Real Terrosism [Made in Israel--Clips]...

[aFgHaNibOi]

You be the judge... :|

Clip One: Ideal Terrorism [Made in Israel] 1 (http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/media.store/00.real.terrorism.made.in.israel/ideal.terrorism.1.rm)

Clip Two: Ideal Terrorism 2 [Short] (http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/media.store/00.real.terrorism.made.in.israel/real.terrorists.in.arabic.rm)

[Macs.]

You be the judge... :|

Clip One: Ideal Terrorism [Made in Israel] 1 (http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/media.store/00.real.terrorism.made.in.israel/ideal.terrorism.1.rm)

Clip Two: Ideal Terrorism 2 [Short] (http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/media.store/00.real.terrorism.made.in.israel/real.terrorists.in.arabic.rm)



Well, this are clips for suicide bomber recruitment. It's propaganda.

Note: In the second clip, in the second scene when you see this kid with his father behind a wall: That child was killed by a palestine gunmen.

[aFgHaNibOi]

A few more...

Clip Three: Ideal Terrorism 3 (http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/media.store/00.videos.from.al-manar.showing.zionist.terrorism/Ideal.Terrorism.2.mpg)

Clip Four: Ideal Terrorism 4 (http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/media.store/00.videos.from.al-manar.showing.zionist.terrorism/Ideal.Terrorism.3.mpg)

Clip Five: Ideal Terrorism 5 (http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/media.store/00.videos.from.al-manar.showing.zionist.terrorism/Ideal.Terrorism.4.mpg)

Palestinian Bride (http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/media.store/00.videos.from.al-manar.showing.zionist.terrorism/Palestines.Bride.mpg)

Peace the American Way (http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/media.store/00.videos.from.al-manar.showing.zionist.terrorism/Peace.The.American.Way.mpg)

Terrorists 1 (http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/media.store/00.videos.from.al-manar.showing.zionist.terrorism/Terrorists.1.mpg)

Terrorists 2 (http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/media.store/00.videos.from.al-manar.showing.zionist.terrorism/Terrorists.2.mpg)

The Message of Truth (http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/media.store/00.videos.from.al-manar.showing.zionist.terrorism/The.Message.Of.Truth.mpg)

The True Face of Zionists (http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/media.store/00.videos.from.al-manar.showing.zionist.terrorism/The.True.Face.Of.Zionist.mpg)

Who Committed the Murder (http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/media.store/00.videos.from.al-manar.showing.zionist.terrorism/Who.Committed.The.Murder.mpg)

Enjoy. p-)

[aFgHaNibOi]

You be the judge... :|

Clip One: Ideal Terrorism [Made in Israel] 1 (http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/media.store/00.real.terrorism.made.in.israel/ideal.terrorism.1.rm)

Clip Two: Ideal Terrorism 2 [Short] (http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/media.store/00.real.terrorism.made.in.israel/real.terrorists.in.arabic.rm)



Well, this are clips for suicide bomber recruitment. It's propaganda.

Note: In the second clip, in the second scene when you see this kid with his father behind a wall: That child was killed by a palestine gunmen.

I did this in reply to another clip. p-)

[UoUo]

The mother of propoganda....

So that what they feed you to become such a antizionist and antiisraeli sense they you born ?


BTW : i whould like to see the all bunch of people (including one) that jump on me when i post a few videos last week.

[Whistler]

Some sweet action in those clips. I especially like the parts with the tanks. Go IDF!

[HappyCat]

some of those videos are the biggest pieces of ****ty racist propaganda I have ever seen. thats all I can say after watching a few of those videos.

[mustamato]

Propaganda my aSSssSssSSsSSs. Those things in the clips DID happen didn´t they? It´s not like they were made up in some Hollywood studio. Sure they only show some certain things from the palestinian (or should I say most of the worlds) point of view. But it is quite difficult to just ignore the fact that Israeli soldiers in their uniforms and all were breaking the arms of civilians and all that

It´s disgusting. But they get away with their state-terrorism because they are jews.

[Whistler]

Hey happycat, your from Ottawa?

Me too! :D That makes 3 of us on this forum so far...

[UoUo]

Propaganda my aSSssSssSSsSSs. Those things in the clips DID happen didn´t they? It´s not like they were made up in some Hollywood studio. Sure they only show some certain things from the palestinian (or should I say most of the worlds) point of view. But it is quite difficult to just ignore the fact that Israeli soldiers in their uniforms and all were breaking the arms of civilians and all that

It´s disgusting. But they get away with their state-terrorism because they are jews.

Most the deads in the movie weren't killed by israel....you see all the bodies in the street... ? that did in lebanon...deacdes ago by christin people...

The boy and the son that died in there killed by palstinians gunman....and what do you think ? i cannot find pic's that look exatctly the same from iraq ?


BTW : where are you from ?

[Whistler]

Propaganda my aSSssSssSSsSSs. Those things in the clips DID happen didn´t they? It´s not like they were made up in some Hollywood studio. Sure they only show some certain things from the palestinian (or should I say most of the worlds) point of view. But it is quite difficult to just ignore the fact that Israeli soldiers in their uniforms and all were breaking the arms of civilians and all that

It´s disgusting. But they get away with their state-terrorism because they are jews.

What if I make a video full of footage of the 1991 LA riots showing the beatings and fill it with a bunch of anti-black sentiment.

Sure, the events would be real, but the video would still be racist propoganda.

[One?]

The mother of propoganda....

So that what they feed you to become such a antizionist and antiisraeli sense they you born ?


BTW : i whould like to see the all bunch of people (including one) that jump on me when i post a few videos last week.

This website is to show pictures and not spread a message. (or so i understand). Posting propaganda movies is just nonsense.

And the videos show the other side of the IDF wich you wont see on CNN and any other news station.

Are they propaganda? Could be. But is it a lie? Did they dress up as IDF soldeirs and do the acts there were done in the movies? NO!


Again propaganda movies shouldn't be on this site IMO.

Edit:

THAKN YOU for posting this video.

Clip Two: Ideal Terrorism 2 [Short]

when i said settlers burnt down a holy site you started calling me a Bull****ter. Well this movie shows them burning it down and jumping in excitement

Clip Three: Ideal Terrorism 3

IDF soldeirs breaking the hands of palestinians. (couldnt find the video but I guess someone did).

[UoUo]

They take movie from lebanon..connect them with pasl'..

for exsmple..they took video of israeli canons fire...and then they show you pal' area...this ****in bull****...the first video taken from lebanon...and the seccend from pal'...


And again "sbra vshtila" is made by chiristin....not by IDF.

[One?]

They take movie from lebanon..connect them with pasl'..

for exsmple..they took video of israeli canons fire...and then they show you pal' area...this f*** bull****...the first video taken from lebanon...and the seccend from pal'...


And again "sbra vshtila" is made by chiristin....not by IDF.

well if they had footage of tanks firing in pal. then they would put that. But I guess they didn't find any at the time.



And again "sbra vshtila" is made by chiristin....not by IDF.

The idf sarrounded the camp. The IDF supplied the Falangist with weapons. The IDF was told by fleeing palestinians of what was going on in there. So according to the geneva convention as an occupying force the IDF was supposed to stop the massacre, they werent supposed to make it easy.

Why was sharon relieved of his duties (or quit) as a defence minister.

[usa320]

It´s disgusting. But they get away with their state-terrorism because they are jews.


At least they have the balls to put their location in their profile other than "Northern Europe"

[mustamato]

It´s disgusting. But they get away with their state-terrorism because they are jews.


At least they have the balls to put their location in their profile other than "Northern Europe"

Just as if you would know what it was if I wrote Skåne anyway.

[Vance]

It´s disgusting. But they get away with their state-terrorism because they are jews.


At least they have the balls to put their location in their profile other than "Northern Europe"

Just as if you would know what it was if I wrote Skåne anyway.
The lower part of Sweden.

[mustamato]

It´s disgusting. But they get away with their state-terrorism because they are jews.


At least they have the balls to put their location in their profile other than "Northern Europe"

Just as if you would know what it was if I wrote Skåne anyway.
The lower part of Sweden.

Just becuase of me and Mr Google you know that now. Say thank you. :)

[non-zero possibility]

Propoganda- everyone good and bad uses it
so no one should be pointing the finger, both Israel and The Palistinians have rights and have perceptions on what is theirs and what is the others. We can point fingers every day but none of us are going to change this, Unless those who talk go fight, A good bunch of you have and your countries thank you, but no one needs to carry that animosity here. Bicker all you want but I think its useless.

Do any of you think you can be convinced to a conclusion outside of your current. So why do either of these sides think they can convince the other?

[radon]

I disagree. Those videos are good for this site imo.

[non-zero possibility]

Thats not what I am saying. I think that throwing insults about propaganda is useless because it dosent take us anywear, the display of war and what comes with it is something every millitary enthusiast should be aware of, I agree those videos are valid, this argument over whos doing propaganda though is another thing.

[uri]

Clip Three: Ideal Terrorism 3

IDF soldeirs breaking the hands of palestinians. (couldnt find the video but I guess someone did).

You are right on this last one, not all of IDF soldiers are angels, we do
have our bad ones. but, we took them and put them in military prison! for
hurting pals! what the PA doeas to their "bad" ones? gives them money!

we criticize our wild thorns, don't encourage them like PA, that why we
have really low level of this sh*t, and thats why PA don't.

you are a big boy, figure it out by your self...

[podkus]

You be the judge... :|

Clip One: Ideal Terrorism [Made in Israel] 1 (http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/media.store/00.real.terrorism.made.in.israel/ideal.terrorism.1.rm)

Clip Two: Ideal Terrorism 2 [Short] (http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/media.store/00.real.terrorism.made.in.israel/real.terrorists.in.arabic.rm)



Propaganda... :|

[ShotOver]

A palestinian with broken hands, cant pull the pin out of a grenade... har har har har.

Yeah, havnt seen the videos yet, which ones are the "best" ?

[Javehn]

Hell, what is going on here ?

About the validity of those movies , we can discust hours and hours and hours ( let me just say , that's its not "cool" to mix different stuff from Lebanon , Palestine and god knows what else . May the wild dog eat my balls , if we even once used any kind of Artyllery on "territories" ) . Here i can show you pics , where you can see "atrocities and genocide made by U.S. and britain troops in Iraq" . The pictures are very valid , and also very out of context. Nor the British , nor U.S. troops are barbarians and animals .
( http://www.islamicdigest.org/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=2 - "Occupied Iraq "
http://www.islamicdigest.org/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=4 - "occupied Afganistan" ) . So what ?

Here is an article about British troops refusing to fight in Iraq . http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,926135,00.html So what ?
And here is an article of British troops beating the **** out of Iraqi prissoners , and killing them - http://www.guardian.co.uk/military/story/0,11816,970179,00.html So what ?

All lies ?? No , offcorse not . Out of context ? Yes , very much .

I can start telling you now for hours stories how the soldiers treated Palestinian property and people . The fact is : Find one Palestinian fighter , that his arguement will be beyond : "Those mother ****ers , they raped my wife , killed my father , and blow up my naighbour house. I gonna kill the ****ers .I hate all of those infidel ****s" .

On this forum only , you have several people that served in IDF , more or less intelegent and willing to share the facts beyond -"i gonna kill all of those bitches , because they are ****ers" .

Personally , i myself sick of this debate , there is enough **** going on in the world as it is , except us . But sence we have accused on the most strangest things ever , i must reply on that . You don't know , how it feels to return from a mission , to click on the TV , and to find out you just became War Criminal on BBC .

[Falco]

All lies ?? No , offcorse not . Out of context ? Yes , very much .


The essence of propaganda :|

[uri]

You don't know , how it feels to return from a mission , to click on the TV , and to find out you just became War Criminal on BBC .

sad, but true...
:|

[Loco]

And again "sbra vshtila" is made by chiristin....not by IDF.
Yes and not. Chabra and Shatila massacre was commited by christian militias, this militias of Gemayel were funded and equipped by IDF, and again, these camps were surrounded by IDF troops in that moment and didn´t move a single finger.
I read the polemic days ago regarding some videos posted by an israeli member, and I didn´t understand the polemic in that moment. This is a graphic oriented site, then I support members to post all video-graphic documents they can find of any conflict in the earth, I think we aren´t retarded people, so we can see them. Other than that is comentaries and "explanations" about videos, one more again, we aren´t retarded and I don´t want my mind under the tutelage of master in anyway, my judgments only concern me.
Often, when I read the comments under the photos, it seems to me that the one that put them only manages to become discredited and provokes in me a reaction opposite to the one that pretended himself.
On the other hand, in this moment I only saw the first video, and so much if it´s propaganda or not, the soundtrack music with this woman's voice seems to me being melodramatic, I don´t like, it´s my personal taste, but I believe that if I was doing the propaganda I wouldn´t add details of bad taste that underline the evident thing.

[el_kab0ng]

you guys ARE aware that by visiting those links, you are sending traffic to what is considered a "monitored site" by the US government.

No sense sending traffic to a site run by a bunch of thugs regardless.

:slap:

[One?]

out of context LOL

ya just blame it on that. So why get his banged on the wall until it started bleeding? Why did they break their hands? Oh wait they werent told to do so riiiiight. Go check the 88 or 87 intifada in details and see who told them to break palestinian arms.


Call whatever you want its true. Telling me they went to prison or what not I dont care, because no one knows if they did indeed serve time.


As for the PA, those who assasinated the israeli minister were handed over and are being moniutered by US or british guards.

[EvanL]

Hey happycat, your from Ottawa?

Me too! :D That makes 3 of us on this forum so far...
Ottawa boy right here as well.

[soldierandy]

Israeli citizens have suffered far too long from these scum without the equivalent retaliation. A few indiscretions although not condoned are understandable.

[non-zero possibility]

it seems to imply you propose you become as low as the terrorists?
Soldierandy-- that makes you no better than the "scum" you describe palistinians as... I hate terrorism, and think its wrong, but its also wrong to hate Palistinians because of a select few, thats like saying everyone in america is all for the kkk or that the british nazi party represents the whole country of Britan, I dont think thats true...

[HappyCat]

Hey happycat, your from Ottawa?

Me too! :D That makes 3 of us on this forum so far...
Ottawa boy right here as well.

who here is from ottawa?
me
wolfe117 or something
evanLloyd
and the other guy forgot his name

this is hugely off topic, but where in ottawa are you guys?
sorry for being off topic

[One?]

Israeli citizens have suffered far too long from these scum without the equivalent retaliation. A few indiscretions although not condoned are understandable.

hypocracy at its best.


Lets see.


Israeli beats a palestenian and breaks his hand = retaliation

Palestinian sniping and Idf soldeir = Terrorism


oh by the way your scum for thinking like that.

[Salty Dog]

www.islamicdigest.net...... rofl is that like readers digest for muslims?

[UoUo]

Israeli citizens have suffered far too long from these scum without the equivalent retaliation. A few indiscretions although not condoned are understandable.

hypocracy at its best.


Lets see.


Israeli beats a palestenian and breaks his hand = retaliation

Palestinian sniping and Idf soldeir = Terrorism


oh by the way your scum for thinking like that.

No..it's go like this :

Israeli beats a palestenian and breaks his hand = Act of few stupaids soldairs.

Palestinian bomb himself in a bus full of children = terror.

[mustamato]

http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/media.store/00.swedish.songs.for.palestine/Palestina%2C%20Palestine%2C%20Falastini.mp3

Rap :)

[UoUo]

BTW : You people ever asked yourself why israel need to suply them water ? power ? phones ?

Why ? why Egept can't ? they are they brothers no ?

[EvanL]

BTW : You people ever asked yourself why israel need to suply them water ? power ? phones ?

Why ? why Egept can't ? they are they brothers no ?
I dont disagree with that but i have never heard of that before. mind providing some articles or something to back that up?

[UoUo]

BTW : You people ever asked yourself why israel need to suply them water ? power ? phones ?

Why ? why Egept can't ? they are they brothers no ?
I dont disagree with that but i have never heard of that before. mind providing some articles or something to back that up?

I don't no how to prove it...but trust me...i am sure in 100%..israel supply them water..power...and phones...mayba..myabe phone not...but in 100% we supply them water.

I will try to prove it later.

[EvanL]

BTW : You people ever asked yourself why israel need to suply them water ? power ? phones ?

Why ? why Egept can't ? they are they brothers no ?
I dont disagree with that but i have never heard of that before. mind providing some articles or something to back that up?

I don't no how to prove it...but trust me...i am sure in 100%..israel supply them water..power...and phones...mayba..myabe phone not...but in 100% we supply them water.

I will try to prove it later.
Dont try to prove it. I just wanna see some articles about it.

[One?]

BTW : You people ever asked yourself why israel need to suply them water ? power ? phones ?

Why ? why Egept can't ? they are they brothers no ?
I dont disagree with that but i have never heard of that before. mind providing some articles or something to back that up?

I don't no how to prove it...but trust me...i am sure in 100%..israel supply them water..power...and phones...mayba..myabe phone not...but in 100% we supply them water.

I will try to prove it later.

yup thats why when the Aqsa mosque almost got burnt down, the city of jurasalem mysteriosly cut the water off.

[UoUo]

BTW : You people ever asked yourself why israel need to suply them water ? power ? phones ?

Why ? why Egept can't ? they are they brothers no ?
I dont disagree with that but i have never heard of that before. mind providing some articles or something to back that up?

I don't no how to prove it...but trust me...i am sure in 100%..israel supply them water..power...and phones...mayba..myabe phone not...but in 100% we supply them water.

I will try to prove it later.

yup thats why when the Aqsa mosque almost got burnt down, the city of jurasalem mysteriosly cut the water off.

:roll: :cantbeli:

....You could ask from you jordanina brothers to send you water... :roll:


What the **** that have to do with it ?

The fact that israel do supply them water.

And jeruslem is an israeli city...so don't bull**** anyone.

[One?]

BTW : You people ever asked yourself why israel need to suply them water ? power ? phones ?

Why ? why Egept can't ? they are they brothers no ?
I dont disagree with that but i have never heard of that before. mind providing some articles or something to back that up?

I don't no how to prove it...but trust me...i am sure in 100%..israel supply them water..power...and phones...mayba..myabe phone not...but in 100% we supply them water.

I will try to prove it later.

yup thats why when the Aqsa mosque almost got burnt down, the city of jurasalem mysteriosly cut the water off.

:roll: :cantbeli:

....You could ask from you jordanina brothers to send you water... :roll:


What the f*** that have to do with it ?

The fact that israel do supply them water.

And jeruslem is an israeli city...so don't bull**** anyone.

I guess you don't absorb what you read. I said the city of jerusalem cut the water supply of the mosque MEANING ISRAEL.

[UoUo]

BTW : You people ever asked yourself why israel need to suply them water ? power ? phones ?

Why ? why Egept can't ? they are they brothers no ?
I dont disagree with that but i have never heard of that before. mind providing some articles or something to back that up?

I don't no how to prove it...but trust me...i am sure in 100%..israel supply them water..power...and phones...mayba..myabe phone not...but in 100% we supply them water.

I will try to prove it later.

yup thats why when the Aqsa mosque almost got burnt down, the city of jurasalem mysteriosly cut the water off.

:roll: :cantbeli:

....You could ask from you jordanina brothers to send you water... :roll:


What the f*** that have to do with it ?

The fact that israel do supply them water.

And jeruslem is an israeli city...so don't bull**** anyone.

I guess you don't absorb what you read. I said the city of jerusalem cut the water supply of the mosque MEANING ISRAEL.

But what that have to do with the fact that israel supply the paltinian water ?

[One?]

BTW : You people ever asked yourself why israel need to suply them water ? power ? phones ?

Why ? why Egept can't ? they are they brothers no ?
I dont disagree with that but i have never heard of that before. mind providing some articles or something to back that up?

I don't no how to prove it...but trust me...i am sure in 100%..israel supply them water..power...and phones...mayba..myabe phone not...but in 100% we supply them water.

I will try to prove it later.

yup thats why when the Aqsa mosque almost got burnt down, the city of jurasalem mysteriosly cut the water off.

:roll: :cantbeli:

....You could ask from you jordanina brothers to send you water... :roll:


What the f*** that have to do with it ?

The fact that israel do supply them water.

And jeruslem is an israeli city...so don't bull**** anyone.

I guess you don't absorb what you read. I said the city of jerusalem cut the water supply of the mosque MEANING ISRAEL.

But what that have to do with the fact that israel supply the paltinian water ?

they turn it off whenever they feel like it.

[UoUo]

BTW : You people ever asked yourself why israel need to suply them water ? power ? phones ?

Why ? why Egept can't ? they are they brothers no ?
I dont disagree with that but i have never heard of that before. mind providing some articles or something to back that up?

I don't no how to prove it...but trust me...i am sure in 100%..israel supply them water..power...and phones...mayba..myabe phone not...but in 100% we supply them water.

I will try to prove it later.

yup thats why when the Aqsa mosque almost got burnt down, the city of jurasalem mysteriosly cut the water off.

:roll: :cantbeli:

....You could ask from you jordanina brothers to send you water... :roll:


What the f*** that have to do with it ?

The fact that israel do supply them water.

And jeruslem is an israeli city...so don't bull**** anyone.

I guess you don't absorb what you read. I said the city of jerusalem cut the water supply of the mosque MEANING ISRAEL.

But what that have to do with the fact that israel supply the paltinian water ?

they turn it off whenever they feel like it.

Oh...yeah...100000 died in gaza last week cuz israel cut the water supply... :cantbeli: :cantbeli:

Imagine how it would be if the palstinian whould have to supply israel water....israel was no longer exist.

My point is...why israel have to supply water to the palstinian ? why the 22 arab countries (thier "brothers" like they call them)...why can't they supply them water ? why the zinoist pigs have to supply water to the holy palstinains ?

[soldierandy]

If Israel was to retaliate the same way palestinian bombers act then they would kill as many civilians as possible and totally indiscriminately.
And the suicide bombers find the approval of most of the palestinians not a small fanatical minority. It is not like the KKK in the US or the british fascist party. It is more like the nazi party in Germany. You can't blame all the Germans for atrocities but they surely voted for the nazi party and went to war gladly.

The palestinians were dancing in the streets on 9/11. Remember that?

[[AFSOC]]

Oh how Israel has gotten soo gay....

Im tired of hearing your bull**** about how Palestine is soo bad and no one likes us.

IMAGINE IS JEWS NEVER BITCHED AND FOUGHT wit VIOLENCE on getting ISRAEL???

Man how peaceful it'd be, no doubt.

[One?]

Israel is an occupying force in Gaza and westbank, therefore they have to provide water.

[EvanL]

I love reading these. haha sit back n watch the **** fly.

[[AFSOC]]

Hey man...

That wasnt meant to start no flame ****...its just my opinion, and frankly the truth.

Flame on if u want but your wasting your time. :lol:

[One?]

The palestinians were dancing in the streets on 9/11. Remember that?

who those kids that were living in a 1km camp? Yup all 5 million palestinians were dancing.

Also all americans were cheering when african-americans were being murdered by the KKK.

[EvanL]

The palestinians were dancing in the streets on 9/11. Remember that?

who those kids that were living in a 1km camp? Yup all 5 million palestinians were dancing.

Also all americans were cheering when african-americans were being murdered by the KKK.
One if your gonna say things as dumb as that i would ask you to please take that flag off you posts. You do not represent our country with views like that.

[soldierandy]

So One you think that the people that support suicide bombings and have such extreme views within the palestinians are as small a minority as the KKK in the US? Are you sure about that???

[Ratamacue]

One if your gonna say things as dumb as that i would ask you to please take that flag off you posts. You do not represent our country with views like that.

I think he was being sarcastic.

[UoUo]

]Oh how Israel has gotten soo gay....

Im tired of hearing your bull**** about how Palestine is soo bad and no one likes us.

IMAGINE IS JEWS NEVER BITCHED AND FOUGHT wit VIOLENCE on getting ISRAEL???

Man how peaceful it'd be, no doubt.


Soory to tell you...but me are not USA...we don't have the politacl power as usa have...we can;t do what ever we see right.



The palestinians were dancing in the streets on 9/11. Remember that?

who those kids that were living in a 1km camp? Yup all 5 million palestinians were dancing.

Also all americans were cheering when african-americans were being murdered by the KKK.

Actully the pic's of palstinians dancing was from ramallah. not a 1km camp.

And bull**** them....most of the palstinian peoples support the terror...the terroists are heros there.

[One?]

The palestinians were dancing in the streets on 9/11. Remember that?

who those kids that were living in a 1km camp? Yup all 5 million palestinians were dancing.

Also all americans were cheering when african-americans were being murdered by the KKK.
One if your gonna say things as dumb as that i would ask you to please take that flag off you posts. You do not represent our country with views like that.


I was being sarcastic. Because not all palestinians were dancing and not all americans were cheering either. I was trying to make a point.

[Dr Gang]

i'm often confronted with this argumentation like the one coming from the canadian dude that in the end, everything is comparable, that everything is equal that resistance is terrorism for another, that an army can conduct state terror operations and so on. I also heard many times that there would be some sort of symmetry between the israeli feeling toward palestinian and that of palestinian's toward israelis.

It's difficult to answer that because anytime you'll try to explain the fundamental difference between the 2 behavior, the 2 public perceptions, the 2 public opinions, the proportion of extremists in each side, there's always someone to show you the picture of a boy in his blood or whatever other horror war can cause.

To me, the difference between the israelis and the palestinians is huge :

When you find 1 extremist that would be willing to go kill indiscriminately palestinians like that doctor who went in a mosque to shoot everyone, it happened ONCE in 90 years of conflict, i don't need to tell you how often this opposite happens.
When you find israeli extremists planning to blow bombs in the territories, they're being arrested by the Israeli security service and serving 15 years of jail, just like anyone else (it happened recently). In the territories, the terrorists are used by arafat has a political tool to worsen the situation. The very same terrorist are adored by the population because it's in the arab culture to love this idea of martyrdom.
In Israel, the history book are not pushing the israelis to hate their neighbour, at worse, israelis despise them, which is a very very different and much less hostile feeling. In the arab/muslim countries, the hate of jews is taught from the very begininng of someone's life through TV shows, false informations, public laws (a jew can't enter saudi arabia for instance, is there such an interdiction in Israel for muslims ?). Discrimination in arab/muslim countries is everywhere, a non-muslim can't become president of Egypt for instance, islam is state-religion in many countries while arab is also an official language in Israel and roadsigns are often in both languages. Few people are aware that the full name of countries known as Egypt, Syria, Afghanistan is actually arab republic of Egypt, arab republic of Syria, islamic republic of Afghanistan and so on. How do you call that if it's not real, constitutionnal racism ?
Ask the christians palestinians how they feel toward hamas, islamic djihad, ask christian lebaneses if they're happy their country has been destroyed and ruined way before the israeli invaded south Lebanon because of Syria, palestinians and iranian secret services.
Ask Iran if it's how it has to be to add banners on ballistic missiles saying they're directed at Israel ? Not only this kind of platform is despicable but also imagine the effect on the civilians around, what will they learn from that.
You've seen palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11, have you seen new-yorkers dancing after the earthquake in Bam ? Have you seen israelis dancing in the streets ? Have you heard that only Israel's help has been refused by Iran to help there ? Do u think Iran would send any help to Israel or the USA ?
All that to remember everyone that it is very very difficult to be unreproachable in such a hostile environement like Israel has and they're behaving far far far far better than any other country around. Israel ranked 19th or 18th in the human developpement UN report. Right between Portugal and Greece... Where are arab/islamic countries ? Still at the cave age for most of them.
And yes, it's true that Israel provided what Jordan or Egypt didn't care to provide to the palestinians when they were in control of the territories (and not willing to make an independant state out of them...) : Water and sewage system, telephone, universities, democratically elected mayors. No one tells that it's the israelis who rebuilt the water system destroyed during the 2nd intifada, the system not only destroyed by the tanks rolling over but also in acts of sabotage by palestinians themselves to then be able to complain.
You can't judge a people on the extremists it has but you can start to ask yourself questions when the rate of extremists reaches a particular level, when the phenomenon is not an exception, when these extremists are not being fought the way they deserve to be. That's the case for the palestinians and the arab/muslim world in general.

Think about what makes the legitimacy of a state :

-democratically elected politicians
-pluralism, alternance
-economic success
-coherent institutions
-efficient and independant judiciary system
-basic occidental criterias of human rights
and last but not least :
-the strength to keep it that way !

That's what give Israel the capability and the legitimacy to give orders to its citizen and make them obey. The laws of a country are always the emanation of the public will. That's why the IDF can go in the territories, make an operation, maybe kill and still not be called a terrorist organization, that's because there's a whole legitimate structure behind them, that may punish them if they do bad things. the IDF has a code of behavior with precise rules of engagement, coherent with the environment the soldiers will be in.
On the other hand, when the palestinian authority says it can't arrest terrorists because it may spark civil war, it tells it all.
Other example : does it bother you if Great Britain has nuclear capability ? No, cause it's a stable democratic country where the bomb is not likely to fall in bad hands. Now, could you say the same about Iran ? Irak ? Pakistan ? Lybia ? Of course you can't, Israel is way closer to GB than to any of the mentionned countries. That's why you can't compare war against Irak for the WMD and Israel who gets away with it.
There's a world of difference between how israeli behave and how arabs and palestinian more specifically behave. Some are civilized even though they kill, the others are savages, not only because they kill.

Now you can keep on saying Israel is a terrorist state...

[Javehn]

I don't bellieve what i am readin . Voice of reason , can that be ? That is most exact description someone could do about the situation . Must surtainly , someone in the world does knows the situation as it is .
Haleluya , thank you lord , and thank you dr Gang .Welcome aboard.

[soldierandy]

quite a long post there dr gang! my sentiments exactly!

[AirZone]

i'm often confronted with this argumentation like the one coming from the canadian dude that in the end, everything is comparable, that everything is equal that resistance is terrorism for another, that an army can conduct state terror operations and so on. I also heard many times that there would be some sort of symmetry between the israeli feeling toward palestinian and that of palestinian's toward israelis.

It's difficult to answer that because anytime you'll try to explain the fundamental difference between the 2 behavior, the 2 public perceptions, the 2 public opinions, the proportion of extremists in each side, there's always someone to show you the picture of a boy in his blood or whatever other horror war can cause.

To me, the difference between the israelis and the palestinians is huge :

When you find 1 extremist that would be willing to go kill indiscriminately palestinians like that doctor who went in a mosque to shoot everyone, it happened ONCE in 90 years of conflict, i don't need to tell you how often this opposite happens.
When you find israeli extremists planning to blow bombs in the territories, they're being arrested by the Israeli security service and serving 15 years of jail, just like anyone else (it happened recently). In the territories, the terrorists are used by arafat has a political tool to worsen the situation. The very same terrorist are adored by the population because it's in the arab culture to love this idea of martyrdom.
In Israel, the history book are not pushing the israelis to hate their neighbour, at worse, israelis despise them, which is a very very different and much less hostile feeling. In the arab/muslim countries, the hate of jews is taught from the very begininng of someone's life through TV shows, false informations, public laws (a jew can't enter saudi arabia for instance, is there such an interdiction in Israel for muslims ?). Discrimination in arab/muslim countries is everywhere, a non-muslim can't become president of Egypt for instance, islam is state-religion in many countries while arab is also an official language in Israel and roadsigns are often in both languages. Few people are aware that the full name of countries known as Egypt, Syria, Afghanistan is actually arab republic of Egypt, arab republic of Syria, islamic republic of Afghanistan and so on. How do you call that if it's not real, constitutionnal racism ?
Ask the christians palestinians how they feel toward hamas, islamic djihad, ask christian lebaneses if they're happy their country has been destroyed and ruined way before the israeli invaded south Lebanon because of Syria, palestinians and iranian secret services.
Ask Iran if it's how it has to be to add banners on ballistic missiles saying they're directed at Israel ? Not only this kind of platform is despicable but also imagine the effect on the civilians around, what will they learn from that.
You've seen palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11, have you seen new-yorkers dancing after the earthquake in Bam ? Have you seen israelis dancing in the streets ? Have you heard that only Israel's help has been refused by Iran to help there ? Do u think Iran would send any help to Israel or the USA ?
All that to remember everyone that it is very very difficult to be unreproachable in such a hostile environement like Israel has and they're behaving far far far far better than any other country around. Israel ranked 19th or 18th in the human developpement UN report. Right between Portugal and Greece... Where are arab/islamic countries ? Still at the cave age for most of them.
And yes, it's true that Israel provided what Jordan or Egypt didn't care to provide to the palestinians when they were in control of the territories (and not willing to make an independant state out of them...) : Water and sewage system, telephone, universities, democratically elected mayors. No one tells that it's the israelis who rebuilt the water system destroyed during the 2nd intifada, the system not only destroyed by the tanks rolling over but also in acts of sabotage by palestinians themselves to then be able to complain.
You can't judge a people on the extremists it has but you can start to ask yourself questions when the rate of extremists reaches a particular level, when the phenomenon is not an exception, when these extremists are not being fought the way they deserve to be. That's the case for the palestinians and the arab/muslim world in general.

Think about what makes the legitimacy of a state :

-democratically elected politicians
-pluralism, alternance
-economic success
-coherent institutions
-efficient and independant judiciary system
-basic occidental criterias of human rights
and last but not least :
-the strength to keep it that way !

That's what give Israel the capability and the legitimacy to give orders to its citizen and make them obey. The laws of a country are always the emanation of the public will. That's why the IDF can go in the territories, make an operation, maybe kill and still not be called a terrorist organization, that's because there's a whole legitimate structure behind them, that may punish them if they do bad things. the IDF has a code of behavior with precise rules of engagement, coherent with the environment the soldiers will be in.
On the other hand, when the palestinian authority says it can't arrest terrorists because it may spark civil war, it tells it all.
Other example : does it bother you if Great Britain has nuclear capability ? No, cause it's a stable democratic country where the bomb is not likely to fall in bad hands. Now, could you say the same about Iran ? Irak ? Pakistan ? Lybia ? Of course you can't, Israel is way closer to GB than to any of the mentionned countries. That's why you can't compare war against Irak for the WMD and Israel who gets away with it.
There's a world of difference between how israeli behave and how arabs and palestinian more specifically behave. Some are civilized even though they kill, the others are savages, not only because they kill.

Now you can keep on saying Israel is a terrorist state...

did some one shut one up ?! rofl

and yeah, great post.. gotta love the voice of reality... :hug:

[One?]

extremists in each side, there's always someone to show you the picture of a boy in his blood or whatever other horror war can cause.

You might want to tell the other Israelis here that. All they show is pictures of Israelis, and palestinian kids with toy guns.


When you find 1 extremist that would be willing to go kill indiscriminately palestinians like that doctor who went in a mosque to shoot everyone, it happened ONCE in 90 years of conflict, i don't need to tell you how often this opposite happens.

And what exactly was the role of unit 101 lead by Sharon?

What about the following:

Gush Emunim
In 1980 car bombings of five West Bank Arab mayors resulted in crippling two of the mayors. In 1983, the Hebron Islamic College was the target of a machinegun and grenade attack that killed three Arab students and wounded thirty-three others.

Terror Against Terror or TNT
Egrof Magen


In Israel, the history book are not pushing the israelis to hate their neighbour

Don't you teach that what Yusha did was OK? So killing arabs is what prophet yusha would have done, thus making it right.


a jew can't enter saudi arabia for instance, is there such an interdiction in Israel for muslims

But an arab married to an Israeli woman CANNOT give his children the Israeli Citizenship, they would get deported to the PA territory after a certain time.


Discrimination in arab/muslim countries is everywhere, a non-muslim can't become president of Egypt for instance, islam is state-religion in many countries while arab is also an official language in Israel and roadsigns are often in both languages. Few people are aware that the full name of countries known as Egypt, Syria, Afghanistan is actually arab republic of Egypt, arab republic of Syria

Isn't Israel a JEWISH state?

Arn't there ARAB JEWS?

ARABS are not all muslims. There are 22 arab countries that have been called arab for the past thousands of years.

Oh and afghanistan is not arab country. That leads me to think that you know nothing about this issue.



Ask the christians palestinians how they feel toward hamas, islamic djihad, ask christian lebaneses if they're happy their country has been destroyed and ruined way before the israeli invaded south Lebanon because of Syria, palestinians and iranian secret services.

Most Christian palestinians are members of all other other groups. Islamic Jihad and Hamas except muslims. Others such as Fateh, PFLP have high ranking christians in the organizations.

Lebanese Christians masssacared muslims by the thousands so don't tell what they think. And the president of lebanon MUST be CHRISTIAN although lebanon is an arab country.


Ask Iran if it's how it has to be to add banners on ballistic missiles saying they're directed at Israel ? Not only this kind of platform is despicable but also imagine the effect on the civilians around, what will they learn from that.

WHy does Israel keep threatening that it wants to bomb Iran's nuclear facilities? Who are they to decide what happens in the middle east.


You've seen palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11, have you seen new-yorkers dancing after the earthquake in Bam ?

No, but I've seen americans cheer while killing Iraqis. (there was a huge discussion about this you can check the rest of the forum)

Also there were arabs and muslims in that building that died.


Israel's help has been refused by Iran to help there ? Do u think Iran would send any help to Israel or the USA ?

Israel keeps threatening Iran that it wants to bomb it, isn't why they bought the new F16s? And then you expect Iran to accept help from them?


Israel has and they're behaving far far far far better than any other country around. Israel ranked 19th or 18th in the human developpement UN report. Right between Portugal and Greece... Where are arab/islamic countries ? Still at the cave age for most of them.

For Israelis its great. Why don't you check the prisons, and see what goes on in there.

As for arab countries living in caves that only makes me laugh.


And yes, it's true that Israel provided what Jordan or Egypt didn't care to provide to the palestinians when they were in control of the territories (and not willing to make an independant state out of them...) : Water and sewage system, telephone, universities, democratically elected mayors.

They are palestinian universities, and all officials are elected by palestinians.

How many times did Israel arrest palestinians going to universities? How many times did IDF soldeirs shoot at children going/leaving school? How long have palestian kids been out of school due to IDF curfews and occupation.

Thats why Israel also removed the airport from existence, because they are trying to help palestinians.


On the other hand, when the palestinian authority says it can't arrest terrorists because it may spark civil war, it tells it all.

If 50% of palestinians don't believe in the occupation, are you going to arrest all 50%?


Other example : does it bother you if Great Britain has nuclear capability ? No, cause it's a stable democratic country where the bomb is not likely to fall in bad hands. Now, could you say the same about Iran ? Irak ? Pakistan ? Lybia ? Of course you can't, Israel is way closer to GB than to any of the mentionned countries.

The US a stable democratic country and dropped 2 a-bombs on japan.


That's why you can't compare war against Irak for the WMD and Israel who gets away with it.

Still can't find the WMD in Iraq!


There's a world of difference between how israeli behave and how arabs and palestinian more specifically behave. Some are civilized even though they kill, the others are savages, not only because they kill.

Typical racist comment. All arabs are savages.

And you preach that although israelis kill civilians its alright because they can do so, and because they are a democratic country. :cantbeli:


did some one shut one up ?!

Nope I never read the long post until you posted your lame comment.

[Whistler]

One,

Israel isn't only home to many Jews from Arab countries, it is also home to approximately 1 million MUSLIM ARABS.

These Israeli Muslim Arabs enjoy all the same rights as Israeli Jews. They own businesses, vote, and can run in politics. There are even a few Muslim members of Israeli parliament.

Now can you name one Islamic country in the Middle East that allows Jews to live there, vote, and run for office? They don't even let their own Muslim citizens vote (except for maybe the new Iraq, thanks to the Americans).

[StarvingStudent47]

i'm often confronted with this argumentation like the one coming from the canadian dude that in the end, everything is comparable, that everything is equal that resistance is terrorism for another, that an army can conduct state terror operations and so on. I also heard many times that there would be some sort of symmetry between the israeli feeling toward palestinian and that of palestinian's toward israelis.

It's difficult to answer that because anytime you'll try to explain the fundamental difference between the 2 behavior, the 2 public perceptions, the 2 public opinions, the proportion of extremists in each side, there's always someone to show you the picture of a boy in his blood or whatever other horror war can cause.

To me, the difference between the israelis and the palestinians is huge :

When you find 1 extremist that would be willing to go kill indiscriminately palestinians like that doctor who went in a mosque to shoot everyone, it happened ONCE in 90 years of conflict, i don't need to tell you how often this opposite happens.
When you find israeli extremists planning to blow bombs in the territories, they're being arrested by the Israeli security service and serving 15 years of jail, just like anyone else (it happened recently). In the territories, the terrorists are used by arafat has a political tool to worsen the situation. The very same terrorist are adored by the population because it's in the arab culture to love this idea of martyrdom.
In Israel, the history book are not pushing the israelis to hate their neighbour, at worse, israelis despise them, which is a very very different and much less hostile feeling. In the arab/muslim countries, the hate of jews is taught from the very begininng of someone's life through TV shows, false informations, public laws (a jew can't enter saudi arabia for instance, is there such an interdiction in Israel for muslims ?). Discrimination in arab/muslim countries is everywhere, a non-muslim can't become president of Egypt for instance, islam is state-religion in many countries while arab is also an official language in Israel and roadsigns are often in both languages. Few people are aware that the full name of countries known as Egypt, Syria, Afghanistan is actually arab republic of Egypt, arab republic of Syria, islamic republic of Afghanistan and so on. How do you call that if it's not real, constitutionnal racism ?
Ask the christians palestinians how they feel toward hamas, islamic djihad, ask christian lebaneses if they're happy their country has been destroyed and ruined way before the israeli invaded south Lebanon because of Syria, palestinians and iranian secret services.
Ask Iran if it's how it has to be to add banners on ballistic missiles saying they're directed at Israel ? Not only this kind of platform is despicable but also imagine the effect on the civilians around, what will they learn from that.
You've seen palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11, have you seen new-yorkers dancing after the earthquake in Bam ? Have you seen israelis dancing in the streets ? Have you heard that only Israel's help has been refused by Iran to help there ? Do u think Iran would send any help to Israel or the USA ?
All that to remember everyone that it is very very difficult to be unreproachable in such a hostile environement like Israel has and they're behaving far far far far better than any other country around. Israel ranked 19th or 18th in the human developpement UN report. Right between Portugal and Greece... Where are arab/islamic countries ? Still at the cave age for most of them.
And yes, it's true that Israel provided what Jordan or Egypt didn't care to provide to the palestinians when they were in control of the territories (and not willing to make an independant state out of them...) : Water and sewage system, telephone, universities, democratically elected mayors. No one tells that it's the israelis who rebuilt the water system destroyed during the 2nd intifada, the system not only destroyed by the tanks rolling over but also in acts of sabotage by palestinians themselves to then be able to complain.
You can't judge a people on the extremists it has but you can start to ask yourself questions when the rate of extremists reaches a particular level, when the phenomenon is not an exception, when these extremists are not being fought the way they deserve to be. That's the case for the palestinians and the arab/muslim world in general.

Think about what makes the legitimacy of a state :

-democratically elected politicians
-pluralism, alternance
-economic success
-coherent institutions
-efficient and independant judiciary system
-basic occidental criterias of human rights
and last but not least :
-the strength to keep it that way !

That's what give Israel the capability and the legitimacy to give orders to its citizen and make them obey. The laws of a country are always the emanation of the public will. That's why the IDF can go in the territories, make an operation, maybe kill and still not be called a terrorist organization, that's because there's a whole legitimate structure behind them, that may punish them if they do bad things. the IDF has a code of behavior with precise rules of engagement, coherent with the environment the soldiers will be in.
On the other hand, when the palestinian authority says it can't arrest terrorists because it may spark civil war, it tells it all.
Other example : does it bother you if Great Britain has nuclear capability ? No, cause it's a stable democratic country where the bomb is not likely to fall in bad hands. Now, could you say the same about Iran ? Irak ? Pakistan ? Lybia ? Of course you can't, Israel is way closer to GB than to any of the mentionned countries. That's why you can't compare war against Irak for the WMD and Israel who gets away with it.
There's a world of difference between how israeli behave and how arabs and palestinian more specifically behave. Some are civilized even though they kill, the others are savages, not only because they kill.

Now you can keep on saying Israel is a terrorist state...

RIGHT ON.

That's one hell of a first post. Welcome aboard! I'm doubly happy to see that this post is coming from a Parisian--it's a nice counter-example to the perception that all Europeans are anti-Israel.

[Undo]

Not one coherent or rational word can I find in any of One's comments. I think that if One represents the best spokesman for the palestinians then their cause is doomed to fail. He misses the point on so many issues it is not worth the time to try to reason it out.

I would love to hear any sort of rational discourse about this issue, but I think this is what the rest of the world is waiting for, too, so I won't hold my breath.

Sigh.

[One?]

One,

Israel isn't only home to many Jews from Arab countries, it is also home to approximately 1 million MUSLIM ARABS.

These Israeli Muslim Arabs enjoy all the same rights as Israeli Jews. They own businesses, vote, and can run in politics. There are even a few Muslim members of Israeli parliament.

Now can you name one Islamic country in the Middle East that allows Jews to live there, vote, and run for office? They don't even let their own Muslim citizens vote (except for maybe the new Iraq, thanks to the Americans).

Iran has lots of jews, yemen, morocoo are a few examples.

As for Israel they are trying to get rid of the arabs in parliament because they dont want them there. The majority of the jewish state are jewish. So its a jewish country.


As for Undo, I don't represent anyone and I could careless what you think :)

[Dr Gang]

You might want to tell the other Israelis here that. All they show is pictures of Israelis, and palestinian kids with toy guns.

I don't get this one, you may be more explicit...


And what exactly was the role of unit 101 lead by Sharon?
Making war ? Retaliating to incursions by arab fighters who killed israelis ?


What about the following:

Gush Emunim
In 1980 car bombings of five West Bank Arab mayors resulted in crippling two of the mayors. In 1983, the Hebron Islamic College was the target of a machinegun and grenade attack that killed three Arab students and wounded thirty-three others.

Terror Against Terror or TNT
Egrof Magen

Ok so sue me, 4 events, against hundreds. I'm sure that makes it even...
As i said in my post, the presence of extremists in a population is not something you can make judgement about. Show me anything, any system that has a 100% success rate. You simply can't, this is the same stuff here, provided the extremists keep being fought and marginalized. Which is the case for one of the 2 protagonists. Guess which...


Don't you teach that what Yusha did was OK? So killing arabs is what prophet yusha would have done, thus making it right.
I don't know that yusha thing and whatever he did, if it's biblical is
1) far far past
2)probably mostly mythology
3) an example for very few

Thanks to that comment, i can bounce and remember everyone that as far as i know, the world is confronted with one specific terrorism : the islamic one. You can leave yusha, yoshi and the Mario brothers where they are, they don't belong to our era.


But an arab married to an Israeli woman CANNOT give his children the Israeli Citizenship, they would get deported to the PA territory after a certain time.

Well, show me a jewish member of parliament in an arab/muslim country, you can't even show me a parliament in most of them. Don't bring the citizenship, jews are not brought to the closest border in arab/muslim countries, they're hanged (Irak, Iran, Syria ...) or parias.
I won't blame Israel for trying to keep a demographic statu quo, the democratic and advanced nature of this country is mostly due to the fact that there's a jewish majority, let's keep it that way.


Isn't Israel a JEWISH state?

Arn't there ARAB JEWS?

Israel is a jewish state, the same way France is a catholic country or Russia an orthodox one. Israel is, according to the founding texts the homeland of the jewish people, to me it doesn't exclude other religions or ethnie. BUT, being a homeland means that jewish won't be persecuted there because they're jew, something that cannot be guaranteed anywhere else in the world, history showed this many times. Have a jewish minority in a democratic Israel and you can no longer provide this guarantee. It's as clear as that.



ARABS are not all muslims. There are 22 arab countries that have been called arab for the past thousands of years.

Oh and afghanistan is not arab country. That leads me to think that you know nothing about this issue.

Read what i wrote again, if all you've got to argue is uncomplete quotations, you may as well let go.


Most Christian palestinians are members of all other other groups. Islamic Jihad and Hamas except muslims. Others such as Fateh, PFLP have high ranking christians in the organizations.

Lebanese Christians masssacared muslims by the thousands so don't tell what they think. And the president of lebanon MUST be CHRISTIAN although lebanon is an arab country.

It still doesn't mean they're comfortable with the way things are turning now, and let me tell you, they're not, there's been numerous reports and articles about that. The christmas holyday was a good occasion for reporters to make papers about that.
Lebanese massacred each other, and it wasn't the case before palestinians fleeing Jordania (arabs killed arabs, should i say palestinians killed palestinians ?) invaded south Lebanon in what was called fatah land. Read about the Lebanese civil war, things are not black and white but turned dark gray after this specific event.


WHy does Israel keep threatening that it wants to bomb Iran's nuclear facilities? Who are they to decide what happens in the middle east.

A ballistic missile destined to hit a city is not the same stuff than a raid directed against a nuclear facility. Plus, the rethoric of destroying Israel goes on for decades, the threat of the strike on the nuclear facilities is a very recent event, they haven't waited to be threatened to say their intend outloud.


No, but I've seen americans cheer while killing Iraqis. (there was a huge discussion about this you can check the rest of the forum)

So you say militaries should do their job like the crying freeman, shedding a tear everytime they kill someone, fire a mortar shell or release a bomb ? What kind of a soldier would that be ?
The US forces surely didn't want to intendedly hit civilians but THIS IS WAR FOR GOD SAKE, who can guarantee there'll be no civilians deaths during a war ? This is the 100% story again, this is so stupid to pretend that this is an option to never harm civilians. As we speak, what you'd surely call iraqi resistance detonate bombs that harm, kill and cripple iraqi civilians on a daily basis.



Also there were arabs and muslims in that building that died.

If they were armed, then good riddance, if they weren't, that's a loss. Maybe you can tell me : if i decided to take a stroll on the "chemin des dames" during the german attack (WWI) and die, are the germans or the french war criminals ? Or was i looking for it having a walk in a known combat zone. I know what you're gonna say : why do they fight if there are civilians ? Because i heard that the palestinian fighters refused the invitation to wage war in the Negev desert where it's empty and flat. Go figure, i may be a worm tongue but maybe hiding among half-agreeing civilians is a commonly used technique for arab/muslim fighters.


Israel keeps threatening Iran that it wants to bomb it, isn't why they bought the new F16s? And then you expect Iran to accept help from them?

Refer to what i said earlier, there are big scale earthquakes in Iran every 5 years more or less. It's not the first time they turned down international help on moronic pretexts, not mentioning Israel's help.


For Israelis its great. Why don't you check the prisons, and see what goes on in there.

The 100% thing again mixed with a total memory eclipse about the so-called palestinians collaborator would probably love to serve a jail sentence in an israeli-like prison over the fate that awaits them. You shouldn't mention the judiciary system in the arab/muslim countries where death penalty still exists, unlike in Israel where the only prisoner killed was Eichmann, because crime against humanity is an international offense punished with death penalty.


As for arab countries living in caves that only makes me laugh.

Laugh, the same laugh dictators have in these countries when contempling the misery of their subjects



And yes, it's true that Israel provided what Jordan or Egypt didn't care to provide to the palestinians when they were in control of the territories (and not willing to make an independant state out of them...) : Water and sewage system, telephone, universities, democratically elected mayors.

They are palestinian universities, and all officials are elected by palestinians.

That's what i said, precisely, thanks for the support here.


How many times did Israel arrest palestinians going to universities? How many times did IDF soldeirs shoot at children going/leaving school? How long have palestian kids been out of school due to IDF curfews and occupation.

Just try to step back once more and ask yourself : why arrests ? why curfews ? why blockades ? why incursions ? For the pleasure i guess...
Let me tell you, i'm for a 2 state solutions based on the 1967 borders and i also think that rioting is a good way of making progress toward independance. BUT once you start to use terrorism against civilians and get support from the population, from foreign countries in cash money and weapon supplies, it becomes a whole new story and this type of uprising must be fought.


Thats why Israel also removed the airport from existence, because they are trying to help palestinians.

Except arafat, no palestinian (very very few) had enough money to take a trip to hawai by plane, it was a leader caprice, this money could have been spent at much more important things. Things that would have an impact on the lives of the simple people.


If 50% of palestinians don't believe in the occupation, are you going to arrest all 50%?

If 50% believe in terrorism as a way of fighting, then there's a work of teaching about alternate forms of uprising beside terror. Which is, once again not the case. There's also a conclusion to be made about how politics have been done so far by the PA (corruption, money directly in arafat's pocket). Today they discover that the hatred they injected in most palestinian minds is partly returning against the PA, i hope they'll draw conclusions from that.


The US a stable democratic country and dropped 2 a-bombs on japan.

These weapons only became the vector of the threat of mutual destruction when 2 countries had the bomb. Before, it was a weapon to be used to force Japan to surrender. No matter how harsh that was, you can't ask US officials to decide in their heart and soul to rather have 50000 soldiers killed in an invasion operation over killing tens of hundreds of people. You prefer your family over your neighbour, it's the same story here.
This way of presenting things may be shocking but life isn't a situation between doing good and bad things, sometimes you have to pick the less bad thing for you, that's what they did.
I also think they did this because the americans still had Pearl Harbor across their throat. This attack by Japan was indeed obnoxious but don't make them deserve 2 a-bombs only for that.

Anyway, you don't seem to get my point here but i'm getting used to it now.


Still can't find the WMD in Iraq!

That's not the point, the point is that now you hear among arab/muslim diplomacy that Israel should be given the same treatment. Read with more attention what i write.


Typical racist comment. All arabs are savages.

As i said, passed a certain limit of extremism in a culture, in a society, this very culture or society must start to ask itself if there's something wrong in it. No self-consciousness episode yet -> still savages. Sorry, i stand firm.


And you preach that although israelis kill civilians its alright because they can do so, and because they are a democratic country.

As you may not know, war can be legal too, that must be a shock to you. And i didn't say that they can kill for free, i said that because of the whole democratic machinery, you can't call that state-terrorism, that's all.


Nope I never read the long post until you posted your lame comment.

Well, for what i can tell, you should sometimes take a look at what others have to say as your argumentation needs rectification. The worse thing is not what you say, it's just that you choose to ignore different opinions.

[EvanL]

****ers! Shut the hell up!

[One?]

I didn't read the post because it was long. I thought that was gonna end the argument. But it was still going.


f***! Shut the hell up!

OK!

[Whistler]

As for Israel they are trying to get rid of the arabs in parliament because they dont want them there. The majority of the jewish state are jewish. So its a jewish country.

The majority of Canada is Christian, does that mean we are a Christian country? No. Anybody can live here.

[aFgHaNibOi]

Why do some people avoid calling Palestinians by their name? I mean, what's with the "Israeli Muslim Arab," just say, "Palestinian." :cantbeli:

And for the people who wanted distortion, here's one fine example...

Iraqi Man Down, then SHOT [CLICK HERE] (http://www.ericblumrich.com/rm/shoot_pc.ram)

Here's what the website had to say about it:


New details regarding this video have come to my attention, via a number of visitors, as well as a few people serving in Iraq alongside the young marine featured during the latter half of the film.

Now- I will stand by what I said about the first half of the video- we do see that this Iraqi Insurgent is plainly injured, crawling AWAY from the source of fire. and no threat to the marine who shoots him dead from a safe distance of approximately 50 feet.

I have gotten a few e-mails, containing heaps of excuses for such a kill, but none of them- not a one, stand up to common sense.

Likewise, the gutteral cheer from the surrounding marines is disturbing, to say the least. Yes- war is war- but war is not a sport. If these folks can cheer what is plainly a turkey-shoot of a wounded enemy combatant, there's something seriously wrong with the mental state of our armed forces.

Now- to move on to the latter part. I have been subsequently been given evidence that, number one- the marine being interviewd may not have been the soldier who shot the insurgent, and number two- his statements have been heavilly edited, and taken out of context.

HOWEVER-

I still believe the first part of the film is a valid picture of our occupation forces at work. Thus, the film will remain online.


Now, we can't say that "it didn't happen," when clearly, it did. Same with the IDF breaking the Palestinians' arms. That's barbarianism... :-*$

[StarvingStudent47]

Why do some people avoid calling Palestinians by their name? I mean, what's with the "Israeli Muslim Arab," just say, "Palestinian." :cantbeli:


Because "Israeli Muslim Arab" and "Palestinian" are two different things!

An Israeli Muslim Arab is a citizen of Israel who is ethnically Arab and religiously Muslim. This accounts for 15-20% of Israel's population.

Palestinians are NOT citizens of Israel. They were citizens of Jordan and Egypt who were living on land that came under Israeli control during the 1967 War. Jordan and Egypt apparently don't consider them citizens anymore, so to my knowledge they do not have citizenship to any country right now.

Here's an analogy: "Latino-American" and "Mexican alien" are NOT the same thing. A "Latino-American" is someone of Latin American descent who is a citizen of the United States. A "Mexican alien" is NOT a citizen of the USA, but resides within the United States legally/illegally. See the difference? That's the difference between an "Israeli Arab Muslim" and a "Palestinian."

[StarvingStudent47]

The majority of Canada is Christian, does that mean we are a Christian country? No. Anybody can live here.

And Israeli citizens are not all Jews. A few percent are Christians, and nearly 20% are Muslims. However, there is still a majority/state religion of Judaism, just like Anglicanism is still the majority religion in Britain, and Buddhism is the majority religion in Thailand.

[soldierandy]

"Now, we can't say that "it didn't happen," when clearly, it did. Same with the IDF breaking the Palestinians' arms. That's barbarianism... "

The former Iraqi regime and Muslim extremists give barbarism a whole new meaning. They practice only barbarism and nothing else as a matter of policy on a daily scale now.

[soldierandy]

I didn't read the post because it was long. I thought that was gonna end the argument. But it was still going.

Why do you keep writing anything if you can't be bothered to listen!


How many times did IDF soldeirs shoot at children going/leaving school? How long have palestian kids been out of school due to IDF curfews and occupation.

Ah yes the children...makes excellent propaganda especially if cameras are around. Why is it always I see boys hurling stones at israeli tanks and not adults? Is the ploy a bit flawed in it's simplicity?... Get the kids all worked up, brainwash them with hatred and have them throw stones at the soldiers. Then have your gunmen fire a few potshots at the Israelis from behind cover and where there are no cameras, and just keep rolling as the action unfolds. If we are unlucky and still no kid gets shot, might shoot one ourselves and edit it later with Israeli soldiers firing and then the kid that dies before we send it to CNN and Al Jazeera. Hell he still died for the cause! We can send tomorrow a suicide bomber to kill 20 people in a bus as retaliation. Israel can't use that as propaganda as the scene of a bombing is far too gruesome for western channels and of course arabic channels that love blood and gore work for us anyway.



Most Christian palestinians are members of all other other groups. Islamic Jihad and Hamas except muslims. Others such as Fateh, PFLP have high ranking christians in the organizations.

Your post is not that clear due to bad english but I see what you are getting at. Anyway that was in different times. The Palestinian cause then had more of a marxist colour than an islamic one. Back then they didn't do things with suicide bombers or any religious fervour. You didn't have martyrs. A christian doesn't expect to go to heaven after killing himself with another dozen or so innocent people. Have you noticed how the groups that you mention don't feature in the news that much anymore? It is mostly Hezbollah, Al Aqsa Martyrs brigade, Hamas, Islamic this or other. As a matter of fact Arafat himself is still a marxist -incompatible with islam - and keeps mum lately. But in theory he is representative of the palestinians but he is largely ignored by them as they have wholeheartedly embraced islam.


The US a stable democratic country and dropped 2 a-bombs on japan.

I have heard that bandied about lately as an example of US atrocity. What amazes me is that terrorist apologists have to site something that happened almost 60 years ago. (it also shows some ignorance on their part as the bombings of Dresden, Frankfurt and Berlin killed far more people) Apart from what Dr Gang said also you have take into account that the world had gone already through 6 years of the most brutal war they had ever seen. Civilians were getting killed on a wholesale scale in Europe and Asia. Casualties ran into thousands and hundreds of thousands then. Horrible atrocities were committed by the Germans and Japanese and to a great extent it lost the war for them as it determined the free world to beat them. So casualties didn't bother them that much. The western world was different then. Most countries had the death penalty, women didn't have the vote and no political correctness about. This day and age Hiroshima and Nagasaki wouldn't happen. Or Dresden for that matter or the D-Day landings. Too many casualties.

There seems to be a confusion about names here. Arab is one thing, Muslim is another. Palestinian is a different thing and Islamic is another. Arabs are mostly muslim but not necessarily as there are some Christians mainly in Lebanon and some minorities scattered about. Most notably Tariq Aziz from Iraq that until the resurgence of islamic sentiment was not an Islamic 'republic'. (Saddam was anti-Islamic and rather had Stalin, Hitler and the Godfather as his idols). An arab is not necessarily Palestinian of course and a muslim is not necessarily an arab as there are masses of muslim countries racially and geographically far removed from 'Arabia' such as Indonesia and in sub-saharan Africa. Therefore
there are few muslim countries that practice secular goverment. Countries like Turkey that has elections and political parties, women vote etc., Egypt is trying to and so is Algeria and Indonesia. They hardly support the terrorist cause however except the radical elements within them and thankfully the governments are on 'our' side.

If you don't know or understand these differences don't even bother put in your penny's worth in here. The subject is too big for you.

Point is that Islam has to undergo major overhaul to join the civilised world. Just muslims have to understand that religion and politics don't mix. You have to respect freedom of speech, equality of race and gender and democracy. Religion is a belief so it is a private thing and people should be free to practice it. There are beautiful traditions associated with religion all over the world and these should be celebrated. Christmas is lovely so is the Chinese New Year and bhuddist monks etc. Why do muslims have to create such controversy over theirs? Why do they have to band together whether they are right or wrong in fighting with a non-muslim country? Have you ever seen 'Christian' countries do that? Didn't the US and NATO (wrongly) support the muslim bosnians against the christian Serbs for instance?

Oh, and One and Afghanboy if you can't be bothered reading posts don't even attempt to answer. You have been outclassed and outdone by Dr. Gang and you should change your views or shut up.

[Javehn]

Let this post die with it's disshonor . It's atracting people that have no interest to learn and know about the situation .

If they don't even try and bother to read excellent post of Dr Gang ,that presented it the most truethfull and the best and classy possible way , there is not any point to respond on any way at them .
One , i really thought you are better then that . I was wrong .

As i said previosly , some people in here will not have any better comments then this one -
f***! Shut the hell up!

[ExtraT]

I'm not going to comment on much of the stuff that has been said around here. In any case, it seems that, as always, the antisemitic side has a tremendous attention span problem.

Just one thing I was meaning to ask you all: Who are these "palestinians" you are all referring to? Last time I checked, there is no such people. Just call them Arabs, it will clear up the whole situation considerably.

P.S. About the movies that started this thread: I can't even imagine a sane, intelligent man that would consider propaganda like this as a reliable source for forming opinions. Next thing, we'll be considering the writings of Goebbells and Himmler :(

[ExtraT]

You be the judge... :|


We should instead judge your choic of avatars for yourself:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/avatars/11927934283fecc683be7fd.jpg

How interesting: your hate is as primitive as a hate of an 8 year old. :roll:

[One?]

[quote="ExtraT"]I'm not going to comment on much of the stuff that has been said around here. In any case, it seems that, as always, the antisemitic side has a tremendous attention span problem.
[quote]

my background is lebanese. Now the last time I checked arabs are semites. So dont go around calling me anti-semite.

As to palestinians they've been there for who knows how long. Remeber Goliath the Philistine?

[Javehn]

Palestinians ( or rather , Pelishtins ) , was nation that lived in land of Israel something like 4000 years ago , among with other 7 nations . They despapeared with time in fighting . The last remains of them assimulated amongst jews , arabs , and greeks more then 2000 years ago .

Israel was called by Britain rule Palestine . Palestinians was the name for jews just like for arabs that lived in Israel pre 47 !! The Palestinian arabs didn't even had national entity before the 60's .

As for Profet "Yusha" (After a long time i understood whom you talking about . Jehoshua) , well .. rofl rofl . I think there are better fitted forums for you . I just found couple of them on the net today . Seems you taking your info directly from there . What's your source of info anyway ,sence you living in Canada?

[ExtraT]

my background is lebanese. Now the last time I checked arabs are semites. So dont go around calling me anti-semite.

You really are an idiot, arent you? Before soiling yourself like that, go look up the word "antisemite". for example here:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=anti-Semite

As for the word "palestine", it was introduced by the Romans after destruction of the Second Temple, and applied only to the geographical area. They did it on purpose, to try and destroy all memory of a Jewish state in the area. The term "palestinian", in application to arabs, was invented by the Soviets in 1960s. So, "palestinian people" do not exist.

[[AFSOC]]

And bull**** them....most of the palstinian peoples support the terror...the terroists are heros there.

Prove it...cause stereotyping people is always accurate;)

Why do you think these people support Hamas and ****. Because ISRAEL goes around killing these innocent people, destroying there homes, there children...blada blada. Its a friggin cycle someone has to stop and break the cycle or the killing will never stop.

Israel should be the one to stop, im not ssaying Israel should just drop there weapons....i hope you understand what i mean.

[Mr. Nielsen]

So, "palestinian people" do not exist.

Isn't that Golda Meir's infamous remark?

[TALOS]

my background is lebanese. Now the last time I checked arabs are semites. So dont go around calling me anti-semite.

You really are an idiot, arent you? Before soiling yourself like that, go look up the word "antisemite". for example here:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=anti-Semite


Regardless a semite is not exclusively Jewish, arabs in that region are also semitic, that was the only point he was making.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/s/s0258700.html

[ExtraT]

Regardless a semite is not exclusively Jewish, arabs in that region are also semitic, that was the only point he was making.


No, the point he was making, is that he can't be called "anti-semite" because he, himself is a of semitic origin.
However he is not correct about that. Historically, the word "anti-semite" doesn't mean "hater of semites" but "hater of Jews". It has to do with how the word was created: it was first introduced in europe in the end of 19th century by anti-jewish actists. At the time, since arabs were virtually non-existant in europe, the meaning of the word was self evident.

Modern anti-semites that like to hide behind anti-Israel rhetoric, often use this excuse when they are called anti-semites. This way, they try to denounce existance of anti-semitism altogeather. Essencially, these people are scum.

[ExtraT]

Isn't that Golda Meir's infamous remark?

Perhapse. Golda Meir said a lot of interesting things. For example:

"We will have peace with Arabs when they will start loving their children more than they hate us"

How beautifully true, isn't it?

[ExtraT]

]

Prove it...cause stereotyping people is always accurate;)



Proofs of this fact are abundant. For example, in recent times there were several polls in PA territory, in which majority supported terrorism.



Why do you think these people support Hamas and ****.


Very simple: "Palestinians" are an artificial entity, a whole people created and bred for a single purpose - destruction of Israel. The arab states keep them in appauling conditions, breed them in huge numbers and brainwash them from diapers to hate Jews. Where do you think all these suicide bombers come from? Walmart?



Because ISRAEL goes around killing these innocent people, destroying there homes, there children...blada blada.


Blada-blada-blada-blada-blada-blada...
Poor little "palestinians": evil jews force them to use their own civilian population as a shield. :roll:

BTW, usage of civilians as a shield is a common Arab practice, I've had personal experience with that in Lebanon: Hisbullah would set up their artillery inside villages, so that Israel couldn't return fire. In international military law, this constitutes a war crime, it's called "hostage taking".



Israel should be the one to stop,


Israel has already stopped many times. The "palestinians" time and again showed their true aspirations.



im not ssaying Israel should just drop there weapons....

Then what are you saying? How exactly do you envision sessation of violence in the area? Or, maybe you don't know any specifics, and are just blabbering about things that you don't know **** about?

The Israeli-Arab conflict is a HUGE and extremely complex problem. More so, peace agreements with "palestinians", creation of "palestinian state", etc.. ARE NOT GOING TO SOLVE IT. Even if "palestinians" get what they, allegedly, want (a state), there will still be a demographical problem, because they multiply like rabbits (it's part of their strategy against Israel, BTW). In the areas under their control they already overloaded the land's resources. Gaza is already the most densly populated place in the world, in 20 years it will become a catastrophy.

[Mr. Nielsen]

Very simple: "Palestinians" are an artificial entity, a whole people created and bred for a single purpose - destruction of Israel. The arab states keep them in appauling conditions, breed them in huge numbers and brainwash them from diapers to hate Jews. Where do you think all these suicide bombers come from? Walmart?


Try replacing Palestinians with jews in that passage. That passage sounds like nazi rhetoric.



The Israeli-Arab conflict is a HUGE and extremely complex problem. More so, peace agreements with "palestinians", creation of "palestinian state", etc.. ARE NOT GOING TO SOLVE IT.

Huge and complex compared to what? The Chinese in Tibet? The Kurdish problem? Kosovo? In contrast to those, the Palestinan-Israeli conflict can be solved along the lines of international law and UN resolutions.

[Mr. Nielsen]

Even if "palestinians" get what they, allegedly, want (a state), there will still be a demographical problem, because they multiply like rabbits (it's part of their strategy against Israel, BTW).

Religious jews have quite many children too, do they not? Again please leave out the nazi rhetoric.

[TALOS]

Huge and complex compared to what? The Chinese in Tibet? The Kurdish problem? Kosovo? In contrast to those, the Palestinan-Israeli conflict can be solved along the lines of international law and UN resolutions.

Ok Mr Nielsen, Im curious, in contrast it can be solved ..HOW?
how do you propose it be settled? Just curious cuz "the Arab Nations" (I know this is generalized but most if not practically all have stated this)have said they do not and will not recognize a jewish state, their avowed intent is to eliminate Israel as an entity.
I'm curious, how do they resolve it? What do you propose that makes you think that this is easier than tibet, the kurds and the others?

[ExtraT]

Try replacing Palestinians with jews in that passage. That passage sounds like nazi rhetoric.


No, I'm afraid you are wrong. If you do that, then you will just get a false, uncorroborated statement, because Jews clearly have a confirmed 5 thousand year-long history, while "palestinians" have NO HISTORY AT ALL prior to 1960s. Before that, the word "palestinian" even had a different meaning.
Now, if I were to say that arabs are a genetically inferior subspecies and need to be exterminated or, at best, used as slaves - that would have been nazi rhetoric.

The point is, that these people are being used by Arab countries as cannon fodder in their continuing war against Israel. Anybody put in conditions they live in would become what they have become. BTW, the conditions of "palestinians" on the terrritories controlled by Israel is far better than, for example, in the refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon, etc.. And they were even better before the whole "peace process" began, and Arafat was brought back to rule them.


In contrast to those, the Palestinan-Israeli conflict can be solved along the lines of international law and UN resolutions.

In this passage you show your complete ignorance of the issue. The conflict is NOT between Israelis and "palestinians" it's between Israel and the whole Arab world, "palesinians" are simply a tool, a means to an end. Prior to 1960s Arabs thought they will solve it by military means, but they failed. Then, with the help of USSR, they invented "palestinians" as a means to blow Israel from the inside (demographically). Since then they were rewriting history, falsifying facts and brainwashing the whole world into beleiveing that "palestinians" have any legal claim on the land. They even managed to label the 6-day war as "Israeli aggression". I must say, the Western world has shown itself to be quite gullible, and now it's beginning to pay for this gullibility.

And about the UN resolutions: I wouldn't even consider heeding to a resolution proposed, drawn and voted for by the very people who are at war with me. If that's the way they do things in Denmark, then that's your own problem. I doubt it, though, because such stupidity is incompatible with life :)
Besides, Arab sountries never heed to UN resolutions that they don't like.
Did Lebanon stop attacks against northern Israel, as per UN resolution? No. Have Arabs countries permitted creation of an Arab state side by side with Israel in 1948? No, they occupied it instead. There are many more examples of that. Frankly, I think that Israel has to cancel it's membership in the UN - this degenerate organization has been heavily biased against Israel throughout it's entire existance. On some occasions, they even violated their own resolutions.



Religious jews have quite many children too, do they not? Again please leave out the nazi rhetoric.


Families with more than 3 children are a minority among Jewish population of Israel. In fact, to maintain majority of Jews (after all, it's a Jewish State), Israel heavily relied on immigrants. At the same time, most Arab families have 10 or more children. If you don't beleive me, I can find official UN statistics about that for you.

And, to top it off, a known quote of Arafat:
"Our biggest weapon against zionists is the womb of a palestinian woman."
How's that for rhetoric?


And now, about nazi rhetoric.
I'm sick of people throwing this accusation every time they hear something that doesn't go well with their single-minded beleifs. At the same time, these same people routinely apply special standards to (among others) the State of Israel, denying it's right to defend it's citizens, and it's right for existance. People like these are the modern nazis, at least in the sence that they are dragging the world into the next world war.

[One?]

better than, for example, in the refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon

Aren't 45% of jordanians originaly palestinians.


No, I'm afraid you are wrong. If you do that, then you will just get a false, uncorroborated statement, because Jews clearly have a confirmed 5 thousand year-long history, while "palestinians" have NO HISTORY AT ALL prior to 1960s.

rofl rofl

For well over 2000 years, the land was called Palestine and its inhabitants, the Palestinians, and by the rest of the world. Any search of textbooks published before Israel was established will reveal this very clearly. The issue of nationalism requires some comment. The Philistines settled in the land of Canaan around 1250 BC, establishing 5 kingdoms: Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Gath, and Ekron. It was from the Philistines that Palestine received its name. Since Roman times, this land has been known as Palestine. The Palestinians of today, Muslims and Christians, trace their descent to all the peoples who have lived on this land from the time of the Canaanites. Natives in Palestine (who happen to speak Arabic and hold religions such as Bahai, Christian, Muslim, Jewish) like all native people anywhere in the world. In their natural state over thousands of years, they identified themselves with their villages, tribes and languages but not necessarily a nation in the modern sense of the 20th century. Arab nationalism was bolstered to counteract Ottoman empire and Palestinian nationalism is part of the nationalism and development of new countries all over the previous colonial empires in Africa and Asia (witness Kenya or Tanzania or Nigeria, none of them had nationalism as seen today a hundred years ago).



In this passage you show your complete ignorance of the issue. The conflict is NOT between Israelis and "palestinians" it's between Israel and the whole Arab world, "palesinians" are simply a tool, a means to an end

the only ignorant is you. Because the rest of the arab world is fighting for the rights of the palestinians.


Since then they were rewriting history, falsifying facts and brainwashing the whole world into beleiveing that "palestinians" have any legal claim on the land

So lets see, what gives the british the legal claim on their land? What gives americans legal claim on their land? What gives the french a legal claim of their land?

Palestinians are canaanites and a mix of other tribes and nations. They lived there before the jews even showed up.


And about the UN resolutions: I wouldn't even consider heeding to a resolution proposed, drawn and voted for by the very people who are at war with me. If that's the way they do things in Denmark, then that's your own problem. I doubt it, though, because such stupidity is incompatible with life

So all 150 + countries are at war with you?


Families with more than 3 children are a minority among Jewish population of Israel. In fact, to maintain majority of Jews (after all, it's a Jewish State), Israel heavily relied on immigrants. At the same time, most Arab families have 10 or more children. If you don't beleive me, I can find official UN statistics about that for you.

If you cant procreate whose problem is that? And your facts are wrong not all arabs have a minimum of 10 children.



And now, about nazi rhetoric.
I'm sick of people throwing this accusation every time they hear something that doesn't go well with their single-minded beleifs. At the same time, these same people routinely apply special standards to (among others) the State of Israel, denying it's right to defend it's citizens, and it's right for existance. People like these are the modern nazis, at least in the sence that they are dragging the world into the next world war.

I will answer what you said with this (a collection of pictures)
http://www.iap.org/jewspal.htm

[ExtraT]

Aren't 45% of jordanians originaly palestinians.


You can call them "palestinians" if you like, becase the territory of Jordan is part of the geographical area called Palestine. So the logical conlusion of that is - there already is one "palestinian state", if you are a "palestinian", go live there. :)



For well over 2000 years, the land was called Palestine and its inhabitants, the Palestinians, and by the rest of the world.....
....


What you've written here is a complete piece of crap. There is no support fo that version in history, archeology or anywhere for that matter.
And yes, the term "palestinian" existed prior to 1960s, but it meant something radically different: a resident of Palestine - Arab, Turk, Jew, Druze, etc... In 1960s this term was changed to address Arabs EXCLUSIVELY.

You know, I have a great idea for you: Why don't you record yourself reading this passage of yours in soft mesmerizing voice, and put it as a soundtrack for the propaganda movies that started this thread? Put all the **** in one place, so to speak? rofl



... the rest of the arab world is fighting for the rights of the palestinians.


Really? They are fighting for their rights? How? Let's see:
In 1948, when these people got 2 countries to live in, the arab world launched an aggression on both, occupying one, and invading the other. In the process, they ordered the people to leave their homes, to become refugees. Some left, some stayed. Those that stayed, became Israeli citizens with full rights and reduced responsabilitites - a priviledged minority. Those that left were put into refugee camps, where they still remain today.
So, which of their human rights are the Arab nations fight for? The right to become cannon fodder for their territorial appetites?



So all 150 + countries are at war with you?


No. But 40+ are, and the rest like oil too much.



If you cant procreate whose problem is that?


Of course we can procreate. But we are people that care about our children, and when we bring them into the world we think about their future, their education, their life in general. We don't think of them as soldiers in a holy cause to rid the world of all infidel.



And your facts are wrong not all arabs have a minimum of 10 children.


You are right. Arab citizens f Israel have, on average, 6 children per family.



I will answer what you said with this (a collection of pictures)
http://www.iap.org/jewspal.htm

You are really proud of this comparison, right? However, there is a pair of pictures that is missing from this list: a picture of a mass grave of jews, killed in a gas chamber (that, BTW, is what happened to most of the people in pictures in the left column), and a similair picture of an Arab mass grave. It must be really disappointing to the likes of you that such a picture is nowhere to be found, that every single attempt to provoke Israeli soldiers to commit a massacre, or to falsify one ("The Jenin Massacre(s)" ) have failed, it would have strengthened your case considerably. Poor you. :roll:

[One?]

Extra I will keep my reply short because you actualy showed me your beliefes.


You believe that all palestinians should be sent to Jordan, so you don't want peace but you want war. Then you come on here and say that palestinians want to kill you. Well ofcourse if you believe they should all be sent to jordan then they will fight you.

[Mr. Nielsen]

...Israeli soldiers to commit a massacre, or to falsify one ("The Jenin Massacre(s)" ) have failed, it would have strengthened your case considerably. Poor you. :roll:

I guess it depends on how many people it takes to make a massacre. The Jenin massacre story, by the way, started when Israeli officers started bragging about killing hundreds of palestinians there. But as it turned out, most of the people had already fled the camp so only about 25 civilians died together with another 25 who had defended their homes.

That the Israeli army haven't killed more people in the three years I think there is at least two reasons for. One being that Israel after all more or less is a democracy, with media coverage.

[ExtraT]

Extra...


It's ExtraT for you.



You believe that all palestinians should be sent to Jordan


As I repeatedly said, I don't beleive in "palestinians". As for Arabs - they have to live in Arab countries. After all, Arab countries deported all their Jews, why can't a Jewish country deport all of it's Arabs? Especially if these Arabs are belligirent?


so you don't want peace but you want war.

You seem to be very sure of what I want. Are you sure about what YOU want? Can you reveal it to the masses, or it's not "politically correct"?

And one more thing. There is a saying:
"Fighting for peace is like f$cking for virginity".

I'm realistic, I don't expect to live in peace with people who consistently show their intolerance towards me. All I want is to live in SECURITY, to prevent them from disrupting my life, and the life of my children. Now that is worth fighting for.

[One?]

you scare me haha


You seem to be very sure of what I want. Are you sure about what YOU want? Can you reveal it to the masses, or it's not "politically correct"?

You could chek the thread in the other section, I already said what I wanted.


You don't believe in palestinians because your a racist bastard, that lacks knowledge of history and likes to distort and make up his own facts :P

[ExtraT]

The Jenin massacre story, by the way, started when Israeli officers started bragging about killing hundreds of palestinians there.


No, the Jenin story started with PA officials bragging about a thousand civilians who got massacred in Jenin, mass graves, and so on. As much as you'd like to picture IDF soldiers as ruthless animals, they are just normal professional soldiers, who take their work very seriously. And they certainly don't brag about killing anyone.



But as it turned out, most of the people had already fled the camp so only about 25 civilians died together with another 25 who had defended their homes.


A very interesting approach to dfend homes, minig them with explosives. :roll: And then complaining that the homes got destroyed :lol:



That the Israeli army haven't killed more people in the three years I think there is at least two reasons for. One being that Israel after all more or less is a democracy, with media coverage.

The Israeli army didn't kill more people because the Israeli army doesn't kill people indiscriminantly. This, of course, is a byproduct of a democratic society.

[ExtraT]

you scare me


And you DON'T scare me! :) Bring it on!!!!! :bash:



...your a racist bastard, that lacks knowledge of history and likes to distort and make up his own facts

And you are a martian green man that abducts people to probe their asses. :lol:

[One?]

...your a racist bastard, that lacks knowledge of history and likes to distort and make up his own facts

And you are a martian green man that abducts people to probe their asses. :lol:


how old are you again? 10?

[[AFSOC]]

Ok....anything that is said against Israel you Israeli members get soo mad and then say Palestine is soo evil. blada blada blada.....this cycle will never end.

Allz i have to say is that "an eye for eye makes the world blind"

I aint even gunna waste my time arguing with someone soo ignorant like yourself extra. Its your opinions and i respect that but they are a foolish belief.

When will the killing stop?

[UkrainianAmerican]

...your a racist bastard, that lacks knowledge of history and likes to distort and make up his own facts

And you are a martian green man that abducts people to probe their asses. :lol:


how old are you again? 10?
I dont know how old ExtraT is, but hes arguing skills sure are superior to yours, since his arguments (GASP!) make effing sense.

[One?]

...your a racist bastard, that lacks knowledge of history and likes to distort and make up his own facts

And you are a martian green man that abducts people to probe their asses. :lol:


how old are you again? 10?
I dont know how old ExtraT is, but hes arguing skills sure are superior to yours, since his arguments (GASP!) make effing sense.

yup, you're right. because all he says is "palestine doesn't exist", "palestinians do not exist", "palestinians should be sent to jordan".

[UkrainianAmerican]

...your a racist bastard, that lacks knowledge of history and likes to distort and make up his own facts

And you are a martian green man that abducts people to probe their asses. :lol:


how old are you again? 10?
I dont know how old ExtraT is, but hes arguing skills sure are superior to yours, since his arguments (GASP!) make effing sense.

yup, you're right. because all he says is "palestine doesn't exist", "palestinians do not exist", "palestinians should be sent to jordan".
rofl
Sums up the situation perfectly IMHO.

[army cadet_ngcsu]

I like it how afghaniboi's picture under his name is a child with an AK 47, do you people not have any respect for the sanctity of human life and especially for that of a child?!?!?! For ****s sake, all you Muslims do is bitch and moan about how the world is so mean to you and how everyone mistreats you, I'm tired of it!

[One?]

I like it how afghaniboi's picture under his name is a child with an AK 47, do you people not have any respect for the sanctity of human life and especially for that of a child?!?!?! For f*** sake, all you Muslims do is bitch and moan about how the world is so mean to you and how everyone mistreats you, I'm tired of it!


what about columbine? what about all the school shootings that took place in the states?

Weren't these kids with guns.

[StarvingStudent47]

what about columbine? what about all the school shootings that took place in the states?

Weren't these kids with guns.

Do you see anyone using pictures of Klebold and Harris (the Columbine murderers) as their AVATAR though? No, those two are considered at best "psychotic mistakes of nature" and at worst "brutal murderers who deserve to burn in Hell." They are not held up as role models.

For the record, I don't really care what AfghanBoi uses as an avatar, but the Columbine massacre was very close to home. That's where my emotion comes from on this topic.

[One?]

I was refering to kids with guns. As to why he has this in his avatar I have no clue.

[UkrainianAmerican]

I like it how afghaniboi's picture under his name is a child with an AK 47, do you people not have any respect for the sanctity of human life and especially for that of a child?!?!?! For f*** sake, all you Muslims do is bitch and moan about how the world is so mean to you and how everyone mistreats you, I'm tired of it!


what about columbine? what about all the school shootings that took place in the states?

Weren't these kids with guns.
How clueless can you get?
:bash:

[TALOS]

I like it how afghaniboi's picture under his name is a child with an AK 47, do you people not have any respect for the sanctity of human life and especially for that of a child?!?!?! For f*** sake, all you Muslims do is bitch and moan about how the world is so mean to you and how everyone mistreats you, I'm tired of it!


what about columbine? what about all the school shootings that took place in the states?

Weren't these kids with guns.
It embarrasses me that some canadians hate americans so much that they use stupid references like this.
Americans do not tout these armed kids as heroes, in Arab media and propaganda these kids are put in the front of the lines and touted as martyrs when they die... they even dress their kids up like suicide bombers in some festivals( I will look for the pictures)
One... how could you even remotely equate the two situations as the same?

[ExtraT]

how old are you again? 10?

No, I'm 11. :) When I served in South Lebanon I was just 5. If you are intelligent enough, and have a clue about Israeli reality (which you definitely don't) then you can figure out my true age.

BTW, you are from Lebanon, right? Are you a Christian or a Muslim? I have a personal bet on that question, and want to see if I'm correct. :)

P.S. About your signature:


"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"


You are fatally mistaken. A terrorist is ALWAYS a terrorist. As they say in Russian:
"A humpback can be healed only by a grave"

Same with terrorists :)

[One?]

It embarrasses me that some canadians hate americans so much that they use stupid references like this.
Americans do not tout these armed kids as heroes, in Arab media and propaganda these kids are put in the front of the lines and touted as martyrs when they die... they even dress their kids up like suicide bombers in some festivals( I will look for the pictures)
One... how could you even remotely equate the two situations as the same?

I do not hate americans. He was saying that afhganshinobi has a picture of a kid with an AK, as if only afghans do so, and no one else.


A couple of days ago there were pictures on this forum showing israeli kids holding and playing with guns. And I know what picture you are refering too you don't have to find it.

And kids are not on the front lines, I don't know how you could support that information.

[ExtraT]

And kids are not on the front lines, I don't know how you could support that information.

Excuse me? Are you on crack or something? And where are all these kids that throw stones on tanks and APCs? Safe at home maybe? And that's just one example. There tons of documented cases where "palestinian" snipers use stone-throwing children as a human shield to fire from behind. There are even cases of children being shot by these snipers, to later clame that they were killed by IDF soldiers. Wake up, man! Or, at least, don't insult our intelligence!

[TALOS]

And kids are not on the front lines, I don't know how you could support that information.

You arent serious are you? The kids throwin stones and attacking israeli patrols while the gunmen sit in the background taking careful shots at the Israeli troops.
Look, I am not an Israeli but I do see what goes on, they arent always right and they do stupid things sometimes too. But they dont condone it as a nation when their troops step over the line.
I havent seen the same reaction from Palestinians and even Canadians for that matter. It bothers me is all when I see news reports of palestinians and others, including canadians, condoning or excusing the actions of the terrorists. " Oh they are just defending their land" Jeekus brother, they just blew up a bus full of civilians! (becuz I already know someone is gonna ask about the bus, I am using the previous attacks on civilian busses as an example)

[One?]

And kids are not on the front lines, I don't know how you could support that information.

You arent serious are you? The kids throwin stones and attacking israeli patrols while the gunmen sit in the background taking careful shots at the Israeli troops.
Look, I am not an Israeli but I do see what goes on, they arent always right and they do stupid things sometimes too. But they dont condone it as a nation when their troops step over the line.
I havent seen the same reaction from Palestinians and even Canadians for that matter. It bothers me is all when I see news reports of palestinians and others, including canadians, condoning or excusing the actions of the terrorists. " Oh they are just defending their land" Jeekus brother, they just blew up a bus full of civilians! (becuz I already know someone is gonna ask about the bus, I am using the previous attacks on civilian busses as an example)

Let some of the IDF soldeirs on this site tell you if kids are put in the front lines while gunmen take shots at them. I said this before YOU CANNOT CONTROL the actions of children. Those children are frustrated, mad, angry they will do anything to end the occupation. Mostly throwing rocks happens on borders, protests etc... While gunmen go on the streets when there is a raid, an israeli operation, or they are attacking a settlement or whatever.

The PA has condemned every single attack carried out against Israel. No one is saying blowing up busses is OK, or at least I never said that.

[ExtraT]

]Ok....anything that is said against Israel you Israeli members get soo mad and then say Palestine is soo evil.


We are civilized people, we can listen to constructive cryticism. But we have long time since stopped tolerating antisemitic lies. 2000 years of discrimination and killing will do that to a people.



Allz i have to say is that "an eye for eye makes the world blind"


Who's talking about "an eye for an eye"? We don't have time for "an eye for an eye" :| When we win this war, round up all the murderers and put them on trial for crimes against humanity, then we'll talk about "an eye for an eye". Or, better yet, "a neck for any part of the body"



Its your opinions and i respect that but they are a foolish belief.


The problem with people like you is, that you beleive your own lies. For example, you sencerely believe that you respect my opinion. If you were to respect my opinion, you would at least try to investigate it alittle, check if it's really true, study the subject etc. However, you don't want to do that, you just call me a foolish fanatic.

Tell me, why would you respect beliefs of a foolish fanatic? Are you stupid or something? Or are you just lying?

[ExtraT]

I said this before YOU CANNOT CONTROL the actions of children.

You really are on crack, aren't you?
Oh, sorry, I forgot :oops: - you don't have trouble procreating, so "one child more, one child less, who cares? We'll just go make some more", right?
:bash:



The PA has condemned every single attack carried out against Israel.


Yep. Condemned. In English only. rofl
At the same time, in Arabic, they glorify "martyrs" on TV, sell postcards with their photos as collectibles for children (similair to hockey players in Canada), teach them to hate Jews (Yes, JEWS, NOT ISRAELIS) in schools.
Also, mothers of the murderers, praising the deeds of their sons. I, personally, can't even imagine a Jewish (American, Canadian, Russian) mother happy over her son's death, however "glorious", but for "palestinians" it's normal. Of course it is, because "Our best weapon against zionists is the womb of a palestinian woman". :roll:


No one is saying blowing up busses is OK, or at least I never said that.

You never said that (it's not "politically correct"), but you definetly meant that. C'est la vie, my friend: If you support "palestinian cause" in it's present form (and you obviously do), then you also support and promote acts of terrorism that come with it. You'll have to live with that burden, if it is really a burden for you.

[UkrainianAmerican]

[quote=One]


BTW, you are from Lebanon, right? Are you a Christian or a Muslim? I have a personal bet on that question, and want to see if I'm correct. :)


As far as I know most Lebanese christians are not very fond of their "palestinian brothers", so that should answer your question ;)

[UoUo]

Little oftopic...(like the rest of the posts.. :lol: )

But i still can't see why they brothers from Egept Jordan and the list goes On...why can't they supply the pal' water...power....phones...and so on...
why the "evil" zionists have to supply them all that ?

[ExtraT]

As far as I know most Lebanese christians are not very fond of their "palestinian brothers"...

You'd be surprised ;)

[army cadet_ngcsu]

Oh my God, if you are comparing the Columbine shooters to those of "future martyrs" of Islam, you are a retard. In no way shape or form do we Americans hold any of these high school losers as heros. We do not put them on the front of magazines or cheer them on in parades as heros. Neither the U.S. or any other westernized democracy have suicide training camps for children of all ages.

In regard to those pictures that you saw where you THOUGHT that Israeli kids were carrying guns or some bull **** like that, it was actually a father with an assault rifle playing with his child. He has that assault rifle because he lives in a tiny village on the outskirts of Israel where Palestinian terrorists attack. If it was not from hostile forces he would not have to protect himself and his family from danger.

[TALOS]

Little oftopic...(like the rest of the posts.. :lol: )

But i still can't see why they brothers from Egept Jordan and the list goes On...why can't they supply the pal' water...power....phones...and so on...
why the "evil" zionists have to supply them all that ?
Hm good point, these are oil rich Arab nations and yet they actually apparently have refused to aid the Palestinians beyond giving them weapons to war with. I dont get that.

[UkrainianAmerican]

As far as I know most Lebanese christians are not very fond of their "palestinian brothers"...

You'd be surprised ;)
I have a lebanese-christian classmate, and he is more pro-israeli/anti-palestinian then most jews I know p-)

[One?]

As far as I know most Lebanese christians are not very fond of their "palestinian brothers"...

You'd be surprised ;)
I have a lebanese-christian classmate, and he is more pro-israeli/anti-palestinian then most jews I know p-)


its not surprising :) but is the love mutual?

Anyways im a lebanese muslim. Muslims joined the SLA and christians also joined the SLA. But that doesn't mean all lebanese christians are pro-isreal. Orthodox and some catholic christians held key positions in militias and parties that fought the Israelis in lebanon, such as the SSNP.

[UkrainianAmerican]

As far as I know most Lebanese christians are not very fond of their "palestinian brothers"...

You'd be surprised ;)
I have a lebanese-christian classmate, and he is more pro-israeli/anti-palestinian then most jews I know p-)


its not surprising :) but is the love mutual?

Anyways im a lebanese muslim. Muslims joined the SLA and christians also joined the SLA. But that doesn't mean all lebanese christians are pro-isreal. Orthodox and some catholic christians held key positions in militias and parties that fought the Israelis in lebanon, such as the SSNP.

No doubt about it, but percentage wise I would assume that Lebanese Christianse are somewhat more objective as a whole, if only because of the fact that they weresnt as brainwashed/incited by all-islamic terror recruiters/inciters

[Javehn]

SSNP ? Who is that fish ? Care to ellaborate ?Isn't those the "Sayara" fighters that you talked about before ? You have more of those movies perhaps ?

[ExtraT]

From what I know it's a Syria-funded movement. Basically, they want to integrate Lebanon into Syria.

[One?]

SSNP ? Who is that fish ? Care to ellaborate ?Isn't those the "Sayara" fighters that you talked about before ? You have more of those movies perhaps ?

SSNP: Syrian Social Nationalist Party
The leader and the founder was a maronite christian, and most of the members are christians. They want to bring back "Great Syria" as it was before the psykes-picho agreement. Which included, jordan, lebanon, syria, and palestine.


From what I know it's a Syria-funded movement. Basically, they want to integrate Lebanon into Syria.

They are not funded by syria because they are banned in syria due to the last coup that happened I think back in the 50's.

So please don't make up your own facts. Thank you.


Javehn: That was the only movie taken by the saraya for some reason. I couldnt find any other movies on the website sorry. :(

[ExtraT]

... please don't make up your own facts.


Oh, how I wish you have applied this rule to yourself from time to time.

[Dr Gang]

As to palestinians they've been there for who knows how long. Remeber Goliath the Philistine?

So i guess it allows me to ask you about who was David, since he was there too ?

Another thing, the palestinians aren't the children of the phillistines. This territory has been called Palestine because, among others, phillistines used to live there, on the coast, where Gaza is now. Then, the arabs who settled there got their name from the land.
You just inverted the events, that may happen...

[maynard]

There seems to be a lot of anger here, so I decided to post my fool-proof solution to the problem in the middle-east.
First I would like to post some statements which I think are true but are not sure of. If someone (perhaps an Israeli citizen?) knows the truth, please post and correct me if I am wrong.

Golan Heights is technically owned by Syria but in fact fully controlled by Israel, right?
Same goes for the West Bank, but replace Syria with Egypt, right?
And the same goes for the Gaza strip, but replace Syria with Jordan?
I have also read somewhere that the city of Jerusalem also belonged to Jordan.
Furthermore, I have read that sometime in the 70s or 80s, not sure when, the king of Jordan receded the parts of Jordan which are under Israeli control to "the palestinian people", whoever they might be.

Now, my solution is this: Take a country which is very strong military and not afraid to retaliate if they are attacked. This could be for instance the USA, or perhaps China. One might argue that China is not military strong, but I disagree. A country which can produce 300 million able-bodied soldiers between 20-30 years old is not to be underestimated.

Then: Launch a military operation to take control of Jerusalem. After it's been done, evacuate all the civilians from the city. Put them somewhere else, it does not really matter.

Stage 2 of the operation: Burn the city to the ground, blow all the buildings up, do whatever it takes to destroy it. When it is only desert left you are done.

The peace-process part of the operation:

Build an enormous wall around the Israeli borders. When I write the Israeli borders I mean the pre-1967 borders. I don't understand why Israel would want anything to do with the Gaza strip et al. Once the wall is finished, make sure that the people who belong on the other side of the wall in fact are on that side of the wall.

Now you have three small areas with basically no infrastructure what so ever, and the people are very poor. Therefore, I suggest that Russia quickly donate huge sums to the people living in these areas (Gaza strip, West Bank and Golan Heights.) and send workers down there to build hospitals, water-cleaningplants (What is the real word for that?) and whatever. Why Russia you ask? Well, I think it's time they actually paid something back for all those huge loans they took during the 70's, 80's and the 90's.

Now, politics. The first thing to do is to put Arafat in jail. He's always been a terrorist. The second thing is to put someone else in power. Just pick anyone who is palestinian arab and very pro-peace. Then have the russians give him 2 billion US $. Make him run for president, using his money on his campaign. Hire one of those american campaign-guys.

Once he's in power, give him a little bit more money, tell him to bribe the parliament. Once the parliament is bribed, lend him troops and let him use them to kill all those god damned terrorist-groups. This will of course cause an outrage with a minority of the population, but the majority does not really care, because they are too busy starting businesses and buying things for the money the russians gave them.

When 4 years have gone by, he will of course be re-elected because even the most stupid of people can realise that they are much richer now than they were before he became president, right? That it was the russians who gave them the money does not matter.

Now, when the people actually have money and is starting to enjoy their life, they will stop the suicide-bombings and such, because they have become too fond of life. And they can not claim that Jerusalem should belong to the arabs, because Jerusalem does not exist anymore.

I think I should send this to Chirac, he might be interested in this.

[Dr Gang]

]Ok....anything that is said against Israel you Israeli members get soo mad and then say Palestine is soo evil. blada blada blada.....this cycle will never end.

Allz i have to say is that "an eye for eye makes the world blind"

I aint even gunna waste my time arguing with someone soo ignorant like yourself extra. Its your opinions and i respect that but they are a foolish belief.

When will the killing stop?

Mate, who's for war in this forum ? Who said "i want more war, deaths and suffering" ?
No one if you carefully read.
There ain't warlovers in this forum but only people with various solutions, some you may think some may cause more war but that's subjective. If there was a solution that pleased everyone, do you think we'd be arguing like that ?
Don't be naive about all this, saying in goodwill "when will the killing stop" is not enough, you have to ask yourself why there is killing, why peace can't be reached, who's preventing it from happening.
Thinking the way you do is just the best way to reward terrorists and violence : if someone shoots you or your relatives, don't react cause it feeds the cycle of violence. What will the shooter learn from that ? That it can shoot you and fear nothing in return, why would he stop then ?
Read what i wrote further in the post, you'll see why violence is not the point here but hatred IS.
Violence requires hatred and a way to perform violence, to cut down on violence, 2 solutions : either eradicate hatred or prevent them from having a way to perform it. Israelis can prevent them, by doing what they do right now (everyday a bomber is arrested, averagely) but it won't stop hatred, maybe it even encourages it.
Now let's picture this : israeli soldiers won't make blockades and checkpoints, palestinians can enter Israel to work as they did before. Do you think there won't be a bombing in the minutes following the lift of the checkpoints ? Now let's go on like that : Israel won't react, it was to be expected, there will be bombings but let's go on with the confidence process, let's move on with peace. Are you the one who's gonna tell the families of the deads "I know you're sad but they have to express their anger against us, it's fair, this will eventually stop" ?
How much bombings do you allow before you'll start thinking "Hey ! This won't stop !" ? Of course you can't just let things happen that way, of course you must set up checkpoints, of course you must keep them out of Israel. It's so obvious !
There's currently no acceptable limit to the damage a terrorist can do to Israel, or to you, or to anyone. The limit is zero, it can't be reached but you'd be guilty, even criminal if you don't do all it takes to protect yourself and the people you care about.
And you know the best part ? The best part is that IT HAPPENED ! Israel lifted sanctions for some times in the past year, the sanction was immediate : bombings. It still happens now if you carefully read the news, you'll see that a easing on the life conditions of the palestinians always ends up in a bombing.
So i must conclude that hatred doesn't come from checkpoints and blockade only since even their lifting doesn't provide peace.
Guess what creates hatred... EDUCATION, bingo !



I was refering to kids with guns. As to why he has this in his avatar I have no clue.

You're trying to dodge the point here, thinking it's worth something to use this pic as an avatar is precisely what we reproach muslims with : glorification of war/death/sacrifice over any other value. And this even in the most trivial occasions, like this avatar thing.
When, in occidental societies, we try to keep weapons away from kids and more generally we try to keep kids away from danger, death or violence, the opposite happens in the muslim world.
You tried to use an example that actually won't serve your cause here : the Columbine shootings. It caused a massive trauma in the USA, will it change the legislation about weapons, probably not, but in no way it's been shown to the audience as a glorious event. Actually, violence in general has a bad reputation in occidental/democratic countries.
In the USA, at least there's a Michael Moore, there are pacifist movements, in Israel, there are historians like Ilan Greilsammer, Benny Morris, there are associations like B'tselem, the Women in black to keep an eye open on what is wrong in their respective society and they get audience, they're listened to, they're cared about. Their palestinian counterparts usually don't exist or don't have a word to say in the public debate. Once again, it tells it all.

It doesn't always take 100% of a population to say "they all ...." but there are numerous speeches, news report about how muslims and, in our case palestinians who say they're proud their kids go out there sending stones while some others, hidden behind the harmless ones, fire with an AK, there has been numerous programs broadcasted on palestinian TVs of kids singing songs glorifying martyrdom, saying they'd give their lives for arafat, there are people putting a (fake?) explosive belt around their babies belly. You can't just say this is propaganda made by Israel or partial medias, these images exist, they're popular, they reflect something that is deep in the muslim culture. The fact that they're shown on TV also clearly shows what is the objective to achieve : making examples that are to be followed. Is it what you'd call a way of making peace, can you sign an agreement with the enemy while you raised your people in hatred and anger ?
Why can't the PA fight the terrorist groups ? Precisely because they became too popular to be fought, more popular than the PA itself, because of corruption and inefficency, because people carry so much hate in their hearts that a speech about peace gets no audience, but a hamas demonstration with weapons, slogans about allah, about the virgins waiting in heaven, about how they want to destroy the "zionist entity" gathers thousands. The PA dug its own grave, when they say peace can't be signed because of the israeli raids that kill palestinians (again, what palestinians ? Do they aim at killing just any palestinians ?), they simply lie about the truth : signing peace obviously implies fighting terrorist groups and they just can't unless facing a civil war, desobedience. Which would show the whole world that actually the palestinian people is not ready for peace.
So clearly to me, there's something to be done before envisioning peace : stop the media campaign against Israel in the arab/muslim medias, in the arab/muslim schoolbooks and more generally try to show that terror, fight, death and screws packed in a bomb are not an option.
Right now, all that can be reached, if peace is signed, giving birth to Palestine, is a short cease-fire. At the first occasion, terrorist groups won't hesitate to make a bombing in Israel, making them retaliate and here we go again. I don't think Israel, after signing peace, will make raids in Palestine just for fun.
When in a democratic society extremists are a minority, in the arab world for instance, extremists are NOT a minority and can you really sign peace with someone who calls peace a hudna ?
Just turn your back and he'll stab you. I don't want this to happen because once you decide to lower your weapon, the only thing you can be sure of is that if something bad happens, you'll be the one to die, not your enemy.
First educate children and the population in an other way, then we'll discuss peace, borders and water supplies.

[Dr Gang]

please post and correct me if I am wrong.

I will pleasurely :)


Golan Heights is technically owned by Syria but in fact fully controlled by Israel, right?
Same goes for the West Bank, but replace Syria with Egypt, right?
And the same goes for the Gaza strip, but replace Syria with Jordan?
I have also read somewhere that the city of Jerusalem also belonged to Jordan.
Furthermore, I have read that sometime in the 70s or 80s, not sure when, the king of Jordan receded the parts of Jordan which are under Israeli control to "the palestinian people", whoever they might be.


First thing you've got to know is that there's never been a fully recognized border by all sides in this conflict.

In 1947, when the UN partition plan has been proposed at the UN, only the israeli side signed it, the arabs rejected it. Syria, Egypt and Jordania already existed at that time so they had internationally recognized borders with this land to be shared between israelis and palestinians.
The 1947 plan do not establish the borders at their 1967 position. These two plans are different.
After the 1948 independance war, people were moved, mostly palestinians who fought alongside the arab countries and also some israelis. Can't blame the israelis for being more efficient at winning a war... Anyway, after that, Egypt took control of the Gaza strip, not planning to make a palestinian state there, letting the palestinians in refugee camp, in very harsh conditions, not that the egyptians all lived in palaces but the arab brothers fed the "palestinian" refugees with a feeling of frustration over the lands lost by the arab side. Not mentionning the frustration about simply losing a war to a numerically inferior opponent.
Cisjordania had been, at the same period, annexed by Jordania, Cisjordania included half of Jerusalem, what is currently called east Jerusalem. Jordania had a much fairer behavior toward their arab brothers by giving them the jordanian nationality (still no state). Palestinians though were tightly monitored by the security services since they tried several times to take over the country (black september, killing of the king and so on...). Coup happen quite a lot in these countries anyway, not a big deal...
At this moment, Israel was not recognized by the surrounding countries so the borders had nothing official. As far as arabs were concerned, there were no borders since there was no state of Israel. Israel neither considered the front lines as borders since they had no guarantee that war was over nor official recognition.
And indeed, recently, more like in the 90's, King Hussein did give up on the Cisjordania and gave "independance" to the people there.

Now, just a reminder for some people around here : There's an arab nationalism which has reasons to exist : culture, language in common.
There's been some attempt to create the unified arab republic between Syria and Egypt but it ended up badly, mostly because arabs can't even live peacefully among themselves, they've been more at war with their brothers than with Israel...
BUT, to say something like a palestinian nationalism has a right to exist is much less justified. If you compare the palestinian case to the kurdish case, where they have specific culture and language, you can see why a Kurdistan is nothing but fair and why a Palestine means nothing to me. The only reason they should get a country is that they are there and just can't get along with the israelis so whatever happens to this country, they should be parted.



Now, my solution is this: Take a country which is very strong military and not afraid to retaliate if they are attacked. This could be for instance the USA, or perhaps China. One might argue that China is not military strong, but I disagree. A country which can produce 300 million able-bodied soldiers between 20-30 years old is not to be underestimated.

Then: Launch a military operation to take control of Jerusalem. After it's been done, evacuate all the civilians from the city. Put them somewhere else, it does not rea

...

become too fond of life. And they can not claim that Jerusalem should belong to the arabs, because Jerusalem does not exist anymore.

I think I should send this to Chirac, he might be interested in this.

Amen !

But i think destroying al aqsa mosque would cause some "unrest" to put it mildly...

[ExtraT]

Maynard, I welcome the effort, but I'm afraid you have lots of misconceptions about the whole area.



Golan Heights is technically owned by Syria but in fact fully controlled by Israel, right?


Golan heights used to be owned by Syria. They were captured by Israel in the 1967 war. Israel annexed this territory, because it is vital to provide security to northern Israel, specifically aireal security.



Same goes for the West Bank, but replace Syria with Egypt, right?


The West Bank (Judeah and Samariah, specifically) were captured from Jordan in the 6-day war. They, however, have a different status than Golan heights - they were never annexed. The reason for that is, that there is a conciderable "palestinian" population on these territories. Annexing them would mean granting this population Israeli citizenship (as was done with the population of Golan Heghts), which would severely threaten Israel's political stability (since Israel is a democratic country). Of course, another option would have been deporting the population to Jordan, but it was decided against it.
The West Bank territory is EXTREMELY vital to Israeli security. For example, prior to 6-day war, the width of the central area of Israel was jusy 15km, and this area is the most densly populated (that's where Tel-Aviv is located). These territories provide the necessary strategic depth, which allows conducting of defensive military operations.
Generally speaking, prior to 1967 Israel could not defend against invasion in any way, except by launching a preemtive strike (which was done in 1967). Also, in light of new missile threats from countries like Iran and, in the past, Iraq, these territories are even more important - they house the necessary long-range radar systems that are used bythe Israeli missile defense system. This system can't function without this strategic depth. Generally speaking it's a technological marvel already, the so little dpeth is enough.



And the same goes for the Gaza strip, but replace Syria with Jordan?


Gaza strip was captured from Egypt, togeather with the Synai penninsula. There is almost no value in it for Israel, except for a dubious natural gas field. In fact, during the Israel-Egypt peace talks Israel propsed to return Gaza to Egypt, together with the Synai penninsula. They took only the pinninsula, even though there was no talk about a "palesinian state" at this time. I guess Egyptians don't like "palestinians" too much either. ;)



I have also read somewhere that the city of Jerusalem also belonged to Jordan.
Furthermore, I have read that sometime in the 70s or 80s, not sure when, the king of Jordan receded the parts of Jordan which are under Israeli control to "the palestinian people", whoever they might be.


How very generous of him to give up these territories when they are no longer under his control. :roll: Why didn't he do it before 1967? ANd why did he capture them in the first place, violating the UN partition in the process?

And now, to your plan. I'll be discussing only the more realistic points.

First of all, I would like to answer w widely known question: Why does Israel need nuclear weapons?
The answer is simple - to prevent any nation in the world from forcing a "final solution" on Israel. Israel has a a very strong military, but it, of course, can't effectively defend itself against a full-scale invasion by a super-power. It can, however, make the said super-power pay dearly for it. So, as a rule, you don't invade a country that has a nuclear arsinal - you can be misunderstood :)

Another misconception of your plan is, that the Arab-Israeli conflict is religious. Certainly, religious intolerance plays a vital propagandistic role (primarily for Arabs), but the root of the conflict is national. As such solving the seemingly religious points will not solve anything. This primarily concerns the question of Jerusalem: for Muslims Jerusalem is pretty much unimportant. It's importance has been artificially beefed up to provide a reason for the violence. If you remove that, another "holy place desecrated bu zionists" will magically spring up :)



Build an enormous wall around the Israeli borders.


A wall may protect against terrorist infiltration, but it will not protect against artillery and missiles. BTW, recently terrorist have been using artillery quite a lot.



When I write the Israeli borders I mean the pre-1967 borders.


These borders can be viable only in a situation of full acceptance of Israel by the Arab nations. Unfortunetely, this is impossible. Arab countries have, for the most part, totalitarian regimes. A totalitarian country CAN'T live in peace with it's neighbours. And I doubt that any of them can be changed into stable democracies any time soon.



Why Russia you ask? Well, I think it's time they actually paid something back for all those huge loans they took during the 70's, 80's and the 90's.


90's - yes, but 70's and 80's? :) If anything, some of the countries in the area are themselves severely in debt to Russia. For example, Syria got most of it's weapons for free from Russia, Iraq is in debt for 7 billion dollars, etc..



Now, politics. The first thing to do is to put Arafat in jail.

Now, with that I can agree. Add to that a complete disbanding of his organizations, and a trial for crimes against humanity, and I will be extatic.
Oh, and an apology from the UN for legitimizing this professional murderer, togeather with reparations wouldn't hurt.



Then have the russians give him 2 billion US $.


You don't even need Russians for that. It is estimated that Arafat has several billion dollars that he stole from his own people in hidden accounts. You can take the money from there.



...lend him troops and let him use them to kill all those god damned terrorist-groups.


I'm afraid you can't run an election before oblitirating the terrorism. These groups have a VERY tight grip on the population, and are mostly funded from the outside. Primary sources of funding are typically Iran, Syria, Saudy Arabia, and the western Arab communities (especially European). BTW, by properly dealing with those groups you will also aliminate most of the world terrorism in the process. Neat eh?

[One?]

sweet israelis finaly saying what they want.

-Destroy the aqsa mosque.
-Kick all the arabs out.

and then when arabs say that they call them liars. tsk tsk tsk :cantbeli:

[TALOS]

sweet israelis finaly saying what they want.

-Destroy the aqsa mosque.
-Kick all the arabs out.

and then when arabs say that they call them liars. tsk tsk tsk :cantbeli:

I get the impression that maynard isnt israeli, and as a side point, Israelis as a whole arent saying that, one person from sweden did, and one person agreed with part of it. A little different then 40 nations calling for the complete annihalation of a people.
Also, I am curious, but I understand that most arab countries removed the Jews and refuse them entry?

[S'13]

Also, I am curious, but I understand that most arab countries removed the Jews and refuse them entry?

True, during 1940's through 1950's nearly ALL the Jews had to flee from Arab countries to avoid persecution and pogroms. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab countries is estimated to be a million. This number is greater than the number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948, estimated as 500,000.

[UoUo]

sweet israelis finaly saying what they want.

-Destroy the aqsa mosque.
-Kick all the arabs out.

and then when arabs say that they call them liars. tsk tsk tsk :cantbeli:

LOL

When you will stop thinking that we want your mosques....

[One?]

Also, I am curious, but I understand that most arab countries removed the Jews and refuse them entry?

True, during 1940's through 1950's nearly ALL the Jews had to flee from Arab countries to avoid persecution and pogroms. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab countries is estimated to be a million. This number is greater than the number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948, estimated as 500,000.

Jews from arab countries left ON THEIR OWN, so did the jews from europe so they can live in their new homeland.

jews still live in Iran, Yemen, Moroco, Syria etc...

The ones in lebanon might of been the only ones who fled to avoid the civil war, although there are still some jews under hidden identities.

[UoUo]

48 arabs didn't force to leave thier homes...

And btw..if you knew how the jews lived in your countries....tsk tsk...

[One?]

48 arabs didn't force to leave thier homes...

And btw..if you knew how the jews lived in your countries....tsk tsk...

they lived like anyone else and they still live.

[S'13]

Also, I am curious, but I understand that most arab countries removed the Jews and refuse them entry?

True, during 1940's through 1950's nearly ALL the Jews had to flee from Arab countries to avoid persecution and pogroms. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab countries is estimated to be a million. This number is greater than the number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948, estimated as 500,000.

Jews from arab countries left ON THEIR OWN, so did the jews from europe so they can live in their new homeland.

jews still live in Iran, Yemen, Moroco, Syria etc...

The ones in lebanon might of been the only ones who fled to avoid the civil war, although there are still some jews under hidden identities.

True, but most left as I wrote above because they feared for their lives. The same could be said about the Palestinians who left Israel also on their own and planed to return after the 1948 war was over and the Jews would be "taken care of" by the Arab countries.

[UoUo]

48 arabs didn't force to leave thier homes...

And btw..if you knew how the jews lived in your countries....tsk tsk...

they lived like anyone else and they still live.

Do you have jews NON brainwahsed friend from arab countries ?

[One?]

48 arabs didn't force to leave thier homes...

And btw..if you knew how the jews lived in your countries....tsk tsk...

they lived like anyone else and they still live.

Do you have jews NON brainwahsed friend from arab countries ?

sorry, I dont understand what you're trying to say.

Are you saying jews living there are brainwashed?

[UoUo]

48 arabs didn't force to leave thier homes...

And btw..if you knew how the jews lived in your countries....tsk tsk...

they lived like anyone else and they still live.

Do you have jews NON brainwahsed friend from arab countries ?

sorry, I dont understand what you're trying to say.

Are you saying jews living there are brainwashed?

No...i am saying that you don't have jewish friend that lived in arab Countries..and told you how is to kive there.

*the brainwashed part was for later...you will see how it will come later*

[One?]

I never met any jews in lebanon, because if there are jews they are under different identities (as i said before). But I have jewish friends from europe.

[UoUo]

My friend family lived in Lybia...they left there 2 cars....shop...and a house...just like the "poor" arabs from 48...

[S'13]

48 arabs didn't force to leave thier homes...

And btw..if you knew how the jews lived in your countries....tsk tsk...

they lived like anyone else and they still live.



JEWS IN SYRIA BEFORE 1948
The last Jews who wanted to leave Syria departed with the chief rabbi in October 1994. Prior to 1947, there were some 30,000 Jews made up of three distinct communities, each with its own traditions: the Kurdish-speaking Jews of Kamishli, the Jews of Aleppo with roots in Spain, and the original eastern Jews of Damascus, called Must'arab. Today only a tiny remnant of these communities remains.

The Jewish presence in Syria dates back to biblical times and is intertwined with the history of Jews in neighboring Eretz Israel. With the advent of Christianity, restrictions were imposed on the community. The Arab conquest in 636 A.D, however, greatly improved the lot of the Jews. Unrest in neighboring Iraq in the 10th century resulted in Jewish migration to Syria and brought about a boom in commerce, banking, and crafts. During the reign of the Fatimids, the Jew Menashe Ibrahim El-Kazzaz ran the Syrian administration, and he granted Jews positions in the government.

Syrian Jewry supported the aspirations of the Arab nationalists and Zionism, and Syrian Jews believed that the two parties could be reconciled and that the conflict in Palestine could be resolved. However, following Syrian independence from France in 1946, attacks against Jews and their property increased, culminating in the pogroms of 1947, which left all shops and synagogues in Aleppo in ruins. Thousands of Jews fled the country, and their homes and property were taken over by the local Muslims.

For the next decades, Syrian Jews were, in effect, hostages of a hostile regime. They could leave Syria only on the condition that they leave members of their family behind. Thus the community lived under siege, constantly under fearful surveillance of the secret police. This much was allowed due to an international effort to secure the human rights of the Jews.

JEWS IN EGYPT PRIOR TO 1948
Jews have lived in Egypt since Biblical times, and the conditions of the community have constantly fluctuated with the political situation of the land. Israelite tribes first moved to the Land of Goshen (the northeastern edge of the Nile Delta) during the reign of the Egyptian pharaoh Amenhotep IV (1375-1358 B.C).

During the reign of Ramses II (1298-1232 B.C), they were enslaved for the Pharaoh's building projects. His successor, Merneptah, continued the same anti-Jewish policies, and around the year 1220 B.C, the Jews revolted and escaped across the Sinai to Canaan. This is the biblical Exodus commemorated in the holiday of Passover. Over the years, many Jews in Eretz Israel who were not deported to Babylon sought shelter in Egypt, among them the prophet Jeremiah. By 1897 there were more than 25,000 Jews in Egypt, concentrated in Cairo and Alexandria. In 1937 the population reached a peak of 63,500.

Friedman wrote in "The Myth of Arab Tolerance", "One Caliph, Al-Hakem of the Fatimids devised particularly insidious humiliations for the Jews in his attempt to perform what he deemed his roll as "Redeemer of mankind", first the Jews were forced to wear miniature golden calf images around their necks, as though they still worshipped the golden calf, but the Jews refused to convert. Next they wore bells, and after that six pound wooden blocks were hung around their necks. In fury at his failure, the Caliph had the Cairo Jewish quarter destroyed, along with it's Jewish residence, in".

In 1945, with the rise of Egyptian nationalism and the cultivation of anti-Western and anti-Jewish sentiment, riots erupted. In the violence, 10 Jews were killed, 350 injured, and a synagogue, a Jewish hospital, and an old-age home were burned down. The establishment of the State of Israel led to still further anti-Jewish feeling: Between June and November 1948, bombs set off in the Jewish Quarter killed more than 70 Jews and wounded nearly 200. 2,000 Jews were arrested and many had their property confiscated. Rioting over the next few months resulted in many more Jewish deaths. Between June and November 1948, bombs set off in the Jewish Quarter killed more than 70 Jews and wounded nearly 200.

Jews In 1956, the Egyptian government used the Sinai Campaign as a pretext for expelling almost 25,000 Egyptian Jews and confiscating their property. Approximately 1,000 more Jews were sent to prisons and detention camps. On November 23, 1956, a proclamation signed by the Minister of Religious Affairs, and read aloud in mosques throughout Egypt, declared that "all Jews are Zionists and enemies of the state," and promised that they would be soon expelled.

Thousands of Jews were ordered to leave the country. They were allowed to take only one suitcase and a small sum of cash, and forced to sign declarations "donating" their property to the Egyptian government. Foreign observers reported that members of Jewish families were taken hostage, apparently to insure that those forced to leave did not speak out against the Egyptian government. AP, (November 26 and 29th 1956); New York World Telegram).

By 1957 it had fallen to 15,000. In 1967, after the Six-Day War, there was a renewed wave of persecution, and the community dropped to 2,500. By the 1970s, after the remaining Jews were given permission to leave the country, the community dwindled to a few families. Nearly all the Jews in Egypt are elderly, and the community is on the verge of extinction.

JEWS IN IRAQ PRIOR TO 1948
The Iraqi Jews took pride in their distinguished Jewish community, with it's history of scholarship and dignity. Jews had prospered in what was then Babylonia for 1200 years before the Muslim conquest in AD 634; it was not until the 9th century that Dhimmi laws such as the yellow patch, heavy head tax, and residence restriction enforced. Capricious and extreme oppression under some Arab caliphs and Momlukes brought taxation amounting to expropriation in AD 1000, and 1333 the persecution culminated in pillage and destruction of the Bagdad Sanctuary. in 1776, there was a slaughter of Jews at Bosra, and in bitterness of anti Jewish measures taken Muslim rulers in the 18th century caused many Jews to flea.

The Iraqi Jewish community is one of the oldest in the world and has a great history of learning and scholarship. Abraham, the father of the Jewish people, was born in Ur of the Chaldees, in southern Mesopotamia, now Iraq, around 2,000 A.D. The community traces its history back to 6th century A.D, when Nebuchadnezzar conquered Judea and sent most of the population into exile in Babylonia.

The community also maintained strong ties with the Land of Israel and, with the aid of rabbis from Israel, succeeded in establishing many prominent rabbinical academies. By the 3rd century, Babylonia became the center of Jewish scholarship, as is attested to by the community's most influential creation, the Babylonian Talmud.

Under Muslim rule, beginning in the 7th century, the situation of the community fluctuated. Many Jews held high positions in government or prospered in commerce and trade. At the same time, Jews were subjected to special taxes, restrictions on their professional activity, and anti-Jewish incitement among the masses.

Under British rule, which began in 1917, Jews fared well economically, and many were elected to government posts. This traditionally observant community was also allowed to found Zionist organizations and to pursue Hebrew studies. All of this progress ended when Iraq gained independence in 1932.

In June 1941, the Mufti-inspired, pro-Nazi coup of Rashid Ali sparked rioting and a pogrom in Baghdad. Armed Iraqi mobs, with the complicity of the police and the army, murdered 180 Jews and wounded almost 1,000.

Although emigration was prohibited, many Jews made their way to Israel during this period with the aid of an underground movement. In 1950 the Iraqi parliament finally legalized emigration to Israel, and between May 1950 and August 1951, the Jewish Agency and the Israeli government succeeded in airlifting approximately 110,000 Jews to Israel in Operations Ezra and Nehemiah. This figure includes 18,000 Kurdish Jews, who have many distinct traditions. Thus a community that had reached a peak of 150,000 in 1947 dwindled to a mere 6,000 after 1951.

Additional outbreaks of anti-Jewish rioting occurred between 1946-49. After the establishment of Israel in 1948, Zionism became a capital crime.

JEWS IN IRAQ AFTER 1948
In 1950, Iraqi Jews were permitted to leave the country within a year provided they forfeited their citizenship. A year later, however, the property of Jews who emigrated was frozen and economic restrictions were placed on Jews who chose to remain in the country. From 1949 to 1951, 104,000 Jews were evacuated from Iraq in Operations Ezra and Nehemiah; another 20,000 were smuggled out through Iran. In 1952, Iraq's government barred Jews from emigrating and publicly hanged two Jews after falsely charging them with hurling a bomb at the Baghdad office of the U.S. Information Agency.

With the rise of competing Ba'ath factions in 1963, additional restrictions were placed on the remaining Iraqi Jews. The sale of property was forbidden and all Jews were forced to carry yellow identity cards. After the Six-Day War, more repressive measures were imposed: Jewish property was expropriated; Jewish bank accounts were frozen; Jews were dismissed from public posts; businesses were shut; trading permits were cancelled; telephones were disconnected. Jews were placed under house arrest for long periods of time or restricted to the cities.

Persecution was at its worst at the end of 1968. Scores were jailed upon the discovery of a local "spy ring" composed of Jewish businessmen. Fourteen men-eleven of them Jews-were sentenced to death in staged trials and hanged in the public squares of Baghdad; others died of torture. On January 27, 1969, Baghdad Radio called upon Iraqis to "come and enjoy the feast." Some 500,000 men, women and children paraded and danced past the scaffolds where the bodies of the hanged Jews swung; the mob rhythmically chanted "Death to Israel" and "Death to all traitors." This display brought a world-wide public outcry that Radio Baghdad dismissed by declaring: "We hanged spies, but the Jews crucified Christ." (Judith Miller and Laurie Mylroie, Saddam Hussein and the Crisis in the Gulf, p. 34).

Jews remained under constant surveillance by the Iraqi government. Max Sawadayee, in "All Waiting to be Hanged" writes a testimony of an Iraqi Jew (who later escaped): "The dehumanization of the Jewish personality resulting from continuous humiliation and torment...have dragged us down to the lowest level of our physical and mental faculties, and deprived us of the power to recover.".

In response to international pressure, the Baghdad government quietly allowed most of the remaining Jews to emigrate in the early 1970's, even while leaving other restrictions in force. Most of Iraq's remaining Jews are now too old to leave. They have been pressured by the government to turn over title, without compensation, to more than $200 million worth of Jewish community property. (New York Times, February 18, 1973).

Only one synagogue continues to function in Iraq, "a crumbling buff-colored building tucked away in an alleyway" in Baghdad. According to the synagogue's administrator, "there are few children to be bar-mitzvahed, or couples to be married. Jews can practice their religion but are not allowed to hold jobs in state enterprises or join the army." (New York Times Magazine, February 3, 1985).

In 1991, prior to the Gulf War, the State Department said "there is no recent evidence of overt persecution of Jews, but the regime restricts travel, (particularly to Israel) and contacts with Jewish groups abroad.".

Persecutions continued, especially after the Six-Day War in 1967, when many of the remaining 3,000 Jews were arrested and dismissed from their jobs. Finally In Iraq all the Jews were forced to leave between 1948 and 1952 and leave everything behind. Jews were publicly hanged in the center of Baghdad with enthusiastic mob as audience.

The Jews were persecuted throughout the centuries in all the Arabic speaking countries. One time, Baghdad was one-fifth Jewish and other communities had first been established 2,500 years ago. Today, approximately 61 Jews are left in Baghdad and another 200 or so are in Kurdish areas in the north. Only one synagogue remains in Bataween, - once Baghdad's main Jewish neighborhood.- The rabbi died in 1996 and none of the remaining Jews can perform the liturgy and only a couple know Hebrew. (Associated Press, March 28, 1998).

JEWS IN MOROCCO PRIOR TO 1948
The Jewish community of present-day Morocco dates back more than 2,000 years. There were Jewish people in the country before it became a Roman province. in 1032 AD, 6000 Jews were murdered. Indeed the greatest persecution by the Arabs towards the Jews was in Fez, Morocco, nothing was worse than the slaughter of 120,000 Jews in 1146. In 1391 a wave of Jewish refugees expelled from Spain brought new life to the community, as did new arrivals from Spain and Portugal in 1492 and 1497. From 1438, the Jews of Fez were forced to live in special quarters called mellahs, a name derived from the Arabic word for salt because the Jews in Morocco were forced to carry out the job of salting the heads of executed prisoners prior to their public display. Chouraqui sums it up when he wrote: "such restriction and humiliation as to exceed anything in Europe". Charles de Foucauld in 1883 who was not generally sympathetic to Jews writes of the Jews: "They are the most unfortunate of men, every Jew belongs body and soul to his seigneur, the sid [Arab master]". Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.

JEWS IN MOROCCO AFTER 1948.
In June 1948, bloody riots in Oujda and Djerada killed 44 Jews and wounded scores more. That same year, an unofficial economic boycott was instigated against Moroccan Jews. In 1956, Morocco declared its independence, In 1963, more then 100,000 Moroccan Jews were forced out and went to Israel.

JEWS IN YEMEN PRIOR TO 1948
In Yemen from the seventh century on the Jewish populations suffered the severest possible interpretation of the Charter of Omar. For about 4 centuries, the Jews suffered under the fierce fanatical edict of the most intolerant Islamic sects. The Yemen Epistle by Rambam in which he commiserated with Yemen's Jewry and besought them to keep the faith, and in 1724 fanatical rulers ordered synagogues destroyed, and Jewish public prayers were forbidden. The Jews were exiled, many died from starvation and the survivors were ordered to settle in Mausa, but later, this order was annulled by a decree in 1781 due to the need of their skilled craftsmen. Jacob Sappir a Jerusalem writer describes Yemeni Jews in Yemen in 1886: "The Arab natives have always considered the Jew unclean, but his blood for them was not considered unclean. They lay claims to all his belongings, and if he is unwilling, they employ force...The Jews live outside the town in dark dwellings like prison cells or caves out of fear...for the least offense, he is sentenced to outrageous fines, which he is quite unable to pay. In case of non-payment, he is put in chains and cruelly beaten every day. Before the punishment is inflicted, the Cadi[judge] addresses him in gentle tones and urges him to change his faith and obtain a share of all the glory of this world and of the world beyond. His refusal is again regarded as penal obstinacy. On the other hand, it is not open to the Jew to prosecute a Muslim, as the Muslim by right of law can dispose of the life and the property of the Jew, and it is only to be regarded as an act of magnanimity if the Jews are allowed to live. The Jew is not admissible as a witness, nor has his oath any validity.". Danish-German explorer Garsten Neibuhr visited Yemen in 1762 described Jewish life in Yemen: "By day they work in their shops in San'a, but by night they must withdraw to their isolated dwellings, shortly before my arrival, 12 of the 14 synagogues of the Jews were torn down, and all their beautiful houses wrecked". The Jews did not improve until the establishment of the French Protectorate in 1912, when they were given equality and religious autonomy. In 1922, the government of Yemen reintroduced an ancient Islamic law that decreed that Jewish orphans under age 12 were to be forcibly converted to Islam. In 1947, after the partition vote, Muslim rioters, joined by the local police force, engaged in a bloody pogrom in Aden that killed 82 Jews and destroyed hundreds of Jewish homes. Aden's Jewish community was economically paralyzed, as most of the Jewish stores and businesses were destroyed. Early in 1948, looting occurred after six Jews were falsely accused of the ritual murder of two Arab girls. (Howard Sachar, A History of Israel). 50,000 Jews were kicked out of Yemen in 1948.

JEWS IN TUNISIA PRIOR TO 1948
The first documented evidence of Jews in this area dates back to 200 A.D and demonstrates the existence of a community in Latin Carthage under Roman rule. Latin Carthage contained a significant Jewish presence, and several sages mentioned in the Talmud lived in this area from the 2nd to the 4th centuries. During the Byzantine period, the condition of the community took a turn for the worse. An edict issued by Justinian in 535 excluded Jews from public office, prohibited Jewish practice, and resulted in the transformation of synagogues into churches. Many fled to the Berber communities in the mountains and in the desert. After the Arab conquest of Tunisia in the 7th century, Jews lived under satisfactory conditions, despite discriminatory measures such as a poll tax. From 7th century Arab conquest down through the Almahdiyeen atrocities, Tunisia fared little better than its neighbors. The complete expulsion of Jews from Kairouan near Tunis occurred after years of hardship, in the 13 century when Kairouan was anointed as a holy city of Islam. In the 16th century, the "hated and despised" Jews of Tunis were periodically attacked by violence and they were subjected to "vehement anti-Jewish policy" during the various political struggles of the period. In 1869 Muslims butchered many Jews in the defenseless ghetto. Conditions worsened during the Spanish invasions of 1535-1574, resulting in the flight of Jews from the coastal areas. The situation of the community improved once more under Ottoman rule. During this period, the community also split due to strong cultural differences between the Touransa (native Tunisians) and the Grana (those adhering to Spanish or Italian customs). Jews suffered once more in 1956, when the country achieved independence. The rabbinical tribunal was abolished in 1957, and a year later, Jewish community councils were dissolved. In addition, the Jewish quarter of Tunis was destroyed by the government. Anti-Jewish rioting followed the outbreak of the Six-Day War; Muslims burned down the Great Synagogue of Tunis. These events increased the steady stream of emigration.

JEWS IN LIBYA PRIOR TO 1948.
The Jewish community of Libya traces its origin back to the 3rd century B.C Under Roman rule, Jews prospered. In 73 A.D, a zealot from Israel, Jonathan the Weaver, incited the poor of the community in Cyrene to revolt. The Romans reacted with swift vengeance, murdering him and his followers and executing other wealthy Jews in the community. This revolt foreshadowed that of 115 A.D, which broke out not only in Cyrene, but in Egypt and Cyprus as well. In 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews.With the Italian occupation of Libya in 1911, the situation remained good and the Jews made great strides in education. At that time, there were about 21,000 Jews in the country, the majority in Tripoli. In the late 1930s, Fascist anti-Jewish laws were gradually enforced, and Jews were subject to terrible repression. Still, by 1941, the Jews accounted for a quarter of the population of Tripoli and maintained 44 synagogues. In 1942 the Germans occupied the Jewish quarter of Benghazi, plundered shops, and deported more than 2,000 Jews across the desert, where more than one-fifth of them perished. Many Jews from Tripoli were also sent to forced labor camps. Conditions did not greatly improve following the liberation. During the British occupation, there was a series of pogroms, the worst of which, in 1945, resulted in the deaths of more than 100 Jews in Tripoli and other towns and the destruction of five synagogues. The establishment of the State of Israel, led many Jews to leave the country. A savage pogrom in Tripoli on November 5, 1945 were more than 140 Jews were massacred and almost every synagogue looted. (Howard Sachar, A History of Israel).In June 1948, rioters murdered another 12 Jews and destroyed 280 Jewish homes. Thousands of Jews fled the country after Libya was granted independence and membership in the Arab League in 1951. (Norman Stillman, The Jews of Arab Lands in Modern Times). After the Six-Day War, the Jewish population of 7,000 was again subjected to pogroms in which 18 were killed, and many more injured, sparking a near-total exodus that left fewer than 100 Jews in Libya. When Col. Qaddafi came to power in 1969, all Jewish property was confiscated and all debts to Jews cancelled. Today, no Jews are believed to live in Libya. Although emigration was illegal, more than 3,000 Jews succeeded to leave to Israel. When the British legalized emigration in 1949, more than 30,000 Jews fled Libya. At the time of Colonel Qaddafi's coup in 1969, some 500 Jews remained in Libya. Qaddafi subsequently confiscated all Jewish property and cancelled all debts owed to Jews. By 1974 there were no more than 20 Jews, and it is believed that the Jewish presence has passed out of existence.

JEWS IN ALGERIA PRIOR TO 1948
Jewish settlement in present-day Algeria can be traced back to the first centuries of the Common Era. In the 14th century, with the deterioration of conditions in Spain, many Spanish Jews moved to Algeria. Among them were a number of outstanding scholars, including the Ribash and the Rashbatz. After the French occupation of the country in 1830, Jews gradually adopted French culture and were granted French citizenship. On the eve of the civil war that gripped the country in the late 1950s, there were some 130,000 Jews in Algeria, approximately 30,000 of whom lived in the capital. Nearly all Algerian Jews fled the country shortly after it gained independence from France in 1962. Most of the remaining Jews live in Algiers, but there are individual Jews in Oran and Blida. A single synagogue functions in Algiers, although there is no resident rabbi. All other synagogues have been taken over for use as mosques. In 1934, a Nazi-incited pogrom in Constantine left 25 Jews dead and scores injured. After being granted independence in 1962, the Algerian government harassed the Jewish community and deprived Jews of their principle economic rights. 150,000 Jews were forced out of Algeria when France left Algeria.

[Dr Gang]

sweet israelis finaly saying what they want.

-Destroy the aqsa mosque.
-Kick all the arabs out.

and then when arabs say that they call them liars. tsk tsk tsk :cantbeli:

Wasn't Maynard intervention just a joke, from A to Z ?
For me it was an occasion to point at some territorial facts.
If you really thought this was all serious, One, mmmh i'm afraid this whole story got to your head...
And about al aqsa, let's just remind everyone around there was the jewish temple there, right under the spot where the mosque was built. Funny coincidence huh ? Seems like the respect for holy places (how many do you have anyway, maybe the Paris mosque is the 153th most holy place in islam too...) you demand, you don't seem to show it to those who were previously there ! Just to be precise, the temple wasn't destroyed by arabs but romans.
Keep the mosque anyway, i don't really care, if that's what it take for peace.
And don't be dumb, what would it mean to keep a big arab community, knowing they'll eventually take over demographically while you try to secure a jewish state ? Wanting a palestinian state but at the same time staying in Israel and making kids and kids and kids is not a crime, it's just hypocrisy and dishonesty. We already saw what arabs did with the countries they had, i don't want this to happen to Israel too...



Jews from arab countries left ON THEIR OWN, so did the jews from europe so they can live in their new homeland.

jews still live in Iran, Yemen, Moroco, Syria etc...

The ones in lebanon might of been the only ones who fled to avoid the civil war, although there are still some jews under hidden identities.


they left on their own, what do you mean ? When do you start to call this an expulsion ? Only when there's a gun to your head ? Or when racists laws, street bashings, property confiscation happen ?
Cause that's what happened to them, actually to my parents. They left there a house, a factory, a shop, money, everything they had except some clothes. They came to France and rebuilt their whole life here, successfully, from scratch. This is what i call an education ! Some values that let you succeed because you know that hard work always pay, unlike some who depend on social welfare though they're here for decades too...
Jews still live in Iran, Yemen ? Well, elephants still live in Africa but that doesn't mean they're safe from ivory smugglers... There are a handful of jews left there ! Only in Morocco were jews always welcome, only.
Why do you try to transform reality ? I mean, can you say here and now that jews are welcome in arab countries, that they never had to flee the very same countries 50 years ago ? I mean, it's almost negationism !

In the end, it comes down to this : how come i acknowledge the fact some palestinians fled their homes because of the independance war and how come you deny the expulsion of jews from arab countries at the same period ?
Why is it that a side can tell stories, can write books and make researches about some events that are not advantageous for them but still place intellectual honesty above self-interest while the other can't ?
Here again, we have an illustration of an other form of jew/arab clash of culture.

[Mr. Nielsen]

Many people are quite confused on the issue of geography and history in that area. So just in case I will also answer Maynard's geographic questions.



Golan Heights is technically owned by Syria but in fact fully controlled by Israel, right?

The Golan Height's is part of Syria, but has been occupied by Israel since 1967. Israel says they have annexed it. This annexation is, like Iraq's annexation of Kuwait, accepted by no other states.



Same goes for the West Bank, but replace Syria with Egypt, right?

The UN partition plan gave the entire west bank to the Palestinians, but Jordan occupied it in 1948, then by Israel in 1967. Now Jordan has given up their (illegal) claim for the west bank.

[Mr. Nielsen]

And the same goes for the Gaza strip, but replace Syria with Jordan?


Belongs to the Palestinians. Occupied by Egypt in 1948. Occupied by Israel since 1967.



I have also read somewhere that the city of Jerusalem also belonged to Jordan.

According to the UN partition plan, Jerusalem was to be an international city. But Israel and Jordan split it in 1948. From 1967 Israel have occupied East Jerusalem. And Israel annexed East Jerusalem in 1980, but this is not accepted by any other states either.

[ExtraT]

Many people are quite confused on the issue of geography and history in that area.


And some people just lie.




The Golan Height's is part of Syria, but has been occupied by Israel since 1967. Israel says they have annexed it. This annexation is, like Iraq's annexation of Kuwait, accepted by no other states.


There you go. An example how a "small" lie can be hidden in a seemingly accurate statement. So, according to you, annexation of Golan heights by Israel is comparable to annexation of Kuwait by Iraq? Also, according to you, 6-day war was an Israeli aggression, right? Rewriting history today, are we?



The UN partition plan gave the entire west bank to the Palestinians


I'm sorry, but UN partition didn't give any land to "palestinians", because "palestenians" did not exist at the time. The land was given to Arabs, and the state was supposed to be called "Arab state". And don't say that this doesn't matter, because it does.

Small subtle lies like these ones are much more dangerous than big fat ones like "One" is spreading.

[Dr Gang]

An illustration of what i described in my previous post just happened :

9th of january, ease of restrictions on workers from Gaza working in the israeli industrial zone close to the border. 15000 were to be allowed to enter Israel to work.

14th of january, at the Erez border checkpoint opening on the above-mentionned industrial zone, suicide terrorist attack.

Right after the bombing, the checkpoint has been closed and all palestinians sent back home without the money they'd have if this hadn't happened.

[UkrainianAmerican]

An illustration of what i described in my previous post just happened :

9th of january, ease of restrictions on workers from Gaza working in the israeli industrial zone close to the border. 15000 were to be allowed to enter Israel to work.

14th of january, at the Erez border checkpoint opening on the above-mentionned industrial zone, suicide terrorist attack.

Right after the bombing, the checkpoint has been closed and all palestinians sent back home without the money they'd have if this hadn't happened.
Its the JOOOOOOOOOZ fault, how many times does Mustamato, Nielsen and One have to tell you that?!?!?
/sarcasm