTREL]

James, your article doesn't prove ****...

Ivanov was killed because he wrote articles exposing organized crime in Toliyatti, Khlebnikov was killed because he wrote a book about ex-Russian oligargh, Boris Berezovskiy, in his Forbes article "The godfather of Kremlin", however, Berezovskiy is not member of the government, and is wanted by russian government for tax evasion....

[James]

Whatever... Someone wanted to see an article about a journalist who had been killed after criticizing the government over there... In all honesty I don't care enough to make it any more of an issue.

So what about those Russkies who are still in A'Stan? I am always curious myself when I see a guy in his 2os with red hair, freckles, and skin lighter than mine. Hmm...

[Rebel 7]

I was wondering if anyone here (especially the Russian members) could shed some light on the two Soviet bodyguards Massoud had. I've read different articles on the issue, some stating that they were captured POWs who converted to Islam during the Soviet-Afghan war and became Massoud's personal bodyguards while Bruce G. Richardson claims in his article that they were "Soviet commandos" paid and hired by Massoud and these claims are further made in the book "Charlie Wilson's War." From my own research and insight into the situation, I've come to understand that they were captured POWs who converted and became Massoud's personal bodyguards after and now have returned back to their homeland, but find the other claim (the one that they were hired Soviet commandos paid by Massoud during the Soviet war to protect him) contradicting many facts (notably the fact that it would not make sense for an Afghan Mujahideen commander at war with the Soviets to hire Soviet bodyguards). Any further comments and insights into the issue are appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Rebel 7

[StukaJr]

Actually, the FSB released very substantial data on numbers of victims of the Terror last September (from the KGB archives). These covered all those who were directly eliminated by the state (executed/sent to penal colonies etc). While the actual number of victims was substantial, the numbers '20/30/50 million' are a farce and an insult to the intelligence of the individual willing to believe such nonsense.


Lokos - is there a way you could post a link or a publication refference which explores those numbers? Russian language prefered, but then numbers are numbers p-)

I'm afraid my sources might go as old as reading "Archipelag Gulag" as an impressionable child :oops:

[Lokos]

StukaJr:

The FSB website is a good bet. Now, I've only seen the documents themselves, which were extracted from the released/declassified KGB archives, so I can't help you with the specific address. But the core documents are all, of course, in Russian. I, unfortunately, don't speak the language, so my copy of the document had to go through several professional translators before I was able to use it, and before Stepehen Wheatcroft (the head Russian specialist at the university I was studying at) could compile it for his latest journal article(s) on the Revolution and the Leninist/early Stalinist periods.

Lokos

[StukaJr]

Thanks, Lokos -

I have been having a share of success with finding fragments of data on a russian language websites - but wouldn't mind doing a search through original documents...

Thanks again for the suggestion.

[Son_Of_Suvorov]

I am always curious myself when I see a guy in his 2os with red hair, freckles, and skin lighter than mine. Hmm...

Well, if you're black, it shouldn't surprise you. If you are well read in history, it shouldn't surprise you either, but it would surprise me that you are. The reason is the same reason why the Altai ice mummies are blonde, and people with dark complexions were a rarity in Iran (which, btw, derives from a Persian word that means "land of the Aryans") before the Arab invasion, namely that most of Asia was at one time ruled by the Scythians.

[James]

Dude,

WTF are you talking about?

[StukaJr]

Dude,

WTF are you talking about?

While dark skin and narrow slit eyes are predominant in the Afganistan - it is not the true native feature of its native inhabitants. For example, in Tadjikistan or Armenia, as you go higher into the mountains - the skin of the people gets lighter and the eyes are wider. The explanation is that the invaders (like the Golden Horde or the Turks) had little success in conquering those hard to reach regions - thus keeping the race clear of being assimilated. A good explanation, why ethnic Uzbeks look almost Mongolian with a lot less natural deffensive barriers - same goes for many asian features in many Russians.

There was a Discovery Channel Special about a very segregated tribe of ethnic Mongolians, living in the mountains of Afganistan for hundreds of years.

As per ex-Soviet traitors - the conditions of their survival meant that they had to take a life or lives of other Soviet prisoners whom had a backbone not to betray themselves and their nation. Being "Tied up by blood" together with conversion to Islam is the lowest form of Betrayal - the far opposite to what being celebrated as being a hero.

[Roy Batty]

I don't know about the rest of the country but "narrow slit eyes" are not the norm around Kabul. The people there have the same features as we do with darker skin and hair. The exception is the mongols who are imigrants and the red/blond headed people that you sometimes run across.