Shariah police.....in Nashville

[BigBaribal]

Metro Nashville Police said someone burned the Koran, the holy book of the Islam, and left it at the door of the Islamic Center of Nashville Wednesday.

They said human feces were also left on the center's porch.

“This is what we consider our way to Heaven and our way to our Lord. We communicate with him through this book,” said Abdulhakim Mohamed, a mosque prayer leader.

Mike Hagar of the Metro Police department said, “The community is rightfully outraged about it, and the police department takes it very seriously. We have specialized investigators who have responded to the scene to investigate this, and we will investigate it appropriately.”

Metro Police were investigating but said they did not immediately have any suspects.


http://www.newschannel5.com/content/news/12326.asp

[Nikitaras]

Shariah police? More like the cops are investigating a hate crime.

[mcworldorjihad]

Arck, I wouldn't worry about it; his lot have a thing about dog poo.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3894529.stm


Regards,

Bob

[Werewolf01]

Arck, I wouldn't worry about it; his lot have a thing about dog poo.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3894529.stm


Regards,

Bob

Or the Russians when they return a ship you've loaned them...

[mcworldorjihad]

Or the Russians when they return shipd you've loaned them...


Sorry mate, is that meant to be an insult? You'll have to explain it to me as I haven't got a clue about what your on.

Cheers,

Bob

[theg]

man ı want to ask u sth really.
why are u attaced islam evertime? dont u have got any work or topic?
ok maybe now some muslims are very radical. but u shouldnt produce at islam to this man.

but if u got some problem with islam, go and learn real islam.
islam is tolerate religion. radical people can make some mistake in the name of islam. but this is not true.
(note: ı didnt read ur all article. but i see ur nick alltime with anti-islamic topic. this comment is alltimes)

[Geezah]

Arck, I wouldn't worry about it; his lot have a thing about dog poo.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3894529.stm


Regards,

Bob


The Secret Agent also shows the party's leader Nick Griffin condemning Islam as a "vicious wicked faith".


He calls Islam a "wicked, vicious faith" that "has expanded through a handful of cranky lunatics" and "is now sweeping country after country".

I can't say he's all that far off, I've not seen anything from anyone telling me otherwise!
How often do you see Muslims condemning flag burning or coming out against these extremists?

[<Gypsum Fantastic>]

How often do men condemn wife beating?

Why do you think Muslims have to condemn a terrorist attack, they despise these attacks on civilians as much as anyone. In the same way that most men hate wife beating, but we don't have to make public statements to make it clear. If you need it spelt out to you then that is a problem within your own perception of Muslimsn and not with Muslims themselves.


And quoting BNP propaganda, that says more about you than anything else...

[mcworldorjihad]

I can't say he's all that far off, I've not seen anything from anyone telling me otherwise!

That puts you in the catogory of extremist. After all, Furher Griffin was arrested and charged over his remarks.


How often do you see Muslims condemning flag burning or coming out against these extremists?

Regulary, there's many moderate Muslim groups in this country who condemn religious extremism. I can't find it now but there was even a thread on this forum listing respectable Muslim groups (little help anyone?).

Here's a couple of questions for you;

In the UK, other than racist extremists, who else considers all Muslims, or the Muslim faith indeed, to be a threat?

Was there any threat in the UK from Muslim extremists before the War on Afghanistan/Iraq?

Regards

Bob

[mcworldorjihad]

Why do you think Muslims have to condemn a terrorist attack, they despise these attacks on civilians as much as anyone. In the same way that most men hate wife beating, but we don't have to make public statements to make it clear. If you need it spelt out to you then that is a problem within your own perception of Muslimsn and not with Muslims themselves.

Exactly, the Muslim community in the UK have nothing to do with religious extremism so it's not their job to condemn it. Fanatical belief in any faith, regardless of religion, is a terrible thing, and we in the UK should know pretty well about that. After all, should every Christian community be responsible for condemning the tensions in Glasgow and Northern Ireland?


Are you a plasterer? What's your name about?

Regards,

Bob

[Werewolf01]

Or the Russians when they return shipd you've loaned them...


Sorry mate, is that meant to be an insult? You'll have to explain it to me as I haven't got a clue about what your on.

Cheers,

Bob

No its not an insult, this entire thread just reminded my of a story I read about the Russians returning a ship to Britian after WWII. They were apparently quite upset about it, so they left little "gifts" alllllll over the ship. :|

[Geezah]

How often do men condemn wife beating?

Are you saying we should come out and condemn the Muslim views towards women?



Why do you think Muslims have to condemn a terrorist attack, they despise these attacks on civilians as much as anyone. In the same way that most men hate wife beating, but we don't have to make public statements to make it clear. If you need it spelt out to you then that is a problem within your own perception of Muslimsn and not with Muslims themselves.

In my mind keeping sturm is no different than supporting it vocally.



And quoting BNP propaganda, that says more about you than anything else...

I couldn't care less what you think a couple of quotes from the BBC says about me, don't try and paint me as being rascist.

We have Muslim extremists that are a problem and I do not see the Muslim community taking a stand against it, when was the last time we saw the Muslims protesting against these extremists that do what they do because Allah is Great?

[BigBaribal]

Shariah police? More like the cops are investigating a hate crime.


I believed there was no more blasphemy crime in modern countries.

For instance, you can go to my country to burn a bible and you won't risk anything.

[Ayura]

You tell me what the muslim view towards women is :)

[Ayura]

Shariah police? More like the cops are investigating a hate crime.


I believed there was no more blasphemy crime in modern countries.

For instance, you can go to my country to burn a bible and you won't risk anything.


So basically - you do not accept cultural differances then really do you? Just because a particular committed action doesn't cause a response of your culture doesn't mean you should expect every other culture to react to the same actions. Deal with it.

[Ayura]

Some organisations run by Muslims against terrorism in the name of Islam (more p.c. language :))-

http://www.rayhawk.com/classics.html

http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

http://www.freemuslims.org/

[BigBaribal]

man ı want to ask u sth really.
why are u attaced islam evertime? dont u have got any work or topic?
ok maybe now some muslims are very radical. but u shouldnt produce at islam to this man.

but if u got some problem with islam, go and learn real islam.
islam is tolerate religion. radical people can make some mistake in the name of islam. but this is not true.
(note: ı didnt read ur all article. but i see ur nick alltime with anti-islamic topic. this comment is alltimes)


I've read coran twice, read also many hadiths and interpretations in the library of a theology school (I'm a kind of masochist sometimes). And also lots of books on the subject, either pro-ones or against-ones.

Btw, one can always recognize a tree by its fruits.

Notice also that you will never hear me about islam in islamic countries: they do what they want at home.


P.S. A good blog from someone who knows the system for the inner side:

http://ayaanhirsiali.web-log.nl/categorie/46044

[Geezah]

I can't say he's all that far off, I've not seen anything from anyone telling me otherwise!

That puts you in the catogory of extremist. After all, Furher Griffin was arrested and charged over his remarks.

Because it's PC gone mad, I can understand him getting nicked for giving someone a kicking but over saying that is over the top especially when you have Muslim clerics in the UK advocating violence towards infidels!



How often do you see Muslims condemning flag burning or coming out against these extremists?

Regulary, there's many moderate Muslim groups in this country who condemn religious extremism. I can't find it now but there was even a thread on this forum listing respectable Muslim groups (little help anyone?).

I'd like to know where, I know for a fact it wasn't Bradford!



Here's a couple of questions for you;

In the UK, other than racist extremists, who else considers all Muslims, or the Muslim faith indeed, to be a threat?

Was there any threat in the UK from Muslim extremists before the War on Afghanistan/Iraq?


So are you suggesting that all Muslims in the UK are warm and fuzzy?

[Geezah]

You tell me what the muslim view towards women is :)

Are they considered equal?

[Ayura]

That still doesn't mean you know anything about the Islam baribal. Noone can possibly understand the full extent of Islam, it is impossible. Your research is highly unsufficient I'm afraid.


Btw, one can always recognize a tree by its fruits.


There is no wisdom in that quote, even if it does seem clever. Tell me - if a computer user lacks adequate knowledge of the computer and the computer system becomes damaged, isn't it likely that that particular user caused the damage? Thus - it wasn't the computer's fault, but the person.

[Ayura]

You tell me what the muslim view towards women is :)

Are they considered equal?

Yes.

[BigBaribal]

You tell me what the muslim view towards women is :)

Are they considered equal?

To be honest, King of Maroc, who is also commander of the believers in his country, promoted last years laws which put the women as perfect equal to men.

The problem is that the islam which is developping in Europe is not of this kind, but rather in a paki-seoudi extremist style.

And in fact, the real problem is not that islam in Europe can be tolerant or extremist, the real fact is that islam in Europe is off-topic as a constituted force, you just have to open an history book or to watch TV to know why.



Btw, an islamic center in NASHVILLE. Why not Elvis appearing in Ryad :roll:

[Ayura]

I can't say he's all that far off, I've not seen anything from anyone telling me otherwise!

That puts you in the catogory of extremist. After all, Furher Griffin was arrested and charged over his remarks.

Because it's PC gone mad, I can understand him getting nicked for giving someone a kicking but over saying that is over the top especially when you have Muslim clerics in the UK advocating violence towards infidels!



How often do you see Muslims condemning flag burning or coming out against these extremists?

Regulary, there's many moderate Muslim groups in this country who condemn religious extremism. I can't find it now but there was even a thread on this forum listing respectable Muslim groups (little help anyone?).

I'd like to know where, I know for a fact it wasn't Bradford!



Here's a couple of questions for you;

In the UK, other than racist extremists, who else considers all Muslims, or the Muslim faith indeed, to be a threat?

Was there any threat in the UK from Muslim extremists before the War on Afghanistan/Iraq?


So are you suggesting that all Muslims in the UK are warm and fuzzy?


You said:


but over saying that is over the top especially when you have Muslim clerics in the UK advocating violence towards infidels!

Guranteed that the vast majority of these "clerics" come fresh from these corrupt countries. Believe me, my local scholar was talking about it with me, and I was unfortunate enough to meet one of these people.


I'd like to know where, I know for a fact it wasn't Bradford!

Pfft, Bradford :P Chavistanis (muslim chavs) all over the place :P

[Geezah]

You tell me what the muslim view towards women is :)

Are they considered equal?

Yes.

Arh please, then why is it woman have to cover themselves up, why are woman only allowed to walk in public with their husband or family member, why are women not allowed to be around food during that time of the month and so on........

Maybe I'm missing somethinG here and you could explain it to me?

[BigBaribal]

You tell me what the muslim view towards women is :)

Are they considered equal?

Yes.


No.

For instance, after an heritage, a woman doesn't get the same amount as man.

She also has not an equal authority over the children.

Also in many islamic countries, many women can't travel alone and leave their country, because they are not legally considered as "mature".

[mcworldorjihad]

Is there a reason why you don't answer my questions? They're not asked for any other reason than to find out your views. For someone who's so keen on accerting their opinion, you certainly have difficulties standing by it.

I don't believe that all Muslims are "warm and fuzzy" nor do I understand the relevance of the question. I have already stated that their are fanatical extremists in all religions.

Tell me about the situation in Oldham, I would really like to hear this from you. Of course race haters stirring up trouble are going to recieve a violent response from people, it happened in Moseley's day and it sure as hell happens now - and good on it I say.

Gyspum Fanatic was not painting you as a racist, he has no need to. From your comments it's clear you do an adequate job yourself.

Bob

[Ayura]

You tell me what the muslim view towards women is :)

Are they considered equal?

Yes.

Arh please, then why is it woman have to cover themselves up, why are woman only allowed to walk in public with their husband or family member, why are women not allowed to be around food during that time of the month and so on........

Maybe I'm missing somethinG here and you could explain it to me?

It seems you have basic questions being put-forth here.

You are talking about "Hijab". In Arabic, this simply means "to cover" "veil" etc - those sorts of meanings. Allah has commended us that we should protect our modesty, as it serves our benifits greatly.

http://www.irf.net/book2.zip

Copy and paste that into your web browser and you will find your question in there with the bestest explanation I can possibly find on the internet.


p.s. you need adobe acrobat reader to view.

[Aerosoul]

Hm, I didn't hear about this (I'm in Nashville). Interesting story.

[Lazy Lob]

There is no wisdom in that quote, even if it does seem clever. Tell me - if a computer user lacks adequate knowledge of the computer and the computer system becomes damaged, isn't it likely that that particular user caused the damage? Thus - it wasn't the computer's fault, but the person.

Aaaaah Grasshopper...... He who chases around after many rabbits ends hungry.

You are so full of ****e.

[BigBaribal]

About woman's condition in the islamic world, just make a google search about Taslima Nasreen for instance:


Our religion doesn't give women any human dignity. Women are considered slaves.…I write against the religion because if women want to live like human beings, they will have to live outside the religion and Islamic law.


Or just look what still happening in Pakistan:

http://img143.echo.cx/img143/3177/050620pakistaniburnswifeanddau.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)



Of course, this is horrible, but in a sense, it's the problem of the muslims who must find their ways alone to a more peaceful and tolerant vision of their religion.

But this is not our problem, in the western countries, and we should have nothing to do, especially in our countries, about these thematics which are completely "off-topic" to us.

I don't put my nose in the business of the other countries, so I just don't want that aliens with totally different mentalities put their noses in the business of my country.

[Ayura]

You tell me what the muslim view towards women is :)

Are they considered equal?

Yes.


No.

For instance, after an heritage, a woman doesn't get the same amount as man.

She also has not an equal authority over the children.

Also in many islamic countries, many women can't travel alone and leave their country, because they are not legally considered as "mature".


Inheritance laws: I will copy and paste from an article. It doesn't exactly direct the question but just read:


Many times I debate with Christian and non Muslim folks, they bring the inheritance law in Islam as an unjust law to women. According to Islam, the son inherits double the daughter, which means that: One son gets what two daughters get. It is quite unfortunate that Islam is the most misunderstood religion in the world, and the inheritance law in Islam is just one little example of many that needs to be clarified so people would realize the real wisdom and justice in Islam and start appreciating it and respecting it more.

My dear Muslim brother or sister, or my dear fellow Christian friend, according to Islam, it is my responsibility as a man to provide the financial source to my wife, kids, parents (when they get old), and my sisters (if they become widows). And if I refuse to support my widow sister for instance, then if she decides to take me to court and sue me, and prove that I make enough money to be able to support my wife, kids and my widow sister, then the court will force me to pay her money every month to support her. This law in Islam is called the law of "Nafaqa".

The woman according to islam does not have to provide a single dollar, nor her husband has the right to ask her or force her to use her money to support her husband and kids. In fact, just to show you how fair and respectful Islam is to women, a woman has the right to ask her husband for money for breast feeding her their child.

Furthermore, according to the Islamic laws, the husband does not have the right to force his wife to work if she doesn't want to. It is the man's primary responsibility to support his family financially, and not the woman. Also, in Islam, the wife has all the right to ask her husband to pay for her education if she wishes to go to school. Women in Islam have the right to be educated, and it is their parents' responsibilities (if the women are single), or their husband's responsibility to pay for their education.


You also mentioned this:
She also has not an equal authority over the children.

Proof please.


Also in many islamic countries, many women can't travel alone and leave their country, because they are not legally considered as "mature".

In many Islamic countries, they are run by dictatorships and corrupt leaders. This is an irrelevent peice of evidence.

[BigBaribal]

Is there a reason why you don't answer my questions? They're not asked for any other reason than to find out your views. For someone who's so keen on accerting their opinion, you certainly have difficulties standing by it.

I don't believe that all Muslims are "warm and fuzzy" nor do I understand the relevance of the question. I have already stated that their are fanatical extremists in all religions.

Tell me about the situation in Oldham, I would really like to hear this from you. Of course race haters stirring up trouble are going to recieve a violent response from people, it happened in Moseley's day and it sure as hell happens now - and good on it I say.

Gyspum Fanatic was not painting you as a racist, he has no need to. From your comments it's clear you do an adequate job yourself.

Bob


So, if I'm a racist, as a logic consequence islam should be a race.

Strange, and how does look the catholic race or the buddhist race?

Once again, a total mix of concepts not on the same level.

[Ayura]

I agree Baribal. One should not mix religion with race - similiar like religion with culture.

[mcworldorjihad]

So, if I'm a racist, as a logic consequence islam should be a race.

Strange, and how does look the catholic race or the buddhist race?

Once again, a total mix of concepts not on the same level.

My post was not directed at you, but from your previous comments made on this bored it's quite clear you are a racist.

I do understand how you have got confused though, with me starting a post "Thank you for not answering me questions..."


Bob

[chauncy republicans]

You tell me what the muslim view towards women is :)

Are they considered equal?

Yes.

Arh please, then why is it woman have to cover themselves up, why are woman only allowed to walk in public with their husband or family member, why are women not allowed to be around food during that time of the month and so on........

Maybe I'm missing somethinG here and you could explain it to me?
:roll: Geezah, if the ill treatment of women was the standard thing to do as an Islamic male, then why does the treatment of women differ so much between the Islamic states?

[Ayura]

Also, why do the muslim women in my area recieve 100 times more better treatment then the women who hang around with ol'geezahz? :P


Believe me, I can take you around places where women are mistreated in the name of drugs :bash:

[Lazy Lob]

So, if I'm a racist, as a logic consequence islam should be a race.

Strange, and how does look the catholic race or the buddhist race?

Once again, a total mix of concepts not on the same level.

That's what got me. I never knew Islam was a race.

[BigBaribal]

In many Islamic countries, they are run by dictatorships and corrupt leaders. This is an irrelevent peice of evidence.


For instance, such laws were prepared by the algerian islamists when they were about to get to the power. And unhappily, many aspects of these legal projects have been since taken by the current power, at the great fear of the algerian women.

But if you want an example of shariah in action, here's one:

http://img52.echo.cx/img52/4317/0508a16yearsoldgirlhangedinstr.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Btw, this girl stood strong until the end and insulted the mad mullahs to her last breath.




Sorry, but I don't want to take the risk to see that in my country, for myself or for my children and the ones who will come after.

[BigBaribal]

Also, why do the muslim women in my area recieve 100 times more better treatment then the women who hang around with ol'geezahz? :P


Believe me, I can take you around places where women are mistreated in the name of drugs :bash:


When you speak of women "hanging around", you speak of that?

http://img131.echo.cx/img131/3994/clipirihangingwomeninpublicii6.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://img131.echo.cx/img131/1949/clipirihangingwomeninpubliciii.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://img131.echo.cx/img131/4384/clipirikhatamikeepthescaleeven.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)


Btw, an ultra-extremist got very good chances to be the next president in Iran.

[Ayura]

The article doesn't even mention the word "Islam" once. Nor does it mention that the girl was in violation of an islamic law but a violation under the "Guardian council, Iran's highest legislative body." Well done for posting an irrelevent story. There government crime has no associations with Islam.


Iran is hardly the most stable islamic society on the face of the planet now is it? Mohammad Khatami is corrupt as they come.

[BigBaribal]

Btw, look at these cute and sympathetic young afgan girls who have strictly no hope of a personal and self-voluntary future. I'm extremely sad when I see all these lifes waisted!

http://img119.echo.cx/img119/9434/aug2110az3lw.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

And again, I don't want to see this system have the littliest chance to take foot in my area!


Btw, a map about the USA:

http://img119.echo.cx/img119/5271/terrormapnew3bk.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

[Ayura]

Baribal, you have not provided one Hadith or Ayaat from the Qu'ran supporting your views.

[BigBaribal]

The article doesn't even mention the word "Islam" once. Nor does it mention that the girl was in violation of an islamic law but a violation under the "Guardian council, Iran's highest legislative body." Well done for posting an irrelevent story. There government crime has no associations with Islam.


Iran is hardly the most stable islamic society on the face of the planet now is it? Mohammad Khatami is corrupt as they come.


So, this young girl was killed because of the secular democratic legal system of Iran :roll:

She probably stole some candy.

[Geezah]

Is there a reason why you don't answer my questions? They're not asked for any other reason than to find out your views. For someone who's so keen on accerting their opinion, you certainly have difficulties standing by it.

If you like, but I would say you've answered your own questions well enough below, what I've focused on has/had nothing to do with the questions you asked.




I don't believe that all Muslims are "warm and fuzzy" nor do I understand the relevance of the question. I have already stated that their are fanatical extremists in all religions.

But not to the point where Christians call Jihads on infidels, what about Salman Rushdie, it sucked to be him for speaking out against Islam!



Tell me about the situation in Oldham, I would really like to hear this from you. Of course race haters stirring up trouble are going to recieve a violent response from people, it happened in Moseley's day and it sure as hell happens now - and good on it I say.

Not quite sure What you're looking for, but when you have young Muslims saying this it makes you wonder how many others feel the same way?


"Al-Qaeda doesn't exist, it's a fantasy," says Haqueq Siddique as the young men gather round, listen and nod.

"It's the politics of fear."

And the 11 September attacks?

"There was no link," he says, "between the 19 Saudis who blew up the twin towers and Bin Laden."

He dismisses the anti-terrorism legislation introduced since then as unnecessary. "Terrorists don't really want to hurt people," he explained.

"They want to get a message across."


Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4463973.stm)



Gyspum Fanatic was not painting you as a racist, he has no need to. From your comments it's clear you do an adequate job yourself.


I'm rascist because of my ideas on Islam, Islam is the only faith that I have questioned because of their silence towards extremists?

This does not make me rascist, lightweight!

[Ayura]

Btw, look at these cute and sympathetic young afgan girls who have strictly no hope of a personal and self-voluntary future. I'm extremely sad when I see all these lifes waisted!

http://img119.echo.cx/img119/9434/aug2110az3lw.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

And again, I don't want to see this system have the littliest chance to take foot in my area!


Btw, a map about the USA:

http://img119.echo.cx/img119/5271/terrormapnew3bk.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)


Regarding the map - You know this how? They know this how?

That looks like an awful lot of terrorist - looks like your country is already overrun.

[Ayura]

I'm rascist because of my ideas on Islam, Islam is the only faith that I have questioned because of their silence towards extremists?

This does not make me rascist, lightweight!


I just gave you a simple three links. Go search Google.

[BigBaribal]

Baribal, you have not provided one Hadith or Ayaat from the Qu'ran supporting your views.


Ok, I won't go back to the Friboug university to make photocopies of the coran or the hadiths (btw, I saw there sometimes Tarik Ramadan, one of the most clever islamic lobbyist in Europe; a very smart and dangerous guy).

But here's what I found immediately on my HD:

http://img270.echo.cx/img270/8003/ihaveaquestion8um.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

In fact, it's so easy to stay informed about this; just go the muslim forums, they are no more good enough in the takwa practise ;)

[Geezah]

racist

the belief that people's qualities are influenced by their race and that the members of other races are not as good as the members of your own, or the resulting unfair treatment of members of other races:


I'm not questioning a race, just a religion, and why I have yet to see Muslims come out in force and condemn what Muslim extremists do!

[Ayura]

That is a crappy answer to his question. I have seen this one before. He starts his answer with saying about nothing to do with killing and ends in:


If the kuffar allow us to spread Islam peacefully, then we would not wage Jihad against them


Seems Ebrahim forgot this:

["Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Taghut (evil) and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trust worthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. " (Qur'an 2:256)]



EDIT - Ebrahim also provides no quotes from relevent Hadith/Quran.

[Ayura]

I'm not questioning a race, just a religion, and why I have yet to see Muslims come out in force and condemn what Muslim extremists do!


http://hometown.aol.com/mbeve10258/images/bookcover.jpg


This legendary hero is "Ahmed Shah Massoud." Remember that name. He was an ex-military commander who fought against the Taliban, and was blown up by two horrible suicide bombers from Al-Qaeda two days prior to 9/11. He led a resistance that fought often against Taliban.

Is this satisfying or no?

[BigBaribal]

Btw, Ayura, I've strictly nothing against you as an individual and believe me I do respect you without any restrictions, because as an human being you are so much more than your religious system. I can even understand (1) the motives of some iraki insurgents who are fighting for patriotic reasons. More, I can even understand the reasoning of a Ben-Laden wishing to attack the USA, because he saw the US bases in his countries as a threat to the identity of his motherland (2).

BUT I will never accept that islam becomes a power of any sort in MY country, in MY civilisational area (largely this includes of course the USA, of course as long as the USA stays an occidental country).




(1) but not support them of course.
(2) once again, without supporting in any way what he did, neither in the form or in the concept (it would be some kind of civilisational treason from myself)

P.S I just say that for avoiding remarks of guys seeing only thinks in a binary way.

[BigBaribal]

racist

the belief that people's qualities are influenced by their race and that the members of other races are not as good as the members of your own, or the resulting unfair treatment of members of other races:


I'm not questioning a race, just a religion, and why I have yet to see Muslims come out in force and condemn what Muslim extremists do!


The mufti of Marseille tries to go on this peace line, but he is very alone.

In fact, there were some very small meetings, but probably only the most clever ones seing a possible backlash coming.

[Ayura]

I do respect you without any restrictions, because as an human being you are so much more than your religious system


I'm sorry, but you obviously do not respect me because you just stated I was above my "religious system." I appreciate your unexpected kindness, but you do not even have a single clue about Islam. It would surprise me if you have met muslims, or even have knowledgable friends in Deen (you should know this word, you apparently grasped the full comprehension of Islam).

Assalam Alaikum...

[BigBaribal]

I'm not questioning a race, just a religion, and why I have yet to see Muslims come out in force and condemn what Muslim extremists do!


http://hometown.aol.com/mbeve10258/images/bookcover.jpg


This legendary hero is "Ahmed Shah Massoud." Remember that name. He was an ex-military commander who fought against the Taliban, and was blown up by two horrible suicide bombers from Al-Qaeda two days prior to 9/11. He led a resistance that fought often against Taliban.

Is this satisfying or no?


But his men brought such a mess in Kabul, that at first the Afghans were even happy to see the talibans.

[Ayura]

BUT I will never accept that islam becomes a power of any sort in MY country, in MY civilisational area (largely this includes of course the USA, of course as long as the USA stays an occidental country).


You act as if Muslims are required to take over your land. This is not the case at all. Look at pre-crusade Jerusalem. Jews and Muslims leaved in peace and flourished under one another.

[Ayura]

But his men brought such a mess in Kabul, that at first the Afghans were even happy to see the talibans.


His intention does not appease you?

[BigBaribal]

I do respect you without any restrictions, because as an human being you are so much more than your religious system


I'm sorry, but you obviously do not respect me because you just stated I was above my "religious system." I appreciate your unexpected kindness, but you do not even have a single clue about Islam. It would surprise me if you have met muslims, or even have knowledgable friends in Deen (you should know this word, you apparently grasped the full comprehension of Islam).

Assalam Alaikum...


The problem is that islam is your identity.

If you say something bad about christianity, I would be annoyed or angry, but not more, as christianity is not my whole identity.

[Ayura]

Baribal - what about the Iraqi coalition forces...they are ALL muslims. And they are fighting against insurgents. Is this still not enough?

[BigBaribal]

Baribal - what about the Iraqi coalition forces...they are ALL muslims. And they are fighting against insurgents. Is this still not enough?

I just can imagine that are iraki patriots at both sides of the front line.

In the coalition, probably guys who don't want an islamic rule over irak (without forgetting the ****s-sunnits antagonism) and take so the chance to work with the USA. On the insurgent side, perhaps also guys who think that the USA has nothing to do in Irak. Who's right, who'wrong? Probably just who who will survive this mess.

Of course, I rather wish success of the coalition side.

[Ayura]

The problem is that islam is your identity.

If you say something bad about christianity, I would be annoyed or angry, but not more, as christianity is not my whole identity.


Again, another mis-understanding. According to Islam, I am not even allowed to start a debate with you, because you are christian. Allah says in the Qu'ran (I forgot the Surah, and this isn't exactly word for word), "Do not curse the idolators idols because in return, they will surely curse me. And this is actually a very very harmful thing for a Muslim to do.

To further elaborate my point, Prophet Muhammad (Sallalaho Alaihis Wassalam = saw) said to one of this companions "Do not curse your mother or your father." And the companion was like "What? How is this possible?" (because cursing your parents was like the worst thing ever back then) and Prophet Muhammad (saw) said "By cursing other peoples parents, in-turn - surely they will curse yours." In short, what comes around goes around - that it was you who cursed your own parents by subconsiously dictating others into cursing yours.

This is the reason why a muslim should not start a debate with christians or jews or whoever. Besides, I cannot curse Prophet Jesus (saw).

[BigBaribal]

BUT I will never accept that islam becomes a power of any sort in MY country, in MY civilisational area (largely this includes of course the USA, of course as long as the USA stays an occidental country).


You act as if Muslims are required to take over your land. This is not the case at all. Look at pre-crusade Jerusalem. Jews and Muslims leaved in peace and flourished under one another.


History of the crusades is very complex. There were not the good ones on a side and the bad ones on other side.

But the muslims were not first there, they invaded the area.

For instance, a map of the area in 325 after JC, long before the arab conquerors get there:

http://img233.echo.cx/img233/1079/turquieen3255vs.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)


Also, the condition of dhimmi was not so cool: you had to pay money to be protected, you were a second-class citizen, in fact with no political rights.

Btw, an anecdot about the dhimmitud for the jews in Alexandria: the jews were obliged to live on the first floor and to have very narrow doors to be obliged to lower the head when they entered their shops. Very symbolical.

Also, in Marocco, for instance, the jews were obliged to live in ghettos during the arab rule, it's just when the french get there that they were authorized to live in every part of the cities.

[Ayura]

My history about Islam being spread throughout the country is non-existant. Thus, I have no commets to say, but insha'allah (god willing) one day I will.

[BigBaribal]

The problem is that islam is your identity.

If you say something bad about christianity, I would be annoyed or angry, but not more, as christianity is not my whole identity.


Again, another mis-understanding. According to Islam, I am not even allowed to start a debate with you, because you are christian. Allah says in the Qu'ran (I forgot the Surah, and this isn't exactly word for word), "Do not curse the idolators idols because in return, they will surely curse me. And this is actually a very very harmful thing for a Muslim to do.

To further elaborate my point, Prophet Muhammad (Sallalaho Alaihis Wassalam = saw) said to one of this companions "Do not curse your mother or your father." And the companion was like "What? How is this possible?" (because cursing your parents was like the worst thing ever back then) and Prophet Muhammad (saw) said "By cursing other peoples parents, in-turn - surely they will curse yours." In short, what comes around goes around - that it was you who cursed your own parents by subconsiously dictating others into cursing yours.

This is the reason why a muslim should not start a debate with christians or jews or whoever. Besides, I cannot curse Prophet Jesus (saw).


I know it perfecty that a true muslim has not the right to discuss with a kafr. From my side, I've no fear to discuss of christianism. But in a way, it's logic, "islam" means litterally "submission". To say it clear, I do prefer the christian way "truth will set you free".

Btw, according to the Christian faith, Jesus was not a prophet, he was God, son of God and fully human too. Of course, the mysteries of the Trinity and of the Incarnation are mysteries for christians too ;)

[Ayura]

I know quite abit about Christianity and I am fully aware of the Trinity :)


Shalom Hakum (as Jesus [saw] would say ;))

[Nikitaras]

Shariah police? More like the cops are investigating a hate crime.


I believed there was no more blasphemy crime in modern countries.

For instance, you can go to my country to burn a bible and you won't risk anything.

Can I go to your country and burn a bible, throw it on a church's steps and smear ****e on the door?

How do you feel about burning crosses infront of Black Churches or waving a Nazi flag in front of a synagogue while you wipe your bum with the Torah scrolls?

[BigBaribal]

Shariah police? More like the cops are investigating a hate crime.


I believed there was no more blasphemy crime in modern countries.

For instance, you can go to my country to burn a bible and you won't risk anything.

Can I go to your country and burn a bible, throw it on a church's steps and smear ****e on the door?

How do you feel about burning crosses infront of Black Churches or waving a Nazi flag in front of a synagogue while you wipe your bum with the Torah scrolls?


Just make the difference between a retard in Nashville and this:



Muslim books of hate sold
Liam Houlihan, religious affairs reporter
24jun05

LITERATURE filled with hatred of Christians, Jews and non-Muslims is being sold at a mosque near a Melbourne home raided by ASIO.





Books sold at the store attached to the Brunswick mosque tell Muslims they should "hate and take as enemies" non-Muslims, reject Jews and Christians, and learn to hate in order to properly love Allah.

The texts say Muslims should learn military tactics and suggest that if a person speaks ill of Islam it is acceptable to kill them.

They urge Muslims to strike back against "the barbaric onslaught from their enemies -- the Jews, Christians, atheists, secularists and others". .......


http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,15714027%5E661,00.html


P.S. Btw, the usual guilt tricks are not only boring, but less and less effecient, even on "mainstream" guys.

[mcworldorjihad]

If you like, but I would say you've answered your own questions well enough below, what I've focused on has/had nothing to do with the questions you asked.

I don’t really understand these comments, but It’s up to you mate, you have your own reasons for not making your views clear.


But not to the point where Christians call Jihads on infidels, what about Salman Rushdie, it sucked to be him for speaking out against Islam!

Are you not familiar with the situation in Northern Ireland? Neighbour murdering neighbour for the last 30 years because of their religion. It’s the same in Glasgow, with the sectarian rivalry between the fans of Rangers and Celtic. Peter Hain was on Newsnight the other day going on about how he has to drive around in a convey of bullet proof cars and armed police because of the possible threat over him. Religion, race, nation - it’s what almost all conflicts are about!

What about all the innocent civilians murder in their thousands by the western jihad that is perpetuated by fanatical leader Bush?

I really don’t understand your point. I’ve already accepted that there are fanatical extremist Muslim in England, of course there are. But as pointed out to you before, it is your problem that you believe this small minority is representative of the Muslim community, or the Islam faith. Tell me this, how much jihad has actually happened in the UK? The only ****ing religious war being perpetuated at the moment in this country is by reactionary, clueless right-wingers feeling threatened by someone of a different faith.


Not quite sure What you're looking for, but when you have young Muslims saying this it makes you wonder how many others feel the same way?

Well you make some reference to Bradford and moderate Muslim groups not being involved, I can only take this as a reference to the riots in Oldham. I’d like to know why you think the Asian community were at fault.

I’m not Muslim pal, I’m not religious at all. This country has a fine tradition of anti-fascism going back before Cable Street. Perhaps this site is of interest: http://www.redaction.org


I'm rascist because of my ideas on Islam, Islam is the only faith that I have questioned because of their silence towards extremists?

This does not make me rascist, lightweight!

I was merely quoting the terminology you originally used. What possible research have you done into Muslim community groups in the UK?

[Clearday-TRForce]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d9/350px-Hitt_Egypt_Perseus.png

The Hittite Empire at the height of its power (red), bordering on the Egyptian Empire (green)




BigBaribal, could you explain us Hit****,Phrygians,Cimmerians, Lydians, Persians, Celts, Tabals, Meshechs...religions? does it sense to mention "Anatolia" as christian lands?


Hatti is the reconstructed ancient name of a region in Anatolia inhabited by the Hattians between the 3rd and 2nd millennia BCE, and later by the Hittites, who were at the height of their power ca 1400 BC–1200 BC. The capital city of both peoples was Hattusa (modern Bogazköy) in what is now central-northern Turkey. The term is derived from the Assyrian designation of "Hatti-Land" for the areas to the west of the Euphrates.
Before 2000 BC a settlement of the apparently indigenous Hatti people was established on sites that had been occupied even earlier. In the 19th and 18th centuries BC, merchants from Ashur in Assyria established a trading post here, setting up in their own separate quarter of the city...

[BigBaribal]

I know perfectly that the history of the current Turkey is very complex, especially because many different nomadic peoples travelled in the area (I'm currently reading books about the Sarmates who were to be found from Minor Asia to Britain as mercenaries for the roman troops!)

But for a long time, the current Turkey (like the whole southern mediterranean area: the copt Egypt, the Christian "Algeria" with Saint-Augustin etc... ) was a christian area: for instance when St Paul wrote his letters to the Gallats, he wrote to a population from a celtic ascent; St-Nicolas was a bishop in the region too. And no need to mention the thousand of troglodyt churches in Capadocce.



A good resume here:

http://www.allaboutturkey.com/anatolia.htm

And an interesting article showing that the turkish civilisational origin looks rather more to the east towards central Asia:

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=7782



Btw, no problem with the fact that there are turks in Turkey.

Because you simply won the civilisational competition there, but this is not a reason to say you were always there ;)


I stop here before the tsunami of Turkish buiding pics
:lol:

[Clearday-TRForce]

I stop here before the tsunami of Turkish buiding pics


killed me... rofl
what can I say for your post, mostly true.
Bigbaribal, what can you say about TROY? there s a humour here about Ataturk's statement for Troy after Gallipoli War..."We have taken the revenge of HECTOR,TROY". How does it smell for you? can it be possible?

[Clearday-TRForce]

Meanwhile,

PALEOLITHIC AGE - Early Stone Age ( 600000 - 10000 B.C.)
MESOLITHIC AGE - Mid Stone Age ( 10000 - 8500 B.C.)
NEOLITHIC AGE - Late Stone Age ( 8500 - 5000 B.C.)
CALCOLITHIC AGE - Copper Age ( 5000 - 3000 B.C.)
BRONZE AGE ( 3000 - 2000 B.C.)
HATTI CIVILIZATION ( 2500 - 2000 B.C.)
TROY-II SETTLEMENT ( 2500 - 2000 B.C.)
HATTI and HITTITE PRINCIPALITIES PERIOD ( 2000 - 1750 B.C.)
GREAT HITTITE KINGDOM ( 1750 - 1200 B.C.)
HURRI CIVILIZATION
TROY-VI CIVILIZATION ( 1800 - 1275 B.C.)
AEGEAN MIGRATION AND INVASION FROM BALKANS ( 1200 B.C.)
THE ANATOLIAN PRINCIPALITIES DURING THE IRON AGE ( 1200 - 700 B.C.)
URARTU CIVILIZATION ( 900 - 600 B.C.)
THE CIVILIZATION OF PHRYGIA ( 750 - 300 B.C.)
LYDIA, CARIA and LYCIA CIVILIZATIONS ( 700 - 300 B.C.)
ION CIVILIZATION ( 1050 - 300 B.C.)
PERSIAN CONQUEST


I havent seen any Christians above in TURKEY...Have you seen? So how can you bring up "mostly Christian Turkey history"? does it true? sure not...

[Ayura]

Brother - Your style of written English is just soo funny rofl rofl rofl It has me in tears hahaha...sorry :oops: :oops:

[achilles]

Brother - Your style of written English is just soo funny rofl rofl rofl It has me in tears hahaha...sorry :oops: :oops:

:lol: i could claim the same about the content as well :lol:

[achilles]

Bigbaribal, what can you say about TROY? there s a humour here about Ataturk's statement for Troy after Gallipoli War..."We have taken the revenge of HECTOR,TROY". How does it smell for you? can it be possible?

Just a small comment kardas dont mind me :lol:

The first historical references to the Turks appear in Chinese records of about 200 B.C

Turks came into Asia Minor in 1071 AD after the victory of Malazgirt by the Seljucks.
http://www.allaboutturkey.com/origin.htm

The Trojan War is believed to have taken place around the 12th or 13th century B.C. There is a huge gap here, so yep...Kemal was indeed joking, unless your Mongolian ancestors had discovered time travel 3000 years ago. :lol:

That was just my 2 cents, so please continue your discussion gentlemen...

[Geezah]

If you like, but I would say you've answered your own questions well enough below, what I've focused on has/had nothing to do with the questions you asked.

I don’t really understand these comments, but It’s up to you mate, you have your own reasons for not making your views clear.

And there was me thinking I was quite clear, what didn't you understand about this?


We have Muslim extremists that are a problem and I do not see the Muslim community taking a stand against it, when was the last time we saw the Muslims protesting against these extremists that do what they do because Allah is Great?




But not to the point where Christians call Jihads on infidels, what about Salman Rushdie, it sucked to be him for speaking out against Islam!

Are you not familiar with the situation in Northern Ireland? Neighbour murdering neighbour for the last 30 years because of their religion. It’s the same in Glasgow, with the sectarian rivalry between the fans of Rangers and Celtic. Peter Hain was on Newsnight the other day going on about how he has to drive around in a convey of bullet proof cars and armed police because of the possible threat over him. Religion, race, nation - it’s what almost all conflicts are about!

Are you sure, it's a bit deeper than that, religion is only scraping the surface of the problem out there!



What about all the innocent civilians murder in their thousands by the western jihad that is perpetuated by fanatical leader Bush?

Wow.........Earth to Major Tom, you're going off on you're own now!



I really don’t understand your point. I’ve already accepted that there are fanatical extremist Muslim in England, of course there are. But as pointed out to you before, it is your problem that you believe this small minority is representative of the Muslim community, or the Islam faith. Tell me this, how much jihad has actually happened in the UK? The only f*** religious war being perpetuated at the moment in this country is by reactionary, clueless right-wingers feeling threatened by someone of a different faith.

Maybe you just didn't get this?


We have Muslim extremists that are a problem and I do not see the Muslim community taking a stand against it, when was the last time we saw the Muslims protesting against these extremists that do what they do because Allah is Great?




Not quite sure What you're looking for, but when you have young Muslims saying this it makes you wonder how many others feel the same way?

Well you make some reference to Bradford and moderate Muslim groups not being involved, I can only take this as a reference to the riots in Oldham. I’d like to know why you think the Asian community were at fault.

Again you missed this!


We have Muslim extremists that are a problem and I do not see the Muslim community taking a stand against it, when was the last time we saw the Muslims protesting against these extremists that do what they do because Allah is Great?



I’m not Muslim pal, I’m not religious at all. This country has a fine tradition of anti-fascism going back before Cable Street. Perhaps this site is of interest: http://www.redaction.org

I doubt it very much!



I'm rascist because of my ideas on Islam, Islam is the only faith that I have questioned because of their silence towards extremists?

This does not make me rascist, lightweight!

I was merely quoting the terminology you originally used. What possible research have you done into Muslim community groups in the UK?

Which you agreed with, lightweight!


Gyspum Fanatic was not painting you as a racist, he has no need to. From your comments it's clear you do an adequate job yourself.

Lightweight!

[mcworldorjihad]

And there was me thinking I was quite clear, what didn't you understand about this?

I’m unclear because of your misuse of punctuation (using a comma, and not finishing the sentence), your claim that I answer my own questions asking you about your views on Islamic communities, and your admission that you haven’t focussed on any of my questions. Bafferling.

In regards to your quote, the debate has moved on. Your comments have been noted and subsequent questions from myself and another member have questioned your views. You have not answered. Why should the Muslim community, that is large and diverse, be responsible for solely condemning terrorism?

Secondly, you change the goal posts. You stand by a fascist’s argument that Islam is a “wicked, vicious faith” then you argue that you just don’t really trust moderate Muslims.


Are you sure, it's a bit deeper than that, religion is only scraping the surface of the problem out there!

It depends in what depth you wish to debate the conflict on. Religion is the age old question that separates the two (three?) communities out there. It is paramount to cultural identity between Unionists and Loyalists, and Republican Nationalists, therefore it plays a major part in the nationalist class war that is going on over there.

On a purely simplistic lethal religious hatred has been the motivation for a good number of murders, mainly committed by loyalist paramilitaries. The story of the Lenny Murphy and the Shankhill Butchers being a prime example.


Wow.........Earth to Major Tom, you're going off on you're own now!

Clearly I left you behind a long time ago. The east has fanatical terrorists who kill innocent civilians in pursuit of their own agenda and the west has fanatical terrorists who kill innocent civilians in pursuit of their own agenda. One is called Jihad, one is called the War against terror; or to use it’s acronym: ****.


Maybe you just didn't get this?

I did get that, and this debate is going around and around in circles because you are incapable on elaborating on your simplistic reactionary views. Myself, and other members of this board, have been asking you questions on your views, which you have failed to answer. Repeating your opinion and asserting that you are right doesn’t really take us anywhere. You have been asked why members of the Muslim community should have to speak out, you have been directed to website where Muslims are speaking out, you have been shown examples of Muslims who “campaign” against Islamic terror, you have been asked what your knowledge of Muslim communities in the UK is based on etc. and you have remained silent on all this.

At the end of the day, if you wish to sit on the internet, and level insults at someone you have never met, and may I add seem to have no coherent reason to, then fair enough; do it. But please, don’t waste my time, and the other respectable members of this board who wish to learn, teach, and share knowledge. Please leave the political discussion section of the website to those actually capable of indulging in it.

Thanks,

Bob

[Ayura]

owned...

[mcworldorjihad]

Not to be drawn into a debate on Northern Ireland, i'll give another example of religious intolerance in the UK; Christian Voice. A right-wing, intolerant group of Christians, I think numbering 2000-3000 (I could be wrong) who are against homo******ity, hold ruckus demonstrations against "blasphemy" and have been linked to death threats, and driving people from their homes. Should the largely, liberal and tolerant Christian community in the UK be held accountable for the actions of these extremists?

I find it hiliarious that moderate Muslims are being lumped together with the extremists, when moderate Muslim groups, such as the Muslim Council of Britian have suffered disruption and harrasment from extremist muslims because of their politics!


Bob

[Nikitaras]

Shariah police? More like the cops are investigating a hate crime.


I believed there was no more blasphemy crime in modern countries.

For instance, you can go to my country to burn a bible and you won't risk anything.

Can I go to your country and burn a bible, throw it on a church's steps and smear ****e on the door?

How do you feel about burning crosses infront of Black Churches or waving a Nazi flag in front of a synagogue while you wipe your bum with the Torah scrolls?


Just make the difference between a retard in Nashville and this:



Muslim books of hate sold
Liam Houlihan, religious affairs reporter
24jun05

LITERATURE filled with hatred of Christians, Jews and non-Muslims is being sold at a mosque near a Melbourne home raided by ASIO.





Books sold at the store attached to the Brunswick mosque tell Muslims they should "hate and take as enemies" non-Muslims, reject Jews and Christians, and learn to hate in order to properly love Allah.

The texts say Muslims should learn military tactics and suggest that if a person speaks ill of Islam it is acceptable to kill them.

They urge Muslims to strike back against "the barbaric onslaught from their enemies -- the Jews, Christians, atheists, secularists and others". .......


http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,15714027%5E661,00.html


P.S. Btw, the usual guilt tricks are not only boring, but less and less effecient, even on "mainstream" guys.

This is the same type of crap from the "Christian" side of the aisle:
http://amprom.org/literatu.htm

The point is that writing rubbish, whether it be anti Islamic, Jewish, Christian, et al. is alot different from commiting crimes which target a certain ethinic or religious group, even if it is commited by a retard in Nashville.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Ayura,ohh just seen


Brother, I m glad to see u happy...laughing fits on you... :lol: furthermore, AchillesBandwogener has quickly contributed you,no suprise... :lol:

[BigBaribal]

You stand by a fascist’s argument that Islam is a “wicked, vicious faith”

Not a good idea to use "fascist" and "islam" in the same sentence, for debating in a comfortable way.

http://img232.echo.cx/img232/9260/handschar0wp2jr.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/03/mein-kampf-in-english-on-radio-islam.html




Clearly I left you behind a long time ago. The east has fanatical terrorists who kill innocent civilians in pursuit of their own agenda and the west has fanatical terrorists who kill innocent civilians in pursuit of their own agenda. One is called Jihad, one is called the War against terror; or to use it’s acronym: ****.

Btw, the "War against terror" concept is not representative of the West, as this concept was elaborated in a very small lobbying circle turning around the White House. And these lobbyists were for sure not really thinking of the West, when they invented this concept.


Also, about muslims and the "gay" thematic:

http://img286.echo.cx/img286/9245/050513muslimsagainstgays10yp.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://img286.echo.cx/img286/1161/050513muslimsagainstgays23lg.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)




Window Media Editorial Director Chris Crain, who was severely beaten in a hate crime on Queens Day in Amsterdam by a group of Moroccan assailants, speaks to host Jeroen Pauw on the news program Nova on the Netherlands' Channel 3 in these photos, provided to Towleroad by music blogger Arjan, who is spending time there this week. Crain was walking hand-in-hand with his boyfriend when a man spat in his face. When Crain confronted the man, who then said something about "****ing fags", he was jumped by a group of five others Crain described as Moroccan.

Crain2The bashing has sent Amsterdam, which depends heavily on revenue it generates by promising itself as the world's most gay-friendly destination, into a crisis. Amsterdam's Mayor Job Cohen, Arjan reports, promised to track down Crain's attackers and is intent that the incident not damage the city's reputation as one of the most progressive in Europe (or cause it to lost valuable 'pink' tourist dollars to alternate gay favorites Paris and Barcelona). Says Arjan, "The media and the people of the Netherlands are embarrassed and disgusted by this bloody act of aggression."

There has also been much discussion of the fact that the attackers were Moroccan, and the culture wars that have erupted in that city, which Crain himself discusses here. In any case, Amsterdam is still probably safer for gays than other major cities, though Expatica, a news source for expats in the Netherlands, reports that "a survey by gay lobby group COC has found that one in three gays no longer dare to walk hand-in-hand in the city centre."

http://towleroad.typepad.com/towleroad/2005/05/



AMSTERDAM — The bashing of a prominent American gay has sparked international controversy and is threatening the 'pink' tourist industry in Amsterdam.

Merijn Henfling, editor-in-chief of gay youth magazine 'Expreszo', said the incident was lethal for the image of Amsterdam as a gay capital, newspaper 'Het Parool' reported on Monday.

Chris Crain, the chief editor of the influential gay magazine 'Washington Blade', was assaulted on Queen's Day in Amsterdam. He claims the people who assaulted him were Moroccans.

As
he was walking to his hotel with a friend on 30 April, one of his attackers spat in Crain's face. "The man, in his 20s, had Moroccan looks and spoke with a heavy accent as he mumbled about '****ing fags'," he said.

According to the editor of the Dutch 'Gay Krant', Henk Krol, the story on the Blade's website has hit the US like a bomb, newspaper 'Parool' reported.

The 'Gay Advocate', one of the most important gay magazines in the US, has published Crain's story in full.

More than 40 reactions from shocked readers have since been sent to the Gay Krant in the Netherlands.

Krol has contacted Crain, who had earlier praised Amsterdam as the safest place for gays in the world. "I have explained to him that presently it is safer in the countryside for homo******s than in the large Dutch cities," Krol said.

A survey by gay lobby group COC has found that one in three gays no longer dare to walk hand-in-hand in the city centre.

Gay Business Amsterdam spokesman Siep de Haan said the Dutch capital is losing its gay tourism edge in favour of Barcelona and Paris, due to issues of tolerance.

But Atef Salib, an official with the foundation Habibi Ana, a gay café for immigrants in the city centre, has not noticed rising aggression. "You have good and bad people, but it is known that homo******ity is difficult to harmonise with the Arab mentality."

The director of the Lesbian, Gay, Bi****** and Transgender Rights Project at Human Rights Watch, Scott Long, believes the attack against Crain might be as much about current tensions over immigration as it is about homophobia, the website 'gay.com' reported.

There are almost a million Muslims living in the Netherlands, many of whom are immigrants from Morocco and Turkey.

Amid a culture clash with the predominantly Christian ethnic Dutch, immigrant Muslims have been reported to view homo******ity with disdain.

This view and differences over the treatment of women, concerns of immigrant crime and issues of integration have sparked a backlash against immigration from ethnic Dutch.

"'There's still an extraordinary degree of racism in Dutch society. Gays often become the victims of this when immigrants retaliate for the inequities that they have to suffer," Long said.

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=19&story_id=19890&name=Gay+capital+risks+losingreputation+after+bashing+